the question to him has to decide now is he convinced the scientific evidence wasn't appropriately considered by the fda or is he going to continue to be differential to the process that the fda has had in place for new drug approval for time in memorial and i think abortion rights activist -- advocates rather are hoping that justice kavanaugh will show himself to be a more moderating force than. so other conservatives on the court and with just us roberts and three liberals on the court to allow the state to take place while this case moves through the process. >> we are out of time. i would love to have a conversation that goes beyond standing what it means broadly for anyone bringing a case on anyone if you don't have to show harm. we will have to leave that for another. thank you very much. and that is going to do it for me on this friday. "deadline whitehouse" starts right now.

happy friday it's 4:00 in new york. he has held no press conferences, done no interviews that we know about he is elusive. the inner workings of his highly sensitive assignment a bit of a mystery outside of what some journalists worked to uncover. when it comes to the special counsel jack smith and his federal investigations, plural, into donald j. trump it takes an ear to the ground adept and trained to know when progress is being made this afternoon trusted voices suggest it is time to buckle up. here's why in dates since the federal appeals court in washington rejected the ex-president's bid to block former staffers from testifying in the january 6th investigation, ex-aides have paraded in and out of depositions without fig leaf

protections of executive an attorney-client privilege. on tuesday it was stephen miller late yesterday it was former dni john ratcliffe soon it could be the star witness, donald trump's former vice president mike pence himself. last week an advisor to pence said he would not appeal a court order to testify today though an update, trump and his attorneys this morning asked a federal appeals court to take, quote, immediate action to block pence's testimony. we'll monitor that decision for you. it could come down in a matter of days, judging by how quickly other such judgments in this case have been reached so far. but the broader reading of jack smith's investigation remains. from "the new york times" reporting on this, quote, while questions linger over pending appeals and potential efforts by some of the witnesses to delay things further by invoking the fifth amendment, the developments suggest that smith is close to finishing the fact finding phase of his work and moving closer to a decision about seeking charges against trump and others

a potential new stage in the federal investigations into donald trump's conduct before, during and after the january 6th insurrection is where we begin today with our favorite reporters and friends. "new york times" reporter katy benert is back also msnbc legal analyst andrew wiseman, whose backgrounds get better and better and better as jack smith's probe gets more intense. he is a former justice department prosecutor, former senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation. charlie is back, he has epic backgrounds, editor at large of the bulwark. watching you get mic'd up, made me nis one thing about covid, seeing inside everyone's homes we've sort of walked up to this point this week, i think, in seeing stephen miller and seeing the mostly secret court proceedings yield legal defeat

after legal defeat after legal defeat so far for donald trump in terms of withholding some of this testimony from jack smith i wonder what you make and if you could take me through what your colleagues are reporting about where things stand for jack smith. >> yeah. so what we are seeing is witnesses finally have to testify. it gives him an opportunity to create the fullest account we have seen of the events leading up to january 6th and the former president's role in those events now, keep in mind for the january 6th committee they knitted together a narrative but weren't able to compel all the witn witnesses they may have wanted to talk to the panel jack smith has basically continued to do that in court. it doesn't seem like anything is going to stop him because donald trump has continued to lose these battles. so where that takes us is inside jack smith's investigation and we have reported a little bit on this before other outlets have as well in terms of his style he is extremely thorough so what he is out to do is he

has prosecutors on his team present arguments in front of the group and the group tries to shoot him down in terms of best practices. everything he does is with an eye towards a jury trial he is extremely aggressive in trying to poke holes and arguments, trying to say where are we weaken the evidence he is not looking at this as a legal question -- he is looking at it as a legal of question he wants to win at trial and wants to convince jurors this is where he is going to start taking his team as they gather as much evidence, narrative evidence, witness evidence as possible. >> drew wiseman, that sounds like the way people described you before you were abvailable t us as a commentator an analyst as you were getting ready to go to trial the manafort case, i will see descriptions just like that. i don't want to let the moment pass though where "the times" is able to report -- and we had some of this conversation earlier in the week.

evidence by the legal battles underway, and again we don't know everything that's going on in court, secret but by -- as evidenced by what the fights are at this point, how and when and whether pence testifies, it's clear that a whole lot of fact finding we don't know about has gone on what is your take first on where the tea leaves suggest jack smith is >> let me first say i completely agree with katy. i think that it's exactly what jack is doing. and he is very much looking at this in terms of getting this indicted and to trial. i think it's really important for everyone to remember the time clock and i think that is pressing on jack the idea that he would do all of this, bring a case, but in such a late timeframe that it's too close to the election is the

kind of thing i think he is thinking there is no way he wants that to happen so i think he is really trying to race to the finish, but to do that responsibly now, he is helped by the fact that the january 6th committee gave him a huge running start, they, obviously, did a lot of work, but as katy correctly said, there is a whole bunch of witnesses they couldn't get to and he is doing exactly what you want, which is put them in the grand jury and lock them in by their own words, under oath, recorded by a court reporter that is a grand jury court reporter so they can't later say that the fbi got it wrong and that's not what i said he is doing everything by the book in the most aggressive and thorough way but with a eye on the clock. i think that's why people are thinking this is coming to a decision one way or the other. i think that the decision will be to go forward with respect to

both federal cases. >> let me ask what the clock looks like to a prosecutor >> so, that's, you know, look, that's a hard question i don't want to use the word imminent because that's, obviously, stretched quite a bit. but if we are having this conversation in the summer, i think that jack smith is going to be thinking how am i going to get that to trial. he knows that it can take a year to get to trial if he brings the cases in d.c and so every day that he has to wait and, obviously, i think he will wait, of course, to have mike pence in the grand jury. i think he is going to prevail on that. i think in a matter of if not hours, days. but i think after that, i think we are going to see that there is -- there may be very little else for him to do before he brings charges certainly with respect to mar-a-lago, which is a pretty

clean and narrow set of facts. >> when you see, andrew, the parade, described as a parade this week of witnesses going in, does the january 6th evidence start to look -- we put them in this sort of relative terms for so long, but do you feel like that case is nearing sort of even par in terms of its legal firmness to the mar-a-lago case, or is it still injury judgment that the docu-- your judgment t the documents case is simpler and cleaner? >> the documents case is always going to be simpler and cleaner. thus, for that reason sort of one if you indict, it's going to be easier to get -- convince a judge to have a trial sooner because there is less for the defense to do to be prepared to try that case. it does have a classified documents issue that will be somewhat complicated but certainly in washington, d.c., that's something the courts are very adept at dealing with

