imagine that this might be the seeds of some bipartisanship >> if we cannot make that work, then shame on us. >> yeah. >> shame on our democracy. that's what we're here for. >> are we going to agree on everything absolutely not yes, we have some work to do, but i think the three men sitting up here right now are willing to do the work because i want to see the same progress that we see in the past few generations two, three, four, five, six generations from now >> that was trumaine lee reporting. what a great example of bipartisanship right there that's it for me today i'll see you back here saturday noon eastern, sunday, 1 p.m. eastern but "deadline white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone it's 4:00 in new york and so it begins the search for 12 jurors and 6 alternates is now underway in that 1 point be point $6 billion

defamation lawsuit against fox news brought by dominion voting systems. today judge eric davis asked the pool of prospects a number of questions, things like whether they watched fox news, for instance, or whether they have ever volunteered as poll watchers now once selected, the final group of jurors will be tasked with deciding whether or not fox news acted with actual malice in the aftermath of the 2020 election when fox news aired false statements about election interference thanks to the result of a pre-trial hearing, the falsity of those claims, those claims about election fraud, those conspiracies about hugo chavez and the machines flipping results of the election are a given. judge has already ruled on that. they are presumed false. such spur yious claims will notb debated before the jury. we have now in our possession the newly uncovered recordings,

the source of all that upheaval which shook yesterday's hearing with the judge we told you about that when we came on the air yesterday. not only do they provide an extraordinary new look behind the curtain at the symbiotic relationship cultivated by fox and the trump campaign, they also add important new data points in the weeks leading up to the failed january 6th insurrection so hit rewind. we'll go back to the 7th of november of 2020, days after the election president joe biden had been declared the winner while rudy giuliani did whatever that thing was that he did in front of four seasons total landscaping. the first recording we're going to play with you happened the day after that, on the 8th this is a conversation between rudy giuliani and fox news host maria bart tore roma. >> i'm asking you for as much evidence as you can tell us about the lawsuits whatever you can tell us in terms of evidence would be really helpful

okay great. >> i can tell you exactly what we have. >> perfect and what about this software, this dominion software >> that's a little harder. >> seems troubling. >> to tell you right -- it's being analyzed right now i mean, there are a couple of races that have been reversed because the democrat was triple counted, two already in michigan now whether that applies to the whole state or not, i can't tell you yet. >> this dominion software, does nancy pelosi have an interest in it >> i've read that. i can't prove that >> so, it's a little hard to hear we had the graphics up there, too, but what the recording shows is -- it's actually a remarkable conversation between maria bartiromo and rudy giuliani and it shows that even on that day, bartiromo is still asking for proof from rudy giuliani and importantly

giuliani has none, no proof. here's where it gets more complicated for fox. on that exact day bartiromo showcases sidney powell. she has sidney powell on her show and when sidney powell gets on the air, she uses the opportunity on the air to repeat the unfounded claims of dead voters and fraudulent ballots that rudy giuliani has just told bartiromo he has no evidence of. another recording that dates to december 5th of that year, a few weeks later, illustrates ways trump was signaling to fox what might go down on january 6th listen >> we have seen so much reporting, whether it be december 8th or december 14th, and we've seen virtually zero pickup of the january 6th date so realizing that a lot of folks, you know, who probably have normal lives haven't gone through it and looked at the case of hawaii in 1960 and how that went all the way to january

6th and such that's the whole reason why i wanted to chat with you to understand where the real back stops are here. >> the january 6th date, i'm pulling up the time loun, that's when they count the votes. >> right right. and if both sets of electors are set up, that would be the moment when the vice president, who's the president's senate, has to decide. >> telegraphing that months in advance. that recorded phone call a mob of trump supporters would storm the u.s. capitol fueled in part by election lies fox news helped disseminate this is where we begin today writer at large for "the new york times," jim ritenburg is here katie fang "new york times" editorial board member and msnbc board member, mar gay. you have amazing new reporting

about fox and the mourdocks. i want to start with the state of the pre-trial hearings which have been a lot more -- there's been a lot more drama than i think people like me expected. maybe katie fang finds these things riveting all the time, but there have been veritable fireworks and some of what has been so dramatic has been the recordings and the way the judge has reacted to them. what is your sense of what kind of legal footing fox is on as it heads into a trial next week. >> well, it's been extraordinary that already there's so much drama around this case so here's some more drama, but that said, look, what really is going to matter is what happens in front of the judge, what happens in front of the jury. but they start out with the judge in an unhappy place. i mean, he's angry with how he believes fox has handled this. fox has explanations for how the discovery process has been handled, which is in question here these new recordings will only matter though in terms of how

they play to a jury, what they say to maria bartiromo's state of mind, their producer's state of mind. all of this will take on a whole different hue when it's in front of the only audience that matters, and that's that jury. >> it's clear, jim, that, you know, before this lawsuit all that you had or all that people like me had, you've done great investigative reporting about what showed up on the air. the fringiest anchors were in talks with the trump campaign. there was no evidence. that seems to be more than just the fireworks and the drama, they seem to be starting on very shaky legal ground. >> that's why every -- so many first amendment lawyers and experts say that this is an extraordinarily strong defamation case, and that's rare in the united states would he have a lot of leeway as the press. yes, i mean, the judge has

already said from the get-go that the statements that are at issue in the trial, by the way, there are 20 statements at issue above all others, that these were false nobody's contesting that they were true so that's where they're starting from. now pr wise, that's obviously problematic. in the courtroom what fox is going to argue is that this wasn't actual malice, that we were within our rights to report this, but they're even limited in that respect. so, yes, they start out in a -- with a very hard hand to play but, again, that -- sorry to be a broken record about it, but the jury -- the jury -- >> the jurors will make the decision katie fang, let me play some more of the recordings which have provided some of this pre-trial drama. these are from -- this one's from december 5th. newly revealed recordings between the trump campaign and fox news >> are any of the machines -- i know it was on war room the other day with steve bannon. the have any of the machines

been looked at he had said that one was looked at in georgia. t the. >> i'd have to check on that in terms of georgia, i know during the audit they did check on those machines. if we could just go off the record for one sec here. >> yeah, sure. of course. i don't want us to say it if it's not -- that's why we're checking >> yeah. i would -- i would -- i think they have looked at the machines when the secretary of state did its audit, there was a lot -- i think a fair bit of looking at the machines you know, the audit came in pretty darn close to what the machine count was with the receipts so, you know, i don't know the outcome of those, but our understanding -- again, this is from the secretary of state's office, was that there weren't any physical issues with machines on those inspections. >> so, katie, am i right that what this recording shows is

that knowledge in the state of georgia an audit revealed no issues, zero issues with the voting machines, that the trump campaign and by the way of their off the record comments to fox news in that december 5th conversation, the trump campaign and fox news knows there are no issues with the voting machines in georgia >> yeah. and the critical part of what you just said and the critical part of that recording, nicole, is, hey, can we go off the record for a second here and that's the important part, right? the part that was off the record, which was the truth that an audit was done of the machines the counts were almost identical. there were no problems i think fox is going to go into this trial, nicole, saying, okay, we can't rely upon truth because the court has already ruled that falsity exists. everything that was coming out of fox news was not true so then they're like, okay, maybe we can rely on this idea that we were waiting for offers of proof, and that is one of the defenses that we're going to hear from fox in this trial.

