who wished him well, thanked his doctors, how good it was to be about a, and then went right back to banging on the biden administration for in this case not negotiating with speaker mb car a mccarthy on the debt limit so not missing a step much there. we'll see tomorrow when he takes questions from reporters, we'll get more of a taste of where he his thinking is on all these issues building up while he has been out >> including dianne feinstein, will he help the democrats replace here on judiciary. garrett haake, thank you very much that will do it for me "dea right now. hi there, everyone happy monday it is 4:00 in new york a twist in the high stakes $1.6 billion defamation case brought by dominion voting systems

against the giant of right where i think media and one of the big purchase vsayers of collection fraud conspiracy today was supposed to be day one of the blockbuster trial. sayern fraud conspiracy today was supposed to be day one of the blockbuster trial but they said that it was pushed back to tuesday. no official reason was given judge davis said this morning that it was not unusual for delays like this but the "wall street journal" which happens to be owned by the murdoch family reports fox has made a late push to settle the dispute with dominion voting systems out of court, that is according to people familiar with the situation the "washington post" reports this, two people familiar with the case said that two sides are scheduled to meet monday to determine if a last minute deal to avoid trial could be brokered one of the people said that the judge had asked the parties to make a final effort to settle the issue before proceeding with

the trial. these talks are happening in the aftermath of a series of rulings that effectively hamstrung fox's ability to mount a defense for one, fox is not allowed to suggest that the lies and conspiracies it aired repeatedly about dominion were anything other than that, lies and conspiracies the judge has ruled the evidence developed in the civil proceeding demonstrates that it is crystal clear that none of the statements relating to go minute why not about the 2020 election are true. if the case proceeds to trial tomorrow, we could also expect weeks of courtroom testimony from its top hosts, executives and quite possibly rupert murdoch himself. thousand, back to this late night talk last night about a settlement a settlement would avoid a long and lengthy trial battle, legal battle, one that fox news has reportedly planning to take all the way to the country's highest court. "new york times" reports fox

lawyers are already preparing for an appeal, a sign they are under no illusion that beating dominion's case will be easy at several recent hearings in front of judge davis, fox has been represented by erin murphy. the belief that the supreme court could eventually hear the case is shared by the general counsel of fox corp who is likely to be called as a witness by dominion during the trial and he told colleagues privately that he believes fox's odds at the supreme court would be good, certainly better than in front of a delaware jury sure to keep a closer eye on whatever happens, voting technology company smartmatic which is pursuing its own defamation case for $2.7 billion against fox news questions swirling over what comes next for fox news and dominion amid a brief delay in the trial. that is where we begin with some

of our favorite reporters and friends. jeremy peters is here, his byline is on the reporting we read from. always joining us, a law professor at the university of utah and first amendment scholar. and also joining us, lawyer lee levine he has represented media clients in libel and first amendment cases. and we start with you, lee what would be on the table for a settlement when everything that is public facing seems so far apart? dominion wants an apology. they want to be clear that these conspiracies were lies fox is up and on the air pretty regularly not really walking too far away from election conspiracies >> well, i think that there are two things on the table, nicolle. first is money and the second is what form of statement is going to be made and who is going to make it and where they are going

to make it the money part it seems to me is probably the easiest of all of those. ironically the hard part is whether or not fox will be willing to make a full throated apology and retraction and what the wordsmithing of that will be and also whether that is just the statement that is issued or whether it has to be read on the air and if so, how many times and who has to read it does it have to be read on every show that is at issue in the lawsuit, does it have to be read on hannity, does it have to be read on maria bartiromo's show, does it have to be read on tucker carlson's show. i think those are the knotty issues >> and murdoch suggested that they recant some of the conspiracies how does dominion in the end settle for less than what

murdoch himself suggested? >> yeah, i really don't think that dominion is willing to settle for less than that. and that i think is what is holding it up. i think that the judge would not have delayed the trial today with the minimal inconvenience that that causes to the jury pool if he did not think that they had made some progress. and my best guess, and i have no inside information at all, butnt they are fighting over are the kinds of things that we've just been talking about. >> lee, i wonder what smartmatic is watching this sort of 11th hour negotiation and thinking and looking for. what do you think? >> i think that they are probably opening up enough bank accounts to fill with the money that they are likely to get when they are up next >> oh, wow what bearing does whether or not

this goes to trial if any have on smartmatic's case if tox is willing to settle with dominion and basically did the same thing, some are arguing even most of egregious, but basically the same thing about smartmatic, is that good sign for smartmatic that it is in line for a settlement as well if it goes that way >> yeah, it is an excellent sign and i think that fox has calculated as part of its effort to settle this case that it wants to be done with all of this so in the calculation, i suspect is why does it take to settle the smartmatic case as with well >> jeremy met peters, we had technical issues so i don't know how much of the conversation you've heard, but you did important reporting ahead of the drama. and i wonder if you can take us through your sort of a stage-setting piece about the stakes of a trial, what is sacrificed if anything, if there

is a settlement. dominion seems to have a legal mission here but also a moral one against lies and propaganda and disinformation that has harmed their company and their employees. take me through where things stand in your view >> so you hit on something really important which is why i think that talks of a settlement are not -- a little bit overblown. i think dominion sees this case as something much larger than just a billion dollar settlement it is something very personal. and it is something that means a lot for the country. is someone going to have to pay a price for the lies that really kind of tore at the fabric of our democracy, that really undermined our very institutions of representative government and dominion from what i understand is not so eager to

just let a dollar amount make that different so yes, there were headlines last night that were very provocative and of course there will be talks of the sort in any large -- with this many lawyers involved, there is going to be talks of a last minute deal i don't see that coming together what the judge said this morning and i was in court, i'm in wilmington, delaware right now, and i saw the judge and he said basically like look, this is not that unusual there are all sorts of delays. let's not get carried away here. that my sources are waving me off of any types of talks of settlement and i really -- i was surprised,

let put it that way, to see those kinds of stories >> and maybe this is the sort of a circular conundrum that fox finds itself in because, because dominion has made this about obviously a textbook case where the whole country all of us are learning obviously you didn't need it, but the other piece for dominion and every ultitterance that they have made was about the cost, about literally the damage that these lies did to this company there was some great reporting in your piece about how financially secure the company was, so the damages are both moral and financial. and brand related. i don't know how many republican elected officials are going to be standing in line for dominion voting equipment the damages are so real. i can't imagine dominion having much of a motivation structure

to settle. tell us sort of your take on that and deepen that thought >> so i think that both sides in this case, nicolle, have gone to great lengths to try to demonstrate to the judge that they are acting on good faith. and that has been very important to fox especially because the judge has reprimanded fox and he has told them, look, you guys have -- you know, you are objecting too much you withheld evidence. and i've sanctioned you. and i think what could be going on here is that the judge has said, look, you guys, just talk. we're about to start a six week trial. i'm about to swear in 12 jurors and six alternates for a long time like i'm sitting here in

wilmington, delaware right now, i'm about to be here for another six weeks just like the jurors are. and you know, he wants to see some type of demonstrations of responsibility and so i think that could be it, that dominion is really just saying, okay, fineof responsibility and so i think that could be it, that dominion is really just saying, okay, fine we'll put good faith effort toward talking about a deal even if we don't think there is one to be had but i really do believe that if this could have been settled, it would have been settled months ago. >> yeah, and strategically legal and reputationally, that would have made the most sense we've already seen all their dirty laundry, their hatred for trump and hatred for their decision desk. we've seen hatred for their own fact checkers. and he also worked to get them fired. i want to focus everyone on the substance of the defamation case