the real issue with the january 6th case isn't the strength of the case we ald all watched the january 6th committee and, obviously, that's not a trial but we had a sense of the evidence. i think that's going to be a strong case. that's unwieldy. jack smith has the right tools the challenge for jack smith is triage you can boil the ocean on the case and spend all the time, you know, months and years looking at, for instance, just the fraud allegations and that's not what this case requires and that's why jack is such the right choice for this case, because he knows, you know what this is where you can't let the perfect enemy -- the good in terms of the scope of the case you can't investigate all what was going on in every state by donald trump and his allies. you have to really keep it focused. so i think that's the skill set

here so i think that's happening. but, obviously, the key question is when. but again, i think that if we were waiting for months for either of these cases, i think that jack would do that as somewhat of a defeat because he knows that kind of case will be hard to bring to trial before the election. >> charlie, the timing is interesting. you know, the political calendar, politico, people like you and me, is something totally different than for prosecutors who under the rhythms and pacing of bringing a trial. i saw you nodding when i asked about prosectorial time. what are your thoughts about the calendar >> you know, i was glad that andrew was talking about the time here because it is very, very late. and we have paid a huge price, i think, for all of the failures to hold donald trump accountable. it occurred to me, nicole, we were having conversations like this, we have had conversations like this for the last six years. waiting for various

investigations to come to fruition, speculating about them we are paying a tremendous price for the failure of the u.s. senate to hold him accountable, the failure of the republican party to hold him accountable and the reality is we are paying a tremendous price for the slow motion department of justice investigation. you know, prior to jack smith. you know, these charges really do need to be brought some time this spring but they needed to be brought maybe last spring we are coming up op more than two years after january 6th. and to andrew's point, it takes a year to come to trial. well, a year from now the republican presidential nomination may already be sewed up it may be over we will be in the heart of the presidential campaign. so it's already -- we are already up against this deadline and i do worry about this. i have heard speculation that jack smith has to come up with something, take some action by

the end of spring. well, it is april 14th, 2023 and so that time clock is now absolutely crucial i worry that we have waited too long i think that it's legitimate to be frustrated about the delays, about the slow action ever the department of justice. but, yes, time is pressing we can really hear time's winded chariot at our back at the moment. >> i ask questions on this show for years about how long it has taken the merrick garland justice department to tern its lens, criminal scrutiny lens on donald trump andrew, i want you to weigh in on this. the story now is the clock i mean, to charlie's point, in a year we will have a republican nominee, the republican party. odds are, if you believe all of the polls together, aplize most conservatively, it will be donald trump

what in your mind is the best way to understand why on these cases that have brought -- as we just reported, a parade of witnesses that would include the national security officials. why is this happening now? >> so, you know, look, if you are jack smith, frankly, if you are the public looking at this, you know, there is a lot that can be said, and we have talked about this, about amerimerrick garland and the time period before the january 6th committee as to why they weren't doing more but if you are jack smith, it's like that -- who cares that's what happened he inherited this and he has to go forward just to give a maybe some good news, it is conceivable that in relatively short order, don't ask me to say what that timeframe is, but within a matter of a few months we have four indictments you know, one in manhattan, one

in georgia, and two in washington, d.c. and you could imagine that one, two, three, possibly all four are scheduled before the election and it also is possible that although now donald trump seems to be doing quite well and is going to use -- it's remarkable to even say this, use the fact that he is under indictment as a political tool, not something that you think whatever, whatever has been said about america. he could be on trial in the smaller january 6th case, which is the georgia case, in the manhattan case, he could be in trial on the mar-a-lago case all of those could happen because they are more discrete so that could really, one, change the political calculus, that it's not actually the republican nominee, and it also could be that he is actually -- he is and voters who are behind him see what happens

and he has to win not one time, but four times and so as a colleague of mine used to say, that's like deciding to play russian roulette with four bullets, not one. that is a very tough road to hoe. >> this is a different story but not separate from decisions about accountability and fair criticism from the general public, the taxpayers about the lack of accountability the individual who was charged with taking and leaking classified documents is being celebrated by the trump wing of the republican party how do national security questions weigh on this justice department >> so, this is -- that case is so fascinating to me because, first of all, yes, the response that we are seeing from certain republicans is exactly the opposite of what we would have madge end ten years ago when the republican party held itself out as the part of national security, very pro-america, asserting its power and having

these sorts of relationships in private. so this is someone fascinating for the justice department, this is an interesting case because it seems like it could be tricky to prove this is a person who had an intent to harm the national security of the united states of america. it seems like he is a person who wanted to impress other young men in a chat group, which seems a little bit different that just we are in such a different world when that becomes the intent, first of all. second of all, the bigger question is why did somebody who was a low level national guardsman have access to these secrets. try to figure out, one, mitigation strategies, but two, what exactly happened in the chain of command of this information? is there anybody else who could have had it? this is a fascinating case politically. we are seeing players we never would have madge end celebrating this kind of leak. for the justice department, it's a whole new world. it's hard to imagine in a different era, preinternet era,

pre-social media era of extreme alienation, these sorts of national security secrets leaked for reasons other than specifically to harm the national security of the united states or to help another nation so, again, this just all in all completely a fascinating case and will be something that the justice department's national security division and other prosecutors have to consider extremely carefully as they move forward. >> andrew, does the prosecution have to move that national security was damaged or does it have to prove that national security is damaged bit leaking of classified documents and the person intended to damage national security by doing so >> so, the motive that the person has is not something that has to be proved they have to honestly have the knowledge and intent to take the actions they did so taking clyde infassified infn and disseminating it intentionally is a crime

and so i am pretty sure that piece is going to be proved. if you happen to do that because you like the russians or you hate the united states or you just want -- or really are immature and are playing a game with your friends, it that doesn't matter those are reasons why you might have committed the crime, but the real issue is did you do it knowingly and intentionally versus just as a mistake so i do that i i free with katy, this is a fascinating case but this is an area where i do think that the justice department takes this unbelievably seriously. i think particularly given that the deputy attorney general is really steeped in national security matters i think this is why you also saw this justice department make the bold decision to do a first ever search of a residence of a former president, a seven that was turns out was totally

