catastrophic economic con consequences and, politically, would be perilous for the president, who is expected to announce his re-election bid soon, perhaps tomorrow eli, thank you so much for joining us this morning. co-author of "politico's" "west wing playbook" every afternoon check it out. thank you for getting up "way too early" on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now president joe biden could announce his re-election campaign as soon as tomorrow. >> i mean, it's monday. >> i'm getting there we're back into the show. >> back to the show. good morning. >> setting up a potential 2020 rematch with donald trump. we'll look on polling about how voters feel about a second term for biden and donald trump's mounting legal issues. >> really excited about that rematch, huh >> i don't know. are they >> not really. meanwhile, on capitol hill, the house is expected to vote

this week on speaker kevin mccarthy's plan to raise the debt ceiling also ahead, the state department pulls u.s. personnel out of the embassy in sudan amid fierce fighting in the country we'll have the latest on the deadly conflict and what's next for thousands of americans who are still over there plus, we'll dig into new reporting on a possible spring counteroffensive from ukraine. >> looks like the russians are actually retreating or starting to evacuate people from areas around kherson, which suggests a retreat is coming up for the russians. >> ukraine, again, is trying to regain land controlled by russian forces, and that will ultimately, in the end, whenever that is, it's going to involve some very, very deep negotiations as it pertains to land they took. >> yeah. >> now opposed to crimea. good morning welcome to "morning joe. it is monday, april 24th there's our good morning. >> good morning. happy monday >> with us, the host of "way too

early," bureau chief at q "politico," jonathan lemire. host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton is with us. member of "the new york times" editorial board, mara gay joins us this morning. along with senior columnist for the "daily beast," matt lewis. and editor at the "financial times," ed luce joins us this morning. >> let's just say it, jonathan lemire, i mean, like i've said all along, the red sox, i mean, come on. they're bound for glory. we've known it all along never doubted them for a second. >> mm-hmm. >> our confidence has been un-waving, unyielding and steadfast, joe we knew all along. we've been nothing but optimistic here. the red sox yesterday won again. >> yeah. >> they won a series from the brewers. they've won, joe, seven out of ten. >> exactly. >> yoshida, your guy, managed to hit two home runs. one of them a grand slam in the

same -- >> my guy. >> -- in ning i hope hotel rooms are booked for october. >> nice, easy swing. like i told jack, let the bat do the work for you yeah, it's nice to see yoshida is finally hitting the ball. if anybody else wants to weigh in on red sox baseball, feel free hearing no takers, we move forward to the -- >> absolutely none >> -- campaign for the white house. many still support donald trump's campaign despite his mounting legal troubles. >> can we just stop right there? >> there's a lot of reasons. we can go into it. >> stop right there for a second they still support him, ref reverend al, despite the fact this is a guy who wanted to terminate the constitution this is a guy who denied the election was the first president, actually, since the civil war to not allow a peaceful transfer of

power. a guy who actually supported the overthrow of the election results. spurred on an insurrection against the united states of america. all of these riots, people in jail because of donald trump republicans are, "that's fine. that's fine. it reminds me, back in 2016, jon meacham said that donald trump was like a hijacker that got on a plane, the republican party in this case, and everybody that was on the plane, the passengers on the plane were cheering for the hijacker they still are, despite the fact he took the plane down in 2017, 23 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 we'll show polls, reverend al, that says that, yeah, people aren't excited about joe biden people aren't excited about donald trump but if you match biden against a

generic republican, the generic republican wins easily if you compare biden to donald trump, it's biden. trump's approval ratings lower than biden's, yet, they just keep wanting to lose, these republicans. >> you're exactly right. but i think we must remember, the rise of donald trump was as a grievance candidate, that they are after us, they look down on us, they do not hear us, they are trying to destroy our families never really defining who "they" were, because he was closer to the established order than any of the people that he was appealing to so now, he has convinced them that they are prosecuting me because i am one of you. it's his next step in grievance politics the next question is, does a desantis or someone have enough of a charisma, appeal or

political savvy to counter that with another narrative we keep hearing desantis and others coming out, but they've not developed a narrative that the public, in terms of the republican public, buy into. they bought into grievance politics with trump. no one has come up with an alternative narrative. >> you know, mara gay, it is fascinating. republicans, these trump republicans, they love this whole "they're after us. they're coming after our way." they are they are not the ones making 10-year-old girls who have been raped flee the state of ohio to not have a forced birth in the state of ohio. they're not the ones, democrats, that are sending little children to school in fear of their lives instead of reading and writing and arithmetic they have to worry about ar-15s. they have to worry about shotguns they have to worry about being

killed because, now, and it's not democrats doing this, it's the republican party, now, they're the ones that are passing crazy legislation that allows the killings of little children to continue to where, now, it's number one cause of death among children, guns >> i mean, what you're talking about is just what grievance politics, that the rev was discussing, half wrought it's not about delivering anything real to the american people, it's about stoking old hatreds. that's a sad day because what we have now is a slate of poli politicians, most of them in the republican party, who are in office not as public servants, but just to stoke grievances that shows that shows, you know, even when ron desantis, for example, didn't show up, you know, several weeks ago when there was really horrific weather

situation. that's just 101 in politics. but these are politicians who actually are more motivated by grievance than they are by public servant you see that i mean, the other thing that you kind of brought up here, raised, joe, and i think this is interesting, is the advantage that donald trump has right now is also that he's not in office. when you're in office, you get blamed for everything that goes wrong. despite the fact that he stoked this really sad decline of the republican party, and that has ushered in these politicians who are passing these draconian draws on abortion, punishing women, doing nothing about guns, he's actually not having to take the blame for it because he's not in office. so i think that also is giving him an added bump among republican voters. we shouldn't discount that. >> well, and, rev, another reason they're losing, these republicans, you have to just say it because it's truth, and this isn't a knock on

republicans. i'm trying to help them every day understand why they just keep losing. because the hatred, the victimhood we watched a little bit of a certain network over the weekend, mika and i. you wouldn't believe i mean, it's hunter biden's laptop i think the trans influencer beer commercial. i forget the third thing, but you're sitting there and going, "are there really people at home going, yes, these are the most important issues in america right now? you had this unbelievable statistic on "politics nation" about news coverage and pictures of all of these republicans getting ar-15s >> oh, my god. >> i kid you not, getting ar-15s and shooting up budlight beer cans acts of violence against beer

because of a social media post on budlight. what was that stat they spent more time covering that than what >> they spent more time covering that than they spent dealing with the issue of the gun shootings that were wgoing on. >> of course. >> i think that we wanted the people to see, this was, as you said, an online ad that they were going up against. they just went through violent acts of shooting up things, and they spent an inordinate amount of time on that rather than the dominant issues that people were dealing with that was shootings around the country by accidental incidents, like 16-year-old kid ringing a doorbell in kansas city, then a ch cheerleader going to the wrong car in another state then in upstate new york, someone pulling in the wrong driveway of different races you know, we focus, of course, on the black kid who was shot by an 84-year-old white man whose

great grandson said he has ra racism then a black guy shot a young cheerleader for opening the car door, thinking it was hers they ignore all that they are in this bias bigotry. trans, lgbtq, blacks, us against them is what they are being fed, and they're going for it >> it's so -- matt lewis, you sit back, and it doesn't take long to figure out why republicans keep losing elections every single year. i mean, what did we use to talk about, taxes used to talk about spending. we used to talk about regulations. we used to talk about a strong defense. we used to talk about freedom. now, that has been so twisted. you know, somebody in the state of florida in 2022, somebody in

the state of, you know, virginia, all across the country, they're going to get, like, 10, 15 pieces of mail on trans athletes i think after the first or second, they're like, okay, we get this now, this meltdown over a social media post by a trans influencer about budlight they're melting down over that they're melting down over hunter biden's laptop still, still. okay, what have we said here if he gets arrested by the fbi, okay, you're not going to see us talking about injustice. we'll go, okay, well, i guess he did it that's how the world worked before trump if the fbi arrested him, "okay, i knew him too bad. >> then you're innocent until proven guilty. >> but you cover the news. >> they've twisted it so much. these republicans are focusing on things that are never going to win 'em elections

it's just hatred and extremism and extreme positions on abortion extreme positions on guns. extreme positions on social issues that, when they go mainstream, they win >> i think that's right, joe i think maybe the lesson should be joe biden look at how joe biden won the democratic nomination in 2020 and then the presidency. it was by not being on the internet everybody else was following twitter. twitter was running their campaigns. you had all these democrats who thought, i don't know, medicare for all. there was a bunch of bernie sanders ideas, you know, the guy who didn't win, that they were essentially co-opting. meanwhile, joe biden just ran as, you know, uncle joe, and ended up winning the nomination and the presidency if you contrast that with what someone like, say, a ron desantis is doing this time around, i mean, i think ron

desantis was pretty well poised to run as someone who kind of was a hybrid candidate yeah, he could dip his toes in the culture wars and rev up the base, but he could run as a, dare say, reagan republican who was, you know, you could be just a normal person who supported ron desantis i think he is too online i think that his campaign thinks that twitter, or maybe he thinks that twitter is the real world, so they've doubled down really on the culture wars, going after mickey mouse instead of donald trump, instead of joe biden, really i mean, they're running this kind of culture war campaign, and there is a sense that, like, the big enemy out there is bud budlight, you know, not china, not even the democrats he is not running as a mainstream candidate who could win a general election he is running to be the -- he is

running to be the president of right-wing twitter, and i don't think that's a smart political move nevermind what it might be doing to the country. >> well, i mean, it's budlight instead of china it's mickey mouse instead of north orea it is hunter biden's laptop instead of russia. in fact, a lot of 'em are on putin's side they'll basically say that you listen to what marjorie taylor greene says listen to what other republicans say. it's frightening for people who are supporters of the freedom, not just in the united states but across the west. >> but this is exactly what -- this is the looming and still -- i'll say this carefully -- still existent threat of donald trump. when you see those numbers, you wonder what's going on there well, we just described it it's this entire media ecosystem

that he sits in. >> yeah. >> where lies fester, and they're not checked. then you have voters saying, "yeah, i still back trump," because they don't know about anything else. that's the bigger conversation. >> they don't want to know about anything else. >> no, look -- >> they don't. if they plug into a network after the network admits they've lied to 'em or if they plug into a network after -- >> that's what's happening. >> -- they read the texts. if they plug into that network and other networks and they continue to follow donald trump's lies, they're doing that deliberately it's just like the facebook pages, the shares that they send around, that are just absolutely outrageous i had a family member send around something to me during the pandemic three times three times, i said, "you know this is fake," and i sent the documentation. people sent me stuff from chinese religious cult website, "epic times. >> i understand. >> what i'm saying, though, you

tell them. you keep telling them. they know that they're digesting information from a chinese cult, religious cult website they know that, and they still -- because they like what it says or they like what the facebook page says they take thaton as their new reality, and they send it around to other people. this is about a party that is no longer in the majority this is about a party that's lost seven of the last eight presidential elections in the popular vote this is about a party that's taken radical positions, and they're badly outvoted in places like kansas now on abortion, wisconsin, and they know, the only thing they can do if they keep pushing these extreme positions, mika, they're trying to subvert democracy why? because democracy doesn't work for them anymore because in the world of one person, one vote, they lose.

>> yeah. well, we can talk more about this, but to your point, in the latest nbc news survey, 68% of gop primary voters say the investigations into trump are politically motivated and that they must support him in 2024 to stop his opponents from winning. that, too, is this ecosystem that i was talking about on the flip side, 26% say the party should nominate someone other than trump who isn't distracted by legal issues and can make defeating joe biden their sole focus overall, trump is still the top choice of 46% of republican voters ron desantis is the second most popular option with 31%. all the other candidates, including former vice president mike pence, who has not announced a run for the presidency yet, poll in single digits actually, ed luce, your latest "financial times" piece is entitled "the rise and fall of

decron desantis "te tell us more. is it over can you deduce that? >> slightly provocative headline if you looked at those numbers, the same numbers you've shown after the midterms, they were the reverse of that in most polls. desantis was 10, 20 points ahead of trump in many of those, and now he is 10, 20 points behind the reason for that is, as he's sort of dipped his toe on the national stage, gone to new hampshire, gone to iowa, he's actually now in japan, by the way, and he's heading to israel and to the uk. i guess very safe allies to demonstrate his foreign policy credentials in some ways anyway, as he's stepped onto the national stage, his lack of sort of human quality and likability, and i guess ineptitude i was just astonished last week, i still am, by his sort of brutal daylight homicide of

churchill's rhetoric, "we will make war on woke in the universities, war on woke in the corporations we will never surrender to woke." i mean, he delivers in a wooden way, and he doesn't come across as remotely relatable at a human being. then there's also, of course, the indictment the new york indictment of trump, where desantis sort of backed trump it was an opportunity for him to really differentiate himself and to condemn lawlessness and promise trumpism without trump, without the incompetence and the criminality of trump, and he didn't if you hesitate before killing the king, you're going to lose all kinds of potency i think that's what's happening now. but, yeah, that headline, it's not one that's checked by my colleagues at ""the financial times. slightly hyperbole

i'm not sure we're ready yet to declare the fall of ron desantis, but he is falling, that's for sure. >> the headline does pcapture th republican worry of desantis, who, a few months ago, the forces in the gop who wanted to stand against trump were coalescing around trump. his poll numbers are not terrible, clearly in second place, but he is declining so many republican strategists and donors pointed out to me in recent weeks, we have the draconian stance on the abortion ban, six weeks, and the war on disney, which is anti-republican many say, taking on a private business like this as mara said earlier, turning his back on ft. lauderdale as it was underwater senator rubio wondered where tallahassee was. why aren't you helping out here? desantis, with some real channchanne -- challenges in terms of his retail political skills, hasn't found his footing during this

national tour, now international tour, that he is doing it is early, but right now, to ed's point, trump's lead is growing. you know, despite this also increased legal peril, the party itself finds itself talking to a smaller and smaller piece of the elec electorate if trump is the guy, it'll be a hard case to make come 2024. republican primary and general election, very different things. >> right again, you look at the poll, and people have their headlines, oh, this is bad news for biden bad news for biden-trump re-elect you look at generic republicans beating joe biden. then you look at joe biden's approval numbers, look at donald trump's approval numbers the guy is down in the 30s mara, it's the extremism it's the extremism i mean, he is so much more extreme. this is hard to say but true, than even he was in 2016 so is the republican party you look at what the republican party, again, is defined by.

