revamping sanitation efforts in city schools, and now her first order of business, cutting off the rat's food supply, and she's putting them on notice >> rats and the conditions that support their thriving will no longer be tolerated in new york city there's a new sheriff in town. and with your help, we'll send those rats packing >> she will make $155,000 a year for tackling the problem, but most new yorkers agree a rat free city is priceless may i just say, while ooi've ner seen a rat that big in times square, i might have seen one that big on the subway system. good luck. that's going to do it for us this hour. make sure to join us for "chris jansing reports" every weekday, 1:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc "katy tur reports" is right now. ♪ abortion is going back to the supreme court a year after

roe v. wade was overturned the justice department says the high court needs to weigh in again to iron out the details of its decisions to give the issue back to the state. doj has filed an emergency application asking the justices to strike down a texas ruling that essentially band the abortion pill mifepristone nationwide we're going to explain what doj is arguing and how soon the court might decide on hearing the case and what happens if it does not decide immediately. we'll also get into what happened overnight in florida. governor ron desantis signed a bill making abortion illegal after just six weeks well before many women, as you know, have any idea they are pregnant desantis's new ban did not come with fanfare, no news conference, no on camera pats on the back the only announcement was this photo right here, posted to social media at 11:04 p.m.

the politics of abortion have not been a winner for the gop, and polling suggests it will be an albatross around governor desantis's neck, if the governor decides to run to be president so why do it joining me now is nbc news senior legal correspondent, laura jarrett. also with me is nbc news correspondent ali vitali who's in charleston, south carolina with an exclusive interview with tim scott. let's start first with abortion and the supreme court. laura, explain to me what the doj is asking the supreme court to do? >> the justice department and the manufacturer of this pill mifepristone are essentially asking the supreme court to freeze everything in place right now, to stop this looming deadline that is on everybody's mind when the clock strikes midnight tonight, part of that texas ruling will go into effect, and so all they're saying is supreme court, please make sure you take that off of the sort of parade of horribles that could happen, if you will,

and then allow the place to play out. now, the justices may do nothing, in which case, as of midnight central time tonight, the part of the texas ruling that has to do with sort of the ways the fda had tried to make this easier to get, like getting it through the mail and not having to see a doctor, all of those are now blocked. as of midnight tonight, unless the supreme court steps in however, you also have a federal court that has said the impact opposite, and that court has told the fda, maintain the status quo, do not make any changes to the drug. because of that tension between these two decisions, that's why, again, you see the justice department saying supreme court, you have to step in and do something right no. >> this is fallout from the decision to overturn roe v. wade all of these cases have now gone to state court or the state to decide, and now there are all of these cases being brought in those states, and they're getting the dueling decisions in the red state and blue state on the issue of abortion. when the supreme court does

decide this, do we have an idea of how they might hear this case >> i think what the most likely scenario is, and i preface in with anything could happen the most likely scenario is you can see justice alito, the one who receives these papers as the one in charge of the fifth circuit where this came from you will see him potentially putting what's known asan administrative say, which just basically puts everything on hold it doesn't rule on the merits, doesn't say the justice department is right. all it does is just keep everything on pause so that the justices have time to evaluate they have this midnight deadline they can't possibly decide on the merits right now they usually put one in as a place holder, to say we want to look at this more carefully. let's put in a stay in the short-term they might do that they might not again, if they don't do anything, doing nothing is doing something in this case. >> doing nothing is doing something. let's talk a little bit about what happened in florida overnight. 11:04 p.m., laura knows very

well she got a call about it immediately once this went into effect, but a six-week ban in florida down from a 15-week ban. why would governor desantis, who is trying to be the conservative leader for the republican party, at least it appears he's trying to do that, why would he not announce that decision in a bigger why why would he send off that picture in the dark of night >> i think that's a valid question here, especially when you contrast the way they signed the 15-week ban, versus now with the 6-week ban one explanation might be because he was between traveling on stops, being in the midwest and being in new hampshire today, he wanted to sign as soon as possible, the other explanation might be more political, if you look at new polling out of florida, it looks like 75% of floridians broadly oppose this kind of a ban, and even break it down further among republicans, roughly 6 in 10 republicans in florida oppose a six-week abortion ban

