can take discovery and make ou emotions it is all coming together an it's gonna be a lot. he's had a parade of lawyers he's found a new one in florida, and some new ones in new york. he needs a constant stream o them to keep all thi litigation and all thi investigation going. and there's more to come for sure >> the trial you're referencing, a civil trial under the adul survivors act by e.j. carrol who brought the suit claiming he sexually assaulted her. and that factual matter, wha are the ex president of sexual assault of e.j. carol will b litigated in a civil trial, in new york, in the souther district starting next week. danya perry, thank you for you time tonight >> that's all in on this thursday good evening, alex >> good evening, chris

they said make a video for chris, make a video for us tenure anniversary it's just for, chris it's a little fun thing fo chris. and then, in my office and i see myself and my little video for chris on nationa television and i'm gonna say, had i known had i known i wouldn't hav left out the detail that not only had you played maria in the sound of music, but yo played all 17 von trap children, and that's why you'r a success story. >> they still talk about it to this day >> i'm glad everyone in americ knows. thank you my buddy >> thank you >> thanks to all of you fo joining us tonight this was how they introduced a bell in the house of representatives. >> for thousands of years in human history we've recognized as a species that there ar women and man. over the last several year there's been a perversion in our culture by the enemy, an

the left has completel embraced the lie to erase th lines of gender, and t convince you that there isn' really gender and that gende is fluid and can be whatever you want whenever you want. again, more lies >> there has been ou perversion and our culture b the academy, and the lef completely embrace the lie that was republican congressma greg steube yesterda introducing the first national bill to ban transgender kids from participating in sports using their preferred gender identity today, the republica controlled house o representatives passed tha bill with all republican voting yes, and all democrat voting now, complete party unity and taking the war o transgender americans ongoin national at that to some degree addition be surprising to anyone that' been paying attention to wha republicans have been doing at the state level. across the, country republican have basically given up on the idea of small government

instead they now aim to expand the power of the state t coarsely reshape society i their preferred mode in kentucky, republica lawmakers banned the teachin of sex ed. any discussion of puberty at all until sixth grade. and tennessee, republica lawmakers passed a bill this week that would punish boo publishers who sell any book t a school library that tennesse republicans deemed to be obscene. today, the texas state senat passed a bill that would force every public school in the state to prominently display the ten commandments and every classroom. in iowa, a group of republican have introduced a bill t outlaw marriage equality despite the supreme cour ruling that made it the law of the land in all 50 states. that's precisely those kinds o bills that are intended for th conservative majority in the supreme court. should they decide they want t reverse that landmark decision in idaho, the governor signe the nations force abortion

trafficking law. not only is illegal to get a abortion in idaho. but driving a minor across state lines to obtain an abortion in a state where it i legal, doing that can land you up to five years in prison also in idaho, conservativ lawmakers have introduce legislation to ban all mrn vaccines, like the ones that were used to fight covid the sponsor of that bell did recently update that legislation. striking a provision that woul have bad mrna vaccines for all mammals. which must make house cats happy, i don't know. republicans are also trying to expand the power of the stat over other local governmen officials. look down in georgia, that's where republicans have advance a bill that would allow stat officials to remove loca prosecutors that they don' like the job that prosecutor doing. and that means if governor kem signed this law, it would allo governors to remove fulton county attorney, fani willis who is currently investigating

donald trump from his effort to overturn the 2020 election. in texas, republicans cast a similar measure that would den prosecutors the power to decid which cases they've even - allow state republicans to force prosecutions on things like abortion, voter fraud even if the local prosecutor don't think the case is wort bringing now none of these proposals ar broadly popular with the american people but republican are pushing them anyway. and they're giving themselve new powers to expand, an cement minority role in th process. the question now is how do americans fight back against a tyrannical minority, how t citizen fight creeping authoritarianism that's taking over the states? one of the most prominen examples of someone pushin back against a reactionary agenda as michigan state senator, mallory mcmorrow earn one year ago yesterday mcmorrow became a househol name when she delivered this rebuke to republicans in her state.

