helicoptered to a hospital a local gym owner says that was payton washington, a young cheerleader well known in the community. >> she's won every title in all-star cheer leading, a role model for kids throughout the country. >> reporter: friends posting on social media calling for support and prayers for the high schooler it's one of several shootings to gain national attention recently in rural upstate new york 20-year-old kaylin gillis shot and killed saturday when the suv she was in accidentally pulled in to the wrong driveway investigators say kevin monahan walked out of his home and fired two shots at the vehicle he has pleaded not guilty to secondeg-dree murder. >> that's going to do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. if you want laundry to smell fresh for weeks, make sure you have downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters.

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february 2021 smartmattic alleges fox news knowingly made over 100 false statements and implications about the company amplifying false information from former president donald trump and his allies, smart mattic played a role in his election loss. exposed misconduct and damage caused by fox news information campaign smart mattic will expose the rest, a tease in the tv business the very fact that fox is shelling out more than three quarters of a billion dollars in cold hard cash for its coverage of team trump's conspiracy theories as dominion attorney da vitae

brooke put it money can be a form of accountability a listen to that from yesterday. >> for the past two and a half years we've been able to expose everything that fox knew when it broadcast these horrific lies about my company, the country now knows that, the world knows that and with the summary judgment frulg this great court we now have a decides those lies were just that the other thing we needed was justice. a company likes fox apologizes, it apologizes with money and $787 millionsss we figure spoke volumes. >> that was not yesterday. that was this morning and the attorney we just saw there is joining us now she's a lawyer for dominion voting systems and partner at the law firm of susman godfrey and representing dominion in its lawsuits against jewel giuliani yan na and powell and the pillow guy. congratulations. i'm curious about just talk to

us about when this case started, go back and think about the history here a little bit, as an attorney going into this matter, you guys would have thought from the beginning about litigation strategy, and i'm curious as you started out duown the path what you thought you were trying to achieve through the outset >> it's a great question and i will admit over the last couple hours i have been thinking a lot about how this all got started, and the two things that we were really trying to achieve from day one were accountability and justice for our client, and what i mean by that is, with accountability, we needed to set the record straight. we needed the world to know that the lies that were told about dominion in the wake of the 2020 presidential election were false and we needed them to see that for themselves that was our summary judgment brief and that was the decision from this court in delaware and

we think we achieved those goals in spades. the other thing we needed was a fair result for our client and that was yesterday $787 million, the largest verdict i know, the largest settlement i know of in any defamation case in the history of this country, and again, that number mattered to dominion and we think it mattered to fox. >> so one of the things that people i think who are -- i'm not a lawyer, but i've covered them enough to know that, you know, sort of the point of the civil litigation system in america is not to go to trial. it's kind of -- the system is designed to get to settlement, that trials are inherently unpredictable, never know on both sides what's going to happen in front of a jury and try to find nam in the end for a lot of these kind of lawsuits from the very beginning of the discovery putting the case together, you're thinking about what -- about trying get to settlement, what a fair number would be. is that how you guys thought about this you equated money with justice,

with accountability. from the very beginning, you thought we have a number in mind, this is -- we're going to end up in a settlement negotiation for sure and that's where we think this will end up and a series of things we might want to get done along the way >> not at all, actually. susman godfrey is a trial firm when dominion hired susman godfrey to help them, what they were shalignaling to fox they w ready to see the inside of the courtroom and we were ready to see the inside of the courtroom. this lovely background you see behind me is the glorious war room where i still am in wilming wilmington, delaware, not but 24 hours ago in the room next to me my partner was practicing his opening for a team our colleagues my colleague justin nelson was practicing his cross of rupert murdoch. we were ready to go. that said, there are advantages

to settling and one here was not just the money, which is what we were hoping to get from a jury, but it was the peace for the people at dominion there's been a lot of talk and focus on all of folks from fox's end who were going to be required to come to court and be questioned but also a dozen or so folks from dominion who were going to have to leave their homes, leave their comfort, come to wilmington, delaware and relive the very, very real trauma that they experienced in the 2020 presidential election and, frankly to this day, and deciding to not put them through that, deciding to let them stay at home with their families, was a huge factor for my client and something that weighed heavily on him in making tdecision. >> in doing that colorful talk there, someone at home is writing a screenplay for the hbo mini series there, they will be calling you to get more on that

color tiktok and i might come back before this interview is over there's been a suggestion over the course of the last 24 hours that that that it was important to the company that all of the facts that we learned in the course of you doing discovery and then a lot of that -- a lot of that material, not all of it, the material coming out in the course of the various filings starting in december, january, we learned a lot about what was going on at fox news and these pivotal days after the election. what -- is it the case that you -- that -- that -- that you had settlement offers, that you decided to wait and to really seriously engage in the settlement negotiations until after that public disclosure or did the settlement negotiations really only begin on the brink of trial >> what i will say about that is this, i think it's notable that this settlement happened after that summary judgment briefing i mentioned, after that summary

judgment decision i mentioned. it was very important for not just dominion, but for staple street capital, who has been with dominion every single step of this way, to make sure that the record was set straight, that the world saw what we saw, that the world knew what we knew, via the documents and the briefings that we put together, and it was hugely, hugely important to us to get that ruling from the court that it is crystal clear that dominion had nothing to do with any bad activity in the 2020 presidential election. >> i can see your eyes light up still at the prospect of having -- of -- kind of the -- the lost opportunity in some way what it would have been like to litigate this case and there were people looking forward to watching it on tv. i kept thinking this is kind of a new trial of the century, combination of the o.j. trial and scopes trial, everybody would be watching this all at once and i guess, you know, for a lot of people there was a

sense of letdown yesterday, even those people who understand it's a large settlement, even people who understand the value of having gotten out a lot of the information we learned about wait that fox news behaved in the aftermath of the election. people wanted something else and that -- that thing for a lot of people, as you probably have heard in terms of the coverage in the last 24 hours, was they wanted an apology, the fox news anchors to have to go on air and admit they lied, to take responsibility to a greater degree than they did in the statement they put out yesterday which was, i think we all admit, pretty innocuous and lawyered. was that ever something you thought was important and pursue during settlement negotiations >> look, there are a lot of executives, hosts, producers, et cetera at fox, and if any of them want to do the right thing an come out and apologize, we welcome it that said, for better or for worse, the legal system, the laws of defamation, they're not set up to get you an apology

we could have gone it trial, knocked it out of the park and we would not have gotten an apology from fox. >> yeah. >> we would have gotten a damaging [ inaudible ] and at the end of the day that is what our legal system is set up to provide for. it's set up to provide for accountability and for justice, and when we had ticked those two boxes we felt like we had done what we had come here to do. >> appreciate the answer and the question still remains, was that the -- admittedly, the legal system was never going to compel fox news, but you might have tried to compel them to apologize in some way as part of a settlement negotiation, i ask again, was that something that you considered or pursued in the course of those negotiations >> no. i really have to turn to my client, but i'm not really sure what the value of a forced apology would be to them at this point. if fox ever wants to genuinely apologize to dominion voting systems for what they did to them, i know the ceo of dominion, and i'm sure he would listen

