morning. "morning joe" starts right now hear me now, for soon i will leave you and join my father in heaven. >> we cannot lose you, jesus we will protect you. >> we will never leave you. >> one of you will betray me. >> no, not i. >> what? >> it is foretold. though i have committed no crime, i will be arrested, tried, and found guilty. >> sound familiar? thank you so much. a famous, wonderful man arrested for no reason at all if you haven't put it together, folks, i'm comparing myself to jesus again. and what better time than on his birthday, easter >> wow, wow. >> oh, my lord. >> that's too close to reality, actually "saturday night live's" james

austin johnson with a spot-on impersonation of donald trump, and interrupting the last supper nearly a week after trump's historic arraign marraignment, s showing more americans agree with the charges. >> up 5% this week. >> his former attorney general is predicting another indictment for the former president we'll get into that straight ahead. we're also going to dig into the competing rulings from federal judges on a commonly used drug for medical abortions. the impact on women's health care and the political impact on the republican party >> by the way, mika, you know -- >> let's just say, it's not good. >> -- based on conversations we've had with friends and others that have voted for donald trump, this is really -- it's more bad political news, obviously, for women's rights, but especially for republicans i've got to say, i was really

taken, and i've been taken over the last week especially, of people who have been trump supporters for a long time. >> yeah. >> who you start talking, they're exhausted, ready to move on there's stories in the paper about this. >> yeah. >> then you bring up abortion. for those who may not be completely exhausted with him, they bring up abortion now, the pill, those rulings coming this weekend. my gosh, it's really wisconsin and tennessee, now this. i can't overstate, just politically, regardless of whether you are pro life or pro choice, i can't overstate how bad this is for the republican party politically. >> it's not just women, it's men, as well, on this issue. pro life women saying, "wait a minute, this is ridiculous." i am seeing, in real time, women's health being impacted by

the inability to have access to abortion or anything like it. >> it goes back to -- and we talk about it all the time i remember when john heilemann and mark halperin had, in 2016, that bloomberg focus group you had a group of working class americans in the midwest who, when they talked about donald trump, they said, "he's one of us." that was the first time, and it was jarring and shocking that this billionaire celebrity was, quote, one of them, was seen that way i keep going back to what elise jordan's focus group this year, where we had the supporter, the conspiracy theorist. you go down one issue after another, and he was all in, all in on stolen elections, all in on conspiracy theories then elise said, "what about abortion, roe v. wade being overturned?" he said, "that's none of my business." >> the georgia voter. >> i didn't know if it was a

one-off or not. >> it's not. >> it's all over america it's people that have been republicans their entire life, that have voted for donald trump, who are really -- again, we're also going to be talking about how this used to be a 50/50 issue. "politico" reporting it is now republican quick sand. the quick sand quickened more this past weekend. >> absolutely. >> this is the last thing that republicans wanted to happen, that are actually looking toward next year's elections and whether they're going to be able to win a national election again. also ahead, the latest from tennessee on the efforts to reappoint the two democratic lawmakers who were expelled from the republican-controlled statehouse we'll also get a live report from beijing as china ramps up military drills in response to house speaker kevin mccarthy's bipartisan meeting with taiwan's president. with us, we have the host of msnbc's "politics nation" and president of the national action

network, reverend al sharpton. member of "the new york times" editorial board, mara gay is with us this morning also with us, founder of the conservative website, the bul bulwark, and author of "how the right lost its mind," charlie sykes. rogers chair and professor at vanderbilt, jon meacham. former communications to the white house, jen palmieri, also co-host of "the circus." good group this morning. the supreme court could take up another abortion case. on friday, a judge in texas overturned fda approval for the most commonly used abortion pill while a judge in washington state protected that same drug nbc news correspondent, white house correspondent, allie raffa, has the latest. >> reporter: battle lines drawn.

>> i'm very worried about women who need this medication. >> we apply the judge's actions, issued a stay on the chemical abortion drug. >> reporter: after the most consequential abortion ruling since the reversal of roe v. wade a texas federal judge suspending fda approval of the most commonly used abortion pill, giving the federal government seven days to appeal before the ruling goes into effect. >> we intend to do everything to make sure it is available to them, not just in a week but moving forward, period. >> reporter: health and human services secretary xavier becerra vowing the biden administration is considering all legal options. >> well, we've already filed an appeal of this court's ruling. >> reporter: the issue will likely be decided by the supreme court after a federal judge in washington state ruled to protect the drug in more than a dozen states one republican lawmaker threatening cuts to fda funding if the white house fights the texas ruling >> there may come a point where house republicans on the

appropriations side have to defund fda programs that don't make sense. >> reporter: some health care providers are stockpiling the pill, fearing an all out ban while some democrats urge the biden administration to go even further. >> i believe that the biden administration should ignore this ruling. it is up to the biden administration to enforce, to choose whether or not to enforce such a ruling. >> reporter: hhs secretary be se beccera not committing to that specific option. >> every option is on the table. >> let's break dhthis down. abortion was a 50/50 issue now, it's quicksand. steven shepherd writes, in part, conservatives are finding out the hard way that abortion isn't a 50/50 issue anymore. janet protasiewicz's 11-point

blowout victory for a state preem court seat in wisconsin was the latest example of supporters who support abortion rights youltsoutnumbering and outvoting their opponents. the dobbs decision last year exposed americas' broad opposition of the zriktstrict abortion bans. after wisconsin defeat, along with the numerous others, including abortion-related ballot measures in red states, such a strict prohibition runs headlong into national public opinion. and it raises the question how, if at all, are republicans going to find a message that puts the party more in line with the median voter the roe v. wade framework making abortion mostly legal but allowing states to impose modest restrictions is where the majority of american voters are. from the midterms to wisconsin, potentially to the 2024 elections, they are continuing to punish the party that is

straying furthest from that. >> and "the wall street journal" editorial page, who last week told republicans, you need to get abortion right at the same time that you have people like ann coulter saying, "republicans, you have to get sane on abortion or you are going to keep losing elections." this is what "the wall street journal" editorial page said today. there's a political gift to democrats that they want to keep giving, which explains why they almost were gleefully furious on friday after a texas judge overruled the fda's approval of the abortion pill. a conflicting order by a lower court means the supreme court will be handling the issue again. the court's dobbs decision last summer ended ab handed abortione states, but what is left, they're trying to nationalize the courts the justices in dobbs sought to extricate themselves from regulating abortion, but partisans on both sides don't want to let them anyway, it goes on and on.

this is a long way charlie sykes, i'll go to you. the kicker here is, "wall street journal" editorial page, for i think the second time in three weekday editions, are telling republicans, you've got abortion wrong. you're going too extreme on abortion it is going to keep costing you elections. here, they say, courts should stay out of what the fda does. regulating drugs isn't the business of the courts any more than abortion is "wall street journal" editorial page char e charlie, i come to you first, only because i know your experience is like mine. you probably live with or are surrounded by, go to the grocery store and see, go everywhere you go, and see trump voters, republicans, that's everywhere i go man, the last two, three, four weeks, what ma massive change i've hearing it from family,

from friends, from everybody a sheer exhaustion with trump. but i think what shocks me even more is, this abortion issue, people have called themselves pro life their entire lives, are now saying, "yeah, pro life but. especially the women, "pro life, but i don't want the government telling me what i want to do with my body it's not always that simple. it's not always black and white. >> yeah. >> you can see for the first time in six years, not small cr cracks, massive cracks in this coalition that just, my begod, i think this decision this weekend is going to expedite the collapse. >> so the republicans are trapped by their own base on all of this. i mean, they know they need to pivot on the abortion issue, but they can't do it because they are beholden to the more extreme elements look, there's a division in the pro life movement between people who will say, you know, we ought

to fight this out in terms of hearts and minds convince people to make different choices. versus the more dominant faction, which says, no, we got this win we need to go to ramming speed, as many punitive pieces of legislation and court rulings as possible so the pro life movement could have taken the dobbs ruling and said, "hey, we got a win let's chalk it up. let's advance more pro child, pro family pieces of legislation. >> mm-hmm. >> find the sweet spot in public opinion. instead, they have decided to double and triple down you saw that in wisconsin. you're going to see it in places like florida, as well. so you're absolutely right there are a lot of people who called themselves pro life, but until the dobbs ruling, you know, they -- there were no actual live bullets in the gun they at ndidn't have to work ou exactly what does that mean? does it mean exceptions for rap

and incest what do we mean by the health of the mother are we going to try to legislate women's access to pills they take in private? >> right. >> i think this is where you have the line. a lot of people on the right who spent the last two years, you know, marching around, saying my body, my choice. the government should not mandate what i can and can't do, now are pivoting and going, "wait, what, now i can't even get this pill? i can't get this treatment?" iowa, they're prolonger providing emergency contraception to rape victims, the new republican attorney general. this is not the way to pivot and appeal to the vast majority. again, i'm sorry to go on so long, but this is one of the consequences of the gerry gerrym gerrymandering a lot of these republicans no longer feel that they have to appeal to swing voters they're simply appealing to their base the hard core base is the one that is driving them, so they're

trapped by this. >> and it's not just the concept of abortion. someone getting an abortion because they don't want to have a baby. >> right. >> it is health. you're seeing these stories play out across the country people deciding to stay in certain states because of these rules. there is a woman in florida who has been denied an abortion. her baby is going to die, and she has to go through the entire pregnancy and watch her baby suffocate to death after she gives birth because she's being refused an abortion. it is a "washington post" piece. jen palmieri, this is -- the republican party has the al albatross of trump i'll quote chris christie, who i think was dead right in one instance here. he said, "you know what? an indictment, no matter how big or how small the case, is never good." he's already hurt by an indictment and possibly more coming then the party overall has this abortion issue

i don't know how they think that they even have half a chance in 2024 >> i think two big phenomenons are there. one is on the stress test of american democracy, continues unabated you have welcome back abortion i issue, there's heavy red states, heavily blue, and then you have the states in the middle places like michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania we've seen it in wisconsin and michigan in the last few months, votes that suggest abortion right it is a huge issue gretchen whitmer won by 11 points ballot initiative to overturn an abortion ban passed by a huge margin, as well. supreme court justice, the woman won by 11 points, a huge victory in a state like wisconsin. issues like abortion, issues like democracy, protecting the

right to vote, in the few states we have, swing states, are such a big deal voters are turning out in huge numbers to support women's rights, to support democratic rights it's hard to see -- i mean, i don't ever discount the power of trump, but it is hard to see how he can, in the end, you know, work it so that he's going to be able to get the 270 that you would need when they just keep continuing to push on abortion that's alienating the voters, particularly in the swing states. >> sure. >> it's interesting, mika. you and jen and i had a conversation last summer before the 2020 elecelection, even bef kansas i said the difference between republicans and democrats, politically, republicans focus on states. i said, republicans right now would be focusing on nailing down wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania instead of looking nationally.

democrats had a tendency to look nationally well, there were a lot of people focusing on those individual states after all, and what did you see? i mean, michigan complete -- a complete turnaround over the past year. wisconsin, a massive landslide in the judicial race, in a state that is the ultimate swing state. then kansas, as well you look at what happened in kansas last summer it is really shocking. mara gay, it's crazy i think here we find ourselves in 2023, and i think we're going to end up where bill clinton was in 1992. i'm not just talking about for democrats. i'm talking about americans. when bill clinton came out, they asked him position on abortion he goes, "i think it needs to be safe, legal and rare." i'm hearing that not from democrats, not from activists on the street i'm hearing that from

republicans. i'm hearing that from people who never voted for a democrat before and women who considered themselves pro life forever. then this ruling this weekend is just, again, the quicksand quickens for republicans. >> well, part of what's happening is i think what mika eluded to a moment ago, which is, the vast gulf, the difference in the way the extremists who are pushing one punitive bill after another in states across america. >> right. >> punishing women it is clear to voters that this is about punishing women and providers rather than protecting life so there's that. then there's women and all those in our lives who care about us and love us, who cannot separate abortion from health care but also cannot separate abortion from the other slew of reproductive health care that we

use to have autonomy over our bodies and our lives and our destinies. so it is very clear that this was not going to stop at abortion with the dobbs decision, and, therefore, women across america are not only thinking, you know, have i ever had an abortion? will i need an abortion? will someone in my life have an apportion? that is concerning, of course. it is alarming we're also thinking, is the iud next are they going to decide whether or not i can continue a pregnancy that may be wanted but there is a problem with that fetus? this is visceral, and it is also offensive because it's really, you know, what women go through monthly, but, of course, with reproduction, is extremely intimate it's a blessing, but it is also a burden it's scary pregnancy is dangerous no one is talking about the

maternal mortality rate in this country, which is abominable, especially among black women and i think that is really what kind of peels back the -- i don't -- it's just not a genuine argument no one who is of good faith can look at this political landscape, look at these bills across america that republican legislatures are pushing, and think that they are pro life, that they are pro woman. it's the opposite. i think that is that kind of visceral problem that the republicans are going to have, not only with democratic voters, but with anybody who has ever had anyone in their life making these decisions. hello, wake up, republicans. that's all of americans. it's just that disconnect is impossible, i think, for them to breach politically. >> i'm hearing that, even from those on the right and the faith

