easier, telemundo. -- and ayman mohyeldin is in fo alex good evening, ayman. >> good evening, chris hayes enjoy the rest of your evening off. and thanks to you at home fo joining us this hour i'm ayman mohyeldin in for ale wagner we start tonight with hi breaking news that came out of the supreme court. it's breaking news about this, this drug. it is called mifepristone. it is a pale about the size of an aspirin and it is the first of two pills used in the most commo form of abortion here in the united states. it's medication abortion it is safe it is effective. and it is significantly less invasive than a surgical abortion and if you have been following the news, you would know tha earlier this month, trump-appointed federal judg in texas ruled that despit this drug being used safely fo 23 years now, the fda was wron to approve the drug. and his ruling had the potential to take the drug off the market altogether. so, tonight's decision from th

supreme court was pretty clear it means this will not happen, at least not yet the supreme court issued wha is known as a stay, meanin they are effectively blockin that texas judges decision while this case is appeale through our court system maybe even all the way back to the supreme court down the roa -- now, the lower court battle is complicated and we the, and ma lead to some chaos down th line for mifepristone access and we are going to talk t experts about that in just a moment but for now, for tonight, this drug is still widely available so, on a practical level, that is where we are. the question is, on a lega level, tonight's ruling is als quite interesting. there's a majority of justices who approved tonight's stay. but at least two did not that's justice clarence thomas said that he would have denied this day he did not explain why it was just a single line in

this ruling that says he disagrees. and justice samuel alito wrote a full dissent, we are going t ask our experts for how to rea the tea leaves here in just second as well but what does this actuall mean about where we as a country stand in the large battle over abortion access? planned parenthood called th decision good news but they also said that th access to this drug should never have been in jeopardy in the first place. president biden said h continues to stand by the fda' evidence based approval of the drug and called on the america people to use their vote a their voice and elect congress will pass a law restoring the protections of roe v. wade. nancy northrop, center of th center for reproductive rights said the supreme court's decision is a huge relief bu we are not out of the wood yet. joining us now are nancy northrop, president and ceo of the center for and tali-fardia

eweinstein - were you surprised by this order, and what do you mea when you say we are not out of the woods yet? >> well, let me just say, i am happy about this order and i a relieved about this order. it's very good we are not out of the wood yet. because, basically, the suprem court did say there is going t be a stay, in fact, so that' good we represent abortion provider across the country and they can continue continue where -- abortions illegal, providing medication abortion to their patients for the next, six weeks, eight weeks, until th supreme court wears olives any further issues that come u with this circuit. but we are not out of the wood yet. because they did not decid this on the merits they just said we are going to keep a stay in place right now we should not be here to begin with this is a frivolous lawsuit. they judge shopped in texas to get this in front of a ver

anti abortion rights judge and it's been on the market fo 23 years it safe and effective. 5 million women have use medication abortion. it is used in countries around the world. the world health organizatio says it's essential medicine so, we should not be here at all. they should have been thrown out in as fast as it was filed but here we are. there's a good for patient today. but we have to still b vigilant about what comes next >> so, tali farhadian weinstein, this ruling kicks mifepristone down the road, basically and it's essentially down to the fifth circuit. how do you see this playing ou in terms of the legal mechanic over the next several months >> yeah, so this could reall take some time because what the supreme court has said is that we are no going to make an emergency decision here. we are going to freeze the world before judge kacsmaryk's decision and it has to be fully baked before it comes back to us

and so it needs to get briefed into the fifth circuit and then they might decide i they want to take it back. so, i think we are looking at really long timeline in whic this freezes in place. >> and one of the potentia outcomes now >> well, the court did tell us too much about what it was thinking as you said, there are at leas two justices who dissented fro this decision to issue the stay i say at least two because there is no rule that says you have to admit that you are a dissenter in the supreme court >> this was not a 7 to 2 rulin whatsoever >> right, it could be 7 to 2 it could be 63, it could be to 4, just on this question of the state. and only justice alito give us a little bit of insight into his thinking and he mostly talked about kin of the palace intrigue issue o when the court should be using it shadow docket but he did drop a couple o hints about what he thinks about the merits of this case. and i think it's reall important and actually quite concerning what he said abou