we knew, we were told by rudy giuliani, janet alice, sidney powell that i'm going to give you that evidence. i'm going to get that evidence for you so we're just going to put forth those lies and then we're going to backstop it with the truth. where is that? it doesn't exist that's why jury selection is so important. you win and lose a case based upon your jury selection process. and that's why seating the right people to sit in judgment of fox news and fox corp is so important, and that's why the process that's taking place right now as we sit here in wilmington, delaware, is actually going to determine the outcome of this trial before the first witness is ever called there's a cart before the horse problem for fox. if you are going to put information out there for your consumers, for your viewers to be able to digest, you can't say later on that you're going to provide the proof and the evidence you've got to have it before you do it. >> it seems that some of this body of evidence that we're seeing from dominion is, again,

showing what was privately known and understood you know, this recording doesn't include a debate or dispute about the facts. there's a question about whether there's proof of the machine slipping there's an answer off the record that there isn't and yet here's what rudy giuliani goes on and says on the fox news air waves seven days later let me play this. >> now we get to detroit, we have a truck that pulled in at 4:30 in the morning with 100,000 votes and we have a machine, the dominion machine, that's filled with holes and was developed to steal elections and being used in the states that are involved. so there's a lot that's going to come out here over the next month or so. >> now, again, katie, rudy is like this bright light that i,s among many, have followed out the window many times, but the point seems to be not the insane things that rudy says but the fact that seven days after being

told there was no problem with the machines fox news publishes this line knowingly. is that the purpose of this recording? >> yeah. and it also goes to show that this is not some recording that's secret, this was on fox and friends. this was information that was already put out in the public by fox and that's really what dominion is saying here. dominion is holding up fox as this prime example of how not to do journalism the right way. they're looking at this example of rudy because we already know he's having these conversations with maria bartiromo and he's having these conversations with sidney powell and all of these kind of open-ended questions and yet it's just being accepted as gospel there's no journalistic fact checking the problem is this is information coming forward from abby grossberg after the discovery process has been concluded. fox today said and i wanted to say this quickly, nicole

fox said it learned about the existence of these recordings when is she filed an errata sheet. you're under oath, yo you are' deposed, you're given the transcript and you're allowed to make changes abby grossberg said after she was foxed by the fox lawyers, she had her deposition done, she asked repeatedly to do an errata sheet and she was never given the errata sheet it was only after she got her own counsel and she got rid of fox's lawyers that she was able to be able to file this errata sheet. it's shooking to me that if this system by which abby did these recordings, where she used an app on her phone to do pre-interview recordings, the fact that this was internally transmitted on a fox news email address, that fox is claiming they never knew about it or didn't have it, i mean, come on. that doesn't pass any type of smell test in this case and that's the reason why the judge is so angry at fox and at fox's lawyers for trying to test his levels of credulity by saying we

just discovered this once abby grossberg did it nicole, to sum up. you have a potential jury pool listening to this and hearing this news. what did fox have to hide? exactly what you're playing right now. fox knew what they were saying was a lie and fox is probably going to be held liable for it. >> katie, i know we got into this a little bit yesterday. i know there's a legal strategy question that will drive what dominion does next but just as a what are the odds, what are the odds that the only person who had recordings that didn't get turned over is the one fox employee that's now suing fox? >> listen, i've seen worse odds, right, if i went to vegas. you and i both know there's stuff that exists. i don't subscribe to the idea because what's been released so far is so damning and crappy and is unredacted. there's the whole redacted portion of stuff that we haven't seen because fox doesn't want it out. you and i both know it's out

there. judge davis is saying i may appoint a special master to see how violative this is. jury selection is happening. you did hear dominion say, judge, we need a brief continuance. they're going forward and the judge says, ladies and gentlemen, once we seat this jury, 15 minutes later after a break, we're starting opening statements, and that's what the judge is prepared to do. >> you know, jim makes the point that it's so extraordinary and the former general counsel was here saying that it's hard to draw parallels like we try to do in our politics because this is so rarely the point that a defamation case sees. we're right in front of trial with rudolph giuliani bursting into public view there's not really a norm here to compare it to, but there is this echo of the trump era, right, that fox is acting, even

as it faces $1.6 billion liability or exposure in this suit of acting braze generally, of defying the rules and the norms of the discovery process, that is so on brand for the whole trump bubble and ecosystem. >> it's interesting you put it that way because it's not just so abhorrent in terms of the legal process the way a company would behave legally, it's actually abhorrent in way journalism or journalistic organization would behave. i think even though we're getting some legal bombshells today, tabloid worthy, rudy giuliani, the drama, it's fascinating, pulling back a little bit, i think what we're seeing here is how the sausage is made of fox news not actually behaving like a journalistic organization the kind of process that we are seeing fox news engaged in when reporting on dominion, if you can even call it that, frankly,

is not a normal reporting process. i think our media landscape has become so -- and political landscape so twisted in the united states, that so many americans, you know, think, well, fox is conservative, right wing msnbc and others are liberal no, what's actually happening is beyond the scope of the political spectrum to this is not journalism if you know something is inaccurate and you report it, that's not -- that's certainly not journalism how i was taught. let me tell you, i used to work at "the wall street journal" which happens to share a building with fox news and if -- we never would have reported that. we wouldn't report that at "the new york times." we wouldn't do it at msnbc why is fox behaving this way they're not acting like a journalism organization. they're not committing journalism that act is closer to propaganda than journalism and i think it's important that we kind of pull back and give people perspective on that today. >> yeah. i mean, jim, to mara's point,

it's not even fox's conduct as an institution as compared to the "new york times," wall street journal or msnbc, it's bart tir romo, dobbs, brett bair, the fox news employees that worked in what they call the brain, the internal fox news fact checking organ. they wanted to -- tucker carlson, sean hannity, get the fact checkers fired. they couldn't understand how they could still work there. suzanne scott has a body of information saying she'll deal with the shows there is so much motive revealed in what we've seen so far. katie makes the point all the time that we've seen just the tip of the iceberg because there are so many fox requested redactions what do you make -- we just know what's public facing the motive being the ratings the fear being they'll go to whatever the heck it's called, oan or news max, and the conduct being something they were all aware of