community, even the black faith community, that may have on a certain level of their particular way of interpreting their faith, been pro life i've always been pro choice. but they're saying that now, looking at it, this is being punitive and it's misogynist there is nothing in these decisions that call on men to have to do anything. this is all on the burden of women, potential mothers, and how far do you go? it is clearly playing politics, using the courts i think, joe, they have gone too far. they're overrunning the runway here, and they're going to politically crash. >> right. >> because the way they're doing this is so punitive and so abusive. even your most far right member of the faith community, black community, white community, we have daughters at some point, it goes beyond

what you would hope your daughter would do, advise your daughter to do, to have somebody saying, "i'm going to make you a criminal." i think that that's what these decisions are starting to shape in the minds of a lot of people who wouldn't have been there a decision or two ago. >> you know, one of then reasons rev, when i first ran in '94, knock on 10,000 doors, sometimes people would invite me into their homes. they'd invite me to sit down and have dinner with them. i didn't do the talking. i know that may shock people because i'm on a platform that pays me to talk for four hours, but i would sit and listen you've been with parishioners where you go and you sit and listen i'd sit and listen i'd be fascinated by what i heard. if it happened in two, three or four houses over a week or two weeks, i knew this is something all americans were talking about. so we talk about, for instance,

the 10-year-old girl in ohio that was raped, that was forced to flee the state. the 14-year-old, the example of a 14-year-old raped by her uncle in michigan, and that being what the republican candidate considered a perfect example of why there should be forced births in michigan and then you have florida talking about being invasive you actually had the florida sports association talking about how they were going to make parents report on their daughter's menstrual cycles. think about this all of this is adding up the party of less government, all of this is adding up what i'm starting to hear now when i sit down with republicans, when i sit down -- for instance, this weekend, when this issue came up, i'm starting to hear stories from them that i didn't know about. it's starting to be

conversation for instance, mika just said, did you hear about the woman who had a baby, the doctor said it was going to die, suffocate seconds after it was born? she was forced to carry it to term, forced to have a funeral and all this other stuff everybody has a story now, jon meacham. it's reached critical mass it was there before this abortion pill ruling this weekend. i must say, i have been caught i thought it'd hurt republicans, but i didn't think it was going to be a political landslide like, for instance, we saw in '78 with prop 13, how that suggested that the reagan revolution was about to go national part of this also just has to do, this political earthquake, the likes of which i'd suggest we haven't seen in quite some time on any issue, has been helped along by extremists extremists in my home state,

where i live most of my life extremists in your state in the legislature there. extremists in texas. we talked to a professional businesswoman this weekend, who said she wanted to move back to florida. she couldn't do it until she delivered her baby i said, "are you kidding me? yeah, these are real-life choices being made by women who might look at the laws of tennessee and say, "i can't afford to go back there. what if something goes wrong with my pregnancy? again, it's an earthquake, but it's an earthquake helped along by extremism, the likes of which, i must say, i never thought i would see. >> out of touch. >> so out of touch. >> yeah. and i can't help, just because of where i'm sitting in

nashville, to bring this up, as well you know, 14 days ago, the children and the teachers, the adults who were murdered at the covenant school were getting ready for school at this hour. and it's a -- i bring it up because there are -- there's the issue of reproductive health there's the issue of a wildly and, if i may, weirdly expansive view of the second amendment there's an anti-democratic, lower case "d" movement because we have a super majority here, because republicans can expel two members, they did. and these things are connected it's a reminder it s er -- and

world where we haven't even mentioned the indictment of a former president and the potential indictments coming -- it's a reminder that what trump has represented, which is this showmanship, this, we're going to own the libs, is actually of enormous real world consequence, right? his reality show, which is about his attention and his fundraising and his ego and his narcissism, has an impact on how people live and how the vulnerable live. people who are vulnerable who don't even know they're vulnerable because they're 9 years old and are going to school the right wing -- and, joe, you eluded to it you grew up around this. you were elected the right wing needs to be a fully functioning part of a two-party constitutional system.

they can believe what they want to believe about reproduction and about guns, and that's all what they're supposed to do. then you take it to the people when you take it to the people, you then obey the result because that's what we do. that's what separates us from chaos. think about what the right is doing here they're doing two things they're pushing, arguably, too far on these important issues, and then if they get a result they don't like, they storm a capitol or throw people out of a legislature. seems to be you can have the first but you can't have the second if you insist on having both, then you are not part of this conversation we need a conversation that has people of good faith, whether you agree with them or not

these are difficult issues, right? i mean, the definition of life and the roe system i mean, this isn't easy. >> no. >> there are people of enormous goodwill, enormous goodwill, who differ from lots of folks that we're talking to and about but you take it to the system, you take it to the constitution, and if there is a decision, you respect it if the decision goes the other way, you work within channels. you don't throw people out of legislative bodies >> yeah. >> there you go. >> you know, it is, it is a very difficult issue, abortion. it is a nuanced position people -- >> it's complicated. >> -- have layers and layers of thoughts and beliefs, and there are good people on both sides. but if you want to know where

america is, it's not on the extremes on this issue it understands how morally complicated it more and more men are understanding, as i said in that focus group of trump supporters, they just don't think it is their right to tell a woman what to do with their body. i will say, charlie, what is so fascinating about all of these conversations we've had over the past week or two, whether it is tennessee or whether it's abortion now, this abortion pill ruling, whether it's guns, background checks, et cetera, et cetera, here we are on msnbc, considered a liberal network, and what we are saying, especially on abortion, which i'm sure people on the extreme right would say, "oh, my god, they're being so liberal," what we're seeing is actually what "the wall street journal" editorial page, for the most part, is saying. what we're saying is what republican voters are saying behind closed doors.

maybe not that so-called base, but it just eminds me, charlie you know, we feel the responsibility, we do here at least, and i know other networks are trying to be fair and down the middle i just, at this point, i think we're reporting a lot of false positives when we report on what the extreme right is saying. >> yeah. >> because they are driving a wedge between themselves and 60, 65, if you're talking about guns, 70%, 80% of the public we're presenting a false positive, either here or on other channels, if we're saying, "well, one side believes this. the story right now -- and it is why we've gone on for 31 minutes this morning -- the story right now is what our story has been the last six months. how the trump republican party, the party we used to be members of and loved and fought for, is

destroying itself, and that snowball is moving down the hill at a faster and faster pace. this morning, it grew exponentially. >> i think that's right. i was listening to jon, you know, talking about the connection between all these issues and the through line. the through line is that, on the right, it's the run amuck. they've decided with their super majorities, their power, their wins, they'll push everything to the most extreme element of course, that's not where the american people are. abortion, it is a complicated issue. the american -- americans, you know, both pro choice and pro life, generally have nuanced views about it i think they're ignoring that right now by pushing for these sorts of things. yeah, i agree with you, that you add up a number of the events

that are taking place right now, whether it's tennessee, whether it is abortion, whether it is on gun rights, and almost day by day, they're moving further away from the vital center of american politics. one more comment, though, about the pro life movement. they could have, in the wake of dobbs, really begun to stress their support for the seamless culture of life. instead, they've decided to go for these performative, punitive measures the problem, of course, for republicans and for the right to talk about that were the pro life, pro child party, is that as long as donald trump controls the party, they're never going to be the pro life party because they have embraced cruelty, and they have embraced brut brutality. that contradiction, i think, is very much on display these days. >> charlie sykes, thank you very much jon meacham, thank you, as well. still ahead on "morning joe," a lot of news to get to this morning leaked pentagon documents reveal

an alarming assessment of the war in ukraine we'll speak with the former cia officer about the national security concerns there. also ahead, why bill barr believes donald trump's historic indictment in new york might not be his last. we'll play for you the comments from the former attorney general about this justice department's classified documents case. plus, the heightened diplomatic tensions between the u.s. and china over taiwan we'll go live to the region and get expert analysis from richard haass on that. as well as jon rahm earning an iconic green jacket at augusta national you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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yay! new dove body wash for skin conditions. the document case in mar-a-lago. i think it's a serious potential case i think they probably have good evidence there i think it depends on how sensitive the documents were, but also what evidence they have of obstruction and games playing by the president the president, unfortunately, has a pension for engaging in reckless and self-destructive behavior that brings these kinds of things on him this stuff is going to drag out through '24. it is going to stymie and disrupt the whole republican primary process. i think part of -- as i said, i think part of the reasoning behind it is that they know this is a red flag to a big portion of trump's base, and they're

going to rally to him because they feel that this is persecution. that will strengthen trump's hand throughout the process. i also think, though, as far as the general election is concerned, it will gravely weaken trump he is already, i think, a weak candidate that would lose, but i think this sort of assures it. >> former u.s. attorney barr with that assessment he was also talking about how undisciplined trump would be in a legal situation. j jen palmpalmieri, your new pie, "my career has seen many powerful men get caught in sex scandals donald trump knows he's vulnerable." you write, quote, my career which began in the early 1990s, aligned with the dawn of a new age of accountability. so it did not surprise me when, out of the three criminal investigations of former president donald trump currently under way, it was the one involving a coverup of an affair

that resulted in the first indictment against him many trump opponents are still looking for him to pay a price for his more offensive actions toward women, democracy and a host of other sins but the public's frustration is not with the criminal justice system is there to rectify, nor should bit a vessel to satisfy the public's political desires political accountability happens at the ballot box, and trump has already paid the highest price by having voters reject him in 2020 but those looking for him to pay a heavier price for his actions can find solace in the manhattan case the underlying fact he sought to cover up the alleged affair, the anger that was apparent on his face in the courtroom and the constant enraged haranguing of prosecutors all revealed the same truth trump knows he is vulnerable jen, i take it you get that --

you're not surprised at all it start ed and ended with covering up an affair with a porn star. yet, one thing does seem different. that is that, it seemed like during the age of bill clinton and all of that, there was shock. people were shocked about what happened they considered what happened to be not good. here, you don't have a lot of republicans saying that it didn't happen or expressing shock that it did. it's just accepted that it happened >> yeah, they won't go -- the republicans that are defending trump, they don't go to the substance of the charge against him or the underlying bad behavior on his part they just leap to the process and try to make it political but, i mean, one of the things i say in the piece is, i understand the concept of rooting for your political opponent to be convicted of a crime. that's the human thing to do but it's a misplaced sense of

what it means to be held accountable in a democracy you know, there was a similar charge john edwards there was a not identical but similar charge against him ultimately, the jury decided the prosecution had not made their case and there was a mistrial there. he was not convicted i was glad i did not want him to be i did not want to see john edwards go to jail these things are up to juries. they're not up to general public opinion. it doesn't mean public opinion doesn't matter even though republicans aren't talking about the underlying behavior, bad behavior of trump, as you said, mika, voters are. there was a lot of consternation, and democrats were fretting, that the stormy daniels case is not the best case to move forward with first, as if it would be appropriate for prosecutors to kcoordinate o these matters, which, of course, it's not i don't think it's true. i think people understand the -- and you see polling.

60% of people polled said they supported the indictment i know there is new polling this week that the number may go higher you know, sketchy behavior with a woman that donald trump does to protect himself politically, i think americans hear that and say, yeah, that checks out that sounds like something that guy would do regardless of party affiliation, that adds to -- you know, that just adds to the burden of, like, even if republicans are thinking, wow, it's too much with this guy. there's too much hypocrisy, too much baggage. >> mara gay here, "the new york times. your piece was great i guess, i'm wondering, you know, part of the irony here for me is that donald trump was allegedly, you know, covering up a consensual affair. of course, there have been many accusations against the former president of sexual misconduct and even rape. this is not what this is about so it is a little ironic because he was trying to cover that up,

but i guess it just raises the question for me, do americans still care about, you know, kind of misbehaving male politicians or not i mean, really, the case is not about that the case is about whether or not he broke the law in covering that up. >> yeah. >> so -- but help us understand, you know, what do you think voters actually care about here? is this about, you know, punishing donald trump's bad be behavior in general with women, or is this about something else? >> i think the public reaction -- you know, mara, i lived through october of 2016 and the "access hollywood" tape. you know, the set of the timeline here. you have the "access hollywood" october 7th. on the 8th, stormy daniels got in touch president trump team to say, "hi, she's back." then it was during this time, as dozens of women came forward to accuse trump of harassment,

assault, it was during that time that the trump team made their deal with stormy daniels you know, trump admitted to the payments he said there was not an affair x but he's admitted to the payments that's revealing they were worried about public reaction as much bravado as trump was showing in 2016, talking about how women were too unattractive and too fat for him to be -- to assault, you know, that's pretty offensive, that they were worried ability this story becoming public. they paid a significant amount of money to keep it from becoming public. that's why i say that it shows he is vulnerable obviously, three weeks after that, america left him president of the united states that was a gut punch to me and millions and millions of women in america that and what you've seen happen in the past five years is a

testament to that, with all the women running, women office, voting in huge, historic numbers. you see now, people supporting this indictment, whether or not it's because of his underlying bad behavior or because it was illegal -- i suspect it is more about just, you know, more bad behavior, treating women poorly, that is distaste ful for voters to see this in trump. >> jen palmieri of showtime's "the circus," new piece in "vantty fair," thank you for coming on. coming up, live report from beijing following china's military drills that appeared to seal off the island of taiwan. later, we'll dig into new analysis on why there are fewer swing districts in congress. "morning joe" is back in just a moment