that so, he said, first of all, tha he didn't think that the peopl who wanted this day had show that they would be a reputable harm from allowing the fifth circuit decision to go int effect because he said it would jus take us back to 2016 well, a lot of things happened after 2016 the dosage was improved. that's really important to women's health the generic became approve after 2016 and, of course, most importantly, that's when thi pill became available by mail. >> - >>, yeah >> and not just doctors bein the providers for it there's a huge expansion o accessibility. and so to say that it is not really harmful to set the cloc back to before those changes i an aggressive position >> so -- i was going to say, i want t pick up on that point. nancy northup, obviously, th supreme court declined to take the case right now and assuming it does make it way back to the highest court, perhaps, over the next 1 months or so, the earliest you

could hear it would be thi fall and, then potentially a ruling could come during the heart of a very heated and charged 2024 election season how does that timing affect th fight for access to abortion rita large >> well, i will just say, in general, of course, the figh for access to abortion is goin on right now throughout th country. it is not just that we saw the great outcome in the midterm elections. we have seen the ballo initiatives. and the -- that people are getting the -- fact themselves, but voting it in the ballot, we saw that i michigan, california, vermont. we also saw voters pushback in kansas and kentucky an elsewhere, where was trying to be taken out of their stat constitutions. and we see states like new yor and california and mor standing up and protecting providers in their states an patients who are coming to their states so, the battle is going on right now. your viewers need to know that everyone needs to be activated and paying attention

so, if this ends up next fall, we will see if it happens but. in the meantime. people have become quite educated about how safe an effective medication abortio is, and that it is the metho of preference for over half of the women in the united states right now who seek abortio care >> so, going back to your, point tali, about th dissenting voices -- alito and justice thomas - does it give us any insigh into how this may be revisited down the road, which is to say that, yes, they have frozen in time, so to speak, on this decision precarious merrick' ruling but does it give us any insigh as to how they might b thinking if it does revert bac to the supreme court in year's time or so? >> yeah, well, given that yo don't have to say if you were dissenter -- i mean, this could have just been a one sentence order that said this decision is state. i think we do have to ask, whe the justices give us a littl bit more about what they are thinking when they raise their hand and they say i dissente from this decision, what are they trying to communicate and i think justice alito ha

said some arguments that h thinks might actually be goo arguments. the one we just talked about i terms of, is it really s harmful to kind of go down t back to 2016 if you are no going all the way back down to disapproval of the pill? and the other thing he said is the other department of justic and the fda might choose to no enforce the disapproval of mifepristone so, even if it's - the drug should not have bee brought to market, they migh not go after - put it out there and i thought that was kind of strange. he was saying, well, that migh not make this controversy that needs this emergency relief. so, he is kind of raising th issue of kind of the court power to tell the fda what t do with the enforcemen authority anyway so, i think those are tw things that we should be watching >> let me ask you about this kind of broader ruling about the judge in washington having to make this decision. essentially, the regulations o

mifepristone in 17 states an the district of columbia could the supreme court here have to reconcile a conflict with that? >> yeah. so, while technically this might not make its way back to the supreme court, i can't imagine that it won't. because the supreme court, jus for context, gets 10,000 petitions a year and chooses about 75 or so to decide and at the top of the criteria is if there is a conflict on a important issue betwee different courts and confusion as to what the law is - so, when you have those tw decisions that came out in texas and in washington state, within an hour of each other that said -- >> - confusion -- >> - the generic maker of mifepristone say, in a different court, in maryland you can't be serious that th generic could possibly not b on the market while the bran name drug remains on the market, because it was approve earlier. so, i think just given all o that chaos, aware that we ar

