know, maybe ice cream is okay, right? that doesn't track with anything they've said before, right so the bar to, like, accepting this signal that was kind of popping up in the literature, it's going to be a high bar of evidence whereas yogurt people thought the two signals were of equal strength and yogurt was like, okay, you know, yogurt, maybe that's okay, right that's my interpretation i'm reading the tea leaves about how people responded >> i know it's still questionable, but i do think we should maybe enjoy some ice cream, just because, why not i'm going to believe it. that and a glass of wine >> cheers. >> thank you for coming on and giving us a little bit of good news at the end of this crazy hour that will do it for me "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone it's 4:00 in new york. one can fairly and objectively describe him as an attack dog, a

lackey, a loyalist and a true believer, but no one can deny his ongoing seven tralt to donald trump's conduct after today we can likely also describe him as a key witness into the multiple criminal investigations threatening donald j. trump. today when jack met boris, boris epstein, that is, one of the central figures in today's trump world is sitting down with prosecutors from special counsel jack smith's office. it is a development that is sure to inspire questions about where either one of those two criminal probes investigating the disgraced ex-president's conduct is heading "the new york times" reports this, quote, given his expansive ties to trump, mr. epstein is in a position to provide information in both of the investigations that mr. smith is overseeing one focused on trump's efforts to retain power after losing the 2020 election, the other centered on his handling of classified documents after he

left the white house until recently, mr. epstein played a critical role in both inquiries. it is difficult to overstate his place in donald trump's inner circle at this very moment he was even seen alongside trump at his arraignment in manhattan earlier this month his testimony could lead prosecutors to a wealth of useful information on some of the issues that they are zeroing in on. when it comes to january 6th, "the times" reports this, quote, he's been linked to a critical element of trump's bid to hold on to power. the effort to name slates of electors pledged to trump from swing states that were actually won by joe biden here he is on msnbc last year with our colleague ari melber admitting to setting up fake slates of electors >> there's also been reporting about the attempt to seat fraudulent electors. is that something you of worked

on or would support, for example, in michigan >> that's so funny not fraudulent electorates, it's alter net electorates so when the challenge would be heard and would be successful. >> sounds like a confession to me when it came to the probe into donald trump's handling of classified documents, boris epstein may have played a part in what could be a key element in a potential obstruction of that probe case that could be made against donald trump. quote, epstein is said to have played a role in connecting two lawyers who helped draft a sworn statement last june that a, quote, diligent search of mar-a-lago, trump's private club and residence in florida, and no classified materials remain there. that sworn statement is central to the document's inquiry because investigators ultimately found it was untrustworthy and within two months executed a search warrant at mar-a-lago

hauling away about 100 additional classified documents. a close trump ally meeting with special counsel jack smith and his team is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends including one of my favorite colleagues, msnbc host and chief legal analyst ari melber we saw in the interview with boris. also joining us andrew weisman, former prosecutor and senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation. with us from washington, "new york times" congressional reporter ari, i told you a minute ago, i heard boris and thought, ari, you're sort of the person who has interviewed him before jack smith will get a chance at that. i wonder if you could tell what's that line of questioning would be like. >> i think you laid it out so well, nicolle. this is someone who is central not many people go back to '15 and make it all the way to the arraignment. ivanka trump hasn't made it that

far. >> it's like dawn to dusk, right? just down the elevator, all the way through the arraignment, you're right >> two reasons for that, one, boris is incredibly persistent, loyal or committed person for donald trump, and people can debate whether that is a good commitment, but it is certainly evident. two, he is a lawyer and trump needs lawyers more than other people some of these political aides or even bill barr who was a government lawyer, different role, they've changed over time. but he needs these kind of lawyers, he and mr. tacopina who play that role in public yes, we had that exchange. what you saw was someone saying, well, maybe the receipts are already in maybe there's no way, and andrew can speak to this, to credibly argue in court -- not on some right-wing echo chamber but in court -- in an investigation you try to get out ahead of it, oh, we think there was a legal version of this. all i can say is the doj and

special counsel smith are investigating whether it was an illegal operation. >> what's so interesting, i think you put your finger on it, there's always an outside play and inside reality this was revealed in the mueller, volume 2 of the mueller report, or on the outside. i didn't do anything, i didn't do anything. there's nothing to find. the second volume is about trump obstructing the investigation into what there is nothing to find boris epstein seems to sit at the center of the outside game and the inside game where on documents he's been otv -- i'm not going to offend my viewers by playing much of it. he's been on tv saying he didn't do anything wrong. behind the scenes he may have been central to the most sort of dangerous act, the one under the most intense legal scrutiny, right, putting together bob and corcoran who have both been before the grand jury? >> i think when you're willing to go that far, lawyers aren't

doctors. doctors often do more important work than us you can only tell your lawyer or doctor, anyone with a professional obligation, how far to go, right at a certain point if you say to your doctor, no, i want to you do this. professionally, i can't do that. any good doctor has those lines. yeah, up to here is the treatment regimen. i'm willing to take the risk and try an experimental drug versus cutting my hand off. lawyers are supposed to be like that, too. we watched the case close at fox and other cases giuliani and others seem to break that. most lawyers, i believe in america try not to mr. epstein and the other lawyers are up against that line i'm sure andrew can say more about this, yeah, you have a very unreasonable client or a client saying things that are against his interest at a minimum, maybe illegal, maybe creating new crimes. your job as a lawyer, as a member of the bar is to stop that, not creatively write statements that may be perjury

>> he seems like baby rudy wouldn't boris epstein be part of at least the fake electors? >> baby rudy or baby yoda, these are terms. i did that at the direction of mr. giuliani, saying this goes above me with regards to the elector plot all that have comes back to at the 2020 side, and we don't know, as you said, exactly what they're questioning him on today. it will come out over time the 2020 plot was not one thing. it was a multipart conspiracy to use or abuse these different mechanisms, some that might be technically debatable, technically legal, and others, including the insurrection, criminal and loop them up in a way to say you can't really complete this today because here is this alternative slate or here is that mr. epstein has put him seven in the center of that, rudy,

eastman, navarro, they were all -- and bannon -- were all directing that >> in the manner they are so forthcoming when you press them on this and so brazen and basically confessing to their roles in the fake electors scheme that they are borrowing a page from the trump playbook >> yes. >> if i tweet it, i won't get in trouble? >> we heard on "seinfeld" it's not a lie if you believe it. >> it could be a crime, right? >> well, costanza. for trump, in his mind, i'm not saying this is true but about the playbook, for trump it's not a crime or a cover-up if you confess it in advance. >> i'm guessing jack smith will not buy that >> he won't but i do think that interviewing epstein is really important almost precisely because of the clip you played what jack smith is worried about is not so much can you build a case against epstein but does he

provide a mental state defense to the former president because we can all sit there and say oh, the fake elector scheme is a total crock. eastman is totally wrong as ari said, we can go on about the various components what you have to worry about if you're jack smith is the former president if he's indicted saying i was told and saw that epshteyn was saying it was fine. well, the lawyers may be wrong and they may have wrongly advised me, but that's what they told me. >> what if they say we've got eastman dead to rights, we're going to charge him with conspiracy to obstruct, you can follow his path down the yellow brick road or help us.