>> i didn't expect to wake u yesterday to the news th senator from the 22nd district had overnight, accused me by name of grooming, an sexualizing children in an email fund for herself so, i sat on it for a whil wondering why me, and then i realized because i am th biggest threat to euro hollow, hateful scheme you can't claim that you are targeting marginalized kids in the name of quote, parenta rights if another parent is standin up to say, no. >> can democrats across th country take a similar stanc against creeping authoritarianism how do they overcome the structural advantages that allowed republicans to rul from the minority. i have just the person to ask. joining us now is democratic michigan state senator, mallor mcmorrow she's also the senate majority --

state senator mcmorrow, than you for joining us tonight you're quite the person to tal to on this topic i guess i first start with, th big question i think a lot o people are asking right. now which is it a fundamenta flaw in our democracy that u minority is able to rule lik this is an exercise their powe and what feels like a very ant democratic fashion >> absolutely. as you see this creeping because so many of our state are so badly gerrymandered that's exactly what happened t michigan because of gerrymandering, tha allows the republican party to regain control and remain in control they continue to flank further, and further to th right extreme. it works its way all the way t the federal government >> i wonder though some of thi is coming in part legislator and part of its republican - and judges having evermore powers when they run int legislature. when we're talking about abortion for example the arguments over mifepristone, some of this is fueled by what

we're told is a grassroots minority that is organized angry on topic of quote unquote, parental rights. does it surprise you, settin aside the gerrymandering question, that the republica party which knows needs to actually do some winning here. it's embracing topics that jus don't have national support. at some, point they do need to win something legitimately and in order to do so, don't they need to adopt some kind o policy that has some kind of broad popularity >> if you watch the 2022 results here in michigan michigan has had a blu trifecta state, the first time in 40 years. because we've set such - a rebuke to this brand o republican politics. where -- governor ran her entir campaign on anti-trans legislation. despite the fact that only two kids in a state of 10 millio people a year of life for th

waiver to play on a sports tea that matches their gende identity the republican party themselve put out a report following the 2022 election that noted tha the round more ads about trans women in sports and they did about inflation. and if that's not an indicatio coming from inside the house that there is a problem, i don't know what it is. but the lesson they seem t have taken away, from th results in places like michigan is not to come back to where a majority of people are it's to double and triple down on crazy we need to take the bail off reveal it for what it is, an point out that it's just ridiculous and it's not solvin anybody's real problems. >> what is it about the tran kidding, you pointed out the vanishing, there is no evidenc really that this is somethin that americans broadly are grappling with, this idea of trans child athletes in sports what is it about that issu that so fixated animates the republican party >> because it's fear, if you

think just the number the fact that there's two kids in a state of 10 million people who go through this process. it means that it's very likely that a majority of people have never met a trans person at least that they know of and if you look at the instances from gun violence over the weekend where we saw a 85-year-old man fire a gun at kid who knocked on his door an is already admitted. it's because he was paranoid it's because of the nra, it' because he was watching fo news and believes then everybody is out to get him, and it's legislating, an governing by fear, it's really easy to fear something that yo don't understand and it's just classi scapegoating >> do you think the argument i agree with you, fear is so central to all this. do you think that concept of fear, fearmongering extends to the abortion question. we are seems to be a number of crosscurrents there.

there's a very, a very engaged hard-core anti choice movement that's in a large part powerin this against what is political reality. the political rally the go faces on this topic. but as a sort of organizin factor, is fear part of it i it massaging-y a lot about people having bodily autonom scares the republicans >> all of these things intersect. we believe it or not had a vot here in michigan state senat to repeal a bad on couples living together before they ge married. michigan is currently one of only two states that has thi ban on the books and five or six republican voted to keep the law on the books. in the year 2023, it's absolutely madness what we saw with the jobs, onc the dobbs decision came down you can no longer have thi conversation in extremes previously, there had been a

backstop so republicans can us rhetoric that was extrem because they knew that there was a protection but once jobs came down that protection went away what we saw here in michigan is a republican areas democratic areas, rural area -- women were having real conversations about all of the many ways that a pregnancy can go wrong that your birth control ca fail and you can no longer just message based on fear. this was suddenly real, and michigan we had abortion ban that were about to go into effect if we didn't act. republicans are on the losin side of this issue and the same is true for lgbtq issues, once we reveal the reality, and we connected to the fact that they're just distracting again from running anti-trans ads than they did inflation. we need to show people tha this is to make you so angry hateful, and fearful about something you may never lived,