let's look at ron desantis, for instance is this guy going to somehow bring back suburban voters when he supports a six-week abortion ban? just lost the atlanta suburbs right there. buh-bye, gone. when he supports open carry, people being able to carry around an ar-15. you know, the legislature actually said no to that, but desantis supported an open carry. i mean, in his world, somebody, if they wanted to go to walmart in al fferetta, they could carr an ar-15 there, or a grocery store. it is absolutely crazy again, this war on disney. not just war on disney, but war on corporations to do what they think they need to do to make money, to make money in the free

marketplace, to appeal to younger consumers. that's what they're doing. they're not trying to change the world. we -- we free marketers know that they're trying to make money he is actually the one saying, "the government needs to step in here." talk about socialist "no, no, we don't like how you're trying to make money at disney we don't like how small businesses in florida are trying to make money. we don't like how cruise lines are trying to make money." by making people wear masks during the pandemic. that's the only way we can make money to get them back no, tallahassee says, under ron desantis, no, no, no, we don't want you to make money your way. we don't trust you big government needs to step in. it's about as un-republican, un-conservative traditionally as you can be >> i mean, it is also bizarre. i do think that if desantis

really does kind of go away and fade politically into the long, dark night, that this bizarre feud with disney world is going to be remembered as the beginning of the end because it makes no sense. massive employer in the state of florida that he is trying to run, apparently, and also just, again, i've said this before, but every kid in america loves disney world what kind of politician runs for president trying to beat up mickey mouse i don't understand it. i don't understand what the actual strategy would be >> all right still -- >> i also had a question sorry. >> go ahead. >> i had a question for ed luce. you mentioned, ed, youngkin, the georgia governor in the piece, who you would think in the traditional republican party would, at least nationally would have more appeal, cross over appeal and be much more

competitive against joe biden. has been very successful and, in many ways, is just as conservative, if we can call it that at this point, on policy matters. can you tell us, why isn't he running? is it just that the republican voters are just too tied to trumpism still is there any hope there for a return to kind of some normalcy in the republican party? what did you see there >> so i wouldn't describe glenn youngkin kind of -- he's ruled it out -- but i wouldn't describe it as a return to normalcy i would describe it as a better imitation of a return to normalcy than you're get ting from mike pence or ron desantis. he's got that suburban dad, you know, weekend sweater appearance, reassuring ability to deal with suburban voters, to say extreme things but not sound

extreme. so he's very much, just as much a warrior as desantis or trump, but he's got that appearance of being moderate, which i think is the kind of skill this kind of republican party is the best they can hope for. but he's ruled out running why? i don't know i mean, you have to look forward to august, when the republican primary debates begin, and wonder what kind of masochist would want to be on the stage with trump it would have to weigh on your mind that trump, you know, as i think david axelrod said recently, when there is a food fight, he always brings more food you know, that's not -- that's not the best way of spending your summer if you have no chance of getting the nomination like mike pence. if you have some chance, it's still got to weigh on you. the only thing i'd say is if ron

desantis does continue to slowly self-d self-destruct, i imagine youngkin will have a lot of pressure from other republicans, like mcconnell, to get involved in this case >> all right ed luce, thank you very much still ahead on "morning joe," the u.s. military says it has successfully evacuated american diplomatic officials from sudan we're learning details about how the operation came together. plus, new reporting about ukraine's armed forces preparing for a counteroffensive against russia we'll talk to national security council spokesperson john kirby about these big developments overseas. also this morning, a look at how former president trump is defending his efforts to limit access to abortion this as his former vice president draws a direct contrast between himself and trump on the issue >> they're getting a little extreme. >> yeah. >> you can't even look at each

other. don't look at each other >> and -- >> don't even look at each other. it's weird they are racing towards political irrelevance, regardless of how you feel on this issue read the room. >> yeah. >> you lose everything if you are politically irrelevant. also ahead, a top senate democrat calls out supreme court justice clarence thomas, saying the allegations about accepting gifts from a wealthy donor shows a clear conflict of interest you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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together, we achieve more for our values than any administration in the history of our country, and it's not even close. i faced down violent acts to confirm our three great supreme court justices, neil gorsuch, brett kavanaugh and amy coney barrett. last year, after decades of work by organizations like yours, those justices delivered a landmark victory for protecting innocent life. nobody thought it was going to happen they thought it'd be another 50 years. because republicans had been trying to do it for exactly that period of time, 50 years from my first day in office, i took historic action to protect the unborn >> i'm pro life. i will tell ya, i was in the congress of the united states. i was certainly supportive of any pro life legislation that came before me i do think it's more likely that this issue is resolved at the

state level, but i don't agree with the former president, who says this is a states only issue. i mean, we've been given a new beginning for life in this country. i think we have an opportunity to advance the sanctity of life. >> i think the republican party will be in good standing to oppose late-term abortion, like most of the civilized world. >> just for the record, roe went up to viability, but i want to button this up >> no, that's -- no, no, quit covering for these guys. no, no, no you're media and keep covering for these guys they introduce legislation that allowed abortion on demand with taxpayer-funded, you paying for it, up to the moment of birth. that was their position in washington that's the law they want to pass, and nobody in your business will talk about it. it's barbaric. >> senator, senator, i'm not covering for anybody you know that. when i have democrats on, and

i've had democrats on -- >> just report for the facts. >> -- i have asked many, all of them, about their position on where they believe this issue should be. my question for you, sir -- >> i can tell you how they -- >> my question for you, sir, is about president trump, who you've endorsed to be president again. is he right in saying this issue should be a state's issue? >> he said yesterday, i think in his speech in iowa, he opposes late-term abortion here is what i believe anybody running for president who has a snowball's chance in hell in the 2024 primary is going to be with me, the american people and all of europe, saying late-term abortions should be off the table. >> you know, it's interesting, somebody said somewhere, it's fascinating how much -- how angry and incensed a 67-year-old bachelor with no children gets over the health care of women,

young women, teenagers, sometimes tragically 10-year-old, 11-year-old rape victims. >> how about women right now who have abnormalities and illnesses that cannot get the health care they need right now? >> the doctors sent them home, despite the horrific -- >> having a baby that will not be viable. >> -- situation those doctors are putting them in because of the radicalism. >> right now. >> right now again, it's really something, how, again, a 67-year-old bachelor with no children suddenly is so incensed about how a 14-year-old girl and her family handles her being raped by an uncle, if we want to use the example that the republican candidate in michigan used as the great reason why we have to have forced births of rape

victims' children. it's crazy by the way, donald trump, there's some somersaults going on there. >> there's some major somersaults. >> here's a guy, "i'm the biggest champion." yet, this is a guy who was screaming when he found out they were going to overturn roe v. wade he said it was going to be a political nightmare. said it was going to be a political nightmare. >> forgot about that. >> he blamed pro life voters for the democrats losses in 2022 interesting, some somersaults going on there, as usual. in the months since the supreme court overturned roe v. wade, voters responded by upholding abortion rights in every state that put it on the ballot now, anti-abortion activists are trying a new tactic for upcoming ballots, moving the goalposts or avoiding the voters all together "the new york times" reports republican-controlled

legislatures and anti-abortion groups are trying to stay one step ahead by making it harder to pass the measures or to get them on the ballot at all. the first state to test this new strategy is ohio a coalition of abortion rights groups pushing to get a vote on a constitutional amendment in november that would stop the state from being able to ban abortion before 24 weeks. >> why i'll tell you why. because 65% of americans believe abortion should be legal in most or all cases, and that means it would very likely pass in ohio they just need a simple ma majority as "the new york times" writes, mika, republicans in the state legislature are advancing a ballot amendment on their own that would raise a percentage of votes required to pass future measures to a super majority because they know they're in the minority. >> similar efforts to block citizen votes are happening in

at least five other states it's hard not to get really angry about this as we all know, as americans know, and this is an issue, you know, i believe -- i disagree a little bit i think trump's lies still fester among the population, and we can talk about that another time but this story has cut through the american culture, american society, because women under understand what they need for their health care. they need mifepristone they need access to abortion it's not just, as i said, one late-term pregnancy by somebody who doesn't feel like having a baby that's not what it's about we all know this we all know this we all know there are women right now who will have to carry to term dead fetuses because they cannot get a termination. >> they can't get basic medical -- >> a 67-year-old white man,

bachelor, decides that for her >> yeah. >> and her family. >> you know, this really follows up on what i said earlier this morning, about the fact that, ed luce, republicans know they've lost america seven of the last eight presidential campaigns, they lost the popular vote. they were in the minority. you look at madeleine albright's p funeral. what do you see there? you see candidates there, and you take al gore, as well, and, you know, they won in -- well, they won in '92. bill clinton won the popular vote in '92. in '96 al gore won the popular vote in 2000 barack obama won the popular vote in 2008 obama won the popular vote in

2012 hillary clinton won the popular vote in 2016 joe biden won the popular vote in 2020. speaking of bill clinton, i interviewed him for my special tonight, but i asked him about abortion he said, well, you put this up to the voters so they can't say it's, oh, all those extremists put it up for the voters he talked about it in 2000, when george w. bush easily won colorado, but they had a pro choice referendum on the ballot, which easily won in colorado you look at the numbers on roe v. wade. you look at the numbers on guns, on red flag laws, on universal background checks. you just put those three referendum up in 50 states, they would pass in 45 of them

comfortably. republicans know this. they know they lose in a democratic election. that's why they're so anti-democratic in so many ways. now, they're trying to stop the one person, one vote reality that this country was supposed to be built on, ed here's the perfect example of it they know in ohio, they put this up for a referendum, they lose just like kansas >> kansas. >> yet, they now are working as hard as they can to subvert the will of the people in ohio >> so my theory, sort of grand theory of republican politics, is that the big funders, the koch brothers, now the koch brother, ken griffin, people like that, the really big donors are not in this for culture at all. they're not really interested in those issues they're in this for deregulation

and low taxes. but those things don't win an election ultra libertarian positions don't win elections. they just don't poll well with the average voter. the average voter is kind of center-center left on economics. you know, they want medicare and medicaid they would like family leave and sick leave and paid vacation and stuff. that polls pretty well health care, public health care polls pretty well. but that's not what the kochs and the ken griffins want. so the way they get the support of blue collar voters, particularly white blue collar voters, is to rile them up on the culture wars i think this is -- this strategy being taken to its most absurd, extreme conclusion ultimately, it's a failing strategy it hasn't always failed. look at where the tax rates are.

look where the estate tax kicks in it's not -- it's not failed from the big donor perspective. it's not failed them yet i think, though, you're right, this is on a hiding to nothing you cannot go against people's views on abortion right this and expect to win elections. >> ed, mara gay here from "the new york times." curious, do you think there is an opportunity for the democrats to point this out? i mean, it's not been since the trump tax cuts where you saw, you know, billionaires getting even richer, buying bigger yachts, doubling the size of yachts in nantucket. i saw that with my own eyes the summer after i mean, is there an opportunity there for the democrats? what is the winning democratic response or strategy to what you're describing? that dynamic is very real. you've got donors who are kind of whispering in mitch mcconnell's ears what they really want, then feeding red

meat to the republican base. >> that's a really, really good question i mean, i think the way for them to play this is to sort of stick to principles in terms of fighting racism, homophobia, misogyny, and defending women's right to choose and so forth these are essential on principle grounds but also, you know, popular, i think, with a majority of americans. also, not to fall into the trap of the deceesantis and trumps, f becoming caricatures of themselves, in terms of getting stuck on debates about the trans issues they should have their position, which is to defend trans rights, but to treat this as a sort of -- the overwhelmingly important issue of our time is going to put people off. so you have to thread a needle there that shows support for the ordinary people of america, whatever color and whatever

gender and whatever orientation they are, but talk about issues that most americans consider to be everyday issues >> matt lewis, you're one of the keenest observers of the republican party want to get your take there on how abortion is playing out, again, with the backdrop of this effort in the states but as we've been discussing, it is so out of step with where the american public is writ large. is this just going to doom republicans at the ballot box in national elections in 2024 and going forward? >> so this is one of those cases where i have my conservative hat and my political analyst hat they're a little bit different i am pro life. i actually would push back a little bit on the conversation today, which is to say, i do believe that there is a ton of weirdness happening in the republican party, obviously. like, the american right today is decadent and depraved

i do believe that the pro life cause, there are a lot of honorable people out there, good, decent people who care deeply about the life of the unborn they want to have a culture of life i believe that this should be something that transcends just the unborn it should be part of that, but compassion for all sorts of people you know, the immigrant, the widow, how about people who don't want to be shot when they open or knock on a door? all of these things are part of a culture of life. i think that there are people who are legitimate conservatives, who are willing to lose elections if it means that they've accomplished this goal that, frankly, took us 50 years to get to. i think there's something noble in that. having said that, from a political standpoint, this is incredibly dangerous right now for the republican party for a couple reasons one, i think there's just a predicted backlash that is going

to come. you know, sometimes in politics, winning is losing, losing is win winning. for a long time, i think the pro life forces had the advantage politically, right we felt like we lost in 1973 we felt like roe was not a good decision i think that that gave the pro life side the energy and the ground troops, quite frankly now, that has changed. i think the energy is on the other side the other problem, i think, is that because the republican party and the right has become so deranged and weird, just plain weird, that it's hard to -- it's really conflated these messages, right? and so it's hard to be a pro life conservative in a party with donald trump who has sex with porn stars and pays off porn stars, and with herschel walker, who fathered all of these out of wedlock children.