these are some of the clips that we might expect to see in a trial. >> we have tremendous evidence already of fraud in this election >> the money creating it came out of venezuela and cuba. it was created for the express purpose of being able to alter votes and secure the re-election of hugo chavez and then -- >> way beyond what people think including a dangerous foreign company that did the votes in 27 states, a company not american, a company that is foreign, a company that has close, close ties with venezuela and therefore china. >> and again, i heard those clips at the time. i remember having to make decisions myself as a host about whether to cover them. but something different about doing them in the context of this trial they aren't sloppy misstatements, at least in the ace case of rudy and powell

confused utterances. they are specific scripted intentional lies about dominion. how central is that to the question that will be put before the jury >> it is quite central it is really the key to go minute i don't know's narrative arc here that we will see laid out starting with opening arguments to the jury if we move forward with this tomorrow the real theme here of dominion's case is that this wasn't just sloppiness or bias or inaccuracy. it was a conscious corporate decision to lie. and i think that we'll probably see the table set tomorrow in opening arguments sort of suggesting to the jury that that is the stickiness of the facts that they will have to grab on to over the course of the next many weeks as piece of evidence after piece of evidence is put before them. the table setting that is going

to be happening here from dominion is really going to be trying to focus the jury's attention on this theme that it, dominion, believes fox made a decision to do this, that it saw audiences gravitating elsewhere and wanted to appease those audiences and then pivoted its coverage to amplify these conspiratorially lies in order to win back that audience share. >> and what is the role of the statements and things that we've seen from board members in proving that inside the mothership they knew they had a problem both with knowing broadcasting and in some instances and i think some of these clips are rebroadcast after they were notified that they were false and defamatory what is the role of sort of the internal alarms being pulled >> yes, all of that goes to go minute i don't know's effort to prove up that these weren't just lies but knowing lies which is the critical constitutional barrier that they have to clear.

the body of evidence that they have got in that direction includes important internal documents, people in fox saying different things to each other than they were saying to their audience but it also includes communications from dominion to fox. 19 of the 20 statements here dominion says were broadcasted after dominion alerted fox to the falsity of these statements and sort of pointed it in the direction of accurate information. and so all of that combined is going to be evidence that we're going to see dominion putting before a jury to suggest a state of mind. dominion's job here is to show the jury that sort of what fox knew and when it knew it that will be the center piece of several weeks of evidence. >> jeremy, i want to put a couple names i think viewers of this program have been following

your reporting and our coverage closely enough to know some of these figures, but i want you to underscore how they are and how they might be used by douminion one is dinh. when the executives atfox news know that the hosts of shows are broadcasting he allegations that the executives know or believe to be false, in that situation the oak differences have an obligation to act, right and the answer, if they are within the chain of command and if they come to that knowledge, yes. question, by act that means put a stop to it, right? they have an obligation under those circumstances, the executives do, in the chain of command to put a stop to those broadcasts, right, sir and the answer, yes, to prevent and correct known falsehoods jeremy, just first, to your earlier point about settling, i imagine veet and rupert not

being deposed, their knowledge on the part of the wrongdoing on the hosts and broadcast, and their conversations up a chain of command, and i think rupert murdoch's firmly established position, is incredibly incriminating, no? >> so what dominion's task is going to be beyond proving just that, that there was a chain of command there and that folks who have very senior positions knew what was on fox's airwaves was false, is proving that the people with responsibility for those individual shows knew it was wrong. and that is why testimony from people like abby grossburg who we've talked about before, she is a producer for maria bartiromo who was responsible

for spewing some of the most outrageous falsehoods about dominion machines. do people like maria bartiromo and her producers, did they know what they were putting on the air at the time was false. or did they have -- did they act so recklessly in overlooking the evidence that they acted with, you know, what your two smarter lawyers than i am about the law on this show will be able to say is reckless disregard for the truth. and i think that that is the easier part of fox's case even though you have -- sorry, dominion's case even though you have this ample evidence of the state of mind of these folks like tucker carlson who say, you know, this is bonkers. sydney powell is crazy, she's nuts, she is smoking crack, she is smoking -- on lsd, like all

that stuff it is good evidence, but ultimately i think that the recklessness here could be what this case boils down to. because as much as it is very headline generating and very interesting to all of us, to hear what tucker carlson said about his guests and what tucker carlson said about trump and being in this demonic force and this sdrodestroyer and all thatt will boil down to very particular specific instances of recklessness and it is the kind of thing like maria bartiromo saying, that woman who talks to the wind was her source, right? i think that is the recklessness that the case will return on >> so if this is the last time we get to talk to you if it starts tomorrow, what are you watching for you first, lee

>> i am going to be very interested to hear what fox says in its opening statement tomorrow we already know what dominion is going to say but fox has been stripped of so many of the arguments that it has made throughout the case it cannot argue that it is absolved because what it was reporting was newsworthy it cannot argue that it is absolved because it was just putting on statements by other people, that is, giuliani and powell and lindell if it cannot argue that it is absolved because in other shows they put in what dominion's side of the story was that leaves fox with very, very little to argue in the face of the kind of evidence that jeremy was talking about on the issue of whether or not it published with actual malice so i'm going to be looking for that tomorrow.

>> and you get the last word >> yes, i agree especially interested in seeing what themes fox tries to weave for the jury. i think that given that it lost the opportunity to assert some of the key defenses that it hoped to be able to assert, it will now have to emphasize how hard the burden is on dominion so what we'll see is both cases, both sides of the case, being argued from dominion's vantage point. the question of whether -- who knew what and when is going to be at the center piece and will kick off tomorrow with some of this important beginning theme-setting by both parties, figuring out how fox is going to thread the needle between conveying the kinds of powerful first amendment arguments that it wants to make to the jury while not crossing any of the lines that the judge has warned it not to cross, that will be one of the most interesting pieces of tomorrow's

developments >> i believe that you have all been warned, if not one more time, please pick up our calls and stay free in the afternoons. thank you all so much for starting us off this hour. when we come back, republicans are back from recess, but many of them spent their first day back in new york acting like they were in the playground attacking the prosecutor who is aiming to put the ex-president behind bars we'll fill you in on the latest there. plus new signs of the mar-a-lago classified documents case could pose a more immediate threat to the ex-president than we realized. what new evidence has emerged in jack smith's investigation and later, how the drip, drip, drip, drip of revelations about justice clarence thomas is painting a damning picture of just how badly the nation's highest court is in need of ethics oversight the latest very questionable discovery we're learning about today from some great new investigative journalism and much more when "deadline: white

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like thugs they have descended on new york city using violent crime as their pretext the maga republican extremists are not interested in gun violence or even knife violence. >> jim jordan engages in a lot of political theater in washington, but he should know better than to take his tired act to broadway. >> he said scales of justice are being weighed down by politics and they are, but only today