through our experience, that you don't even notice that the don't care about you either. >> i do think that there i some parts of our democracy, there's institutions tha really lend themselves t minority tyranny if you. well the supreme court, th electoral college, the way tha sparsely cop - over represented in ou electoral system it seems as though the lower courts especially are really really important in this moment in terms of fighting off thi kind of creeping authoritarianism and i wonder if you think that the democrats are aggressive enough, if they're doing enough, i'll ask you there's a hug debate about diane feinstein the senator that's ill right now. and the complications that illness has given risen to i terms of democrats moving jo biden's nominees through the courts do you have a position on that do you think generally

democrats are being aggressive enough given the state o affairs with the republica party? >> i think we're finally starting to learn how to b more aggressive. and i say that watching ho much energy and awareness ther was about the wisconsin suprem court race about the awareness of what' happening in tennessee, an that state legislature what's happening in nebraska and i think it took too long the democrats looked about the shiny new thing on, top who is the one person that was gonn be our new hope. we saw how much mone democratic donors donated to amy mcgrath, $96 million to try and defeat mitc mcconnell, when we wer ignoring everything else that's changing, we need t keep going and recognize tha it's the entire infrastructure the local courts, the stat legislature, it's your state supreme court, all the way o up if dobson anything, it showe how important the states are that states are the fron lines. and we need to keep ou attention here and not get

distracted by ron desantis and donald trump and whatever else is happening at the top that's just gonna be absolute madness for the next year. >> we're keeping an eye on wha rhonda scent this is doing i the state of florida although, you know he's national player. there is a lot happening on th ground we appreciate your tim democratic state senator mallory mcmorrow thank you so much for your wisdom in your thoughts this evening. >> thank you >> we have lots more coming up including my fellow my pillo ceo lindell -- 2020 conspiracy theories wrong to challenge them to prove a conspiracy theory wrong. and someone finally dead but first, it's not just democrats that florida governo ron desantis is alienating wit its cultural warfare we'll tell you who else is alienating coming up next. ♪ ♪ ♪ heading on a family trip? nah, sorry son, prices are crazy, [son deflates]

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down i can promise you this, yo ain't seen nothing yet thank you all. god bless you. >> you ain't seen nothing at that was governor ron desantis seven weeks ago, ambitiously quoting back men turne overdrive as the governor laid out his legislation priorities

during a state remarks you ain't seen nothing yet, -- and yet, many of the lawmakers who are in that audience see to be saying, actually, we'v seen enough. that's because since the start of accession, the florid legislator has been moving i breakneck speed in governo desantis's agenda. pushing through very extreme staff. like a bill last week that ban abortion after six weeks o pregnancy. and a bill today that allows a jury to recommend the deat penalty without reaching a unanimous vote that kind of stuff the big problem for governor desantis is the same peopl that he's depending on to ge the spells to his desk, thos same people are kind of over it here's a headline from politic today, deeply frustrated florida legislators worn out b desantis they report part of the acts has been sparked by a grinding session where legislators have pushed through bill after bell and shoot up hours o contentious debate

that's considered integral t desantis is expected presidential campaign. many republicans that they support many of desantis's priorities, but i've seen thei own priority bills get we late slow down to help them the, at one house republican recently told former legislato that he was ready to resign ou of frustration over how th session one was going. another republican legislato said, we're not the party of council conjure, we can't keep doing this tit-for-tat joining us now is shan goldmacher, national political reporter for the new york times, and brandon, but former to aide to republican speaker paul ryan and -- msnbc political analyst. thank you jets, for both being here brandon, let me start with you and how you see rhonda santa's movement over the last two months the ambition is quite obvious, whether it will be met wha success seems at this point to be an open question. >> clearly, he's bought into his own hype there are quotes of him talk about how he's the new hot

thing. it's a weird for someone to sa about themselves >> does he say that rawness -- does he actually put himself i the first person >> ron desantis is a interesting character. i was around him a little bi in the house what we've seen from an earl reporting, what i've see personally is that he does not connect very well with people. with their scoffing at that, why does that matter, who care about. that but if you want to be a successful presidentia candidate, you need to mak people feel, things and what we're seeing is the people tha seem to know him best, the people who are quite sure that there is a whole lot there you've seen recently a bunch o house republicans from florida including the one wh represents the seat, - they're now endorsing donald trump. that tells you that they'v seen, they've been around him, they don't think he hasn't, an a lot of it's because he's jus not as gauging and personable. they don't give you that feeling, that energy tha there's something special. >> he's also working them to the bone it sounds like. the fact that the legislatur is grinding through thes bells.