but i'm not sure that a forced apology is really going to be that meaningful to him at this point in time. >> so one of the things that civil litigation often is designed to do is be a deterrent towards future bad act the trying to get damages, actual damages, might pursue punitive damages as you were and part of the goal there is to punish and punish as a deterrent against future behavior of the same kind one of the questions that's been going around in the political world since the settlement was announced almost 24 hours ago has been whether this will change anything at fox news? i know this isn't strictly a legal question, but i wonder what you think of that andrew weissmann was on the show yesterday raising the prospect that what this would teach fox was not that it would -- it would have to pay large penalties for propagating big lie, but that it should -- it could get away with big lies except if those were directed at other corporations, at deep pocketed defendants or -- deep

pocketed potential plaintiffs, so ying about big companies in e clear. i wonder what you think about the degree to which the settlement and the cost that their having to pay will, maybe or not, change their behavior in the future on this front >> sure. i certainly hope it will as you said, not just as a lawyer for dominion, but i'm also just an american. and i, too, lived through the aftermath of the 2020 presidential election, and it took me to my core i certainly hope that we have all learned something and i think and i hope what fox has learned and again i go back to the incredible summary judgment opinion that this court has issued in this case, is that a lot of the ideas and the theories and the defenses that fox had, for why it could get away with doing what it did, are just not eely sound. there is no such thing as a newsworthiness defense to defamation law there is no such thing as a

neutral report to defamation law in the state of new york where fox is those things are not going to cut it and fox knows that from this court, and i -- if i were them, i would be very careful of making decisions based on those defenses in the future so as i said before, as you described the -- the last-minute, last-hour preparation in the war room where what was once the war room and where you signed i guess like the peace treaty, going into -- ahead what would have been the start of the trial yesterday, there's tantalizing kind of images that play out before your eyes of what might have been. you guys released a monster exhibit list, 7,000 pages, and i'm curious without -- without going into, obviously, the individual piece of evidence that you were going to enter into court into the record in the case if it had gone forward i'm curious if you can talk a little bit about what we might

have learned more about fox news' behavior had this trial proceeded? if there's anything substantively additional to all the bad acts that we saw that we've learned about already, what else would we have learned in the course of the trial had it gone forward? >> well, the public would have gotten to hear from themselves more from the hosts and producers and executives at issue. our witness list was also public and those are the people that we were planning on bringing to trial, either live or by deposition testimony, and so you would have heard from them and you would have heard more about what their documents, their contemporaneous documents at the time had to say. >> what was that murdoch -- murdoch pointed out to your colleagues prepping for doing the murdoch interrogation, what would that have looked like. >> how many days would it have stretched out? the form how soon would we have seen him had there been a trial >> those are a lot of questions

that were still some of them in flux even as we were on the courtroom steps there. but my colleague justin nelson, the same person who took murdoch's deposition, that has already been discussed at a pretty great length in in the press, was gearing up to once again question mr. murdoch on the stand in the first week of the trial. >> in the first week it would have been -- murdoch was going to be in person a face-to-face encounter? >> yes the court -- i actually don't want to speak out of turn. i think that eventually fox acknowledged that as an officer of the company, mr. murdoch would have to appear in person in delaware. >> i was looking forward to that being a multiday extravaganza one of the high points of my year and you denied it to us yesterday doing the settlement i will never possibly forgive you. one thing on the list that stood out, were a series of e-mails between rupert murdoch and jared

kushner, curious if you could tell us what those were about? >> now you're being unfair and testing my knowledge of the,000 page exhibit list on live tv and that one is below the belt. >> all right it's not below the belt. i'm just fishing you promised us this trial and took it away i'm trying to give griss for the mill going forward how many fox hosts were you going to call? >> they're on that exhibit list. quite a handful that included tucker carlson, maria bartiromo, sean hannity, will cain and maybe a couple more. >> the further we go into this conversation the more painful it gets because the sense of denial is all the more acute and just the spectacle we would have been able to see. i say again, i think it's without doubt, that this case has done more to make substantive concrete and vivid for people the extent to which

fox news does not operate as a traditional news organization but as a propaganda organization, especially at a moment of great precariousness and peril for the united states in the wake of the 2020 election on behalf of -- a welcomed public that wants to know more about the news media, thank you and congratulations on what i'm sure your client thinks was a very big win appreciate you coming on today >> thank you let's bring in now still live from wilmington, delaware, reporter jeremy peters, inside the courtroom yesterday. jeremy, you've had 24 hours having spent a lot of your life since this case started to unfold, you spent many, many hours getting ready for this trial, you now had 24 hours to process what happened. just give me your highest level overview on what you've been thinking over the last 24 hours and what you thought listening to davida brook and anything she

said that stood outed being of a particular moment or importance? >> i think the question of accountability is a really good and powerful one because that's what this case for dominion was really all about, and it's what this case was about for many of the people who were so invested in it. we have dwroets see many people who were responsible for spreading lies and misinformation about the 2020 election held legally accountable for that davida is right when she says money is a form of accountability, and certainly this is 787 million ways that fox is being held to account, and i think there's another point here that's been a little overlooked about the significance of this case, even though it's not going to trial and we won't get to see tucker carlson and rupert murdoch on

the stand. what we have been able to see is for months and months, disclosures from inside fox news that dominion was able to bring to light because they filed a lawsuit. we now know how disingenuous fox hosts like tucker carlson can be with their audience, how they privately denigrate the president that they know their audience doesn't want criticized what do they do? they say things and snipe about him privately but say something differently on the air that kind of -- that curtain has been peeled back and we wouldn't have that without dominion's lawsuit, even though we're not going to have a trial. >> jeremy, the question i asked davida that i think is in some ways deterrence and does this, the youkoutcome that was achiev, whether it will have a meaningful effect on the way that fox news does business

going forward and i think there's one school of thought that says this is a large settlement and a giant check, of course this is the only thing that corporations react to is to the bottom line. this will be a deterrent money is accountability. another that says for fox news, this is not a drop in the bucket, but it's survivable and that the lesson they will learn is, hey, you can lie about a lot of things don't lie about a potential plaintiff that has deep pockets to take you to court. which is more likely to play out being a student of the company as you are >> so look, i think that this is not fundamentally going to change the way fox does business it's realized here that it can write a check, a big check at that, and that is how it continues to tell its audience what it wants to hear. remember, this is about ratings and the profits the high ratings

generate fox is not going to do anything to get cross wise with its audience one one of the things we know between rupert murdoch and his chief executive they panicked when they saw the ratings declined and worried about the share price and the cost to the company ultimately well, it was a pretty high cost of -- in terms of what the dominion case brought about, but, i just don't see fox ever deciding that its business interests are in moving toward becoming more moderate and, you know, the kind of network that maybe paul ryan would like to see as a member of fox's corporate board, which we know he was pushing rupert murdoch to -- in that direction to try to back away from trump. fox is only going to back away from trump when their audience tells them that trump is not

their choice for the republican nomination and no longer the leader of the republican party and that's not the situation we're looking at right now. >> thank you for spending some time with us and you are now free, all do respect to president biden, free to leave delaware. when we come back after the historic three quarters of a billion dollar, with a "b," settlement, there are still victims of election disinformation out there and we will talk with constitutional law scholar laurence tribe ability that and where we go from here. plus we're hearing from the fulton county district attorney in the form of a court filing today. first new detail since she warned the charging decisions are imminent in the ex-president's effort to overturn the 2020 election what we know, and it says about this monumental case and an ominous decision from the supreme court. the high court buying themselves more time around a case that will have huge consequences for women's reproductive health and freedom. what could be going on behind

the scenes we'll discuss the stakes for millions of people in this country. all of those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after this please, i beg of you, do not go anywhere

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. reminder today despite the mountain of evidence showing that big lie was just that a big, fat, dangerous lie, and despite the fact that a media giant, namely fox news corporation, is now paying $787.5 million for giving platforms to that lie, disinformation about our elections is still running rampant.