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mika, i didn't know if you knew this or not, but back in the '70s, t.j. and i, we were on this wnbc chopper. >> right. >> it was crazy. t.j.'s hair was out to, like, way out. >> now it is really different. >> man, it was crazy sort of like a macgyver fixing up the chopper when in midair. >> good to know. >> the good old days. >> 52 past the hour. we have something serious here. >> golden has ended. >> i love that song. >> we have to start. >> welcome back. >> this is serious a rough transition, as they say, in the business. earlier today, taiwan reported seeing 70 chinese war planes and 11 warships. >> see >> in its surrounding waters in the latest set of drills launched by china. china's military announced its mission has been completed, indicating those drills may now be over. joining us live from beijing, nbc news foreign correspondenttl

security and military correspondent, courtney kube >> janis, we'll begin with you yesterday, i heard from a friend in the pentagon. they were very concerned about these exercises and believe that we were moving toward a conflict but every analysis i've read, outside of that, every person that i've had contact with in china over the past week, said that, actually, xi pulled back a bit in the exercises now, the ending of the exercises would suggest that were you hearing conflicting signals throughout the weekend, or had you heard all along china was going to be a bit more restrained >> reporter: well, china has said it was simulating sealing off taiwan and that they had rehearsed precision strikes on key targets. this is the first time we've heard that language associated with the drills, but the drills

are not -- were not as intense or expansive as the ones that we saw last summer after nancy pelosi's visit what is curious, joe, is how some of this language describing the drills is being picked up and amplified to create this impression that there is this ominous drum beat toward war, which is not the case right now. beijing has been very deliberate in its response to that meeting between house speaker mccarthy and tsai ing-wen xi jinping is trying to position himself as a global statesman and china as a diplomatic power playing. they're also playing the long game here. there are presidential elections in taiwan next january they're hoping that a more mainland-friendly candidate is going to be returned to power. so there was the sense they weren't out to scare voters with the military drills, but, certainly, to be able to have the show of power, this show of

confidence, and maybe have people think, perhaps, the u.s. is going to come to your rescue. what is interesting for me in this is what has been generating attention here in state media and social media it's not the drills. it's not the u.s. delegation that has been visiting taipei. it is anything to do with france it is anything french. it is emmanuel macron, who is being absolutely celebrated here after that state visit last week, because of some of the comments he was making about european strategic autonomy and not always falling into line with the u.s. position that's after the comments he made here. then he gave that interview to "politico," and a couple french journalists. he said, quote, the question europeans need to answer, is it in our interest to accelerate a crisis on taiwan no the worst thing would be to think that we europeans must become followers on this topic and take our cue from the u.s.

agenda and a chinese overreaction he went on to say that europeans haven't been able to solve the crisis in ukraine, so it would not be in europe's best interest to try to make commitments to taiwan that has been music to some nationalist ears here, where the taiwan issue actually gets very broad base support from people who think that the island should be unified with the mainland it also doesn't strategically help the u.s. here at a time when there is no high-level communication between the u.s. and china. there is very little trust between the two sides. there doesn't appear to be any clear momentum to get any of it back on track. >> janis, a lot to talk about here really quickly, this weekend, i saw some op-eds attacking macron, acting as if this is a reaction to something that happened in the past couple weeks.

macron has been voicing for six months, six to nine months, that he does not trust the united states on china. in fact, so much of this surely goes back to the blowup over the nuclear subs, the deal that the united states poached from fr france i think they're still smarting from that on china i also, though, i want to ask you about something i keep hearing. china, of course, opened for the first time since covid in a real way. a lot of business people, diplomats, thinktank types going back over to china they all come back, and, janis, they're reporting the same thing to me. first, they're welcome with open arms the chinese that they meet are so glad that they are back, whether it is to invest, whether it is to talk, so glad they're re-engaging with the rest of the world, one two, to a person, janis, and i'm fascinating what you hear, they

all express just -- they're baffled, actually. they're baffled that the united states, both parties, are as hostile toward them as they are. what they say, we've always been rivals we've always butted heads. but they ask the businesspeople, the diplomats, the thinktank types, basically, "why do americans, all americans, hate us so much more now than before?" >> reporter: what has been interesting about the opening up, as you describe, is starting to see these businesspeople and some tourists trickle back emmanuel macron came for his state visit with no fewer than 50 business leaders and ceos from the french community. they were talking about deals on energy, on culture, on television shows, so there was this sort of conversation that

chinese officials were wanting to have. shoring up those ties with europe, those trade ties with europe that are so important to china right now, given the deterioration in the relationship with the u.s. we're still waiting for xi jinping to make that phone call to zelenskyy we're still waiting for president biden and xi jinping to have the conversation that they're supposed to have, so that the plans can go ahead to r reschedule the visit of blinken. the summit that was supposed to floor under relations right now. we're just not seeing any of that momentum happening. coming off this visit with mac r macron, there is a real sense of the relationship with europe that can't be understated. >> courtney kube now, how is the military reacting to the

exercises? >> reporter: these exercises have not been at the same scale and intensity as what we saw after nancy pelosi's visit last summer we shouldn't discount how large these exercises were we talked about 70 war planes that were moving toward taiwanese air space. half of those breached into taiwanese air space. that's 70 per day over the last three days there's 11 chinese warships. they've been moving around the island they're practicing a naval block a aid. why that is significant, not only can imports not get into taiwan, food, oil, natural gas, but it means that exports cannot get out. taiwan manufactures more than 90% of the advanced semiconductors that are used around the world if those -- that supply is shut off, that will have a nearly immediate impact on the world economy. simulating a naval blockade is

not insignificant. we saw the chinese sim youulate attack in and around taiwan. we saw this graphic out of beijing that seemed to show one of these missiles striking in taipei provocative exercises have been going on the past three days in addition to the fact it was in response to the meeting with president tsai, the house speaker in taiwan, and kevin mccarthy in california last week, just hours after that meeting, a u.s. delegation arrived in taipei and spent three days meeting with high-level officials in taiwan, including on saturday meeting with the president, freshly back from her visit to the u.s. one of the reasons officials believe the intensity of the exercises is slightly muted from where it was last year is because that meeting with kevin mccarthy occurred in california it that is seen by some here as a win, win, win.

the chinese won because the meeting wasn't in taiwan taiwan won because they still got the meeting. and the u.s. won because they got the meeting, as well that might have brought down some of the tensions we had the opportunity today, actually, to ask the taiwanese government, senior level of the taiwanese government, for a reaction on this final day of these exercises. we spoke with the foreign minister, joseph wu. he said he is concerned because even though this -- these last three days have not opibeen as as what we saw last summer, the exercises continue to escalate in their ensintensity and show a real threat to the island of taiwan here's what he had to say. >> i want to start with the military exercises are you concerned they're increasingly escalatory every time they carry out the exercises? >> yes the threat against taiwan has been real, and it's been

increasing for two days already. the chinese mounted large scale air and sea military exercises against taiwan these kind of military threats against taiwan should not be tolerated by the national community. if you look at the chinese military threat against taiwan, they are trying to take any kind of pretext to launch military exercises against taiwan that is not right at all >> reporter: minister wu also really stressed the need for more weapons here in taiwan. that was a big focus of all these meetings between u.s. and taiwanese officials over the past several days. getting them the weapons they need to hopefully deter an invasion if not, to defend against one, joe and mika. >> courtney kube in taipei, taiwan, and janis mackey frayer in beijing, china, thank you, both, for your reporting this morning. we're three minutes past the top of the hour. joining us now, columnist and associate editor for "the

washington post," david ignatius david, good to have you this morning. >> great to see you. so much to talk to you about let's start with china, though i'm sure you heard some of the conversation before. first of all, on macron, he has been saying that quite some time privately to people close to him. you know, he's telling europeans, don't trust the united states on china they're going to rip you off they're going to rip you off financially. there is a huge level of distrust still from that australian deal gone wrong also on china, everybody i'm talking to coming back from a reopened china is saying the same thing the chinese are so happy they're there. basically, they're rolling out the red carpet for americans then asking them in the meetings, "why does everybody hate us so much? we've always been rivals why do they hate us so much? what has changed?" you know, one person brought up the spy balloon.

they said, "please, do we want to talk about how much you are surveilling china right now? there really is this -- there really is this wonderment on why this rivalry has become a cold war as quickly as it has >> joe, there's no question the chinese have had a principal foreign policy goal, splitting the united states from europe. they've worked hard at it for several years. macron's visit is the most tangible evidence that, yes, they can peel off a prominent american ally and get macron to say friendly things. at the same time, on this trip, the european commission president, ursula von der leyen, was taking a more skeptical view chinese shouldn't think they've crossed the goal line here there is a deliberate effort by china under way that's, one, a

charm offensive. trying to talk to businesspeople from europe and the united states we want your business. why can't things be friendly again? at the same time, there is a strident set of diplomatic aims. america doesn't seem interested in good relations. they're all committed to confrontation. what do we do? >> david, can i ask you this question not to interrupt, but can i ask you this one question that we've been asking? if we were in china's position -- and i'm certainly not defending china. i support everything biden has done here. but if we were in china's position and we saw americans with positions reinforced in guam, expanded expeipetensivelyn the philippines, sub deal, encourage japan to jack up its defense budget in a way it hasn't since world war ii -- and we could go on and on -- we

would feel hemmed in, would we not? >> well, would feel that the united states and its friends were responding to what has been an extraordinary buildup of chinese forces chinese diplomacy and military action in the region the last decade has been stunning people i talk to in our government say, you know, if you read the classified account of what's going on with china, it would make your hair curl. while trying to see the world through chinese eyes is always valuable, people should bear in mind, this is an unprecedented buildup. the united states is trying to respond to it. i think president biden is determined that he does not want to be the american president who prelive presided over a new cold war with china in the coming weeks, you'll see a strenuous effort by the white house to reach out to the

chinese. i think we're going to be heading toward a biden-chinese summit meeting later in the year is it going to solve the problems we're seeing? no, it isn't this is going to be a period of significant competition. but the desire, by the biden administration's phrase, to build a floor under this increasingly volatile relationship i think is going to happen, despite all the things you're hearing. >> it is a rivalry it's a significant rivalry, mika as we've said for quite some time, as your father always said, we're going to share the global stage together the next 50 years the chinese over the past four, five years obviously, you've taken a turn for the worse on many fronts, especially domestically. at the same time, we have got to figure out a way, as david said, to have a floor to stop the next cold war, to stop a coming world war. >> david, your latest column for "the washington post" is

entitled "why does this good moment for america feel so bad?" you write, in part, quote, at a time when the global landscape looks pretty good for the united states, why does it feel so bad? that's a riddle the biden administration needs to solve. u.s. national security policy seems to be less than the sum of it parts because the biden administration hasn't communicated a cohesive strategic vision where have i heard that phrase there is no nice way to put this: all the top administration officials need to be better and more forceful communicators. that includes the president and vice president and secretaries of state, defense and treasury biden is looking for the sweet spot, stopping russian aggression without triggering a catastrophe, curbing china without sliding toward war he needs to articulate those goals more clearly and use america's immense power to achieve them >> david ignatius, "the new york

times" mara gay is with us and has a question for you. >> yeah, hi, david i'm wondering if you could help us understand, you know, if at all, what drtrump's isolationis what role it could be playing. why does this moment not feel so bad? are americans exhausted from the pandemic is this about the infusion of isolationism what exactly is this about of course, we also have the anniversary of the good friday agreement. there's actually some things to celebrate here, democracy at work, america's role on the global stage in a positive way why doesn't that hit home for good the way it maybe once did >> mara, that's the mystery to me america's alliances and partnerships haven't been as strong as they are now for many, many years

europe, despite the expectations of vladimir putin, hasn't split on the ukraine war europe is still solidly behind the united states. in asia, we have new, stronger partnerships with japan, with australia, increasingly with the philippines. these are positive developments. what i said in the column, and i feel strongly, is that president biden, above all, has to communicate more clearly and emphatically to the country what he is trying to do specifically, what's the end game on ukraine? we can't simply leave this in the hands of the ukrainians forever. how do we envision this ending up if, as i said earlier, the president wants to avoid a cold war with china and wants to build a floor, he needs to say that directly. so the chinese understand it the american public understands it that's a reason for the sense of drift, is people don't quite understand where these policies, with many good aspects, are

actually heading so i'm hoping they'll address that in the coming months. >> david, stay with us we have more foreign policy to get to we want to take a turn now to domestic policy federal judges in texas and washington handed down two opposing rulings friday on an abortion pill dispensed safely for more than 20 years, putting access to the drug at risk for women across the country the trump-appointed judge in texas said the fda made a series of legal errors in approving the sale of the pill known as mifepristone the judge delayed the decision for seven days while the biden administration seeks an emergency stay as of now, the drug is still available. if the ruling takes effect, it could block sales of the pill thags that is currently the most common method for ending a pregnancy. minutes after the texas ruling,

a federal judge in washington state issued a separate, preliminary injunction regarding the same drug. the washington case was brought by a group of democratic attorneys ges general who wantea nationwide order to make the f dfd remove restriction on the drug the ruling only applied to the 17 states that sued and washington, d.c. that sets up the potential for duelling injunctions in those 17 states and d.c the fda cannot simultaneously comply with the order from washington state by maintaining the status quo, while also complying with the order from texas by suspending approval of the drug. >> this is going to go to the supreme court. it is going to go to the supreme court, and it is going to be central in american politics for quite some time.

