president biden to declare a public health emergency on gun violence because of how often we're seeing these mass shootings happen across the country. of course, that's a big ask of president biden who himself has called for gun reform for years now but, of course, the gut check here, katie, is with this divided congress for the next two years of the president's first term it is going to be very difficult, if possible at all to get that gun reform across the finish line. >> they got some gun reform legislation across last year some people thought it was a little bit of a door opening and something could come after that, so far nothing even though we have seen a number of mass shootings in the past few weeks including ones where children have died. allie rafa allie, thank you very much for joining us today we appreciate it that is going to do it for me today on this monday. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪ ♪

hello there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york when you pull back delayers and really try to understand how any one of the most damaging conspiracy theories that have over the last few years now seeped into the mainstream political conversation and corroded the body politic, from election denialism to its violent manifestation in the january 6th insurrection to putin's war in ukraine, to conspiracies about covid-19 and the vaccine and mask wearing, to the discuss around replacement theory, which has actually been cited in the manifestos of mass shooters it is fair to say it is not hyperbolic to argue that tucker carlson is the through line through all of them. he is the champion of conspiracy

theories and until today he had one of the largest audiences in cable news for diss sem natting them not anymore. news broke today tucker carlson is out at the network that handed him the biggest microphone of his career that stunning announcement by fox news made this morning in a short statement that read, quote, fox news media and tucker carlson have agreed to partways. we thank him for his service to the network as a host and prior to that as a contributor carlson's last program was friday, april 21st new york times reports this, of. quote, tucker carlson was given no heads-up that his time at fox news had drawn to an end that's according to two people with knowledge of the timing of the conversation the anchor was told of the network's decision on monday morning, they said carlson's ouster comes at a time when that network, fox, is embroiled in a veritable mountain of legal trouble in which tucker carlson plays no small part just days ago fox news settled

with dominion voting systems for $787.5 million that was over fox's decision to broadcast in some instances rebroadcast election fraud conspiracies about dominion despite having plenty of doubts internally about whether there was actually any election fraud at all tucker carlson was one of the hosts who gave a platform to the broadcasting of those conspiracy theories filings from dominion reveal that tucker's boss rupert murdoch considered tucker to be such an integral voice on the right that he was among the three hosts that rupert murdoch at one point suggested should come out and say joe biden won the 2020 election. now, none of that happened now brand-new reporting from "the los angeles times" suggests tucker carlson's firing was a decision made by the head of the fox empire himself from that reporting, quote, people familiar with the

situation who were not authorized to comment publicly said the decision to fire carlson came straight from fox corp. chairman rupert murdoch. carlson's exit is related to the discrimination lawsuit filed by abby grossberg, the producer filed by the network last month. murdoch is said to be concerned over carler's coverage of the january 6th insurrection at the u.s. capitol the ouster of top fox news anchor tucker carlson is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends new york times political reporters jeremy peters and nick contessori are here. both have written extensively about tucker carlson and fox news including carlson's conspiracies at the network. and former senator claire mccaskill is back, lucky for us,

all msnbc contributors jeremy peters, i start with you. jeremy, you have the - >> oh. this is -- >> you're speechless, right? >> an extraordinary development. >> it is shocking. look, let's start here instead it is a shocking thing in our world that anybody that we cover and that also covers this moment has been fired it is extra shocking when that person happens to be literally the most-watched person at the most controversial network if you sort of had put it on a bingo card tucker carlson getting fired would be the story we all lead with today i don't think i would have believed you. >> and i wouldn't have believed anyone who told me that either, nicolle. i think the murdochs are not usually ones to make personnel moves that signal contrition

after controversies like the one that we've seen engulf their network involving dominion and its billion dollar defamation suit against fox i think when you look at what happened here, you know, it is all the more extraordinary because tucker carlson for months and months and months seemed to pay no price at all for what he said in those private text messages that were revealed as part of dominion's suit he belittled the president, the president's legal team, he says vulgar things about sidney powell, who we know as part of the lawsuit against him and fox news by the former producer. he's alleged to have presided over workplace environment where those same kinds of vulgar and misogynistic comments were made on a routine basis it is curious to me, you know, the timing of this comes right after the dominion settlement.

my reporting tells me that this was not part of the settlement, it was not negotiated as part of that, but that it seems that there's something here with his -- the threat of some type of human relations problem as it relates to his behavior. everyone has known what tucker carlson's beliefs are. we know his flirtations with white nationalism, his denigration of black civil rights activists and his demonization of immigrants that has all been widely known and it is what has made him a star on the right. so for fox all of a sudden to have problems with that, that's not typically how they -- today when fox lets go of big stars, think glen beck of the early 2010s or sarah palin

you know, these people were let go because they led people to believe that they were bigger than fox as far as fox is concerned, and i think they're right, no one person is ever bigger than the network itself >> i am glad that you have done this work of sort of separating out the issues because the timing leads to these questions about whether it was related to the dominion lawsuit, but the iceberg that is still more submerged than revealed is the abbie grossberg lawsuit and complaint, is that a fairway to describe that, jeremy? >> we know much less about that case and what she has alleged because all we have seen is her complaint. >> right. >> there hasn't been discovery yet, but we know she has tapes she's record it herself and her colleagues before. something tells me she seems like the kind of person who keeps receipts so there could be something there. we just don't know because it is

so early on and it was such a sudden announcement, i mean i was almost as surprised -- not quite, but almost as surprise it by this as news of the settlement in the dominion case last week. this story keeps delivering. >> yeah. i mean so let me read -- so abbie grossberg's lawyer was here friday and he said on this show she has 90 tapes. abbie grossberg herself weill be explosively here tomorrow at 5:00 let me read from her complaint the complaint reads as head of booking on tucker's show, ms. grossberg continued to endure a work environment that subjugates women based on vile sexist stereotypes, typecasts religious minorities and belittles their traditions and demonstrates little to know regard for those suffering from mental illness mr. carlson's derogatory comments towards women and his disdain for those who dare to

onto to such misogyny is well-known on the set of tct jeremy, we know what the discovery process yielded. we don't know all of it because the trial was averted, but we know some of what was revealed what does this portend if that's sort of a parallel track in terms of understanding where a legal process heads? what do you think -- i mean it seems to suggest if they fired tucker that they are not -- that they are perhaps interested in settling with abbie. is that your sense >> well, that i think we need to wait to see. i'm sure she and her lawyer will have something more to say on that i will say i think it is instructive to look at the history of fox news and the way it has let some of its biggest and most high-profile stars and executives go. when they let bill o'reilly go it wasn't because of anything he

said on the afir it was because women were accusing him of abhorrent conduct. when they let roger ailes go it wasn't because he allowed anything in particular to appear on fox, any of the statements its hosts had made about immigrants or, you know, anyone else, you know, very familiar with it was because he was a serial harasser of women. so they tend to make these moves not after controversies on the air but after something that puts them at considerable legal exposure >> nick, i want to bring you in on this because you did an extraordinary piece of reporting that included the visual journalism of seeing a lot of the language that tucker uses. i should have pulled it up for this conversation, but the things that are cited in some of the reporting that has emerged today, i think it is "the l.a. times" that cites these conspiracy theories, plat formed and elevated by tucker carlson

around january 6th they're also kricited as somethg that may have led rupert murdoch to make this decision. let me pay some of tucker's comments about january 6th >> what did happen exactly on january 6th? what's the truth of that day that's still unknown this was not an insurrection, but you know what will get you to insurrection? if you ignore the legitimate concerns of a population, if you brush them aside as if they don't matter >> to this day there's dispute over how chansley got into the capitol building according to our review of the internal surveillance video it is very clear what happened once he got inside. virtually every moment of his time inside the capitol was caught on tape the tapes show that capitol police never stopped jacob chansley, they helped him. whatever happened to brian sicknick was very obviously not the result of violence he suffered at the entrance to the capitol. >> my question for you, nick, is