>> one way we haven't yet seen in all of jack smith's -- he hasn't been there all that long but we have not seen at all in this case is flipping people >> would we know >> yes >> because they would switch lawyers, dissolve joint agreements >> there are too many lawyers, boris epshteyn is representing by the former president's lawyer i find it inconceivable. >> what would he want from boris epshteyn if he's not going to help him build his case? >> epshteyn will be really hard for him to say i provided some sort of legal cover for the former president is mar-a-lago that's where he actually has to worry about his own liability. they either did a full search and that's terrible.

he will say i did a full search, then why didn't they find the documents? he can't say that. he can't say, oh, i said don't wor worry, you own all these documents, because that's ridiculous that's where he could actually hurt the former president and i think some utility out of what he's going to say. that's fine and you want to know what he will say the key is going to be if boris epshteyn is saying with all of these other components i believed it, you really want to push back on that. the key thing is how did you believe there was sufficient fraud in the election? what's the proof of that there's a lot jack smith has to work with but he has to be able to undermine that idea that boris epshteyn is going to somehow provide -- it's not quite advice of counsel, because it's not saying i gave him legal advice but saying that the former president saw a lawyer saying this seems fine and so he had no reason to think it was illegal. and, remember, this is going to

be a criminal case where the intent of the former president is so key. and even though we may all sit around and go this is ridiculous, as a prosecutor you're worrying about how do i prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. so interviewing him is definitely the first step. one other oddity here we've heard so much about people going into the grand jury. this is not in the grand jury. this is an interview and that makes me think there was a lot of negotiation over this because boris epshteyn has a fifth amendment privilege he could have asserted, and you can imagine the defense lawyer saying, you know what, he won't assert it if he can come and talk to you -- >> like negotiating an interview with him i'm listening to you and wondering if in your view having interviewed/interrogated him yourself, is he a witness more pat cipollone or rudy giuliani >> more bannon but as a member

of the bar he may have some greater awareness how far he wants to go. we've seen, look, the other thing that relates when you talk about copying trump, i'm not sure you want to be great at copying trump. but if you're bad at it, it's even worse you can speak to this having dealt with him, he has evaded probes you're not him you're not a former president. if you are in the muck of it it's harder to get those distancing techniques. i think, yeah, they go in thinking they're so clever and we'll see where they land. mr. bannon was convicted of defying congress something that has never happened with mr. trump. and mr. navarro is awaiting trial on the same thing. >> luke, i want to bring you in on some of "the times" reporting on this bucket of people, trump's lawyers. in emails to trump attorneys,

evan corcoran, mr. herschmann, argued pointedly that case law about executive privilege did not reflect what mr. corcoran believe it did mr. herschmann made it clear precluding a witness on the basis of executive privilege he had implored them to seek he would be forced to testify i certainly am not relying on any legal analysis from either of you or boris who, to be clear, i think is an idiot i am not relying on any legal analysis from either of you or boris who, to be clear, i think is an idiot, mr. herschmann wrote. when i questioned boris' legal experience since he appeared to have none, challenges that resulted in multiple court failures, he boasted that he was, quote, just having fun

while also taking selfies and posting pictures online of his escapades. again, if boris is going to be charged, if there is some sort of conspiracy charged in object strucking official proceeding, i would, again, wouldn't herschmann make a great witness against him? >> right well, eric herschmann became sort after mini star during the january 6 committee hearings for a reason and that's because he was so colorful and blunt. but in this case the january 6th committee, though they issued a subpoena to boris epshteyn, never actually interviewed him or heard from him. i do think there was some negotiation to get him to come in and testify to the special counsel. that said he was involved at the willard hotel meetings in the buildup to january 6th there's evidence that he was involved in a call with donald trump himself on the morning of

january 6th in which they discussed pence's unwillingness to throw out the certification of the election according to the january 6 committee. we reviewed emails about the fake elector scheme that we published last summer. he's at least the offensive coordinator or quarterback of it he's coordinating about different groups when there are different groups of fake electors meeting at different state houses across the country. what they're going to certificate and where to send it there is a lot of concern from different lawyers about this being fake -- about this being treasonous, illegal. you can see discussions where

various lawyers and participants are raising concerns isn't this illegal, and they were not alternate electors in the emails i would expect that he would be questioned about that whole scheme in addition to the documents case >> let me read -- i have that story that you worked on you reported this, quote, we would just be sending in fake electoral votes to pence so that someone in congress could make an objection when they start counting votes and start arguing that the fake votes should be counted. that was a phoenix-based lawyer who helped organize the electors in arizona he wrote that in a december 8th email in 2020 to boris epshteyn. in the follow-up email the same phoenix lawyer wrote alternative votes is probably a better term than fake votes adding a smiley face you have herschmann, wilenchik,

it was all a joke. it seems one of the four crimes referred by the select committee boris was, as you said, at a minimum the offensive coordinator. >> you can see how he was in the trump team that did prompt a lot of concern from some of the other lawyers because boris was sort of known as the yes man, the good news guy who would tell trump exactly what he wanted to hear and not the advice from other people who would say this isn't a great idea the whole scheme was kept off to the side away from some of the other more responsible lawyers and was the side project on behalf of giuliani he has a lot to see, a lot to tell, we'll see how forthcoming he is with the prosecutors here and what kind of stipulations he put on this interview because i

do think he has a lot of information. >> i mean, do you think he's willing to go to jail for donald trump? >> no, i really don't. >> so what does that mean? if eastman and clark are targets in an investigation, you think boris makes a hard choice to cooperate with the law, or do you think he -- >> i don't know what his approach is, but a lot of people -- and this is what's so wild -- have been willing to go to jail. weisselberg just got out of rikers -- >> drank the whole jug of kool-aid and think he will be president again. >> they think in the wider span of their life this is a tradeoff they can somehow make sense of, i guess, because mr. weisselberg gave damaging information to some degree about the trump organization but never about mr. trump himself. he could have gotten a lighter sentence or never set foot in rikers mr. navarro is on this very don

quixote tilting at gosh knows what, and might end up in prison over the january 6th committee which no longer exists i don't see bore is in that milieu it would suggest a semicooperative posture, a long way from saying i'll risk it all. >> i want to establish jail or no jail. it means these meetings may yield something and i guess if you're jack smith and you've been the closest to being jack smith in any of our conversations, what do you -- what is your conversation with boris like >> your question, would he go to jail for him the weigh ay you impress that, though, you have the goods if you want to have that conversation with defense counsel, you basically say he's going to be charged, and you can't bluff. when you're a player like this if you say that, you have to

carry through. if you bluff once and you're caught, you're dead. if he says that -- but the issue is does he have the goods to put enough fear in somebody where they're thinking, you know what, i do have to decide do i want to be on the united states side or the versus side -- >> is running the fake electors plot with eastman enough >> unclear that eastman is going to give enough -- if he is cooperating, that he is the witness who is going to give you epshteyn i think on mar-a-lago, however, that's where i see -- if you're looking for a toe hold, where is the pressure point it only takes one -- >> one crime >> exactly >> it's trump, what about this one? how about this one >> that's how you make these cases. you look for one crime and then you have that conversation with the defense counsel because i think with epshteyn so far he's

like this has been totally fine. his demeanor in the interview with ari was not exactly appropriate for the circumstances. but the way this is done is you have to be able to show the defense lawyers that you have the goods, and that's the one thing that's sort of been missing is we haven't yet seen those sort of interim prosecutions, and that is what helps defense counsel know this means business, like i actually have a choice to make. >> we'll keep watching ari, i know you have a show to do i'm always so jealous when i see you on other colleagues' shows so i put out the call. thank you for saying yes >> we don't make predictions but i hope to see you briefly at 6:00 >> you see me every day. i sort of like -- itch two dogs and make puppy analogies i'm the puppy ready for a walk if you want to talk, i'm here for you. >> thank you you're very kind