justified. so i think that if i were the, you know, republicans, the one thing i would have thought is that they might have been able to differentiate the arrest of the person yesterday from what appears to be the case for donald trump i mean, the justice department is smart they are not equivalent cases. there is no evidence that donald trump disseminated the documents, at least in the manner that appears to be the case with the individual yesterday. that's the distinction if you are trying did whether one or the other should be prosecuted it's not to say we agree with the dissemination of classified information. i agree with liz cheney. if that's your view, i don't know how you maintain your ability to have access to classified information going forward. >> so, charlie, i started can with katy and andrew before i -- we had this conversation because these are important legal and journalistic distinctions. in maga world, the leader of the

movement has taken classified material to mar-a-lago and said by sinking it he has declassified them and they are, quote, mine. andrew just said the justice department takes this incredibly seriously. why? because they are classified documents. why do we take classified documents seriously? because it is u.s. national -- it is a national interest. do you know what tucker carlson led with last night? not the national interest. he celebrated the leak of the documents. what people don't want to do, i don't think, when people like you and me ask questions and express some frustration, dismay, frankly, how long it has taken to hold trump accountable is acknowledge the permission structure is created to break the laws around classified documents and everybody got the memoen the right we can wait until it's but under down and look at the clock and talk about how difficult it is, say that the calendar, merrick garland had other priorities but the damage has been done

permission structure on the right has been signaled to the entire right wing. i knew what tucker carlson was going to lead with last night and i could have written marjorie taylor greene's tweet for her because the damage has been done. >> but it's still remarkable and we ought to underline the point you are making here. >> this is the latest in the series of transformations on the right, you know, republicans used to be the party of national security they used to be the party of law and order. they used to be the party of constitutionalism. they used to think that character matters. and you will see, like, one domino after another has fallen in the era of donald trump so, yes, it is predictable what marjorie taylor greene and tucker carlson did last night, but it is still remarkable someone who clearly has betrayed his oath of office, is his oath, military oath, someone who betrayed his country, leaked material that is damaging to his country and they are being celebrated, at least marjorie

taylor greene, you know, on her part by somebody who actually sits on the homeland security committee, who does have access to this. and i, you know, i also agree with liz cheney's point here but this is worthwhile stepping back saying, how this party has changed and how many of the things that are happening right now would be inconceivable five, six, seven years ago to imagine conservative republicans celebrating someone like this, this 21-year-old, you know poster gamer out there who has betrayed his country in this particular way, that somehow he is a martyr, he is a victim. so, you know, again, buckle up we are in a very, very strange circumstance but this is one of themany way in which donald trump has convinced republicans to move away from those norms and move away from the rule of law and move away from this expectation that people will behave honorably. >> when we come back, the once

indicted twice impeached disgraced ex-president spent eight hours yesterday in a depo. according to the new york attorney general he, quote, spoke a lot. wow. plus, it is down to the wire in the legal battle over a critically important part of the abortion medical abortion pill springs. the supreme court has just issued a ruling preserving temporarily access to mifepristone for the next few days we will break that down later the program. mounting calls for an investigation after news this week that clarence thomas had business dealings with a right wing magadona and failed to disclose them. all those stories and more after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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as we reported here yesterday as it was happening, the disgraced ex-president was back in manhattan to answer a few questions from lawyers at the office for new york state attorney general letitia james we have learned he spent the entire there with the a.g. herself in the room for some of it. it was his second deposition for a blockbuster $250 million lawsuit in which a.g. james accuses trump of making more than 200 instances of fraud in his business practices the questioning lasted nearly eight hours during which msnbc news learned the ex-president spoke, quote, a lot. back in august he pleaded the fifth more than 400 times. it feels significant and

remarkable that this time his lawyers let him let it rip and he did not take the fifth once ahead of a trial scheduled for october. andrew wiseman, in your view, what gives >> you know, this is one where i think that his lawyers were, and he, were weighing the competing interests because, remember, this is a civil case and so the record as it stands is all of the proof that is alluded to in letitia james' extensive civil complaint is something that can be presented to the judge in addition, she could use the former president's assertion of the fifth amendment. because it's a civil case, that gives her sort of a leg up it's an added inconference that the judge can make because he is asserted the fifth amendment with respect to these questions. that's allowed in a civil case not allowed in a criminal case

so for donald trump to prevail, he has to come up with something to counter that. and so he is now testifying in the discovery phase of the case is a way to take away at least that added inference of the assertion of the fifth because now it would be very hard for letitia james to argue that to a judge because he has now answered the questions to which he previously refused to the problem is, did he say anything that could help, for instance, alvin bragg in his pending financial fraud case, because, remember, he said that is still pending and we should also remember we were all, at least i was, one of the people thinking, okay, when he says he is still doing this criminal case, is that really true, is it something he is just saying to not have people yell at you turns out it was true. now he is saying there is still

that financial case. so take him seriously. so that's the dance there. you know, one tidbit that suggests that donald trump may not have done that well is that today you a apparently he made some statement that my financial statements, they were even -- you know, if fact, we were doing even better than what we put on our financial statements well, if that's what he said to letitia james, that's actually part of what her claim is, was that they were presenting a sort of worse position when they were going to the tax authorities and they were presenting a better position when they were going to banks trying to get loans. so saying that we had financial statements that were inaccurate because we were doing better is actually supportive of her theories so i was a little surprised that the former president made that statement. >> yeah, and anyone that read anything that has been written or read a page of the book knows

that one of the buckets of conduct that has been under criminal and civil scrutiny now for years and the supreme court got involved, some of these records. the tim"the times" has writ bees this practice testified to by michael cohen of deflating assets for certain purposes and inflating them it kinda gets us back to something that you and your colleagu colleagues reported for years about trump. in his mind he is his own best lawyer, sort of the like the joe pesci movie, right who is here in defense of trump? me, i am in reality, it's not such a great legal strategy >> well, one of the things we have seep in other investigations that lawyers are hesitant to have him speak to prosecutors because he is so hard to keep on message. he contradicts himself he goes off topic. he reveals random things that perhaps he shouldn't this makes him somewhat of a nightmare witness. to your point, the fact that he testified for so long, it is not

clear that this is something that's going to be good for him. also, if you take a step back and look at the context, trump feels incredibly victimized in this moment. and if he is allowed to speak on his own behalf, he might want to do that. he already came out -- we expect to see him continue to rail against alvin bragg. if jack smith indicts him, you can expect him to rail against jack smith this is a place he wants to go in and he wants to defend himself. it's not a criminal case, but it is really important to him it is his money. and this is a situation where this could really be a blow to his business and a huge and devastating way. i mean, as other guests have come on and talked about, we don't really know how much money he has we have never seen a full financial disclosure he always represented himself as billionaire when he wasn't we don't know how much money the organization has, what they are