using a lot in this context, i think appropriately, this will be back before the nin justices >> and nancy, let me ask you about what some states are doing. you've got massachusetts washington, even oregon as o today -- they essentially have announce that they have stockpiled th drug other states, like new york, california are stockpiling other drugs used in medication abortion what would you advise people t do you have talked about the figh for access to abortion a ongoing in realtime. it's on the electoral front. but in terms of what states ca do, what do you think should b done at this point as this continues to play out? >> i think that states - and they are - need to look at all of their options. and it is a good thing tha states are stepping up eve since the supreme cour unjustifiably reversed roe v wade in the dobbs decision las june states that support the righ to make these important health care decisions for yourself ar stepping up and making sur that, as you pointed out, that the drugs are being stockpiled in those states. they are making sure that thei

providers can provide care, an people coming from other states, and are passing shia laws to protect their doctors from being hauled into the court, for example, in texas, tha they are providing care to texas patients all of that is tremendousl important. and everyone needs to know whether you are in a state tha is banning abortion, or a stat that has stood up for the righ to make these fundamenta decisions about ourselves, you need to let your officials kno that you want them to be providing the right to acces care that is so important. but we are really glad tha states are stepping up and doing the right thing so tha people can get the health care that they need >> what do you think is goin to happen next what is the most likely outcom here i mean, it's kind of hard to predict, given all these movin pieces - that that's unfolding. >> so, i wasn't surprised that the court stayed judge has merrick's decision and actually think the fda and the doj are going to win and i think that they are goin to win in the end because th lower courts decisions here on

standing - on the issue of who gets t bring a case to federal cour -- is so divergent from 50 year of supreme court precedent i mean, if he are doctors, who might see a botched medica abortion and be traumatized by it can come into federal court then, i mean, you can just imagine all the other argument for who can bring cases. and it would, i think, jus radically change what federa courts can do. so, i think that's not a lef right issue. i think that's within th authority of the supreme court endorsing that standin doctrine so, i actually am pretty optimistic about the course of this one >> let's hope you are right fo the sake of reproductive right in this country. nancy northup, the president and ceo of the center fo reproductive rights, and tal farhadian weinstein, forme federal and state prosecutor right here in new york thank you very much to the bot of you for being here tonigh on this breaking news. we have much more news to ge to this hour, includin students walking out of school across the state of florid today to protest ron desantis' education policies a florida democratic state lawmaker joins me to react

but first -- longtime trump attorney an advisor boris epstein toda reportedly went back for round two of questioning in specia counsel jack smith's investigation. what information he might have for investigators -- that is next there with us hum... what's the ocean like? ♪ are there animals living underwater? ♪ is the ocean warm? yeah, it can be very warm. ♪ you were made to remember some days forever. we were made to help you find the best way there. ♪ mom: hey! cheap flight alert! we were made to help you daughter: hawaii! can we go?

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say they have been in donald trump's inner circle fro beginning to arraignment but this guy has his name is boris epstein. he worked on trump's presidential campaign in 2016, and then later in the trum white house. he's now a legal adviser t trump and his job is to kind o oversee both the civil and criminal lawyers defending trump in his various investigations epshteyn has said that his closest to trump is a matter o loyalty. but that loyalty is also resulted in epshteyn getting tangled up in his boss's efforts to overturn the result of the 2020 election he was at the ellipse rall when trump urged supporters to march to the capital he stood alongside rud giuliani, sydney powell an others as they made thei outlandish claims abou supposed fraud in the aftermat of the election. and he also became a t cigarette surrogate for trump, telling the american publi that the integrity of th election rested with the executive. watch this >> the president of the united

states is the one who make this decision. and as the chief executive it's incumbent upon th president to ensure that thi election was - in a fair and square manner. >> now, of course, the chief executive has nothing to d with elections state and local officials in this country are the ones that actually run elections governor signed the electo certificates congress certifies the electoral votes. but it makes sense that he sai that because, not long after that remark, we actually learne that mr. epshteyn was involved in the fake elector plot t assign electoral votes to trum in seventh he had actually lost. >> there's also been reporting about the attempt that to seat fraudulent electors. is that something you ever worked on or something that' important, for example, in michigan >> yes, i was part of th process to make sure there wer alternate electors, to mak sure - everything that was done was done legally by the trump lega