>> you're like i could talk but i have a show and a rundown. >> i don't know if this is the forum to discuss this -- >> i have two hours. >> the thing about this -- >> you go to therapy and back to the show >> when i got involved in this work, as i know you did with other career history, we meticulously plan everything we have a great team we plan everything but the handoff which is never planned sometimes it's fast and sometimes it's three minutes, sometimes it's about whatever. it's the unplanned part of the day. >> i think that's what people like >> we talk about the news, we talk about dogs, or leading in she gave me -- she opened the door moments before you came on air today they had a big story going about how there are health benefits to ice cream. >> i've read about this. this is on my mom thread >> thank god >> throw away the green juice. >> maybe we'll talk about that in the toss. >> we hope our kids don't see that thank you very much.

thank you. they're all screaming wrap >> not that wrap >> sorry about it. andrew weissmann is not going anywhere when we come back, talk about a scam within a scam by a scammer, getting away with it this time prove me wrong the $5 million lesson into why you should not make promises you can't keep new reporting on the historic many hundreds of millions of dollar settlement, the role of a secret mediator who was on vacation traveling down a european river on vacation making phone calls, secret phone calls to make that deal happen and why everyone ultimately agreed to it and later in the show the frightening reality of gun violence in america as we learn more details about another shooter who was fed nothing but dystopian stories of neighborhoods overrun with

criminals and urged to stockpile weapons. we'll show you what he did all those stories and more after a quick break.

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now, mike, and if someone comes forward and says this is bs and i'm going to show you why and he's going to show how what you're showing is not the truth and invalid and you're going to give them the time to speak and show the evidence, this person will get $5 million, right >> $5 million that will be live

streamed on tv that's why we put up the $5 million, or i put up the $5 million myself >> that's a lot of pillows that was mike lindell, the pillow guy, back in july of 2021, almost an entire year after the 2020 election, which joe biden was elected president. it was ahead of his cyber symposium. lindell claimed to have data and chinese election data, and promised to pay $5 million to anyone who could prove it was not from the 2020 election this week something remarkable happened, though unsurprising considering, from "the washington post" reporting today lindell called the challenge prove mike wrong on wednesday a private arbitration panel ruled that someone did. the panel said robert, a computer expert and a 63-year-old trump voter from nevada was entitled to that $5

million payout zeidman concluded not only did it not prove voter fraud it had no connection to the 2020 election they directed lindell's firm to pay zeidman within 30 days at the table investigative reporter as well as an msnbc political analyst, has written extensively about fox news and its hosts. a democratic strategist and director of the public policy program at hunter college is here andrew is still around nick, it falls in the category of sort of losing your own base, right? this wasn't some fact check, this is a voter who consumes what lindell creates content wise i don't know where you find him anymore. and ate it, took him for his word and disproved him now mike lindell owes him $5 million. >> it's amazing. zeidman is a trump supporter

he went to the symposium to see the facts. he said in the trump story, i assumed the guy wouldn't put out bad information, so i wanted to see it revealed. he was shocked to realize what was in the data was just garbage, strings of numbers and not the promised evidence of chinese interference so he said, hey, i'm right and you're wrong i want the money lindell would not give it to him. they had to go into mediation and he won and got his $5 million. >> this story, i think you can look at it two ways, stupid human trick, he gets caught lying. the other is really important and really central to what we talk about every day we cannot convince the trump base that joe biden won the election, right? if we could, we wouldn't have political violence, we wouldn't have people running around thinking that donald trump should be the president. we wouldn't have people consuming all the conspiracy theories they need to hear it from someone within their movement. every effort at counter extremism has a central tenet

that only begins within the movement that you can counter extremism. it is really important mike lindell pay this trump voter $5 million. >> it's extremely important and it reminds of the kinds of characters that have been around donald trump for his whole career and his public life as a candidate as president of united states you're wondering who is that guy? what kind of advice is that guy giving to the president of the united states? we saw these characters in trump's ear. if you were paying attention you were quite fearful of why is the my pillow guy getting all this access to the white house and how is that going to affect my life i think you're right that it will take people like in this situation to be able to come out and say, look, everybody that's around trump and trump himself, i think the my pillow guy turned our democracy into a game show by offering this $5 million to prove that there's something wrong with our voting system

and my concern, however, is that because of the cultish behavior -- i mean, it's deep-seated, far beyond just an anger and fear about our sense of loss and your future, it almost has religious overtones and undertones that's not easily correctible, if you will. and certainly not in one campaign cycle but if it's going to happen, it needs to happen away from the influence of a donald trump. so in some ways it's not up to democrats to do it it's incumbent upon republicans to find the candidate they can put up to say this is the direction we need to go in not where we've been >> and we won't hold our breath for that we were talking about how the legal system now increasingly has to get involved where before our politics might have spared us some of this conflict this is about a promise made on tv, a deal offered -- again, we played the evidence -- and

arbitration has already ruled in the favor of the man who disproved mike lindell how strong is the law in terms of protecting his access to the $5 million he's owed >> again, this is a mediation, so it is a form of the legal system having to step in because it's a place where facts actually matter. but to your point and just to be pessimistic about this, that was the strategy of the january 6th committee, which was they wanted to prove their case through republican leadership to say we're going to call your side. don't take it from democrats take it from republicans who say this is not true and here you have someone who went in thinking, you know what, i want to see the evidence because i bet you that is going to be really strong and it's not there. you can add it to the 60 legal cases donald trump and his allies lost, and now you have this mediation that they lost. could it affect enough voters in

the middle that's what everyone hopes i agree there's a base of a deep or religious fervor that i don't think they're going to think, okay, well this guy got it wrong or someone got to him or it's not true this even happened and they'll just disbelieve it in the same way they're not watching the january 6th committee and they're willing to go with donald trump's don't believe what is in front of your eyes and what you're hearing >> he said that. do you think he'll get his $5 million? >> yes >> from the pillow guy that's a lot of lumpy pillows. >> it's a tough pill to swallow. >> very good i can't top that coming up next, fox news' legal hurdles are far from over promising to expose the rest there's more of those embarrassing and damaging revelations exposed by dominion. there's still a lot to unpack about how exactly this week's historic settlement came to be we'll bring that you new reporting next glass damage, trust safelite.

