the heart. katy >> thank you the defendant drove the victim to a dark, secluded area according to documents from a text message to the defendant from the defendant's sister, the defendant was upset with bob lee and, quote came down hard on him more details to come that is going to do it for me today "deadline white house" starts a tad bit early, right now ♪ ♪ hi, everyone it's 4:00 in new york. the fox news empire at a crossroads, having paid more

than $725 billion for lawsuits and without its biggest, brightest star, tucker carlson "the new york times" reports that his departure is made more stun big the fact that the network did nothing after carlson pushed the envelope over and over, pedaling inflammatory information. quote, the network stuck by him after carlson claimed that immigration had made america, quote, poor and dirty. he seemed to shrug off a racist conspiracy theory known as the great replacement, along with the fact that when russia invaded ukraine, he seemed to promote russia's point of view

the fallout from carlson's ouster is unclear. quote, mr. carlson's rise prefigured trump's takeover of the republican party his own conversion from bow tied libertarian to popularist remade the party. he prospered with trump's presidency he made frank nativism the primary touch stones of republican politics. if fox and its host prospered because of trump, their efforts to deny the presidential results threw the network into legal

peril. "new york times" reports, quote, tucker carlson is facing a lawsuit from his former head of booking, abby grossberg who said she was subjected to a hostile work environment she was fired by fox news after she filed two lawsuits against the company in march she joined carlson's team in 2022 ms. grossberg said in the lawsuit naming mr. carlson that male producer regularly used vulgarities to describe women and frequently made anti-semitic jokes. fox news says, quote, we'll continue to vigorously defend fox against ms. grossberg's legal claims which are riddled with false allegations that's where we begin. joining us is former fox news

producer abby grossberg. she's suing tucker carlson and other fox executives for promoting a hostile and discriminatory work environment while workin tucker carlson's show how you doing? >> good. >> yeah? >> it's strange. it's been a really strange, crazy ride yesterday felt like a "twilight zone" episode. >> why >> i heard the news. i was starting to get texts from friends. i thought maybe it was the "60 minutes" they were talking about it they said, no, he's fired. it was -- are you sure obviously, you know, i'm at the center of a lot of this and it felt surreal and there were a lot of mixed emotions that went through my head. there were feelings, like, yes and then also the reality that you don't want anything bad to

happen to anybody, but at the same time tucker and his executive producer justin wells, who was also fired, were responsible for breaking me and making my life a living hell there is a feeling of justice, but it's only partial. >> why did you go work for him >> i was working with maria at the time i knew as a female i would never get the executive producer title there. the opportunity came up to go to tucker it was a promotion i would be overseeing a team i would also be overseeing three different platforms and i liked the staff honestly when i interviewed with them. i was hoping it would be more professional what he was portraying on air was just a show and it wasn't the case. >> when do you realize that? >> immediately i show up first day of work and i know this is a popular one

there are literally pictures this big of nancy pelosi in a bathing suit in europe plastered all over there was one on my computer screen for the temporary computer i had to use. i had to take it down just to work within a few days i was called into justin wells' office with another senior producer and asked if maria was having an affair with kevin mccarthy it was just -- i was shocked i couldn't even believe it i was floored. >> let's go through some of what you all le you you allege in your lawsuit. >> i'm tough, but it's hard to take day in and day out which is a big part of why i'm speaking out now. it's not okay and the impact of

bullying when it's done day after day after day. quickly i spoke out. for example, early on they had andrew tate on the show. i raised my hand and said we have to be mindful this is two white males together i have used the example of gayle king and r. kelly saying she could go in a different direction than i felt tucker could. they weren't happy about that. they wanted it to be a bro fest. they liked his messaging whenever i said something like that, it put a target on my back and i was shut out of meetings i was mocked i was eventually demoted that's how it played out for me. it got worse and worse and worse every time i spoke out >> what was your experience of anti-semitism? >> it's interesting because i've never experienced it in my life