they were at war with themselves they were at war with brett bir and their own fact checkers. >> that's the fascinating thing. first of all, we see in the emails there's a lot of concern in the building about thrive val network, news max, which at the time was making a ratings run. incidentally, their ratings collapse they do not end up being the threat that everybody fears. so there's a fascinating dynamic here where the thing that's driving all of this ends up not being a thing. so you have that as an issue now you also have this dynamic in which news reporters do try to debunk the allegations, in some cases actually succeed in it, several cases, and the hosts and some management don't like that what they have told me, i wrote about this over the weekend is they started talking about respect. journalists started hearing they're not showing respect to the audience and that was taken by the journalists like this is obviously a no go, this fact

checking and their argument is, no, tone is the way they address the audience, which even if you take that at face value, it shows this concern about the audience that is overriding everything. now interestingly in this case, the judge has made it clear that he is separating out the brett bairs of the world, that fox can't point to these news reports that we're debunking because all that matters is the did he have if a -- defamatory information that was published the news anchors are the best people on the stand. how that factors into their defense is going to be rough because the judge is going to make it clear that has nothing to do with what lou dobbs said, what maria said, et cetera. >> it doesn't win the day. watching this with those people were lost. if you go back and read the fact

checks, there's nothing onally bill barr was more brutal than the fox news fact checkers. no one's going anywhere. there's a lot more to tell you including a bombshell accusation by attorney for abby grossberg that fox didn't drop the ball but has been, quote, hiding the ball all along we'll show you that. plus, the legal battle over access to abortion pills is now heading to the united states supreme court after a late-nigh, mifepristone and new reporting reveals that supreme court justice clarence thomas failed to disclose a financial relationship with a close friend and a right wing megadonor we've talked about and covered on this show before. we'll bring you all those showers when "deadline white house" comes back.

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i can only speculate as to what is in fox news's minds and their attorney's minds i'll tell you, they have a lot of lawyers lit at this gating the case in delaware the defamation case dominion has brought. you know, i think among them the practitioners there have over 150 years of experience and it's really unlikely that they really dropped the ball and just forgot to turn this obviously relevant evidence over.

it's more likely to think they've been hiding the ball as we've alleged all along. >> wow more dramatic to hear it from him. that is the lawyer who is representing abby grossberg, the former fox news producer responsible for her ability and more importantly doe mip on's ability to have access to those reco recordings now whatever the reason the recordings were not handed over to dominion lawyers long, long ago, they could help them prove what they need to prove as he keeps rooting our conversation back in the legal hurdle and that is actual malaise how much does the jury get to learn about how they came into evidence >> they don't get to know how the sausage is made. they get to hear the evidence, weigh the evidence, consider the evidence they don't get to knowwhy

dominion got the evidence is because fox was playing, hide the ball that being said, it doesn't diminish the substance, import just because dominion just got it i think what's fascinating is there's this through line that we kind of forget about because there's always big news breaking every single day it's all kind of related because abby grossberg has her lawsuits and that impacts dominion. dominion impacts smartmatic. that's for 2 point something billion and there's a shareholder derivative lawsuit brought in delaware chancery court by a shareholder suing rupert mourdock, lack land, et cetera for damages he perceives for his value of his investment in fox all of it is interrelated. all of the evidence can be mutually included and used and so in this instance the jury will hear that fox news was playing hide the ball with this

valuable evidence but at the end of the day does dominion care? that's the critical analysis. >> so grossberg as a witness will be on the stand will she be asked to explain how she came to be a witness for dominion and not fox, katie? >> no. she'll be asked what was your role at fox. what did you do? she's an insider that's always when you're a juror, you always want to hear from the people or person who are insiders that's like when we talk about michael cohen, you know what, we want to know what was really going on behind closed doors i don't know how much more closed door you can get by having abby grossberg who worked with maria bart iromo. when she felt the coercion that she stalock step she'll just be asked about that, but that really is important she's not an outis seider. she's not a stranger

albeit if you're fox lawyers on cross, you're like you're a disgruntled former employee, aren't you these were not secret recordings everybody knew at maria's show that she was doing these shows and that's why the fact that they were just turned over internally is the impactful part of this whole trial process. >> jim, in the sort of framework of your most recent reporting on the mourdocks, take me inside whether this -- fox's inability to make it look from the outside like everything is going according to plan. they had trump on looking and sounding as delusionally insane as ever and tucker carlson who we know thinks is a demonic force. what is the reality and what is projected mythology of business as usual over at fox news and fox corp >> well, i have to say, i'm not

sure they're quite calling it business as usual because this is a huge trial. they're going to have the biggest stars in the courtroom rupert mourdock, he's not out there doing tons of interviews much as some of us would like him to they're not pretending this isn't a big deal the question is, i think, for all of us is what does their coverage look like going forward? you just pointed out donald trump is back in the primary polls so he's going to be popular with the audience again. when faced with the same choices, what do they do even if they succeed with the jury, do they want to go through something like this again? one would think maybe there would be changes but, you know, we're getting at best a mixed picture of that. time will tell and this trial will tell. katie pointed out, there's another suit coming. we'll have to, sorry to say, wait and see on this one >> this lawsuit has always for

me provided these really sort of twin towers, if you will, of news i'm fascinated to learn about first amendment law from katie and jim but as a former republican, rupert mourdock's news is unrecognizable my viewers will say it was always demonic i think it's called cannibalizing where they're willing to sacrifice something they were once proud of. they were proud of their editorial in years when they didn't hold the white house. they viewed themselves as, you know, really being on the offense in terms of framing the conversation and as a business opportunity. so what's interesting is how much they work to be part of the coup plot, how participatory they are in something in an old fox news business model wasn't even really good for them. and the other is how derisive and dismissive they are of any news organization's shining

assets it's decision desk they get the election right and get it right first >> it is sad to see them ditch it the journalism and hopefully v viewers and they talked about it and they got the part of their audience >> the organization and there are hines that you cannot cross.

it's not only sad and diminishing to them as a brand and to reporters who work there who are doing good journalism but actually it's also really sad because part of our mission as journalists is to support democracy and that doesn't make you biased, that makes you a journalist in the united states as part of a western democracy and i think they've lost their way. >> it's such a bigger thought to sort of end on, that they only get to do what they do because they live in a democracy >> that's right. >> they live in an autocracy, an organization so rooted in as a business model and editorial choice propaganda. >> but that's part of the challenge with democracies sometimes your democratic institutions, you know, can be hijacked and used against democracy. >> thank you all so much jim, katie, mara sticks around longer. up next, the new chapter in the fight for abortion health care after a ruling by a federal

appeals court significantly and dramatically curbs access to the abortion pills we'll tell you about it next so people think they're open. surprise. [ laughs ] [ horn honks, muffled talking ] -can't hear you, jerry. -sorry. uh, yeah, can we get a system where when someone's bike is in the shop, then we could borrow someone else's? -no! -no! or you can get a quote with america's number-one motorcycle insurer and maybe save some money while you're at it. all in favor of that. [ horn honking ] there's a lot of buttons and knobs in here.