team, according to the rules and on - rudy giuliani. >> all under the leadership of rudy giuliani -- a lot of people watched that interview, including prosecutors in georgia, wh quickly subpoenas epshteyn ove his direct involvement wit this fake elector plot and two weeks later, the fbi seized his phone and all of this context is actually important because yesterday federal prosecutor in the special counsel's offic -- they interviewed epshteyn fo multiple hours abc news reported that, quote, the interview was largel focused on efforts by trump an his allies to overturn trump's 2020 election loss now, with even more revealin about this interview as ab reports that special counsel jack smith actually sat himsel in on a portion of the interview. that's not common. and it's sort of a big deal. you know what else is also a big deal today, boris epshtey reportedly went back in for

second day of questioning. considering that the fbi tha epshteyn has epshteyn phone -- another possibility is that da two of questioning is focuse on the mar-a-lago investigatio in which epshteyn also played key role joining us now is former federal prosecutor and legal analyst this chandler ru week. -- greatly appreciate your time let's talk about that second revelation the fact that he was there for two days why do you think prosecutors i needed two days to interview mr. epstein epshteyn and how significant is the fact, that, as abc news was reporting, tha the special counsel himself, jack smith, sat in on a portio of that interview? >> i think it really highlight how important of a witness someone like epshteyn could be because he's right at trump' side and, as he boldly asserted, he's fully aware of the efforts, with regard to the fraudulen

electors, and sort o implicating rudy giuliani in that as well i think one thing to remembe about it is that it's such a unusual situation for a lawyer a legal adviser, to have his phone seized and the amount of time, as you were saying -- it could take just to go through the evidence and the phone in and of itself could take a long time - he does not seem like a man wh is a verse to talking. he may feel he can sort of tal his way around issues. he obviously could be assertin at times attorney-client privilege. but -- that long it certainly doesn't sound like he's making a blanket assertion. >> yeah, let's talk about th phone for a moment the fact that the fbi ha epshteyn's phone is pretty significant, i would say, give the fact that he, in som capacity, was a lawyer in th trump world. how does that change things fo him? they have his phone or perhaps were able to access it and obviously recover it, mayb juxtapose what they are able t see on the phone with what the are questioning him about --

>> it really gives him a outline to go through timeline with him, to go through th narrative and to go throug what testimony he should b able to give based on what i in his phone i can't emphasize what an od situation it is that they have the -- phone and are questioning hi about the very quiet that he purports to represent. most attorneys in that situation would simply immediately recuse or withdraw from representing the client because they just are in a hopelessly conflicte situation. obviously, it never seems to happen with the trum attorneys. so, they just sort of like stagger on this way, give some combination of blustering that there is attorney-client privilege, and yet also try to tuck away through things but having something like phone like that, that's a gold mine for prosecutors in term of knowing where to pursue the question >> when you think of the lon list of people who have worked in the trump orbit, both a lawyers or perhaps in th

political capacity, who've ended up being in lega jeopardy, do you think somebod like a boris epshteyn could be in legal jeopardy? >> he could be it seems like, from his actions, and from what we are seein that perhaps he is not as much in the crosshairs. folks like giuliani, whose nam keeps popping up - those seem like they are mor in the crosshairs for jeopardy i think even though epshteyn i not a criminal defense lawye himself, i suspect he is savvy enough that he would want to stay out of the testimony, i he was really being told he wa a target or face jeopardy. >> and it seems that epshtey could have said no to talkin to prosecutors why do you think he went in? why do you think he did not tr to fight this, perhaps prolonging his participation as we've seen other trum surrogates do? >> yeah, it's really interesting. a lot of people who are overly confident about themselves