it is once again another instance in a statewide case of how republicans are marching out of step even within their own party. nevertheless, you're watching other people in the republican field like senator tim scott of south carolina who i interviewed today continue to tack to the right on this even as he struggles to oarticulate a consistent position, and struggles over whether he would back a 20 week ban ultimately he said he would. when i asked about a six-week ban today, which is what he told me watch. >> states have the ability to have the most conservative bills they can get passed in their legislature. i support the culture of life. >> is six weeks the right mile marker >> the people have decided that their elected leaders have the opportunity to do so, so i would say absolutely as the culture of life is being protected, we should celebrate that they will have different varying views on that. but if i were president of the

united states, i would literally sign the most conservative pro life legislation that they can get through congress. >> reporter: even if it was six weeks? >> i'm not going to talk about six or five or seven or ten. >> reporter: and though he says he's not going to talk about six or five or seven or ten, at the end of that exchange, i said to him again, you would sign it even if it was six weeks, and he ultimately said yes. this is yet another reminder of the way republican candidates both in their states but also running for president are actively going to have to contend with this issue, which is a really tough and sticky one for them, when you look at what most of the american public is at, compared to the hard line conservative base. >> i mentioned that it will be an albatross likely around governor desantis's neck you might think, how is an albatross a bad thing. maybe you heard that phrase your whole life today i thought twice and i wondered what the origins were a sailor shot an albatross, lucky in maritime folklore

it triggered misfortune for the whole crew they were forced to wear that bird around his neck, and that's where the saying comes from, and i'll point to some national polling that we can put up on our screen on abortion, and it just seems like if republicans are trying to find a way to win a general election, i mean, even a state election, and some of these states that have shown that -- i mean, kansas, for instance, voting overwhelmingly to protect abortion rights i don't understand how tacking to the right on this, signing bills that make a six-week ban supporting whatever the most conservative, extreme measure is, how that helps them politically. it's just very confusing. >> reporter: yeah, kansas, wisconsin, you look at where republicans were able to make gains in the house races in '22. it was in blue states where mostly abortion access was protected. in republican states where they should have been able to make end roads, they largely didn't

one of the explanations for that was because in the states abortion was not theoretically on the ballot, but tangibly on the ballot i think that's going to be one of the key questions as you look ahead to the rest of this primary in 2024 is the way these candidates work around this. you and i have had conversations before over the midterms and since then about how republicans are the dog that caught the car on abortion. now that the supreme court made that decision, i remember being in washington, and republican senators and lawmakers were not trumpeting the merits of the dobbs decision instead, they were simply saying send it back to the states they didn't want to talk largely about whether or not they would move with their majorities on national abortion bans whether they put that at 15 or 20 weeks they want this to be at the state level. national republicans don't necessarily want to talk btabou it if you're at the state level you have to. joining me is uc davis law professor, and an expert around the law on abortion, mary

ziegler. what's next for florida, and how is this decision for a six-week ban going to affect that state >> it's going to be a really big deal florida had one of the highest numbers of abortion in the united states, because it was a receiving state. people were traveling from all over the south to florida, and that door is going to be closed. we don't know. obviously there could be a state constitutional challenge to the six-week ban, which in theory should be unconstitutional under the state's constitution according to precedent, but ron desantis has transformed the florida supreme court. most of us are expecting that the florida supreme court will change the interpretation for governor desantis. there will be spillover effects for patients not just in florida but throughout the south now having to turn to north carolina, where a ban could be imminent or south carolina, the state has opened the door to a more liberal policy. >> let me ask you about the