kevin mccarthy famously gave tens of thousands of hours of security footage to tucker carlson shortly after becoming speaker. do we know where that security footage is today do we know if tucker took it with him >> i know, that's a great question i mean look, it was a sign of carlson's power he was able to basically force mccarthy to pledge to release those tapes as a condition of becoming speaker. i think his ouster is more the surprising because the story of tucker carlson over the years has been one where he has withstood controversy ore controversy. he has been talking down january 6th and reframing it as a good movement of innocent people for a year, a year and a half. he has been, you know, saying controversial things about women, minorities, immigrants for years and years, sometimes very racist things he has been popularizing conspiracy theories from the

white nationalist right for years. so why now that's the real question we are reporting on today, me and jeremy and many other it who cover this i'm not sure we know yet, but i do think the timing of it in conjunction with the end of the trial and the grossberg complaint from probably significant. i also would point out that fox is in the middle of trying to negotiate carriage fees with cable providers. it will be very in keeping with the murdoch's style to essentially try to assuage concern about their programming with other cable companies by cutting someone loose. they often deep six somebody and see if that satisfies the desire for blood, so to speak then they move on. they test the waters that's how they got rid of lou dobbs. that's how trish reagan came off the air. i'm really curious to see if this is a measured approach to some larger problem or a specific response to something that tucker did or said. >> i mean, tim, i don't buy that

enough was enough. i just don't they just paid $800 million so they didn't have to apologize to any one of their viewers i mean they could have negotiated some ham-fisted, 3:00 in the morning on saturday morning. nothing. they paid what they paid so that they never had to apologize for the lies about the election. and the reason they did that is revealed in discovery process, that they were so scared of losing viewers to news max after the election and now that they left tucker carlson go, he had to offend them with much more than the content what are your questions today? >> i defer to the other two gentlemen on their reporting, but i think observationally it is hard to disagree with them. i mean just look at the famous e-mail from rupert murdoch in the dominion discovery he said point-blank this decision is not about red or blue, it is about green. that's how he kept running mike lindell's ads each after lindell

was a key player in the insurrection it is all about the bottom line with these guise i t i think it would be apt for it to be the grossberg complaint. i'm excited to see that interview tomorrow sarah matthews, you know, testifying in the january 6th committee that for some reason falls on these relatively young women to speak out because all of the people that are supposedly in power are scared to you have imagine she has good stuff. you are to remember that carlson has had a parade of white nationalists working for him and it seems everybody on the production side behind the teleprompter must have had a secret handle they used on white nationalist websites i mean they've gone through quite a few of these guys from the daily caller to the tucker carlson production side of things who have said absolutely

disgusting and abhorrent things in private, even worse than what gets on tucker's show. you have to imagine what they were saying on the message boards probably they were saying in private i would assume abby grossberg has a lot to do with that. i do think that the thing about -- what this definitely isn't is fox just growing a conscience >> yes >> we already did all of this, a little bit of ground work, groundhog day after january 6th, like this will be the moment fox pivots years later and they're still airing january 6th conspiracy theories so as trump gains more and more power in the republican primary, it is very hard to imagine fox being a network that will be speaking truth to power about that when the front-runner for the republican nomination has already attempted a coup, you know, as he has in the past and is going to drag these guys into the gutter to have to defend him at every turn. so, you know, i think we can

kind of rule out the conscience reason for why they got rid of tucker that leaves open the questions for what it really was >> claire, the reason i don't buy the conscience is there is a brazen war criminal in vladimir putin carrying out atrocities for which there is abundant evidence, and this is how tucker carlson has been defending him >> so at this point nato exists primarily to torment vladimir putin who, whatever his many faults, has no intention of invading western europe. vladimir putin does not want belgium. he just wants to keep his western border secure. that's why he doesn't want ukraine to join nato and that makes sense. but what a second. why is it disloyal to side with russia but loyal to side with ukraine? what is this really about? why do i hate putin so much? has putin ever called me a racist has he threatened to get me fired for disagreeing with him >> it is kind of funny today,

right? not funny though i mean i think if you talk to western -- western european leaders, one of the flashing yellow lights about america is the influence of russian propaganda on american media, and the reason that makes people nervous and you see it manifesting. we now have a media run state, not state-run media. you have kevin mccarthy turning over all of the power to the fringey whack jobs, the whack jobs aligning themselves with vladimir putin and tucker serving as the american mouth piece for russian propaganda w whether it is on ukrainian bio weapon over and over he has contaminated the conversation with russian disinformation and it has a real global consequence. so i just don't buy that they woke up the monday after the dominion thing and they were like, oh, tucker did too much damage to democracy, enough. what do you think?

>> well, first of all, i notice the only solid job offer tucker got today was from russian news media. >> i missed that but it doesn't surprise me. >> oh, yeah. yeah, no, our team reached out immediately, that they would love to have him on the air. you know, the timing of this, the lawyer in me is thinking about representing fox in the dominion suit. i think if i had been representing them as a lawyer, which i wouldn't have ever done but just hypothetically, i would have said to them, firing tucker before this case is concluded would be seen by the jury as a form of admission. so i think its timing after the suit was over makes sense and, frankly, makes even more sense when you see what is on the horizon with the grossman suit so even though they're going after fox writ large in that suit it is really about tucker in that lawsuit. now fox can say, hey, we got rid

of him so all the bad press that's going to come from that suit -- and i predict there will be a lot of it. there will be a lot of juicy tidbits that will be consumed on social media and other places. i think that them being able to say, yeah, we got rid of him kind of protects fox in some weird way. i certainly agree with everyone else, that i don't think there was an epiphany when rupert murr kock watched the weekly episode of "succession" last night that he said, oh, i don't want to be like roy logan i don't think ruper murdoch had an epiphany about guilt over what they've done to the political discourse in america i do think it is financial and they are worried about more damage coming, and this was the cleanest way financially to clean house without having to fire everyone who put their handle on the big lie and the

false conspiracies that have been the entre at fox since donald trump took office jeremy, one thing i learned from your reporting and nick's and from covering the dominion trial myself is sometimes we over think things, right we think there are a million brain -- you know, brain surgeons in a room sometimes it is as simple as personal animosity let me read some of the things tucker carlson had to say about his bosses though -- are destroying our credibility, he wrote. a combination of incompetent liberals in top leadership with too much pride to back down is what is happening. that's what he thought of them i guess today we find out what he t they thought of him? >> right, and you also learned something else in the court filings that i don't think has been put out there too much but it should be that's that many of these personalities that you assume have a larger than life,

too-big-to-fail persona often exaggerate their relationship with the bosses. we know tucker said -- or left the impression at least he was close to lachland murdoch. in his deposition, which is under oath, of course, he was asked about that relationship. he admitted that his relationship was not especially close and he only rarely spoke with lachland murdoch and when he was asked to define rarely he said not even once a week or on a weekly -- not even on a weekly or monthly basis so i think that, you know, if the murdochs indeed are behind this, which you have to imagine they at least had to have some knowledge or role in it since it is their company, i think tucker is just the latest example of somebody at fox news who thought that they were just bigger than the network was. >> yeah. no, and you're right, there have been so very -- i mean in that same time slot, famous examples of fox news and fox corp.

proving any of those people wrong. jeremy peters, we will continue to rely on you and look for your reporting on this story. thank you for starting us off. everyone else sticks around rnlt again, tomorrow we will have chance to speak exclusively with former fox producer abby grossberg right here on the show about her time with tucker carlson, about the getting fired from the shoet and her ongoing lawsuit against the network and new evidence she has as the lawsuit moves forward. up next for us, more on today's big news some unhinged reaction from those on the right it is delicious. we will show it to you plus, another target of tucker carlson's conspiracies, a january 6th rioter speaks out for the first time and says tucker carlson was obsessed with him and talking about him, and as a result he said he and his family have faced ongoing death threats and have turned his whole life upside down we will show that to you later in the show, trump's

criminal exposure to the january 6th investigation reportedly widening there is new reporting on how much more he knew about the specific attempts to overturn the 2020 election. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" corres continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. (water splashing) hey, dad... hum... what's the ocean like? ♪ are there animals living underwater? ♪ is the ocean warm? yeah, it can be very warm. ♪ you were made to remember some days forever.