rather arrogant -- you will see this sometimes an high powered executives in such they really think that they ar able to talk their way out o anything and so that might be of why he feels he is good enough to get in there and talk withou having to fight legally, without having a certain - and perhaps he feels he can do his client a lot of good no doubt, he may feel that i in your sin to trump, being on afraid to go in there and pu on - for trump. but there is a reason wh impress relations people usually are not involved in th substance of policy making decisions or legal strateg decisions because they are really involved and they exten and are not involved in that substantive effort somebody like him seems to wan to do both and usually that's really ba idea >> let me ask you if i, ca shanlon wu, about anothe development. -- there's another trump matter obviously, there is this ongoing legal struggle here in manhattan. we learn tonight to th manhattan d.a.'s offic withdrew its appeal of a

federal judges decision that former prosecutor mark pomerantz must testify to th house judiciary committee, basically paving the way for him to cooperate with the hous judiciary committee in tha inquiry, as i understand, it with the presence of a lawye from the manhattan d.a.' office - what do you make of that is that significant? and what do you anticipate happens next >> i think, for the manhatta d.a.'s office, it was critical win for them to b able to have their own general counsel there for this testimony. because they really want t protect the privilege an confidential discussions tha are going on the which are really - pomerantz is two-way so, they really want to protec that i think some of the calculus may have been to try and wholesale seal them off, block them off from appearing, which probably not a very sound lega argument to me and many - given especially what he's written in the - book but question by questio that is usually where privileg

really gets litigated in asserted, is very specific t the topic and the question so, this actually makes a lo of sense for them to do with this way and i think it gives them a lo of protection for their work product as well. >> - may 12th, we will see whethe not that does take place at th time former federal prosecutor an legal analyst shanlon wu, than you so much. we greatly pre-show your tim this evening >> good to see you >> likewise. when we go back we are going t go to florida, florida, florida, we are, on the one hand, ron desantis's ambition to be th republican nominee for president -- well, they are being undercu by that other guy in florida and, on the other hand, florid students walked out of class today to protest how their governor is building his presidential bona fides at their expense. we are going to get a view fro the ground as desantis tries t take his so-called war on woke to the national battlefield. that is next 't have to be scary. (screaming) defeat allergy headaches fast with new flonase headache and allergy relief! two pills relieve allergy headache pain?

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few scenes that played out all across florida this afternoon. you see there on the lef students walking out of clas on the campus of the universit of central florida on the right of your screen, students are holding a rally o the campus of eckhart colleg in st. petersburg. in miami, students at th city's public school for advanced studies also walked out of class they had the signs that read

gender does not harm kids, you are just a homophobe and banning books and histor is not freedom the students protests were organized by - a network of florida-based student activists. and they were in response to the extreme education measures florida republican lawmakers have passed in recent months a the behest of their governor not ron desantis, like the sto woke act, a law which restrict how race and gender ar expressed in public schools, and the don't say gay law that bars teachers in public school from teaching about sexual orientation and gender identit in third grade just this week, the florid board of education expanded th don't say gay laws classroom ban to all the greats. teachers who violate these law face being fired, even losin their teaching license in th state. now you have governor ro desantis notching up several o those culture war winds as h prepares for a likel

presidential run and those winds appear to be what republican voters wan from a leader of their party a new poll from the wall stree journal found that 55% o republican primary voters sa that fighting, quote, woke ideology in our schools an businesses is more important than protecting medicare and social security. do republican lawmakers work overtime to court that sentiment from the parties bas for a political gain - one for the democrat who supported today student walkou -- state representative angie nixon. she's calling out that obvious double standard, saying, i part, republicans claim that they hate cancel culture however, they are literally th ones trying to cance culture's. they are trying to cancel ou communities. they are trying to cancel th ability of our students to hav babies, to learn, to be taught true history - black history, lgbtq history and trans history, our history american history joining us now is democratic