history of this fight, and politically speaking, why now? why are republicans so eagerly attaching themselves or at least some of them are, a lot of them are, why now you have been covering this forever? >> i think for desantis, this is quite simply about the primary notwithstanding donald trump's recent finger pointing at the abortion issue, to blame for the republicans' bad performance in 2022, trump has a track record of delivering for opponents. he gave three supreme court justices who overruled roe, showed up in the march for life. he's a known entity in the anti-abortion movement ron desantis hadn't done anything to date there was a calculation for desantis, and honestly for tim scott as well about whether to prioritize those base primary voters and hope that the rest of us don't care about abortion when the general election rolls around or other issues take precedence or to go where the american

people are and not sponsor a ban this sweeping. we see that desantis as republicans often have recently prioritizing what the pbase wants. >> talk about a general election obviously you're prioritizing the base here. the base only takes you so far, and when you have to get to a general election, you're going to have to account for it. and it was not kansas as we were talking about, are they not cautionary tales >> i think yeah, and i think even more so now we're seeing that the person in the white house is going to have a huge role in what our actual abortion policy looks like we have seen court cases flagging the idea that the comstock law could be interpreted by the federal court as a national ban on abortion. whether that would be enforced strongly or not would depend on who is in the justice department and who is in the white house. what steps the fda takes using its discretion to enforce orders taking steps to remove

mifepristone from the market or not depends on who's in the white house. it is not about judicial nominations, it's much more. it will be on the ballot in the presidential election in ways we haven't seen in recent decades, even more than we would have seen in places like kansas the cautionary tales are every. >> mary ziegler, thank you very much. and coming up next, to what the government says the alleged classified documents leaker jack teixeira started doing when he realized he could be caught. and what a billionaire gop donor says he was trying to do when he bought and renovated justice clarence thomas's mother's house. plus, what extremes the doj says mexican cartel members were going to to protect their fentanyl business, and how mexico and the u.s. are now working to curb the fentanyl crisis we're back in 60 seconds

you need to deliver new apps fast using the services you want in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you innovate and grow. (seth) not to brag, but i just switched to verizon. (cecily) wow! and enterprise control, (seth) and i got to choose the phone i wanted. for free. (cecily) not that you're bragging. (vo) switch and choose the phone you want, like the incredible iphone 14, on us. (cecily) on the network worth bragging about. (vo) verizon jack teixeira was in court today, which means we're

learning more about what the government says it has learned about the 21-year-old accused leaker according to court documents, the fed says the national guard airmen started posting classified documents online around december of last year when news of the leak broke, teixeira allegedly started to panic, searching classified intelligence reporting for the word leak. just a few days ago. joining me now, our nbc news chief foreign affairs and washington correspondent andrea mitchell and outside the courthouse in boston where jack teixeira made his first court appearance, jack teixeira was there this morning, what is he being charged with >> reporter: he's basically being charged with violating the nation's espionage laws chwhich make it a crime to handle or mishandle documents that puts nation's security at risk relating to removing, transmitting these documents

all total, he faces up to 15 years in prison, and you're right, there are different points along the way that he was apparently aware that he was concerned about whether he could continue this. several months ago, at one point, he was taking documents and photographing them apparently somewhere near work, he started taking them home and photographing them investigators, the fbi, prosecutors allege, and then there was a point just april 6th when there were media reports about these confidential documents that he did that search using the word leak, to try and see what the intelligence community knew about the leaker, ie himself this hearing was brief it was basically just to inform him of the charges the judge also scheduled another hearing for next wednesday, which will be a detention hearing, which will determine whether he is granted bail or not, and at that point, he's probably going to enter a plea, and i would suspect that the government is going to make a strong case for a high bail until a trial happens.