"the new york times" reporting heider garcia announced he would resign joining others across the nation who would quit after facing threats mr. garcia oversees elections in 2020 where donald trump became only the second presidential election candidate to lose in 50 years. right wing threats fueled threats against mr. garcia and the county received a claim from state auditors for its 2020 voting joining us constitutional scholar laurence tribe, my friend, want you to talk about what the net-net is on the dominion case and the settlement, whether you think it will deter fox news, whether you think it was the right -- whether the settlement achieved as much as dominion, and its attorneys claimed it has or whether you're disappointed in either the settlement itself or not getting to see this case go to trial >> it would have been fun to watch the trial, but i think it

was a great victory for dominion and ultimately for the truth the remarkable volume of evidence that emerged showing that fox news lied and knew it was lying, would have been amplified a little at the trial, but we got most of it in the remarkable run up to the trial the verdict of $767 million, that was an amazing verdict because the actual damages that dominion was able to quantify economically was closer to $112 million. so the ratio of 6 to 1 is probably as much as any court would have permitted besides, you have to discount the $1.7 billion that they were seeking or $1.67 billion by the probability and it's not more probable than not, but it was a

significant risk that an appellate court would have overturned a verdict at the end of the trial because the rulings in favor of dominion were really very dramatic. some of those rulings, which i think were correct, were nonetheless close to the line. what dominion did was essentially cash in when it might have ended up walking away with nothing it seems to me also, as davida pointed out, a forced apology, which isn't something that civil justice system is designed to deliver anyway, wouldn't have helped anything. i mean, for hannity or one of these guys to go on the air and wink and nod and say, yeah, we weren't telling the truth, who would have believed they actually meant it? their audience wouldn't have believed it. their audience didn't even learn today the size of the settlement amount so it seems to me that this was

a very important victory for truth and for dominion and for all of the people in dominion who have difficulties of a trial which would have been a burden for them. >> before i move on to the questions of what comes next because of all these other cases that are going forward, including the smartmatic case, i do want to ask and come back to the question about deterrence and whether or not there's two schools of thought here, one is that fox newsis not going to change its thoughts and become cnn, or msnbc, god knows, but is it a large enough settlement it could have an appreciable impact on their coverage or is the lesson as some legal minds, including our friend andrew weissmann was on yesterday, the lesson for fox news, big lies are fine, we just can't tell big lies about deep pocket corporations who might turn into dangerous plaintiffs >> i'm inclined to agree with

andrew i think they're going to keep telling lies i think they're going to avoid lying about particular plaintiffs who can sue them. that doesn't mean that big lies will remain undeterred permanently, but what this does is underscore the importance of what fani willis in fulton county, georgia, and jack smith, the special counsel, are able to do in holding trump and trump's allies accountable for the attempted coup that was based on the big lie and for the insurrection that big lie fomented in a way, what people haven't yet focused on is that it is the criminal justice system that vindicates the great public interest, the interest in democracy. the civil justice system can make a victim whole, but it can't make the country whole no amount of lawyering -- and the lawyering, stephen

shackelford and davida and justin, was brilliant no amount of good lawyering, however good, would have vindicated the full national interest. that's going to depend very much on the d.a. of fulton county and on the special counsel and that's the way the system is designed and that's the way it ought to work. i'm optimistic that when the final period of history is written the big lie will have been exposed, the big liar will have been held accountable and those who were injured by the liars at fox, will have been made whole you can't ask for much more out of the system, and if you want entertainment, then you go to the movies. >> i was going to say, from your lips to earl warren's ears if he's listening here's what -- i want to play one piece of sound here because it is the case that fox news will continue on regardless of what happens to donald trump, even with all the consequences you laid out there in the

georgia case and in the jack smith inquiries in washington, d.c., and special counsel. there are all these other lawsuits there's the smartmatic lawsuit, there are the potentially the shareholder lawsuits against fox news, this is going to go on for a while and i want to remind people, you got used to hearing about dominion voting systems and you will hear about smartmatic with its $2.6 billion lawsuit against fox news, that's the next big defamation case let's place this one piece of sound to remind you, here's sydney powell back in november of 2020 talking not just about dominion but this other voting systems company called smartmatic that's suing fox news let's listen to that. >> we now have reams and reams of actual documents from smartmatic and dominion, including evidence that they planned and executed all of this. >> the president's lawyers alleging a company called dominion which they say started in venezuela with cuban money and the assistance of smartmatic

software, a backdoor is capable of flipping votes. >> they were being notified by smartmatic in frankfurther that biden was way behind and they better come up with more ballots and we can prove everything i said. >> so professor, it's been easily forgotten that in that period, that really dominion and smartmatic were as you heard, they were kind of like the twins out of the mouths of the conspiracy theorists on fox news, sydney powell and rudy giuliani and others. you only heard the name of dominion in smartmatic and vice versa, the two great say tans here that the big lie propagators cited and i wonder the large question here, which is, having had this kind of a settlement in the dominion case, how does that settlement, how does the specter of that settlement hover over the smartmatic case or does it

or does it not to the extent how does it? over all of these legal cases, does there -- is there an appreciable effect from the settlement that will now kind of change the course of history on all of these -- in all these other legal forums and filings >> sure there's an effect. it's not a straight line legal effect it's more like the guillotine, the shadow, like has its effect when it falls and hangs, but it's overhanging in the lawsuits that will be brought by smartmatic and in the remaining suits by dominion. now everybody knows that dominion is willing to pay north of 650, maybe $750 million, to get rid of one of these lawsuits and there are individuals that are going to be sued and other companies being sued and there are other plaintiffs suing we have a different baseline

we're moving out of a world where people thought that the difficulty of proving reckless or deliberate falsehood and meeting the high standard of a "new york times" sullivan would make these lawsuits impossible to win, but we have a summary judgment ruling by a very serious court, a ruling rejecting a number of defenses as illegitimate under the relevant governing law, and we have a clear sense of what kind of evidence could be introduced. if i were davida and justin and if i were my former student stephen shackelford i wouldn't throw away the notes with the opening argument just yet. the cases not over there's plenty more. >> yeah. sounds from davida, like they're going to hold on to the notes and they're ready to go. i will point out what we said before, attorney for smartmatic yesterday saying, quote, dominion's litigation exposed some of the misconduct and damage caused by fox's

misinformation campaign and smartmatic will expose the rest. i say from their lips to god's ears lawrence, thank you for taking the time today switch gears and we have a big development in the fulton county georgia case that larry tribe was talking about, the ultimate accountability for the big lie, one of the places, resides or may reside. it will reside should reside. the district attorney down there looking to remove a lawyer from representing the ten fake trump lectors in 2020. why she's doing that and what it tells us about where this case may be going coming up. you need to deliver new apps fast using the services you want in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control,