then you have someone like ron desantis, and, again, now i'll put my political consultant, you know, political hat on the 15-week ban that florida had was -- most propplauded that a s ago. it would have been a big win, a 15-week ban. that could have been a mainstream position that could have been popular or at least defensible moving to six weeks, forget what i said about my principles from a machiavellian political standpoint, i think what is going to happen is, if donald trump is the republican nominee, the democrats will destroy him a., he is donald trump b, he is a threat to liberal democracy. now, if ron desantis manages to become the nominee, it's going to be all about abortion, and they're going to have a pretty good argument against him. >> yeah. matt, let me just say, we all know -- i think we all here -- i don't want to speak for

anybody -- but most of the people i know that are engaged in politics know people who are pro life, who are pro life because they do believe in their heart that life begins at conception or they believe that protection should come in at some point, and you are right. you look at most polls, most americans support a 15-week limit and a 15-week ban, then exceptions after that. if you just look at the polling, the american people's feelings on this track with europe, where europe, most of europe is on abortion but you would have to agree with me, i would assume, like my pro life relatives that i spoke with over easter, that especially the women who were just horrified, horrified by the extremist position state legislatures were taking that would make

10-year-old girls flee ohio, that would make women at great health risk carry fetuses that are no longer viable to term that they would be, like, in severe duress and be sent out of an emergency room. and i -- so, no one is doubting the fact that people of good faith are pro life, but it's been taken to such an extreme that they've lost the middle of america. i mean, do you agree with david french -- >> yeah. >> -- that the problem is, this was ruled by judicial fiat, and you have a movement that never won the hearts and minds of americans, never made the political argument it was just passed down by judicial fiat. >> i think that's exactly right, joe. and i think, you know, part of it is what you just said it was passed down i think part of it is, frankly,

that the pro life community spent 50 years trying to overturn roe, but it's kind of like winning the war but you don't win the peace. we weren't prepared for what happens, like, after the regime falls. how do we win the peace? how do we win the hearts and minds? there was very little work done there on building a culture of life having a plan forward. you would have thought we had time, but no one was focused on it really. how do you have time to implement, you know, a compassionate response that is common sense, that could win middle america over? very little time was done on that then the other problem, joe, is that if roe had been overturned 20 years ago, let's say then george w. bush was coming in, and compassionate conservatism was the ethos, the mentality of the republican party, then maybe it would have looked different but roe was overturned at the exact moment when the republican

party was being much more radical, much more mean spirited, and maybe even especially true at the state level. so it was really kind of a perfect storm, and, you know, again, i'll say, i think that there are a lot of pro life americans out there who are, you know, compassionate and deeply believe in this cause. but from a political standpoint, it was -- it is going to be a rough road ahead politically, certainly. >> matt lewis, thank you for being on this morning. we'll see you again soon thank you. we turn now to sudan american personnel have been evacuated from the embassy in sudan, where a civil conflict between military forces enters week two president biden announced on twitter he ordered the evacuations, saying the violence in sudan had already cost hundreds of innocent lives and

called for an immediate cease-fire since the conflict broke out on the 15th, the associated press reports more than 400 people have died and nearly 4,000 others have been injured joining us now, former sk er cia officer marc polymeropoulos, and visiting fellow in international diplomacy at brookings insti institution, jeffrey felton, working under the secretary general for political affairs. we'll start there. jeffrey feldman, what is happening in sudan, can you plain what the fighting is about? >> it's a lust for power between two generals and two security military institutions. the two generals were partners, uneasy partners in trying to direct the transition that took place after omar bashir was

overthrown from power four years ago by these heroic public protests, citizens protests. these two generals had institutional rivalries. jep jealousies, et cetera. they were united in making sure they never had to report to civilian authority they were working together in order to try to thwart the civilian ambitions for democracy, for democratic rule then the unanswered question between this is who would prevail? you're seeing the fight on the ground between these two security services, the army and a paramilitary force it's basically a clash for power in which the civilians of sudan are the collateral damage. >> marc, we know the u.s.

evacuated personnel over the weekend, but there are thousands of americans still there what is your concern level for them also, the security implications going forward for the region as this violence continues. >> well, first and foremost, you know, really well done to my former colleagues in the u.s. government who often don't get a lot of public recognition. these are members of, you know, naval special warfare, the intelligence community, the diplomatic security service, and, of course, just the regular embassy personnel and army special forces, as well. a ballet of capabilities that allowed this to happen there are 70 plus u.s. families and diplomats who are now safe it is extraordinary. this doesn't happen, you know, overnight. there's a lot of planning that goes into this now, there are still remaining american citizens in sudan you know, one of the things -- and jeff knows this -- we never have an accurate, actual count if an american citizen doesn't register at the embassy, we don't know if they're there.

there will be efforts made you know, we certainly have seen reports on perhaps getting information to u.s. citizens on the ground for land evacuation routes, perhaps to port sudan. you know, we're not going to leave everybody high and dry this is probably just the first step in what is a long process in trying to get americans out this is what happens in the third world, you know, the middle east and africa where i served, where certainly jeff served a lot of planning goes into this, and sometimes the ball goes up. we do have to get our people up and get americans out, as well >> so, can i ask either of you or both, in horrific humanitarian situations like this, there's also opportunities for bad actors to exploit the situation. the russian wagner group, there are reports that they are stepping up their activities there involved on the paramilitary side of this fight between generals there is, of course, a lot of

gold deposits in sudan, which the wagner group are skilled at exploiting in other parts of war-torn africa. and russia itself has aspirations for a naval base there at port sudan. do you have intelligence on the degree to which the russians -- well, the wagner group, in particular, the mercenary russian group, are fermenting the situation there on the ground >> without doubt, ed, he's there. they've worked with the russians on gold smuggling out of sudan via the middle east. without question there's no doubt that the head of wagner has been involved for quite some time. hamedi was present if moscow the day the russians invaded ukraine. on the other hand, i think that the real risk here is that all

of the neighbors, many powers, will start to choose sides right now, at the beginning of this, nobody wanted to see civil war or clashes between the military and sudan whatever side people may have been on in terms of what the transition should look like, countries, leaders, wanted to see sudan stable this is the third largest country geographically in africa, 46 million people. 10% of the world's trade goes along its shores through the red sea. it's a strategically important country with a large population. nobody wanted to see this country destabilized but the longer this fight goes on, it will become almost irresistible for some countries to say, well, if the generals are going to fight, if these services are going to fight, i guess we better try to put our fingers on the scales one way or the other, to try to make sure that one prevails over the dmeny

favor. not only will you have a higher cost in terms of the civilians being killed, injured, unable to access food or water, but you'll have a higher likelihood that not only russia but other countries, other leaders, other forces are going to start to try to intervene on behalf of one general or the other >> marc, i visited sudan in 2001 when the controversy was between christians and muslims and the allegations that people were being penalized based on their religion so i got to know some of the human rights activists there the question i'm raising to you is, as we see this battle with the two generals, what is happening on the ground, if anything, to protect the citizens because this is not a battle that is engaged between a democratic process with citizens it is two generals seeking autocratic power what is happening to protect the rights of the people on the ground, and should the united states and others, as we are

trying to protect getting our people out, be concerned about what happens to the populists in sudan? >> well, of course sudan, you know, this is a tragedy that is unfolding. you know, there's considerable death and certainly incredible concern that a civil war is going to break out and we're going to see, you know, things on the ground which we certainly don't want to have occur i think the international community is going to be more involved there's thought that perhaps we were not so for some time. look, at the end of the day, it is going to be kind of africa, the region, who is going to have to jump in, as jeff said before. there's a lot of players involved sometimes when you have this power competition, things go awry i will throw one other kind of word of caution here one of the reasons, i think, there's concern in the u.s. counterterrorism community is failed states, states at civil war, are breeding grounds for terr terrorism. there is a problem with isis on

the african continent. we see that problem growing. we see cells metastasizing at the end of the day, there's a humanitarian tragedy that is occurring, but also, i think there is a worry about another failed state and what that means in the counterterrorism arena. something the u.s. government is going to be watching very closely. >> all right former cia officer marc polymeropoulos and former u.s. special envoy for the horn of africa, jeffrey feltman, thank you, both, very much for helping us break down this developing story. ed luce, thank you, as well, for being on in the past hour. it is just past the top of the second hour of "morning joe. jonathan lemire, mara gay and reverend al sharpton are still with us. new polling shows most republicans still support donald trump's 2024 presidential campaign despite his mounting legal trouble. in the latest nbc news survey, 68% of gop primary voters say the investigations into trump are politically motivated. they must support him in 2024 to

stop his opponents from winning. on the flip side, 26% say the party should nominate someone other than trump who isn't distracted by legal issues and can make defeating joe biden their sole focus overall, trump is still the top choice of 46% of republican voters on the democratic side, president joe biden is expected to formally launch his re-election campaign as early as tomorrow, setting the stage for a possible 2020 rematch. according to nbc news polling, the majority of americans don't want biden or trump to be on the ticket in 2024 with most citing his age 70% of adults say biden should not run for re-election, while 60% say trump shouldn't run. overall, americans still view biden in a better light than trump. 38% have a positive opinion of

the current opinion, compared to 48% who view him negatively. for trump, 34% view him positively, while 53% have a negative opinion of him. in a hypothetical general election matchup, 47% say they would vote for the eventual republican nominee, while 41% say they'd back biden. let's bring in the former chair of the new hampshire gop, jennifer horn. i want to start with understanding what's going on here we talked last hour a little bit about a media ecosystem that promulgates trump's lies is it something else is trump their guy >> well, i think the last line is it, trump's their guy this is tribalism on tersteroids

what the republicans are essentially saying is, i'd rather have authoritarianism they'd rather have somebody who is bold enough to steal votes, somebody who disregards democracy over party loyalty or political power. that's what the republicans want you know, these numbers are shocking when you look at them and think about what they mean the republicans are making it very clear, and, you know, my worry are those voters out there who are looking at donald trump and biden, you know, through the same lens. they're both, you know, a little older than what we normally see in the white house gee, they're equally unappealing. they're not equal. i respect that folks are concerned about them both, but they're not equal. donald trump is a danger to democracy. that's what the gop wants.

>> michael, we may hear from president biden tomorrow that he's running for re-election we went through the polls. there's not a lot of enthusiasm behind that bid right now, despite democrats who say, look, he's done a good job but we're not sure we want another four years of this. they often cite his age. if he is going to do this, what should it be is it more than, "i'm not donald trump" >> that's a big part of it negative partisanship note va ms a lot of votes in this polarized day and age. a lot of people will vote against trump. biden can do two things. one, he can run on his record which is formidable. he passed a lot of legislation his leadership on ukraine has been exemplary 12 million jobs has been great he has a lot to brag about, but it's not enough. he has to make it about the future, as well. you know, the wrong track number in the country is really high. it is around 70%

there may be different reasons why people say that, but that's a big number and these concerns about his age are real the enthusiasm m iisn't great. there's more enthusiasm in the party than rank and file voters. the party has to make an affirmative case about what they'll do in the second term, promise specific things. say, "if you elect us, give us the white house, give us the majority in congress, we'll do these six, eight or ten things, and we'll do them for you, middle class voter." >> michael, i agree with that. but i also think it is not part of the argument that the democrats can raise, that this is the vision we have for america as opposed to the grievance candidacy of trump because you've covered trump, me and everybody for the last many years. you know donald trump really has no vision for america.

he's playing on the grievance of people there is no real vision there. whereas, if biden can sell not only the six to eight things that are the goals, it's the goals based on the vision of the america we want to have, not just griping on you feel like you're getting ready to be canceled or you're getting ready to be irrelevant. >> that's right, al. i think it'll make a stark contrast with trump. trump's campaign is going to be a apocalyptic and negative. i watched my first hour in the hotel room fox will carry on about budlight commercials and hunter biden's laptop there's not going to be a vision on how to help working class people emanating from the trump campaign to the extent biden and the democrats can do that and make that the center of their campaign, then i think that will make a striking contrast to swing voters it's going to come down to swing voters in a few states these are people who, you know,

went from obama to trump, maybe to biden and might consider going back again i think those voters don't really want to see donald trump in the white house again whatever their reservations about joe biden, i think if he and the democrats present an affirmative vision for the future, think he'll get most of those votes. >> so jennifer horn, is this the reality for republican primary voters is this it trump's their guy? is there a republican candidate with a vision for the country that could distract them from donald trump >> well, certainly not in the race so far there isn't. you know, we look at the candidates who are already running, and none of them are, you know, setting the stage on fire in any way. i think that they all made a strategic mistake, frankly, from the beginning, when they're running campaigns based on, i'm like trump you can get what you want, like about trump from me, without having to get trump. we see that from -- they're defending trump. you know, they're promoting

their time in his administration, how they're like him. they don't want anyone like trump. these numbers are clear. they want trump himself. that's what they're looking for. >> so let's -- the question -- i'll turn this question to our next guest do they have to be trumpy? let's bring in staff writer at "the atlantic," mark bleibovich. you sat down with chris christie i don't think he wants to talk about trump at all, and is that a winning proposition? >> well, i mean, he -- so i wrote a piece. it was a weird piece it was a -- we had breakfast, and he started yelling at me when i asked him questions about trump, which were pretty straightforward. then, you know, the next two days, went up to new hampshire and talked quite a bit about donald trump i mean, a guy like chris christie, i mean, i don't quite know what he's thinking, but he could be compelling compared to other kind of also rand candidates who aren't showing up

in the polls now and might never. he is actually a compelling guy. he is interesting on his feet. he has history with donald trump. he was close to him in the white house, certainly during the campaign in '16 and in '20, and knows how to get under donald trump's skin i don't think chris christie is going to win i don't know if chris christie is going to run. he'll have an answer in a couple weeks he said. i do think there is a case to be made that someone, whether it is christie or anyone else, should get into the race and start hitting really, really hard against donald trump one thing we've seen about desantis, pence, you know, some of the people who haven't really had a good, you know -- haven't done much, as jennifer said, haven't set the stage on fire, they have no idea how to go after donald trump it's been a flaccid showing so far from these folks to the outside eye at least, it looks like donald trump is running effectively unopposed again, and it is getting fairly late yes, it is april on the calendar, but at some point, you