>> a new york welcome. a cartoonish h ish plot backfird spectacularly today. intended effect if you haven't heard about it yet of their field hearing in new york city was to embarrass manhattan d.a. alvin bragg to use the city's crime statistics to make a point which point isn't totally clear to me about what a d.a. should be doing with his time rather than investigating and prosecuting a twice impeached ex-president but instead, the circus the republicans brought to town raised a much different series of questions, which is this -- whether all of this is really what republicans should be doing with their time even in front of their own viewers and voters they got an authentic new york city welcome today in that they were routinely shouted at in the hallway. something jim jordan could have a voided if he had chosen a different location like one with

higher crime rates if that was his ostensible point today for instance or maybe traveling just south of jordan's own district, columbus, ohio, perhaps where the crime rate is about three times that of new york city's but no, today's clown show is not about violence crime there or here or solving problems anywhere it was about keeping their boss donald j. trump happy about showing him, donald j. trump that no political stunt is too idiotic or illogical or unjustified to appease his badly damaged ego. with us at the table, congressional reporter tim miller is joining us and luke, tell us what happened today. >> well, it was a busy day there was i think more than four hours of testimony and argument. and i mean, there was a very i

would say nasty and heated hearing. you know, a lot of really charged language >> were there witnesses? >> yes >> who >> there were witnesses called by the house republicans who most of them are outspoken critics of alvin bragg many of them have actually really horror stories. you know, a loved one who was killed in the city or a relative who was the victim of an anti-semitic attack, things like this, but they have since become outspoken critics of alvin bragg. so they were chosen for those reasons. and that did present some times where democrats were saying essentially we feel your pain, we understand your case you've been through a lot, but you are being used here, you are being used as pawns in a political game and that did prompt some backlash from some of the witnesses who went back and forth with some of the democrats. but this was set up as you said

with a single purpose to, you know, vilify alvin bragg to make him look bad for as long as they could keep it on television. and to support donald trump. you know, they definitely got some hours and hours of that in. >> and was it broadcast on fox news was. >> remember they had the whole issue with c-span refusing to carry it and i don't think that forks cov fox covered it live. but there was a fair amount of media in the room. the new york media seems really intense. a you know, there were protestors outside both for and against what the republicans were doing. some people were demanding that bragg resign so it was really quite a scene >> i mean, if you just do like the quickest bit of staff work, you say to your boss ifs jim jordan, hey, dude, crime is not a super strong thing for us, maybe we should focus on, i

don't know, something else that trump cares about. any response to the crime stats snare from his hometown? >> there was a bunch of back and forth about crime statistics obviously. and it was emphasized again and again by the democrats on the panel and even mayor adams who had an event before the committee hearing that new york is one of the safest big cities in the country there was an uptick of crime around the time of the pandemic, that happened in many cities but if you look at statistically per capita, all these other cities in the country, it is still one of the top five safest big cities in the country. and some years the safest big city in the country. new york for many years was seen as the turnaround story for big cities >> and rudy was a part of it frankly at some point in history. tim, i wonder if you can take -- i tried to establish the facts to sort of tee this up for you to do with it what you wish. the show is the point.

right? and i'm curious, i should have found out before i came on the air if fox aired it in its entirety i'm guessing it is more clips for their social media accounts and appearances later in the day on fox anecdotally, any victim of crime anywhere is a horrifically tragic story anywhere. but in terms of policymakers holding a hearing and trying to advance some policy, new york city is not the best example if the ostensible purpose was crime stats. what do you make of their use of the taxpayer dollar on a flagrantly political mission >> here is the thing, as much as this was a total clown show and jim jordan is getting shouted down and called a traitor and we saw the intro just kind of how embarrassing this was, this is one of the better things that he's done since he's gotten the gavel. by comparison at least this hearing was about an issue that people care about. just the execution was horrible. because the details aren't there. new york as you and luke

discussed is very safe on a per capita basis even big ohio cities like leavcleveland and columbus but if you look at what jim jordan's whole thing has been since republicans won the house in november, it will be that we'll investigate the biden administration and he has gone down all these absurd rabbit holes and the hunter bihunt er biden and twitter files, all the stuff that nobody cares about outside of the fox news cinematic universe unless you are watching ten hours of conservative media a day, you don't even know what jim jordan is talking about. at least today he picked an issue that people understand it. crime is going up in a lot big cities but new york is one of the weaker examples to makebecause they had to go to new york because what is the real purpose for this service to donald trump. right? like if donald trump is out of the picture and republicans could have a hearing about

crime, they would go to places where the crime is the highest, right? you could pick out plenty of cities in the country dealing with crime issues right now, some run by democrats. but they can't do that because what this really was was an attempt to run cover for donald trump. donald trump still runs the show, still runs the party, and he hamstrings them and you get the clown show that we got today. >> on your point about jim jordan, let me read you some of luke's great reporting today over eight terms in the house, jordan has not been the lead sponsor of a single bill that became law earning him a perennial ranking from the center for effective lawmakers as among the least effective members of congress. he is also the chairman of a powerful new subcommittee created at the insistence of right wing republicans to scrutinize what they call weaponization of government against conservatives which has yet to produce any new bombshell revelations despite a budget of $20 million a year no single member of congress has

done more to push house republicans to the right forcing more mainstream and establishment figures in the party to cede ground to the arch conservatives. and where that has brought most republicans in most swing states is to render them nearly unelectable. the jim jordan mission is catastrophic compared to their own last effort at politicization in the malhalls f congress he is a 145d dough of what that committee was, he is a joke, like an incompetence imitation of what that effort was. and so i presume that luke's reporting is accurate. he is the person most responsible for lurching the party to the right to be unelectable fringe it is not working. it counts for a lot of their less than grand outcomes in the midterms than it has people from the right and the left at the journalist and operative level very neervous for '24.

>> luke's article was great. the interesting thing to me that i found reading it, jordan really is like this microcosm of the whole party. you see there the headline that he is a fighter aligned with trump. his whole brand is that i'm a fighter. i learned how to fight from jim jordan and he gave me confidence to fight but what do they fight for that is the thing. >> and who is he fighting with they are in control. this is so silly like they were fighting when trump -- when republicans ran everything what people want when you are in power is to govern they have never done that. >> yes, right. and today is an example. if you are fighting for victims of crime, you will be saying, oh, hey, we're proposing reforms like we're proposing police reforms, whatever it is. we think that it will make our streets safer. that is not this this is just a big show to performatively fight alvin brag. that is what the whole trump era has been they want people to be this

supposedly big middle finger to the left, but they are not actually doing anything. it is just all of the made for tv culture war locw calorie nonsense and in luke's article, it is like any time that he had to actually face real adversity, whether it is the doctor at ohio state that he was working alongside that was victimizing young men, you know, whether it is donald trump trying a coup, whether the party going into shambles, he has not taken on any of those fights. he is not fighting donald trump. he didn't fight that doctor. he is not doing any of the hard things it is just all this, oh, i can do a good tweet or a good -- have a good hearing performance that makes fun of somebody that my people hate and that is fighting i guess in this sort of distorted world view and that is the whole party now. and he has had success within the party because he represents that even as the party has gotten smaller and smaller over the time that he has been in power. >> amazing

a great piece of reporting i need you two to stick around up next for all of us, trump lawyer evan corcoran reportedly recduced from the classified documents investigation being run by jack smith just weeks after testifying in front of the special counsel. we'll talk about the significance of that you're doing business in an app driven, multi-cloud world. that's why you choose vmware. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you keep your cloud options open.