doing with their assets and what is smoke and mirrors so there is also a desperation around this case because the punishment isn't jail time, it's discouraging millions of dollars to the state of new york, which he may or may not be in a financial position to do this is fascinating to watch, fascinating psychologically toe is see how it plays out. if i was his lawyer, of course they will say it was great he was able do this knowing how he speaks, his loose relationship to the truth, you know, it's unclear whether or not this is going to be got goodlett in the end for him. >> charlie, such a agreed minder and great books and bodies of reporting and andrew wiseman, i mean, his red line, the thing he never let anyone near, other than his hair, is his finances. >> money. >> right this is a real trigger. >> yeah. so yesterday i was actually walking my dog, listening to andrew on msnbc talking about

the possible nightmare scenario of donald trump as a witness, and he used, i think, the key word that one of the things that trips up white collar criminals in cases like this is their hubris that was you, andrew, right? the hubris they are cocky they are arrogant. they believe they have something to say and this gets them in a lot of trouble because, you know, they have this incredible confidence that they are able to tell their story and spin it the right way and this is a civil case but as andrew pointed out, you still have alvin bragg who is watching the same set of facts, watching carefully what is donald trump saying under oath what is he giving away and as katy mentioned, donald trump is really a nightmare witness. so the longer he talks, the greater the possibility that he is going to tell lies and these would be lies under oath that will reveal things that might actually have consequences in a criminal trial that he doesn't fully understand

but i think that this is one of those moments where donald trump's arrogance and his hubris might be very, very dangerous for him. >> it's so interesting when you hear eight hours, i mean, i kinda -- i thought it was a head-scratcher but to the points you are all making, if he is talking, you might have savvy prosecutors that just say, go on, tell me more >> yes. >> fascinating katy, andrew, charlie, thank you so all so much for starting us off today. up next, the supreme court could be on the verge of making its most consequential decision to date on abortion since overturning roe v. wade with its dobbs decision we will inbrg you up to date on all of that next only pay for what you need. with the money we saved, we tried electric unicycles. i think i've got it! doggy-paddle! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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you need to deliver new apps fast using the services you want in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you innovate and grow. voters are already outraged by anti-choice extremist dogged attacks on reproductive freedom and every baseless ruling steeped? dangerous disinformation and total dois regard for our law and democracy only adds fuel to the fire >> familiar face to all of us. that was the president of pro-choice america outside the united states supreme court this morning calling on justices to block a ruling from an appeals court that would severel curtail access to the most commonly used and safest abortion and miscarriage

management drug. the profits reflect the fact that this case has quickly made its way through the courts to the country's highest court, and just hours after that protest we were showing you right now on the screen justice samuel alito, the author of the dobbs decision, stripping away the constitutional right to an abortion, placed a temporary hold for just a few days on that appeals court ruling, keeping mifepristone widely accessible for now. joining us now president of pro-choice america, as you just saw, spoke at the rally at the supreme court today. plus msnbc medical contributor dr. patel is back and legal correspondent and senior editor for slate, host of the amicus podcast. so exciting to have you fresh off this protest i can barely decipher the legal tet tonic pieces today alito's stay puts on hold the amarillo judge's ruling for a

few days is that right? >> that's right. and the ruling that upheld a part of that, the fifth circuit ruling that came down at midnight last night essentially the clock was ticking down to saturday when something was meant to happen. this is an administrative stay it essentially is just a pause and what it says is we've got until midnight wednesday, parties are going to have to file some briefs and we are going to figure this out it's not a ruling on the merits. it's not even a tip of what jus justice alito thinks it is a signal although they pretend not to be listening, is listening to something about how it needs to get involved. >> minnie, take me inside your message today and just speak to the depth and breadth -- i mean, the new polling on abortion is stunning, even for those who believe it should be, you know, even more universally supported right for half of our population

than it is 51% of all republicans, who believe that the ruling banning mifepristone was politically motivated. close to 70% of all democrats at a policy level and legal level, this smells political and corrupt and wildly unpopular >> so the message we were delivering at the court was this case should have never been heard. it completely is without merit it's without standing. it's so outrageous and extremist. the court has every responsibility to hear it, but the state is just temporary relief, if you could call it that we need the court to outright, frankly, dismiss this case it doesn't have merit. so as you pointed out, you know, public opinion is well on our side one of the things we are doing as a movement, planned parenthood, aclu, our allies, is we've launched a people's petition to the court just to show and emphasize how much

public support there is for medication you a abortion, and we are also using this as an opportunity to underscore the challenges with the credibility of this court. it's not shocking, but quite alarming that this is all happening at the same time that this news is breaking about clarence thomas and his serious ketanjical complications with the court taking gifts from a maga donor and we have to raise the alarm that this court's credibility is under kregs and they better do what's right or we are going to call on congress to make it right. >> we are going to drill all the way down on the latest reporting. it's unbelievable. dahlia has a brand-new piece of analysis on the crisis at the supreme court. i want to -- i don't want to get any further though without talking about what this means today. dr. patel, for a woman seeking reproductive health care, i want to read from the justice department's appeal. they write this. the fda is caught in the middle

here between the fifth circuit and the washington state judge's ruling putting the agency at risk of contempt it complies with either one. the abrupt shift in the regulatory landscape that would be required by the lower court's order to put the fda in an impossible position. the fda spent the last week grappling with implications of the district court's order, then racing to untangle the complicated issues raised by the fifth circuit's decision in the meantime, another district court has enjoined fda from doing anything to change the conditions on the distribution of mifepristone in 17 states and the district of columbia which means that the fda risks contempt if it takes action to permit the marketing of mifepristone in a manner consistent with the fifth circuit's order. completely caged in by the dysfunction and the extremism in the courts what happens inside a doctor's office between a patient and a doctor right now