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april 27th through may 3rd. this offer won't last long. now is the time to partner with our experts. get started today with verizon business. it's your business. it's your verizon. asking the right question can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this? - what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - are you a certified financial planner™? - i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. we are learning some really colorful and incredible new details about what exactly went down behind the scenes between lawyers for fox news and dominion that led to news that surprised all of us at the time, news of their settlement as we came on the air tuesday. "the washington post" is reporting it came down to, quote, an emergency email sunday morning to longtime mediator

jerry roscoe who was floating down the danube river. by tuesday morning, quote, outside the courtroom roscoe was making headway for the vacationing mediator, that required calling in from his hotel, a boat, even a bus holding his phone in his winter coat for privacy roscoe said he quickly ascertained that dominion's monetary demand was not the only issue keeping the two apart. they were also divided by a dispute over the language fox would release acknowledging the court's ruling fox had spread falsehoods about the company but over many calls the sides got closer and then finally, quote, it was nighttime in romania. roscoe said, quote, there was just a sense of relief and accomplishment he declined to say which side seemed more interested in settling i think they both were interested in getting this matter behind them, he said. we are back with nick, basil and andrew does this part of the story surprise you at all? >> no. first, civil cases very often

settle and they very often settle on the courthouse steps so it didn't seem surprising because we all thought if it got this far and fox hadn't settled to keep all of these terribly damaging documents out of the public light, maybe they're not going to settle, and maybe somewhere there's something that's keeping them apart. that was the surprising part and then a mediator -- what a mediator does is basically they say privately, let me tell you about all the problems in your case and all of the things you need to worry about and all of the things that can happen and even if you win you won't see the money for years. nick, let me tell you about the problems in your case. and they try to stress different things to see if they can bring people to a consensus. it is a dispute between two private parties. and so if they can resolve it, that's what the mediator is trying to do >> that they were in mediation

at the same time we were getting ready to cover the first day of the trial is what is interesting to me. we talk on the show all the time about that which we know, that which is opaque and we've covered the mueller investigation this way we knew we didn't know what was happening from 6:00 in the morning until 11:00 at night this is in that category of shocking, not surprising, right? of course murdoch didn't want to take the stand and be publicly prodded and interrogated by anybody. >> kudos to "the post" and "the journal" that talks were under way and they were further advanced than many people, including me, thought. what i found surprising but not surprising, as you say, the thing i thought was going to make the settlement hard was the thing that was making the settlement hard, the terms of an apology -- >> right >> and in the end, everyone got what they wanted which is a pretense of an apology without an apology a non-apology apology. >> they didn't get an apology.

all that they actually got was -- what's interesting about this reporting in the end they don't get an apology nobody from fox says i'm sorry all they do is acknowledge the judge ruled the way he ruled >> but that could have cost fox a lot of money because if you're dominion, okay, you don't want to say you're sorry, this is the price tag just went up there's a cost to that and, remember, this is not a -- this is not the government this is a private party and they're like, that's what you want there's a cost to it >> that's exactly the point i was going to make, because it is not government we don't have the same sunshine laws opening the door on negotiations, i wonder what now for the american people -- there are a lot of folks that would want to say fox news closed out, fine but the question, does any of this help them change or force them to change the way they do business, the way they report news, and the way in which the average voter is going to accept that information as it's

reported i don't know that we get there and it doesn't seem that fox will end this settlement, be able to say enough to get a number of voters to believe they've changed course, that they are truly -- that they understand their complicity and they're somewhat contrite and will do something different. i don't think any voter believes that's going to happen the question is, is it going to change their practices at all? does it make the voter more confident in the work we do? i'm not so sure. >> the decision desk is smeared in internal communications it is -- if you believe as rupert does the truth emerges, maybe we findthe answer to som of those things. >> we've seen the answer and the answer is they have kept on doing a version of the same storyline on air every day since

2020 they've stopped doing that but the central idea the election was wrongly won, that something wrong happened in 2020, that biden is not legitimate, is very much in the air. look, i see this settlement, be it's a big settlement, but for fox a tax on their business model they have to pay so they can keep doing what they've already done and give the audience what they want which is trump should be president. >> what is your sort of viewer's guide about the case they are talking a big game. the january 6 committee talked a big game and they delivered over and over again should we believe that they will get what they want >> they certainly have the road map. that's the down side for fox is they can -- they see that plaintiffs now know what they can do and they also know that fox is willing to settle now their issue is how much more is out there on tuesday we tried to get that

answer from counsel, but there was redacted material. making sure you get the same kind of documents that was just produced you want to see all of them. they should have a pretty strong hand the real issue to me is going to be damages these are strong on liability which is remarkable. that's where plaintiffs get poured out and don't have a case there's potential for more smartmatic is a private company. that's not their job >> let me ask you, didn't the dominion trial end with the judge basically saying i don't trust any of the discovery process. here are a bunch of recordings i

had. doesn't smartmatic start with the discovery process? >> you would think the next motion is to a court saying -- the special master that was going to happen, we need that here because one thing you have learned you can't trust them and we're not saying it's the lawyers. we just know somewhere between the lawyers and the client, they are not producing what they need to do. so much so there was a judge who had found that problem existed and was willing to appoint a special master that is a lot of leverage. if you are any company in america, you do not want a special master pouring over all of that because there could be real liability there if there is somebody who intentionally kept documents, this is obstruction of mar-a-lago, it's not what you did, it's after what you did what you did >> the cover-up. i guess the problem to your point is there hasn't been a bucket of consequences you can

point to for obstructing federal investigations, for damaging democracy for lying. >> in a slightly related point, i was reading an article about brazil the other day and added video of don jr. popped up why is that happening? brazil, balasonaro whether it's someone in the trump camp, those recurring themes will pop up in our lives across a number of different activities we may engage in every single day, and there's nothing about this lawsuit or the settlement that changes that in any dramatic way in my view >> i think you're right. you are sticking around. we'll sneak in a quick break and will turn to a conversation we all started having on tuesday about the media and some of these companies starting to pay a price. the question basil keeps asking, does it chgean anything? and if not, how do we change it? that's next.

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>> insane people like this guy. >> hello, i'm mike lindell. >> we want to make sure. >> you're watching fox news. >> it will make you dumber. >> i don't have any words. that's so good >> that was the fantasy. right? so many people who wanted to see something like that in real life and didn't get it. >> i think when you hear them in your own voices, you realize the fantasy was a delusion. >> understanding what you need is standing in front of their building -- >> that's what murdoch wanted. we know from the emails that murdoch wanted laura ingram, sean hannity, and tucker carlson to basically do that. >> that would have been great, but we'll never get that it would have been nice to see, arm in arm admitting culpability, but it won't happen. >> you've got a smart piece out, though, that there is something dangerous about dressing up as a news organization. >> yeah. i mean, we read this piece for

the atlantic with ryan goodman that compared the case with alvin bragg brought, leave aside the criminal aspects nobody has disputed what the national inquire was doing, was it was in bed -- >> catching and killing. >> right for a candidate, which was basically a form of how do you massage what we the public get you want to talk about fake news, this was a conspiracy between national inquire and donald trump to create a fake story about who he is. that is what we just saw with dominion versus fox, which is the exact same thing, which is they were perfectly willing to just have a completely fake story, which they knew internally was fake. again, you have an even bigger media organization -- i won't say a news organization -- that was willing to do the bidding of