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i've been all in trying to find the machine fraud, and we found it we have all of testified so all of these outlets that have been calling me from "the washington post," new york times, every outlet in the country, they go, mike lindell, there's no evidence and he is

making fraudulent statements no, i have the evidence. i dare people to put it on i dare dominion to sue me because then it would get on faster >> tim miller and claire, that was one of the exhibits, nick, we would have seen should this dominion defamation case have gone to trial. that was one of the places that the -- what was allegedly defamatory i guess they settled what was defamatory was published, it was on tucker's show i should point out the other side of the story. marjorie taylor greene for one is standing by her man she has tweeted this, cable news is about to be taught a powerful message after fox news caved to the woke mob they no longer watch the ones that have the coverage to tell the truth. americans are about to quit watching i mean, look, nick, we'll see, but to jeremy's great reporting and yours, fox does have a track

record of proving that if you cut off the head they are always able to grow a newone, especially in this time slot >> well, to use a different metaphor i would say fox has always prided itself on growing talent from within and on having a system that doesn't really kind of rely on the particular people who are in the line-up at any given time they've always found new people. point out bill o'reilly was cast from the heights of fox news they took tucker carlson to replace him. carlson was then only, you know, less than a year i believe into his time in the primetime line-up. they have always tried to groom their own talent and ensure that the ratings stay up regardless of who is in the chair it is not always that simple, but i think this will be a very interesting test case to see if congresswoman green is right or if the fox system can prevail, if they can put in jesse waters or someone else in the slot and

have the ratings not move. if they don't move, it proves what roger ailes said about the network which is that it doesn't matter who is sitting in the chair, it is the system that he built that is responsible for the ratings. i will be curious to see if there is some revolt i'm also very curious to see where tucker goes after this, if he has any lock-ups that prevent him or limit him from starting competing programs certainly it would be harmful for fox if he was able to take a version of the carlson show over to newsmax or one america or even youtube we'll see. >> tim, you know, we have -- because the dominion trial loomed and then it didn't happen, we focused a lot on the conspiracies about 2020, and we will cover the episode in a minute but the replacement theory i think is where a lot of people think he has radicalized his viewers and given safe haven to some of the most hateful and

dangerous ideologies in our country. he was -- he seemed, at least his broadcast persona, he seemed very comfortable and proud to advocate on behalf of something so toxic that really none of the other hosts at fox seemed to touch it when you assess the damage done by tucker carlson, how dou you sort of rank his favorite conspiracies >> oh, boy, a ranking is challenging. i will get to the end, i'll think through it there's so much out there, so much carnage out there look, here is the thing with tucker and where i do think that he is a bit of a category difference from some of these other names we have discussed, people that have come in and out of there, the o'reillys, the dobbs, the trish regans who have been pushed out and replaced tucker -- no pun intended with replacement theory, but tucker was unique in that he was ideologically influencing the audience, right, in addition to

inheriting the audience and inheriting the party line. the great replacement theory is one example of this, leading to the question of claire about ukraine. that is another example where he was standing out from most of the other hosts over there at fox. on this january 6th stuff he was willing to go there with the conspiracy like the one with epps that we're about to get into in a way the other hosts were not i think as a broader message, tucker more embraced this maga view that does not care that much about the old three-legged stool of republican politics, lower taxes, less riegulations, strong military abroad and moved it over towards this nationalist, populous, racist, let's be blunt about it, conservatism i think the replacement theory is unapologetically saying it is a concern, you should be concerned, you should be scared that brown people are coming into this country to replace you

and to replace your way of life. that kind of message is, again, a category difference from the other stuff on fox, and when you are hearing that a certain percentage of the viewers hearing that, that is radicalizing in a way that is different than some of these other issues that you are talking about. because when you are hearing that "they," in other is stealing your life and is changing everything that you cherish about this country, it is not that big of a step over to violence, to violent protest, towards the radicalization pipeline tucker was willing to go there in a way the other hosts weren't. i think that is going to give him a stickier audience for whatever happens next. i just think it makes him more dangerous than, you know, your run of the mill fox host is kind of replaced with the next person in the talent pool >> yeah. he wasn't willing to go there out of an act of courage he was will go to go there in places that were unfounded we should point out that the

replacement theory was shouted in the mass shooter man fifesto shooter and the buffalo shooter and maybe even the tree of life shooter. he was talking about some of the things that were sticky with some of the most dangerous people our country has known in the most recent violent history. he is seen as doing damage to the u.s. military. he waged a campaign on his broadcast against a woke military and he was viewed by people inside and close to the military as doing real damage. >> yeah, he was a wrecking crew for some of the most idealistic notions that america was founded upon and whether it is trusting institutions or trusting our military, our law enforcement or foreign policy and who are the real bad guys in the world versus those who do want freedom and democracy, really did some serious damage i have to tell you, what does he

do next? nicolle, i'm not going to be shocked if you runs for president. i'm really not >> yeah. >> look what he has. you know, he has a built-in base he has an incredible ability to raise money online he would certainly be a bigger threat to donald trump than the guy who thinks mickey mouse is the right enemy. i just think that -- i don't know if anybody has heard from trump today. i tried to look around before we came on the air. i didn't see anything. but i bet you trump is worried about it i bet you trump is worried that tucker is going to declare candidacy for the united states presidency >> i think that's an important thing to keep our eye on the trump lesson is when your tv career ends run for president. we know tucker for one has learned it neck for being here and for your wealth of knowledge about tucker and fox, thank you so much

tim, thank you for being part of our coverage claire sticks around a little bit longer as we've been discussing, when tucker carlson speaks his audience listens closely the consequences of a right-wing mob desperately following the dangerous rants of a primetime star congressman eric swalwell will be our guest next. [ imitates trumpet playing ] and we wanted to thank america's number-one motorcycle insurer -for saving us money. -thank you. [ laughs ] mara, your parents are -- exactly like me? i know, right? well, cherish your friends and loved ones. let's roll, daddio! let's boogie-woogie!

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they've never been charged what's that about? is this guy going to be charged? we've got what seems like an actual insurrectionist on tape but they don't want to talk about it, and they definitely don't want you to talk about it. the question is, did ray epps work or have any contact with any government agency. did he talk about january 6th before it happened with any employee of the u.s. government? we don't know. the mysterious figure called ray epps encouraged the crowd to go into the capitol for some reason epps has never been indicted for that >> an actual insurrectionist in a day the court wasn't -- which one was it an example, a frequently cited one, of how tucker carlson took wild conspiracies running rampant on far right wing websites and dangerously amplified them and repeated them over and over again without any evidence that they were true, for his own benefit. carlson, along with members of

congress and the twice impeached, now indicted ex-president himself were so desperate for january 6th alternate reality, a scapegoat, that they turned on one of their own promoting the theory that ray epps -- do you know who he really is? he is a former oath keepers member, a two-time trump voter and january 6th rally goer who acknowledged he, quote, helped orchestrate the movements. he was accused of inciting the mob. he confirms to "60 minutes" that, quote, ray epps has never been an fbi source or an fbi employee epps too is speaking out, telling "60 minutes" he doesn't understand how he was cast as the villain and here is what he thinks of tucker carlson >> he's obsessed with me he's going to any means possible to destroy my life and our

lives. >> why >> to shift blame on somebody else >> joining our coverage, democratic congressman eric swalwell of california he has long been a target of the far right and tucker carlson specifically he has faced very serious threats as a result. claire is still with us. congressman, i'm not going to play the threats you got but i remember this tweet because i had you on that day. you tweeted, quote, listen to this, it is the tucker carlson affect tucker attacks me, his fans respond with threats to kill my family tucker knows exactly what he is doing. your reaction to his ending his relationship with fox news >> tucker carlson is amazon prime for death threats. no one has delivered them to our home faster than tucker carlson. nicolle, this morning u.s. capitol police were at my home retrieving for examination a threat letter that was mailed to us over the weekend. we see a direct connection to

every program that includes me on tucker carlson and the death threats that come in by voicemail or mailed to our home. for example, last week right after the dominion settlement was announced, you didn't hear tucker carlson that evening apologize for the role he played in the nearly $1 billion settlement no, he went after me and lied about me more. what is interesting, nicolle, he has told so many lies about me that it has changed everything about how i protect myself and what we spend to protect me and my family and he will go after the expenses it is this feedback loop that he has created. yeah, he generates more death threats for me than any enemy of his. so i don't know if the threats are going to go away, but one concern i do have, nicolle, amend i bet the senator shares the same concern, who gets the january 6th tapes now?