>> what's happening right now is that a lot of my colleagues aren't necessarily keeping up with the fact that the supreme court has put in a stay. so many of us were under an assumption as saturday at 1:00 a.m. we were rolling back to the kind of pre-2020 standards that we had for mifepristone prescribing, which is we couldn't put it in the mail you had to have an in-person visit. there were a lot more restrictions that took place several years ago. many of us just kind of assumed. sadly, i have to say this, i was a little relieved that was the outcome because they were facing an alternative where we weren't able to prescribe it at all. isn't it amazing how much those of us that know the science, 23 years of science that supports the use of this drug, and also just talking through, we have been talking about abortions one in five pregnancies end in miscarriage. we talk about the fact we use this drug for many purposes. taking that away is denying women a humane way to kind of go

through the medical system so what's happening now just complete -- because of the controversy and the chaos, is confusing providers. there is a significant number of us who are to probably going to recoil and resist prescribing out of fear. so because the right has made it very scary to prescribe this or has made it seem like it is a illegal. today it is not illegal. as you heard, this is something that we have just a temporary stay for but as clinics are unfolding and people need medical care, real world is hitting us in the face. people don't know what it do that results in missed opportunities to give women the care they deserve. >> so much of this is designed do what dr. patel just said, right? the extreme right has totally hijacked policy and politics and abortion in the supreme court is complicit in overturning roe

it's political dead weight on the republican party and that's why you have republicans like this one, his document running for president, incapable of getting like a noun and a verb together to explain his position on abortion let me play tim scott. >> every time a state has a decision, they have the ability to have the most conservative bills they can get passed their legislature, i support the culture of life without question. >> but is six weeks the right mile marker? >> the people have decided that their elected leaders have the opportunity to do so so i say absolutely. as a culture of life is being protected, we should celebrate that states will have different varying views on that, but yes if i were president of the united states, i would literally sign the most conservative pro-life legislation that they can get through congress. >> even if it was six weeks? >> i am not going to talk about six or five or seven or ten. i am saying whatever the most conservative legislation is that can come through congress.

>> just sank his ability to be the president of these united states let me say something about this language no one should allow republicans to use this. you know who supports a culture of life? a womanwith a miscarriage and has sepsis and she is in a hospital she supports a culture of life, too, the life she was carrying this is not about life this is about extreme and politically corrupted politics on the right that brought us to a point where -- what he said is in violation where a plurality of republicans are right now. >> an interesting point about the overton window here. a year ago we were gobsmacked that dobbs was happening judge kacsmaryk's order from amarillo made dobbs look reasonable and centrist. and what the fifth circuit did made dobbs look reasonable and centrist we are watching the overton window shifting in front of our eyes and the amazing thing is that it is having no effect on the discourse. people are not moving. they are, as you said at the

beginning, becoming angrier. >> the numbers right now of people who support abortion in all or most instances are at historic highs. >> yes. >> minnie, what are you seeing again, rwomen are suffering. women will die this is not health care. this is not part of being equal citizens in the american experiment and we will never stop paying attention to that. but the politics are catastrophic for the republican party today. >> tim scott's remarks were just remarkable in their bumbleliness, if that's a word i was astounded. he is experienced as a states person but it tells you so much it tells you how in disarray gop is about positions as i have said before. their espoused for decades tim scott has been the honoree an unabashed defender of extremist anti-choice argss and

movements and now sees the same polling you saw. you showed us. look i think the culture of life thing you nailed it. it is just laughable at this point and what is astounding is the american people have broke through gentleman year ago if we were talking about this and i think we were the dobbs effect closed the believability for the abortion rights movement people did not believe roe would be overturned. now it is because you're telling the stories of real life people and the impact it has. >> and that is -- it is central to people's real world experiences as men and women, as families i want to come back to that on the other side of a very short break. don't go anywhere.

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that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you keep your cloud options open. and there he is. chaz. the rec league's self-crowned pickleball king. do you just bow down? no you de-thrown the king. pedialyte. 3x the electrolytes. so, dr. patel, what happens this week and next week? how is information shared? do patients -- you said doctors can't keep track what is happening to women in america? >> premature advisories from specific hospitals and clinics i have seen some emails that have gone around because of confusion in leadership where they have interpreted the

decision as the elimination of an option to use this drug whatsoever that was incorrect and then the fifth circuit epa the interpretation we have people deciphering this in the incorrect manner and many are wondering can we stockpile the drugs and prescribe them and hold on to them in case they need them. and i think the ore conversation that's happening as i mentioned before is training ourselves on what happens in a universe with one of the two drug regimens, the second in the abortion regym or in a miscarriage and getting women ready for the fact we haven't wanted to do this and how to give advice when to come back to the doctor and call us if in what we expect that this does not fully help them go through the process the way that

two-drug regimen would do. we are preparing for the worst and hoping that we never have to live that reality. it feels like that's more and more becoming the reality. medically speaking it is what i said many of us as physicians are risk averse. and the number of people will just fade away and not want to prescribe the drugs whether it is the legal or not. because of the fear of what could happen to them you see that in the states that made this criminal against physicians. >> unbelievable moment the voices are so vital to understanding it thank you so much. into the next hour, come up for us, how justice thomas' failure to disclose the ties with the conservative billionaire is dealing yet another blow to the supreme court's reputation that story is next after a quick

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have the attorney general come in and do a report that sets the facts out so that he can pursue a civil fine is very important. setting aside the fine it is not a big number but the fact of an investigation is important and potentially a spur to chief justice roberts to do what he should have done which is to provide a mechanism for investigating allegations about supreme court justices >> hi again, everybody 5:00 in new york in the wake of the reporting

that justice clarence thomas was not only gifted lavish vacations but that that same friend also purchased property from him. none of which is publicly disclosed by justice thomas. sheldon whitehouse has called for an investigation by the u.s. attorney general garland saying that if the justices of the highest court will not police themselves then somebody else needs to do it we covered it on this program yesterday. the astonishing new reporting that the billionaire buddy and republican mega donor purchased the house that thomas' mother lived in and still lives in along with lots on the same street in savannah, georgia. it marks the first known instance of money flowing from crow to justice thomas thomas did not respond to the questions.