one particular candidate you start talking about democracy versus a whole bunch of countries you look at and think, what's so great about america is we have a free press, and this is really the corruption of the free press and in a really significant way both in the bragg case and dominion case. >> and trump told us he was going to do it i think your e-- trump doesn't stop he picks up the pace this was the plan, he never lied about it, and he does it to this day. >> you can see this conservative politics, a growing reliability on the media it's moved to being one of ten major themes to one of four. if you think about the big lie, disinformation, some of these can be doubled through the court system for the most part, it's a democratic problem

it can only be solved politically. if one party's people are being fed untruths, and they lose elections because of it, they eventually start to question, and the system rearranges itself we haven't had that happen yet, and if we were going to compare this to the burke society, it's now the majority of the gop. eventually if sthe want to win, we'll see. >> thank you so much for spending time with us today at the table. it's so nice to have everybody back up next, america's gun culture out of to control and out of hand as calls grow again for something to be done we'll have that conversation next one extra push and... crack! so, we scheduled at safelite.com. we were able to track our technician and knew exactly when he'd arrive. we can keep working! ♪ synth music ♪ >> woman: safelite came to us. >> tech: hi, i'm kendrick.

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i hope and pray that at some point, enough becomes enough >> what is the point >> you know, we wondered that throughout our entire presidency, thinking that this time -- >> yeah, barack obama said it was one of the worst days of his presidency, and we still didn't get that message. >> we are the only developed country on the planet where its citizens can have unfettered access to firearms that is not a good thing and more of us have to feel strongly about it. in particularly, our young people this is where democracy comes in voting -- all this stuff is decided in the ballot box. >> hi, again, everyone maybe that time is finally here. it's 5:00 in new york. it's a question we ask all too

frequently on this program and in this country. and all too frequently, there's never an answer when it comes to gun violence and gun deaths in the country, when exactly will enough be enough guns are the leading cause of death for americans under the age of 19. according to the cdc, firearms accounted for nearly 20% of children's deaths in 2021. really, if you're paying attention, in the last week, there have been a terrifying slew of events, shootings of people, young people who just made mistakes that i've made a million times in my life, and they got shot. ring the wrong doorbell, getting in the wrong car i almost did it yesterday. tragically one of those encounters was fatal, someone lost their life. this program yesterday covered the three incidents. last thursday when a teen range

a doorbell and was shot. an 84-year-old named andrew lester shot him. he's now recovering from a gunshot wound to his head at home a 21-year-old pulled into the wrong driveway in rural new york they pulled into the wrong house and attempted to turn aaround after getting lost she was shot and killed. the home owner came out and opened fire at her car on tuesday, two texas cheerleaders were shot after one mistakenly tried to get in the wrong car outside a supermarket. one of them was critically injured. sadly, in the last 24 hours since we told you about those horrific shootings, another one has taken place. in north carolina, a man shot at his neighbors after a basketball rolled into his yard 6-year-old kinzly white and her dad william were shot. william remains in critical

condition. luckily kinzly was well enough to be released from the hospital just a kid what are these people doing? what is happening? these series of incidents beg the question that we all have to sit down and have the conversation, what kind of country are reliving in? right now, today, is this what we want? the president of everitown said it is one of shooting first and asking questions later krid, a man of the 84-year-old that shot and killed ralph said the constant fear and stoking distrust on fox news' air waves had radicalized his grandpa. >> i feel like a lot of people of that generation are caught up in this 24-hour news cycle of

fear and paranoia he would sit and watch fox news all day every day, and i think that stuff really kind of reenforces this negative view of minority groups and leads people to be -- it doesn't necessarily lead people to be racist, but it reenforces and galvanizes racist people and their beliefs. >> that leaves the rest of us to live with the frightening reality of us or anyone we love being the victims of gun violence anywhere in america it's the story we begin with cecilia is here. former president of planned parenthood david is joining us. editorial board member margaret, and molly, a special correspondent for vanity fair. so david jolly, i'm going to come to you first because i'm guessing -- i'm surmising, that you and i keep a closer eye on

fox news than anyone else in the table. but what they turned to when trump left was a distorted picture of crime in america. and what is on every night is crime in america's urban centers, it is leaking out like a crime wave spilling out across the cities and creeping into a town square near you it is on night after night after night. i'll play some of it in a minute it is a programming decision we know that at fox news, there are no accidents there are only strategic decisions about how to goose the audience and plump the audience and keep the audience. in this case, they have made a programming decision to terrify their audience >> that's right, nicole. at fox news, their fear and paranoia is based on a foundation often of zen phobia and racism

whether it be migrants or crime in the urban corridors, it is about communities of color i said bluntly recently to your colleague chris hays that for republicans, crime is something committed by black americans and brown americans, and gun culture and gun violence is just something unique to white culture, so they want want to address the gun violence and culture. they want to misrespect crime statistics and suggest it is around communities of color, which nurtures this fear that i think you heard the grand son of that assailant in that one case reference. i think these cases allow us to approach this question differently than the mass shootings and the school shootings because these are not so much isolated, it's a string of isolated events tha represent our gun culture in the country, and it is a culture that has to be crushed if we are now talking about these singular events, pulling into the wrong driveway, getting

into the wrong car, if that is the gun culture in america, it allows us to talk about the most restrictive uses, comprehensive background checks. we can get way beyond just the banning of weapons of war and say if our culture in america is this violent around gun ownership, now let's introduce the most restrictive environment to try to save us from that. i think that's a debate a lot of americans and politicians are willing to have this week. >> and cecil, i wanted you here for a million different reasons. guns are the leading cause of death for kids the drug is on the wish list of being made illegal, rendered obsolete or difficult to obtain, making women more at risk. guns, have at it, folks. >> yep no you're right i would love -- i appreciate

david's enthusiasm for doing big things, but i come from texas, one of the first states to both ban abortion and also to allow anyone to carry anything any time i was just seeing the parents from uvalde who were at the texas capital yesterday testifying simply to raise the age of getting a semiautomatic weapon from 18 to 21 i mean, that's not very bold but even that, the governor has said he will not support and the nra has said they will not allow it to happen so i appreciate david's optimism, but the republicans love guns more than they love life, and until the culture changes in the republican party, i'm terrified like every other american about what this is leading to >> i will confess that i struggle to find my optimism in

our politics, and part of it is this let me show you what they're consuming every night. this is just a smattering fox news. >> first we begin tonight with something really deadly serious, and america is now suffering from what is a severe violence and murder crisis. >> we feel helpless with this crime because it is so random. >> we are helpless all of us are helpless. >> as violent crime continues to plague chicago, it's not only hurting the people who live there, but also the businesses people call home. >> crime and disorder, not just in chicago, but across america. >> they say liberals aggressively encourages crime. crime destroys their neighborhoods and the lives of the weakest. >> it's insane, but it's really important. it's really important to understand -- and again, the

dominion lawsuit may not have ended the way people wanted it to end, but it gave us some important pieces of intelligence if you will. everything is about the stock price, their compensation packages that's the only thing i left wanting more information about at least tucker carlson's. they need people to believe this whether or not they care that some people who may be consuming their content are now shooting people at the doorbell, i don't know it's unknownable but what needs to happen is that someone needs to say, i don't want to be a part of that. some mayor or democratic republican needs to say, i think this is dangerous. i'm also wondering whether democratic candidates or republican candidates for that matter will send their candidates door to door. i think people that rely on door to door interactions have to be having conversations about