he faces up to 15 years in prison, and that's the least of it, perhaps, or that's only some of it. his military career is obviously destroyed. but the government is still trying to understand the far reaching impact of what he was able to do, how he was able to do it, and as the investigation continues, there may be more people associated with this that are brought to justice at some point. >> did his family show up today? have they said anything about this >> reporter: they were sitting in the front row of the courtroom, and when hecame in in handcuffs, there was some eye contact, and when he was removed out of the courtroom by guards, there was an exchange of words which some say thought they each said, we're with you, we love you, that sort of whispered back and forth. we couldn't quite hear exactly what was said but there was some exchange, and then the family left the courthouse without making any comments to head back presumably to their home >> let's talk about the fallout

from this. so this is an i.t. guy, relatively new, relatively low level in the scheme of things, but because he was i.t., he had a lot of access to a lot of information. very similar to edward snowden after snowden, wouldn't the government have clamped down on this sort of stuff how could it that happen again >> you would think there was supposed to be a complete reform of the procedures after snowden it's been ten years, and since that time the same question that members, house democrats and the republican chairman, mike turner, on the intel committee asking, you know, how could this happen, and jack lee, the armed services chairman. there's going to be oversight hearings on the hill the fact is, the difference with snowden, according to his friends in the chat room, and

eric toller, the first to actually find that these leaks were out there, and then continue to work and then working with "the new york times" actually sooer rzero in report the identity of jack teixeira, and it was just shortly behind that, frankly, right behind that, according to the affidavit, the time line that we now have that the fbi caught up with him and yesterday made that arrest in full armour with, you know, the vehicles and long guns, you know, at the ready, and taking it in that way at home. originally the plan, we're told, was to arrest him at work, at otis air force base but the times had published the name and our helicopters were already overhead, so they went in and because he was such a gun enthusiast, they went in to avoid a potential waco they went in fully armed and surrounded and said come on out

with your hands up, which he did, without incident. no problem with the arrest just to go backwards, this was about two dozen very young men young men and teenagers. mostly teenagers in this private chat room. he was the leader and after a while, he seemed to want to impress. they say he wanted to show off his knowledge, and started posting things that only a few of those in the group realized were classified documents, and eventually, apparently, the teenagers had such short attention span to read down the whole wall of the chat that he started photographing them because he was getting tired of transcribing them. and then he started taking the pictures, and then he started taking it home so it's kind of advanced that way, and one of the members of his chat group posted something that teixeira claimed he never wanted to be, you know, to get out. and did kind of panic when he

realized they were on to him, and on april 6th, so only last week, he started searching on classified sites for the word leak, and realized they were after him. >> andrea mitchell, crazy, just a crazy story. ron allen, thank you very much let's go a little deeper with former supreme allied commander, retired admiral james stavridis. thanks for being here with us. i want to talk about the damaging aspect of this. there are all sorts of reports of what was in those documents, including a report that u.s. and uk special forces were operating within ukraine that seems like a plretty big deal. >> it is a big deal as follows first, katy, we need to draw a line under we don't know the ver veracity of all of it.

a great deal looks logical, sensible on the other hand, there are things that are flat wrong, including casualty losses for the ukrainians and russians, which are the flip of reality, kind of indicating russian manipulation at some point let's not take everything as gospel in here, but you're absolutely right what we ought to be doing is assessing the damage here, and i think that there's damage on the u.s. side in terms of the logistics, the pattern of where we're going, the locations could be helpful to the russians, creating a strike plan there's pretty clearly some broken sense between the u.s. and some of our allies that's going to create problems, and you mentioned the reveal on special forces if that's accurate, concerning to have that out in the public venue, and then one i'd really

conclude with that struck me looking at all the reporting on this was the quickf antiair weapons on the part of the ukrainians include they may be more reliable to strikes as spring unpfolds. there's a lot to unpack, a lot of damage assessment ahead >> let's talk about a little further the damage it does to our international allies, and their trust in us. i think it probably goes without saying that there was some knowledge that allies spy on one another. i've heard that over the years the issue beyond, oh, you're watching us goes to can we trust you with our information this was a big issue talking about donald trump in the oval office, reveals israeli intel to the russians what does this do to further -- does it further erode the trust that our allies have in us >> i think unquestionably it

creates an uncomfortable series of conversations you and i remember the wikileaks story, chelsea manning who gave away, just put it in perspective here, 750,000 highly classified cables there are only 100 documents evidently at risk with this current situation. that created a lot of uncomfortable conversation, but allies in the end make decisions about who they want to be with based on big issues. i think this will create, you're absolutely right, some sand in the gears, a little bit of erosion. longer term, i think we're going to be fine on that score going forward. >> if they can figure out how to make sure people who shouldn't be seeing the intelligence aren't seeing the intelligence thank you for being here. four days after five people were murdered by a man with