tucker carlson possesses those kevin mccarthy put those in tucker carlson's hands there were probably some constraints i hope by fox, especially post dominion suit being brought, but if you have a disgrun disgruntled employee walking around with 40 hours of security footage, i worry what could happen to them i hope kevin mccarthy will ask him for the tapes back >> we asked the question at the beginning of our show, and there was no reporting on this yet what is your message for kevin mccarthy is it incumbent on him to regain possession of the actual tapes >> to speaker mccarthy, you gave tucker carlson these tapes that puts all of our lives at risk and it is your responsibility to ask tucker carlson for the tapes back otherwise, you know, what comes next, you know, that's going to be something we are all exposed to >> congressman, i read all of

the epps reporting i just thought it was such a bizarre fixation on tucker carlson's part it is where he sort of tried to present himself as an investigative journalist i guess to his viewers he was on to this epps theory. the fbi which famously doesn't say anything came out and said epps doesn't work for us, he wasn't a source, he wasn't an informant informant. epps is speaking out on "60 minutes" talking about tucker's obsession with him what he has done to you is without justification and it is his playbook when he singles people out with the size of his megaphone, he puts them all in danger what is the, you know, sort of correct consequence for that i mean it don't -- there's no evidence that that is why he got fired from fox news. >> that's right. well, the correct consequence would be that fox would not put on, you know, another first tee

of disinformation in a factory, you know, for death threats, that they would put someone on who is going to more responsibly deliver content to their viewers, nicolle what is so maddening about tucker carlson is that i have personally text messaged him and told him, when you say these lies they bring death threats to my family. his response has always been, you should stop using your family as a shield that's what he has written back to me when i tell him this ironically, nicolle, which people went and harassed his family years ago at his home i sent out a tweet condemning that, saying that, you know, we don't go after families. you know, you don't raise your concerns that way. so he knows. he's on notice from me and people like ray epps the good news here though, and maybe we shouldn't give fox too much credit but he is off the air tonight, is that americans are rejecting extremism. we saw that in 2020 at the ballot box with joe biden being elected. democrats defied expectations

because we ran in the great big center in 2022 while the republicans ran toward the lies of january 6th, and so i think for democrats, you know, we should take that and run with it, that americans want community over chaos and that chaos continues to lose. it is slow it is not as fast as we need it to lose, but chaos is losing in america right now. >> i mean unfortunately it wasn't a ratings loser i wonder what you do about the other end of the problem, congressman, and i want to bring claire in on this as well, that tucker carlson's audience and tucker, for people that watch my show, that don't check on tucker carlson, they know i do it for them, he isn't -- he promotes replacement theory, he promotes a woke military in a way that sources close to the military say is dangerous for the country, for the military. he attacked the fbi with conspiracy theories, one small

example is mr. epps. he attacks your life when, as you say, warning him that your family is at risk. he promotes election conspiracies and he carries the water for vladimir putin in a way that hasn't yet been explained to my satisfaction i don't know why he does that. what does it say to you, congressman, that there's a massive, you know, multi-millions every night of americans that watch that? >> yeah, well, nicolle, first and foremost he is not on tonight, as i said, so that's a good thing second, think i think we have tt give up on americans who have listened to him and bought into all of this. you know, if you write people off you just give them an excuse, you know, to alienate themselves from trusted news sources. so i don't think we should be in the business of writing anybody off. but, three, now that fox again

has, you know, for whatever reason fired him and in the last week settled this case with dominion for the lies that were told on their air, you know, we should continue, i would say, to put the screws to fox and to any, you know, source of different -- disinformation and expect better because now the standard has been set. he is not in that valuable hour for them so we are not powerless, you know, as we go forward again, we just have to keep pushing for competency and community and for that to triumph over chaos >> claire, i want to bring you in on it >> yes, and i think it is important to remember, nicolle, yes, he had a lot of people watch his show but he averaged s standards. but 150 million people voted for president. so really what tucker has done, if you want to try to make lemonade out of really, really bitter lemons, he has fed this

extremist trope. he has contributed to the base of the republican party becoming so extreme that they are being rejected by independent voters across this country. they're being rejected for their crazy worshiping guns. they're being rejected for telling rape victims they have to have forced birth in this country. they're being reject for all these extreme positions, many of which are underpinned by tucker's own conspiracy theories so he has calcified this extremism in the republican party. and in the long run that's not going to help them win elections. what's going to help them win electionsize what the congressman just referred to that grand and glorious middle that understands we need to unite and come together around the principles that make america special. >> it's such a great point and congressman, i know you're always thinking about policy and politics and where they intersect. but you've got 85% of americans,

including a majority of republicans who would like to see background checks passed you've now got 85%, it's the largest number i think since they've been asking the question, of people who think abortion should be safe in all or most instances. the cases where the republican party have gone more extreme have moved the numbers in the wrong direction for their electoral prospects. what do you make of the opportunity democrats have today? >> if we can distinguish between the signal and the noise we will continue to win and grow our majorities and tucker carlson has been the noise, right because to your pot, when 80-plus percent of americans support violent history checks to purchase a firearm and then tucker carlson fires up the 15% to 20% who don't, well, those 15% to 20% are the ones who call congressional offices, who make death threats about what will happen if you take their guns, and then it gets in the heads of elected officials who think that's where everyone is, and then that gets in the way of

progress that can help people. so again, our job is not to go where the noise is but to go where the heartbeat is for americans on gun violence, on women's reproductive rights. and again, if we can just stay true to that, we're going to grow our majorities everywhere >> so if you guys have been on your phones at all today you know it's one of those days where the breaking news comes in costco-sized portions. we have more there's breaking news that was just handed to he me that involves the investigation into the 2020 election by fulton county district attorney fani willis the "atlanta journal-constitution" was first to report this "fulton county district attorney fani willis on monday said she would announce this summer whether former president donald trump and his allies would be charged with crimes related to alleged interference in georgia's 2020 election. willis revealed the timetable in a letter to local law enforcement in which she asked them to be ready for, quote, heightened security and preparedness because she predicted her announcement,

quote, may provoke a significant public reaction. in the letters willis said she will announce possible criminal indictments between july 11th and september 1st, sending one of the strongest signals yet that she's on the verge of trying to obtain an indictment against trump and his supporters congressman, i'll give you the first reaction to that breaking news >> that must be allowed to proceed, nicolle, because all we want is for donald trump to be treated no better or worse than any other suspect in america and there are efforts right now in georgia to stop that investigation. he deserves every bit of protection under the constitution and due process under law. but he does not deserve for politicians to intervene on his behalf and so i'm encouraged that at least right now the rule of law continues down its track in georgia. and if donald trump via that grand jury was found, as we suspect, you know, to have tried to interfere unlawfully in the 2020 election then he should be

held responsible as any other american would >> you know, claire, there's an accountability piece for trump and his supporters in the senate and the house and in states all over this country, and i want to read more from the ajc reporting. "trump has called for mass demonstrations in response to overreach from prosecutors and triggered concerns about violent unrest not unlike the january 6, 2020 insurrection he promoted. i don't know when we became a country that was too broken to call for calm to let the system work its course, but these prosecutors, alvin bragg before her and fani willis now, have had to take extraordinary steps to protect themselves, their grand juries, their staffs and their citizens that is -- you can draw a direct line between the steps they've had to take and donald trump's rhetoric