need to, you know, actually go after the front runner. >> to be fair to the former new jersey governor, mark leibovich, i understand the instinct to yell at you. i do want to say, ask you, though, about ron desantis, who you mentioned. he's had a failure to launch here he's really struggled in recent weeks. it was a few months ago, he was perceived as the hope of the anti-republican forces republicans you talk to, what is your assessment of him so far, and do they see a chance for a course correction? >> there is a chance for a course correction, but, no, you're right there has been a lot of sort of -- you know, he's gotten mixed reviews at best about what he's done. i mean, i personally never thought that the desantis boom of a few months ago was real, just because most people didn't know decron desantis people who did said once he gets out of the safe borders of florida, people who know him say that he's not a terribly compelling candidate his story is extremely undrawn

he can be extremely clumsy, all of which he has proven yeah, i mean, desantis, you know, still has an opportunity he's still seen, widely, as probably the top alternative to trump, but he's got to get going and figure out who he wants to be, what candidate he is, and actually, you know, preferably lay some gloves on donald trump. >> yeah. mark, mara gar here gay here fe times. we've been talking about how extreme republican positions are compared to the overall electorate in the country. do you have any sense, talking to all of these republicans, of what the pivot plan is here to the general election whether it is trump or someone else, how are they going to make this pivot to the american people it is hard to see. >> my sense is they haven't pivoted to the campaign against trump. otherwise, trump is going to tiptoe to the nomination again, and he's not much of a pivoter, as we've seen over the years yeah, what's interesting about

republicans is, in addition to the sort of fringe base issues, like budlight and, you know, hunter biden's laptop and have w -- what have you, they're set on general election issues, whether it's abortion, whether it is same sex marriage, which they seem to be wanting to relitigate you know, things like climate, things like guns i mean, they are all -- if you look at background checks, something basic, there is a consensus of 80% of the country that thinks it should be harder for people to get ak-47s -- or ar-47s, bring them into public places and sohoot them up it's a settled consensus at this point. you have the top republican candidates, you know, loin -- lining up to go to the nra convention to out-gun the others at the top of the republican base, if you want to call it that, or the bottom.out-gun thef

the republican base, if you want to call it that, or the bottom then christie who didn't even though what to say on the issue, wasn't invited to the conference >> jennifer horn, final thoughts donald trump becomes, you know, the nominee again, what happens to your party and you in your party? >> well, i have to say, the -- there's not a lot of room for me in the republican party anymore. you know, i think the bigger, final thought from me would be directed at the democrats right now, frankly, just because if we go into a presidential election where both candidates are lacking the overall enthusiasm of a general election audience, then turnout becokcomes a big issue. we know that for donald trump, his base, his 34% are extremely enthu enthusiastic and extremely loyal.

one of the points made earlier, the democrats are the ones i worry about right now. they have got to get on it, what their message is going to be and what they're going to do to build the enthusiasm for their candidate. >> former chair of the new hampshire republican party, jennifer horn, thank you very much and the new republic's michael tomasey, thank you for being on. we appreciate it. ahead on "morning joe," much more on the u.s. evacuations from sudan what we are learning this morning about the rescue mission that took place amid fierc fighting there national security council spokesperson john kirby standing by, and he joins us ahead to weigh in on those developments plus, ukraine says russia is forcibly evacuating civilians from occupied regions of the south. what that could mean for the stay of state of the war. plus, a plane that took off in ohio makes an emergency landing after the engine caught fire oh, my god, look at that we'll explain what happened.

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a plane heading to phoenix was forced to return to the airport in columbus, ohio, after taking off a bird may have hit the engine and sparked a fire it was one of two airplane fires caught on camera in the past week nbc news correspondent jesse kirsch has the details >> reporter: the midair scare captured on camera just after takeoff from columbus, ohio. >> that is affirmative we, lost the number two engine n the bird strike with high vibration. >> reporter: flames shoot ing alongside an american airlines plane, flames shooting from the engine the scene was recorded by a passenger before the plane made

an emergency landing. >> my heart just broke, honestly, for so many people on the plane. i could hear them crying i just wanted us to all be okay. >> reporter: according to american airlines, the flight turned around, landed normally, and taxied safely to the gate under its own power. american adding, safety is our top priority when you landed and were able to get off the plane, how relieving was that >> just -- i mean, you're going to bring tears to my eyes. i was just so thankful >> reporter: felicia meadows was heading on her honeymoon. >> ready to get back on a plane? >> i am not. i'm very anxious still very, very anxious i'm going to have to buckle up and just ride it out >> engine is on fire. >> reporter: it comes after these flames flashed from beneath the wing of another american airlines flight in charlotte thursday on the runway just before takeoff. american says takeoff was aborted with a mechanicalish shoo you the plane making it safely to the gate. >> i totally acknowledge seeing flames is a scary situation.

but that fear factor does not convert into actual high risk. these professionals are prepared to deal with that situation and keep the airplane safe. >> oh, my god. nbc's jesse kirsch with that report. time now to look at the morning papers we begin in oklahoma, where the "tulsa world's" top story covers red flag laws. bills to create red flag laws have languished in most statehouses across the country despite bipartisan support at least 30 states have not passed the laws despite many of them receiving millions in federal funding to help create and implement them in florida, "the miami herald" is taking a look at governor ron desantis's ongoing fight with disney it points out that desantis has increasingly sought to punish those who cross him or get in

the way of his agenda. and with an expected 2024 campaign launch coming, this retaliatory reflex raises questions about how he would govern in washington, a town where deal-making skills are essential. and in ohio, "the columbus dispatch" is reporting on a new effort to increase school safety a republican state senator plans to introduce legislation this week that would mandate new standards for doors and locks on school buildings the lawmaker said, quote, the best way to defeat an attack and protect our children in the classroom is to make sure the attacker never gets inside the building in the first place. and "milwaukee's journal sentinel" is looking to address a nursing shortage the department of work force development announced a new apprenticeship program to help those who want to pursue a career in nursing but cannot afford to. as part of the program, all

tuition books and supplies will be covered, as well as full-time salaries and benefits. sad news from the world of dance. len goodman, the long-time judge on "dancing with the stars" has died goodman's agent confirmed his death to nbc news this morning, saying he had been diagnosed with bone cancer the british ballroom dancer died peacefully surrounded by his family in a kent hospital on saturday goodman was a popular judge on the bbc's hit show, "strictly come dancing" for 12 years from its launch in 2004 around the same time he was on the u.s. version of the show, "dancing with the stars" for 15 years. he made a name for himself as tough, often a curmudgeon. he retired last year to spend more time with his family in the

uk goodman was 78 years old coming up, dozens of u.s. personnel are out of sudan this morning following a tense evacuation over the weekend. we'll talk to national security council spokesperson john kirby about the operation and the possibility of more missions to remove other americans caught up in the conflict. "morning joe" is cominrig ght back so you only pay for what you need. with the money we saved, we tried electric unicycles. i think i've got it! doggy-paddle! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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correspondent richard engel has the latest >> reporter: after cease-fires collapsed sudan's capital,

khartoum, this morning, it's an open war zone. there's fighting in the streets and at the airport, which remains closed there's no power or running water. phone and internet service are largely down it's a nightmare scenario, as nations around the world struggle to evacuate personnel france, italy, germany, spain and others carrying out successful flights, bringing out their citizens and some americans. this weekend, the united states launched a rescue mission to the u.s. embassy in khartoum, which is now closed. special operations flying 800 miles from djibouti to sedan, arriving just after midnight on sunday on the embassy grounds, where three chinook helicopters evacuated 80 government personnel and their families it took around an hour there were no reports of injuries or incidents. but there are still roughly ly 16,000 american citizens in sudan, many dual nationals they're sheltering in place. for now, there are no plans for

a mass rescue. an american travel writer was visiting sudan and is stuck. she managed to send us this video this morning >> the city is so tense right now. a lot of people are fleeing left and right. i can see the cars outside i'm actually making arrangements to try to get out, as well, to an area outside of the city that is safer i have no power, running water, and the most difficult thing is that there has been internet blackouts. i'm not feeling too great about the help i've received from the embassy at the moment. so i'm just preparing to go it alone and figure out how i can get myself to safety >> reporter: the fighting is overpowered. two of sudan's top generals who took over in a coup and promised to transition to civilian rule are now battling among themselves for control of the country rich in oil and gold there's a risk of state collapse and a return to civil war. >> joining us now, national security council coordinator for

strategic communications at the white house, retired rear admiral john kirby admiral, can you tell us about the evacuations and how risky they were, and what now are the options for other americans still in sudan >> this was a very risky operation to get our diplomats out over the weekend, mika that's why we did it during a period of darkness they why we made it clear to both warring factions, what we were doing and, just as critically, what we weren't doing. we were sipamply getting our diplomats out and urged them to let us do it safely. we made it clear we'd protect ourselves if we came under foir. it was a dangerous mission, but nobody hurt, injured, and everybody out safely look, we are still looking at options. we have military assets still in the region nearby, should they be needed. but this is not the time to be conducting some sort of mass evacuation you've seen the images out of

khartoum it is dangerous and very violent. for those americans who didn't heed our warnings to get out and not to travel to sudan, our best advice is stay sheltered in place, find a place you can hunker down, and stay safe do not walk the streets of khartoum we will keep you informed. if you haven't reached out to the statedepartment, please do so we'll keep you informed on the conditions on the ground and guide you, the best we can, to other evacuation routes as possible several dozen americans are now participating in a u.n.-led convoy on its way to port sudan. the united states military is providing overwatch through aerial systems of the convoy, so we can keep tabs on it we'll position naval assets off the sport of sudan to help americans wanting to leave. >> admiral, help me understand something about the americans who stayed there first of all, love to know how many americans are there secondly, why are they still there? this reminds me of afghanistan,

where americans were warned in the harshest terms for six months to get out of afghanistan. they didn't get out of afghanistan, then we had people screaming on other networks, "you left people behind in afghanistan. of course, we won't talk about -- we were critical of afghanistan, so i'm not giving a free pass. i'm just asking, why do americans continue to stay in these countries when they are warned repeatedly to get out how many americans are still in sudan? >> you're right. we did really ramp up the warnings back in the fall, in october, advising americans, again, repeatedly not to travel to sudan if you were, get out thedeteriorating. the fighting broke out a week ago saturday, joe, but it is very, very dangerous we don't know how many americans are in sudan they don't have to register with us and tell us they are. there's estimates of more than 10,000, anywhere in the neighborhood of 15,000 to 16,000 potentially. it's important for people to remember that the vast majority of those are dual nationals.

they have citizenship in the united states but also in sudan. most of them grew up there they have families are, businesses there they work, go to school there, and they have no intention of leaving or wanting to depart. >> gotcha. all right, understand com completely what are the dangers of sudan and the unrest there spreading throughout sudan and beyond the borders? >> that's a real concern right now, these two warring factions are really going at it. mostly in khartoum there's fighting elsewhere in the country, but it's largely confined to khartoum, and it is very, very violent but this could erupt into a civil war. of course, sudan is a very big country on the african con continent, surrounded by seven neighbors, and it is possible this could spread elsewhere. we're seeing signs that potentially other partners who have interests amenable to ours and also opposites are trying to tip the scales one way or the other. what we have been clear with the military leaders, this is a time

to put the weapons down, abide by the cease-fires you both say you want, and get a transition to civilian authority in sudan that's what the sudanese people want. >> there's a report out that russia is filling america's void in africa. the wagner group is moving aggressively to establish a confederation of anti-western states in africa as russian mercenariyies launch instability to bolster moscow's allies that was part of what was leaked china has been trying to get a one-up on us in africa for 15 years now. now, "the washington post" reporting that the russians are doing the same there i suspect if the united states doesn't start moving more aggressively diplomatically, we're going to see chaos like this for some time to come i know the vice president was just over there, important trip. >> that's right. >> does the administration plan

to have a much more active presence in africa moving forward diplomatically >> we absolutely are, joe. in fact, we've got that motion in train right now you mentioned the vice president's trip the president plans to go to africa here in the not-too-distant future we just hosted in december the african leaders summit before that summit was even over, designated and individual special envoy to work on the coordination efforts we put forth in the leader summit, whether it is climate change, food security, energy security, technology, innovation, all those things we are investing heavily in the african continent and will continue to do that. we know, as you just said, that russia and china would like nothing better than to diminish our influence in the african continent for their own selfish purposes and the african nations, joe, they're waking up to this. many countries that signed on to the chinese loans, now the interest is coming due and they can't pay it and chinese are saying, "i guess we have to take this, that or that from you,"

people are waking up to the selfish interest of russia and china in the continent >> admiral, we'd love to talk to you about ukraine. there's new reporting on a possible spring counteroffensive from ukrainian forces. this is "the wall street journal" reporting, that ukraine is now preparing to dislodge russian forces from entrenched positions in a bid to regain land "the journal" notes while russia controls 18% of ukraine's territory, it is not known where exactly ukraine will move to expel russian forces or when according to one ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy's advisers, three factors will determine how a counteroffensive would unfold the availability of equipment, availability of troops and the destruction of russian assets. meanwhile, ahead of that anticipated ukrainian counteroffensive, russian troops are reportedly evacuating civilians from occupied areas of the south, including near the

city of kherson. a ukrainian official tells "the new york times" troops are forcibly relocating people, possibly indicating that moscow could be preparing to further withdraw from the region >> admiral, as the spring counteroffensive starts to come about, is that your read, what we saw there, that evacuations are beginning in areas around kherson because the russians are planning to evacuate >> we're seeing similar reports. this isn't evacuating citizens this is forcibly removing them and relocating them. we've seen similar reports we have to get a little more context on this, but that is absolutely not unusual for the russians to do, to move in, to claim they're looking after the safety and security of civilians. ukrainians that live in the towns, they're just forcing them out because they want to start moving on militarily look, you're right the ukrainians have said they want to conduct some counteroffensive operations in

the spring, in the weeks and months ahead we want to make sure they're successful in doing that just last week, another $325 million worth of equipment, ammunition and some logistical equipment to help them do that we're training whole battalions of ukrainian soldiers outside of the country on combined arms maneuver you have armor capabilities and air defense, so they can operate in open terrain and really take back more of their country from the russians across that whole arc, from east to south. where they go and when they go, all that will be up for president zelenskyy to determine. we're doing everything we can, with allies and partners, to make sure they're ready for that. >> good morning. jonathan lemire. i want to get your response to a story that broke a short time ago. the anniversary of the war, february 24th, ukraine had hatched a plan to strike moscow itself and was talked out of that by the united states. can you tell us what you know about this >> well, i won't talk -- i can't

talk about these documents or the intelligence that unfortunately is out in the public domain, jonathan. what i can tell you is, and we have been clear about this privately with the ukrainians but publicly with all you, we do not encourage nor enable the ukrainians to strike outside their country into russia. we don't want to see this war escalate i think we can all agree that an escalation of this conflict, beyond the violence, it's already visited upon the ukrainian people it wouldn't be good for them or the region, for our national security interest either >> i wanted to ask you, admiral, finally, about something deeply disturbing that broke this weekend. the chinese ambassador to france saying that the countries in the former soviet union had no legal right to their own sovereignty it's been cleaned up a bit since then how jarring is that? >> yeah. >> and what questions does that raise about china respecting the

basic tenants of international law? >> you need to keep this in perspective, joe these are two countries, china and russia, not only are they getting closer together, which is not good for the rest of the world, but these are two countries that want to challenge outright the international rules-based order. i understand that sounds like diplo speak, but there is a rules-based order that's been in the u.n. charter that respects sovereignty around the world these are two countries that want to challenge the order, undermine it, reduce and diminish, not only in the united states and our influence around the world, but those of our allies and partners. that's the context from which a comment like that would come. >> all right >> white house national security council spokesperson john kirby. thank you so much for being on this morning great to see you up next, senator john fetterman makes his return to congress after being hospitalized for clinical depression we'll have a look inside his first week back on capitol hill. plus, the latest on the supreme court ethics controversy

surrounding justice clarence thomas "morning joe" will be ghrit back - are, are you qualified to do this? - what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - are you a certified financial planner™? - i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty.