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building over recent weeks of developments and new public facing evidence, signs if you will, all suggesting that obstruction of justice charges could be coming in the doj investigation into the ex-president's handling of classified documents the "washington post" reports that top trump lawyer evan corcoran has recduced himself from representing the ex-president specifically in the special counsel's documents case more from that reporting, grand jury proceedings are secret, so it is not immediately clear how helpful corcoran's testimony might be to jack smith and his team, but legal ethics rules including those in maryland and washington, d.c. generally bar lawyers from acting as advocates at trial when they are likely to be essential witnesses corcoran played a key role in trump's legal team's communications with doj's efforts to obtain documents including drafting their claim that they have conducted a, quote, diligent certainly months

before the fbi would go on to find more than 100 documents still in trump's possession. last month corcoran was forced to testify before the federal grand jury after the judge found investigators uncovered sufficient evidence that trump had committed a crime thus fears the fraud crime protection joining our conversation, harry litman is here to make sense of it tell us what to makes a tea leaf readers of this corcoran reporting in the "washington post." >> i think that it is pretty big stuff. so first, it is obviously because he is going to be a witness in a mar-a-lago case that is important in and of itself second, although the post says it is not clear what he will discuss, i think it is clear remember, he very communications he had with trump, a judge already looked at and found were evidence of a crime. what crime, almost certainly obstruction. the very crime that trump is

likely to be charged with. in other words, corcoran will be a star witness for the very charge that smith is likely to bring when he brings it and what did the president say to you and he has to fess up with evidence that already has been judged to be more likely than not and perhaps way more likely than not evidence of a crime. finally, the trigger is the trial itself so that corcoran decided to do it is some soft indication that they are really anticipating charges from smith in this matter because he could have stayed his hand on recusing even though it was the smarter move move after the grand jury testimony. >> and in the "post," it says evan corcoran is still representing trump in other cases such as jack smith's probe into the attack on the u.s. capitol according to these people is that normal that trump says

you are going to be a witness against me if i'm found guilty of obstructing the probe, it will be in part because of your testimony against me i think what corcoran was involved in was something that christina bob bobb also tried to say. why does trump keep him as a defense lawyer in other criminal investigations >> he really likes him and trump has trouble keeping people first, it makes evidence more probative. and this is the guy who yo working for donald trump and what did he tell you so that that is one point. and, you know, it is unusual it is unusual, but it is trump's call so this is not a trumpian fit where he just gets rid of a lawyer, this is corcoran himself sitting i can't help you on

mar-a-lago at the end of the day it will be ungamely for corcoran to be involved in other trials we'll see if he sticks around or has any other outfront role. but it does show you he is still part of team trump and yet he will have to put the knife in because the judges have already ruled that he must testify >> it has like a historical echo to what trump wanted pence do, just tell the truth and abide by the law. especially in the documents case trump may not understand that yet. i want to readcoran came to thie judge orders ruling that corcoran must testify said to be accompanied by an 86 page memorandum of law. she found that the justice department had met the threshold for having a credible case that trump had obstructed justice justifying its request to

override attorney/client privilege. so if this has happened and he has reduced, jack smits already knows everything about these incidents. >> if i'm reading this correctly, we don't know everything that is happening with the grand jury, but it certainly seems like that they are focused very much on this instance about whether trump lied to them -- >> and told them to lie. >> -- told them to lie about giving augusll the documents ba. and that corcoran had to recuse himself essentially because he would have an obvious conflict of interest. so this to me is a very clear signal about how close they are on this obstruction of justice charge that, you know, corcoran had to take this step. >> harry, i hate running a clock and asking questions of timing it is clear that jack smith is moving with a laachraouiity, something that we talk about a

lot on this show but when you are the lawyer, where are you in a criminal investigation in terms of making a charging decision? >> really, really close to the finish line. but of course now corcoran testified it has been a couple weeks and at the time, i and others said, boy, this shows he must be pretty close and then we got reliable reporting that smith had garnered yet more evidence from people around mar-a-lago of more incriminating stuff. so he could be putting icing on the cake or building things out more but it really seems like -- i'll put this way, i'm hard pressed to see important big moves that he has left before putting a package together for the attorney general's approval. >> i have to get tim miller on this this is the case, this is the prosecution that bill barr is most enthusiastic about. and i want to ask you why you think that is. and we'll be right back.

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in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you innovate and grow. hey, man. you could save hundreds for safe driving with liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance. so you only pay for what you need! whoo! we gotta go again. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ we're back with luke, harry and tim. so tim miller, the obstruction of the documents case is the piece of the criminal investigations into trump that is most known because a lot of it's in the affidavit that doj releases after the court-approved search. it's also the piece that republicans feel most comfortable piling onto. why do you think that is >> i think it's just the cut and dried nature of it

and trump's behavior is so unique they're all sort of culpable in a certain way about the insurrection accounts. the stormy daniels thing feels a littlefluffy this is direct all these guys in washington, the bill barrs, they have to deal with classified documents they all know the rules. it's like so obvious that he broke the rules. that i think maybe they feel the most comfortable talking about it in the most narrow way. right? it doesn't affect their broader political project. the whole thing, i just have to say, sitting here and listening to all this, the craziest part of all this, this guy is so knee deep in investigations that there's one investigation where his lawyer is testifying against him, another investigation where the lawyer is representing him and neither of those are the investigations that he's been indicted for and he's the front-runner for 2024 just sometimes you have to step back and appreciate just how much is coming down on this guy's head and if you're bill barr, who really wants donald trump to disappear, finding a case where it's open and shut that does not

have kind of an ideological political bent to it, maybe you hope that jack smith can do your dirty work for you >> tim, do you think mcconnell regrets not whipping ten more votes against indicting trump in the senate when he had the chance he basically puts this in motion, right? he refers trump criminally to doj to deal with >> he absolutely should. it's all over. there are now nine senators that have endorsed trump for 2024 seven voted to convict him which would have prevented him from running again he's past the convictors with his endorsements but those convictors, that was the moment they were done with him. of course he regrets it. i think he made this calculation that he couldn't have survived because you would have lost the maga adiehards but you've lived through this midterm loss, you see what's coming down the pipe now he absolutely should regret it whether he does, i don't know. he's a stubborn guy. it's by far the biggest mistake that the party's made politically, i mean, besides

just getting on board with trump in the first place, in a long, long time. >> tim, i'm going to give you the last 90 seconds to say something about this incredible reporting from your colleague sarah longwell, i think, about how trump changed the party. but it almost doesn't matter, right? like that was the window and historians will look at that opportunity to convict and be done with him as perhaps the only and best opportunity for the party to move on >> sarah does these focus groups for the bulwark and she wanted to take away what she's learned from them. the main thing is when you hear from republican voters they've liked what has happened since trump. that might seem insane to the rest of us but that is just the reality the preponderance of republican voters like the change and if you're a republican who smells like you're from b.t., before trump, you don't have a chance in this party anymore and i think her article does a great job explaining why that is and where things are going it's not exactly an uplifting article of course but i think it's important to understand where the party is from the mouths of actual voters that she spent a lot of time listening to

firsthand. >> it's also important as we cover the insanity, as we ask, you know, why jim jordan comes up here without any substance when the party's already bleeding voters, it is this box that they're in, that trumpism is the party the party can't move on. but it's a real open question whether trumpism can win >> one of the things jordan said in the article was that the party is now the populist party after trump. and that's been pretty clear >> it's amazing. thank you to all of you for being part of our coverage this hour harry hitman, luke broadwater at the table and tim, thank you so much for more of our best legal analysis and reporting sign up for our newsletter sent straight to your inbox. you can scan the qr code on your screen right now to sign ip rupt i right now for the deadline legal newsletter up next for us another revelation in the mysterious case of the finances of supreme court justice clarence thomas. a quick break for us we'll be back with that story next