safety. >> there's been such a shift in the way we feel, i think, going about our day-to-day lives even in just the past few years feeling like we had a sense of safety, and now wondering if just everyday interactions are going to put us or those we care about in danger. this isn't an entirely unfamiliar thing to black americans. this does remind me growing up, i remember a moment where we had a neighbor, a white neighbor who had been locked out of her home and asked my father who's black to help her climb into the window of her second floor -- the second floor of her home, and my dad was like, sorry, i really want to help you, but if the police come book biand see me climbing through that window, i could be shot. as a kid, that was devastating to think about that. this isn't completely unfamiliar the difference is there are so many more guns now of course, we have a cable news

network and unfortunately a political movement in the united states that has served to radicalize some americans, millions of them, it seems as we saw on january 6th and continue to see, but also to dehumanize millions of other americans, starting with black americans and also immigrants. and i think because of that, this is a really combustible, dangerous situation. it's a perfect storm and it is extremely devastating to me that it is exactly what cecil said there seems to be a part of the american culture now, and it is white american culture -- it's not all white american culture, but it's there -- that seems to privilege holding on to guns more than taking care of children and then turns around and wants to ban abortion. and so i think for those of us who aren't living in that cable news vortex over at fox news, it is head-spinning,

stomach-churning, and completely irrational, and it makes us wonder where we're going as a country. >> chris murphy asked some good questions about this i'm going to play that for you. >> we also need to ask some deeper questions about why people in america are just so unhappy and so alone that they would resort to violence this regularly and this casually. i think the gun laws should change but there is also an anxiety, a fearfulness in this nation that we can have a collective conversation about we shouldn't accept this shoot-first culture, at kids, at cheer leaders, at students, at people shopping at grocery stores as our new reality. it's a choice. >> so i think that the choice -- i mean, chris murphy talks about

it, michelle obama is getting at it there isn't a circuit breaker. other than alex jones, the right understands the horror of it what can change anything is to make someone unelectable who is for arming everybody in america with one hand and yanking abortion pills off the shelf with the other one has 67 report that it remain available in legal the other is 85% that it not i mean, there is a political solution. >> oh, yeah. and this is really the problem of this republican party, right, is that they want things that are wildly unpopular, and they even sort of know it, right, and that's why they go for whatever they can i think what's interesting about this gun issue is that you see republicans are going further for it, right. remember they're trying to get

constitutional carry where you can have concealed carry in any state, and there won't be any difference in any state, you can have the same carry in texas and new york we even saw this very conservative supreme court try to go after new york's more restrictive gun laws republicans are all in on more guns if we're a country that already has more guns than people, what will that look like if they get the majority, and i think ultimately they need to know this is a loser, just like choice, which they're seeing again and again as they lose elections. >> i'm with you on struggling to find any ray of hope, so stop me if this isn't true sounds like you take republicans in the 15% on guns i say this all the time because i've try today adopt a puppy you can't adopt a puppy without a home visit, a credit check, five references. you can go get a gun between

classes in many states what do we do and how do we make sure that all americans, regardless of their past party allegiances know that republicans are with the 15% on guns and with the super minority on abortion, and even if you have other issues you care about, this is an emergency? >> well, i'm totally with you that the only way this is going to change is when republicans realize they can't be elected and have these extreme positions. i guess the piece that does make me somewhat optimistic is if you look at what's happening, where we do have the chance to have these issues on the ballot, particularly as we know the recent wisconsin supreme court racing with all the midterm elections, every single ballot initiative on abortion, these were all -- even in the reddest states, we were successful and so -- but i also agree that the republicans seem to be just doubling down because of course we saw what ron desantis has

just done in florida so clearly the water hasn't gotten hot enough yet, but i do think this is the number one task ahead of us is making clear to people what's happening in america and who did it to them it has been the republican party that has not only made it their mission to end access to safe and legal abortion, but to also allow guns everywhere. we have to i think repeat this story and make it clear because that's how political change is going to happen. >> and just -- you know, for you, david jolly, as if we needed more proof that it isn't actually rooted in crime statistics and facts, i have this for you fox news significantly decreased its to volume of violent crime coverage in the midterms the network averaged 141 weekday violent crime segments per week from labor day until the friday before the election, before people voted

in the week of the midterms, fox aired one weekday violent crime segment, a decrease of 50% compared to election day, and they're like, yeah, never mind but remember the caravan story trump's asinine roosevelt room i mean, it's what they do over and over again we now know thanks to dmin onthat it's a programming strategy, but even to their viewers, it is not representative of where the news and the story really is. it's programmed for electoral purposes. >> fox news and today's republicans are bad faith actors on gun violence prevention, and they should be written off as such optimism at times can be hard to come by, though we have seen some incremental progress on policies actually passing state house and in congress as well. where optimism is hard to come by, the fight is not

it is easy to summon the anger and the fight and the courage to try to correct america's course on the issue of gun violence, and that means defeating every single republican candidate from your mayor to the school board to your county commissioner to the state legislature to the governor to the state representative to members of the congress and senate, defeat them put democrats in power to address this secondly, crush the gun culture in america humiliate it, shame it, make the advocate of permitless carry, shame them make them feel the culture war come down upon themself in '24 elections and years after. >> sign me up. no one's going anywhere. when we come back, republicans are rmp ramping up their assault on the lbgtq community. there are several developments to tell you about at the state and federal level that have critics warning will do real harm to real children, gay and

trans kids plus, local officials in oklahoma were caught on tape saying extremely racist and violent things, even talking about assassinating reporters. one of those officials has now resigned, but three others are still on the job as outrage continues to grow. and the u.s. supreme court could pave the way for future administrations to ban all access to abortion care. it might not end there we're just hours away from a major decision that will impact millions and millions and millions of us deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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in my neck of the woods in northern michigan people came around on gay rights, same-sex marriage, marriage equality, but still might have some questions around transamericans. part of having that conversation for me is saying if you have a lot of questions but not a lot of answers, you need to start listening. me as a gay man, i don't know what it is like to be a transamerican. >> of course it's an identity i don't either. >> i'm part of an acronym. but that didn't mean i can sit here and say i know what the transcommunity is going through. i can use my platform and listen >> so powerful in other words, though, basic human decency, sound advice, easy to follow, going entirely ignored within the republican party east to west, top to bottom today, the house passed an amendment to title nine that would ban transgender women and

girls from competing in school athletics. i guess the good news is this, the bill has a near zero chance of passing in the senate president biden said he would veto any such legislation if it reached his desk of course, those do not extend to legislations passed in the states in lorida, for instance, the board of education yesterday voted to expand the so-called don't say gay bill meaning classroom orientation on sexual orientation and identity is now prohibited through 12th grade unless required by state standards, which it is not soon, desantis will consider and presumably pass more anti-lbgtq legislation, bills that passed florida state house having to do with affirmative care, and