>> sure is. >> this is something people were talking about this week end afte it broke ali vitali, thank you so much for being with us. based on everything we've read, based on poll results, based on election results, this is not something republicans were looking forward to seeing on easter weekend, was it >> i mean, yet, here it is,poin congress i imagine when politicians coming back from break, they'll be put in a position they don't want to be in, not talking about it, and those hyper conservative will lean in frankly, what choice do they have one of the more interesting things is how this further emphasizes the patchwork of laws across the country, the disparity, really, between the haves and have nots in term os of where this access is available. the abortion pill ruling is one

that we've been looking at for a while because abortion pills were always going to be one of the next frontiers especially when you consider, and this is something vice president harris mentioned, it can be a slippery slope, once courts start deciding what the fda can deem safe o ppposed to o safe this drug has been around more than 20 years. there is a way to just use mifepristol, the second installment in this two-pronged regimen. but the f dda has said this is safe for the last 20 years there is also conversation in pennsylvania right now i know it won't go anywhere legislatively. one of the things i reported this morning, two lawmakers, new york and texas, are pushing a bill today to shore up the fda's ability to keep this accessible

and to allow doctors to describe it over telehealth, something expanded during the pandemic it's not going anywhere. it is still the democratic strategy to press forward on this issue because the republicans are out of step with the majority of americans who want abortion to be legal. late-term abortion is a small percentage, and many cases, it's for the life of the mother, too. this is a wedge for republicans. >> mara, we talked about it last hour we're seeing republicans who have considered themselves pro life their entire life, post dobbs, post one extreme legislative ruling after another, saying, wait a second, this is not what i signed up for. suddenly, they're sounding like pro choice politicians have sounded for the past 40 years. >> part of the problem is, a little personal point, my own father tested me over the

weekend and said, "does this impact you?" now, my father happens to be liberal, but this was not the only text message that went to a woman of childbearing age in america. i guarantee you. that is the problem for republicans. this is not just a small slice of those people who have abortions. it's every person with a uterus who has ever had to think about birth control, has ever had to think about same sex, which should be all of us, right actually, this is something that is hitting home in a personal way. the other thing is just the 101s of politics is people don't like to have their rights taken away. >> no. >> they don't like to have benefits taken away. that is not actually what we send people to do when we elect them to office

so there seems to be a disundd misunderstanding of basic public service here this is not what americans have sent these people to washington to do. you seem to be confused. >> so true. >> the thing is -- >> the bottom line. >> after roe was overturned, i said, listen, i don't care what people's politics are. americans, they don't do the whole, yeah, they can take a right away i've had for 50 years or my wife has had for 50 years or that my daughter has had over the past half century or that i had. we americans don't do that you don't give americans rights and then take them away like this again, your father, mara, may be liberal. mika, i've talked to so many friends and family members over

the past few weeks they've been pro life their entire life. by the way, i don't have to say this and convince anybody of this anybody who is watching knows people who have been pro life their entire life, who think the republicans are being way too extreme on these issues. when this broke, when this broke, you knew there were going to be texts like mara got. we talked to people. again, we're not going to get into who we talked to, but we talked to people over the weekend that were like, "been pro life my entire life. this is crazy. >> yeah. >> men in legislatures are on benches. they shouldn't tell what you say to do with our bodies. >> they're on the wrong side of so many issues. >> and history. a new analysis shows why the country is seeing the number of

swing districts in house elections shrink. >> gerrymandering. >> according to the report, 82 of the 435 house districts fall into the swing seat category, which is a district that's plus or minus points in either direction toward a candidate that number is down 50% from 164 seats in 1999. in addition, as of this congress, only five democrats and four republicans are currently in seats where it is three points in either tr direction. >> house senator of the cook political report, dave wasserman. it's not just gearry gerrymandeg you can drive to any state in america. i don't care how blue it is if you get far enough out in rural communities,signs, there t

sorting out. it is traumatic, isn't it? >> look, americans are voting be h their feet the urban versus rural we've seen is the decline in congressional elections. we have more and more hyper red and blue states, districts sh counties even if you go to the precinct level, people like to level near others who agree with their political and cultural values. what that's done, it's profoundly altered the incentive stru structure electorally for members of congress. they're not concerned about the next general election because it is a foforegone conclusion the bulk of the competition is going to be in states where you've had non-partisan, bipartisan commissions or courts that have drawn boundaries

rather than republican legislatures that's why we're looking at arizona, california, knnew york to determine the next cycle. >> dave, al sharpton is that not only you seeing a lack of competition in general elections because everyone is playing to their primary base, it raalso affects being able to get litigation through everyone has to vote their silo to win a primary, rather than finding common ground to get some legislation passed that we may have been able to negotiate in the past. there can be no negotiate or compromise when everyone has to play to a hardened base. >> you're absolutely right it is amazing congress has gotten as much done as it has given the reality in the last couple years nancy pelosi and joe biden went behind the back of republican

leaders and got 13 votes for an infrastructure bill, as well you had 39 house republicans vote for the respect for marria marriage act republicans do still hold 18 districts joe biden carried in 2020 that's what democrats see as their route back to the majority the tough part for democrats is that you have a couple of states, new york and ohio, that could see republicans regerrymander the lines in 2024, because they took control of state supreme courts in the midterm elections. >> dave, let's talk about -- you bring up hal rogers, one of the few people i served with when he was chairman that's still around his district has changed radically. you talk about how it used to lean hard democratic working class, coal country. now, it is about as hard right as it gets

i'm curious. in 2008, barack obama would go out into counties in iowa that he may not have had a chance to win, but he would go out to keep it competitive can democratic candidates still do that, even 13, 14 years later, or are those counties gone >> well, consider who leads the democratic party culturally. you have democratic leadership in congress from new york or san francisco. there are fewer and fewer voices in the upper echelon of the party who truly represent the rural fringes of the country and speak to how voters in, you know, rock island or des moines feel it's become harder for democrats, clearly

what we have seen recently is the abortion issue is crushing republicans among voters who have long been pro choice but kind of drifted from the democratic party think of non-church going or secular women. that's why we saw the outcomes we did in wisconsin. going back to the referendum in kansas you know, as long as this remains prominent in the debate the next few years, democrats do have an opportunity to reconnect with these voters based on their longstanding hostility to republicans on over moralizing. >> dave wasserman, thank you very much for being on this morning. nbc's ali vitali, thank you. we'll see you again tomorrow she is ghost hosting. >> she's great. >> "way too early. >> she's great. >> love it see you tomorrow thanks. still ahead on "morning joe," former cia officer marc polymeropoulos joins us to discuss the leaked documents

that show intelligence gathering an r operations in ukraine. plus, the democratic lawmakers who were expelled from the tennessee statehouse appear to be on track to get their seats back we'll explain how that could happen it comes as one of the men had a chance meeting with an iconic activist take a look. ♪ we shall overcome we shall overcome ♪ ♪ we shall overcome som someday, oh ♪

all right. welcome back to "morning joe." look at that beautiful shot of the white house. it is exactly half past the hour more news now. dozens -- >> by the way, when chopper -- when t.j. and i were going around, we did washington.

>> you're not allowed to -- that's not even true because you can't -- >> warning shots >> okay. >> t.j. was -- >> stop. >> yeah. >> i saw the video i'll upload it on youtube today. >> yeah, that'd be something for you to do. >> that's great. >> you do that. >> keep my busy. >> you work on that computer. >> that's great. dozens of leaked classified documents from the pentagon reveal the u.s. is spy on its allies and russia. nbc news obtained more than 50 of the documents, many of them which are labeled top secret they are dated from february to march and refer to information collected by several u.s. intelligence agencies on countries such as israel and south korea. there is also tactical information about the war in ukraine. the documents first appeared online last month. both the justice department and pentagon say they are investigating the leak officials believe theauthentic,

though some may have been doctored. >> let's bridng in retired cia director, marc polymeropoulos. also "the washington post"'s david ignatius still with us, as well marc, let's pretend you are at a cia briefing 30 seconds to explain to your superiors what the hell is going on here. what the hell is going on here >> potentially serious compromise we don't know. one, we have to catch the traitor. two, reassure o youallies three, damage assessment it looks like a compromise of signals intelligence this is not end of days, possibly serious time will tell. >> what are you most concerned about? >> the biggest concern, by far, is the compromise of signals intelligence collection. on a good note, there is nothing about human intelligence nothing to do with our agents, spies on the ground. no loss of life would likely occur. this has to do with collection

streams on russia, which are quite important. now, i think there's going to be a damage assessment that is done i'm not all that concerned about the effects, the tactical effects on the battlefield ultimately, it's kind of long-term in the future. future signals intelligence capabilities of the united states, that's something that'll be looked at very carefully. >> let me ask you this, since we didn't reveal human intelligence or compromise anybody that way, i'm curious, seems to be a lot of embarrassing information regarding the russians in here is it possible that maybe this was an operation where we released information to get in the russians' head >> i suppose anything is possible of course, that's what the -- you know, on the russian telegraph, the military channels, which a lot off us follow, that's what they believe happened i'm not sure we concur, but there are so many questions behind this. there's one key point, joe, i think has to be made

there are some documents in there, at least the reports i've read in the press, which do seem a little optimum there was fomenting of arrests in israel, it looks like a garble. >> no. >> there are a lot of questions the documents themselves raise i think a lot of people are skeptical, but, you know, there will be a damage assessment. we'll see. >> david, break it down for us what's your take on the document leaks? >> so, joe, i'm struck by the fact that intelligence, which had been our strongest weapon in the first year of the war, we were able to back foot the russians time and again by releasing intelligence information, is suddenly an achilles heel for us these revelations are embarrassing suddenly, we're on the defensive. the u.s. is worrying about how they could have been leaked. second point, i'm agreeing with everything marc said about the

problems for sources and methods and collection of intelligence if you look at the substance and assume it is more or less accurate, these documents describe a real crisis ahead for ukraine in terms of its ability to maintain adequate air defense. they talk about running out of specific air defense missiles by the end of april, by early may there has been a great difficulty in finding these weapons around the world to resupply ukraine so, again, in terms of substance, i think the biggest takeaway for me is a sense that, at least in the air defense sector, ukraine is near exhaustion the u.s. has to pay much more attention to supplying them. >> to ukraine now. new reporting this weekend in "the new york times" highlights the story of a group of ukrainian mothers who ventured 3,000 miles to retrieve

16 children forcibly taken to russian-occupied territory in the east and crimea. traveling first through poland, belarus, and even russia, the mothers were able to successfully bring their kids back some of whom were their own sons since the war began, the ukrainian government reports over 16,000 children have been taken into russia and territory it controls, describing the actions as war crimes. the international criminal court issued an arrest warrant last month for russian president vladimir putin related to the issues surrounding the displacement and relocation of ukrainian children david, if you could, talk a little more about the children that are being basically abducted and what they're doing with them. also, the ukrainian women, ukrainians in general, you don't mess with them these mothers just marched into

russia and got their kids back, a small number, but a much larger problem. >> mika, think of the horror of this >> no. >> of children being kidnapped and taken across national borders. this is the kind of thing that happened in the soviet union under stalin crimea, a territory that ukraine desperately wants back crimea was depopulated from the people who lived there, who were just shipped willy-nilly out to uzbekistan because stalin decided it was better to have ethnic russians there than the native cricrimeans these are the things that happened in the worst times of the 20th century, and it's back. it's a scandal that putin is conducting these things. people should see them for what they are they're war crimes, and he needs to be held to account. >> marc polymeropoulos, this is straight out of stalin's playbook the worst of joseph stalin of course, it begs the question,

if there is a peace deal that keeps vladimir putin in place in russia, the question is, how does ukraine move forward? how does the west move forward with somebody who has adopted some of stalin's worst tactics >> that's right. there's a lot of thinking in the administration on, you know, what happens when the war ends it eventually will end you know, i think there's certainly going to be concern that europe is going to rush back into the arms, at least some countries, might rush back to normalize relations with russia i think these stories are important to high like the notion of holding vladimir putin accountable for war crimes is really important. because we can't, at the end of the day, you know, let this stand. a lot of people wonder, will putin will brought to justice? at this point, it doesn't matter what is key is documenting these abuses it is critical that, you know,

russia -- actually, russia, for them to reintegrate into the international community at some point, you know, maybe they'll decide putin has to go, but this is a war criminal. one of the great tyrants of our time documenting these war crimes is absolutely something that will be on the mind of the administration and our european partners, as well. >> growing nato. retired cia analyst marc polymeropoulos, and "the washington post" david ignatius, thank you both very much for coming on this morning. coming up, new polling shows a growing number of americans support the decision to criminally charge donald trump will the former president's legal troubles strengthen the support from his pace? we'll dig into that new repo reporting from "the guardian." plus, a federal appeals court upholds the use of an obstruction charge against january 6th defendants what it means for the hundreds of people indicted in connection with the citapol attack.