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flonase headache and allergy relief. psst! psst! all good! . with all the focus on the fox news dominion case over the last few days you may have put to the side, forgotten, taken your eye off the ball when it comes to a case unfolding in georgia, related to donald trump and election fraud we have not. we're right back on it today with the news today coming out of fulton county where that investigation into trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 election have yielded for the first time some news since -- some news since the district attorney fannist willis suggested charging decisions were imminent. first news since then. we're hearing from her in the form of an intriguing new court filings. among the revelations, willis has conducted fresh interviews as recently as last week with a number of so-called fake lectors, republican activists who falsely claimed to be georgia's legitimate lectors

according to the filing some of last week's interviews, some stated another elector represented by kimberly debrow, quote, committed acts that are violations of georgia law and they were not party to these he additional acts. willis is seeking to disqualify debrow who is accused of creating an ethical mess debrow told "the atlanta journal-constitution" the prosecutor's allegations are baseless, false and offensive, adding she ethically and professionally represents her clients at all times joins us from the aforementioned atlanta journal constitution, msnbc contributor and georgia reporter greg bluestein and the one and only harry lipman, former deputy assistant attorney general and former u.s. attorney greg, do what you always do for me in these situations, which is help me understand what's going on in this case and in your

state. i read that script i've been paying attention to this all day and still don't totally understand what's happening. talk to us about what fani willis is alleging here. >> yeah, it is complicated one thing that stands out prosecutors are still very actively grilling potential witnesses and targets last week even with a decision on sdooimtss looming, this indicates to me and legal analysts as well this investigation is still very much ongoing and it's important because this is the first major development in this case since willis described a decision in january on whether she would file charges and you have the intensifying clash between not just between her office and the fake lectors, but also between the fake electors themselves several fake electors describe potential violations of an unspecified state law by another fake elect tore. it's a sign that there's

disunity and tension within the group of fake electors. >> a fake elect tore food fight and disunity and dissension in the maga world that's like a dog bites man news harry, what is fani willis complaining about and what does it mean she's trying to get this lawyer kicked off the case >> all right so what she is saying this lawyer represents ten electors, can't do it, there's a conflict, you can't represent people who are opposed to one another in their interests and they had interviews last week, where the guy said, somebody else who represents -- who this woman also represents, in fact, did it i did it and she is also fani willis saying we offered inimmunity before and the lawyer didn't pass it along. the lawyer is saying this is a complete lie and something is going to give on that. the tantalizing detail is that

they are focused so much on the electors and yes, it's a food fight, but that's a food fight that prosecutors love. what it suggests is you can put on one elect tore, give him immunity and they will incull pate another this is a two tiered case, everything in georgia and the national figures it suggests where everybody, including a new grand jury coming in may when she will pull the trigger, there's work to be done if she wants to parcel out immunity to certain electors you have to debrief them, put them in front of a grand jury. there's the secondary kind of timing point that it suggests. >> yeah. harry, i will stick with you and draw that point out to put a fine point on it so to speak i think if you had asked people who follow trump's legal entanglements and challenges a couple months ago what likely sequence of indictments if there were going to be indictments would come, it was maine,

georgia, and then the washington case the washington, d.c., case, under the special counsel. and that a lot of people thought the georgia indictments could be as fani willis said, imminent. it feels to me, again, i admit to being baffled by some of the legalese in here and taking a deep walk in the legal woods, but sounds to me on the basis of everything, yeah, she's on this case, she's focused on it, but the ways in which she's focused on it suggest this could take a while. we could be waiting for her -- this might be many, many or not just weeks but months before we get to a decision on whether there is going to be an sdooimts or not >> so maybe. and you're right, it's not about legalese she said, by that, i don't mean coming soon. it's an understandable confusion. a lot of people -- there's reason she will want all things being equal to bring an indictment at the beginning of a grand jury sitting that helps her potentially in

speedy trial terms a lot of people are focused the next grand jury comes in early may. it may be too soon to do at least this piece of it she could do it in piecemeal and she could start with one part of the plan and then go to georgia, and i don't think this suggests a months delay, but i don't see how she really gets it together in the first week in may, if they're still thinking -- that's the bottom line of this motion says to me -- still thinking of giving immunity out to some electors so they will testify against other elect tors >> looking at a my calendar it's april 19th. first week in may is not that long i think you may be right greg and harry are sticking around breaking news in one, maybe two of special counsel jack smith's investigations into donald trump. i went for a walk in the woods

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if you have to share a house with a host? ♪ only with vrbo as promised, breaking news regarding the investigations being run by special counsel jack smith in washington, d.c. "the new york times" reporting, boris epstein is scheduled to be interviewed on thursday by prosecutors in the office of the special counsel jack smith, according to people familiar with the matter. to secure testimony and effort from current and former close

a aides to mr. trump it's unclear what subjects they want to discuss with him given his expansive ties to mr. trump, he is in a position to provide information in both of the investigations harry, one of the things that's most striking about what's going on with jack smith in washington is his focus on lawyers. boris epstein until recently had been kind of the guy who was coordinating trump's legal efforts in both of the jack smith inquiries. like an in-house counsel he worked with lawyers defending trump in the fulton county case and in manhattan here comes jack smith going after boris epshteyn it's unusual not bad or good but something

you don't see that often talk about the way in which this special counsel seems to be focused in a laser-like way on trump's lawyers and potentially their complicity in some of his misdeeds >> it's uncommon and it's good trump executed so many of his crimes with the help of lawyers, in part relying that they couldn't reveal confidences. if they are complicit in crimes, you are able to. you need a lot of procedural approval in the doj and from courts that don't give it out lightly. but they have here he is really a -- he is one of the closest three or four lawyers. he is in-house counsel he is the only guy i can think of who has a big role in mar-a-lago, where he is in communication with corcoran wheth

whethwhen they are doing the declaration but several of the schemes involving january 6, including being in test with eastman and meadows. my sense is this comes from his camp as opposed to putting him in front of the grand jury, which is what they have been doing that suggests he is potentially thinking of cooperating. if that's true, that is a big inroad into the case for smith >> harry, i haven't had a chance to talk to you about this. we haven't been on the air together that often in the last few months is it your sense -- for those who look at jack smith and have seen the way he has been behaving, there's a gathering sense that the dude has the bit between his teeth and is the hard charging prosecutor people hoped for in this case is this another piece of evidence that will add to that picture? is that your general assessment

of how jack smith is doing on the basis of what we know? >> yes and yes >> gotta love a man -- it's a rare moment when i congratulate harry litman for his brevity more to come the supreme court giving itself two more days to decide on a major, major, major ruling affecting millions and millions of americans we will tell what you that is right after this quick break don't go away.