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curbed access to it by banning, sending it through the mail and shrinking the window when it can be prescribed to women from ten weeks to seven weeks the stakes of what happens next could not be higher, not just for women in states that have outright banned abortion or heavily restricted it in the wake of the dobbs decision, but for women all across our country. a study released late last year found that medication abortions now make up the majority, 53%, of abortion procedures the biden administration warns that if the fifth circuit decision is allowed to stand, it could up end the entire medical system in our country. in a statement vice president harris says this, quote, if this decision stands, no medication, from chemotherapy drugs to asthma medicine to blood pressure pills to insulin would be safe from attacks joining our coverage the dean of howard university law school, danielle holly and dr. libby roy, medical director of housing works.

i want to ask, i know this is not upholding the crazy amarillo judge's decision but it does dramatically and immediately limit to when most women don't know they're pregnant. i want to first understand from you, danielle, the legal impact of the circuit court's ruling. >> so the fifth circuit court of appeals essentially issued a stay of the district court judge's opinion as to the fda's original approval of mifepristone what they did do, as you mentioned at the top was there was 2016 regulations passed by the fda including allowing them to be prescribed up to ten weeks and also be allowed to be sent in the mail. so the fifth circuit's opinion essentially says mifepristone is still available, however, it is not available after seven weeks and it is also not available by

mail those are some significant curbs. i think what the vice president said is exactly right, that one of the crucial questions that we have here is whether these plaintiffs, whether this association really should have been able to bring this litigation at all. do they have standing? and the fifth circuit by allowing them to be heard on this 2016 regulations is saying that they do actually have the standing to be heard on these questions and that is a very serious and dangerous opinion by the fifth circuit panel. >> i mean, danielle, what did we do i guess more broadly about ultra, ultra conservative judges reaching into a process? i guess it just reveals how limiting norms are, right? so it's only a norm that has capped any ultra conservative judge or group from reaching in saying, hey, viagra leads to

more pregnancy too, only makes sense, i don't know that or menopause drugs are not necessary. why shouldn't women sweat to death in their bed i mean, what do we do about the broader crisis of ultra conservative ideological judges reaching into the fda process? >> you know, this is really a constitutional question. you know, the idea that you must have a cognizable injury to bring litigation is part of our constitution, is part of article 3 of our constitution. that means when an association, these anti-abortion organizations bring this kind of litigation, they are really saying they want judges to decide what is typically in the hands of the political branches. so congress has given the fda the power to decide whether a drug is safe and effective, and if judges begin to encroach, as we've seen from this district court judge and from the fifth circuit opinion, if they begin to encroach on the political

branches, there really is no limiting principle the judges become essentially political actors and they are not allowing the political branches, the executive branch through the fda and congress who empowered them, to do what congress has authorized the fda to do. >> dr. roy, where does this leave doctors and their female patients >> first of all, nicole, it's so lovely to see you. secondly, thank you so much for talking about this critical health topic that is going to affect millions of women in the united states, including many of my underserved marginalized patients, many of them are women of color who will be disproportionately impacted by this as a physician who happens to be a woman and woman of color i find be this to be shocking, unlawful and highly irresponsible. his unprecedented ruling invalidated the food & drug administration's approval of

mifepristone, a medication approved by the fda over two decades ago that's been used by over 5 million women in the united states to safely and effectively terminate a pregnancy, as well as other clinical indications so mifepristone is also used to treat miscarriage, which by the way is highly common over 30% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. it's also used to treat high blood pressure and cushing's syndrome i want to make sure your audience, nicole, understands is fda approval is based on extensive research and review of scientific studies and unanimous support of independent experts and as dr. joshua sharpstein pointed out, mifepristone retains 22 years after its initial approval the support of multiple major professional and medical organizations. so this is a big deal. it's going to be a major problem

for millions of patients in the united states, nicole. >> mara, there is a piece of me that feels that every time we come on the air the texas vigilante law made by mr. mitchell was basically crafted to duck and bob and weave around the judges and implement it in texas to make its way through some of these same circuits and become the law of the land there is a practice in national security where you red team what the adversary will do. it feels like women's groups, and it's not just democrats, i mean, independents and a majority of republicans, agree that the right wing fringe has taken over health care policy and politics in america, but it feels like now is the moment, maybe even yesterday, to red team how far they will go because it appears there is no bottom. >> well, we knew that it wouldn't stop with dobbs i think for a time people were suggesting that that might be

alarmist, but it is one of those moments where you think, well, what's the worst case scenario here for women and just as a woman myself, it's head spinning. i mean, stepping outside of my role as a journalist for a moment, it's head spinning and i often struggle to come to terms with the fact that my 5-year-old god-daughter has fewer rights today than i had 30 years ago. i don't understand it, and i think that actually gets to the heart of not just the moral but also the political issue that the republicans are having right now because so many of these state laws that are -- and these proposals across the country, but also this kind of action from a far right judge, you know, it's not seen by the majority of the american population as protecting life. what it's seen as is an attack on women, on health care because that's what it is. >> i think the women who have made themselves some of the faces of these policies are women who almost lost their lives in -- either in miscarriages or because they

couldn't receive the health care they needed for pregnancies they very much desperately wanted this is not -- >> right. >> -- pro life policy. >> that's right. there's a larger context in which women still earn less than men. it's still hard to get access to contraceptives across the country. it's still expensive to have a child. it's still dangerous to have a child in the united states where a maternal mortality rate is among the highest in the western world. so i think in that context women see this for what it is, which is an attack on people's rights, on our rights. it's not about, you know, just abortion. >> right i mean -- >> it's clear. >> -- some men look at that for the numbers and the results in elections. men are looking at 5-year-old daughters. i don't want them to have to grow up in this world. we need all of you to stick around there's been news that's been broken since we've been having this very conversation out of the state of florida that state's house has just passed a six-week abortion