senator whitehouse and experts argue that he has broken the ethics in government act of 1978 saying that property exceeding $1,000 needs to be disclosed questions of ill legality aside justice thomas' conduct amounts to a stunning breach of public trust in an institution that relies on the public confident that the justices put the law and integrity above everything else these revelations come when the court has seen the approval plunge in an op-ed in "the new york times" today, quote, the only remedy to the problem of the court's corruption to say nothing of the power is to subject it to the same checks and limits with the other branches the court does not exist above or outside the reach the democratic party will have to abandon the squeamishness

about the supreme court. whether it is through structural change or elected code they must remind the court that it serves the republic and not the other way around crew has filed a civil and criminal complaint against thomas the chief ethics counsel tells propublica he needed to report the interest in the sale given the role of crow, you have to wonder if this was an effort to put cash in the pockets this is where we begin the hour. joining us now barbara mcquaid and dialithic is with us for slate. they are both msnbc contributors you are a new piece up

you write this under the rules around the undisclosed luxury travel, we could not find a single ittics expert willing to squint and hop on one foot to report the transaction as lawful. the court did not respond to the latest revelations defenders of thomas urge that this is a smear campaign by liberals no liberals around on the super yacht. that's ridiculous. >> it is an interesting illustration of the tribalism that infects the conversation that the idea that "wall street journal" op-ed page saying this the left leaning propublica. he broke the law if you want to defend him on the mefr its saying he is too awesome to disclose say that

the notion that the watchdog groups and that journalists are doing the work of digging up truly shocking conflicts and that it is being defended as you hate justice thomas is kindergarten stuff. >> let me assure everyone if anything came out that justice kagan or justice sotomayor doing anything illegal there would be congressional hearings in 15 minutes. >> yeah. part of the problem here is that we get hung up on the micro sto stories. care yo care about the rj and crow's like napkins that are embroidered with nazi insignia s thomas' mom has crow for a landlord and that's not okay it means that in a deep, deep way somebody who has poured millions of dollars into groups

that argue before the court, keeping justices off the court and putting other justices on the court has a material role in thomas' life disclose it. >> why does justice roberts continue to do nothing >> i think the formal answer is there's nothing he can really do he is not the boss of the other justices >> the boss of the institution he could demand an ethics -- let's be honest about codes of conduct. they look like something more than nothing. >> the most striking example that i have seen that a chief justice can do a lot if he wants to put the interests of the institution above the prorocky yal interests is the oust of fortest. that is with the nixon white house driving it a liberal pushing a liberal off

the court. it is nothing compared to what we saw on justice thomas. >> you just broke google do you think there's a chance? that the politics are so tribal. no one thinks there's a chance for roberts to seek to oust thomas. >> thomas issued a statement last week after the first story signals that he is capable of understanding he is in trouble the fact that the judicial conference, the governing of the body closed the loophole of the travel means that's how it is going to change. i don't think anybody believes there is a moment that the court says we are unethical. that's too much to ask but i will say all this other stuff, everything going on with the abortion case, the other cases, the court is so behind, the

mistrust in the building, shaped by the court knowing it is in a deeply adversarial posture with the country. >> what is the ability of anybody inside the bubble, because it is very clear that not you but we are on the outside of the bubble, to say it's not us. it is you. when you issue a decision that puts you on the other side of 70% of americans you will be a plagued institutions saying the leak of that document endangers the lives and then appoint the mall cop to investigate people don't believe you. we think you're full of it what is the ability to have that conversation >> i don't think it's high but this is why the clarence

thomas/harlan crow story is -- this is not trivial but technical. thomas has sat on the u.s. supreme court when it decided citizens united, shelby county, the gerrymandering case. this is the erosion of democracy's ability to function, one person one vote, the erosion of the principal that it was said by alito if you don't like this, vote people are voting that they don't like it and so the court is participating in making it harder to vote i think the thing that is really scary undergirding this is the same court we criticize is making democracy more broken and unstable the polarization we started the conversation with. the court has a thumb on the scale for that. >> you know, the public feeling that the court is a political

institution, it is not us being emotional. the right to an abortion is taken away by six right wing justices who have the hubris to say we are coming for others what is your stance of where the court stands >> i agree that dobbs decision is really something in that the basis wasn't founded on normal reasons for overturning precedent but on the opinion of justice alito that roe was egregiously wrong that is the wrong way for justices to overturn precedent they look at has the public relied on this is it inconsistent with other cases.

that's consistent with upholding roe versus wade. they just substituted the opinion for the roe court which is not the way precedent is supposed to work i think the argument of a nakedly political decision is one that lands as true because of the method that they used to overturn roe. >> what do you make of the sort of inability to do anything in line with institutional norms on ethics what few limits they have. what clarence thomas has done is in violation of the court's own lenient ethics. >> yeah. ethics rules matter. the reason they matter is we don't set the standard as long as it's not criminal it's okay because what matters in government is public trust that's where ethics rules come in they require disclosure. they require recusal with a conflict of interest all of those things are to

promote public trust and there to deter people from taking gifts. maybe i won't go on the fancy superyacht because that will look bad and decline the gifts rules matter one of the real damaging things since the trump era is destruction of norms as long as it is not illegal do it ethics rules are important for the court. the argument against it is to compromise the separation of powers, that the court is a separate branch from the others but the others have checks and balances the executive has to abide by rules. the legislature has to do it why not the court? where the decision making power of the court is arguably more powerful than anybody else is. i don't think that's a valid reason we could come up with meaningful ethics standards with teeth to hold the courtaccountable and

facing this deep, deep suspicion by members of the public of the compromised situation coming to politics. >> let's bring in the coverage democratic senator blumenthal. i want to read something you tweeted out this morning quote it just keeps getting worse. thomas' failure to report a ben tag -- benefactor purchased and renovated it i agree with you but tell me what an investigation looks like and how it happens. >> fist i believe that justice thomas should resign unavoidable, sickening stain of this appearance of improprietary

undermining credit bltd. you talked about the damage to the supreme court. it is the entire judiciary that is in peril here the supreme court has no armies, no police force. it has trust and credibility the judiciary ought to do an investigation through an inspector general. appointed by the judicial conference we have urged that this be referred to the justice department my preference would be for the judiciary to clean up its own mess and address wrongdoing in its own ranks. if the department of justice fails to start an investigation i think congress must act. >> do you get a sense from roberts or anyone around him that he has personally reached a tipping point?