which are politically toxic on a national level at the expens of their own priority. or even their own ideology privately. how a lot of them are speaking off the record here. that's telling, isn't it i terms of executive management. is that an issue for desanti as a governor? >> i think the unhappiness tha exist in tallahassee is not long term problem from lon distance around desantis it's the policies pushing that every's questions, the abortio ban i think is at the top of the list he's framed as running for president as the on -- donald trump has lost, h oversaw losses in 2018, 2019 and 2020, and 2020, won in 2022, he talks about a cultura losing a lot of republican senate maybe ron desantis is ou person, but he's come out on the far-right nationally on top issue for the country. and it's really underminin that case. even among some of the donor were saying, look, there's concerns that you're taking position during the session -- that's gonna help you may be i the primary. but it won't help you in the

general election >> the abortion thing is a mystery to me. he goes forward for ten sign that, we made a point, thi time step on his announcemen is like 11:07 pm this is not something that he' signing on fox news as he ha with previous bills. why do it, what is, he's a strategist, he knows that this is gonna hurt him. why are you signing a bill tha you can't even talk abou publicly >> there's two stages to the election there's primary, general, an first he's gonna run the primary. and, look abortion is an issue even though donald - appointed the justice to the supreme court -- he hasn't been outspoken o the. issue privately, he's expresse some misgivings about wher this is going. and so for desantis this is an opportunity to potentially try to appeal to one of the most important -- event jellicoe even though he's not going out how that prince -- in a general election. he's trying to appeal to these people privately saying, if you have issues he' rather have. it >> kind of follow up on that,

brendan, because, yes i get th evangelicals are important blo in terms of winning over conservative majority. but so are women, and so for the phantom soccer moms that don't support this the numbers among republican on the question of reproductiv freedom are not that mysterious sure, evangelicals would like full outright ban. but the vast majority of republicans do not want. this so, why do it >> he's falling into the tra that a lot of politicians ar trying to do, have it both ways he wants to make sure that h gets the evangelicals, interchange, 20 can't afford t lose anybody right now you need to remember, he's losing by 20, 30 points right. now, so he can't afford to write off anybody. it's become a place in republican party were six-week ban, that's the new norm the new. standard if you aren't, ther these to be 15, weeks and that was a vulnerability for him. he feels like he has to do it. he needs to get to the primary the general election but here's the problem, if you're - you need to do things that are electable. and the other problem, shane's

written about, this i don' know that voters actually vote based on electability. they vote for people to make them feel something, get excited. in doctor donald trump get them excited -- so, i guess he thinks passing bunch of conservative things through the house and privatel communicating that to people i how you get it done. but right, now he doesn't seem to have a line of attack o donald trump that's one of his bigges problems >> to the point -- he actually has, shane cnn had reporting abou how the trump camps an desantis counts were lining up some of the endorsement. and it's a study of contrast cnn reports, if the governor wants an endorsement, he shoul be picking up the phone an calling directly instead o having an aide doing the reach out. a source close to a hous member said. you know calls for the trump endorsement, trump himself that's how trump is landing al of this stuff. back could be something that desantis could switch gears. but it sounds like he has zero aptitude for actually the key part of politics which is even more important

than winning over th evangelicals and getting through th primary. it's showing people that you know how to be a politician, that you know to sell your message in yourself. and he doesn't seem to hav that genetic code if you will. >> one of the challenges tha he faces, trump is in this race, and ron desantis isn't eve technically a candidate yet. he made the decision to us this session in tallahassee to build a policy portfolio to tr to run on. and instead, he's watching i donald trump's trying to pic off one by one all the members of the delegation, by having i up - come from meetings, in conversations and bring in the man he can't call them and say i need your endorsement. because he's not telling peopl he's gonna write for president officially out he's at a structural disadvantage and having thes conversations. these folks need to get ahea of him and stamina back your campaign even though - it's a tough sell. >> why hasn't he announced she's running. what's the point do you have any intel on that? >> what they've said is that h wants to get through thi session. he wants to focus on his job