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while the nelson's play lead in their own adventure, 150 years in the making. there's a story in every piece of land. run with us and start telling yours. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? we're always working in evon a project.land. while loading up our suv, one extra push and... crack! so, we scheduled at safelite.com. we were able to track our technician and knew exactly when he'd arrive. we can keep working! ♪ synth music ♪ >> woman: safelite came to us. >> tech: hi, i'm kendrick. >> woman: replaced our windshield, and installed new wipers to protect our new glass. that's service on our time. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ covid is still out there, and so are you. and you could be out there with fading protection but an updated vaccine restores your protection so you can keep doing you. i was born here, i'm from here,

and i'm never leaving here. imma new york hotel. yea i'm tall. 563 feet and 2 inches. i'm on top of the world. i'm looking for someone who needs a weekend in the city. who likes being in the middle of it all. you hungry? i know a place... and a few others nearby. it's the city that never sleeps. but hey, if you need a last minute spot, i've got you covered. let's link up at hotels.com [ chanting ] it's the immediate reaction to the news we just told you about, the breaking news the state of florida, at least its legislature, passed a draconian ban on all abortions after six weeks. the vast majority of women that

seek abortions don't know they are pregnant until that point. the governor will sign this bill into law democrats there oppose the bill but were outnumbered by republican super majorities in both chambers. dr. roy, tell me what a six week ban does to women's choices and access to health care. >> as you accurately pointed out, many women don't know they are pregnant at that point this is -- i don't -- i continue to be appalled by the politicalization of things that are health issues. you and i talked multiple times about how the covid-19 pandemic was politicized. that led to adverse outcomes, including fatalities for millions of people let's be really clear, the

decision of how a pregnancy is managed should be a discussion between two people only. the person who is pregnant and their doctor or medical provider nobody else. not a politician, policymakers and most certainly not a judge or in this case a governor who, by the way, happened to be white men who have no medical training they have no right to be making these decisions that clearly impact the health of women and any person who becomes pregnant. as a doctor who has undergone years of highly specialized, intense training, people like me, i am entitled and i have the responsibility of making these decisions. but certainly not people with zero medical training. it's appalling and egregious it needs to stop >> i will get to the politics in a minute i'm not sure of much anymore, but i'm sure a super majority of women in this country will not accept living in a country like

this the power and force that's stacking the supreme court represented on the right for 50 years of conservative politics, that's a plate shifting violently under everybody. if you don't know what they are, you haven't asked or listened. what legal barriers stand in the way of right wing governors seeking to win primaries in places like iowa, pasting draconian laws like this >> there's really not much that stands in their way. when we talked about protecting roe and about the importance of roe v. wade, this is exactly what we were talking about this is what dobbs has unleashed. in the supreme court's decision in that case has made women and other people who are able to be pregnant, it has made them at

the mercy of state legislators and governors like what we just saw happen in florida. there's really very little protection for women now after the overturning of roe versus wade i think there will be political consequences over time the notion that a woman's vital health care is something that is not protected under our constitution is something to me that is just unthinkable we are seeing the real life results of what the supreme court did in the dobbs decision. >> the real life results changes everything for families. it will change places where if you have the privilege of making a choice about where you to go college, places where you can't leave the state to receive reproductive health care, maybe viewed differently there will be shifts, as i mentioned, in our politics they take time women will die and suffer right away

>> women, families, children it's hard not to think about the down line consequences of the impact this is going to have on poverty as well. i would also just say that i think there is a concern or there should be in states like florida about the economic impact as well, not just because there are going to be women who are being forced to carry children so there's that. if i am a ceo and i'm not but if i were, i would think twice about asking my employees to work in a state like florida during the civil rights movement, this was an ongoing issue. that's the reason, in fact, that coca-cola is in atlanta and not selma, alabama when you think about it like that, i think this is a short-term strategy by far right wing individuals who represent a tiny portion of the american people and do not, in fact, reflect the larger will of the

voters so, of course, we also have a democracy issue here these super majorities, which have been gerrymandered to look like this over time and over many decades, they do not actually reflect the will of the american people. to your point, women voters, black voters, ultimately i think those voters are going to come together with others and let their voices be heard. >> young voters. i have fewer rights than my mom. it's an unbelievable state of affairs in these united states no one better to talk to than the three of you thank you so much. coming up in the next hour of "deadline white house," a big part of the story is the role of the supreme court. there are new details on the ties between a conservative billionaire and supreme court justice clarence thomas. it turns out that their relationship went well beyond

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trinet. people matter. when you lose that trust, especially in the institution that i'm in, it changes the institution fundamentally. you begin to welcome over your shoulder it's like kind of an infidelity that you can explain it but you can't undo it. >> that we agree it's 5:00 in new york. following the leak of the draft supreme court opinion that

ultimately overturned nearly 50 years of precedent, and took away a woman's right to make decisions about her own body and health care in the united states of america, justice clarence thomas was all about how important it is to preserve the court's integrity, how all about trust. it was vital to the health of the nation's highest court in recent days there's new journalism, new reporting that shined a light on how thomas did not obey that standard when it came to his own conduct and his own ethics and his own finances. in bombshell reporting, they revealed his friendship with harlan crowe it included them being gifted luxury vacations like trips on crowe's super yacht. now in a piece that broke just this afternoon, they are advancing the reporting and reporting out the first known instance of money flowing from

crowe to justice thomas. the reporting says that in 2014, one of crowe's companies purchased a home in georgia where thomas' mother was living. the crowe company brought it for more than $133,000 justice thomas, his mother and the family of thomas' late brother, according to a state document and a deed. the purchase put crowe in an unusual position he now owned the house where the justice's elderly mother was living soon after the sale was completed, contractors began work on tens of thousands ofpro. renovations were a repaired roof and fence and gates. just like with the gifted trips

aboard yachts and private planes, thomas did not disclose this purchase. quote, a federal disclosure law passed after watergate requires justices and other officials to disclose the details of most real estate sales over $1,000. justice thomas did not respond to detailed questions from propublica crowe said he bought the house to preserve it posterity joining us, former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general harry lipman is here with me at the table, former top state department official rick st st stengel. tell me how you advanced this

financial relationship >> i think you have summed it quite nicely this is the first instance of a direct financial transaction between harlan crowe, the republican mega donor, and clarence thomas. that was property that crowe bought from thomas and thomas' mother and late brother. it appears to be one of the properties is the house that thomas' mother appears to live in crowe subsequently, as you said, spruced it up. >> i guess i have a million different questions. why couldn't -- it reveals so much why didn't thomas plan financially to shore up and improve his own mother's home? if you need money to buy your mother's home, is there -- are there leads as tothomases ha

that the crowes helped meet? >> we have questioned. we asked justice thomas detailed questions and have not heard back, which was initially his response to our first story as well >> the tax documents reveal that the deed went from thomas, his mother and his late brother, to being owned by crowe's companies. do they still own it >> yeah. they appear to still own it. they also bought the surrounding properties and actually other properties -- they bought surrounding properties that the thomas family owned. they bought other properties in the neighborhood essentially appear to have sparked a sprucing up of the neighborhood >> i'm all for neighborhood sprucing up where anyone's mother lives why wouldn't -- what is thomas'

office or clerk or lawyer saying about why he didn't reveal this? >> i wish we had answers to that they are very good questions we went to ethics experts and experts who have -- are very familiar with disclosure laws. they said it's clear here. the law requires explicitly the disclosure of financial -- i'm sorry, of real estate transactions that's what this was it wasn't disclosed. >> something i have learned -- your reporting goes a long way in making this clear -- there are so few ethical -- they are not even laws but policies that bind the justices on the supreme court. they really are in a separate category from every other federal judge or certainly congress or the executive branch for thomas to not have abided by