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when a truck hit my car, the insurance company wasn't fair. i didid't t kn whahatmy c caswa, so i called the barnes firm. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to k how much their accident case is worth.h barnes. t ouour juryry aorneneys hehelpou

i was hit by a car get t tand needed help.oiblele. t ouour juryry aorneneys hehi called the barnes firm. that was the best call i could've made. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to know how much their accident case is let our injury attorneys know he how much their accident cget the best result possible. blah, blah, blah, go, wrexham, whatever go ahead. >> you're talking about all that's good with sports. fallen on hard economic times, the football club returns to the big leagues for the first time in 15 years thanks to hollywood powerhouse ryan reynolds always sunny in philadelphia'sc.

they've led in a thoughtful, joyous, humble way they've collected memories for generations of fans. the tiny welsh team, maybe move over dallas, cowboys wrexham could be america's team. beautiful. >> what do they move up to, what league now >> it's like being in single a, let's put it that way. for this town, the struggle economically, culturally, politically, to be back up is joyous a less dramatic game -- >> you know what, another team that strives hard and does as much as they can with what little they have, man city let's talk about them. >> yeah, fa cup. sheffield united rolled over this is like watching algerian taking a kick return to the house. he got a hat trick they won 3-0 the other game, manchester united the other team from that great

city went to penalties. >> oh. >> a rocket launch made no mistake with his joe, the fa cup final. first ever all manchester affair i can't think of anything to make that city - >> roger what do you got next for us? >> arsenal stumbling again bottom feeders southampton mistake for the goalkeeper arsenal came back to play manchester city on wednesday a game that will feel like ewoks being decimated. for fourth place, newcastle. now a saudi arabian investment

slapstick. look at that adorable english face on the care bear. delirium for newcastle 6-1. landslide, joe. >> yeah. so first of all, there's been a question from -- for months whether arsenal was able to hold up against onslaught of man city starting to slip a little bit. do you think arsenal has what it takes to hold on for another month? >> the city went out they are like ibm's big blue it is looking a big grim there's no romance in sport and fairytales got to find the joy, arsenal fans, where you can. >> let's bring in the highest

scoring player in premier league history, captain of the english national team and now analyst for "match of the day" show. what an honor to have you with us let's talk about newcastle roger much nicer to them now he says saudi arabia invested newcastle instead of slanderous statements. newcastle had a great first half stumbled a bit found the footing again this week in a real way what can you tell us about their move toward the top four >> after a disappointing result last weekend you have to come back epa make a statement. you have to reply. that was the perfect reply they were at home. they were cheered on by a magnificent crowd. 52,000 when that happens and off to a

new good start they are difficult to stop. they have a great attitude they go after teams. they look really fit and strong. they're tight and compact and made life very, very difficult for tottenham yesterday. it was newcastle being brilliant and tottenham being woefully poor. >> alan, roger bennet here great to see you so many american funds bought everything lisch football teams. some have been strategic and won things like the boston red sox winners but many liked to burly have been borderline disastrous. what would you advice be to american owners and aspiring american owners about ownership? >> the english premier league is

the best no doubt about that. the stadiums, the fans or the quality of players in our league and the managers to go with that when you look from where we started way back in 1992 to where we are now the expansion is just incredible it's a biggest, the best so yeah. i get why people want to invest in our league. and some have been successful. some haven't what happened at chelsea we found hard to believe with a new owner getting rid of the people there at chelsea he may have had his reasons. we don't know that but to do that and then bring in people who are not used to the premier league and certainly doesn't look used to it because of the strategy of buying almost every player on the market it was -- grim potter left with

an almost impossible job frank lam pert couldn't no to the situation. and telling the club what they are doing wrong because whoever comes in they have to trim down. it is impossible to try and coach that many players and keep them happy. >> alan, again, it is great to have you here. i'm also happy to get you here to get the disinterested view of what happened to my team this year why when i ask roger he's all in for everton so i'm not ringing the alarm bells yet. this is the same team chasing history. they looked lost at times. vandyke in the back who's a defensive god slowing down a

bit. maybe moved to midfield next year curious. what -- what do you think is happened to this team? which have so many great players a greatest coach, manager in the world? >> you are right what happened to them last season going for every single trophy up to the last couple weeks of the season. it had to have taken so much out of them and this season they looked very tired, leggy and the fact they didn't invest when they should have and particularly i think in the midfield positions that they lacked the protection, that back four was used to vandyke is out with an injury and came back and superb and haven't seen him near the form you expect

it's him and every single player they have looked a yard and been punished if they win every single game from now to the end of the season they might have a chance to get back to champions league football but probably miss out on next season and may impact whoever they want to bring in because they want to play champions league they might have to miss out and suffer why their football isn't near good enough for the standards they have set and some standards they have set is super high over the years that klopp has been there. >> alan, let me drill down even though my ep is telling me to go to break. >> top of the hour. >> chase off half of the 15 people still watching this i thought -- i'm curious if this is a thing

liverpool chasing four titles last year. played more than anybody else. they have to start early with the world cup in qatar suddenly they play around the clock. roger, stop laughing i'm trying to make an excuse for liverpool. chasing four titles. the legs are shock they have no break they have to come back early, on a bizarre schedule does that make sense >> no. not really >> darn! >> you can make all the excuses you want but that's not one of them. >> okay. >> premier league legend alan -- >> again, absolute legend. this is a great honor us roger, always -- >> great to be here. >> big out.

>> courage. >> not really. it's the top of the hour jonathan and reverend al still with us. this may be the week that president biden makes it official he is expected to announce as early as tomorrow that he is running for re-election for the presidency as the front-runners face daunting poll numbers peter alexander has the latest. >> reporter: as president biden prepares to launch the bid, new nbc news poll shows 70% of americans say the president should not seek another term and 51% of democrats nearly half of those saying president biden should not run cite the age at 80 already the oldest president ever to serve. still allies are down playing concerns about the president's age. >> he is an active president meeting the challenges of america every day. >> reporter: not the only one

facing head winds. in 10 americans say former president trump should not run again either but recent indictment in new york and other looming criminal investigations strengthened the position among republicans now 68% say they back him to be the nominee. support for a potential rival florida governor desantis eroded in recent months, not attacking the president directly but just this weekend delivered this veiled spip. >> republicans need to shake the culture of losing that developed in recent years. >> reporter: an issue to impact the race is borges rights. even after the supreme court reserved the right to mifepristone former president trump with a video speech in iowa taking credit for overturning roe v. wade.

>> they delivered a landmark victory for protecting innocent life. >> reporter: and there his former vice president mike pence who supports a national abortion ban. >> i don't agree with the former president saying this is the states only issue. >> reporter: poll found nearly 60% of americans say abortion should be legal nationwide some moderates think it's costing the gop at the ballot box. >> that's peter alexander with that report. >> yes. >> thank you so much rev, i don't know. maybe everybody's overplaying a couple things. the biden's too old. 80 trump is about to turn 77. not exactly spring chicken. >> kind of close in age. >> as my grandma from dalton, georgia, would say

also, we keep hearing about desantis blown it. we are responsible for -- me and mika responsible for 99% of the narratives 46% to 31% this for out you are running against a guy who is -- republican nominee twice. that's not bad for desantis. a lot of people may have to sort of reshape that narrative. finally, you have donald trump who again even in this poll which is supposed to be bad news for joe biden you got donald trump sitting at a 34% approval rating do i think there's a republican out there that can beat joe biden? yes, i do. do i think it's donald trump not on your life

a 34% approval rating. last week had him down 25% rating this guy is very unpopular with the overwhelming majority of americans, donald trump. >> and the fact that he may be facing one or two more indictments before we get to the election is only going to complicate it, particularly with independent voters where we should look at the poll is that we are dealing with conflicting visions of america as i said earlier. i think people understand what biden stands for and where he wants to take the country. trump, he equivocates on abortion one way and another way. we don't know the rational for desantis running the second thing that people are

very concerned about is that are we really going to have a -- we have the first time in history of an indicted former president. are we talking about putting a potentially conflicted person in the white house? i think that might be a place, a bridge too far for even some in the republican party getting down to it you have to beat somebody with somebody even the democrats that say that biden is too old, okay, then who? no one has come with an argument to be an alternative to biden. if not trump then who? desantis who doesn't shake hands with anybody in the room >> yeah. >> you need somebody to -- >> there's that. >> you need somebody to beat somebody. >> a surprising story about ron desantis came out last week for a republican that endorsed former president trump and he volunteered and then said i

think in an email next to ron desantis for two years and never spoke to him once. on committees you have so much down time. getting to know everybody. >> you have to like people. >> you have to like interacting with people. >> a couple of things here jonathan lemire. i want to continue this conversation talking about the candidates for quite sometime. donald trump, 34% approval rating this is a guy that keeps, keeps getting more and more radical. keeps grinding down his base smaller and smaller base it is losing the suburbs and across america that's why he is a nonstarter for republicans who actually want to win. second thing is, what have we learned about joe biden?

underestimated too old before he ran in 2020. mocked and ridiculed after iowa and out of touch, making a fool of himself after he lost new hampshire and then won south carolina then he won the democratic nomination too old to be president. then elected president then he was too old to get b bipa bipartisan legislation then made more bipartisan deals. it is unbelievable leading up to the 2020 midterm too old. all the polls showed, these polls. i say this for a reason. not because -- i've said i don't believe polls for sometime i said it before the 2020 election they were exaggerating biden's

lead over trump. polls don't measure biden accurately remember the red wave? and biden was out of touch then biden made history. only guy in the white house in his first midterm election to hold all the governorships nationwide since fdr in 1934 too old two weeks after that then delivered the state of the union address. then too old this keeps going on and on biden is always underestimated like reagan, like ike. annuity gingrich said this republicans made a fool of themselves by underestimating joe biden. i think it is happening again. >> this is how the white house sees the state of the race to that paint, they feel confident in the president who

has been underestimated over and over and think if there's a lack of enthusiasm behind the president there's no shortage to vote against donald trump. they feel like the dynamic from 2020 will repeat itself and can point to biden's record. i'd also add the leadership with the war in ukraine has been something that they are proud of and feel like he can stand on. there are concerns about the age and as would any incumbent president with an economic slow down they feel good about where they are. we'll hear a re-election bid as soon as tomorrow there's debate when to do this some voices, loud ones, say let's wait give republicans the stage we have international travel coming on. get the debt ceiling done before

we dive in this is going to be an expensive campaign and every day you wait to raise money is a day you lost on the back end in terms of dollars to put away. the campaign won't ramp up for a while but they feel like they need to raise in money. >> let ice bring in at the director of polling at harvard university john della volpe, the author of "fight." it is out now in paperback you have some new polling on younger americans overall. they tend to differ from what we talk about in terms of primary voters and their support your take? >> this is this is the 45th edition of the harvard youth poll

millennial generation to gen-z we went ten feet deep into the generation and found that a generation under attack. they feel besieged what that means is that we see trust in institutions, specifically the supreme court, take a nosedive. we see that fear, specifically of mass shootings and being a victim of gun violence, nearly 50% are under a constant fear. going to the mall, class being out in public. specifically among young women i think the generation is going to be voting their values. it is not about individuals. it is about issues that's what i think the reverend was saying earlier.