and that's one of the strength that he has. i want to stay confidently, i' focused on my state, when that stuff stops slipping away, thi criticism recently for not being there when they wa flooding in the state, there's some chunks in the armor - strong leader in my state. that's a whole mother problem. so, he wants to maintain focus on the - all that stuff before he runs >> pass the mos conservative legislation can that's not particularly proble -- that are passing the legislation. and then use that credential to say, here we go, ro desantis 2024. i'm not in the business of predictions, shane, but this i starting to smack a little bit of jab with the explanatio point. >> let me give you the silve lining version, which is at on point a couple months ag people were looking as a two man race, with two cloe fron runners. i don't think it was a tough sell that was ever a reality donald trump is the former president, he remains the most popular republican in th country. and so for desantis th struggles he's having,

resetting expectations where h can grow - which is later this fall the upside for him i potentially that he's goin down at the right moment in th race >> that's generous, brando we're talking about creeping authoritarianism we talk about the ways in whic trump or presents and -- not just for the party, but th country. i wonder if this is the true legacy, ron desantis sent away represents the legacy of trump that all republicans after trump are going to be in thi mold of conservative prizefighters, tammy you all you ain't seen nothing yet the machismo, i don't care wha the national polls say i'm here to get our stuff done >> this is been our party for long time. we care about fighting even if you lose, we don't car what the issue is, as long a you're a fighter that's what people what we saw in the house o representatives. there was all kinds of facts but we are seeing fighting, an donald trump saw that he was the perfect person for a and, yes now everybody needs t be - a matter is clear enemies ar

as much as - >> that's the point, isn't it i would say it's differen than just a, fighter it's fighter fighting for something that is absolutely distasteful to a fast number of ne americans. and that's kind of the plane >> it brings us back to th implore-able, still are concern -- badge of honor they love the conflict, they love the fight and if you're standing for those people who received as being attacked by the elites -- >> or the majority, really this is a group of people wh don't represent the country. and you're fighting for them a appointed pride, on the fringe as the prizefighter is the quote unquote, winning position, i don't get it i'm just gonna keep saying it, i don't get. you guys are gonna come back and explain it to be maybe sometime or never. shane will mac, or brandon back, thank you for your time. when we come, back another member of team trump talks t fellow terrell prosecutors a someone who likely has a lot t say. and the big lie finally gets t catch up to -- pillow magnet mike lindell that's next.

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>> in the summer after the 202 election, pillow company ceo and conspiracy theory as mik lindell, claimed the ad hard verifiable prove that not only was the election stolen, but that it was somehow china that

stole it he claimed he had the computer data to back all that up mike lindell, was so confident in his claim he dared anyone t look at the data prove i'm wrong. he offered an incredibly specific and gigantic prize to anybody who could. >> 5 million dollar prize fo anybody that can prove the election data that i have fo the 2020 election is false $5 million will be all of thes guys, the cyber guys, i don' care if it's media, they can dig into all this data if they can prove that it's no valid data from the 2020 election, i'm putting my money where my mouth was and $5 million, why don't yo prove it there so you can wi $5 million >> not only was mr. lindell' data not proof of some chinese hacking plot, it turns out i wasn't even 2020 election data it was just random packets o code, ip addresses, and string

of random numbers. now mr. lindell has to pay $ million. he needs to put his money wher the mouth. us as he put it turns out cyber forensi expert, robert zeidman, prov mr. lindell. wrongs ayman won the contest and now a panel from the american arbitration association has ordered mr lindell, to pay up he has 30 days to cough up the $5 million now mike lindell told nbc news this ruling was a horrible wrong decision and that it's all going to end up in court. even if mr. lindell ends up on the hook, it's unclear how man -- pocketbook of someone wh literally plasters my pillow ads on fox airwaves all day, every day. but it is notable, because it' accountability, this is th first instance we're seeing of mike lindell, finally facing accountability for his role in pushing the big lie. and it may not be the last tim

either on tuesday, fox news settled a defamation case with the dominion voting system corporation for a whopping 787 point $5 million 785 point $5 million for their role in pushing the big lie. and that probably isn't crushing amount of money for a corporation the size of fo news but i will bet you, the number daunting to someone like mik lindell. not only is mr. lindell also being sued for defamation by dominion, for 1.3 billio dollars. he's also being sued b definition by another voting tech company, smartmatic, fo an undisclosed but likel equally large amount of money. for years now, a consolation o conservatives, and conservativ media outlets in the country have not best eluded and i or sly but neither cased, - of the 2020 election it seems accountability may be

finally catching up to them. must be hard to sleep at night i hope mr. lindell has a great pillow still to come, republicans i tennessee kick to blac democrats out of the state house, at least two of the mor sitting on a very big, a explosive secret that secret came out today we'll tell you all about it. also, a member of donald trump's inner circle talk toda to the special counsel investigating the former president. and this guy was in a position to know a lot. much more coming up next