the few ethics guidelines that exist seems extraordinary. is there a sense that -- have you uncovered any leads on what the motive -- is it just impunity >> we have no idea in terms of thomas' intentions and why he would have failed to disclose this frankly, he hasn't answered our questions. again, i wish we had answers to that i think a lot of people have those questions. >> eric, it's clear your stories are being read by the congress and by the chief justice can you just take us through the current state of reaction on capitol hill we had senator klobuchar saying -- she wouldn't answer my question about whether she would call thomas and roberts to testify. but it's clear that the reporting and the revelations and the investigation into these clear violations, again, of the very weak ethics laws that do

exist, have lit something under congress can you tell us the state of what you understand the senate judiciary committee's interest to be in the ethics here >> sure. senator durbin, who heads it, just tweeted out the story calling it astonishing and calling on chief justice roberts to investigate i think it's fair to say that there's mounting pressure. that's just the latest example that i happened to see before i hopped on here >> i want to bring harry in. my only sort of comparison is working at the white house where you can't -- a reporter can't buy a press officer, which i was, a soda. you can't receive anything i know the judiciary is bound by slightly different ethics. but nothing in the spirit of an ethics guideline for someone whose salary is paid for by all of us. i pay clarence thomas' salary.

he is paid by the taxpayer there's nothing in the spirit of that that would have it be above board for a republican mega don'te donor to buy three homes, one occupied by a justice's mother >> there's nothing in the letter let alone the spirit it's supreme court justices alone are in the position to ignore it with impunity. this one is indefensible it's very suspect that he is getting all this from someone with clear political agenda. the highest -- he didn't simply not disclose it. there was -- the story from crowe is -- he was giving a tangible financial benefit to thomas in the form of a much improved house for his mother, which it looks like she still lives.

there should be enforceable guidelines that apply to the supreme court as they apply to everyone else. this, i think, is quite rank it figures to be a taint -- thomas entered office with a taint. i think this will be part of his legacy as well this one is really -- it defies any explanation. i think it's something that will stick to him if that's any solace to the basic fact that he will not be brought down in any serious way as a result of this legal violation. >> eric, is there any evidence the taxes were garbled or not filed appropriately for purchase of a home with a clear benefit of -- >> well, we don't know the answers to that, because taxes are private. we don't have justice thomas' taxes. we do know that harlan crowe has

been paying property taxes appropriately on this thomas family home. we don't know, by the way, if crowe is charging thomas' mother rent or not. >> harry, what questions -- since we have all -- because of the lawsuits, we have become armchair tax law experts what questions -- what would you think crowe and thomas' lawyers are doing today? >> for starters, they are thinking about georgia law as well as federal law. it's small potatoes for crowe that i have to expect -- what he did was take it over i'm sure -- i expect he is paying the taxes that's not the problem the problem is the huge contribution we were on vacations that doubled thomas' annual salary.

that's unsettling. but the non-disclosure is really rank does crowe himself bear any liability? my best guess is no. this is going to be scrutinized. it's remarkable reporting. this has been an open site for many years and nobody has come up with it who knows what other shoes that are left to drop >> let's be clear. he bought a compound, right? that's what's been described multiple houses, multiple improvement, which has set off an improvement of the area great for the area but none of this was disclosed by the justice. >> no. in fact, i would -- crowe says he is doing it because he wants to create a museum there for justice thomas it could be him putting money in

justice thomas' pocket that's what it looks like. i don't care about crowe's motives. it's about justice thomas' i impropriety or appearance of it. the thing that i find crazy is the original propublica story was ten days's t maybe i should tell people about this now >> update my discloser. >> get in front of this. he has such a feeling of impunity that the laws don't apply to him, which is the most awful thing. members of the supreme court say the laws don't apply to me they need to have an actual ethics code for them the other thing i want to say is, this is fantastic reporting. this is why we have the first amendment.

to protect news organizations from exposing the flaws and unethical violations of public figures. if you didn't have the first amendment, the government and supreme court would not have it published. people should remember that and value that that's why it's important we have it. >> it's dispassionate. it doesn't get ahead of where the facts brought us today it's not without a consequence it's not without a consequence that the justices have made very clear they feel very sad about that is the collapsing public faith in the court 75% of the americans trusted it in 2000. in 2022, 47% there's no -- all institutions are facing headwinds but there's no ininstitution in american life that has plunged that much min 22 years. >> i think the cause is the perception that the supreme court is motivated by politics

that their decisions are political. there's the old phrase from when we were growing up, supreme court justices read the newspaper, too people feel now they are making decisions based on political affiliations, people who supported them getting the nominations and it's not pure like it should be. >> they are not feelings roe and casey ar justices appointed by republicans and democrats. >> there should be term limits one way that they would get back some of that respect is to actually have some sense of impartiality, which it doesn't have now all these relations about justice thomas is not going to do anything for the reverence for the american people have for the supreme court. >> i wasn't sure we would do

this or not. i am going to do it. here is clarence thomas about -- it speaks for itself watch. >> i think we are in danger of destroying the institutions that are required for a free society. you can't have a civil society, a free society without a stable legal system you can't have one without stability and things like property or interpretation and impartial judiciary. and i have been in this business long enough to know just how fragile it is. >> someone that is moved around the world on a private jet -- i don'tknow what a super ouyacht is sounds like the kind of thing russian oligarchs roll around in

it impugns anything he has said about the integrity of the body in which he serves. >> no argument there he talked about institutions like property. what you really need is faith and credibility in the institutions themselves. so many of these wounds are self-inflicted i agree with you about the grievous nature and the way it came to pass on some of their decisions. but his fundamental arrogance and contempt for the basic goal of ethics rules, which is to give accountability. if he wanted to be clear, i get this money from a conservative activist judge it for what it is worth, that would be one thing. in fact, he not only doesn't disclose but tries to conceal. really, really bad >> it's not disconnected from justice soe sotomayor's statemet

what she was saying is that the appearance of a republican led legislature passing an abortion ban for the purpose of getting it in front of this makeup of supreme court justices would put on to the court the stench of politics unfortunately, i'm sure in her own view, that is true your reporting furthers her thesis about the stefnch of politics and a lack of ethics and disdain for the few ethical boundaries that are around these nine justices. what are you hearing from people who are rooting for justice roberts to do something that they all seem to care a lot about, which is improve the court's standing in the public view >> we have heard a tremendous sense of outrage about justice

thomas' conduct. increasing calls for the court to do something, which is to say the chief justice roberts, and for the senate to do something also, there have been calls for the doj to investigate there are paths to some accountability we will see whether they happen or not >> where do you put -- do you think they are reaching a breaking point not by our standards that was reached a long time ago. based on their public utterances, they expressed sadness the public insn't into them anymore. >> i wish i could be more optimistic it goes back to what we have been talking about, these are norms that are not laws. the chief justice seems tohave done nothing ethical treatment of the supreme