>> this is fascinating because we are seeing young people show up at polls for races that perhaps in the past they wouldn't have known were going on and i want to drill down on some of those results that you got. look at this concerned about being a victim in the near future of gun violence 36%. of a mass shooting, 35%. robbery or theft 35% sexual assault 28% hate crime 23% police brutality 17% then the opinions about gun laws in the u.s more strict? 63%. less strict 13%. 22% kept the same. >> by the way, these numbers were collected before the events of nashville okay these are probably more

conservative than we might expect yeah this speaks to like i said a generation who's carrying the fears every day. the students conducted a focus group with young republicans across college campuses and beyond this year and their idea of creating psychological background checks to anyone who could have a permit for a gun. 4 out of 5 of young americans supported that idea. they are clear in terms of value. the idea of being safe in public places this is something that i don't think a lot of elected officials in washington had to deal with at this generation's age and we need to listen to these voices. >> biden's viewpoints line up. why is he at 36%

>> you know, that's a -- i think, joe, there is deep concern about the direction the country is on. when 75% question the american dream, 78% of young people in the survey indicated that unlike their parent's generation with a couple bad breaks someone could be homeless one day. anxiety around housing, crime, the economy. those things don't spell well for elected officials but this approval rating for the president a couple points better in novembers when democrats outperformed most expectations democrats won well under 40 vote and made the difference. it is not the correlation of the

past with election results same thing was the case a few weeks ago in wisconsin. >> so this -- i want to point to another poll result that you have that i really think is an entire conversation but we will point to it. felt at least several days in the last two weeks nervous, anxious or on edge 55% down, depressed or hopeless 47%. little pleasure in doing things 46%. afraid 41% thoughts of self harm 24%. >> thank you we have been having this conversation sadly for years i would say. this conversation we started well before covid to -- let me wrap humanity behind the numbers. there's 55 million americans between 18 and 29.

so we talk about half a generation being depressed, a quarter of this generation having thoughts of self harm millions of young people whichever college campus you are on today and high school there are young people thinking about self harm every single day of that week. a lot of people thought that would ease after covid lockdowns. perhaps. maybe 2 or 3-point shift not enough to end this conversation. we need to continue to focus on this, specifically young women >> let me raise this to you. is part of this where we see the low poll numbers in this generation where they -- with the president and the other across the board low poll

numbers in terms of the american dream, is part that in their generation they have not seen the progress and the victory that the generation ahead of them like we never dreamed we would see a black president. they can't see victory to gun violence and the things that have confronted their generation do you think that's part of what tempers the view >> i think you are right as difficult and chaotic as the '60s and 70s and '80s the baby boomers, even millennials saw america can come together. after the stress of vietnam. this generation, gen-z i think is defined by not seeing america united or come together. they don't have a memory of 9/11

which also means that they don't remember september 12th and 13th where america was united they haven't seen that progress in police brutality. >> january 6. >> it doesn't seem to stop. >> hmm director of polling at the institute of politics at harvard university, john della volpe, thank you. revealing and more to talk about. tonight in raleigh, north carolina, demonstrators are set to gather to celebrate the 10th anniversary of moral monday rallies launched in 2013 when 17 citizens protested budget cuts they said targeted the poor and working class in the state today's event honors the work in the decade following and

recommit to future campaigns joining us is co-chair of the poor people's campaign and the president of repairers of the breach reverend william barber. >> thank you so much >> thank you. >> there are many things to look at over the past decade and 15 years where there's been progress reverend al was talking about how unemployment among black americans at 5%, all-time low. unemployment is lower with black men than white men right now and yet income disparity it seems continues to grow. and the answer for one party is cut, cut, cut. when it comes to helping the poorest among us talk about the first moral -- the 10th anniversary of moral monday and what you have been

able to accomplish over this decade. >> thank you good morning you know, when we look at moral monday that happened ten years ago in north carolina we had a super majority because of redistricting that was not stopped by the justice department and they decided that they would block health care expansion, attack the lgbtq community, block unemployment increases and then in april they decided to go after health care -- i mean, voting rights. what people decided is every k crucifixion needs a witness. we wept into the general assembly and said, listen. we are here to say that health care and voting rights and living wages are moral issues of that 17 interestingly 7 of them

were young people and arrested us and from there it grew and grew until over 100,000 people in the streets in january of 2014 the largest sustained movement at a state house we won in voter suppression. beat them back through this movement bringing together white people from the west and conservative states and the eastern so-called black belt state. 60% were white that were arrested 16% were republicans we sent an extremist governor home the next year we created the atmosphere so that just a few weeks ago roy cooper signed medicare expansion. when we started medicare down in the poll when they saw doctors and young people willing to go to jail to

challenge the immoral issues the polling changed. moral fusion organizing can work in the south if the people would look at it today we haveterrible numbers. poverty is fourth leading cause of death in south carolina 1 million people are without health care. 2 million people make less than $15 an hour. inside the numbers is where you can organize organizing 4% in florida you can change any at-large election if you mobilize 19% of poor and low wealth voters in north carolina you can change any election 7% in georgia. over and over again we see if we bring people together in a third reconstruction moral movement it can shift. now working in 30-some different states and the study called waking the sleeping giant even

among young people a thing that they say is nobody talks to us nobody pushed the issues together it is not about racism over and poverty. it is interlocking injustices to challenge together as america. same people against voting rights are the same people against health care and those that vote to cut taxes on the wealthy. blocking the criminal justice reform, blocking living wages. if they are cynical enough to be together we must be smart enough to come together and when we do that people get excited and willing to change. we can break through even in the south. >> bishop barber, congratulations on ten years last week national action

network had the convention and dealing with august 26 national march and other issues of voting rights and racism but in your work in the south around in the faith community have you seen any of the white evangelicals, the white church as a conservative church begin to gravitate toward the common moral issues that you raise? because we have seen some evidence of coming together, black church and others, and liberal churches what about those that are blessing the use of guns and blessing the resurgence and racism and other biases that we face >> that's always been around whether the slave religion versus the christianity of

douglass or those that supported franklin roosevelt and those that didn't. we did waking the sleeping giant and said the number one reason people don't vote because nobody talks to them. we have been in eastern kentucky, east tennessee i did palm sunday in the mountains in front of a plant that joe manchin owns up in the mountains. people are coming together last summer in august we put over 150,000 peep in the streets. 3 million folk online. 25 different religious bodies to support that effort and 400 other organizations and there is in moral coming together of people across these lines. we also are finding that most poor people when they vote don't vote against their interest. they don't vote because they

have been so turned off. data is coming out now saying that they voted 13% higher for progressive candidates and finding across the board, we have a group called red letter christians part of the movement. people who used to be with so-called white evangelicals they are with us last weekend in nashville. quick story. went to nashville by invitation. we put black and white and brown and latino and jews and muslims and christians in the state and mothers from the school where the babies were killed wept into the general assembly in tennessee in full vestment and planning to vote to pass guns in

the hands of teachers. when they saw that fusion coalition ready to lay down and submit to arrest they changed the vote they would not vote. we know every time in history when moral fusion movements come together, the 1800s or the second reconstruction of the 1960s or the third reconstruction right now change can happen. >> thank you very much we appreciate very much you coming on this morning thank you. still ahead on "morning joe," the rise and fall for ron desantis have things fallen apart before he declared the 2024 candidacy and bed bath & beyond files for bankruptcy you're watching "morning joe." we'll beig rht back.

new polling shows most republicans still support donald trump's campaign despite his mounting legal troubles. >> can we stop right there can we stop right there? >> there's a lot of reasons for that. >> for a second. they still support him despite the fact this is a guy who said he wanted to terminate the constitution this is a guy who denied the election first president actually since the civil war to not allow a peaceful transfer of power a guy that supported the overthrow of the election results. spurred on an insurrection against the united states of america. all of these riots people in jail because of donald trump. republicans are -- that's fine that's fine. remind me back in the 2016 jon

meacham said that donald trump is like a hijacker on the plane, the republican party in this case, and all the passengers on the plane were cheering for the hijacker they still are despite the fact he took the plane dow in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 we'll show polls that show that, yeah, people aren't excited about joe biden and donald trump. but if you match biden against a generic republican the generic republican wins easily comparing biden to donald trump it is biden. trump's approval ratings lower than biden but they want to lose, the republicans. >> you are right but i think we must remember the rise of donald trump was as a grievance candidate that they are after

us, do not hear us, trying to destroy the families and never really defining who they are because he's closer to established order than the penal he appealed to now he convinced them that they are prosecuting me because i am one of you it is a next step in grievance politics does a desantis or someone have enough of a charisma, appeal or political savvy. they don't have a narrative that the public buy into. they bought into grievance politics with trump. >> mara gay,republicans, these trump republicans love the

they're coming after us. they are they're not the ones making 10-year-old girls raped flee ohio to not have a forced birth in ohio. they're not the ones, democrats, sending little children to school in fear of their life they have to worry about ar-15s and shotguns and being killed. because now -- it is not democrats doing this it is the republican party now they're the ones passing crazy legislation that allows the killings of little children to continue to where now it's the number one cause of death among children guns. >> what you are talking about is what grievance politics that the rev was discussing half wrought.

that is not about delivering anything real to the american people but stoking old hatreds and a sad day because it is a slate of politicians who are in office not as public servants but just to stoke grievances and when ron desantis didn't show up several weeks ago when there was really like horrific weather situation, 101 in politics, but politicians more motivated by public grievance than service. the advantage that donald trump has is that he is not in office. when you are in office you are blamed for everything that goes wrong. despite the fact that he stoked this really sad decline of the

republican party and that has kind of ushered in the politicians passing the draconian laws on women, doing nothing about guns, he is not having to take the blame for it because he is not in office so that is giving him an added bump. coming up, a next guest on the ground in kabul in the chaotic exit from afghanistan nearly two years ago that former state department official joins our conversation straight ahead on "morning joe." hey, dad. i got an a on my book report. -and i scored a goal on ashley. -that's cool. and i went for a walk in the woods and i didn't get a single flea or tick on me. you are just the best. it's probably because of that flea and tick medicine you've been ordering from chewy. we are very proud of you. you never stop surprising us, bailey. right? i'm great. you are great. i wonder if bailey's ever done a book report. be nice to your sister. what flea bit him?

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slightly provocative head lip but the numbers after the midterm the reverse of that in most polls desantis was 10, 20 points ahead of trump and now behind. the reason for that is because he's sort of dipped the toe in the national stage he's actually now in japan by the way. he is heading to israel and the uk so i guess safe allies to demonstrate the foreign policy credentials in some ways but as he steps on to the national stage his lack of sort of human quality and likability and i guess ineptitude -- i was astonished last week i still am by the brutal daylight homicide of churchill's rhetoric. we'll make war on woke in the universities, in the

corporations we will never surrender to woke. he delivers in a wooden way and doesn't come across as remotely relatible as a human being and then the new york indictment of trump where desantis sort of backed trump opportunity to differentiate himself and to condemn lawlessness and promise trump-ism without trump and he didn't if you hesitate before killing the king you're going to lose all kinds of potency i think that's what's happening now. but that headline is not checked by my colleagues at "the financial times" slightly -- i'm not sure it's ready to declare the fall of ron desantis but he is falling. >> headline captures the growing

republican worry of ron desantis who the forces in the gop to stand against trump around desantis and clearly in second place and republican strategists and donors point out that we have the draconian stances six-week abortion ban. the war on disney. taking on a private business like this. as mara said earlier, turning his back on ft. lauderdale gas shortages in florida why are you not helping out here desantis with some challenges with the retail political skills didn't have a connection yet or found the footing during this national tour and now international tour that he is doing. it is early but trump's lead is

growing and despite this also increased legal peril the party is talking to a smaller piece of the electorate and if trump is the guy that's a tough case to make in 2024. steve kornacki is at the big board. >> really upset. the rage throwing things. >> actually never upset. >> chalk against the wall. >> will break down the new polling on the presidential race when "morning joe" comes right back. >> i love him. he is great. he is the best

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we turn now to sudan american personnel have been evacuated from the u.s. embassy in sudan where a civil conflict between military forces enters week two president biden announced on twitter he ordered the evacuations saying the violence in sudan already cost hundreds

of innocent lives and called for a meet cease fire. since the conflict broke out on the 15th the associated press reports more than 400 people died and nearly 4,000 others have been injured. joining us is former croix officer mark polmoropouso and at brookings institution jeffrey feldman, a former u.s. special envoy for the horn of america. i think we'll start there, sir jeffrey feldman, about what exactly is happening in sudan. can you explain what the fighting is about? >> the fighting is really about a lust happening in sudan can you explain what the fighting is about? >> the fighting is really about a lust for power between two generals and two security military institutions. the two generals were partners,

uneasy partners in trying to direct the transition that took place after omar beshear was overthrown from power four years ago by these sort of heroic public protests. these two generals had institutional rivalries, jealousies, et cetera, but they were united in wanting to make sure they never had to report to civilian authorities so they were working together in order to try to thwart the civilian ambitions for democracy, for democratic rule but then the unanswered question in this sort of marriage of convenience between the two of them was, who would ultimately prevail. now you're seeing the fight on the ground, basically a fratri fratricide it's basically a clash for power

inwhich the civilians of sudan are the collateral damage. >> we know the u.s. embassy evacuated personnel over the weekend, but there are thousands of americans still there what is your concern level for them but also the security implications going forward for the region as this violence continues? >> well, first and foremost, really well done to my former colleagues in the u.s. government, who often don't get a lot of public recognition. these are members of the intelligence community, the diplomatic security service and the regular embassy personnel and army special forces as well, so really a ballet of capabilities allowed this to happen there are 70 plus families and diplomats who are now safe there's a lot of planning that goes into this now, there are still remaining american citizens in sudan

we never have an actual accurate count. if an american citizen doesn't register at the embassy, we don't know if they're there. so there will be efforts made. we certainly have seen reports on perhaps getting information to u.s. citizens on the ground for land evacuation routes perhaps to port sudan. we're not going to leave everybody high and dry this is the first step in a long process in trying to get americans out. this is what happens in the third world, in the middle east and africa where i served. a lot of planning goes into this we have to get our people and americans out as well. >> can i ask, in horrific humanitarian situations like this, there's also opportunities for bad actors to exploit the situation. the russian wagner group, evgeny

prigozhin's group, they are stepping up activities they're involved on the p paramilitary fight between the generals russia itself has aspirations for a naval base there at port su sudan. do you have intelligence on the degree to which the wagner group, in particular, the mercenary russian group are fomenting the situation there on the ground >> without a doubt evgeny prigozhin has had assets on the ground. he's worked with he metty on gold smuggling out of sudan via the middle east. there's no doubt that prigozhin, who heads wagner, has been

involved with he metty for some time he metty was present in moscow on the day the russians invaded ukraine. on the other hand, i think the real risk here is that all of the neighbors, many powers will start to choose sides. right now, at the beginning of this, nobody wanted to see civil war or clashing between the military and sudan whatever side people may have been on in terms of what the transition should look like, countries, leaders wanted to see sudan stable this is the third largest country in africa. it has over 46 million people. 10% of the trade goes along its shores and the red sea it's a strategic country with a large population the longer this fight goes on, it will become almost irresistible for some countries to say, well, if these two generals are going to fight, i guess we better try to put our fingers on the scales one way or

the other to try to make sure one prevails depending on which one they favor i'm worried the longer this goes on, not only will you have a higher cost in terms of civilians being killed, injured, unable to access food or water, but you're also going to have a higher likelihood that not only russia but other countries, other forces are going to start to try to intervene on behalf of one general or the other. coming up, andrew ross sorkin