>> great question. i will say having been a law clerk on the united states supreme court and having argued a number of cases there while i was attorney general of connecticut that the court is sometimes inscrutable but there is pressure on the court from lower court judges who have to be absolutely aghast and appalled the entire judiciary of the united states lives by a code of ethics the supreme court put itself above the law by refusing to have a code of ethics i have to believe that chief justice roberts is hearing from the lower court judges and trial judges, even from members of his own party. what in god's name is going on here there has to be a line that

can't be crossed and justice clarence thomas has clearly crossed it by taking money remember, these aren't luxury travels or trips not private planes not even the nondisclosure which is itself a possible violation this is money changing hands overpayment for profit his mother continuing to live in a house maybe represent free and certainly at a higher value than would be the sale on the market. and this is kind of sordid and gross in a way that we vice president seen in the united states supreme court in history, currently not in recent history. >> i don't have any friend that are billionaires but in a close relationship buying your mother's home isn't usually the

first move ginny thomas is a very active activist how do you get a full accounting of where all the place the crow money has flowed in? >> you know, there is a saying for us who are prosecutors follow the money that's what an inspector general for the journal conference would do look at records of both justice thomas and his wife. on one of his disclosure forms he put in the box for spouse income none when in fact his wife received payments from republican leadership in the house, heritage foundation and that kind of misstatement along with other false recordkeeping submitted to the united states

government is a violation of the ethics in government act so there is a well-established means to accountability through a judicial conference investigation involving a figure like an inspector general, other agencies have them they do this investigation so do local prosecutors when a developer seeking a permit from the local building authorities for a development pays for improvements on an office holder's home. local prosecutors develop it and as a criminal case and investigate it there is nothing magic about the investigation that has to be done but what's key as you pointed out is accountability. whether it is through the department of justice

investigating or through the judicial conference with an inspector general or congress itself potentially through impeachment proceeding with this investigation. it cries out for the facts. >> if doj and an ig are not viable are you calling for an impeachment proceeding for justice thomas >> i'm very clear eyed about the likelihood of justice thomas resigning or about an impeachment proceeding beginning in a republican dominated congress, house of representatives. judiciary committee led by jim jordan unlikely to be sure but there should be consideration of it. >> just one more thing about the politics of this i want to play something that justice sotomayor said about the stench talking about a process where a super majority in a state house legislates in a way

designed to be met and received by the supreme court but it shows how the public sees the supreme court. >> now the sponsors of this bill, the house bill in mississippi, said we're doing it because we have new justices the new esteban that mississippi has put in place, the 6-week ban, the senate sponsor said we are doing it because we have new justices on the supreme court. will this institution survive the stench that this creates in the public perception that the constitution and its reading are just political acts? i don't see how it is possible >> last night after 11:00 p.m. in florida ron desantis signed a

six-week abortion ban into law without much fanfare do you want to take a stab at answering justice sotomayor's question can the supreme court stand the stench of states with republican super majorities legislating for a certain outcome on the supreme court? >> it has to withstand challenge. and there have to be some bipartisan agreements for the sake of our government the system of checks and balances is vital to sustaining public basic confidence and justice in the system of government and the court has to put some reins on the politicization. there's been a kind of political hardening of arteries. of blame the messenger mentality

that the american public is willing to go to the corners but the supreme court survivors on credibility and trust. chief justice roberts knows it better than anyone that's why his taking action right now is so vital to the court's survival of this stench which is growing and will infect the entire body politic. the supreme court has no other means of enforcement and people's belief that it is trying to do the right thing that justices are not politicians in robes they are really keepers of the public trust and fall more on anybody thought they would and as someone with deep respect for

the institution i am so deeply saddened, angry. but still believing. >> senator blumenthal, thank you very much for spending time on that. >> i want to maybe re-up what feels like a theme in this conversation talking act donald trump to what the senator just said, which is the law is not a set of party favors. not a thing to exculpate donald trump or clarence thomas what the senator said that i think is just so resoundingly important is that if we don't have a legitimate supreme court we don't have the rule of law. >> it has to survive. >> thank you so much for being part of the conversation j. the parents of "wall street journal" reporter speaking out

for the first time since their son was arrested and detained in russia what will it take to bring him home how long will that take? after a short break. we continue after a quick eabrk. don't go anywhere.

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what's one of the american qualities? that we absorbed be optimistic. believe in happy ending. that's where we stand right now. but i am not stupid. i understand what's involved but that's what i choose to

believe. >> wow that was the mom of detained "the wall street journal" reporter evan gershkovich speaking out with members of his family for the first time since her son was arrested and detained march 29. this week the state department designated that the 31-year-old american is wrongfully detained after being charged with espionage by the russians. today some optimistic news as gershkovich's mom speaking about. the kremlin is signaling through state media russia might be willing to discuss a potential prisoner swap with gershkovich after the court delivers a ruling in the case joining us now the journalist who spoke with his parents and joining us is former cia director and former u.s. ambassador to russia these interviews are heart breaking tell me what you -- i'm amazed

and wonder where the strength comes from when it is your child. >> i don't know. they're going through a lot. overwhelmed. but i would say strong is the word, the best describe them his mom said we stand strong for our son. they emigrated to the u.s. from the soviet union and absorbed by being american we believe in happy endings but they understand the reality of the situation. devastated their son is behind bars and moved by the support they are getting she talked about how special it is to be an american and have this community around you. they feel the love and all of it. >> what is it like to have a colleague doing his job. >> terrifying. he is very good at the job he was the reporter to hop on the phone, help us translate russian. give us a better understanding

of the country his sister said he saw russia with beauty and nuance he grew up speaking russian and in the culture he was a bridge. the colleagues describe him as a bridge for people in the west to understand the people there. we talk about the regime but the people and he gave a great voice to the people. it is heart breaking and we miss his biline every day. >> this is the sister. >> what was it like for you to read about russia through his reporting? >> i'm in awe of him we are so different. i'm a homebody i can't relate to him sometimes and the life he leads as a reporter i think the america reports on russia sometimes in a way that makes it seem like a terrifying,

cold place he was really passionate about showing other sides of russia. the nuance and the beauty of it. >> so profound. >> it is he really was dedicated to that. he wrote a wide range of stories. supporters, people that oppose the war. talked about powerful people in russia every day people in russia he did just saw the difference and russians a voice a voice we don't always hear in the u.s. one thing his father said is i believe his mom said he loved russia his dad said he still does not changing. >> the irony is layered. here's someone who may have been one of russia's best to tell a

fuller story about the russian people it is treating him -- the state department designated they wrongfully detained him. what is your sense of how he is being treated and the prospects for return >> i think evan is a brilliant journalist captured the essence of russian society and it is unsurprising in some respects that mr. putin decided to move against evan because he like other autocrats fears the truth and the media, the press because they uncover the truth. i'm sure that evan now is being used by the russians as a way to try to say that he was spying but not involved in espionage. he was involved in good

reporting. doing what all good reporters supposed to do and why mr. putin moved against him. i hope he is being treated well and fairly but again this is just a reflection of vladimir putin's brazen and continued authoritarian rule. >> as if we needed more of those. ambassador, we have had conversations around the men and women wrongfully detained by vladimir putin and there's no s sameness at all bah clear use of this as a weapon tell me what you think of the specifics of this kiscase and hw we should understand what we can't see behind the scenes to bring him home. >> two things. people are already talking about who should be traded for mr.