court -- it's not going to change >> right we can do an hour on how inadequate norms are for the times in which we live eric, to you and your colleagues for bringing this new reporting and this new revelation, thank you very much. harry and rick, stick around the january 6 committee said it best. the big lie was actually and also a big ripoff. new reporting on how jack smith is now digging deep and investigating just how the twice impeached disgraced and now indicted ex-president used false claims about the 2020 election to scam and rip off his followers. that's not the only legal peril coming into focus and facing trump today. he was back in new york to sit for a second deposition in the fraud lawsuit brought by new york attorney general letitia james. breaking news in the investigation into the leaked intelligence documents the fbi arrests a 21-year-old

air national guardsman they say is tied to the leak. "deadline white house"on ctinues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? we're always working on a project. while loading up our suv, one extra push and... crack! so, we scheduled at safelite.com. we were able to track our technician and knew exactly when he'd arrive. we can keep working! ♪ synth music ♪ >> woman: safelite came to us. >> tech: hi, i'm kendrick. >> woman: replaced our windshield,

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throughout the committee's investigation, we found evidence that the trump campaign and its surrogates misled donors as to where their funds would go and what they would be used for. not only was there the big lie, there was the big ripoff donors deserve to know where their friend funds are going they deserve better than what president trump and his team did.

>> exposing how the twice impeached ex-president not only lied to his supporters about an election he knew he had lost, but was using those lies to take advantage of them financially and to ask for and gain their money. turns out jack smith is also interested in that groundwork that was laid out by the select committee, which included a revelation from the committee's senior investigative council t that trump made more than $250 million between election day and january 6 when he was asking for money. "the washington post" pulls back the curtain in reporting on smith's probe into how trump used his false claims to fund-raise millions of dollars the fund-raising prong of the investigation is focused on money raised during the period between november 3, 2020 and the

end of trump's time in office on january 20, 2021 prosecutors are said to be interested many whether anyone associated with the fund-raising operation violated wire fraud laws they make it illegal to make false representations to swindle people out of money over email "the washington post" reports an unreported subpoena, jack smith's office sent subpoenas to trump advisors and former campaign aides, republican open tif operatives and other consultants. they have heard testimony from some of the figures in front of a washington grand jury. also in front of the washington grand jury today was john radcliffe. joining our coverage, jackie alamini. mary mccord joins our coverage

harry and rick are still with us jackie, take us through what you and your colleagues are reporting. >> we put together this piece based on these new subpoenas jack smith issued as part of one of the prongs of the investigation. we had eight sources confirm to us that the new focus and strengthened focus is on the issue of the grist following the moneyand trying to lock at this period of time between november 3rd and the end of when trump left office in january of 2021 and the money that was raised during that time period, how it was raised, if it was raised on fraudulent claims, much of it which was, who approved those claims and whether or not the people that were associated with that

fund-raising operation violated wire fraud this, i think, to a lot of the january 6 congressional staff seems like a no brainer for prosecutors at the department of justice who actually -- we heard from a few of them yesterday after this piece came out that this idea that this would always be the easiest and most clear-cut way to prosecute some of the crimes with regard to trump's efforts to overturn the results of the election, but what the special counsel is looking at right now is exploring this idea of whether or not the people who actually approved of the ads that said the election was stolen had acknowledged in some separate forum or manner that their fund-raising pitches were based on lies. that's going to be key in terms of being able to charge this crime. >> mary, i remember reporting on

our air shortly after the election was called for president joe biden that trump knew he lost and was raising money for his legal defenses this was someone in contact with trump and his campaign team. i don't think there was any doubt from inside trump world that this was all about the grist. with trump, it often is. that's how he made lemonade out of his arraignment last week in new york what is your sense, from the outside or any intuition about what's happening on the inside, as to whether or not jack smith is preparing to prosecute a conspiracy >> well, you know, this is sort of classic white collar prosecution 101. follow the money i was very relieved to hear the reporting, see the reporting in "washington post" that this is an area of inquiry i think -- i don't know it shows that he is closer to charges than a week ago.

but it is an area where there's a lot of precedent if the facts establish that there was wire fraud here, it is something that is very well-known it's not novel it's not unprecedented there's abundant cases like this, including the case that was brought against steve bannon and others back regarding their fraudulent fund-raising for money to build the wall. that was a lie they didn't use all the money to build the wall they were indicted for that. some of them pleaded guilty. then, of course, former president trump pardoned steve bannon before he went to trial the other thing that i think is important to think about here with respect to the facts is that even if there wasn't sufficient evidence once jack smith and his team acquire the emails and the communications and the documents and other records of all the conversations about these ads, what was known

to be the facts and what was being put in the ads, even if there's insufficient evidence to say the people approving the ads really knew the election wasn't stolen and nevertheless claimed a rigged election, even if they think, leeway for fund-raising for a campaign, there's other things that are likely ly false one was the claim it was used to create an election definance fu - defense fund that didn't happen the other was the money would be used for recounts and efforts like that to challenge the election that is not what happened. i don't think that was ever what was intended to happen i guess we will see what the documents show instead, that money was just simply used for campaigning. there's other ways of showing fraud than just, did you truly believe that the election had been rigged, or did you know

that there was no substantial evidence of fraud in the election >> gifting mark meadows, now a key witness, a million dollars, probably not the intent of the money raised mary, i wanted to ask you what you think john radcliffe could be helpful with. cassidy hutchinson's testimony got pretty close to illuminating what people like john radcliffe thought of the entire period, it was a national security threat, it was dangerous was hutchinson's testimony what do you think the committee wants to know or the special counsel wants to know from radcliffe? >> radcliffe was in a national security position. putting aside what we have been talking about are respect to fraudulent fund-raising, here we are getting at the core of what was known to the president about the potential pore violence. this is something i've been interested in.