>> well, it will be interesting to see my first question in hearing this news is why 60 days from now? and why would she put a letter out like this unless she wants everyone to get used to the idea before it happens and maybe that does take some of the drama out of it. but to me justice delayed is justice denied and all of the justice surrounding the big lie, the fake electors, the effort to overturn an election through fraud, it has percolated for way too long in this country without there being charges filed on those things so hopefully this will happen. hopefully the reaction in georgia will be similar to what it was in new york when he called for everyone to demonstrate and 12 people showed up i think he was bitterly disappointed that his route to the courthouse when he showed up on those charges that alvin bragg had made, that there were an awful lot of guards against crowds where there were no

crowds, where there were no people standing to greet him and wave at him. i think there were only like 20 or 30 people out in front of mar-a-lago so hopefully that will continue to be the case and we won't have civil unrest around it. but the law has to work. and our system is designed that there's both state laws and federal laws and there's no reason why this state prosecutor should not pursue the facts and apply the law, and as the congressman said give trump all the constitutional protections that every american citizen has just don't give him a free pass. >> yeah. and for her part d.a. fani willis has always treated him as someone who could be a potential defendant and has always worked to preserve all of his rights as such congressman eric swalwell, a two-fer on all the breaking news stories swirling around today. thank you very much for being with us. and claire mccaskill, thank you for spending monday with us. we have much more on this breaking news and lots more to cover. don't go anywhere. we'll beig rht back after a really short break stay with us

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the three of them were really sort of forcefully attacking me verbally. eric -- and we were pushing back and we were asking one simple question as a general matter. where is the evidence? is so -- >> what response did you get when you asked this panel of your colleagues -- >> a variety of responses based on my current recollection including, i can't believe you would say something -- things like this, like what do you mean where's the evidence you should know. things like that or, you know -- a disregard, i would say, a general disregard for the importance of actually backing up what you say with the facts. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york now.

where's the beef that's all he wanted to know described by january 6th committee member jamie raskin as, quote, the craziest meeting of the trump presidency. where you just heard from white house counsel pat cipollone talk about a quote disregard for backing up what they said with facts. it was a wild meeting held in the oval office on december 18th, 2020 now, remember that date because what ensued that night was an hours-long duel between trump's own insiders, his allies on one side included sidney powell and mike flynn and several white house lawyers on the other they clashed over outlandish claims of voter fraud and ideas about what donald trump should do in order to overturn the results of the 2020 election the meeting at times, as you just heard there, became very heated people shouting and hurling insults at each other according to people who were in the room now, among the many out there election conspiracies discussed that night in that meeting was

this the idea that trump could issue an executive order to direct the federal government to seize highly sensitive voting machines and data it's a thought that cipollone stated would be a, quote, terrible idea. >> why was this bron a broader scale a bad idea for the country? >> to have the federal government seize voting machines that's a terrible idea for the country. that's not how we do things in the united states. there's no legal authority to do that and there is a way to contest elections, you know. it happens all the time. but the idea that the federal government could come in and seize election machines, that's -- i don't understand why we'd have to tell you why that's a bad idea for our country >> looking back, and why we're

looking back on this insane meeting and the insane things that were discussed, so insane that pat cipollone doesn't know why he has to tell the january 6th select committee why it was such a terrible idea why? other than just sheer disbelief that it ever happened in the first place. is because it is now being recognized as a potential new front of criminal exposure for the twice-impeached now indicted ex-president himself according to a brand new letter to doj and the fbi from a legal advocacy group called free speech for people, since trump was presiding over that meeting and heard about this plan, this idea to seize the machines, he was, quote, at a minimum aware of the unlawful multistate plot, end quote. the letter cites the transcript of derek lyons' testimony to the 1-6 select committee lyons served as white house staff secretary and he spoke about how rudy giuliani specifically mentioned getting access to voting machines in georgia in order to find evidence of fraud.

the letter from free speech for people continues quote, less media and public attention have been focused on the fact that the testimony also includes references to a parallel plan for non-governmental individuals and entities to access voting systems. the stated goal of this effort to gain access to software and electronic data was to help construct narratives that would support overturning the election the plan did proceed, and after a few failed attempts was executed to successfully obtain copies of voting system software in michigan and in georgia all of this boils down to what the "new york times" describes this way in reporting over the weekend. quote, allies of trump ultimately succeeded in copying the election software in those two states and the breach of voting data in georgia is being examined by prosecutors as part of a broader criminal investigation into whether trump and his allies interfered in the presidential election there the ex-president's participation in the georgia plan could increase his risk of possible legal exposure there

all of it can be viewed in a whole new life following the breaking news we just shared with you minutes ago fulton county d.a. fani willis is prepping law enforcement to prepare for indictments this summer this is where we begin the hour. joining us now, democratic congresswoman zoe lofgren of california a former member of the house select committee on january 6th. and mark harris is here. he was senior investigative counsel for the january 6th select committee he had the mission specifically of doing some of this investigation into the voting machines mark, let me start with you. i saw this story pop up. i read it three times. is this making sure that this crush of work that came out in the final report and the transcripts, is it missed by doj? tell me what this effort is about as far as you understand it from this advocacy group. >> well, i'm not sure what their motivation was in sending the letter i do know that it draws heavily on some of the material thats come out in the litigation in

georgia and the raffensperger case that's referenced in the letter i know that's material that those folks in that litigation want to see brought to light and perhaps they've just -- they've had the report and they can see some of the material that maybe we didn't highlight in the hearings or in the report per se but they've read the transcripts and there is a fair amount of material in there that for various space reasons and otherwise wasn't necessarily highlighted and they seem to think that they want to call attention to it apparently >> to be honest, i've heard from a lot of people who've pointed me toward things that were in the transcripts that maybe didn't get a lot of attention. in defense of the committee, it was literally being shut down, pushing out information as kevin mccarthy was getting ready for his what turned out to be ludicrous run for the speakership. but what is it about the four referrals and the fact there isn't really public evidence that anything is imminent from jack smith that you think makes

groups jumpy, makes them feel like they have to take this step of saying hey hey, look here >> well, this has been going on for over a year now of people who feel that based on what they've seen that charges should be brought and they're not happy with the pace at which things are developing and so oftentimes we see reports or people speaking out publicly saying, well, nothing's happening, jack smith isn't doing it swha what's fani willis up to and then something will come out, a report that people are before the grand jury or there's litigation, that reveals these folks are busy and they are doing their jobs i was a federal prosecutor for many years and i know that sometimes things don't work at the pace that certain victims or the public wants to see but it's moving and i think the story you just broke at the beginning of this segment suggests that as senator mccaskill said maybe it's slower than she would like but things

are happening and ms. willis seems like she has a timetable in mind. >> i think the anxiety comes from two things. the reality that the behavior's ongoing on trump's part and the reality that we are a country at greater risk because domestic violent extremism has intersected with lies about the 2020 election. it's not the fault of either of you two. you've worked to make sure that the truth gets out and gets out quickly. congresswoman, i want to ask you just in the plainest way you can explain it what was trump's role in the plan to seize voting machines >> well, you know, as usual, as any good mob boss would, he had others do the nitty-gritty to preserve a little deniability but there's no question he knew about it and i think it's obvious he was interested in any scheme that would promote his goal of overturning the election at one point the acting director, department of homeland security, had to tell him we

can't do that. i mean, it's not permissible so certainly he was aware of the whole thing. we have testimony from mr. giuliani and by the way, it's great to see mark again we worked so closely for so long in the committee you know, going back to what we've got on line, we were scrambling to get the report done i think we did a good report but i was insistent along with all the other members that everything get out there, all the transcripts. and i'm confident that the department of justice as well as state prosecutors who are pursuing matters have thoroughly reviewed what the committee provided that's what we wanted to have out there. and i'm sure that is factoring in to their own processes. >> from your lips, congresswoman. let me take our viewers through the evidence we've sort of gone back and recreated some of what the group reference in their letter.