until now. it was nothing i ever thought of and it started around the holiday period i had a colleague who was israeli and they do this thing with hr where you become this global ambassador for fox for the show and you get $10,000 to represent the program as a diversity ambassador and the whole staff was white. they recommended that he be that person because israelis and jews are minorities they suggested it in a meeting. they brought it to him i think he was shocked they said he could use that money to buy pizza for the staff for a year i know hr claims they did an investigation. they said some of these things were said, but the feelings in the office were different. >> what is it about the culture

at tucker? as someone who covers him and covers him as a force that threatened democracy until friday night, it falls in this category of shocking, not surprising what was for you as someone inside fox shocking about the culture at tucker coming from maria's show >> it was very out in the open what you see ends up on air. people are believers who are there. i was really -- i found it difficult to cover the stories they wanted me to cover. i wasn't expecting it. maybe i should have. that's what some people say. right toward the end of my time when the january 6th tapes were coming out, tucker was very set on finding an fbi person who was implanted in the crowd and spinning this conspiracy that they were ultimately the ones responsible for the capital attack, not fox news as they're about to go into the dominion

trial. it was really the fbi that set up this thing, not fox telling the american people that the election was rigged and the voting machines did it when i went back to them and said, look, there's no conspiracy theory here i called the attorney who is representing one of the proud boys he told me on two occasions, there's no conspiracy. get away from this stuff this is dangerous. tell tucker to stop. i will come on your show, but i'll walk off if he asks me this the result was find somebody else tucker is intent on this that wore on my mental health. by that time i had begun to connect the dots that the programming we were putting on the air every night was not just generating business, but also generating hatred in the audience after january 6th i had this wakeup moment that this is hurting people people are getting angry

people are acting out on that anger. this is not okay i don't want to be part of that. >> i guess some people who have kept an eye on what he's done would say that you might have known that before. you go to work with tucker in 2022 >> yes. >> what is it about -- do you feel like -- i want to ask you about the tapes. did he ask you guys to look through the tapes looking for mr. x? is that what you're suggesting or other fbi informants? >> i was not part of the team that looked at the tapes i had been on emergency medical leave due to the abuse that took place on that show when i came back, they knew i had legal representation and were not including me in the viewing of the tapes they were having me look for a lawyer of a proud boy that was willing to say there were fbi informants infiltrating the proud boys. >> and none of them were >> not that i could find.

>> i want to go back to what causes some of your stress, i think. it's around your dominion deposition can you take us through there's events >> following the 2020 election people started reaching out for informal meetings about our work throw. that went on for about a year. in early 2022 we had a meeting where they said we want both of your phones and take an image of them they have made me hold it up show it was forever i was saving my texts they said we only need them from october through march. i said i have personal stuff they said we don't want any of that i was sick the day they took the phones i said to them at that point -- i had this old company phone got rid of it in april of 2021

do you want that no keep it for safe keeping i turned over my devices in march. in june i had a second meeting where i was summoned to fox. they scrolled through my phone and asked if i had a signal app which i deleted because maria and i used it for about a week didn't take. i got rid of it. i keep things very organized i said this seems serious. where is this going? they said you might be deposed, but it's no big deal july i find out i'm going to be deposed. scared to death. walk in there august, i believe it was august 10th for my first session with the fox attorneys first thing i say -- maria has told me that she's hired her own representation who has copies of all our text messages and emails i say out of gate, maria has her

own attorney do i need one? no, no, no they complicate things steve deucy has one. they just ask questions to make money. it complicates the process can i take notes no i'm given this -- no need. no big deal. they give me the speech about how it's a slam dunk first amendment case the whole thing is so stupid am i in trouble? no i get this big binder. it looks quite serious to me we start going through it. they start coaching me when i'm in there, i decide it's an opportunity to talk about some of the problems i've been having let me get it on the record with the fox attorneys. i think it's important i didn't want to go to hr.