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>> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ >> at this point in time you'r probably familiar with the least a few of donald trump' lawyers, coren, christina bobb joe tacopina, rudy giuliani, all of them notorious in their own right. but there's also one lawyer in particular who is considered t be the manager of the trum lawyers. the handler, the ceo of trump' legal team if you well his name is boris epshteyn, an his job is to oversee both the civil and criminal lawyers who are defending trump's variou investigations epshteyn has been a member o trump's inner circle for a while now. dating back to the 201 campaign he worked in the trump white house, he serves as a senior adviser to the 2024 campaign because of mr. epshteyn, dua role he's considered to have the most insight into decision

made by trump in two key federal investigations the, first the inquiry t trump's attempt to overturn th results of the 2020 election and the sack, and th mar-a-lago documents probe as a lawyer, senior counsel, the ceo of the trump legal team, epshteyn is of great interes special counsel jack smith especially because epshtey himself is entangled in both those investigations back in 2020, epshteyn helpe rudy giuliani spearhead th fake electors plot to help trump hold on to power and he confirmed that much t my colleague, harry melber >> there's been reports abou the attempts to seat fraudulen electors is that something you ever worked on or what support fo example in michigan? >> yes, i was part of th process to make sure they were alternate electors for when as we, hope the challenges to the seeded electors will be heard, and successful >> epshteyn played a key rol in the production of a statement for federa investigators, a statement

signed by trump lawyer christina bobb last summer that said to the best of mis bob's knowledge, donald trum did not have any classifie documents left in his position down at mar-a-lago that statement turned out to b false. two months after miss bo signed the compliment. the fbi found another 100 or s highly up -- on the premises miss bob later told the lawyers that it was boris epshteyn, that putter in contact with evan corcoran who was the trump lawyer tha drafted the statement in the first place. now all of this is extremely relevant because today mr. epshteyn, was reportedly interviewed by special counsel prosecutors. we don't know what they talk t mr. epshteyn, about we don't know if he faces any legal jeopardy of his own. in any of these cases. but we do know that he had the option to say no to reject the invitation to the inner to b interviewed. so, why didn't they? joining us now is joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama and the co-host of the sisters

in law podcast joyce, it's a thrill to see yo in person. thank you for joining me tonight. >> it's always so nice to be here with you. >> first, let's start, it seem as though both sides would lik boris epshteyn, to calm an chat on the one, hand the prosecutors have a lot to talk to him about but what is epshteyn stand t gain here? >> what he stands to gain, i what he won't get, a subpoena. and i think the hope perhaps i that he can go on and spea voluntarily, and that's the en of it >> you think it's about avoiding the inevitabl subpoena and not for example casing the joint as they say. getting a read into what exactly federal prosecutor aren't student >> it's fair to say. look, he's represented by very sophisticated council. one of the lawyers that he represents trump, i'm sure tha they like to get as much information as they can get. about where the focus of the special counsel currently has. >> do you think, he'

remarkably intertwined on a lo of trump business but as i pertains to mar-a-lago and the fake electors, plot which do you think is potentially the more urgent line of questioning, if you're a prosecutor i talking to boris epshteyn? >> remarkably intertwined is exactly right. he's there in 2016, he's there today, today's with th campaign he's overseen lawyers, and the interesting thing prosecutor are always looking, flores but they don't know. but given the incredibly radical host of connections, there's still this blaring point that prosecutors are focused on how did a false statement ge made to doj, that's th obstruction, that -- >> that's part of a. >> it is at the important thin as,if this is just a cas about possession of classified documents. there's probably not a prosecution. it's the obstruction tha elevates it. and doris epshteyn is so central to that.