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a watchdog group in washington has filed a criminal and civil complaint against justice clarence thomas after new reporting from pro publica revealed harlan crow purchased multiple properties from him for more than $130,000 citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington also known as crew is asking the doj and chief justice john roberts to investigate thomas for failing to report both of these real estate sales and the other quote, lavish gifts given to him by crow. a federal disclosure law passed

after watergate requires justices to disclose the details of most real estate sales that are over a thousand dollars. in a statement crow said he purchased thomas's mother's house to quote one day create a public museum at the thomas home dedicated to telling the story of our nation's second black supreme court justice. joining me is democratic senator from rhode island and member of the judiciary committee sheldon whitehouse he has been at the forefront of congressional efforts to hold the supreme court on ethical and transparency issues. the homes that harlan crow purchased, specifically the mother's house it appears clarence thomas's mother still lives there and renovations have been done to the house that she remedid not for. it's unclear if she's paying rent i'm curious if he's trying to preserve the house, regarding how clarence thomas grew up,

renovations would fly in the face of that, wouldn't they? >> you know, it might seem so, which is why investigation into all of this is so important. and by that i mean independent real investigation, not just relying on harlan crow's media comments that's why it's so important that the judicial conference, as i've asked, make the referral to the attorney general who has the power under the ethics and government act and the responsibility to look into these things, and if, in fact, there was a negligent or willful failure to disclose, assess civil penalties. >> so you're asking them to do that what about the concern that doj might have about appearing political, going after someone like justice clarence thomas >> i think it would appear a lot more political if you had a slam dunk case like this. the statute actually says if you

have a real property transaction for over a thousand dollars, you must declare it. there's no wiggling, there's no wobbling there was a $130,000 plus transaction, so there's really no way to duck this on the merits, and i also think that you've got a lot of other judges, federal judges looking at this, angry at hell, seething about the way the supreme court justices have behaved. and i think they'd feel very let down if the attorney general walked away from this when they themselves would be subject to this kind of scrutiny had they done such a thing. >> are you gotten any response whatsoever from chief justice john roberts regarding this? >> no, not precisely this, and when i do send him things, he usually gets back to me either through the clerk of court or through the legal counsel. sometimes the judicial conference steps in and takes over the way they did when they rewrote the rule about

disclosing gifts to knock out this peculiar habit of the supreme court justices in not disclosing, vacations they get given. >> let me ask you about rewriting the rules, who's in charge of making rules for the supreme court, and is there a way to redefine it to make sure it's crystal clear for everybody what's expected of them? and also crystal clear for the public about the rules that the justices are supposed to be following? >> yes, and i have a piece of legislation that would do exactly that the concern is that the -- not so much that the court doesn't have an ethics code, there's a perfectly good code of conduct for federal judges it's really just the choice by the justices not to allow any investigation or determination about their compliance with the code so that's what needs to be

solved, and it could be solved very easily, because every single circuit court of appeal has a perfectly good process for looking into these things, and the supreme court could easily model a perfectly good process for itself on what all the other federal courts do. they just choose not to. >> all right i want to ask you about one of y your colleagues, but dianne feinstein, the democratic senator from california, how do you feel about her absences? >> you know, it matters a lot that we have a full complement when the senate is as close as it is. and thankfully dianne feinstein has agreed to allow chuck schumer to appoint a temporary replacement for her in the judiciary committee where things were getting backed up by not having an actual majority. if the republicans blockade that effort, which they might do, then i think that's going to put the question back to senator feinstein how she wishes to proceed. but at the moment, i think she's