florida state representative angie nixon. state representative nixon, it is great to have you with us tonight. thanks so much for making time let me first get your reaction to what we saw play out toda across your state, these walkout protest by you students >> yeah, so, more played out today was goodness happening we saw students at over 30 schools across the state o florida pushing back against the discriminatory practices and policies that this overreaching republican le legislature and governor had been pushing over the past few years. and so we see our leaders of today and not tomorrow actuall standing up and it was actuall just great to witness. >> what do you make of how thi pace the, lightning speed with which republicans have passe so many restrictive bills on the so-called culture wa issues, against wokeness in th

past six weeks since the start of the session >> yeah, what we have is a overzealous and politicall ambitious governor who i bullying our state legislature at the end of the day, h should be more concerned wit the fact that we have rising costs of property insurance. but instead, he wants to continue to -- to a base. and he knows that he i actually losing some of th congressional members who have went on to endorse donal trump. and so, he's trying it at al cost to use his bully pulpit t get these things passed, to tr to, again, just appeal to base of voters because he knows he is losin trump voters right now >> so, how do you when you colleagues, your democrati colleagues, respond to these measures how do you fight this battle that is taking place right now when there is such a majorit in the florida state legislature that they can just drive this through at th behest of ron desantis

>> yeah, so, we have to just resist at all cost, and use ou platform, social media, push back, and also file amendments to - sometimes people say they ar petty amendments but they actually show the ridiculousness of what i coming out of tallahassee. and also it's just going out and telling people what is happening here in the state of florida, taking it to th streets. i'm organized. i'm a community organizer as well so, we have to go down in th grassroots and let people know what is going on oftentimes, you hear it said and for, that folks don't know what is coming out o tallahassee. but i think we have been doing a great job this legislative session, letting folks know, our eyes are going to be o florida. because, again, like i stated, we have a very politically ambitious governor and right now, he' overreaching and so, we are going to be o the front lines here, lettin everyone know that florida ain't as free as they say it is, and at america, you are in

danger, girl we have to stop ron desantis i his tracks >> let me ask you about what i taking place here in some of the republicans, specifically. we've seen reporting this week that some of your republican colleagues are actually grow tired of the governor's cultur wars but they are, i guess, scare to speak out publicly about it can you describe the dynamic in the florida legislature right now? do you have any insight? perhaps you are speaking t republicans who do not fee what this is florida should be consuming its time with? >> yeah, actually had conversation with one of m republican colleagues that i will not name. but they stated that after thi legislative session they may come back as democrats because they do fear that they are really overreaching here look, at the end of the day, w have had 30 years of republica rule in the state of florida and we are currently in a race to the bottom. what we have seen constantly day in and day out, is the

defunding of public schools, our children have a lot of - a lot of our children can' read even that grade level we have an over 8000 educato shortage there's a mass exodus of educators in the state o florida. i have a roommate win in tallahassee. and she is a florida state professor. she told me that there wer some professors that were goin to come to florida however the rescinded, and decided not t go because of the lack of academi freedom here in our state. we are losing our best and brightest here and florida is on a race to th bottom if we continue down thi path and again, america, we do no want desantis. look what he's doing here in the state of florida we do not need someone lik that lead in the country >> it's exactly what he' promising to do, to take wha he's doing with florida and do it nationwide, if he does make it to the white house. democratic florida state

representative angie nixon really appreciate you making time for us tonight. thanks so much >> thanks for having me. >> still, more ahead tonight - florida governor ron desanti hasn't announced he's runnin for president yet. but the snubs are alread trickling in and some are from republicans, as he -- in his own backyard. that's next. and longer when you need it most. its non-habit forming and powered by the makers of nyquil. the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. and it could strike at any time. think you're not at risk? wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. want luxury hair repair that doesn't cost $50? pantene's pro-vitamin formula repairs hair. as well as the leading luxury bonding treatment. for softness and resilience, without the price tag. if you know... you know it's pantene.