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44 past the hour there was a string of gun violence over the holiday weekend, including three mass shootings. it started friday in south carolina whith a mass shooting t a beach during a high school senior skip day celebration. six people were shot, five of them teenagers police say two teenage suspects were arrested on gun possession charges. in new orleans, investigators are working to find the person who sprayed a car with bullets on interstate 10 on friday a 10-year-old boy in that car was critically injured an 8-year-old girl and two women were also in that car, sustained non-life threatening injuries. then on saturday in houston, four people were shot at a celebration of life. "the houston chronicle" reports two of the victims were teenagers. police have not released other

details about this shooting. and in delaware, state police say a fight between several people at a mall on saturday night ended with three people shot, five others injured, while trying to get away from the gunfire. reverend al, this is not issue where republicans seem to be on the wrong side of where most of america is, and it is, as we just reported, a daily occurrence, an epidemic across the country. >> the frightening part is it has almost become normalized, where a lot of americans don't even get alarmed it's almost like, how many people were killed this weekend? i think that's where we have to really try and awaken the public and mobilize around national legislation. to think that we are just two weeks away from the shooting in the school, a christian school in nashville an argument is whether or not

some legislators should have protested in the well other than whether we should be dealing with guns and background checks. now, we have a weekend in three locations where there's mass shootings. we must organize around this the nra is having their convention this week, and we are having ours. that's going to be central, how we deal with national legislation around guns. we can't even get background checks, and this is something that is a human and civil rights issue for us. >> and to point out, the nra convention will have metal detecters and guns will not be allowed in there >> exactly right a newly convicted murderer could walk free in texas after republican governor greg abbott backed calls to pardon an army sergeant who shot and killed an air forcece veteran during a blc lives matter protest in 2020 nbc news correspondent dana griffin has the latest

>> reporter: controversy in texas. greg abbott called for the pardon of perry, who shot and killed veteran garrett foster during this black lives matter protest in austin. three years after his death, justice came friday for garrett's fiance and the foster family. >> the jury finds the department, daniel perry, guilty of the offense of murder. >> reporter: his fiance writing on instagram, i love you and miss you so much. >> this is extremely wrong that's all i have to say right now. >> reporter: perry maintained the shooting was self-defense. >> when i saw him raise his weapon -- >> reporter: foster was carrying an ar-47 during the protest, legal in the state perry's defense arguing the shooting was justified under the state's stand your ground law. but witnesses say harry was the

instigator. >> the driver intentionally and aggressively accelerated into a crowd of people. >> reporter: perry hasn't been sentenced yet, but governor abbott directed the state's parole board to expedite it. >> i look forward to it hitting my desk the parole board must recommend a pardon before the government can act. will it be granted the former district attorney tells me yes. >> i fully expect that a pardon will be issued, but it's not going to happen any time fast. governor abbott has proposed short-circuiting the entire criminal justice system solely to benefit one individual. >> reporter: garrett's family is asking the governor to reconsider. >> before he lets out somebody who was just found guilty of murder and lets him off, he really needs to look into exactly what happened.

>> nbc's dana griffin with that report mara gay, what is going on your thoughts? >> ah, my first thought is we have too many guns in america. how tragic, that we could have somebody who would be so irresponsible, you know, in such a heated situation, just add a gun into that. this is the tragedy that you get. it doesn't have to be this way you know, the black lives matter protests were overwhelmingly peaceful protests about the dignity of human lives that's what that was about instead, we're sitting here several years later having to talk about these -- this family that's been devastated and left behind because of that there's that then my other thought is that, you know, i think the word that was used in the segment was the short-circuiting of the justice system that's exactly right we've always known in this

country that for those who are powerful have often abused or been able to abuse the criminal justice system for their own w whims and political purposes and ends that's what governor abbott appears to be doing legitimate that is done through the process, and there's a pardon, i may disagree with it but that's how the system works to short circuit that is political and sends a painful message for the family of the person we lost but the protesters out there that day that their lives don't matter. that is what this message is about. we are supposed to have a justice system that works if everybody. this is political and unfair it is hard when you are proud of your country and see things like

this happen and it is a hard moment we are full of contradictions. we don't have to have guns in the street everybwhere. nobody else lives this way in the modern world. up next, stories making headlines across the country including an idea out of iowa to get more teachers to sign up plus, another debunked covid conspiracy theory. brandy zadrozny reports on a nurse that's anti-vax icon "morning joe" will be right back ♪ the thought of getting screened ♪ ♪ for colon cancer made me queasy. ♪ ♪ but now i've found a way that's right for me. ♪ ♪ feels more easy. ♪ ♪ my doc and i agreed. ♪ ♪ i pick the time. ♪

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a look at the st. louis arch this morning beautiful day there. time for a look at the morning papers beginning in wisconsin reporting the state's crisis hotline sees a spike in calls and texts after violent incidents. officials say people called at a higher volume after last month's school shooting in nashville, tennessee. about a third of adults say gun violence changed where they choose to go every day with some saying they avoid places like malls and movie theaters the post standard leads with new york's attorney general taking down fake government websites looking like the new york state department of state web page one of the sites also charged people $135 for a certificate of incorporation. new york only charges $10 for that the person behind the phony

website must pay $44,000 in penalties. the saint lucy tribune has a report of 49% registered democrats cast ballots in the 2022 election, a big drop when 61% of democrats voted voters said they didn't feel inspired by the party or its top candidate. and finally the gazette reports rural communities in iowa are using four-day school weeks to attract more teachers. at least four school districts made the switch saying it is easier to recruit and retain educators. to meet the state's required 1,080 hours of instruction they are in school an hour longer

each day. just ahead, reporting on donald trump and lawyers, why he demands they defend him first in the court of public opinion. we're back if two minutes. bridgett is here. she has no clue that i'm here. she has no clue who's in the helmet. are you ready? -i'm ready! alright.

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i would be most concerned about the document case at mar-a-lago that is a serious potential case i think they probably have good evidence there i think it depends on how sensitive the documents were but also what evidence they have of obstruction by the president the president, unfortunately, has a penchant for engaging in reckless and self destructive behavior that brings these kinds of things on him. >> former attorney general barr with an assessment on the legal issues of former president trump coming as new polling shows more americans agree with the

charges. >> after all of his crazy talk this week and all of those truth social tweets that he did -- >> yeah. >> world war iii on easter. >> sunday. >> the crazy stuff. >> nice. >> the number of americans who believe he should be indicted went up 5% this week >> yeah. >> so since bragg came forward with charges that i will say again for me there wasn't a lot of there there i know you disagree. >> is a crime is a crime is a crime. >> not a lot of there there in my opinion, 5% more americans this week believe that donald trump should have been indicted which gets to what you say about chris christie. >> that's right. no indictment is good. >> not in the general election it is just not

50% of americans now belief he should be charged. 1 out of 3 americans don't think he should have been charged. all that talk, 1 out of 3 americans believe that but majority of americans believe even after the indictments with no new surprises think he should be charged. >> look at the republican party. number one, republicans, none coming out saying he didn't do that he would never, never have an affair with a porn star and pay her off. no not one said i can't believe you accuse him of that secondly, political malpractice. political stupidity. not to think that this would

impact donald trump some way. >> and the general election that the former attorney general said, 53% of americans believe trump did something illegal intentionally. 11% think he acted wrongly but not intentionally. 1 of 5 americans think he would did nothing wrong. i want to meet those people. has to be a fascinating cross current of americans reverend al is still with us and we have sam stein. you do a lot of polls. fascinating. that actually more people today believe donald trump should have been indicted as he was than on april 1 before the indictments and heard a lot about how the indictments not as strong as they should have been and may be dismissed outright just as a lot of republicans saying like chris christie any indictment is a bad indictment

the numbers are proofing it. >> one polling track is number of people who believe he was rightfully indicted which you just highlighted there and has gone up. i think more people hear about it they say maybe there's something there and the other polling track is percentage of vote that donald trump will get in a republican primary. going up perhaps more than the former track. you have a paradox of trump. no indictment is a good indictment at the same time he is rising in popularity in the primary of the republicans and foresee the situation where it's december of 2023 iowa caucus is around the corner he's stuck in a courthouse in new york city or he's on truth social banging away at the d.a.

saying this is world war iii it's a huge distraction. takes away resources on lawyers. it is not a good thing for him or the republican party writ large. >> for donald trump, of course, for republicans who most are horrified by the fact that these indictments, this indictment makes him more popular with the base and less popular in general elections, that is again an ongoing dynamic that's haunted the republican party but he's done this over may be a misdemeanor charge if they get it to stick after the statute of limitations has run but he said this about a case that i think most people think is most insignificant of all charges, saying the same thing when georgia indicts him and most likely will if you look at the

facts of the case and the law there and the same thing when he is indicted by the feds in the case that i think they really got him dead to right on that one on the documents, on obstruction over the documents it is the boy that cries wolf. after you talk about world war iii, death and destruction, after you tweet pictures of baseball bats up against a d.a. there is no place to go after that for the most part if you go there, the judge will lock you in jail for contempt. this is a story i think a lot of republicans are hoping that gets worse for donald trump politically moving forward. >> not only gets worse you couldn't have a guy that is the accused that behaves worse than donald trump. he attacks everyone personally

he never really addresses the issue. going back to mar-a-lago the night he was raarrested and arraigned in new york he went on an attack. calling people names, the prosecutor, bragg and james here he never addressed whether or not he was saying i did not falsify records. and people have after a while when you go from case to case to case, how many times am i supposed to just hear you attack the prosecutors and act as though you're above the law or not addressing the law and when he rolls the lawyers out, they don't address the issue. so at some point it erodes the public trust saying are we all right with a guy saying find me

11,000 odds. are we all right with falsifying record and having porn stars it is too much for the average americans other than the cult followers. they are not enough to win an election or help the party. >> yeah. meanwhile, there's a new ruling on friday that could be significant for how special counsel smith proceeds with the investigation. a federal appeals court is allowing the justice department to continue using an obstruction charge, hundreds of people arrested for january 6 capital riot the judge wrote defendants that assaulted police on january 6 acted with quote corrupt intent meeting a charge requirement but in the cases that don't involve assault it might be harder to prove they tried to stop congress.

the ruling overturns a lower court's decision to toss the charges. joining us now, nbc news legal analyst andrew weissman. first, on these rulings, your thoughts >> this is really a gift for jack smith because as good as it is for the washington, d.c. prosecutors with hundreds of pending cases that want to know that this is a charge to continue charging, jack smith is going to be thinking about this obstruction charge with respect to the former president. there's nothing better for jack smith to know that this is already been approved by the d.c. circuit meaning he can charge it and unless the supreme court disagrees and will reach the issue he knows that this is a rock solid legal rock solid charge has to prove it factually but

getting the sort of pre-clearance is unusual to have and has to be happy that the court ruled that this is a charge that will stick for any potential charge he is thinking with respect to the former president. >> what do you expect -- the supreme court for the most part is upheld lower court rulings, appeals court rulings gone against the president on the issues do you suspect they'll let this stand if it is appealed from the d.c. circuit >> that is a harder call the supreme court in cases that are criminal where there is any ambiguity is -- may see an alignment of justices who are on the right and on the left saying that the law needs to be clearer. this is an unusual ruling with

one district judge who had ruled this way that obstruction did not apply every other district judge in d.c. ruled saying it is applicable for the supreme court to reach out to find that all of those judges were wrong and the d.c. circuit was wrong would be a stretch but i wouldn't be surprised if they found some part of their decision to be inapplicable remember that this is one of the potential charges that jack smith could bring against former president trump. it is a very good, solid charge but it won't be all of the eggs in this basket. >> "the new york times" is out with a new piece on donald trump's seemingly endless search for legal counsel. he's looking for them. reporters write in part, mr. trump is long obsessed with

lawyers. obsessed with finding what he thinks are good lawyers and obsessed with ensuring that his lawyers defend him zealously in the court of public opinion. they defend him in the manner he desires meaning measuring up to the example of roy m. cohen who represented him in the 1970s and early 1980s. mr. cohen whose background includes being indicted earned a practice of threats and manipulation mr. trump's continual efforts to identify and recruit the newest roy cohn's have always been unusual and impulsive according

to interviews with a half dozen people who have been with him. he has hired lawyers after only the briefest phone call. having been impressed by a quick introduction or being seeing them praise him on fox news. we know that this is how he hired the cabinet. >> clown show. >> i like the way this person looks and talks or - >> he would always say he's straight out of central casting. big and strong and burly i thought it was fascinating selecting general mattis as secretary of defense they call him mad dog. they call him mad dog. >> he loved that. >> but with lawyers, andrew, it is a little different. you need somebody that can not

only argue for you but control the client it is interesting of roy cohn. i want another roy cohn. >> you do? >> larry tie had a great book called "bobby kennedy: the making of a liberal icon" and talk about roy cohn and bobby kennedy both worked for mccarthy and talked about how he took us through how cohn would come up with the most outrageous quotes and theories, his office was a mess he could get headlines but nothing make anything stick. compared to bobby kennedy who worked around the clock, meticulous and went after that stuck. you read that book of how cohn behaved in the 1950s, it is a mirror image of donald trump you throw things against the wall

you don't work maybe that works in politics for a few years but legally talk about what a nightmare that's been for donald trump with his lawyers. >> if you look at the photo that you just played of him during the manhattan arraignment there is one of the defense lawyers there is truly excellent and that is susan necklace and he keeps on adding other people because she has two strikes against her. she is a woman and donald trump's miss omisogyny is not helping and she is independent and she knows that you need to guide your client away from the worst impulses that's not donald trump. what he is doing is really hiring people who are not really in his best legal interest because he is just thinking this in terms of politics a legal lane to me it is seeing

him make really bad choices when he is going through actually some good lawyers but not giving them the role they should have because he thinks he knows better in a court of law i don't think that plays out terribly well. >> it hasn't and it won't. andrew, thank you so much. reverend al, you have known donald trump for decades this is just par for the course with him but usually when he enters into a contract and break it and be in negotiations. here he has his freedom on the line and practicing bad habits with lawyers. >> you have to always factor in his narcissism anybody that met with donald trump in the office with every wall covered with magazine covers of him, this is how he chooses lawyers.