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now, this isn't some new phenomenon we've seen justices both liberal and conservative promote political fund-raisers, speak at partisan events, fail to recuse themselves from cases with pretty clear conflicts of interest and if the past is prologue, the recent incident that has gained a lot of attention regarding justice thomas's family, it won't be the last. >> hi again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. a prescient senator chris murphy, who made those comments

about justice clarence thomas more than a year ago at that time the senator was speaking about the conflict of interest when clarence thomas did not recuse himself from cases around the ex-president and the ex-president's allies, efforts to overturn the 2020 election result, despite thomas's wife, ginni thomas, being an active and enthusiastic participant in the attempted coup plot. as bad as that was and as murphy foreshadows there in the clip, it's not the end of the controversies around justice clarence thomas. seemingly every single day as of late there are new revelations and new questions about clarence thomas's ethics and financial disclosures that emerge including yet another over the weekend in reporting from the "washington post." the "washington post" reports that over the last two decades the justice has reported that his family receives rental income from a firm called ginger limited. but there's a problem. quote, that company, a nebraska

real estate firm launched in the '80s by his wife and her relatives, has not existed since 2006 that year, 2006, the family real estate company was shut down and a separate firm was created. since that time, however, 2006, thomas has continued to report income from the defunct company. between 50,000 and $100,000 every year in recent years and there's no mention of the new firm ginger holdings, llc in the forms clarence and ginni thomas had no response to questions or requests for comment from the "washington post." reports over these past few weeks around clarence thomas have painted a picture of a justice who seems to not take seriously or one who is being purposefully misleading on his financial disclosure forms let's take stock of what we have learned in the last few weeks. first propublica shockingly reports that nearly every year for the last 20 the thomases accept luxury trips from their

friend and republican mega donor harlan crow. that includes a nine-day trip in 2019 around indonesia aboard crow's superyacht. and none of these trips are anywhere on his disclosures. there was also the reporting about actual money exchanging hands between the two. in 2014 harlan crow buys the house that justice clarence thomas's mom lives in. along with other properties on her block. again, thomas disclosures none of those transaction az publicly in fact, since 2004 thomas has reported receiving only two gifts, one of which, a bronze bust of frederick douglass worth over $6,000, was a gift from, wait for it, harlan crow now, democrats have raised the alarm about these new controversies, these new revelations all coming out from investigative journalism, saying that the doj now needs to investigate. and some have gone so far as to say thomas should resign or be

impeached. all this comes as the supreme court struggles with and complains bitterly and publicly about having record low levels of public trust. i may not be the smartest person on tv but i'm going to guess that these revelations are not helping. more questions emerging about justice clarence thomas's finances is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts friends. brian fallon is here he's co-founder and executive director of progressive -- the progressive judicial advocacy group called demand justice. also joining us former rnc chairman and msnbc contributor michael steele is here and cecile rips ichards is back she's co-chair of american bridge and former president of planned parenthood cecile, i want to start with you. i think it's bob woodward who says the truth emerges, that eventually this will all come out. any organization that's been under scrutiny, i've worked in a few of them, has two choices to make at this juncture. to dump, get it all out, get it over with and rebuild. or just take the cuts, take the

pain day in and day out. it is already clear that clarence thomas is pulling the reputation of the supreme court down with him and it's going to die a reputational death of 1,000 cuts >> it is really stunning, kknic nicolle, that he wouldn't just come clean with everything but apparently he seems to think he's above the law and of course this is all feeding into the americans' distrust of the court that i think largely came out of the dobbs decision where you had justices, republican-appointed justices who apparently contradicting their own testimony voted to overturn a constitutional right that people believed, rightly believed was a 50-year right that wasn't going to go away and of course it was clarence thomas himself in his own concurring opinion that said oh, no-no, it's not enough just to overturn roe vs. wade, we should

look at all the things, all the case that's are based on some more similar constitutional rationale including the right to birth control, the right to gay marriage so it's interesting that this is all coming to a head, and it seems to all be circling around justice clarence thomas. >> i mean, cecile, it does beg the question about how we cover the supreme court. why aren't there cameras in the court? why isn't there a massive press corps the way there's a massive press corps that runs all over congress that works literally inside the white house i mean, some of it, right, is on all of us for not asking these questions and following the money sooner whatever the reason, it appears to be a new era in part because of the decisions and opinions like what you're talking about but whether roberts realizes it or not, whether thomas realizes it or not, this is a whole different degree of scrutiny on the court. >> absolutely. and should be. i mean, it is -- i think there's

enormous distrust now about the politicization of the court. obviously, we have three justices who were put on in the most partisan manner by donald trump. and frankly the republican party. their credibility is a question because it seems to all of us that they are making decisions based on their own politics. and in the case of justice thomas clearly with the influence of very wealthy republican right-wing donors they have to come clean and i think they have to become -- they have to be accountable to the american people who they are responsible for. >> you know, the thing, michael steele, that voters, even republicans can intuit about clarence thomas is that his partner isn't like justice roberts' partner who's a lawyer whose body of work is worth scrutiny it's all worth scrutiny and disclosure the taxpayers pay their salaries they value the public trust so much that they all give public speeches when they have free

time about how upset they are that they don't have as much as they used to so i know they care. but let me read from some of the new revelations over the weekend in the "washington post" about what some of these probing questions have done, the consequences so in addition to the recent revelations about clarence thomas's financial relationship with harlan crow, the texas billionaire, they cited a period in the 2000s in which clarence thomas failed to disclose his wife's employment as required by law until the omission was reported by the watchdog group common cause ginni thomas earned more than $686,000 from the conservative heritage foundation from 2003 to 2007 according to the non-profit's tax forms. clarence thomas checked a box labeled none for his wife's income during that period. he had done the same in '08 and '09 when she worked for conservative hillsdale college now, i -- i don't know any

couple that reports none when one member of the couple makes $686,000 that isn't sloppy. that is a lie. why is he lying? on his financial disclosures >> that will be an important question for appropriate authorities to inquire we can only guess why he checked that i think common sense kind of tells us why he checked it he didn't want to disclose it. he didn't want to identify the amount, didn't want to identify where it was coming from why? because the ramifications and the overtones of that are significant for a supreme court justice. it doesn't mean that ginni can't make $700,000 a year god bless her if she can but there's a disclosure form for her husband for a reason and that is to make sure that we at all times adhere to the proper decorum with respect to ethical representations, lack of

conflict of interest, et cetera, to make sure that those of us sitting outside those hallowed halls can look at this institution and the individuals within it and say, you know, those are the good guys and gals, they're doing it the right way. our politicians may be in the slime bucket but at least we've got this chamber that is there to be clarifying and clean things up. when the funk is in that house, when the rot begins to seep in, that distrust only amounts to cecilia's point and people begin to give you the kind of poll numbers we saw which is very troubling, nicolle, for the chief justice who does not want to see this institution go this way. the problem he has is that politically republicans don't give a damn. there are no republicans out here crying for an investigation or looking to get answers from justice thomas probably a lot of them have been at these events with him where

dollars were spent to get him and maybe them there we don't know. because we don't know if there's not the proper type of oversight and ethical requirements in place to make sure that these types of things don't happen and finally i guess when you look at it in terms of the responsibility of the press the one thing i would say is in the past this was always boring. everybody waited till june before the press got hyped up about the supreme court. now boring has been replaced by words like distrust, has been replaced by words like political, and we'll see now if that coverage increases, unlike it has in the past >> michael steele, if elena kagan's car broke down and george soros gave her a ride to the next gas station, there would be benghazi-style hearings in congress. it's not that republicans don't care about lack of ethics. you talk about conflict of