let me first play some of the testimony that the committee and in some instances mark, you're doing some of this questioning this is testimony, sworn testimony from pat cipollone and eric herschmann and others of this meeting >> i don't think any of these people were providing the president with good advice and so i didn't understand how they had gotten in >> i was asking if you claimed the democrats were working with hugo chavez, the venezuelans and anybody else. >> at times there were people shouting at each other, hurling insults at each other. it wasn't just sort of people sitting around on the couch like chitchatting >> cipollone and herschmann and whoever the other guy was showed nothing but contempt and disdain of the president >> i think it got to the point where the screaming was

completely, completely out there. you had people walking in, it was late at night, it had been a long day, and what they were proposing i thought was nuts >> it might be the only time i believe something sidney powell said here's derek lyons is the lawyer in the middle. not as familiar to people who watched the public hearings. but he speaks after cipollone and herschmann and this is from his transcript. later in the evening when he was there in person rudy's point of view was that in some way the campaign i believe was going to be able to secure access to voting machines in georgia through means other than seizure. that, you know, the access would be -- i don't know what the right word is. but you know, voluntary. like it wouldn't be coerced and that, you know, examination of those machines would begin to show the evidence of the allegations that were being made how does rudy, mark, ever think that raffensperger and his deputy gabe sterling have been in front of cameras speaking publicly and

transparently about the georgia results thrice audited there was never any fraud in georgia. what is your sense of the significance of that testimony from lyons >> so there is -- there's been a lot of testimony, and we played a fair amount at the hearings and you see it in the report about this sort of insane unhinged nature of the fight that was mostly over these executive orders and whether the president should sign an executive order to seize the machines and also the issue of whether sidney powell should be appointed special counsel to lead that investigation. the part that derek lyons is talking about is that at the end of the meeting, after this -- towards the end of the meeting, after it had moved from the oval office up to the white house residence late on the night of the 18th rudy giuliani came over he was summoned and joined the meeting late and started talking about a plan to voluntarily access the machines. rudy was against -- excuse me, mr. giuliani was againsted concept of seizing the machines, having the military seize the machines, but he assured the president that there was another

plan that he had in the works and that was to get the machines voluntarily. and as you see in that letter that you cited at the beginning of the segment, through this litigation in georgia some details about what actually happened in georgia have come out. and there's videotape showing that georgia election officials allowed trump allies to access the machines, seize the hard drives and those hard drives have been disseminated, as one memo on the subject says, in the wild so that's the aspect of the scheme that mr. lyons was referring to mr. powell -- excuse me, ms. powell and mr. giuliani spoke a little bit about it but we're fairly confident that at that meeting that topic was brought up in front of the president, the then president >> so let me ask you to put your prosecutor hat back on, marc is this conduct that you believe to be chargeable by fani willis? do you think -- she's just

announced a few minutes ago she's going to be prepared to issue her indictments between july 11th and september 1st. i mean, are these the acts that you thought the committee had mustered plenty of evidence of wrongdoing for >> well, i'll let congresswoman lofgren talk about sort of the basis for our referral and what the acts were to sort of led to that but there's no question in my mind that the fulton county district attorney is on to this issue based on public reporting. this whole issue of accessing voting machines through the use of public officials. there's been public reporting about some of the people on that video that i alluded to have been brought before the grand jury so whether that's sort of the basis of the concerns regarding the former president, i can't say. i do know that is the access to the machines didn't happen until january 7th in coffey county, which is where this video took

place. and there's discussions and there's been some public reporting about how that information was to be used after january. or in january. so i don't know. i don't know i can't say how prominently figures in d.a. willis's assessment >> congresswoman, let me show one more piece of reporting from our organization and just pick up this thread with you. nbc's confirmed the existence of text messages that reveal trump allies discussed using this data we talked about, data breach from georgia voting machines to potentially decertify the 2021 senate runoff election results the key quote comes in a message from jim penrose, a former nsa official working with trump's team quote, we only have until saturday to decide if we're going to try to use this report to try to decertify the senate runoff election or if we hold it for a bigger movement later. i mean, it feels like smoking gun evidence that they were inside these machines figure out how to sow distrust in the results with their fraudulent

meddling i mean, what in your view is the appropriate consequence from law enforcement? >> well, the district attorney will be taking a look at that as will the department of justice they're going to have an opportunity to learn things the committee could not. if you read -- and it's online rudy giuliani's testimony. for large -- most of the questions he refused to answer he claimed it was attorney-client privilege. and we now know that there is a fraud crime exception. he's going to have to answer those questions. but i think it's logical that the president was very aware of this and that giuliani was in cahoots potentially with those who unlawfully seized the software from the machines they knew that the election was

not fraudulent in fact, giuliani explained they didn't have the evidence otherwise. so this is really just a corrupt scheme to overturn the election and potentially more than one election and you know, when you step back from it, we got so involved over the two years with the committet it's just starkly outrageous what these individuals did i mean, what a threat to our democracy, really. >> well, the committee has referred four crimes to doj. conspiracy to defraud the united states, obstruction of an official proceeding, conspiracy to make a false statement, insighting assisting and aiding or comforting an insurrection. i mean, none of the people we're talking about, sidney powell, rudy giuliani, none of the lawyers involved have been charged or it hasn't been reported any of them have received word they're targets of a federal investigation. trump doesn't stay in power if he only overturns georgia. i mean, georgia's nonsensical.

as a state stand-alone prosecution. congresswoman, where's merrick garland? >> well, they don't report to members of congress about where they are and they shouldn't that's not their job if they have something to say, they say it when they file an indictment so i don't know any more than anyone else where they are but we can see the people who are coming in to grand juries both in the department of justice inquiry and also in the georgia state inquiry, and i think looking at who's coming in it looks like they're pursuing the same things that we suggested. but that's just speculation given who is coming in to testify to the grand jury. i'll just say this they need to be thorough they shouldn't indict unless they believe they can convict. but the sooner they can make a decision the better off we are i think having this hanging over

the public without a decision is not helpful. and so i'm hopeful that they will get to where they're ready to decide either to indict or not to whatever the facts lead them to be and so the country can move on >> marc, you are from there, not congress, you are a former federal prosecutor in terms of the quality of the evidence that the committee passed on to doj, is it of the same quality of evidence that you would have viewed as good enough to make a determination to indict? >> well, first, i echo what ms. lofgren said in terms of what they -- these investigators, both the federal and the georgia, fulton county investigators have access to a lot more information and to more witnesses than we had access to for time reasons and otherwise and so i have no doubt that the evidence that has been gathered by jack smith and fani willis

is -- while it may be on the same path as ms. lofgren says as the committee was looking at, it's deeper and it's corroborated and there are witnesses who can put a little more meat on the bones that the committee provided in terms of whether it's sufficient to bring charges, i don't want to speculate based on not knowing exactly what they've found and what charges they're looking at and who they're looking at so i'd rather not speculate on that >> congresswoman, someone who was very skeptical of the body of work that the committee did was the 8:00 p.m. anchor at fox news, tucker carlson he will not anchor that hour on fox news ever again. tox news has fired him your reaction. >> well, i think it's a blessing for the country and perhaps the world. we know that he lied knowingly to his audience. he distorted the facts constantly and really to upend civil order

and democratic society that he did the false narrative on january 6th is really a start example. but you can go back over the years. multiple lies that he told the country and his audience i think it's probably a good thing that he's not there but we don't know why he was fired. fox allowed him to continue to spew lies for years. so whether it was that or some other matter, it's speculation at this point. but you know, maybe there's an opening at pravda or russian tv, so he can get a job. >> he's been offered a job, i understand would you like to know the chain of custody for the 40,000 hours of security footage that kevin mccarthy transferred to tucker carlson, congresswoman >> i would it's my understanding that the -- fox did not get custody of the entire 40,000 hours however, they did get custody of

some of it and of course they used it distort what happened. when you have an event like that, not every single moment is somebody punching out a cop. i mean, some of it's walking to punch out the next cop so to use the interim to say, well, nothing happened here was obviously absurd and really an insult to the office when people contact me by e-mail, i just send them back the footage of the maga mob attacking the police on the western steps. >> it's a blessing to the country and the world might be the best thing i've heard all day about tucker carlson's firing congresswoman zoe lofgren and marc harris, thank you so much for helping us dig into this story. it's confusing but you helped a whole lot. thank you very much. when we come back, much more on that other breaking news out of georgia that we're covering. our first glimpse at a window into when charges against donald trump and his inner circle could be announced for their work in

trying to overturn donald trump's election loss in georgia. later in the program, how republicans tired of voters voicing their support for abortion rights are now trying to keep the abortion issue off the ballot completely because it hurts them it's another sign of a party completely out of step with the american mainstream doubling down on its anti-democratic practices. plus on the eve of the e. jean carroll defamation rape trial, this moment for the disgraced twice-impeached and indicted ex-president is getting even more legally perilous. we'll preview what we can expect in court tomorrow. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick eabrk. don't go anywhere. (cecily) you're looking pleased with yourself. (seth) not to brag, but i just switched to verizon. (cecily) so you got an awesome network... (seth) and when i switched, i got to choose the phone i wanted. for free. not bragging. (cecily) you're bragging. (neighbor) oh, he's bragging. (seth) who, me? never. oh, excuse me. hello, your royal highness, sir... (cecily) okay, that's a brag. (seth) hey, mom. i gotta call you back.