gershkovich. we needed another trade and i just thankfully there are americans that could have been traded with gershkovich i think it is important to underscore what john said. i never met him. i read the last article that he wrote. it was a great article i retweeted it several times it was about how sanctions in russia, against russia are having an affect on the economy. he did it with a co-writer one of the best pieces i had read and what vladimir putin doesn't want us the know and russians, too. i think that's why this is so doubly troubling not just swapping or russian criminals held in germany. this is a signal to anybody that wants to do independent

reporting, russians, americans, europeans. it is dangerous to do so and will have a chilling effect. it already has they are achieving the objective. >> is there a reexamining the policy of journalists do this great reporting in the country >> i can't speak to policies but the journal is not backing down. all over the world if anything this makes us more encouraged to get to the bottom of what is happening russia is an interesting place right now. things are changing. but as far as our reporting goes there will be no changing on how we go after the truth. the best thing you can do in honor of evan is to do that. >> nice to see you again at this table. >> thank you. >> these are extraordinary interviews with the family. >> thank you so much. >> we'll ask you to stick

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one day after the fbi completed one of the quickest

investigation in leak documents one suspect appeared in court. jack teixeira was charged with having national defense materials with a maximum of ten years behind bars. learning more about how and why he had a hold of those documents and disseminated them, for those watching closely on the fringes of the right in american politics right after his arrest the instinct not to support law enforcement or u.s. national security or the pentagon or intelligence but to support the guy that endangered those things marjorie taylor greene tweeted support for the leaker pushing the anti-ukrainian line.

director brennan, i thought this represented a dangerous and important escalation of the right for national security threats. it is one thing to cheer for the jailed january 6 defendants and many of who filmed the criminal acts but to take someone who has leaked national security, defense information and before all the facts are known leap to the defense on the most watched program on fox news represents a stunning and dangerous new development on the right. >> yes these comments are absolutely contemptible they are doing putin's bidding for him. and by these comments they are disrespecting and disparaging the sacrifices that have made every day by men and women in

the services those who really do all they can to keep the fellow citizens safe people like greene who says the things it really just shows not just the ignorance but trying to undermine the national security and the country's freedom and democracy and i can't understand what is motivating them other than playing to the far right, a group of people having no sense of what this country's values, democracy is all about and that's why i don't have words to express my anger and disdain for what she and others are saying. >> i look to where the chips are falling on the right i didn't see and if i missed it i'll air it on monday but didn't see pompeo or ratcliffe, two trump appointees, condemn the

support for the leaker but what seems to endanger the country and its institutions regardless of who is running them and in control is the illegality here is not in dispute. charged with a crime probable cause and the reflex and the permission structure to do it again and disseminated it is done the damage is done i wonder, john mentioned the russians could they have been that efficient in their dreams? >> maybe i doubt it this is a self inflicted wound i agree with what john said. i can't understand it and how anybody that cares about the united states of america who wants america can be great can

look at what this gentleman did and say how does this advance the interests of the united states of america? that is illogical to me. he's not making the claims this is different from other leakers who said they had a thing to try to do to advance democracy in america this is not that and yet they do this and i have to say i'm perplexed by it i don't understand the strategy. >> i don't pretepid to understand the strategy but i do know what happens on the right pompeo won't boycott carlson's show he wants to be president neither will john ratcliffe. the cowardice on the right is a feature of the trumpian right and the casualty over and over

isn't just the rule of law but the very thing that is protect every one of us. how do we function as a democracy is one of the two parties shrugged the shoulder when threatened? >> one of the parties does do that all the time. those encouraging this behavior and the tift are abetting the undermining of the national security i'm still waiting for the republican party to come to the senses and so few individuals in the republican party right now who i think feel strongly about u.s. national security to be protected. they need to denounce the comments made by greene and others if they believe that the national security is important to be protected and safe guarded in the future.

>> liz cheney came out swinging saying that greene should not have a security clearance. i'll ask you bottoh weigh in on that on the other side of a quick break. it's the city that never sleeps... but hey, if you need a last minute spot... i've got you covered. let's link up at hotels.com young lady who was, you know, mid 30s, couple of kids, recently went through a divorce. she had a lot of questions when she came in.

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disdain for american efforts to bolster ukraine on the battlefield in its war against russia i don't like to give the right too much credit for having a policy objective, but this is what tucker carlson said he praised him who told american what is's actually happening in ukraine and complaining like the news media is treating him like bin laden, maybe worse the idea that this is the enemy becomes my friend because he, too, is against the war in ukraine feels like a dangerous flashing red light >> well, yes, it's a dangerous flashing red light on the policy perspective, it's wrong. i categorically disagree with tucker's view about the european security and ukraine but it's bigger than that. they don't get to parse it that way. this leak also did real damage to our relationship with south korea. and on the next breath, the

tucker carlson and others are always saying we've got to be tougher on china, tougher on china. wait a minute. you cannot want to be tougher on china and have a sound policy towards china as i do and say this is okay to do this damage in other words, we have national security issues here we don't have democrat and republican security. when they cherry-pick things that just fit their narrative and not see the bigger damage that is done to i think our place in the world and our institutions, as john talked about, that i think is extremely dangerous. >> yeah. and i think in the spirit of damaging u.s. national security interests around the globe, liz cheney tweeted this, john. marjorie taylor greene makes clear yet again she cannot be trusted with america's national security information and should not have a security clearance of any kind i wanted to know why she does. she has the homeland security of all things

do you agree the speaker said there wasn't anything he would don't for mar marjorie taylor greene this probably isn't a solvable national security problem. >> from my perspective, i think greene has demonstrated time and time again she's not fit to hold public office with some of the public commentary she's made previously therefore, i believe she should not be involved in any type of sensitive, classified information. she has some clearances because of her role within the congress and position on committee tees, but in light of these comments that are made -- and as you pointed out before, you could have this bizarre policy view we shouldn't be helping ukraine if you have that, you could still decry and condemn the unauthorized disclosure of our classified information that has been putting damage to our interests abroad therefore, i totally agree with liz cheney and more and more i find myself in league with her i'm glad to see that she, among the few republicans out there, has a voice and is willing to

speak up >> all too rare. thank you so much for ending our week with this conversation. it's great to see both of you. we'll be right back.

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