he probably was stunned. he rode to the airport coming to new york and landed in new york and rode to the courthouse and there wasn't hundreds of thousands of people saying free donald and our man and blames that on the lawyers. he wants to see the masses uprising he ends up with what 100, less than 100 people and marjorie taylor greene and she is shouted down. he wants to see himself as a martyr that's extolled when they don't get that his lawyers are at fault because he doesn't understand he is facing jail he is not facing public opinion alone and a lawyer that tries to defend him legally and can't whip up the masses will not last with donald trump. >> what is so fascinating the rev talked about walking into his office at trump tower the

mementos and the club championships that he won. all the trophies that he won from these club championships. and you sit there and go, i bet you did. reminds us of the story where everybody goes to the club championship trump misses the first round and show up the next day and they see on day two that trump is in the leaderboard. up top he is already -- wasn't there but rigged it so -- again, so he is always been able to survive in the reality distortion fields inheriting $400 million. being a billionaire. having lackeys away him. that melts away in court doesn't it >> right i don't see that behavior as abnormal i have my third place trophies

around the childhood on the wall you have seen portraits that i have done. politics it is different i suppose. it melts away ultimately a reality distortion field can work for a while until reality catches up i don't think every judge is willing to play this game. sometimes you have to step back and say, okay, ex-president is arraigned for paying hush money to a porn star and faces the possibility of jail time this is what is happening here unchartered territory. we haven't said it before when he is in a courthouse for an arraignment so it is catching up to him we need to recognize that. >> it is i think voters are getting tired. john mccormick has a new piece

entitled "for some trump voters legal drama is the latest reason to move on." reminded some past supporters why they feel it's time for the republican party to move on from the gop's 2024 front-runner. while the indictment may embolden the core supporters it is unlikely to help him reach more centrist voters he would need a 30-year-old self described moderate republican in phoenix said she can't support mr. trump again. i'm looking for someone to come in and work the middle she said. he's more drama than necessary and he would not be able to get anything done. for other it is latest national drama involving mr. trump is a reminder of the political

vulnerabilities and the blrand o politics often turns off the centrist voters critical to win the white house. let's bring in reporter hugo lowell with new reporting on how trump is betting that the indictment could make him the nominee and frank luntz joins us with the piece "how to make trump go away. >> hugo, apparently donald trump doesn't believe he is going anywhere tell us about it. >> yeah. let's be specific. trump thinks he will be the nominee. he doesn't necessarily think he'll win the general election that is a very telling or very specific way to describe the political future i think he came out of the arraignment with two affirmations criminally charged suspected

go - isn't going to make the republicans in congress desert him. number two that he has a wager about using legal issues as a campaign issue can actually bring him benefit es and -- benefits and concluded that for the time being this is the strategy to go with. to our earlier point about trying to bring the legal issues into a campaign focus, on the day of arraignment the order to the lawyers was to go on tv and defend trump and making them do political things instead of focusing on legal things and shows you the blurring lines between the two strategies and how trump conflated everything into a race for the nomination. >> frank, going to be

fascinating to get your insight on not just making trump go away but where republican voters are with him we have been talking about what we have been hearing and everybody is predicting the downfall of trump. maybe a combination of the extreme abortion rulings, just the horror that is we see in christian schools, and synagogues, maybe it is what happened last week but for the first time since 2016 people all in for trump are saying what that woman said in that "wall street journal" article i'm exhausted. i know he has his base. >> won't get anything done. >> i know. he won't win i know he has his base and they are hard core but we are seeing 2%, 3%, 5% peel off on all sides

of donald trump. what are you hearing from the focus groups >> we did one just last wednesday for straight arrow news and the sound and the fury of these voters, they don't just use the word victimize but persecuted i'm a language guy and words matter when they think he is persecuted they will rally around him he is actually more likely right now to win the republican primary. he is more likely to be the nominee. his support is fed up with the language, with him attacking other republicans. they don't like it and want him to stop. that said, as he goes down this legal route, if they think he is being mistreated and people piling up on him it makes donald trump a stronger candidate among

republicans. the purpose of that piece in "the new york times" is to understand exactly what trump voters are saying. i'll tell you something. the pundits really don't understand him they don't know anyone like him. the trump voters are clear in the focus group. i hope to play the tape. they have had enough of the negativity by donald trump but they really feel he is being mistreated out there. >> there's some responses from the focus group with trump 2020 voters after the former president arraigned in new york and following the comments from mar-a-lago you asked them to give hypothetical advice to donald trump. >> melody, if donald trump were listening to this focus group right now what would you tell

him? >> let desantis run. >> that's it >> that's it yeah go back to the florida home, wherever and enjoy life and retire. >> keep fighting stand strong don't back down. >> stop targeting desantis and target biden that's the guy you want out of office. >> not everybody that slightly disagrees is an enemy. >> stop attacking governor desantis. >> don't call people names. >> be humble be a fighter but be teachable. >> stick to the issues of the day. that are the most pressing for this country do not go to the gutter. avoid it it turns off the voters. s and don't run but support the candidate to get joe biden out of office. >> stay true to the american first policies

i think that unites independents, moderate republicans and democrats. >> focus on the democrats and biden and the policies as president that made you successful >> boy, frank, i tell you what -- >> wow. >> i have a lot of republican friends and most people i know voted for donald trump in '16 and in '20 but, man, when he attacks ron desantis, everybody -- he turns off everybody. they get really angry. talk about that. >> straight arrow news wanted to understand this is up there within about 24 hours. we have a second segment where they talk about ron desantis and mike pence and nikki haley so you just seen a snippet of it but they say that joe biden is the opponent not another republican

they appreciate what he did for the country. people ask me how can you write in "the new york times" that donald trump was a great president. i'm not saying that. that's not my beliefs. it is what trump voters think and applaud what he did and willing to fight and fight hard to undo the swamp. that said, they cannot stand his focus, his criticism, his gamemanship against other republicans and plays badly. i warn you and say this to the viewers. i know you don't want to hear this if donald trump appears to be a victim he will gain support. what republicans and the media does right now will determine what happens with donald trump you can defeat him but not by abusing him and not by insulting

the supporters it doesn't work that way >> yeah. i certainly -- sam stein, i agree that it is the politician in me. you want everybody to vote for you. you don't want to cut people off. one thing i will say where things are different today than four years ago, democrats want donald trump to win the republican nomination. every democrat i have talked to are like hoping. there are republicans now and columnists writing that actually bragg knew the indictment was a weak indictment and he knew that it would strengthen trump with republicans because every democrat wants donald trump to win the nomination because he is such a weak general election candidate, sam. >> right there are -- i agree with you. there is an occasional

superstitious democrat saying look at 2016 i think in the heart of hearts including the biden white house they recognize that trump nomination would be the easiest path in the general election i had a question for frank if donald trump can play the victim so well, what is the prescription for ron desantis here what we saw was he was asked to respond to the indictment around the hush money payment he said the most tepid criticisms i don't know what it's like to be involved in a scandal with a porn star. that is bare bones and yet the blowback is severe on desantis that he is then the next time asked said he would fiat an extradition of trump from florida. if you know that you can't

criticize trump, that he plays the victim so well, how do you maneuver in the republican primary? >> great question. the answer is clear from the focus group. you have to focus on what was done donald trump got this started but we need someone to complete it that donald trump moved the country in the right direction but now we have to go further. compliment the administration but not he himself every time that trump attacks him say we can do better we have to do better and focus on what is necessary to get the job done if desantis -- may not be the right person for this maybe chris christie of new jersey or tim scott where you accept what the administration did but you want to add to it. you want to go further you want to do more.

we know what the limitations are of the former president so let's take that agenda and let's get it done. that's what i would recommend any trump opponent doing. >> political strategist and pollster frank luntz thank you very much for coming on and hugo lowell. >> hugo, it is interesting, is it not, what frank was saying about the indictment lines up with your reporting which is it only strengthens donald trump among his base. >> yeah. it is this weird dichotomy that i think the advisers have figured out but not sure what to do about they sigh the base energized by the indictment and by his legal troubles and they know that it will carry them through the republican nomination and not

sure what that do after that there's a quiet acknowledgement among advisers right now we try to get through day by day. let's just survive the day and cross the general election bridge when we get there and more a reflection of not figuring out a strategy for the support for him becoming the nominee in the actual general and i think that is where donald trump's biggest weakness is and the biggest point is advisers know it. >> all right as always, thank you so much for being with us. sam stein, if you could, recount for us the most harrowing moment in one of the third places take us in the morning after the masters. >> no, please don't. >> the double bogey to make on 18 to save that third place

finish. >> it was basketball i was being coached by my dad. bringing the ball with a couple seconds left closer 3-point line. i thought i had the game winner but we ended up in third place and never forgotten the moment. >> that's painful. dad right there watching. >> he was there. >> not happy not happy. >> not happy. >> sam >> never let me live it down. >> i believe that. sam stein, thank you very much. >> my mom and his mom would have gotten along. a new fight over an abortion pill could be heading to the supreme court. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. check. psych! really? dude, that's a foul!

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that language associated with the drills but the drills were not as intense or expansive as the ones last summer after nancy pelosi's visit what's curious is the language describing the drills is picked up and amplified to create an impression that there's in ominous drum beat to war which is not the case right now. beijing is very deliberate in the response to that meeting between house speaker kevin mccarthy and tsai went xi jinping is trying to position himself as a global statesman and china as a diplomatic power player there are presidential elections in taiwan next january they are hoping that a more mainland friendly candidate will be returned to power and a sense now to scare voters but to be able to have the show of power,

confidence and maybe have people think perhaps the u.s. isn't going to come to the rescue what is really interesting for me in this is what is generating attention here in state and social media it is not the drills or the u.s. dell inauguration in taipei but france, anything french. macron who is being absolutely celebrated here after that state visit last week because of the comments he was making about european strategic autonomy and not always falling into line with the u.s. position then he gave that interview with politico and said quote the question europeans need to answer is it in our interest to accelerate a crisis on taiwan?

no the worst is to think that we must take the cue from the u.s. agenda and a chinese overreaction he said that europeans haven't been able to solve the crisis in ukraine and not in europe's best interest to make commitments to taiwan that is music to nationalist ears here where the taiwan issue is broad based support from people thinking that the island should be unified with the mainland it also doesn't strategically help the u.s. here at a time when there's no high level communication between the u.s. and china. there is very little trust between the two sides and there doesn't appear to be a clear momentum to get it back on track. back in december of 2020, a nurse fainted on camera after getting her first covid shot and quickly got back up and too late to keep conspiracy theories from

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♪ jen palmieri, your new piece for vanity fair is entitled "my career has seen many powerful men get caught in sex scandals." you write, my career, which began in early 19 90s aligned with the dawn of a new age of accountability it did not surprise me it was the one involving the coverup of an affair that resulted in the first indictment against former president trump. many trump opponents are still looking for him to pay a price

for his more offensive actions toward women, democracy and a host of other sins but the public's frustration is not what the criminal justice is there to rectify, nor should it be a vessel to satisfy the public's political desires political accountability happens at the ballot box and trump has already paid the highest price by having voters reject him in 2020 but those looking for him to pay a heavier price for his actions or just hoping for a bit of shaud freud can find solace in the manhattan case the anger that was apparent on his face in the courtroom and the constant enraged haranguing of prosecutors all reveal the same truth donald trump knows he is vulnerable so i take it that it started and

ended with covering up an affair with a porn star yet, one thing does seem different. that is that it seemed like during the age of bill clinton and all of that that people were shocked about what happened. they considered what happened to be not good. here you don't have a lot of republicans saying that it didn't happen or expressing shock that it did. it's just accepted that it happened >> yeah. the republicans that are defending trump, they don't go to the substance of the charge against him or the underlying bad behavior on his part they just try to make it political. i understand the concept of rooting for your political opponent convicted of a crime.

you know, there was a similar charge for john edwards. ultimately a jury decided that the prosecution had not made their case and there was a mistrial i was glad i did not want to see john edwards go to jail, but these things are up to juries, not to public opinion it doesn't mean that public opinion doesn't matter there was a lot of consternation and democrats were fretting this stormy daniels is not the best case to move forward with. first, as if it would be appropriate for prosecutors to coordinate on these matters, of course it's not. but i don't think that's true. last week there was polling that 60% of people polled said they supported the indictment

there's new polling this week that suggests that number may go even higher. sketchy behavior with a woman that donald trump does to protect himself politically, americans hear that and say that checks out regardless of party affiliation that adds to the burden. there's just too much with this guy. coming up, more on the new fight over an abortion pill that could be heading to the supreme court.