done the right thing by allowing senator schumer to appoint a temporary replacement to ease the blockage in the judiciary committee and now it's on the republicans to see if they want to be nice about this for somebody who's very very distinguished senator. >> she's had a long and distinguished career that is true has she given you -- do you have any idea of when she might be back is there a time line >> not that i know of. i suspect her office is communicating with the chairman and the majority leader but not directly i think that we're obviously eager to have her back as soon as she can come back to the senate and if she doesn't feel she can come back, she'll have to make decisions about that. >> it's a delicate question, do you think she's still fit to serve? >> that, i think, is a question that she has to ask herself, and if she is fit to serve and can comeback, then i would welcome her back as i said. she's a colleague i'm proud to

sit next to on the judiciary committee because of the extraordinary service that she has given over so many years. >> senator sheldon whitehouse, thank you so much for coming on today. we appreciate it. >> my pleasure. up next, are there any compromises to be had on guns? we're going to see exactly where gop presidential hopefuls stand when they address the nra today. will there be any mention of the mass shooting in louisville on monday or the kids killed in nashville two weeks ago? plus, it is constitutional a french court sided with president macron's move to raise the retirement age how the french public are reacting we are live on the streets of paris. (seth) not to brag, but i just switched to verizon. (cecily) wow! (seth) and i got to choose the phone i wanted. for free.

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i'm on a roll-ay. how about you? i'm just visiting. u.s. bank. ranked #1 in customer satisfaction with retail banking in california by j.d. power. three weeks ago in nashville, a person armed with a legally purchased assault rifle walked into a school and killed three nine-year-olds and three staffers on monday, in louisville, another person, also armed with a legally purchased assault rifle walked into a bank and killed five of his coworkers today in indianapolis, the gop's official and unofficial presidential hopefuls are promising or expected to promise the nra convention, they will never back down on guns. >> let me make you a promise, as long as there is breath in my lungs i will stand with you to ensure that the right to keep

and bear arms shall not be infringed. >> and now i am here before you as a candidate for president of the united states and i guarantee you that i will continue to stand with the nra i will continue to stand for the second amendment and the fight that we have in front of us. >> the second amendment ensures that the american people have the capacity to defend their lives, fortunes and sacred honor. it's last backstop of freedom, the foundation upon all of our over rights. >> i'm a concealed weapons holder myself, and my husband is a hunter we value the fact that citizens have the right to protect themselves know that you've always got a friend in me, you've always got a partner in me as they try and take away any of our constitutional rights. >> joining me from the nra convention, vaughn hillyard. anything in the language of these addresses to the nra

convention that can be construed as being open to any compromise on the issue of guns anything to tighten the restrictions, not take them away, but to at least tighten the restrictions >> let's just go off of their own words, if we may, there has been no mention of expanding background checks, no talk of limiting magazine capacity, no talk of raising the age in which an individual is able to buy a semiautomatic weapon those words have not been spoken here from the stage. wayne lapierre suggested the law passed last year should be an example for the other 49 states. asa hutchinson said he wanted to acknowledge the shootings from two weeks ago in nashville, and just four days ago in louisville, but it was mike pence who said that it's not about quote gun control that should be talked about instead it's crime control in

his words. i want to make sure it's important to note that mike pence said at the same time in his own words that folks should not be ignoring quote the motivations of the transactivists who killed three children and three adults at the christian school in nashville. the reason i say that is because law enforcement has said that there is no clear motivation here at this time what led to the shootingof that christian school here. at the same time, it rose to the greatest applause that mike pence got here he got booed entering the stage. delivering a line like that, he was well received with the crowd and hit on the point that he and a hutchinson have said this is a mental health problem and a moment the nra should focus on calling for further security measures at schools and places of work, and also focusing resources towards mental health. this is a line we have seen play out for years from 2018 after the parkland shooting, to last year, just three days after the

uvalde shooting when everybody gathered back here for the nra convention, and now just after these two latest mass shootings, you're hearing similar messaging. up next, the justice department says the u.s. is working with mexico to curb fentanyl today's ag, merrick garland announced charges for major cartel members what he says el chapo's sons did to protect their busesins. (seth) not to brag, but i just switched to verizon. (cecily) wow! (seth) and i got to choose the phone i waed. for free. (cecily) not that you're bragging. (vo) switch and choose the phone you want, like the incredible iphone 14, on us. (cecily) on the network worth bragging about. (vo) verizon