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it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. welcome back to the fourth hour of "morning joe. president joe biden expected to officially announce his reelection campaign, possibly tomorrow steve kornacki is standing by at the big board to break down the latest polling for his chances in 2024. also ahead, we're looking at ron desantis's likability problem as the florida governor's war on cultural issues seems to be hurting his presidential aspirations plus, it's the end of the line for bed bath and beyond. >> you saw that coming. >> the struggling retailer files for bankruptcy we'll look at what went wrong there. and we'll explain the upgrade mcdonald's says it's making to its most iconic burger it comes as dog menus are getting a big brand up from

donny deutsch. he joins us later this hour with more on that let's get right to the 2024 race for the white house new polling showing most republicans still support donald trump's campaign despite his mounting legal trouble and on the democratic side, president joe biden is expected to launch his reelection campaign as early as tomorrow. let's bring in steve kornacki at the big board. steve, what do those poll numbers tell us? >> a rematch based on the facts on the ground and some of these numbers, it's very possible a rematch would be very unpopular with voters. joe biden's approval rating is at 41% approval in our poll, 54% disapproval.

compare that to just a couple months ago, this is a tick below where he started the year. he was 45/50 at the start of the year now 41/54. one thing driving this is you ask about approve/disapprove on the economy. biden continues to have a 38% job approval on the question we did the take the temperature of the republicans nationally. you see trump leading here you see desantis, the only one of the over at this moment potential of announced opponents of trump getting any traction here, desantis running 15 points behind trump everybody else, including mike pence, running back in single digits i think one notable thing we found in this poll is we asked republican leaning ing voters

specifically about these legal issues of trump and their attitude towards them. should in light of these legal issues should you look for somebody to run in 2024 who's not distracted, somebody different, somebody new? or do you see these legal issues as a partisan motivated attack on donald trump and, therefore, it's time for republicans to stand behind him and defeat his opponents. 26% said let's go for someone out any distractions 68% said let's rally behind trump. i think that's a number worth keeping in mind. these legal issues are going to keep percolating in the headlines throughout the year. notably here, if you look when i say the country wouldn't be too enthusiastic about a rematch, we asked all americans here, should joe biden run for reelection 26% say yes, 70% say no.

donald trump, 35% say yes, 60% say no big majorities say they don't want either one of them running. the most likely scenario here might be a rematch between them. we said would you vote for joe biden in 2024 or the republican? when you put it that way, biden loses by six points. when you start putting some names here, it starts to look different. this is the positive/negative score. joe biden not very popular, 38% positive, 48% negative score look at donald trump much less popular. 34% positive, 53% negative just in terms of broad impressions of joe biden and donald trump among voters, biden's underwater by ten, trump's underwater by almost twice as much. for democrats in 2022, that

helps explain why they were able to have a pretty decent midterm in the face of some pretty poor poll numbers for joe biden it was the unpopularity of the republican party and particularly donald trump and his reaction on willingness to concede the 2020 election, january 6th helped democrats in 2022 if it is going to be biden running for reelection, democrats are hoping certainly this would be their saving grace again in 2024. >> steve kornacki, thank you very much. >> i'm just curious. what's your bottom line here, steve, of all of these numbers >> i think the most interesting one, we go back to the republican kind of horse race here nationally. we've seen numbers kind of all over the place in different polls on this question of how close is desantis, how big is trump's lead

we have it at 15 there have been other polls that have had it higher there have been some that have it a little bit closer the two things i key in on are, number one, every time one of these legal issues, like the manhattan d.a. issue, one of these legal issues comes up involving trump, it seems there's a reflexive reaction among republican voters to rally around donald trump. that answer there where 68% said they view these legal issues as primarily partisan motivated attacks on donald trump, attempts to keep him from taking back the white house therefore, in response, they say, we republicans should rally around trump that's worth keeping in mind again, these legal issues are going to keep popping up throughout 2023 and maybe into 2024 the second is on the republican side, we see it in our poll,

talking about that college/non-college divide donald trump does so much better than desantis particularly among white voters without college degrees. in republican primary politics over the last generation but particularly since donald trump emerged in 2016, that group just demographically has been ascendant in the republican party. if you can monopolize that group, that's the biggest single group you can have on the republican side. that's where trump has his biggest advantage over desantis. that's where desantis or anybody is going to have to make inroads to have a chance of knocking off trump. >> what is your take on joe biden constantly underperforming? we can look back to the 2022 midterms it was supposed to be a red wave joe biden pulls out something that no president has in their first off year election since fdr in 1934. we saw him just discounted and left for dead politically after

iowa, after new hampshire. he's been underestimated his entire life. those numbers with joe biden, they mean nothing, it seems, because we've underestimated one time after another as even newt gingrich said, republicans are doing the same thing to joe biden that democrats did to ronald reagan and eisenhower they underestimated both of nose guys at their own risk it seems the same with biden here why do his numbers on issues seem so aligned with voters on issues and yet it just never translated in poll numbers until election day >> yeah. i mean, i think all of the numbers out there about biden that we saw in 2022, as i'm showing you here, we're still seeing in 2023 for biden, i still think those

are flashing warning signs heading into a reelection year what we learned in 2022, however, these numbers were a lot more significant in the midterm election that we were accustomed to seeing what i'm talking about here is the opposition party and the former president there was a dynamic in the 2022 midterms that, frankly, we hadn't seen in modern times. think back to, south barack obat elected in 2008 and democrats suffered a brutal midterm in 2010 2009 and 2010 george w. bush disappeared from the public spotlight and didn't utter a word that's what we're used to seeing we're used to seeing former presidents recede into the shadows.

we're used to see the midterm become a referendum on the president and the governing party. in my whole lifetime, every president comes in, goes into a midterm election, you hear them all say, we're going to make this a choice and not a referendum they always say it and they always fail. well, in 2022 democrats succeeded. i think that's because of the unusual prominence of donald trump, the aftermath of january 6th, the fact that last summer, months before the midterm election, you have prime time january 6th hearings that brought the thing back vividly for americans to relive. you had the raid on mar-a-lago you had trump aligned candidates winning primaries, echoing his rhetoric about the 2020 elections. so this became a factor. the fact that donald trump was significantly less popular than joe biden, the fact that the republican party was less popular than the democratic party, these things became factors in the 2022 midterms you see joe biden lining up to

run here i think that's the bet they're making, that republicans will nominate trump again and just as in 2022 there were those swing voters who ultimately were not wild about biden and the democrats but could not bring themselves to vote for trump and the republicans. they'll have the same reaction in 2024. >> steve kornacki, thank you so much one thing sometimes we overlook, nancy pelosi's husband paul being brutally, savagely attacked at his home brought home the dangers of political violence coming from republicans and republican conspiracy theorists. some of the wealthiest people in the world lying about paul pelosi, mocking paul pelosi, creating these conspiracy theories that's something that certainly

connected violence on january 6th to the violence and the threat of violence that still lurks because of some people on the right who have fascist tendencies i'm being really polite when i say tendencies that word tendencies next to fascists is doing a lot. >> you talk to some of them, you really do realize it's more than tendencies it's a complete mindset. they truly will not bend from election denial. they will not bend from trump. they will not bend from the conspiracy theories about paul pelosi i don't know if deep inside they believe they are lying, but it's either the cult effect of trump or true fascism. >> the fascism comes from the use of violence, the threat of violence, the use of violent rhetoric we've seen an upswing in

we saw january 6th we saw the attack on paul pelosi we saw the pipe bombs being made we saw one act of violence after another against political figures, the threat of violence against political figures. again, that was all connected with that paul pelosi attack drawing a straight line through january 6th. that's a great way to lose elections, the threat of violence, having that hovering over, telling the proud boys to stand back and stand by, talking about january 6th. it all adds up. >> jonathan lemire, given that you were the author of "the big lie," obviously joe is talking about violence i kind of brought in the concept of misinformation. actually, they are hand in hand in terms of being destructive to our country. >> to american democracy, yeah. >> the misinformation, the disinformation, the outright lies fuel the violence we saw that on january 6th and

with the case of paul pelosi there are, unfortunately, lots of examples of this. that is something that has turned off a lot of the american people about the extreme positions republicans have taken on things like guns or abortions. this violent incendiary rhett t rhetoric is not going to draw swing voters we may get word as soon as tomorrow that he is officially in for his reelection bid. he has said since taking office that his intention all along was to run again, but he was leaving the door open. he wanted to talk to his family. he wanted to see where things went of course, things have broken for him, certainly with the democrats' strong showing in this last year's midterms. there's been a pretty spirited debate in the biden world as to when he should announce. some think he should wait.

the republican field is a mess let them tear each other up. let the headlines be dominated by the latest trump indictment or legal problem others appear to have won out by saying, look, we need to start raising money. this campaign is going to be slow to get going. they need the money for what will be a very expensive campaign ahead now, bed bath and beyond has filed for bankruptcy the retail chain made the announcement over the weekend, saying it will keep its 300 stores and 100 baby locations open while it liquidates assets. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin what does this mean for other big box retailers? >> this is one of those sad sign of the times stories this is a company that's been

troubled for quite some time you could argue that the pandemic in some cases made it look better than it really was and masked some of the problems with that company given the stimulus checks that went out and the push by so many americans to redo their homes and the like but this is a story that's not just a story about bed bath and beyond but so many big box stores which have been impacted by online sales and e-commerce and shifting trends in terms of how we buy things, but also debt this company put an enormous amount of debt on its books. here it is not being able to service this debt. the real question for this brand that so many americans know and some love is whether these stores remain and how many of them remain long-term. of course, in the meantime they've raised a little bit of money to keep some of these stores open. they're going to be liquidating

assets part of this is a management issue, which is what kind of products to people even want these days it's a sad story for american retailers this morning. >> so, andrew, a lot of americans aren't really focused on the debt ceiling fight right now. if we don't figure this thing out, it could cause an economic global meltdown. >> totally. >> it could trash the american dollar, could cost americans so much in their retirement, could make their lives so much harder economically yet, we're moving towards the deadline and right now nobody's diffusing that debt ceiling time bomb. >> the big question from all my reporting is, do we believe that kevin mccarthy can corral enough republicans to actually get

across the finish line and whether you think some of the 20 folks early on trying to block his own positioning in the house are going to be going along with this i think that is ultimately the big question as to whether there are enough republicans to do this and how many of them are going to try to block this having said that, we have seen this movie before. i don't know if it's a boy who cried wolf situation, but we've reported breathlessly in previous years when these things have happened that they were almost on the cusp invariably we get to 11:59 and three seconds to go and they vote to do it. is the same ending going to happen this time i don't know i think it's possible this time is different. >> andrew, let's talk about first republic bank earnings report today warren buffett said he was dumping all of his bank stocks

other than bank of america got a lot of americans rightly a bit skittish about having their money in regional banks. what are we expecting today from the earnings report? >> we're hoping to see how much deposit flight there really has been that is the big question unfortunately, this terrible, terrible game of chicken is going on between some of the big banks who would actually like to own something like first republic, but still think it's a falling knife and say, hey, let the knife keep falling, i don't want to catch this knife while it's falling folks at first republic who, on the other hand, think to themselves we are in such a mess, our stock used to be $150, now we're literally 10,12, $15 a share. from a risk perspective, we should try to get the stock up before we sell it. there's a mismatch in terms of what happens next. it's something like a $25

billion hole we're going to learn a lot more about the state of this bank and hope the deposit flight is not so great that there is more time for this bank. all eyes will be on its numbers today. if they're not good, it will impact other regional banks. if they're good, it might give us a sense that if the crisis is not over, at least temporarily averted. pennsylvania senator john fetterman is back on capitol hill the freshman democrat returned to d.c. last week after spending 44 days at the hospital for clinical depression. now his aides say his aggression is in remission and he's ready to work. one of the biggest decisions he had to make was whether to wear a suit or a hoodie he could wear his usual hoodie and shorts combo as long as he

remains off the senate floor, where a tie is required. he says, quote, depression has become kind of like a policy priority if even one person can get help as a result, then that's what i want to do. >> the timing, my god, we're thinking about not only senator fetterman and praying for him, but for all of those out there that are suffering mika, we said this before the pandemic, that depression, anxiety, mental health challenges was an epidemic moving toward being a pandemic the fact that we have a man who was brave enough to talk about this, to seek treatment at a time i guarantee you when so many people say, oh, he can't do

this, the message that this sends not only to democrats, not only to progressives, to liberals, but to conservatives, to republicans, to people all across the idealogical spectrum who are suffering from mental health challenges, this sends a great message. i hate to use the word, i hope it's a learning experience it sounds trite, but it should be a learning experience for us and should send a message out to americans, it's okay to get out there and tell people you're struggling it's okay. >> even more so, i want to go further with that. a lot of people go, oh, he had to check in. god forbid he had to check in somewhere and he was gone for 44 days that's exactly how you treat mental health, especially clinical depression, especially

if it's grave and at very high levels here's what happens. i'm not saying this is what happened in the senator's case, because i don't know but often you go in and you get therapy and you work with therapists, but you're also trying out medications that can help address the depression. there are medications that can exactly match up with you. and you can, as john fetterman found, as it takes a month or two to see if the medication is working, you can really live a normal life. sometimes it takes a while to find the right one that's the reality of it going in to get treated in a hospital for mental health is not the stigma that it used to be it's because you're trying out medications and working with the proper doctors to get back in line >> they can observe you instead of you getting help for depression, continuing to struggle with it, going and