bathrooms. aisha mills, everyone is still here let me read this i read this and i haven't been able to forget it from slate my son is trans, we live in texas. reese is a multigeneration texan. seems likely that soon he will be the first member of his family to grow up outside texas. if people don't agree with the medical decisions we have made on our son's behalf, that's fine people don't have to agree with us or like us or want to associate with us, but they have no right to force us to flee the state. what i'm also at some weird state of if they can just for the love of god just please back off an inch. give us just one ounce of grace or understands or compassion, i would let it all go. no harm, no foul, i promise. let us live our queue yet doorky short lives in peace maybe some day, i'll stop being

sad about what humans do to each other. how did we get here that a mom with a trans son just wants someone to find the grace to just back up >> nicole, how did we get here you know, i hate to report that we never actually left here. we are in a society that by design has snamed people who wer different, who frankly by the definition of different didn't fit into some white supremacist and sexualist idea of what normal is supposed to be we've always done this we did it to black people, immigrants, and continue to do it to folks. as a black woman who also happens to be a lesbian, i have been fighting this fight for 20

years now, and the opposition is the same a bunch of hate-filled people who think they have the right to determine whose lives matter at the end of the day is what this is about and it is not new what continues to be disheartening and sad is the way they are going after children, young people, who are at the beginning of their lives of self discovery and understanding who they are and wanting to have meaning with their lives. the fact that they are assaulting and attacking young people is something that i don't care what you believe, what religion you are, whether you need to understand or seek more learning or are compassionate, you should be in a place as an american where you think it is just vile to try to legislate in a way that does young people harm, and that's what this is. >> i take your point that we never left here, we've always been here. maybe it is sort of the front and center of attacking these families that feels so jarring, and i just want to share one

more thing with you. the trevor project said by the end of last year that 45% of lbgtq youth seriously considered attempting suicide in the last year i mean, kids are not in bubbles, and kids for better or for worse with access to screens and an awareness of the political climate, they see what is being said about them and their community. i asked this question, you know, what do we do just to signal to these families we got your back. i mean, we may not know exactly what you're going through, but we see you, we think what they're doing is horrible, and we got you where do we have that conversation >> well, we have that conversation everywhere, nicole. the thing that i want people to really understand is that you got into a conversation about suicide here this is about safety when you say don't say gay in

florida's schools at all, don't discuss transpeople, what you're doing is saying that young people have no safe space to come and talk about who they are, to seek counseling, support, community, and help and that is why we are losing so many lives what the rest of us have an obligation and responsibility to do is hold space wherever we can, even if it's through our hearts and compassion. making sure families know while this witch hunt might be going down among republicans and legislative offices, that the rest of us in society do care about common humanity and these young people i think we can't express and exude enough neighborly communal love a society where people feel safe to knock on the door of a neighbor i think what we should all be doing when wl it comes to

families supporting their families and transgender youth or anybody that's our neighbor, we should have some sense of compassion and caring and willingness to hold people in what we have in common. >> i keep coming back to the hypocrisy, the rank stench of hypocrisy around a party that as operationalized hate, particularly towards the trans community while banning books books. >> even though we were told when it was first introduced that it would absolutely not be expanded and this was just to protect children is that it really is putting sort of -- it's a move against science too. >> it's a move against teachers. i mean, where does it leave -- i mean, it's -- i can't comprehend it. >> imagine a world where you can't teach greek philosophers

because you can't talk about homo sexuality what it does is it -- it's going aftereducation and i think that what's really scary about it is with all these things, you keep seeing the republican party going towards religion and away from education, towards religion and away from science. it's very dangerous. i also think they are targeting the vulnerable, which is from that kind of playbook, the really bad, scary playbook, the one we saw in the '30s, targeting the vulnerable because that's an easy target. >> i guess what i worry about, the problem is staying silent because you think it isn't about you. the republicans operationalizing operations against the transcommunity is about all of us because when they're done with them, they'll come for you. >> that's right, nicole. i have been thinking a lot too about in my lifetime, the republican party has been so adept at talking about culture war and social issues, and for

so long, the democratic party shied away from that and tried to take a different approach i think one of the political lessons here is that all americans need to be talking, getting right in there, and defending, whether it's a book or somebody aels's son or daughter who happens to be transgender, no, these are our children, this is our shared history, we're not going to back down, we're not going to be afraid to have these fights. you want to talk about culture war issues, that's fine. let's talk about how i want to see my kids safe at school not worried about being shot or his teacher being shot because you don't want to do anything about guns i think there's a political strategy here that needs to shift. i would love to see democrats and frankly anybody of any political party who's willing to engage on those issues, and i also think we have to build coalitions i mean, because otherwise, the

far right wing is going to just pick us off group by group. >> and there are so many fewer of them. and i can't end this conversation, david jolly, without making a political point about ron desantis his campaign sucks what happened? what's wrong with him? i think it's not unrelated from this conversation. if you are losing if tmaga guys, you're trump without trump what do you do if you're desantis get meaner i think that's part of this, his political flop. >> and i think it's okay for those of us watching him across the country, we get to judge our candidates and put moral judgment on our leaders. he is someone who envisions florida to be white, and crush culture of thought, diversity, and identity it is absolutely discriminatory towards communities, and in this

case, the transcommunity with real-life implications i can add some color to that passage you read about reese from texas there's a model pattern moving through states i got a call from a grandfather of a trans-teen, an old colleague of mine who said, i'm desperate. i'm calling anybody who touches politics his grand son was transitioning, was now undergoing transition therapies and was in a great place and is about to be valedictorian at his high school, and he said, the problem with this model statute that's passing is the doctor can no longer provide the pharmaceuticals, and if so, the doctor goes to jail. even if we get the pharmaceuticals from out of state, if his parents allow him to take the pharmaceuticals, the state will take the child away from the parents they're suggesting that ron

desantis nose better than that trans-teen's mom how dare he think that he can sit in the place of that mother who's been through a teen child of suicidal ideals that's the story of reese in texas, that's the story of this teen in florida. that's the story of teens across the country. it make take us a generation to achieve equity, but today, you can identify the good-faith actors and those relying on discriminatory behaviors for political gain ron desantis is in that ladder camp, we know it and we've seen it and we can judge it today. >> you've taken my berth away and words. i guess i started by saying how can we stand with them please tell them the floor is theirs if your friend who's a grandfather or the young man's mom ever wants to come chat with us we can all have that

conversation thank you for sharing that no one's going anywhere. the resignation of one of the officials caught on tape in oklahoma making violent and racist remarks the latest developments in that story after a quick break. don't go anywhere. (vo) verizon small business days are coming. april 27th through may 3rd. now is the time to partner with our experts. get started today with verizon business. it's your business. it's your verizon. mara, are you sure you don't want -to go bowling with us tonight? -yeah. no. there's my little marzipan! [ laughs ] oh, my daughter gives the best hugs! we're just passing through on our way to the jazz jamboree. [ imitates trumpet playing ] and we wanted to thank america's number-one motorcycle insurer