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we've got some breaking news out of the supreme court nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett is back with us we predicted this about 20 minutes ago. tell us what's happened? >> the supreme court has given the justice department and the manufacturer of mifepristone what it had asked for which is essentially to put on hold, on pause that controversial ruling from last week out of texas where that judge had tried to roll back certain access to this widely used abortion pill, and so the court has granted what's known as an administrative stay, which again is just a place holder, allowing a cooling off period of sorts. justice alito here who actually receives any appeals from the fifth circuit where the case arrives from ordering the plaintiffs in the case, a group of activists and doctors to provide its response so it can hear its side as well. we have only heard from the justice department and the pill manufacturer danco they have to respond to this in

writing by tuesday. >> by tuesday? >> so the administrative stay, the pause, will stay in effect until just before midnight on wednesday. >> so that means that if you go to the store right now, the drugstore, the pharmacy, and you try to get this pill across the country in texas anywhere you can still get it if you want to get it in the mail, you can get it >> as of this moment and through wednesday, yes. >> they are going to file their motions, their papers by that time. >> yes. >> what is the likelihood of the supreme court then making a ruling on this quickly or might they just extend that stay so that they can deliberate on this for the rest of this session and maybe get pback to us next june >> it's hard to know exactly how they will want to do this. but it makes sense that given the potential conflict that could have resulted. remember we talked about that washington order out there telling the fda not to make any changes to how this drug is distributed. given that order and this other order from texas saying no, no,

no, let's to roll it back to the year 2000, it makes sense they will put it on plus. it's unclear how the justices will come out on the merits. >> has any court ruled on standing yet >> the fifth circuit did striking, shall we say, analysis of standing in a way that i think a lot of people found curious because remember the people bringing this lawsuit are not people who have take mifepristone or said they are harmed by mifepristone, not even doctors who prescribed mifepristone said that they had, you know, bad experiences with it >> it's an anti-abortion group saying we don't like this pill? >> correct and usually you have to show some harm. so the standing analysis from the fifth circuit relates lake tahoeing to what happens after 2016, which is again the fda just loosening the restrictions, not even the original approval as to what happens after 2016 being able to get it in the mail is not clear that this group has

the standing to sue over that. so again maybe that's another reason the supreme court wants to step in and get involved. but it doesn't have to. >> i want to think about how the supreme court might consider this case when it does ultimately -- i mean, we are talking about washington versus texas, how they might consider whether to rule on the legality of mifepristone. we have had this conversation. you said it's not quite the same as the overturning of roe v. wade this would be a different sort of decision, different deliberation why? >> because that was about whether women have a federal constitutional right in this country to an abortion and on that issue the justices said doesn't appear anywhere in the constitution no dice. the states, if you want to ban it, fine if you don't want to ban it, great. that's the federal constitutional issue as it relates to the fda's ability to regulate the health and safety of any drug across america, that's a different issue and it's why i think you see such a reaction to this cas not people who care about

abortion, fda, big pharma is very closely attuned to this case because again it potentially affects every drug on the market. if anybody anywhere who has never taken a drug can say i have been harmed, that has serious consequences. >> a slippery slope. in terms of the counter arguments for women who tried to get abortions for medical necessity and haven't been table to do so, we have heard about this since the decision was overturned, where do those cases stand. >> part of why people are saying access to the drug was so important because in so many states after roe, medical abortion was sort of a last-ditch option. you know, clinics that closed or you couldn't take time off of work to travel to a neighboring state that might be able to offer you a procedure, medical abortion was the backdrop left over after the supreme court overturned roe v. wade and that's why i think so many people were focused on