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and be better protected from mayhem, like me. that's a hard no. as we speak, i am being persecuted on a level the likes of which the world has never seen, even worse than the late great jesus. you know, many people are saying

we're very similar we're both very tall, very popular and both white americans. you know, gjesus did some incredible things. some would call them miracles in terms of fish and with regard to bread. fish and bread he rose from the dead on the third day. i would have done it faster. possibly two days. i think we could have done it a lot faster he had a good mind for business, water into wine, pure profit >> james austin johnson nailing another impression of donald trump for "saturday night live." it's still painful, but this time it's the former president interrupting the last supper i guess he would do that we have a lot to get to this hour, including the controversial ruling out of texas that overturns fda approval of the abortion drug.

some are calling for the biden administration to just ignore that decision. we'll show you what the health and human services secretary had to say. >> everybody thinks this is terrible, terrible news for republican politicians, especially in swing states. also ahead, from elections in chicago and wisconsin to protests at the tennessee state house, we'll look back at a strong week for activism from younger voters across the country. plus, conspiracy theorists made tiffany dover into an anti-vaccine icon by claiming she died after getting the shots, but she's very much alive and now sharing her experience with nbc coming up later this hour. >> this keeps happening. it is just ridiculous. >> it's disinformation on top of the fact that they're being ridiculous about the vaccine. >> welcome to the fourth hour of

"morning joe." it's 6:00 on the west coast, 9:00 in the east we have reverend al back with us let's bring in the president of the council on foreign relations and "morning joe's" official golf analyst and expert richard hawes. a big week for you tell us about it. >> we are having our national action network convention here in new york wednesday through saturday among the pespeakers are vice president kamala harris. we have nine members of the president's cabinet and senior staff. we have tyler perry. magic johnson is doing a business workshop. kerry washington is going to do a fireside chat with me on voting we are clearly trying to say that the civil rights organizations should come together and deal with issues of voting rights, issues of women's right to choose. we have the head of planned

parenthood speaking, as well as dealing with this question of gun violence and supporting gun violence it's all free. people can go to national action network dotnet and register. you couldn't get a better line-up of people. >> the timing is extraordinary if you look back at the past week politically, you look at what happened in wisconsin, which an 11-point blowout in a race that people expected to go the other way. it reminds me so much of what happened in kansas in 2022 where the pro life movement was expected win and ended up losing by almost 20 points. you stack that on top of what happened in tennessee. everything that's happened over the past week, six months, the shootings that continue to happen in schools, in churches,

at country music festivals, in synagogues you see one issue after another that's going to motivate black voters, young voters, the very voters the republicans don't want motivated going into 2024 >> no. the timing is also good, because you also have the victory that a lot of young voters participated in in chicago. when i was out there, i was amazed that when we did the get out the vote rallies, the young people and what's happening in tennessee and wisconsin speaks for itself and we are the same weekend the nra is meeting in indianapolis you're going to have donald trump and desantis speaking at the nra while you have kamala harris and others speaking at our convention in new york

the contrast will show america which way we want to go. >> you look again at the people that are deciding elections now. there's no doubt that this conference obviously will be very important we're going to be getting to the stories that talk about how young voters have made a huge difference in chicago, made a huge difference in the wisconsin race and going to continue to make a big difference all over the country. let's do this for richard. >> the great richard hawes. >> why don't we get to that in a minute first, let's go to the wild weekend at the masters. >> kaylee hartung has this recap from augusta national. >> reporter: what started as an easter sunday showdown between

jon rahm and brooks koepka quickly became a runaway for rahm. >> rahm wins the master's e ers marathon. >> he finished four strokes ahead of koepka. even jordan spieth's nine birdies in the final round and phil michelson's best ever sunday at the masters couldn't catch rahm becoming the fourth spanish golfer to slip on the coveted green jacket. >> never thought i was going to cry about winning a golf turn. but i got very close on that 18th hole. >> a near disaster in the gallery in the second round when three trees fell dangerously close to patrons near the 17th tee box, forcing augusta

national to suspend play tough conditions over the weekend taking a toll on tiger woods. the five-time masters winner visibly limping across the soggy grounds by the third round as hopes for a comeback were silenced. >> that is not easy to see it's a real struggle right now for him to even walk. >> for tiger woods it is tough to stomach for him to be dead last in the field by the time he was through, that is definitely a gut punch for him. >> reporter: on sunday woods tweeting, i am disappointing to have to withdraw by aggravating my plantar fasciitis woods was reflective. >> does it ever cross your mind this could be the last time? >> yes, it has i don't know how many more i have in me. >> reporter: an historic run by amateur sam bennett had fans

rooting for a long shot. his impressive game inspired by the words of his late father mark, don't wait to do something, who passed away last year from early onset alzheimer's. >> i got it tattooed on my left forearm so i see it every time i grip the club. >> wow >> that is really nice. >> it really is. there's so much to talk about. i would say, richard, it's very interesting. people in my house that were watching and friends that were talking about this, nobody communicated with each other beforehand, but it is very clear that everybody at least in our circle did not want any of the liv players near the top of the players board.

i was fascinated by that it was an instinctive roar every time a liv player went down. rahm was everybody's favorite even if they didn't know much about him before the weekend. >> i think 18 liv players teed off on thursday. a dozen made the cut three were in the top 15 or so, including phil michelson, amazing in his early 50s to come in second place. brooks koepka kind of folded had a two-stroke lead going into the last round. >> talk about michelson's final round. in his 50s, a guy whose reputation has been absolutely tarnished over the past year or so but what a charge in the find round. >> amazing to shoot mid 60s. it was a good tournament for the

geezers. freddie couples, 63, became the oldest golfer ever to make the cut at augusta the only bad news is i'm losing my excuse, the idea that i'm old. now i see guys almost my age the liv thing, i think this means it's going to continue the fact that koepka did as well as he did, phil did as well as he did, it was almost like a boxing match with no knockout. my guess is even though the tv ratings and the economics of the liv tour are as bad as they are, they've got some of the best golfers in the world still i love that young amateur. he was the only amateur to make the cut, this guy sam bennett, just a nice story. and jon rahm, stunningly consistent it was a real marathon because of the weather

the last day they played 29 holes or something those pictures of tiger are just painful to watch it was so cold and wet on saturday, people got in only about half a round it was miserable the last day was fantastic the sun came out and it was augusta at its best. it's the classiest golf tournament in the world. >> i am glad all the players on all the tours were able to play. you look at tiger. anybody that has had what tiger had, it is extraordinarily pai painful. >> speaking of the saudi arabia's liv breakaway league, there is concern that the kingdom is using sports as a way to rehabilitate its image.

here's a report last night from 60 minutes. >> saudi arabia's enormous resources enticed cristiano ronaldo of portugal for a salary of $200 million a season, roughly the playing wages of lebron james, steph curry, aaron judge and patrick mahomes combined the opening bell for saudi arabia's investment in global sports started three years ago with the clash on the dunes. a few months later the kingdom staged the world's richest horse race there's formula one racing and a ten-year deal with the wwe but to many, these mega events in saudi arabia are financial

loss leaders being used to launder the image of a country while cloaking repression and authoritarian rule >> they're losing a lot of money, but it's just writeoffs it's like a liv tour that friends have gone to the tournament they say hardly anybody's there. they have no idea how they can survive. but they can survive because they've got oil money also they've turned new castle into a team that struggled with relegation year in and year out to a team that's now at the top of the table. >> i think the cbs story got one big thing wrong. i understand about sports washing, but most of this is

domestic the crown conspiracy trying to show he can make life better for saudis under 35. he has rock concerts, sporting events he's basically saying my controlled reform will make your life more interesting and better and women can go to some of these concerts and sporting events it has more to do with changing the government's image there and making sure they have a degree of popular support i think that's what this is about. i think it's largely working if that's the standard by which its measured. >> it is critical obviously because he's moving away from some of the more stricter religious leaders. it's critical that he gets buy-in from younger people in saudi arabia

also, saudi arabia struck a deal with iran and now they're in yemen trying to make peace in yemen to end that terrible war seems that they're on a peace initiative here. what's going on? >> two things. it's a domestic first emphasis they have a fairly large population to develop. saudi arabia has rethought its security portfolio used to be almost exclusively dependent on us. late in the trump administration, the iranians attacked the saudi oil facilities, the united states did nothing. that plus the human rights and political pressures from the obama administration and now the biden administration have made saudi arabia basically become more self-reliant and more picking at china, a little bit of russia. this is a more independent saudi

arabia that basically has distanced itself from us, has decided it can't rely on the united states because we're going to put too much pressure on them. this is in some ways of not a post american middle east but it's a middle east america no longer dominates the way they did. >> the united states always puts human rights conditions around things, always looking at how we run our country and the chinese don't care. >> china runs an amoral foreign policy they've seen strategically the united states is much more interested in europe and asia and russia and china president biden didn't mention the words middle east in his most recent state of the union

th >> you've been complaining for 20 years that american foreign policy has been distorted because of an over emphasis on the middle east. >> 100%. i think we are strategically getting it more right and countries in the region are taking their cue and looking after themselves a little bit more doesn't mean we're absent, doesn't mean they may not come running to us against an iranian nuclear threat all things being equal, they are diversifying their foreign policy and security portfolios, becomingless reliant on the united states. president biden plans to visit ireland and the u.k. this week he's going to make his first stop tomorrow in belfast to mark the 25th anniversary of the good friday agreement brokered by the u.s. that helped end generations of deadly violence in northern ireland.

during his trip, the president also plans to visit two towns in the republic of ireland where he has ancestral roots. ahead of president biden's visit, police in northern ireland reportedly stopped a terror bomb plot according to local reports, members of the republican para military group the new ira had been seeking to plant a bomb in the border city of derry according to reports, the new leader of the new ira wanted a, quote, spectacular way to undermine biden's visit. it is an offshoot of the army. it end ed decades of fighting between catholics and protestants in northern ireland during the period of time known as the troubles. >> 25 years since the good

friday agreement was forged. george mitchell represented the united states in those negotiations it was quite extraordinary what the british did working with the irish was closed off the idea that you could shoot your way to pour but they also opened up a political process. people ultimately joined it, took a lot of local leadership we still have some of the r residue. the bigger problem might be these loyalist groups, protestant groups that are really worried about the future, about talk of a united ireland so there's still low level violence it's the most divided area in europe something like over 90% of the children in northern ireland

still go to catholic or protestant schools, integrated education is less than 10% of the young people it's because the towns and cities are still so divided. there's lots of things that aren't normal. i don't think we're going back to the troubles but it's still very much not a normal society in important ways. >> at the same time, former president bill clinton has a piece in the "washington post" looking at why peace in northern ireland endured while other efforts around the world remain stubbornly far from a res resolution. senator richard blumenthal says last night a surgery to repair a fracture in his femur was, quote, completely successful the connecticut democrat suffered a fracture on saturday at the victory parade to honor the uconn men's basketball team

winning the national championship last week he tweeted he's already started physical therapy and he's planning to return to the senate for votes next week. and twitter has backed off a controversial description of npr as, quote, state-affiliated media after critics blasted the label as an effort by twitter owner elon musk to disparage the washington-based news organization instead, twitter now classified npr's twitter account as, quote, government-funded media, quietly making the change over the weekend on the news organization's twitter page. the "washington post" points out the state-affiliated label has traditionally been used by twitter to describe government-run propaganda outlets. meanwhile, musk's other venture, tesla is building a factory in

shanghai to manufacture high capacity batteries that store enough energy to power about 3600 homes for an hour construction for the factory is set to again later this year with production slated to start in 2024. coming up on "morning joe," we'll explain the ruling by a trump appointed judge in texas overturning fda approval for a commonly used abortion drug. and we'll get response from the biden administration plus we'll look at the y youthful activism on full display across the country last week next on behind the series... let me tell you about the greatest roster ever assembled. the monster, the outlaw...

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two competing rulings by federal judges could see the supreme court take up another abortion case. on friday, a texas judge effectively banned the use of an abortion pill that has been dispensed safely for more than 20 years the judge gave the government seven days to appeal at the same time, a judge in washington state ruled that 17 states and washington, d.c. can still legally dispense the drug. >> let's bring in jennifer klein. thank you so much for being with us of course, we're hearing from democrats what the administration should do and others they should ignore the rulings and move forward, they should fight the rulings what's the president's position? >> first of all, we disagree

strenuously with this decision a court in texas has taken what is virtually an unprecedented step, maybe literally unprecedented step to reject fda approval of a medication which has been on the market safely and available for women for decades, for over 20 years so first and foremost we are fighting this decision in court. it's important to note that the decision is staid for seven days, which means that nothing has changed and that mifepristone is available as it was before the judge issued the decision on friday evening what we are going to do and the department of justice has already done is filed notice of appeal we will appeal this case and we believe we will win and this decision which would effectively

ban abortion nationwide will not stand. >> so do you think the consequence that many worried about roe being overturned and the question is what's next and what else do you think the white house can do >> this is exactly what the supreme court said should not happen after dobbs agree or disagree with the dobbs decision, which obviously i disagree with, what the supreme court said in that case was that states should decide what's happened here is that one judge, the plaintiff in this case is literally an organization that was formed after dobbs to bring this case in amarillo, texas, where there is only one judge so they had 100% chance of getting this judge to do what they've been trying to do for decades, which is ban abortion nationwide.