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if what's happening in this court is left to stand, it will, in effect, be a nationwide ban one does not have to or need to abandon their faith or deeply held beliefs to agree the government should not be telling her what to do right? [ cheers and applause >> it's 5:00 p.m today, the united states supreme court extended its temporary pause on a lower court's ruling on abortion medication access to the pill mifepristone remains intact for now the two-day extension, the stay issued by the justice, means the court has until friday night at 11:59 p.m. to decide whether to uphold the ruling by the fifth circuit court of appeals

limiting access to the drug which has been used by approximately 5 million people over the past two decade before this was extended the white house press secretary reiterated the administration's willingness to fight over this issue. >> we are prepared for any outcome the supreme court may issue. we are prepared for a long legal fight if necessary you heard me say this before we will continue -- we will continue to stand with fda's evidence-based approval of mifepristone it's used in more than 60 countries. we will continue to support fda's independent expert authority to review, approve and regulate a wide range of prescription drugs >> as we have been discussing for a while now, the stakes for this decision are, indeed, monumental for abortion access and could set a precedent for other prescription drugs

as we await the supreme court's final decision, late friday night, by friday night, just before midnight, today's republican party has been digging its heels in ever deeper into rolling back the rights of women to have control over their own bodies in the wake of the dobbs decision, more than a dozen states have banned abortion. in florida last week, they enacted a six-week abortion ban. ron desantis signing that bill into law thursday night with a lot less fanfare than he did last year with florida's 15-week ban. even republican leaders are beginning to recognize how perilous extreme abortion bans can be from "the washington post," how it appears is that desantis, a man rumored to be gearing up for a 2024 presidential run, has doubted that his new law will make him look good to a national electoral. he is wise to pass the six-week abortion ban under the cover of night because americans want access to abortion they support it overwhelmingly

it turns out many conservative lawmakers don't understand or do not care about that. joining us now, the president of pro-choice america, mini timarau, and barbara mcquade former u.s. attorney, now a law professor at the university of michigan great to see you give me your sense of what we are to make of the extension that the supreme court put out today giving itself another 48 hours to make up its mind about this >> the most important thing is there are a couple days where medication abortion and mifepristone in particular is unaffect and still available we don't know. we don't know if the delay is because they -- the justices are writing separate opinions or that they don't have a majority. in typical times, what would

happen is this case would have long ago been dismissed. the supreme court would send it back with instructions to dismiss. it should have never been there in the first place it's hard to have a sound prediction in this moment. >> barb, i'm going to ask you to -- i rarely invite lawyers to speculate, but in this case i will open the door tea leaf reader, student of the court that you are, as you think about the potential scenarios playing out here behind closed doors at the supreme court, what do you think might be going on back there >> it's very interesting i think there's probably three possible scenarios here. one is that they decide to preserve the status quo, mifepristone stays on the market and they have the case work its way through the court. of course, the trial court only found a preliminary injunction there's not been a trial allow that to play out the worst case scenario is to

say there's not a stay on that order and mifepristone is off the market and the fda approval is suspended while the case works its way through. i think there's a third option to say, what i think is the right outcome, which is say, these plaintiffs lack standing to bring this lawsuit. the lawsuit should be dismissed and done now we are not going to look at the me merits this is doctors who have speculated some day they might have to deliver a fetus with some sort of abortion gone wrong. that's not the kind of harm that is typically required in a case. it's the conservative justices who are usually looking to push back plaintiffs' claims. i think that it would be very difficult for them to, in this case, find that these folks have standing in light of the other cases where they have in the past and in the future want to beat back plaintiff claims that's a possibility and maybe the strongest.

>> in the wake of dobbs, with good reason, a lot of american women assume the worst on the part of the u.s. supreme court and are expecting the most terrible outcome here. talk about what happens if 48 hours from now or between now and friday night at 11:59, if the appeals court's decision is upheld and what that will mean for -- in the real world >> we are living in a moment of complete chaos for patients and providers across the country even in states where folks went to the ballot box and made sure their constitutions were protected and abortion access, like this supreme court said they would, they said they sent it back to the states, they would not meddle in abortion anymore. even in states like california and michigan, where we have enshrined abortion access through the popular vote, we are seeing chaos and crisis. folks don't know what information they can share providers are having to catch up

rapidly every day with the news. it's never a good sign when providers have to talk to lawyers before they are making health decisions for their patients we can expect more of that chaos if this goes the wrong way this weekend. i think i want to echo with a barb and fatima said this case should have never been heard. the fact this case has gone so far is really problematic. look, we are working on a lot of issues one is court reform. the confidence in this court is very, very low hopefully, the justices do the right thing and follow the strict rules they have set for standing >> as bad as the dobbs decision was from the point of view of a lot of people, it was not a ruling that outlawed abortion. it was a ruling that threw this back to the states and took away the right to the abortion but not abortion itself. now we are talking about something that goes further if this ruling was upheld i want to put up a poll about what the country thinks about

where abortion is legal, or the abortion pill should be available. where abortion is legal, the pill should be available 67% of americans saying that unavailable, that's 33%, that's a stronger endorsement than for abortion itself. yet the question that is at stake is whether this court is willing to go further in some ways, in many ways, in a core way, than it did with the dobbs decision and start talking about a gradual outlawing of abortion itself or the means by which it takes place. talk about what that could spawn in terms of the -- where the law could take us if this is the first step towards that. >> you know, we always knew that for anti-abortion extremists, the end goal was not saying each state make a determination it was banning abortion everywhere in this country

for those who are just waking up to that reality, that you could live in california, you could live in new york, you can live in the many states that have been expanding abortion access, and there is a drumbeat to undermine access everywhere in this country that is hard to take i think you will see the results of that politically. our law can't take this instability. it cannot be that a year ago they were saying that this is a state by state matter and then today a single judge in texas can overrule the longstanding process to get to the same result that sort of inconsistency in terms of how we see and view the law is a giant problem >> barb, every time i do this show i'm reminded i'm not a lawyer i'm reminded i'm glad i'm not a lawyer i'm also really glad that i have lawyers like you to help me puzzle through these things. the specter that this

mifepristone precedent could basically not just apply to an abortion pill but also could become open a door towards messing with the regulatory status of drugs in states across the country, all kinds of drugs, drugs that have nothing to do with abortion. it seems crazy, inconceivable if someone said, there's a court in texas that could wake up one day and tell you that you couldn't get your blood thinner or whatever drug it was that the court decided to render illegal. that seemsbe beyond the huge importance on the abortion front. this could make an utter travesty of the consistency of the american legal system and how we regulate some pretty basic things that matter a lot to absolutely everybody all the time >> yeah, i agree i think so far, we have had a judge make procedural rulings that there's a likelihood of success on the merits of having these plaintiffs be able to turn