interest thomas is a walking conflict of interest he is in charge of whether or not he recuses from the trump cases. ginni thomas testified before the 1/6 committee that she and -- i think she calls him her best friend, that he knew what she was doing. this is so many train stops beyond, well, it's a conflict of interest and of course she can earn money from heritage. my question isn't about the $686,000 she earned. it's about the flagrant lie about it what is the remedy and are you at all optimistic there will be one for a justice that lies? >> i'm not optimistic that there will be one. where's it going to come from? you know where does it come from? the chamber should be policing itself, i guess. but absent that who's going to do that? it's going to fall to the political class, the politicians on capitol hill, the house and the senate, to weigh in. that's not going to germinate out of the house this house is not going to put that kind of ethical check on

republicans in that chamber. now, if this were a majority democratic, and i hate to say it, but we all know it's true, if it was ia majority democrat-appointed court, yeah, then you're absolutely right everybody would be hearing earfuls, getting earfuls of condemnation and what aboutism and screaming and hollering and all this other stuff but that's why i said, the republicans don't care about this to the point where it's going to lead them to take the kind of action to avoid it getting worse in the future. and i just don't know how you break that open right now. where's that ethical reform going to come from you know, how much of it will the chief justice be able to implement? how does that process work what is the rationale for the court not even being in the -- under the same umbrella as every other federal judge in the system what made them so special that

ethical requirements weren't a mandate for them these are the types of things that as a country we have to begin to explore and understand in order to move forward effectively. but the politics is going to get in the way here. >> yeah. i mean, brian fallon, i think even democrats on the judiciary committee are pretty clear-eyed about what michael steele is saying and maybe not yet publicly but -- senator blumenthal was pretty public that short of a senate impeachment process there's not a lot that democrats can do without republican participation. but the person who is standing at the gateway and the precipice of something he can't come back from is someone who knows better, and that's john roberts. and i wonder if you think that the ground has shifted underneath him in a way that he has detected >> i think that if we put all our eggs in the basket of hoping that john roberts is going to properly investigate one of his own then we'll be left

disappointed clarence thomas, he in one sense, nicolle, he is a creature of a broken institution. he's the longest-tenured justice that's currently on the court. and he has become a creature of that institution in the sense that he's seen scalia take these junkets funded by wealthy donors he knows how lax the ethics standards are. he knows there's no code of ethics he knows there's no governing authority that can properly investigate sitting supreme court justices so he's clearly willing to get away with as much as he'll be allowed to get away with and the republican political class, as michael steele was just saying, is definitely circling the wagons around clarence thomas because, nicolle, he has become a sort of mascot for the new conservative legal movement it's been said for a while now here in washington, d.c. that if you want to know where the mainstream of conservative legal thought will be in five years read clarence thomas's dissents. it used to be his dissents you no it's his concurrences and in some cases quite frighteningly his majority opinions but he has long been a thought leader during the days when anthony kennedy was still on the court and was trying to trim the

court's salils and have it proceed more incrementally it was clarence thomas who was throwing these bombs signaling that there could be a day in the future where they might overturn roe or they might allow an unfettered right to carry firearms in crowded u.s. population centers and that day has now arrived and when you look at donald trump's record of judicial nominations, there is not a single other supreme court justice that had more of his former clerks appointed to the federal bench by donald trump than clarence thomas that is how deeply enmeshed in our current federal judiciary clarence thomas and his progeny are. and so the leading group on the right, judicial crisis network, promoted a big biographical film about clarence thomas just two years ago. he has supplanted scalia as their most revered figure. and so they're definitely going to circle the wagons no matter what kind of disclosure comes out about him. so we can write letters to john roberts asking him to investigate this but he's not going to do it we can call for impeachment, we can call for resignation, it's not going to happen.

there's two people that will decide whether anything comes of this one is merrick garland because the failure to disclose this land deal from 2014 is a violation of a 1978 law that would give ground for merrick garland to launch an investigation here if he had that sense to do so. that's one option. secondly, it's dick durbin and yes, they can't move an impeachment resolution that would have to start in the house and with that being controlled by republicans there's no hope there. but dick durbin could investigate these things he has subpoena power. he could hold hearings about this matter. that post report over the weekend, nicolle, that shell company that clarence thomas is still reporting income from, there's a lot of questions there. is that just a clerical error where he refused -- or mistakenly forgot to update the name of the llc on his disclosure forms or is that a shell company that other donors like harlan crow are using to funnel contributions to clarence thomas to influence him? he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt on that we should investigate that and dick durbin has that power >> let's have a really blunt conversation about those two men. they do have power they have a moral compass. they're good public servants

brian fallon, let's start with merrick garland. if he won't impeach trump, who basically livestreams his crimes, what are the chances he opens an investigation into clarence thomas? >> yeah, you know, i would answer that question two ways, nicolle. one is there are appropriate grounds here for a federal investigation. the answer to that is clearly yes. then there's a second question of whether this particular attorney general merrick garland is willing to do that. and that's what i think you're getting at with the premise of your question. in one sense he's a former federal judge himself merrick garland on the d.c. circuit court of aappeals. he probably has a personal relationship with clarence thomas, probably has run in the same circles with him as two judges in the upper echelons of the federal judiciary. so would he probably be loath to do that? probably but look at how quickly he's acted to appoint a special prosecutor in what i think is a far less merited case of joe biden's classified documents so whereas here i think that the circumstances are screaming for some kind of accountability or

some kind of investigation it came to light today, nicolle, in the cnn story that his mother has continued living there rent-free all these years. so even if he wanted to initially defend the transaction by saying that harlan crow, the donor, paid fair market value for the house, it defies belief that his mother has continued living there all these years without paying a single rent payment. how is that not considered an undue benefit flowing to a public official? you have a clear case here, i think, of corruption and it deserves to be investigated from some quarter if not doj then the senate judiciary committee. either of them have the power to do it. either of them i think would have the public's backing in doing so >> yeah, michael steele, i'll give you the last word on public sentiment. the difference is -- permitless carry is like a 70-30 issue. abortion another 70-30 issue the difference is clarence thomas may be held in high regard by the conservative legal

community but that community is more distanced from mainstream american thought including mainstream republican thought than at any other point in modern political times what do you think the sort of opportunity is for durbin or senate democrats to hold some oversight hearings >> i think the opportunity is h high the politics are ripe from the democrats' perspective p because of -- as we've seen with dobbs and the outflow from that in kansas city special election, et cetera the public is paying attention, nicolle, and they are very much aware. and they know despite what people may think about our public, the public by and large know the various stair-step roles and responsibilities so they understand the supreme court is an end point, it's not a beginning point. so these cases that flow up to them germinate someplace, which

is why you're seeing more and more now conversations around what happens to change the court. right? down the road. the steps you've got to be taking at the federal level, state level, et cetera the politics are moving. the question for senator durbin and the democrats in the senate is how do they craft that narrative. especially if merrick garland takes the pass, which i think at this point he probably will. i think the other side of that on where garland moved before, the politics were very different than they are here on the supreme court. so i think durbin will look at this at least in the short term to see what more flows out of it before he pulls the trigger. >> well, investigative journalists are not waiting. there's a bombshell a day. it's really -- it's really stunning and we owe them a great debt of gratitude for a lot of what we know about the thomases. brian fallon and michael steele, thank you for being part of this

conversation cecile richards sticks around. when we come back, it may seem counterinyou tootive at this point. but the texas judge's ruling banning medical abortion may not be the slam dunk to survive that some on the right think it is. even if the conservative supermajority of the u.s. supreme court is as anti-abortion as we believe them to be. we'll explain all that nuance next plus, country music superstar brad paisley is just back from a secret trip to ukraine he met with president zelenskyy. brad will be our guest later in the hour along with another dear friend of our show, former zelenskyy adviser igor novikov you don't want to miss that. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. dot n'go anywhere.