>> have you and the white house thought about reaching out to those that may have been pro life but now are saying these rulings go too far and therefore expand the base of support you could get against reproductive rights of women? because i'm hearing from fellow clergymen that this is a bridge too far. >> i think that's exactly right. that's what we've seen across the country. you saw five ballot initiatives which spoke loudly and clearly just recently this past last week in wisconsin you saw what happened in that supreme court election this is an issue which has strong popular support among all people, republicans, democrats and independents three-quarters of americans feel that women should have the right to choose. government should not stand in the way to make that choice. by the way, this particular form

of abortion is particularly popular. two-thirds of people believe people should have access to medication abortion. >> jennifer klein, thank you so much lexi, my gosh, all republicans have to do is read the editorial page of the "wall street journal" or even listen to people like ann coulter. they hear people cheering for the republican party saying your abortion policy is a disaster. and that was even before this ruling over the weekend. what are republicans on the hill expecting? >> it's such a mess. i mean, these conservative radio talk show hosts or commentators

on tv are clearly upset with this because they've seen how republicans lost last cycle on this very issue. there's no unifying position that the republican party has on abortion the interesting thing is these pro-life leaders of these outside groups are on the opposite side. they think it should be a states issue. they're privately pushing lawmakers to continue to make it a federal issue, because they think if it comes down to the states they will continue to lose given these ballot initiatives we've seen in places like kansas and michigan now democrats are trying to do that around the country again. >> is it not a real difficult position for those that are pro-life to mobilize state by state when you have this wave of new voters, young voters and women energized because they feel they're under attack? >> yeah.

i think a big part of the republican leadership has not gotten the memo that the sands in politics around abortion have completely changed since the dobbs decision a republican congresswoman came out this morning and said she thinks the biden administration should ignore the fda ruling, that it goes too far and it's a dangerous precedent. the extremity of where these undemocratic nature of how these bans are going, you look at what ron desantis is trying to do in florida after having said he supported abortion rights after a certain term and viability they're now looking at a total ban on abortion including that women prove they have been victims of sexual assault in order to access the exceptions then of course this abortion pill ruling, which is the most

ide ideology ruling. people are dying because of lack of access. it's outrageous. >> it's absolutely impacted the lives of women and the people who love them. it's not just actually abortion, but women who are sick during pregnancy or they have fetal abnormalities. this is causing huge turmoil as it pertains to women's health. jonathan weissman has the analysis for the "new york times. quote, a surge of youthful activism powered major victories in wisconsin and chicago and an uprising in tennessee as republicans absorbed a string of damaging political blows, beginning with the arraignment of their leading presidential contender. the news seemed to batter the gop's brand by the hour. but in an odd-numbered year and

a season when americans are more taken with daffodils than with politics, the clamor of youthful activism left a lasting impression the easy victory of janet protasiewicz and brandon johnson for mayor of chicago and the chants of young protesters in nashville boomed through the hallways before, during and after the votes to oust the two state representatives. >> what's so crazy about this is you've got your presidential elections. then you've got the off year elections where fewer people vote then you have the off off year elections when even fewer people go out to vote, especially young people there's been a rule forever the more off year the elections are

the older and the whiter the population is that gets out and votes. here, like kansas, we have an off off year election in the spring and young people made a huge difference. >> that's exactly right. same with wisconsin. young voters definitely powered that win there their turnout was higher than it's been in presidential elections. we've seen really since 2014 youth voters helping democrats and increasing their turnout pretty consistently. but since 2018, 2022, 2020 especially with donald trump, they continue to show up because of the lack of policies they're asking for feel personal they're tangible to these kids who are scared about going to school or can't have access to abortion or are curious about what districts mean for their ability to vote. they're paying attention democrats are trying to keep them engaged with rallies and

organizing to the white house starting a new social media effort to really keep them on board. but republicans are not in step with young people personality wise or policy wise. >> first you have the dobbs decision where you have the supreme court staking out an idealogical position on this issue that so far even the chief justice wouldn't sign onto it. now you have this other federal judge do this. this seems to me an example of how conservatives have totally lost their way what worries me about it is the court used to be the entity of last resort in american society and american democracy now these judges are so politicizing the courts that i worry we no longer have a backstop, that american democracy has to go forward.

the court is now just seen as another idealogical participant. where does that leave us >> this is exactly what john roberts was concerned about. he is conservative, but more importantly he's an institutionalist that's why he upheld obamacare, said don't ask us to do here what you can do at the ballot box next year. that's why he was desperately trying to get cava kavanaugh toe his direction. if kavanaugh had been astute, he would have gone with mississippi, which was a 15-week ban, which is where the majority of americans are in polling. instead, he created this monstrous backlash, this situation for young women who have been raped, this ability of

state legislators to be more extreme than ever. it's just been a nightmare by the way, the argument against expanding the court has always been that it will delegitimize the court's credibility. post dobbs the court's credibility has plummeted. it's plummeted in part because you have one organization raising billions of dollars that's just been outright saying this is what we're going to do we're going to make the court as idealogical on conservative issues as possible then after dobbs they throw a banquet. you have supreme court justices who ruled against 65 or 70% of where americans were on the issue of choice. they go there and have this huge

celebration and they're laughing and joking about it. richard, like everything else conservatives are doing, they're setting up the left's best argument for expanding the court. because usually you'd say oh but that will take away with the credibility of the court no they're doing that right now they're opening a door and they're going to allow the left to walk through it like they did in wisconsin and michigan and in 2 2022 they're only going to have themselves to blame. >> i also think we're going to see more and more people say let's ignore the courts, almost a 21st century version of

nullification. where does that leave us it just worries me that american democracy is going to be the big loser here >> we have to look at the state houses and obviously what happened in tennessee last week is a wakeup call for a lot of americans, but there is a really serious representation problem across a lot of state houses you look at ohio, wisconsin, north carolina and more where you have a republican super majority in a state that actually is evenly divided between democrats and republicans. a democratic governor, a state where trump only one by 1% and they are about to pass a total abortion ban in a state where 60% of their own voters don't want it. where i think there's a big opportunity is in these state houses

americans have mostly not paid attention to who represents them in state legislatures. we've got to pay attention now we need to start funding candidates 45 seats in florida state legislature run unopposed. that's not going to work >> lauren leader and alexi, thank you both. we turn now to the global oil market a burst of supply from a handful of smaller oil producing countries is threatening to undermine efforts by saudi arabia and its allies to keep prices high. in several countries including iran, norway, brazil and nigeria have pumped more oil since last

fall, boosting the world's supplies. >> let's bring in andrew ross sorkin this reminds me of what happened exploration of the north sea exploded in the '80s americans were surprised they can actually offset some of the things happening from saudi arabia and some of the members of opec. this is fascinating, what's happened this year europe, addicted to russian oil and russian energy putin misplays his hand again and suddenly the europeans have to find sources elsewhere. and they're done it. they're not as addicted to russian oil anymore. now we get this news over the weekend about saudi arabia not holding the trump card they expected to hold for so long >> that's the most interesting part about it.

opec and opec plus have always been cartels and there's been a view that it's a monolithic cartel and that saudi arabia largely controls the cartel and clearly what we're seeing now is a splintering of some degree of that nigeria is the best example. they are a member of opec and yet they are not following along with the opec plan, if you will. they were producing 350 million barrels of oil now they're up to 1.3 million barrels of oil saudi arabia can say what they want about cutting production, but nigeria is saying we're not doing that we are trying to sell our oil. as a result it's changed the pricing scheme there was an expectation we could see crude up to $125 a barrel it has stayed oddly steady at

$85 a barrel that's largely because of these other countries that have come in you talked about russia and its production you still have countries like india and others continuing to buy that russian oil that's also playing a role and part in all of this. >> do you think saudi arabia leverage goes up somewhat as global economic growth picks up a little bit >> you'd think so, except the question is they may try to hold the line they're looking for higher prices that's what this has been all about. they'll be the swing producer in terms of what the price ultimately is if they start to produce more that means the price can go down, not up the only thing they can do is

try to restrict prices, but that hurts themselves at the same time. >> andrew ross sorkin, thank you. richard hawes, thank you as well coming up, tiffany dover is a prominent name among the anti-vaxxer community, but she never wanted to be part of their conspiracy theories. now she's sharing her story with nbc. that chewy box showed up? - oh, i saw it. - my tail goes bonkers for treats at great prices. sorry about the vase. - [announcer] save more on what they love with everyday great prices at chewy. trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing] ...copd sitting down. ♪it's a new dawn,...♪

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okay ten minutes before the top of the hour we're following situat louisville, kentucky the louisville metro police department is warning residents to stay out of the area which is close to slugger field the situation is on going, and we will bring you developments as they come they call this an active aggressive situation so gunman, gunmen still at large. dangerous situation downtown louisville, kentucky, near slugger field, if you know the area. >> multiple casualties already >> stay away. in december of 2020, tennessee nurse tiffany dover volunteered to receive her covid vaccine on live television she was going to talk to reporters afterward to tell them how the vaccine represented hope

for her after a year of being on the front lines of the pandemic. however, as she began to talk to reporters, she collapsed >> i'm sorry i'm feeling really dizzy i'm sorry. >> whoa. >> shortly afterwards, dover explained that she has a condition that causes her to faint. take a listen. >> i have a history of having an overactive vagal response. so with that, if i have pain from anything, hangnail or if i stub my toe, i can just pass out. i feel fine now, and the pain in my arm is very minimal actually. i have passed out probably six times in the past six weeks.

it's common for me >> no regret taking the vaccine? >> no, no. like i said, a hangnail can cause me to have this. >> this is common -- >> it is for me, yes >> despite that explanation, dover's experience became a lightning rod for anti-vaccine conspiracy theories with several groups claiming she died from the vaccine. dover's life suddenly became bombarded with people constantly calling her work, commenting on her social media and even showing up on her front lawn after two years of silence, tiffany dover exclusively spoke to nbc news with a message to those spreading lies about her >> for years now there's been this very active community sort of telling your story, telling store ries about you. what's your message to that community now? >> my message is simple is that

i'm alive. i'm alive. i'm well that's it. i hope they believe it >> joining us now, nbc news senior reporter covering disinformation and extremism brandy zadrozny. she's been reporting on tiffany dover for over two years and finally got the chance to talk with her on her podcast entitled truthers,ive any dover is dead the podcast explores how tiffany's experience became a weapon in the global information war. brandy, you can see how this has impacted tiffany dover, even in that small sound bite answering your question. >> 100%. this is a nurse in higton, alabama. she recently quit her job. it affected everything it affected her teenager daughter and son who were

bombarded with these messages. her family is getting death threats constantly, where are you hiding tiffany how can you do this to tiffany people showed up with go pros at her door claiming they were going to fix her, that she was injured. she was seeing death after death after death, and so with this on top of that, it really did, it affected her life so astronomically. >> brandy, any of the groups or people that were pushing that she was, in fact, dead, did you find out what was their incentive? why were they doing this was there some kind of fund-raising involved? was it the anti-vax movement what was motivating this absolute hoax? >> tiffany's story was sort of special. one, it was the first. we think of it as the canary in the coal mine for all of the nonsense out there right now but it was so electric because people were drawn to tiffany

you saw her, you saw that video of her fainting. it was visceral, right it elicited a reaction so lots of people leapt onto it. you do have the grifters who are selling supplements and have their podcasts she was on info wars, alex jones' show, the day after she fainted. there are people with a real financial incentive to push this i would say the majority of people who were following this were people that saw that video and didn't see anything else and were just concerned, just didn't know that's where misinformation thrives, in that sort of information vacuum, where people want answers because of the hospital's response which was to do basically nothing, that just grew and grew. >> nbc senior reporter brandy zadrozny, thank you so much. great work you can listen to brandy's full conversation with tiffany dover on her podcast entitled "truthers: tiffany doveer is dead" and on any platform where you get your podcasts.

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it's a few minutes before the top of the hour. >> beautiful view of new york. >> you know what that means, joe? >> i do. a little nervous about it to be honest with you. i always say to you, and we've talked about this before i'm like, okay, what are you going to do if you're like the person that's spinning plates on ed sullivan. >> dishes, juggling. >> all over the place before the beatles come out nobody is going to remember what you do. >> maybe you should get a stick, spin the plates on a stick >> exactly it doesn't matter what you do because nobody is going to remember the warmup act. >> nobody. a four-hour warmup. >> a four-hour warmup. we've been sitting here spinning plates, juggling. >> you threw a few of them

against the wall it didn't work >> nothing worked. >> no pop in the ratings >> i know now what those plate spinners who opened up for the beatles on ed sullivan felt like because, look who we're opening up for here. >> ana cabrera seriously? >> does my head fit inside the camera now after that introduction my goodness. >> perfectly actually. perfectly. >> perfectly. >> welcome to the family. >> thank you so much i don't know how you guys get up as early as you do day in and day out. that i will have to talk to you about after the show to get some tips it's wonderful to be here. >> they call us cert find -- >> katty kay when she fills in says you all are certifiacertif. >> i've got to say, mika and i have always been a big fan >> yeah. >> mika's appreciation for you

escalated so much. you had a daughter that ran in the new york marathon. she ran at fast pace. >> 7:20. >> then we saw what you did. whoa super athlete here. >> call me a glutton for punishment the marathon is quite the physical challenge just to finish is a huge accomplishment for anyone. so congrats to your relatives and other friends who participated in that honestly, guys, i'm so grateful to be here, to be your colleague and to just be part of this amazing operation. you all do wonderful work. i hope to live up to the standard >> oh, my gosh come on. we've watched you for years. >> please, please. we're a mess. >> you've so outdone us already, which is why we're your warmup act. thank you so much. by the way, everybody, welcome ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. >> thank you, guys let's get it done.

>> good morning to all of you. thank you for being with us for this first show of mine here on msnbc. i'm ana cabrera reporting live from new york. we're staying on top of several fast-moving stories on this monday, starting with an intense abortion rights showdown that could be on a fast track to the supreme court. two competing rulings from federal judges putting the fate of one of the one of the most commonly used abortion pills in question democracy pointing fury at the judge who rolled back the approval of mifepristone john fed der man saying, quote, this ruling by a hard-right trump appointed judge is simply b.s. >> the new action from democrats aimed at protecting access to this medication. my conversation with michigan attorney general dana nessel who emphasized tha