back the fda approval of a drug that's been on the market 23 years. one of the things that give me cautious optimism is the supreme court, even with its hostility to the administrative state does not want to set back the entire pharmaceutical industry. big pharma is pushing hard here to make sure that once they get fda approval, cl requires years of development and investment, that then they know they are good to go and they can put that on the market and they can profit from it that's the business model. if at any point some judge who doesn't like the particular drug can just say, i think it was arbitrary and overrule the decision made by that executive body that's been entrusted by the american people to do that work, i think just turns the pharmaceutical industry on its head i think that the supreme court justices are not inclined to go so far >> i want to talk about the politics of this i mentioned ron desantis and the

six week ban when i was reading the intro to this segment. i want to give you a quote from a "washington post" piece. republicans are digging themselves into a hole on abortion this gets at the question. even ron desantis seemed to be bashful about this most recent iteration of his war on women's rights in florida. and yet, across the country, republicans, even with all of the evidence that we have that this is a political loser,

continue to on the policy front press further and further. can you explain to me why you think that is? b, what you think it is that will -- if they are currently ignoring the market signals that this is bad for them politically, what is it that will make them come to realize that opposing the wishes of the vast majority of their constituents is not a great way to get re-elected. >> i will add to that that according to a poll, 51% of republicans believe medication abortions should be available. that's the majority of their own base look, i mean, i think what the challenge is, you have a political party that has been in bed with extremist anti-abortion forces for decades they have been part and parcel of the destruction of this fundamental reproductive freedom in this country. they can't run away from it now. you are seeing the conflict happening in real time ron desantis' ban, the six-week ban is so extreme, it's before

most people know they are pregnant he also had a restriction on the books. he felt the need to go further that's because of the inherent conflict going on in the party i want to be clear even the members of the party, even the so-called presidential candidates or rumored candidates who are pretending to be moderate are not because they are backing egregious bans and restrictions across the country. what will it take to wake them up we have to have more fights like wisconsin where we had an overwhelming win in the supreme court race we will see ongoing victories for pro-choice reproductive freedom candidates we will see if it puts the republicans on their heels not one gop presidential nominee or rumored candidate or announced candidate had a statement to make about this case that's remarkable. >> let me ask this here is another striking example that falls into this category.

state of iowa, not an unimportant state in presidential politics, i will note it says it will no longer pay for rape victims' abortions or contraceptives, even though, according to the des moines register, 85% of iowans support access to abortion in case of rape or incest i've covered politics for a long time i gotta say, it does raise a basic question what is going on with the republican party when it decides to continually get behind pieces of legislation and administrative rulings and regulations that 85% of their voters oppose? >> i think what we are going to see over the next year is that there is no abortion bantha is extreme enough in this race for the bottom we will see moran more bans. we will see more efforts to

criminalize doctors, criminalize patients and people need to remember what they pass. everyone should be asked about what they think about this supreme court case ron desantis will not be able to able to run away from a six-week ban. no one else running should be able to run away from these extreme, outrageous bans and the harm they will cause to individuals around this country. >> guys, thank you very much for this conversation. incredibly important we will be waiting with, i guess, baited breath on the edge of our seat for what the supreme court decides. that deadline is 11:59 p.m. on friday that's how long they say they have -- they are giving themselves to make a final decision about the abortion pill breaking news right now that we have to come to regarding an effort by house republicans to push back on alvin bragg's investigation into donald trump as you all know well, resulted

in the first ever indictment of a former united states president. the federal judge appointed by donald trump has refused to block a subpoena from the house judiciary committee, led by jim jordan, for prosecutor mark pomerantz -- he worked with the manhattan d.a.'s office and had overseen the trump investigation. scheduled to appear for a deposition before that committee tomorrow barb, tell us what inferences to draw and what the implications of that decision are >> yeah. i think anybody who paid any attention at all knows that this is clearly a sham investigation. investigating the weaponization of a local prosecutprosecutor's. it's normally separation between federal and state law, different bra branchs of government.

so if it is considering legislation that it is illegal to investigate a former president, for example, this could be something that they want to talk about if they want to talk about funding initiatives for local prosecutors' offices, this could be something i think that it is an abuse of power of the committee to be scrutinizing the work of a county pros kecutprosecutor's o. but i don't flow aknow any judgn stop them. >> what do you think they will learn from pomerantz there's the question of the law. where do you think this is going to put -- is this going to have any impact in the end on the trump case here in manhattan >> i don't i think they will try to make hay out of it. if this were alvin bragg or anyone else they would refuse to answer questions mark pomerantz is tricky because

he has left the office and has written a book anything in his book is fair game i don't know any new facts will come out certainly, they will be presented in a way that look as sinister and nefarious as possible at the end of the day, i don't know this does anything that changes the case that gets presented in court against donald trump. >> that's good to hear thank you very much for taking time today one day after the dominion settlement, how hours and hours of covering the reported demise of america with skyrocketing crime rates, death coming upon us all, has run head first into the far right's urgent need to arm everyone three stories with tragic results to tell you about next he was supposed to be the gop's savior the one to lead the party into its post-trump future. what we have seen so far from florida governor ron desantis is

convincing republicans he is not quite ready for primetime. red states are increasingly becoming laboratories not of democracy but of authoritarianism we will explain that analysis coming up soon here on "deadline white house" after a quick break. don't go anywhere. jaycee tried gain flings for the first time the other day... and forgot where she was. [buzz] you can always spot a first timer. gain flings with oxi boost and febreze. your brain is an amazing thing. but as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory.

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one related to crime one that's not rooted in crime statistics the actual crimes statistics but instead to apocalyptic crime waves coming to a town square near you it's that fear mongering coupled with the second amendment is th cultural backdrop with these three horrific stories from just the last week. on thursday, in kansas city, missouri, you have heard, a black teenager asked to pick up his younger brothers he missgoes to the wrong house. the white homeowner and shoots him in the head and a second time in the arm after he is on the ground that man now facing two felony charges, including first degree assault. thankfully, yarl is now recovering at home in monday, a 20-year-old woman traveling in a car with three friends when they mistake lynn

turned into the wrong driveway something i do at least four timess a day. as they were turning around, the guy stepped out of the house and fired into the car one of the bullets killed gillis the homeowner has been charged with murder. then finally, last night in texas, a high school cheerleader mistakenly tried to get into the wrong car in a parking lot something i also do five times a day. she saw an armed car get out she got back in her friend's car. when she rolled down the window to apologize, he fired he has been charged with deadly conduct. today, lead gun control advocate and democratic senator chris murphy delivered a powerful message and warning about the tragic realities summed up by those stories and so many more >> we are becoming a heavily armed nation, so fearful and angry and hair-trigger anxious,

that gun murders are the way in which we work out our frustrations cheerleaders don't need to be shot when they walk into the wrong car. teenagers don't need to be murdered because their music is too loud f kids shouldn't fear for their life when they pick up siblings from a house in the neighborhood we can do better we can adjust the dials in order to decide not to live in this distone ya >> joining me now at this table, senior vice president of law and policy for everytown for gun safety, nick suplina and ben rhodes, former obama deputy national security advisor. nick, there are so many things that are so messed up about these stories. i don't in any way mean to be glib when i say these -- i do them five times a day, i do. people make these mistakes on