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there's so much news we're zigging and zagging. that was a zig this is the zag. back to the news that broke out of georgia today from the "atlanta journal-constitution. we are now joined by political reporter and msnbc contributor greg bluestein also joining our coverage "new york times" reporter katie benner and our friend frank figliuzzi is here, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence. greg, katie and frank thank the lord all msnbc contributors. greg, take us through what you and your paper are reporting >> yeah, i'm happy to help you zig and zag any day. we have a letter from district attorney fani willis where she's indicating her timeline to announce indictments is now between july and september, which is a significant shift because 134 legal experts thought it could be as soon as next month but it's also a clear signal she

might be trying to obtain an indictment against the former president and his allies she's also asking law enforcement officials to be prepared for protests and other potential threats of violence around the fulton county courthouse regarding her decision >> let me read that part of her letter it says open source intelligence has indicated the announcement of decisions in this case may provoke a significant public reaction we have seen in recent years that some may go outside of public expressions of opinion that are protected by the first amendment to engage in acts of violence that will endanger the safety of our community. as leaders it is incumbent upon us to prepare. the open source intelligence, the internet, the comments section, i mean, tell me about the very real and pragmatic considerations that have to be made to protect not just the d.a. but any juries that are involved, any reporters covering

it, any citizens around or near and any law enforcement that have to protect those individuals. >> we've already seen law enforcement having to ramp up security around the fulton county courthouse. several times during this ongoing probe already. it's not lost upon the d.a. and other law enforcement officials that this could get a lot more serious, a lot more potentially dangerous. and the d.a. and her team i can tell you they've been closely watching what unfolded in new york, the protests and counterprotests, the threats of violence there, and there's a concern it could be magnified in atlanta where legal experts believe that the charges against donald trump should they come could be even more serious >> frank, this is where the alleged misconduct will intersect with the big lie donald trump has told his base of supporters. that is one way in which fani willis's cases should she bring them against donald trump would be different the other is it's new york city, donald trump is not particularly popular here

new york city has a police force that is studied the world over it is different. on the other hand, she would not be the first person to indict the twice-impeached ex-president what do you make of today's breaking news? >> she is very publicly saying don't tell me that i didn't tell you that this is coming because she wants the world to know that i'm concerned about security and you guys need to get ready you pointed out something very significant. for those sitting there saying well, maybe this is not that big a deal, nothing happened in manhattan when the d.a. indicted trump and he showed up it was kind of crickets in terms of protests and security issues but let's understand, and you referenced this, this is different. you know, the manhattan case is about hush money to keep an affair quiet this goes to the heart, fulton county's case goes to the heart of the big lie and if the past is the best predictor of future conduct then we need only look to january 6th and what the big lie was able to incite and drive

people toward, which is namely violence and mass turnout. so this case which promises perhaps to involve a cast of characters from around trump and also trump, i'll note when lawyers draft letters and release statements every word counts and of course we see that indictments is is plural here, it's not singular. and the security concern likely would not be there if it didn't involve the former president so fani willis is right to tell the folks in georgia to get ready. now, with regard to law enforcement i was assigned, my first office in the fbi was atlanta, georgia and yes, there's a robust partnership there with the community, fulton county as well as the georgia state patrol as well as the city of atlanta. and yes, they've hosted an olympics which by the way memorably did not go well. but they're not, they're not as rehearsed and exercised and partnered as new york city and that law enforcement community is >> you know, katie, you and your

colleagues have an incredible body of reporting -- i picture in my head jack smith as like a whirling dervish, there's steam coming out there's so much activity, and he doesn't seem to be pulling any punches that said, the justice department since long before his arrival has had access to all of the same witnesses and the crime of overthrowing the election doesn't work in one state. trump lost too many votes. he lost too many states. i wonder if you have any sense whether her moves, her public moves, are watched, monitored, whether there's any sense that jack smith wants to go first, second what do you make of how closely they're watching fani willis inside doj >> they're watching dani willis extremely closely for a couple of reasons one is the pragmatic reason of public safety and the letter she went to law enforcement today, local law enforcement will partner with federal law enforcement. i want to answer your question

but i'd also like to pause just to say that what is being overlooked often, and we don't talk about it much, is that the justice department's strategy after january 6th of arresting and tracking down hundreds of people over years in order to put them in jail for raiding the capitol, for attacking the capitol, is not lost on people who might be inclined to do something in georgia and impair public safety and put people at risk in georgia too. so i think there is something about that justice department strategy that we need to pay close attention to because we see it all the time. even after trump was indicted in new york these chat rooms of his supporters were really wondering whether or not it was the best thing to do to go and protest and attack in support of him, knowing that the fbi will then spend years tracking them down and not spare any expense to doing so, knowing this is something that could put them in jail so i think that is a message -- i'm not saying nothing will happen i'm just saying people are cognizant and you see people saying this is a false flag operation, should we actually go

protest. that is something that has had some impact on trump supporters, especially those that would be inclined to riot now, to your question of whether or not jack smith is paying attention to this beyond the justice department writ large, beyond the justice department understanding the partnership on safety issues, yes, of course he is i think at this point for his special counsel's investigation it's not really a matter of going first or second or third, it's a matter of when you go out making sure that you're going to win. so he is wrapping up some final witness interviews he's doing interviews to see whether or not to put them in front of the grand jury. and then he and his team are going to get together for a couple of weeks really battling it out to see if they have a case that will stand up before a jury and that they can secure a guilty >> frank, katie as always makes a brilliant point. have you monitored those sort of far right chat rooms do me say hey, man, don't do it, he was lying to us about those pardons and marjorie taylor

greene and matt gaetz have done jack squat to get us hot meals in jail. is that something that people who watch the far right chatter have noticed >> so katie's right on point with regard to the chatter in relationship to 1,000 people being arrested so far for january 6th and that is it's had a chilling effect on the discussion but the discussion within these extremist chat rooms doesn't say hey, we don't believe it or he lied to us but rather it's far more personal as katie said. it's hey, i don't feel like getting arrested today is what i'm seeing and so they may still buy into this and this really generally has resulted in proud boys and other groups saying hey, we're going local, we're going to protest at school board meetings and we're going to get our people onto school boards and just go local. that's based on fear so fs good on the doj for having that kind of chilling effect but georgia itself really contains -- first of all, it's the largest state geographically

east of the mississippi river. it's populated -- there's a lot of maga in georgia that can turn out and cause a lot of trouble for law enforcement. what we all need to key off of is trump himself are we going to see him call for mass protests or not if he does then stand aside, security issues are going to be paramount. >> greg, what is -- georgia's so complicated. you've helped us understand it it has a republican governor and a republican secretary of state who were trump supporters but broke with him over the election lies i mean, raffensperger is the villain in trump's telling in his efforts to steal the election there kemp as well what culpability -- or what responsibility do they feel in terms of helping fani willis secure the courthouse in the juror? >> both secretary of state brad ravenouser and governor brian kemp testified behind closed doors at the grand jury hearing. they both will say public

security is paramount. they're also both of the most senior republicans not just in the state but probably in the nation who are advocating to move on from donald trump in his hateful rhetoric governor kemp just a couple days ago made that case to republican national committee senior leaders and donors, that the party needs to move on from donald trump so i don't think you could -- you won't be able to say that they're beholden to donald trump whatsoever but they're also going to have to put public safety and other issues as some of their paramount concerns just in general you also have the fact that fani willis from the -- not just this letter but from filings last week, her investigation is still very much ongoing. that's what we can glean from these documents. she was investigating, she was grilling fake electors as recently as this month there are still a lot of loose ends she might have to tie up. >> greg blue skooen vstein, katie benner, frank figliuzzi. that was the zag

thank you for having me zag today. when we return, after losing vote after vote after vote on abortion rights, the republican party has come up with a new strategy don't let the american people vote at all. that story after a quick break so it's decided, we'll park even deeper into parking spaces so people think they're open. surprise. [ laughs ] [ horn honks, muffled talking ] -can't hear you, jerry. -sorry. uh, yeah, can we get a system where when someone's bike is in the shop, then we could borrow someone else's?