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one month before that year's

midterm elections. and then congressman ron desantis - well, he was running for governor of florida, as staunch ally of donald trump desantis even released this, a campaign ad -- yep, it's showing him building a fake border wall with hi children and teaching him to read on a trump campaign signed but other florida republican were less eager to wrap thei arms around the controversia president at the time. and one of those skittis florida republicans was this guy. michael waltz -- waltz was running to fill th deep red congressional distric that desantis gave up to become, or to run for governor but even in that saf republican district, tha strongly red district, michael waltz -- he had pressed that trump coul be a liability here is the headline fro politico at the time florida republican house candidate snubs trump rally -- and in the article, it read in part, fluoresces sources familiar with the talks michael waltz declined ami concerns about the risks o

publicly stumping with trump fast forward to today, ron desantis and donald trump -- well, they are locked in a bitter battle over who would b the ultimate leader of the republican party and that guy, michael waltz, what is he up to >> well -- >> let's bring in florid republican congressman michael waltz. he represent governo desantis's oh district in th house, but just endorsed forme president trump. >> at the end of the day margaret, he asked me for my endorsement. he's been very good to me an my district. and i said yes >> ouch! >> florida republica congressman michael waltz is just the latest republican i that state to snub ron desanti in favor for donald trump. donald trump now has the support of more than half of the republicans in florida's congressional delegation and those endorsements come as in the wall street journal shows desantis - trailing trump, 31% -- that same poll had desanti

leading trump by 14 points just four months ago - republican voters and electe officials, well, they appear t be abandoning ron desantis i droves and some - well, they are not mincing words about why they are doing so take, for example, david - former republican congressma they are, who served with ro desantis on the house foreig affairs committee. he told politico, just today - i think desantis is an a whole i don't think he cares about people joining us now is matthew dowd msnbc senior political analyst matthew, it's great to see you again. i know you are looking at this and saying, i don't think i've seen a potential campaign kind of implode so quickly. what happened to desantis' proto-campaign in these last few weeks? >> well, it's like it is blown up even before it got to that. >> right >> i think the problem is, and

i've always said this -- these congressman, i don't mak a lot with endorsements, unles what they are doing is recognizing what the base is u to and i think with these congressman leading the voters they are actually following th voters and, of course, in this and it's a demonstration about the stranglehold that donald trump still has on the base of the republican party if you put to center point o where the republican party i today, it is donald trump. and that's the problem that ro desantis has maybe he launches a campaign that is contingent on donald trump following and failin apart and getting put in jai or something maybe that's the contingency but a one-on-one race with trump versus desantis -- it doesn't look like it's goin to be much of a campaign >> let me -- you bring up a lot o interesting points but let me play -- you get to some of the point that you raised. -- greg steube and one of his's - about fox news and i'll get your reaction o the other side >> there's been multiple

opportunities where i have gon up to him and talked him, give him myself phone number, asked him to reach out to me there has been events in m district that i wa specifically told i could no be part of the press conference and told him to go stand in th -- corner was not allowed to be participating in that when h was in my district so, you can't win friends an influence people that way, especially in the politica realm. >> so, i guess my question t you, matthew is -- these congressman, no one' putting a gun to your head right now and say, hey, indoor -- i think politicians, the republican party, ultimately will have to make decisions. everyone will make decisions about who they endorse but this is so early on in the game that i'm surprised more are not saying, hey, let's wai and see if ron can get thi momentum going and we can ge some steam behind him. is this all because ro desantis just is not all goo at retail politics or is it because the pull of donald trump on th consequences of going agains

him, potentially, are so grave >> well, i think it's combination of both thos things i think it's a combination o number one, donald trump - you are not dealing with a rational actor, right? so, a rational actor would b like, okay, i understand, want you with me but i understand, you can join me whenever i win a primary or something. that would be a rational actor donald trump is not that he will commit all sorts o vengeance and drum up all kind of craziness in their district among republicans towards them and then - that's the other part. >> but if ron desantis - may be wrong can sort of pus up against some of that, if ro desantis was a very good politician now, the thing about staye statewide races for viewers is statewide races -- you can kind of hide sometimes your ability to get some personal connections you can run on television ads. the press does not cover the as much. you can avoid debate you can do all those sorts o things where they don't really -- voters don't really see who yo