the wrong time pulling into the wrong driveway. it's the most common thing in the world. now increasincreasingly, it's ag you can pay with your life everyone seems to be on a hair trigger and armed to the teeth >> yeah. this is what we are seeing time and time again this is the price of a heavily armed society that is fuelled with fear, fear from the gun lobby that there's crime around every corner and that the only way to make yourself safe is to pack a gun fear from the gun industry that's ever innovating towards more dangerous firearms that can kill more quickly because you need to go after the hordes around another corner. facilitated by weak-needed lawmakers. the question we have to ask ourselves, when are guns going to make us safer when is the promise of an nra

talk about knocking on the wrong door, pulling on the wrong car handle, pulling into the wrong driveway is met with gunfire. this is not the society we know and we have known. this is marketing. this is a myth making to sell more guns. we need to do something about it we need to end that and say if guns made us safer, we would be the safest country on earth. instead, we have a homicide rate 25 times that of other nations the time is to call bs as we have been doing across the country and to do something about it >> ben, you have a situation here where people talk about mental illness and how we have the mental illness crisis in the country. the main mental illness is par paranoia you have according to a poll, 88% of u.s. gun owners say that they have a gun for protection

what we see in the case with yarl in missouri is a story of an old white man who saw a black man on his porch and was decided because he was black you have the girls, the cheerleader, the guy comes out brandishing a weapon when these girls are in cheerleader outfits and they pulled into the wrong driveway and he has his gun out and firing at them look at the picture we showed on camera it's crazy try to diagnose what it is obviously, they are all armed. where is this paranoia -- the connection i want to make. this paranoia about crime that's foi pushed on by people pedaling this >> there's an information ecosystem that has been built over many years in this country. facilitated and enabled by politicians, republican politicians, to scare people to death. the example i give that you

might remember to take it back to the obama years, 2014 mid-term elections there were things they wanted people to be afraid of ebola, isis, immigrants. literally, there were ads where ebola-infected isis terrorist crossing the southern border they rolled it into a ball of fear it's always something. it's crime now it's immigrants crossing the border sanctuary cities if you consume right wing media in this country, you are fed a steady diet of fear. all the things you should be afraid of. that's people who look different, black or brown. anything is meant to put you in a hair trigger any time there's any suggestion of just common sense, basic gun safety laws, that is used to convince people to go buy more guns what we saw in the obama administration, is any time there was an effort to address this, not only do they rally the lobbyists to defeat these things

in congress, they would surge gun sales because they would go scare people to buy guns it's the two things coming together you should be afraid and you should buy guns before they are taken away from you. that's radicalizing a swath of the society while simultaneously arming them. the only people who profit are the gun makers and some of the politicians who use this stuff or some of the people on tv who use it to get ratings. >> one of the things we used -- in the course of the obama administration, you had to observe the strange reality of people on the outside on the right largely saying, obama will take away your guns, and people on the left going, obama is not doing anything about gun control. equally, there's dual realities. what's happening in america versus what's happening in the dystopic topic of fox news what we heard from last fall to last week, a sampler, a tasting

menu of how fox news talks about crime in america right now let's play that. >> that's the end of civilization it exists in pockets around the world. if you think it's confined there, you haven't been to chicago. >> you want to go shopping in the windy city you might be risking your life. >> no shock, san francisco spiraling out of control >> everything is upside down this evil is spreading across the country. >> nick, it's -- we could play those all day. you could make a mash that would go for 60 minutes of listening to fox news hosts talk about whether it's -- back in 2014 was discussion about vermin coming across the border. all of it is driven by this perception of fear and driven by the notion that crime -- chicago is mogadishu when you look at this at every

town -- you are trying to make people understand this problem in a different way and talk about it that's a powerful narrative that ends up having really negative real world consequences. what can be done to try to combat those false narratives coming out of the right? >> we do this thing at every town not very popular at fox news, looking at the facts and science. when you look at states that have strong gun laws, for instance, you have lower rates of gun violence, lower crime the fact is that the very folks that decided to use taxpayer money to come to new york city just this week to have a circus show hearing on crime in manhattan were hailing from states and districts with far worse gun crime problems what we talk about is that gun laws matter. we have the stats. we have the data to back it up in fact, what we have seen as a political matter is that against these kind of talking points

about there's crime on the rise everywhere, one of the best retorts for democrats is to say, what have you done lately to increase gun safety? what laws have you passed to protect the citizenry? instead of, weakening gun laws make us less safe and leading to incidents we talked about. not to mention spiking road ra rage, stand your ground laws that are leading to hundreds -- 800 deaths a year. it's really effective to come back to those folks that are creating a fiction i was on the streets of new york it wasn't as it was described in the house judiciary committee this week. the way to combat it is with facts. we have facts on our side. >> when jim jordan was up here last week for his hearing on crime and alvin bragg put out a tweet, people were pointing out crime rates in ohio which were worse. the murder rate worse than here in new york.

there was a tweet, jim jordan proved one thing new york is the theater capital of the world that's the last word for this segment. thank you for coming on. ron desantis' war on disney is convincing more people, including republicans, that he might just not be ready to hit big league pitching. that story is next apps fast using the services you want in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you innovate and grow. get refunds.com powered by innovation refunds can help your business get a payroll tax refund, even if you got ppp and it only takes eight minutes to qualify. i went on their website, uploaded everything, and i was blown away by what they could do. getrefunds.com has helped businesses get over a billion dollars and we can help your business too. qualify your business for a big refund in eight minutes.

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things have not been going great for florida governor and threatened cat, ron desantis his poll numbers are sinking donors are panicking yesterday, he did the only thing a man can do he bullied a cartoon mouse desantis couldn't take control of disney world. now he is talking about what he can do to the land around the park a state prison next to disney. he is about to run for president and his latest proposal is, i'm going to put florida convicts next to your children. >> steven colbert, right on the money talking about ron desantis and his efforts to strike back at disney. his stock in the presidential primary field continues to shrink before he is even officially announced he has entered the race desantis is doubling down on his attempt to raise his political star through petty and ill-thought out culture wars he expanded with the help of the

florida board of education his heavily criticized don't say gay bill up to 12th grade now. the right wing "wall street journal" editorial board is panning desantis nobody emerges from this looking good mr. desantis is escalating a feud with a business that risks i alienating people. join ing us is charlie sykes an ben rhodes still with us i gotta ask, let's start here. you are a man who used to be a member of the republican party know the republican party. tell me -- >> used to >> what world -- in what world is it good politics for a republican man aspiring to the presidency to be attacking the biggest private mrour of the

state and the pure have aers of the mickey mouse >> in no world that i know ron desantis is desperate to be thought of as a fighter. somebody -- i'm your retribution, donald trump said ron desantis wants to imitate that the problem is, he picks lousy fights he picks epically stupid fights. you not only pick one of the state's biggest employers, one of the state's biggest economic out.in a fight seriously. go google thisn santis is fight disney about what? at this point it has become about the fight. it's become about showing that ron desantis has titanium gonads as opposed to anything else. it's another indication that he is not ready for primetime and he lacks the instincts he is going through the motions