seeing a psychiatrist, having some pills thrown at you, seeing if it works. here, he went in, he got supervised i will say for people like myself, i've never really suffered from depression, the kind that is deep and internal it's clinical, not impacted by outside circumstances. but over the past 20 or 30 years, i walked through it with friends, with loved ones who do struggle with depression it is a daily battle it is a daily battle that all of us need to be sensitive to i'll tell you, some people i've talked to say it's a battle to get into the shower in the morning, to get out of the shower, to put one foot in front of the other i go away from people who

struggle with clinical depression and who walk through it every day, and i actually think these people are heros fo what they battle every day and contribute to this country i'm grateful that we have somebody who's at a very high level in american politics that's gone in for treatment, hasn't been worried about what people might say about it. he's been worrying about himself. i know sometimes you get shy, jonathan lemire, and you don't want to talk about it. that's why we're here. face up to it, jonathan lemire, you got to talk about it >> there we go >> joe, you make an important point. my family has a history of mental health and depression

i have seen firsthand what a challenge it is for people it is. the senator deserves so much credit to go seek treatment so early. he had just been elected there were people saying, you can't do this now, this is a bad idea, this will finish your term before you even start. the senator and his family and his close staff all said, no, what's more important is that he gets the help he needs and, secondly, that he can then be an example to show people this is something we are talking about it is really refreshing in the last couple years in particular and especially in recent months how mental health has become part of the national political discourse. it's an issue that washington shied away from for a long time. that's no longer the case. kudos to the senator for the role he's played in that >> i hope more americans have access to the kind of care he had, because it's badly needed, especially for young people. >> that's a message, again, not just to democrats or progressives that's a message to republicans, to conservatives

it is critical that we fund mental health in a dramatic way, in a way that we've not done yet, but in a way that we need to depression doesn't care about your ideology. mental health doesn't care about who you voted for in elections two years ago. it impacts everybody we really need congress, we need the president, we need everybody stepping forward and helping americans out, especially in rural america, where there's not as many treatment options for mental health. >> none, yeah. coming up, donny deutsch will be here with his latest installment of brand up/brand down. plus, there is new concern this morning that afghanistan is once again becoming a terrorist safe haven we'll be joined by a former state department official who was on the ground in kabul during the chaotic u.s. pullout.

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president biden inherited a force presence in afghanistan of some 2500 troops, the lowest since 2001 he inherited a special immigrant visa program that had been starved of resources and he inherited a deal struck between a previous administration and the taliban that called for a complete removal of all u.s. troops while it was always the president's intent to end that war, it is also undeniable that decisions made and the lack of planning done by the previous administration significantly limited options available to him. >> national security council coordinator for strategic communications at the white house john kirby speaking earlier this month about a biden administration report that largely blames the trump white house for the united states' chaotic withdrawal from afghanistan in august of 2021. a year and a half later, finger

pointing about that operation continues across both sides of the aisle. but now, for the first time ever, a u.s. diplomat who was on the ground in kabul is providing his detailed account of what happened during those treacherous days joining us now, investigative journalist and "new york times" best selling author mitchell zukoff also here is one of the subjects of the book, former state department political officer sam aaronson, who risked his life to evacuate at-risk families from kabul. >> mitchell, this happened with lightning speed, the whole thing happened with lightning speed leading up to the frenzied withdrawal and then the chaos that enveloped the entire

country in the days that followed talk about how you capture that in this remarkable book. >> thank you, joe. as you say, it was total chaos you remember the scenes of men falling off the wings of airplanes, women handing babies through barbed wire. you had tens of thousands of men, women and children, crushing against the walls of the kabul airport, all of them desperate to get out because they knew what was coming the sudden rearrival of the taliban meant all the of the freedoms they enjoyed for the past 20 years during american involvement were about to end. women were going to be kept from the streets, girls were going to be kept from schools the people that cooperated all those years were at risk of death. everyone felt, we've got to get out. tens of thousands of people

showed up at the gates to the airport. >> add to that the chaos of isis seeing this as an opportunity. even when we had the taliban at times working with us to get us out of the country, it was isis, of course, who started detonating bombs outside the gate, creating those frenzied scenes we saw that led to the united states fleeing much more quickly and chaotically that anyone would have liked. >> into the evacuate flowed danger that came in the form of an isis bomber at abbey gate we had the tragic loss of 13 american servicemen and women and 170 afghan, men, women and children. >> you were stationed over there and right in the middle of that chaos. tell us what you saw. >> i came over right around the

time the evacuation started. it was complete chaos on arrival. the day priorrarriving, the hardest thing i had to do was find a pet sitter for my dog then arriving in kabul, i was taught to hot wire buses to get people to safety and keeping flash bangs in my pocket in case we had to fight for our lives. >> you rescued more than 50 people in a single day how did you get them to safety what were those moments like for those who got out and those left behind >> the rules on the ground didn't necessarily match the reality we were seeing along with colleagues from the state department, from the cia, from the military, we had to make the rules fit to situation. we became aware of this secretive gate on the outskirts

of the airport that was outside of the airport beyond a no man's land zone onto a major thoroughfare where there were commerce stalls and a gas station. we started using that gate to bring people back into safety. >> let me ask you, mitchell, a question that has hung over this just absolute disaster for quite some time. it was how we got it so wrong. intel agencies, which by the way got just about everything right in the ukrainian war, but regarding afghanistan they had no clue on how quickly the taliban would seize complete control of the country how did they get that so wrong >> that's a great question we're still getting answers to it one thing we know is that the

expectations for the afghan army, 300,000 men strong equipped and armed by the united states and they dissolved on contact. they didn't have the will to fight to defendtheir country everyone got it wrong. it wasn't just the united states you don't have president beghan getting on an aircraft because he realized the taliban was about to be at his door. i think it's because we didn't really understand just how in the countryside how the taliban was being viewed and the amount of momentum they had moving so quickly toward taking kabul. >> sam, you, of course, are a hero in this book. talk about some of the heros that you met and get to safety. >> i worked with a young man named assad. he was a 21-year-old interpreter for special forces

i met him in the passenger terminal at the airport. he had been manifested for a flight i asked him what he was still doing there. he said he wasn't leaving until he was able to get the rest of his family inside. when a brief window of opportunity presented itself a few days later, i sent him a message on whatsapp and said, hey, are you still available to do some interpretation little did he know i'd be asking him to risk his life and leave the airport, go across the street to a gas station, rescue families one by one, bring them to me where i could process them, bring them to safety and cross that name off my arm where i was keeping track of everything and move onto the next family and get as many as we could. >> wow i have chills. the new book is entitled "the secret gate," a true story of courage during the collapse of afghanistan. it's available tomorrow.

thank you sam aronson. thank you both. we've got some news this morning from the white house susan rice, president biden's domestic policy advisor is stepping down from her post next month. she oversaw the president's domestic agenda. president biden thanked rice for her contributions to u.s. foreign policy, noting her time as national security advisor and u.n. ambassador. rice's last day in the white house will be may 26th, according to a senior administration official. coming up, we'll have an update on the health scare for actor jamie foxx plus senator dick durbin calls out supreme court justice clarence thomas for not following the code of conduct that applies to other federal judges and i'm a hospital administrator. when i talk to patients you can just see from here up when you're wearing a mask. and i have noticed those lines

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francisco. oscar winning actor jamie foxx is in the hospital recovering what he experienced what his daughter describes as a medical complication nbc news correspondent blayne alexander has the latest. >> reporter: he's one of hollywood's brightest stars for decades. now, an encouraging update on academy award winning actor jamie foxx, who has spent nearly two weeks in an atlanta hospital the star's condition is steadily improving. fox was suddenly rushed to the hospital april 11th while in atlanta shooting an upcoming movie. in a statement the next day, his daughter indicated he suffered a medical complication but did not elaborate, writing on instagram, due to quick action and great care he is already on his way to recovery the 55-year-old actor was filming for his upcoming netflix movie "back in action" alongside cameron diaz fox has been widely credited

with convincing her to come out of retirement to do the movie. fox even tweeted this light hearted phone call last year this photof from the set taken last week shows an apparent body double standi ing in for fox ♪ >> reporter: reaching the height of hollywood success in 2005 with his portrayal of ray charles winning him the academy award for best actor he's perhaps just as famous for his stellar singing voice. ♪ >> reporter: now, his fellow stars are flooding social media with support, coming together to wish foxx well. >> he's going to be stronger and better than ever the chairman of the senate

judiciary committee says it is clear that supreme court justice clarence thomas had conflicts of interest following reports from pro publy ka that thomas did not disclose gifts and travel he received from billionaire harlan crow another report finds in 2014 crow's companies bought properties belonging to thomas's mother and the family of his late brother, which also were not disclosed by the justice here's what senator dick durbin had to say about it on "meet the press". >> point is, if there were a judge thomas, this is perhaps a crime. now, it is not clear this would apply to justice thomas. is that your understanding >> that's exactly the point, chuck. if this were another judge, if this were a member of congress and it happened that some texas billionaire came in and said, i'm going to buy your mom's house and own this so she

doesn't have to pay rent or a mortgage payment, you'd say to yourself that's obviously the sort of thing that needs to be disclosed. there's no question in my mind that the supreme court has exempted itself from standards that apply to the executive and legislative branch and even to other judges. >> last week senator durbin asked chief justice john roberts to testify before congress next month about ethics rules for supreme court justices but durbin says he has not received an official response from roberts as for justice thomas, he has acknowledged his failure to disclose trips paid for by crow. in a statement, he wrote, quote, early in my tenure at the court i sought guidance from my colleagues and was advised this sort of personal hospitality from close personal friends who did not have business before the

court was not reportable. coming up, what do fast food, colleges in red states and the ceo of google have in common they're all part of brand up/brand down. donny deutsch joins us next right here on "morning joe."

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i'm just visiting. u.s. bank. ranked #1 in customer satisfaction with retail banking in california by j.d. power. that's good. i like my pizza, except i wanted to eat more of it, like the whole pizza, and then you took some what am i supposed to do

mcdonald's, by the way, is pledging to up their game by making, quote, tasty improvements to some of their iconic burgers according to the company, the big mac, mcdouble cheeseburger and hamburger will all be undergoing changes among them, a better sear on each burger patty and softer more pillowy bun that actually sounds good. >> some things you can't improve on, like our next guest donny deutsch, "brand up brand down. it begins with mcdonald's biggest competitor burger king done any -- first of all, let me just say, mcdonald's, you don't improve on perfection. i don't know what they're doing here this is what coke tried to do in the 1980s. it didn't end up well. >> that's a perfect lead burger king is actually staying

true to who they are they're having kind of a whopper resurgence, sales up 5%. very successful campaign of "have it your way. the jingle reclaim the flame when the army went back to "be all you can be," sometimes you have it right in the first place. going back to authenticity. >> hold the pickles, hold the lettuce, special orders don't upset us red state colleges >> we've talked so much about the effect of the overturn of roe on politics, obviously women's health it's having a tremendous effect not only in business, but in colleges they're showing a survey of people applying to college, that 60% are saying they're really considering the women's reproductive laws in the state before they choose a college over 70% who are already in colleges are rethinking based on

the reproductive law in various states tremendous, tremendous implications for the overturn of roe, seeing it even in studying. >> done any, gen z, entire generation, brand up or brand down >> this generation gets whacked on this segment a lot. here is what it is when you go for a job, and this is coming from lafayette -- la salle recruiting services, that gen zers expect to get a promotion within the first year on the job this is the entitled generation. i sound like a crusty old person, i'm just reporting the facts. >> brand down, retirement. tell us why. >> really what happened last year, most people's 401(k)s went down by 20%. 52% of americans now are not prepared for retirement. 35% of americans between 18-35

have completely put off any saving, any retirement we are not set up for retiring most of this country is not ready at this point. >> let's talk about woke ideology i think again talking about crusty old men this is not a surprise you say brand down why? >> if you're silly republicans, brand up this is amazing. a strong majority of republicans think that woke -- fighting woke ideology in businesses and in sports is more important than fighting cuts in entitlements, fighting cuts in medicare and social security. i'll say it again. more important to them, fighting trans athletes than protect thing social security. this is why we see every republican candidate running to it it's not going to work in the general election but in the echo chamber of politics, this is what matters most frigh frightening. >> while we're at it, bud light,

brand up or brand down >> so much talk about bud light and their social media post with a transgender influencer i want to do a little math for you. people identify themselves as trans in this country, 1.5 million, about .5% of the country. if you think about the fact that budweiser spends $1.5 million in advertising, they're targeting -- the course of a media post, .0000001% of their media budget at this and still taking bump for it it's called target marketing they're allowed to target a specific sliver of the audience. they're actually undelivering. the super bowl ad, a targeted, minuscule thing. they're allowed to do that i t >> done any, the oakland a's owner who frankly doesn't spend

on his team, is moving, they want to move to las vegas. this continues the trend. >> they lost the raiders, now they're losing the a's they lost the warriors, although they didn't leave completely, went to san francisco. the team is 3-16, average 11,000 in attendance. a very empathetic brand down for oakland. >> sad news. i loved the a's and the raiders. >> got to go quick brand up, dog restaurants. >> this is for you, mika you've got restaurants popping up all over the country, one called dogue, rhymes with vogue. you go in, get a cake for your dog. a lot of restaurants have kids menus, they have doggy menus, special rice, special steak. the world has spun off its axis, joe. >> i love it donny deutsch, thank you so much

it doesn't end for us right here joe, you'll be live primetime tonight, is that 8:00 p.m. joe scarborough presents you a number of interviews. >> we'll be talking to president biden, bill clinton, hillary clinton, jerry adams >> tony blair. >> former prime minister tony blair, about the 25th anniversary of the good friday agreements, brings peace to ireland against all odds also will be talking about how the republicans continue their war on democracy. >> you and john heilemann will break down the politics of the day. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now ♪ ♪ hello on this monday hope you had a wonderful weekend. it is 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york the 2024 race coming into sharper focus this morning, maybe with a lit