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a sense of outrage that a judge with no medical train ing would have the audacity to override a decision of the fda >> i thought we were making progress for a long time, and now i just see horrible, horrible backsliding and i could not stay home and -- i couldn't live with myself if i stayed home when this is going on >> when it comes to women's rights, it is imperative that we stand up and take them -- it doesn't matter if you're left leaning or conservative leaning. it just matters that you are a woman because these are human rights that are being stripped away from us >> indeed, those were protesters outside the united states supreme court this weekend outraged and focused over the attempts to further roll back the right of women to make our

own decisions about our bodies and our health the supreme court could rule on the legality of the most common form of abortion and miscarriage management medication as early as wednesday of this week. and while the expectations of the court that stripped away as cecile said earlier in the show a constitutional right, the right that we've had for 50 years to an abortion, might be that they will continue to run roughshod over the rights of women and girls in our country, a legal analysis by the "new york times" suggests that we should at least pay close attention this week. and reports that even the increasingly far right-wing majority might shy away from such an extreme ruling for these reasons. "at first blush the decision's chances of surviving review by a supreme court dominated by conservative justices seems quite promising. but legal scholars said that the poor quality breathtaking sweep and unknown collateral consequences of the texas

decision might cause at least some of the supreme court's conservative justices to wait for a case that would allow them to make -- or take more measured steps. quote, if you're a justice looking for a case in which to undermine the administrative state, this is not a particularly elegant one, said mary zigler, a law professor and historian at uc davis. "everything about this case makes it an imperfect vehicle except for the fact that it's about abortion and the administrative state this is boundary testing." joining our conversation, president and ceo of the national women's law center fatima goss graves cecile is still with us. fatima, wednesday is such an important day. so much on the line. i'm not sure if i welcome being lulled into feeling open that the supreme court might not do the worst thing on the menu, but this reporting suggested that we should at least wait and see what are you expecting what are you bracing for this week >> i definitely think there's se

other side of this decision. in part because this case had no business being there in the first place. the people who brought this case, it's outrageous that they have standing and that it wasn't dismissed out of hand. and the effect of this case would make the fda an inability to trust in the decisions that it makes it would totally blow that up. so the court has a lot to consider, whether or not it is going to uphold either the kacsmaryk or fifth circuit reasoning which really puts judicial reasoning in place of scientific reasoning >> cecile, this is a case about a judge for non-medical purposes taking away a medicine that has been approved for 23 years by the fda.

it seems like a catastrophic legal thing for the supreme court to get behind. but then they did dobbs. so iyou think? >> well, fatima is exactly right. this case should have never been heard. there is no medical evidence that there is any reason for this drug to not be available. as you said, it's been available for decades. it's been -- has an incredible safety record. but now the question is yes, can one judge, one federal judge appointed by donald trump somehow override the entire fda process? and it is -- that's why i too am hopeful that the supreme court will actually balk at this it is -- it's interesting, nicolle, as you know, this case has not only united women across the country. it's also brought the medical community and the pharmaceutical industry in the same place

saying we cannot actually take away the right of the fda to license medicine in this country. so just like the dobbs decision was overturning a 50-year constitutional right, this would be a radical rewriting of what the role of the federal judiciary is so we'll find out, i think probably on wednesday, but i too like fatima am hopeful that reason might prevail >> you know, cecile, i try to always press on the ground reality for women in america without this -- without mifepristone as part of the two-drug regimen for miscarriage or abortion isn't women's health care less than with it >> oh, absolutely. none of these decisions are being made and none of the cases are being brought on behalf of women or women's health. as fatima and i know, that's never been the case. the goal of the republican party has been to end all access to safe and legal abortion.

and it's interesting because of course part of the supposed rationale in the dobbs decision was that this should now be a 50-state decision, each state would make their own rules but this kind of case is exactly the -- is basically contradicting that immediately, which is this case, if judge kacsmaryk is successful, this case would say no person in the country could access mifepristone even if you live in a state that has completely legalized abortion so it is this incremental fight by the republican party frankly to just undermine access all across the country i've been spending time in louisiana, a state where there is no access to safe and legal abortion anymore if mifepristone is taken off the market, it would be devastating for the health and well-being of women everywhere >> fatima, we have these conversations with people like both of you, again, to keep them

rooted in the reality. but the reality is it is already a worse place to be a woman. they have already succeeded. and my question, fatima, is do you find that men and women everywhere you go are aware of the fact that they are still pushing, that they want more, that they're not happy overturning roe? >> i think this case has put a fine point on that this is not a state by state idea this is actually a back door effort to do a nationwide abortion ban there may have been people who were in a state like new york or california that's been expanding access to abortion care that may have been thinking, well, you know, i feel bad about what's happening in louisiana but that's not me and i hope this moment helps everyone realize that their endgame is to ban access to abortion and actually control our lives and futures everywhere and in every part of this

country, no matter where you sit. >> it is an unbelievable and inconvenient thing to wrap your brain round, but it is the truth. fatima goss graves and cecile richards, thank you so much for being part of our coverage when we come back, a critical point for the people in ukraine. two of our very good friends, country music superstar brad paisley and former adviser to president zelenskyy igor novikov will be our guests for conversation following brad's visit to ukraine last week don't go awhnyere. they'll both be here when you come back.

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so it's been about two months since here on "deadline" we played for you a brand new song from our friend brad paisley. the song was called "same here." it was released on the one-year anniversary of the russian invasion of ukraine. it features a surprise performance and appearance from president zelenskyy of ukraine well, brad was on this show, he dropped in that he was going to ukraine to meet zelenskyy in person well, it happened. just last week that plan became a reality. brad joined a bipartisan group of u.s. senators on a trip to kyiv as he continues his work as an ambassador for united 24. that's i afund-raising campaign that helps to build housing for displaced ukrainians whose homes have been destroyed in the war during the visit brad also got to perform "same here" in kyiv's st. michael's square here's some of that performance.

♪ however you talk ♪ ♪ whatever you think ♪ ♪ from the songs that you sing to the drink that you drink ♪ ♪ you miss your mama and worry about your babies ♪ ♪ and love each other like crazy ♪ ♪ you want someone to share you hopes and fears ♪ ♪ same here ♪ >> if you can listen to that and not cry -- joining us now grammy award-winning singer, songwriter, superstar. also joining us our dear friend igor novikov, former adviser to president zelenskyy. brad, tell us about the trip >> well, first of all, i know you're jealous i got to hug igor before you >> totally jealous >> and it was an amazing moment

when -- it's an overnight train ride in. and we got to the -- got to the place we were meeting in the morning and there's igor waiting for me this guy that as you know has been such a conduit between us and kyiv and -- you know, for me it was such a shock to see it tore for my own eyes because it's always different than you think it will be i flew it would be different i knew it would be different than just the things i've seen on television and in coverage. and what i was absolutely floored by was the way that they are living life to the fullest between air raid sirens. and i saw kids getting off of school buses in raincoats and with book bags i saw people walking in the park i saw people in restaurants. meanwhile, we're driving around in armored cars. and they are defiant

and they're living life to their fullest. and meanwhile, those who are fighting are fighting. those who are living are busy keeping the lifestyle going. >> brad, did it inspire a creative process did it inspire more activism is there a real understand ing that this is the time to pay more attention, not less i mean, tell me what it -- because you're not a sort of see it and leave guy what did it -- how did it change you? >> it definitely -- it is the type of thing where i'm not exactly sure how it's changed me and i'm still processing i got back emotionally exhausted in a way i have never been and again, some of the united 24 folks showed me around when we first got there, and we walked feverishly to the places they thought i needed to see. and there was a -- there was a place where there's an intersection there in kyiv that

was hit with a missile while people were in their cars. and within four days, i think that's right -- right, igor? they had it fixed. and they were driving on it again. and that's their whole philosophy and so you leave there thinking with these obstacles and this kind of determination to be a democracy and to be free and to expel the invaders i just left there thinking there's got to be more we can all do but at the same time i just left there feeling like it's a great feeling to know that this is -- we are on the right side in this country. it's truly inspiring to see them wanting to be free and as much like us as they can be >> well, like the best of us, igor i mean, i think this thing that brad describes is something that you've tried to bring to life for our viewers. and i think we've talked on and off tv about, you know, if it's the last day of your life how do you live, what do you drink, what do you eat, how do you talk -- you know, and it's incredibly intense it is probably along the spectrum of ptsd surely.