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starting at roe, they will not stop at roe, they will not stop just at women's rights i believe that what we are seeing is a concerted rollback of civil liberties in general. our right to privacy, our right to bodily autonomy, our right to marry whomever we wish to marry. all of this is at risk i do not think they will stop. >> harrowing warning there from democratic congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez about just how far republican elected officials will go to control women. even if it means the undoing of our democracy. after supporters of abortion rights won big in six states last year including deep red rew trying to rig the system "the new york times" has some explosive new reporting that underscores that republican playbook when they can't win at the game, they change the rules. the "times" writes this.

quote, with abortion rights groups pushing for similar citizen-led ballot initiatives in at least six other states, republican-controlled legislatures and anti-abortion groups are trying to stay one step ahead for making it harder to pass the measures or to get them on the ballot at all. in ohio republicans in the state legislature are advancing a ballot amendment of their own that would raise the percentage of votes required to pass future such measures to 60% super majority and in case there's any doubt about the motivation behind these maneuvers the "times" adds this quote, the house sponsor of the ballot amendment for the 60% threshold argued in a letter to colleagues that without it, quote, all the work accomplished by multiple republican majorities will be undone and we will return to the 19,000 babies being aborted each and every year joining us now, professor of law at the university of california irvine michelle gwynn. she has a background in preproductive rights

maya wily now back former assistant u.s. attorney now with the leadership council on civil and human rights michelle, i start with you and i keep thinking of that you can feel some of the people some of the time you can't fool all of the people all of the time. men, women, democrats, republicans, people in the north, people in the south, people in the east, people in the west do not want what republicans are selling. it's the extremism, stupid and the people in this country do not want it >> well, that's right. and that's what we saw last year in november where many people were surprised because pollsters said there would be a red tsunami and it was not that at all. and what we saw was that reproductive freedom really matters to people and all of the ballot initiatives that were about protecting reproductive freedoms prevailed, whether that was keeping harmful restrictions out of law in the state of

kentucky or advancing measures that protected reproductive freedom in michigan, for example, in kentucky, in vermont. we had seen that in kansas leading up and to your point, now what we see are efforts to roll all of that back by making it much more difficult for people to use the democratic process this is truly anti-democratic, and it is a fraud that is being perpetrated on american democracy. >> women are suffering and i think the thing that republican extremists on abortion who advocate the state bans that eliminate exceptions for life of the mother, what they miss is that could be anyone's mother or daughter. or sister. or aunt. >> that's absolutely right >> right they counted on people not knowing anyone with a uterus i mean, just talk about how this went so far off the rails for them, michelle >> well, it is so far off the rails. and i really appreciate you centering that because this is a

matter about health and safety already as the supreme court conceded in a case called whole women's health v. hellerstead in 2016, that the data shows us that a woman is 14 times more likely to die by carrying a pregnancy to term than by having an abortion. we know this the supreme court recognized that in that decision. we know through data that's posted online by the c.i.a., the central intelligence agency, that we rank about 55th in the world in terms of maternal mortality. we know that in the state of mississippi if you're a black woman you're 118 times more likely to die by carrying a pregnancy to term than by having an abortion and as the mississippi department of health shows if you're a black woman you account for 80% of cardiac deaths during pregnancy even though black women don't make up 80% of the female population in that state so we know that this is a deadly proposition across the country

we know that the u.s. is the most dangerous place in all of the industrialized world to be pregnant and we also know that it doesn't get better when these happen to be children. so when we see lawmakers imposing these restrictions making no exceptions for cases of rape or incest, that they are committing children essentially to a potential death sentence. it's not as if children do better being pregnant at 9 and 10 and 11 years old, and we see in the state of ohio, one of the states trying to make it more difficult in order to be able to pass a ballot initiative, that's the state where a 10-year-old girl had to escape to get to indiana in order to terminate a pregnancy after serial rapes >> maya, it is also i think for the american people a story about the extremism of the united states supreme court. roe and casey were decided by justices appointed by democrats and republicans.

what the public seems tore intuited from dobbs is that the justices are either politically indebted or ideologically extreme. and again, they don't speak, so we don't know what the truth is. but this is about not just a republican party that created this current constitution of the supreme court but a supreme court that is now tied politically to the fate of the republican party >> well, i think that's absolutely right and just what we have to remember is that this is a court that was gerrymandered in the same way that we're seeing efforts at gerrymandering to make it harder for particular voices, particularly people of color, to have a voice and who leads us to make the kinds of decisions that are reproductive health but this is exactly the point about what we're seeing on the court, is an ideology back -- it used to be that if you were too far outside of the mainstream you couldn't be confirmed to be

a u.s. supreme court justice what we have seen in the case of donald trump, he ran on a platform explicitly stating that he would appoint judges and justices that would overturn roe. and that is a promise he kept. and despite the fact that we had a process, we had a process where president obama was denied his constitutional right to have a full hearing for his nominee a year out before his election, re-election bid, at the end of his second term, i'm sorry, but in this case we saw the exact opposite rules apply when it came to donald trump, who could get amy coney barrett across the finish line in a matter of months before the end of his term and these are the kinds of decisions that made it very clear to the american public that not only was ther ideology, on viewpoint, rather than protecting precedent and

rights in terms of how justices were selected in the previous administration, but also we were going to see a rigging of the rules. now we're watching a court that has some real ethics issues arising publicly related to some of the most ideology judges on the bench. this is unfortunately an undermining of a democratic institution where it shouldn't be about ideology, it should be about rules of law, the constitution and precedent it's the first time in the history of our country where the supreme court took a fundamental right away from us they're also doing it with voting rights. they're going to continue to derive division i'm afraid to say if the ideology keeps playing out. >> i'm sure you share this feeling. i cover the politics of abortion reluctantly. it is a relief that it's such a loser for the republicans, but the truth is every day in america, there's a doctor who doesn't know what she can use to treat her patient.

there's a patient who doesn't know if she can go to the doctor there's a jien kolgynecologist plans for their kids in case they're arrested the truth is there's been so much harm in doctors and gotten in the way of that relationship. >> oh, completely. this is why it's so incredible it's the opposite of the ideology of conservativism, which says we don't want the government getting involved in our private affairs and certainly getting between a woman or a child and their doctor is exactly that so this is something that does cross party lines. it's something that's offensive. but it's also important to remember, they're going further than that. they're attempting to criminalize women and health care providers for trying to provide necessary health care. >> that's amazing. michelle goodman, maya wildly, thank you so much for mangki

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is that a law gets passed that can actually protect our communities. >> that was ten state representative justin peerson. he was outside the white house today after an oval office meeting between the so-called tennessee three who so per sonified the whole country's enough is enough feeling about mass shootings, particularly when they take place at schools. as you remember, they were initially expelled from their state legislature for acting on conviction and standing with their constituents they joined president biden today. all three tennessee lawmakers will join oufrr iend and colleague joy reid on the readout. don't miss that. we will be right back. that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you innovate and grow.

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