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mark jennings delivered a handwritten resignation letter to governor kevin stitt two days after the governor called for their resignation. these stories are shocking, horrific, disturbing, and nbc cannot verify their authenticity, but it's important to hear this, it's important to hear what happened. >> i'm gonna tell you something, back in the day when i take a black [ bleep ] and whoop their [ bleep ], i take them on mud creek and hang them up with a dang rope, but you can't do that they got more rights than we got. >> investigator alicia manning and others have been suspended as of this hour by the oklahoma

sheriff's association after the story broke. that move does not remove them from their jobs, and none of the four officials on tape have responded to our question for comment. aisha, it's an important microchasm of how the press is the enemy, about how bringing racism out and making it part of your platform. donald trump saw good people on both sides of the kkk rally. these things all manifest, they seep, they seed our culture and politics this feels like a manifestation of some of that. >> absolutely, nicole. i appreciate you for constantly lifting this up. there is a nasty cancer in america that has never really gone away. i believe it's metastasizing, and certainly donald trump is the dude who made it cool to be a big got and be unapologetic

about that the fact that this person just resigned to me is such an eyeball. i have the question how on earth did he have this job everybody knows this person is racist everybody knows the ease with which these comments were being made, thinking they were being made in private, suggests that everybody who's ever had a conversation knew this should not be somebody wearing that badge and supposedly keeping the community safe so i think that we've got to all take a look at ourselves it's easy to just say, oh, well donald trump brought out all these ugly people, but these folks had jobs before donald trump did in the white house the question becomes why have they been allowed to. >> i was thinking about trump's first pardon it was this extrajudicial sheriff, i don't even want to call him law enforcement, i guess he is, who targeted minority communities there is an arch type on the

right that has been -- and again, the history of this is long, part of our country's ugly history. these people are popping up, and it is local journalism the local journalist is the most amazing part of the story. >> that's it for me too. i always think if you really want to see what happens if local journalism dies, go to ferguson, missouri in 2015 you peel back layer upon layer it didn't end with the police department, the courts, town council, et cetera unfortunately, that happens across america where you have places where officials aren't being held accountable so this worked this time thank god for local news i feel that way as well. but there is something we were talking about on the break that's really disturbing too that i can say with certainty as a black american that all of a sudden -- and i do pin this in

part of fox news and trump and trumpism, all of a sudden it's acceptable to say these things out loud again we can sit here and debate whether that's a better or worse thing. when it's okay culturally to be openly hateful and not just racist, srks enophobic, antitransgender, whatever, just hateful, that makes our country unsafe that makes our democracy weaker, and that's not the country we want to live in. that makes me sad because you know people are out there saying things as a black american, you know that but you hope they're not in office you hope they're not the people pulling you over or teaching your kid. >> right right. and i guess, david jolly, coming back to you for another serving of powerful soup, the parts of the story that make it a national story, it's all these things it's the microschism of

journalism and racism inside a law enforcement agency it's also about accountability this is going tof to be an investigation. we going to open up hearings and see how widespread the desire to go back to a time of lynching is inside the sheriff's department. i mean, there are a lot of people who haven't chimed in yet, and this feels like an important moment. >> it does because i think the most telling thing is this is one room where there was a tape recorder imagine the thousands of rooms that have not been recorded, and i think that is probably the pit in our stomach today is we know this language is used, we know there is hate in the hearts of americans across the country today and those in places of power, and i think the sickening part of this, the hard part of this is you like to think through your decades in life that you're participating in a

culture that's moving past these dark chapters of hate, that somehow we're moving toward greater common good and equity, but then we learn through these recordings that doesn't actually exist. the question becomes, wait a minute, am i just self isolated and self associating and choosing to associate with people who no longer subscribe to racism and zenophobia many still make policies that are abstract and discriminatory through color. >> thank you so much. when we come back, what to expect when the united states supreme court makes its much-anticipated and imminent ruling on the future of abortion health care and medical abortion that's next. when it comes to reducing sugar in your family's diet, the more choices, the better.

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we're watching the supreme court where at any moment the justices could rule on the case to revoke the fda approval of the most commonly used miscarriage management and abortion drug, mifepristone. so, so many ramifications. what are your thoughts right now? what are you watching? >> one i can't believe we're on

every week waiting for the supreme court to tell us what rights we have left as women, and it's incredible. obviously it's disturbing that we haven't already heard fum the court because this case should have never even been heard i mean this was so extreme that one judge in amarillo, texas, decided he had the power to rescind fda approval of a drug that's been approved for decades and that the ability of women everywhere to access this medicine not only for abortion care but also for miscarriage management is literally at risk. it's interesting because, you know, as we know when the dobbs decision came down it was said this was going to resolve everything because now this is just going to bea state matter, but, of course, that wasn't true because we're now looking at what is potentially just the beginning of a national abortion ban. the one thing, too, i want to mention from today i'm sure you saw it, but i

thought the editorial by the head of the american medical association was so important today saying we cannot live in a country where the whims of some judge determine the ability of patients and physicians to get medical care and provide medical care for people in america >> well, i mean i wonder two things for you, cecile, one what do you think the delay is on the supreme court? and two, aren't you just dismantling the fda, and what's to say republicans won't target hiv drugs and i guess republicans won't target viagra, but what's next if you dismantle the fda? >> i think it's the same thing we've seen with the republican party on so many things which is sort of creating fear and disbelief in government in our democratic systems but you're right this is a very slippery slope if a judge, a federal judge who has no medical training, no scientific training can decide he's going to take a drug off

the market, that's just the beginning. i can only hope that the reason we are waiting for the supreme court is that they are going to completely throw this case out as they should and say that this judge had no business making medical decisions for every woman in america but, you know, after the dobbs decision i think everything is in question, so like you and like everyone else waiting to see what happens tomorrow. >> yeah, i guess, cecile, we're still living in a country where this supreme court really has us wondering much of everything, alito's opinion, desantis' dissent. this is an activist hyperconservative judge in amarillo but his decision is being reviewed by an activist hyper-partisan supreme court >> and a hyper-partisan fifth

circuit. as you see even the fifth circuit's decision which supposedly was a moderate decision wasn't at all it puts restrictions on women that would be impossible for so many women to meet now saying that you have to go in person three times to a doctor, and as you know so many women in america now that their states have banned abortion have been relying on medication through the mail, mifepristone through the mail this would also end that and it's incredible to me that the republicans are relying on an 1873 law before birth control was even invented, an 1873 law to say that medication abortion cannot be sent through the mail. that's how far the republicans are willing to take us back. but, you know, this is very extreme. it is going to impact potentially 64 million women in america.

>> and everyone who loves them and depends on them. an unbelievably important story. we'll continue watching. thank you so much for being here at the table just keep you here every day monday through friday. quick break for us we'll be right back. i think i've got it! doggy-paddle! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (vo) verizon small business days are coming. april 27th through may 3rd. now is the time to partner with our experts. get started today with verizon business. it's your business. it's your verizon. when it comes to reducing sugar in your family's diet, the more choices, the better. that's why america's beverage companies are working together to deliver more great tasting options with less sugar or no sugar at all. in fact, today, nearly 60% of beverages sold contain zero sugar. different sizes? check. clear calorie labels? just check.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we're grateful "the beat "with ari melber starts right now >> it's happening, the hand-off we discussed on your show. i can ask you about so many things but i'm going to circle back to the ice cream which is