mifepristone as an option. one of the sort of strange ironies, of course, is the people who are most focused on getting mifepristone taken off the market say it's about safety reasons. but if you take mifepristone off the market, the backup option is less effective and has side effects. or you can get a procedure, a dnc, which has complications that's sort of the one of the strange things even if this order, which has not gone into effect and will not go into effect, the order that the texas judge put in place to revert it back to the year 2000 actually changes the dosage to a higher dosage of mifepristone you are taking more drugs than you actually need to. >> what i don't understand with this is that they are arguing this drug didn't go through the proper safety protocols. >> yes. >> originally. >> yes. >> the fda didn't do the proper testing on this before they put it on the market but it's been on the market for 23 years 23 years and we have now seen all of the side effects that might be out there with this

drug and we found that it is very safe when used correctly according to the data. >> yeah. >> so they are making the argument that they didn't go through the correct way in the first place. doesn't the drug company, don't they have the argument of the 23 years, the evidence of the 23 years compiled to say, hey listen, fine, but as you can see, this drug is not a problem in terms of safety >> and they tried to submit that record that voluminous record a lot. the counterargument, and you saw it in the fifth circuit and lower court before judge kacsmaryk they talk about the idea that the studies that are dunn don't match what actually happens when you actually take the drug so the studies are done using ultrasounds. before you take the drug you don't have to take an ultrasound they say because of that mismatch, therefore, the fda basically dropped the ball now, i think a lot of fda officials would tell you that's not the standard and that's not how this normally works with

lots of fda approved drugs and if that is the standard we are changing the framework for all drugs, not just mifepristone. >> all drugs so if you say i have a problem with, i don't know, what was the drug we were talking about last time i have a problem with viagra take it off the market based on this. >> well, yes and whether that would go through the same hoops that mifepristone has gone through, again like you have a 23-year track record of this drug. and it's not to say there haven't been people who have a bad experience with it again that's a different question as it relates to whether it should be banned for all women for all time. >> it seems like we are going to be seeing a lot of these cases in the future until there is more clear cut guidance given by the supreme court and also by state courts on what is allowed and what is not allowed because doctors have said it's very confusing for them to decide what sort of treatment they are legally able to give women who

are coming in seeking medical help. >> and part of the issue is that when the states pass bans like the one passed in florida, sometimes they do provide exceptions for medical emergencies. but how you interpret that medical emergency on the ground is very different and each doctor then uses their discretion at play and if one doctor is more sort of worried about getting sued than another one, the standard of care can be affected. >> all right lisa -- laura, thank you very much for coming on and giving us this breaking news as predicted at the top of the show let's bring in lisa. what do you got on this? >> katy, i think that justice alito has done what we predicted. we were talking about this earlier in the day he frequently issued administrative stays even in cases where he goes against what the party requesting, the state has wanted the first thing i say to you is you can't be sure what the court

is going to do just because it issued an administrative stay to preserve the rights of all involved here. i am looking to see if between 12 noon on tuesday and 11:59 on wednesday whether the court is going to ask within the period of the administrative stay that justice alito granted or whether it do something like in the sb8 case where the plaintiffs wanted emergency relief from the court and they couldn't get it before sb8 took effect. if judge kacsmaryk's ruling takes effect here even for a short period of time, it would be nothing short of confusion and disaster on the ground for women and girls in this country. >> all right it would be confusing as you said so come tuesday night what is your exception of what the supreme court might decide given all that >> i think a lot of this is going to come down to justice kavanaugh, who wihen he was a judge on the d.c. circuit was differential to the fda's

ability to make decisions based on the science the question to him has to decide now is he convinced the scientific evidence wasn't appropriately considered by the fda or is he going to continue to be differential to the process that the fda has had in place for new drug approval for time in memorial and i think abortion rights activist -- advocates rather are hoping that justice kavanaugh will show himself to be a more moderating force than. so other conservatives on the court and with just us roberts and three liberals on the court to allow the state to take place while this case moves through the process. >> we are out of time. i would love to have a conversation that goes beyond standing what it means broadly for anyone bringing a case on anyone if you don't have to show harm. we will have to leave that for another. thank you very much. and that is going to do it for me on this friday. "deadline whitehouse" starts right now.