what was he getting briefed on every day as part of his intelligence briefing? was he being told about the type of planning that was going on across the country by his supporters, including his most violent supporters, and including private, unlawful militias like the only keepers, the proud boys what was being briefed to him? him being president trump, by his national security advisors, what was the level of his knowledge about how his statements were being perceived by those of his most strident supporters as calls to action and how likely they were to actually respond violently i think that's one of the things that jack smith and his team will want to know from john radc radcliffe. >> harry, on this topic of foreknowledge of this knowledge. we know from reporting that

robert o'brien, the national security advisor in the final months of the trump presidency, knew by january 5th that there was, quote, a chance for violence on the hill they had some real specificity with what they knew was going to happen ahead of time. >> all te bureau as well trump was notorious for tuning that out i agree with everything mary said two other points it shows that smith is not only leaving no stone unturned, he is turning up new stones. this is a whole different kind of theory from what the committee presented. it dovetails so well with his main effort, because he is really going right at knowledge by the people who are doing the fund-raising that the whole thing is a big lie for one, that would be important in itself. for two, it would be very implausible that they know this

is wrong and trump is innocent of it. i was impressed with the aggressiveness and ingenuity of this whole new realm of inquiry, which as mary says, as a fraud case, totally straightforward. you lie about why you are raising the money. there's wire fraud right there >> unlike steve bannon, there's no one to pardon trump yet, i guess. jackie, we know about it from your reporting thank you for joining us mary, harry and rick, stick around when we come back, donald trump under only in the fraud lawsuit. what could go wrong now? that story after a quick break yt -to go bowling with us tonight? -yeah. no. there's my little marzipan! [ laughs ] oh, my daughter gives the best hugs! we're just passing through on our way to the jazz jamboree. [ imitates trumpet playing ] and we wanted to thank america's number-one motorcycle insurer -for saving us money. -thank you.

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and public pronouncements is something that only guilty people like mobsters do. oh, well this was today trump raising his fist as he left trump tower for his second deposition letitia james accuses trump and the trump organization of more than 200 instances of fraud and manipulation of property values. a trial is scheduled for october. we are back with harry, mary and rick it has been a minute since it came out but i was reading through letitia james' lawsuit in the footnotes are answers to a lot of the questions she has amassed so much evidence she seems to have ma etabolized all of the supreme court rulings. i wonder what you make of this as a quieter, a lower profile legal threat to the

ex-president >> yes, it is that remember, all that he has been -- allen weisselberg conviction, i assume that gives them a through line, inflation of values, hiding of income, not declaring of taxes what it is -- talking about the last story and this, there is this movement all around trump jack smith seems to be connecting a lot of the dots i wish he had been appointed two years ago. she's doing civil cases in manhattan. there's umpteen cases that were not brought against the trumps over the years, the churnildrend things like that a lot of this is tieing up things in process, including the former conviction. trump's attorney said that he was not going to take the fifth. we don't know whether that's true that must be the nightmare of any attorney he is a serial liar. he can't except get in trouble when he talks.

>> someone said to me when mueller was looking into trump and his comampaign that he woul lay his body on railroad tracks before he would let donald trump speak in person with robert mueller. he is incabpable of talking without lying. >> it's interesting, this strategy part could be that he wants to avoid letitia james being able to make any sort of negative use of his assertion of the fifth amendment at trial this is a civil fraud case, not a criminal matter. the rules are a little bit different. in a criminal case, you -- a prosecutor cannot tell the jury that the defendant had taken the fifth amendment. that is telling the jury the defendant -- what he says would inkrip nature himself. the rules are different in civil trials it's not clear she -- it's not clear she would have been able to do that even if he would continue to take the fifth

there's more leeway for that some of this might be strategy he might think and his lawyer might think, maybe he can get away with just sort of saying, i don't recall, i wasn't there, i was busy being president, i don't know, without actually taking the fifth that's risky it is donald trump as rick said. he gets aggravated i'm sure he will get aggravated during depositions when he is being asked questions and to keep him from going ahead and just dishing up a bunch of stuff, some of which could hurt him very much, i think it will be hard for him to resist that >> i mean, harry, there is -- you have been instrumental in sort of articulating the difference but it's a forum that trump the politician and trump the tv showman in his mind is not well suited for that's trump the witness in a case that involves him and his alleged wrongdoing

>> to say the least. he is a disaster, which is why i will believe that he didn't take the fifth when it's confirmed. yes, there's -- what mary says is right there's a strategic reason think of some of the questions really, you thought your apartment was three times as big as it was? you put this valuation down? really, mr. trump? you say you know nothing and yet you signed it. we will see when it's all done to your initial question, this is really the motherload of information. it's his financial information, the brand. another day, another deposition. he strikes me like a wounded animal in the open he is lurching from legal challenge to legal challenge whatever he says on the campaign trail, he is really ill-suited

to pary under the rules of evidence, starting with his near inability to testify this is quite a display of weakness from the former president. >> harry, thank you very much. mary and rick, stick around. the fbi arrests an air national guardsman in connection with the leak of sensitive intelligence documents. we will bring you latest after a quick break. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools, and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. moving forward with node- positive breast cancer is overwhelming.

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a major development today to tell you about in the case of the leaked classified documents. it's a case and story that has rattled the country's national security community merrick garland announcing the fbi arrested a 21-year-old man without incident in massachusetts in connection with the department's investigation into how the classified documents were released on the internet according to "the new york times" reporting, he is a massachusetts air national guardsman. he is tied to an online group where the leaked documents first appeared law enforcement had been searching for who was responsible. it included some documents barely 40 appeared law enforcement had been searching for who was responsible for the leaked documents, of which some were barely 40 days old at the time of the leak.

mary, the obvious question is how does the 21-year-old get his hands on state secrets about the war in ukraine >> first of all, i just want to say, this is probably the quickest i've ever seen a national security leak investigation resolve with an arrest we had many under way when i was in the assistant attorney general's office for national security, and usually -- particularly with documents like this that many people had access to, it's like a needle in a hay stack, but this was remarkably fast, and i think it's because of what he was doing with them, sharing them with a small group in his discord chat. but how he had access remains unclear based on his status. what i've heard in the reporting is that he was sort of a tech analyst or a tech worker in the air national guard, and that wouldn't necessarily say to me he should have access to this.

however, sometimes i guess when you've got someone who is working on the systems, right, literally technologically working on the different classified systems -- because for example in my office when i was at the department, we had entirely separate systems for unclassified, classified up to the secret level, classified up to the top secret level. that's a lot of just technology and computers and wiring that has to take place for this to work smoothly. it's possible that he had access because of his role doing something with technology. it's also possible that he got unauthorized access, perhaps by people leaving open their work stayings in these computers. like, none of this -- i don't have any information about this right now. i haven't seen any reporting on that, and those are all things that the investigators -- the fbi and department of justice will be looking into if he was not himself actually cleared,

didn't have the actual clearances for access to information he did in fact access and did in fact transmit. >> rick, the journalism is incredible he oversaw a private-on line group called thug shaker central, mostly young men and teenagers came together over a shared interest of guns, racist comments and -- >> it's not an espionage case, but there's no universe whereby a 21-year-old member of the massachusetts air national guard should have access to any classified information, much less top secret information. the head of the massachusetts air national guard shouldn't i mean, the problem in washington is always not what's illegal, the problem is what's legal. there are too clearances, too many people have access to top secret information too much is declared as classified information every scandal like this we have had, going back to wikileaks, et cetera, was about people having too much access, and that's the

reform that needs to be done. >> thank you so much for spending time with us today. a quick break for us we'll be right back.

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