that he thinks will endear him with maga. but he is picking fights he can't get out of, that make no sense, that become quagmires for him. it's interesting that all this is happening before he even gets into the race for president. >> charlie, despite the fact you said something about titanium gonads and ron desantis, i believe i saw your dog in the corner of the screen >> yes this is auggie it is thundering and he is worried. he needs to be here so he knows he is safe. >> if he wants to get in your lap, not a problem cornell, if you were here, ben would get in your lap because it's thundering here he might need comforting everybody is going after de desantis trump is beating the crap out of him. yesterday, chris christie was down in d.c. chris christie, talking about this disney thing, had a comment that a lot of existing

republicans and former republicans would agree with let's play chris christie talking about ron desantis right now. this is yesterday in d.c >> i don't think ron desantis is a conservative based on his actions towards disney that's not the guy i want across from president xi in negotiating our next agreement or across from putin if you can't see around a corner that bob ieger created forrer you. >> you are a democrat, not a republican i know it seems like republicans are from venus and democrats are from mars. maybe they have different ways of doing things. clearly they do because they no, ma'am noted donald trump and still stoerd pim talk about the dynamics in this -- you have seen candidates as they are about to get into a race and rather than building momentum, he is bildzing anti-momentum as he prepares to enter the race talk about desantis' fortunes in that republican race >> yeah.

this is not from a partisan standpoint but as as an old political campaign hack, they are fundamentals to campaigning. chris christie stolmy line the whole idea is you can't outwit the mouse, how do you sit across from putin? one thing that's important -- we learned this from the bush white house. the idea of presenting strength and being a strong leader is really, really important for conservatives on the right he is failing to do this i don't begrudge him for getting into petty politics. apparently, petty politics is how you come up in the republican primary see donald trump the problem is, i don't know if you aregoing to out petty donald trump right? in campaign 101, the guy who is in front of you at some point, you will have to take out the guy who is in front of you

you have to find some way to pull support away from the person who is, in fact, in front of you you have to give your rationale. i don't see what the rationale for desantis is if you are petty trump light. why am i going to take that when i can have the real thing? one last thing, i think the desantis campaign made a strategic error when he actually picked up trump's talking points about the d.a.'s and democrats coming after him for plys cal reasons. you have to have the guy in front of you disqualified. if you -- the top reason here was going to be, he can't win an election he has criminal problems he has corruption problems desantis campaign made the decision to not go after trump or even sidestep the question but to, in fact, pick up the trump talking points and take

away what's potentially right now the largest disqualifier of trump. he nullified that. >> petty trump light we will talk about petty trump heavy in relationship to ron desantis petty trump heavy and meatball ron. what a crew. we will talk about that with all of them whethen we come back not just florida, we will talk about how the red states under republican leadership have become the laboratories for authoritarianism, right after this es the driving. pack at your pace. store your things until you're ready. then we deliver to your new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team. you're doing business in an app driven, multi-cloud world. that's why you choose vmware. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you keep your cloud options open.

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it's guaranteed. feed your lawn. feed it. over the past few decades, and certainly the last few years, america has been ungulfed in a lot of petty partisanship in a new article in the atlantic, brian class argues that these red states underlying democracy have become test labs for authoritarianism in this country. here's what his piece has to say about that when democrats win at the ballot box, republicans try to n neutralize their power the protests they led were disruptive, but the expulsions were wildly disproportionate and likely motivated by race the attempt, as we all saw,

backfired as both were swiftly reinstated but that doesn't undo the fact that republicans tried to overdo the will of voters over a minor transaggression the botched attempt in tennessee. charlie likes, cornell belcher and ben rhodes are back. this is a subject i know you're fascinated by. the gap between red and blue america, wider than it's ever been, but now it's not just wide as we live in two americas but one america that increasingly looks like not a different version of democracy, but an anti-democratic version of america. >> it's not just about partisan agendas or political agendas, it's about a certain kind of authoritarian playbook that can be replicated in certain areas changing the structure of how a -- works to advance a right-wing agenda. if you look at what's happening

in different statehouses there's concerted efforts to learn from one another and it's well financed to do thing like redistricting, redistricting around state legislative elections, to do things like if a governor gets elect odd a state that has a significant republican majority in the statehouse, they just begin to systemically remove the powers the governor has copycat laws meant to take rights away. what we're seeing is a methodical effort to turn statehouses into these laboratories where republicans change not just what government does but how it works and who it works for. that's dangerous because that's trickling up to meet the authoritarian trend from the top of the republican party, and this just shows we're in a very long struggle here to kind of beat back this tide. >> charlie, we used to see competition between the states where you'd see low tax states versus high tax states, low

regulation states versus high regulation states. that's the way we define the difference between a red and blue america and the policies. now it's something different this ties back to our discussion of desantis, whose decisions to punish the walt disney cooperation, he admitted were a matter of personal pique he said they decided to oppose me politically over don't say gay. i decided it was within my lights to punish this company, this out of state company that was bringing california values into florida, behaving like a petty dictator what is it that -- you've seen that happen in your state, too, in wisconsin, at various times talk about that trend at the state level and how it is in some ways the seed bed for what we see at the national level of republican party. >> it doesfeel like a slower cold civil war here. it is not a new phenomenon that power corrupts absolutely and absolute power corrupts absolutely what we're seeing is you have

republican supermajorities, in many cases because of gerrymandering when you have a supermajority and you believe everything is at stake and that you're at war with oyour opponents, that there's this cultural moment -- you were talking about the politic of paranoia. you convince yourself that everything is at stake, that the issues are black and white, and this is your moment and you have this super majority and we have to decide, are we going to use it are we going to use to it keep our enemies out of power, to get what we want to be push through our agenda you will have that and so in one state after another, where you do have these massive majorities, you have these caucus meetings where people say, if not north carolina when? we need to do everything possible we have to make sure that those people, the enemies of all that is good and true, never get back into power and you're seeing that in tennessee. you're seeing that in florida, and you've seen it even in states like wisconsin.

>> cornell, real quick -- oklahoma, the governor called on these officials in mccurtain county to resign this is a case where the county commissioner lamented after a public meeting, secretly recorded we now have the audio of this, where he talked about how it was -- he lamented the fact that you could no longer yank black people out of jail and, quote, take them down to mud creek and, quote, hang them up with a rope. the governor's call on those commissioners to resign, but talk a little bit about this being another aspect of this kind of -- the difference between arred and blue america it's not just authoritarianism, but it's racist authoritarianism. >> i know we're out of time, so i'm going to say this quickly, and it connects with the previous conversation. i wish it was ideology, but it's white nationalism, racism. we're going to find out soon whether we believe in democracy or power because in a decade, a decade

and a half, and we're going to be close to a majority/minority country, and we're going to find out if we believe in democracy, one man, one person, one vote, or we just believe in power. >> cornell, thank you for wrapping that up quick if it was in my power i'd bend the time space continuum and you'd have forever to speak. thank you guys for coming ton today. we're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back after that you're doing business in an app driven, multi-cloud world. that's why you choose vmware. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you keep your cloud options open. (vo) if you've had thyroid eye disease for years and the pain in your eyes burns like a red-hot chili pepper, and enterprise control,

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