are fundamentally, excep through the prism of what yo are showing them in a presidential race, the ke of the lights is that it's s bright and it's such a clarity it shows all your flaws, i shows your strength. and it also shows all your flaws. and from what i've talked to - i've talked to a number of republicans in florida it is pretty common knowledg among all republicans ther that have been in any contac with them with ron desantis -- is he has no retail politics ability. he just has no - even as the congressman pointe out, even the basic things about learning someone's nam are going out of your way to reach out. he's not interested in it. that is not who he is. >> do you think ron desantis i making a mistake right now b continuing to delay -- we are assuming he's going t run. but do you assume he's making bad decision, a mistak politically, by not entering the race at this point >> well, when you take o

donald trump you have to mak that decision early clear an then early do a full frontal push up against him. that's the only way you ca beat donald trump. he actually has the worst of all possible worlds, which is, he has not made that clarity decision he's unwilling to push u against donald trump and so he basically allows donald trump to do what donald trump does, which is, all of this stuff where he comes up with names he starts attacking you. and ron desantis is basicall taking all of these arrows unwilling to sort of come up and confront donald trump. and that's the fear that donal trump's pose bestows on people and it's basically - if he was to do that he coul actually point out negatives and point out all that but if you are unwilling to do that, donald trump will tear your heart out >> yes, and it seems lik that's what he wants to do t ron desantis at this moment in the race matthew dowd, it's always pleasure thank you so much for joinin us >> it's my pleasure. thanks, man. >> we have one more story fo

you coming up. and it involves billionair elon musk's very, very bad week and the potentially reckless consequences of his latest action at twitter. we will tell you about that. that's next. ♪♪ allergies don't have to be scary. (screaming) defeat allergy headaches fast with new flonase headache and allergy relief! two pills relieve allergy headache pain? and the congestion that causes it! flonase headache and allergy relief. psst! psst! all good!

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nearly 13 billion dollars afte his company tesla reported disappointing force quarte earnings after rocket billed by his other company spacex, well exploded in midair only minute after lift off but, if you have a hard time feeling bad for billionaires about stuff like this, there i another elon musk fiasco for the past week that you may wan to pay closer attention to yesterday, the social medi site twitter also owned by musk, they started removing the blue verification check marks for accounts that joe pay a monthl subscription twitters verification system

was another perfect unti yesterday, you could reasonabl believe that the people or brands or agencies with th blue check marks were in fac those very people or brands or agencies they were claiming to be but here's what happened whe twitter began taking those bleach ex-wife new york city's official government account tried t reassure followers that they were legit, and shortly afte an imposture account contested that, saying they were the rea official in new york cit government account the good thing is, tha impostor accounts, it was take down a few hours later but wha happens when hundreds if not thousands of imposture account suddenly begin to pop up, what is stopping bad actors fro purchasing a blue check for $8 to so harmful information. imagine election 2024. what happens with someon pretends to be a state electio official posting about polling locations are hours?

what if they're another tragic mass shooting in this -- affix a verified account pertain to the local polic department declares an area is safe, when a mass shooter is still large? these hypotheticals ar unfortunately not farfetched but hopefully they can serve a a cautionary tale. for how we should navigate these online spaces. certainly this one that is owned by elon musk always be skeptical. always ask questions that is the show for tonight alex will be back here nex week, of course, you can catch my show eamonn here on and a nbc saturdays at 8 pm, sundays at nine eastern, it's now time to head over to my friend fo the last word. he's filling in for lawrence good evening ali >> i'm so happy to see you i'm always happy to see you as you know, but i'm uniquely happy to see you tonight because, i've been on tv for probably 30 years and i believ that my parents watch me every time i'm on tv, so i suspect they're watching right now, an i was going to have to explain to my mother after the show