but it sounds like brad saw some of what you've described tell me what life is like in kyiv right now >> well, nicolle, i have a story for you. as you can see i'm slightly shaken just because i got off a phone call i was shown an interview by a wagner mercenary, russian wagner mercenary that aired today the guy confessed to executing 20 ukrainian children in bakhmut including a 5-year-old girl. and he describes it in full detail and like look, it got me thinking, like here is the ukrainian mentality for you. first of all, we see the clear picture. in a world like that there are only three types of people that can exist. human beings, monsters and cowards. and cowards are just, you know, monsters in waiting. so you know, who is who is pretty clear to us but also at the same time it doesn't lead us to hatred. it leads us to more activity,

more can be done to make the world a better place for example, i just -- as soon as i finished watching that interview, i came up with three ideas to pitch to brad one to pitch to you. an op-ed that i started writing with my friends at air media about social responsibility, everyone has a voice, so musicians, actors. and like look, i am going to show what life is like to n. ukraine to as many people with audiences and voices as i can. and like that's our mentality. sooner or later this will be over but we need to make sure it doesn't happen again because this is beyond evil. >> and i mean, i think if brad and i could throw a parade for you every day we would but i will just go back in time and remind everybody how this all came to be you and i were texting and talking a lot at the beginning of the war, igor you said where's the we are the world. i called brad the next morning on a saturday and i say brad, can we do "we are the world" he puts me in touch with david wild and off to the races we go, trying to do something to help

so when brad says you are the conduit, you are the conduit, igor and i think to brad's point about how it changes you when you see it, how do we work on that front how do we make sure more people see not just the horrors like what you're describing but the resilience, like the intersection brad's describing both sides all sides. >> well, that's the thing that's most beautiful about kyiv. and i'm pretty sure brad can tell you all about it because, you know, he's not biased as much as i am but at the same time like look, there's so much beauty in this city and resilience. like you know, seeing it is one thing. and we're trying to get as many youtubers in, as many celebrities in as possible but what's important here is to relay that message to the world. and there's nobody better positioned to do that than somebody who's as be talented as brad, for example. so the song is incredible. i'm so looking forward to the music video. i'm not sure if brad spoiled the fact that a bit of it was filmed

in kyiv as well. but maybe i just did it. i'm sorry about that >> that's all right. >> that's okay >> go ahead. i want to also put you on the spot and ask you about meeting zelenskyy. i have to sneak in a quick break, though, before i do that. you guys, please stick around. you need to deliver new apps fast using the services you want in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you innovate and grow. ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, ♪ ♪ but i manage it well. ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪

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>> all of it i can't believe i'm standing next to him before i get to stand next to you. >> well, same here any way, nicolle, we'll see you soon bye. bye, bye >> i watched it like ten times i didn't know they were going play it. but i'm so glad they did so that both of you are changing the world makes me so happy. but i do want some more gossip, brad i want to hear about your first conversation president zelenskyy is on your record, is on your incredible new album. what was it like meeting him for first time in person >> it was -- you know, it was surreal when you think back to what led to all this, which is for me watching this entire conflict begin came from a call -- i got a text from mark kelly, senator mark kelly, who i went there with, who said something like buckle up russia is invading ukraine and i -- fast forward to a trip

with mark and senator manchin and senator murkowski are all wonderful people and we had so many experiences we will never forget but to fast forward to this moment, where i got to meet him, i -- he's exactly what you think. in that sense, it really was kind of surreal to be able to walk in and already have a history with him without ever having been in the same room and one of the first thing i said is i hope you like the song >> he likes the song, right? >> yes, he does. but it was really interesting to talk about certain things. we got to have some conversations. and i was in there a while so to be able to discuss the smaller things, the family things, the things that all human beings have in common, kind of like the song says, it really was -- it really was something i'll never forget. and one of those moments where i

feel like i don't know how i ended up there >> brad, you both have young kids and so much of what president zelenskyy's speeches call on us to do is to act like our kids are watching, right? not to kick them out of the room and so much of what igor is talking about, the inhumanity, the monstrosity of the russians. how much of president zelenskyy's skill at sort of bringing this all to attention when you sing "amazing grace," it's about this war starts and you look at your kids. and it's about the world we want to leave for them that is the universal thing that the three of us talk about off tv. how much is zelenskyy also sort of reaching back to the kids in his own country and reaching out to the adults around the world to try to hold all of us together for the cause of democracy. >> i think he knows exactly that -- especially coming from the entertainment world as an

actor and a comedian, a good friend of mine says all the time do not underestimate the resolve and the grit of a comedian, of a person who is able to look at society and find both the humor and the irony. i feel like that tool for him has allowed him to find the way to get the emotion that we need. and it's now there is no comedy in what he is doing at all but he has found a way to appeal to our hearts. and i think that's probably why the song happened. i think he understands that things like art can reach the places that cold hard facts and speeches and data don't. >> yeah, i mean, it's the gut piece, right elections aren't determined by anybody's heads. it doesn't make them go stand 11 hours to vote. it's what you feel in your gut i wonder, igor, i think your

frenetic effort to pull helpers like brad into the conversation comes from this understanding that it is our guts and our commitment to you and your kids that keeps us in the fight what is your thought at this point in the war about that? >> well, nicole, look, first of all, masha, my 3-year-old is a constant daily reminder we need to keep going and win this, regardless of behalf happens we need to build a wall, but this wall should not be between country. this wall should is not be between city, state, anything that wall should be the wall of love between us and the evil that happens to be in this world. and it's the human connection. it's kind of getting to know people because we're all the same and i'm stealing from brad here, but that's really important. the more good people we connect all across the world, the more protected we are from evil

>> you guys make me cry. i'm going to go to break because you both made me cry are you going to go back, brad >> oh, yeah. i don't think that was my last trip i fell in love with that city. i can't wait also to see it once the veil has lifted a bit on this, you know it's going to be -- i think st. michaels square, when you stand there, it's like they're already getting it ready for this memorial to the war they won that's how i -- that's my hope >> and you will perform there when they unveil it. i know it. and we'll all be there it's so nice to talk to you. i wish i could say brad and igor join us now every day. let's do this more often, friends. brad paisley, igor thank you for spending time with us. a quick break for us we'll be right back. ♪ however you talk, whatever yo think, from the songs that you sing to the drink that you

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. beet "the beat with ari melber" is right now. >> welcome to "the beat. i'm ari melber

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