we don't know for expensive -- christina bobb said about he interactions with him are evan corcoran or flying blind when we try to second guess prosecutors but it's very clear somethin the prosecutors are very interested in there. >> i think for a while, we'v been looking at the tear o witness that the special prosecutor's been talking to and wants the specia prosecutor is able to pierce attorney-client privilege in terms of the conversatio between donald trump and eva corcoran, -- a lot of folks, said thi investigation is nearing its conclusion, this is the gu that knows everything and as i turns out actually the guy behind the guy, in mar-a-lag is really boris epshteyn he's really, he's the center o the spiders web if you will. >> he is, what you want to d is fill all the way to the top you want to find the perso who's the most culpable. perhaps there is a suggestio that that's donald trump, it certainly seems to be wher this is headed something that could happen an

we just don't know we don't know if prosecutors have a strong case on epstein, but if it's a strong case, it' possible they sat him down and said, this is your moment, d you want to be defendant or do you want to be a witness >> ouch, that's a tough, we -- advisor in trump land. do you think his visit shall w say today indicates anything with the timing and th mar-a-lago investigation if in fact that's what he's bein held in? for >> i think it doesn't, w don't know exactly wha happened in this as. that was this productive, is i another roadblock for th special counsel. they do look like they're near the end, but that end stag could take a while depending o how it plays out >> what we know is tha epshteyn is offering his advice i think a lot of these lawyers who are also maybe witnesses still have these daily, legall meetings with trump on the offer council, advice, i'm not a lawyer but that seems to m to be a very suspect dual role

to play. to be counsel and witness in a ongoing investigation? >> it's perplexing where there is a clear line, you cannot be a codefendant. you cannot be a target you certainly cannot be cooperating witness. -- this very nebulous status of possibly being a witness, an being a lawyer is something is if you're at the law form, it probably make your malpractice carrier nervous. there might be some folk ultimately have to sto representing - but it's trump, it's ver interesting that in addition t being the most fortunate defendant i've ever seen in terms of people not being willing to cooperate against time, these lawyers who he's here with, here at the end o the world, they're very loya to him >> i would imagine, it exposes trump. if he's talking to potential witnesses, he condemned th guilty of tampering with witness testimony. which is another form of obstruction, right >> there are a lot of things w just don't know here

there's always been th suspicion that there is witnes tampering going on, it's something that trump stand i the past, it's possible that it's happening here, the interesting thing to me is w don't really know what jac smith's case look, he seem focused, it looks like he has case and he's very focused on the lawyers, the lawyers, th lawyers. joyce vance, it's a pleasure t see you. thank you for your wisdom this evening. >> thank you >> we have one more stor for you tonight, about what on republican politician in tennessee got away with, until the media caught up with him that, is coming up next. ♪ ♪ ♪ [son deflates] awh, use priceline. they have package deals no one else has. [son inflates] we can do it! ♪go to your happy price♪ ♪priceline♪

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to democrats in the tennesse state house were expelled from office for participating in gun safety protest at th capitol? republicans were deepl offended saying the tw democrats violated the rules o decorum. the vice chair of the hous republican caucus went out o his way to say that such a offense would be considere contempt of court if the house floor wasn't fact -- fast forward to today, when local television investigative reporter, phil williams of the local cbs station. phil williams is the first t reveal that the same vice chair, republican scotty campbell, wa found guilty by an ethic subcommittee, violating hous rules against harassment and discrimination in th workplace.

according to the local reporting, those republicans victim, and in said that scott campbell would consistentl harass the intern fo information about her sex life the intern saw that mr campbell told her that h fantasized about her, an another intern in lewd acts. she also said that he grabbe her around her neck, making he recoil and feel sick this situation escalated to degree that the entrances sh needed to move out of th building were both xi in the republican had apartments. in order to feel safe again. when confronted about thes allegations by our local reporter, republican scott campbell, claim that the behavior in question consisted of quote, consensual adult conversation the ethics subcommitte determined otherwise and a letter to the speaker of the tennessee state house th committee concluded that the ethics committee finds that th representative campbel violated the policy agains workplace discrimination and

harassment now take a good look at th date of the top of that. i know you can see it right. they're march 29th, 2023 that means that when lawmakers voted to oust to democrats o april 6th, it was well known a least to the speaker of th tennessee state house, that ar republican also violated som pretty serious house rules and yet, the republican face zero public consequences until today, when he was asked about it publicly. representative scotty campbell handed in his resignatio today. that does it for us, we'll see you again tomorrow now it's time for the last wor with lawrence o'donnell, goo evening, lawrence. >> good evening, alex, i learn something today about what w call the wild west the old wil west that there was way more contro in the w