i didn't trust them. this is a way of me setting a record with fox. i start telling these things very early on. it seemed like they had a plan and i screwed it up. >> what was their plan >> they were expecting me to, i think, be -- they flat out said we expected you to be best friends with maria we were very close by that point, we were disagreeing on the integrity of the election and what had taken place in 2022 and some other theories she had and there was definitely tension. >> there are records of that. >> there are records of all that i had been asked to spy on her by the fox bosses and report back on what she was doing which caused a lot of stress that was part of the reason i went to tucker as well i just physically and emotionally couldn't take it when i listen to some of those tapes that i have, i hear the stress in my voice and how depleted i was. >> you spied on maria for your

fox bosses >> yes i didn't spy i would tell them what she was doing. if there were things that concerned me -- spy was the wrong word in the past we had a good relationship and we could work it out i reported those things. i became very paranoid about my job. i had been shaken down by multiple executives in the company. that was part of the reason i went to tucker as well. >> bigger star, safer harbor at the mothership >> i wouldn't say bigger star. i felt like they would protect me i felt like i wasn't protected where i was, also mindful of the fact she was named in the dominion suit. that was something on my mind too. if i can get away before that happens, i'll be protected. >> you come to think that fox wants to scapegoat you and maria for dominion

how did you come to believe that >> that was a gradual process. very early we're jumping timelines. in november of 2021, about eight or nine months before this happened, i had a meeting with an executive who said to me you're responsible for this whole thing, for us being sued i said, what do you mean he said, you didn't put up a fullscreen of dominion i said i did maria didn't choose to read it they said you didn't control her. that stuck in my mind. maria knew they were out to get her. they had been playing games for years. she had a right to be paranoid about what they were doing this was all in the background after i had two days of prep, they were expecting to put us together in this grouping and then realized that i -- for

example, if they asked was she always trustworthy, i was coached to say i believe she believes she's telling the truth so i wouldn't be perjuring myself it would be more like an indirect truth or skating the issue. i saw how they were coaching me. my deposition was canceled. >> why >> they didn't tell me why they said at 9:20 at night we'll get back to you. i'm thinking this is strange they call me a week later. three are sitting in a board room it was fox counsel and two from the outside counsel. they made me believe i had done something very wrong i was hiding something on my phone. they made it sound criminal. i gave them -- i literally said to them take everything from me. take whatever you want we're going through -- i use google docs.

we want that take it. i use yahoo mail take it. do you use slack yes. instagram? yes. take it. i said i have this app called signal i specifically remember it because they said what's that? i said it's a transcription app. i use it to transcribe preinterviews and pretapes. >> what is it called >> otter, the otter app. i wanted to make sure they had everything they were like, eh i remember thinking in my head, okay, you don't want that? weird. that's why i remember i specifically said it because i had that mental inner dialogue they said they would take my phone the next day and take images of everything i said you're welcome to everything they said if we find a there there, you mightneed your own attorney i said i can't afford my own

attorney they said, better hope you're not in trouble i gave my phones the next day. again, they spent several hours with each phone. i said to one of the attorneys there, can i get an image of my phone? i have personal stuff on there i want an image of it. maria got it they said, no. i went along with it >> what do you think they were doing? did you feel like they were trying to frame you? did you feel like they were -- what did you think they were doing? >> at that point i wasn't sure something didn't feel right. >> what did you do >> i went along with it. i was starting a new job leslie, one of the attorneys was leslie west, made it clear to me you're starting this new job you're going on to greener pastures that was something that was pressed in when i was called back in,

september 13th, we had another round of prep. i heard since then it's very unusual to spend all this time prepping for deposition and just drilling over and over and over again. the first question the next day when i was deposed was about why my first deposition was canceled i said -- they thought it was me >> dominion asked you? >> yes they asked why i couldn't show up. >> what did you say? >> i said it wasn't me i said, it was canceled. they grilled me on why they said, you were ordered to be here. the court ordered you to be here >> do you know why fox canceled your first deposition? >> they told dominion i canceled it. >> a lot of what is in the complaint is about the refusal to give you a copy of your deposition and give you an opportunity to fill in the blanks it's got a formal legal term

will you talk about that, that you didn't get a copy of the deposition you give? why do you think that was? >> i think it was part of their plan to scapegoat us by law in delaware i was entitled to look at it, and also sign off on it there's an eratta sheet. my boss justin wells gave his deposition a week after mine three weeks after that he sent a text message that he's printing off his deposition i'm saying, where's mine eventually i start asking for it at first the outside counsel is saying, we'll get it to you. don't worry. i'm not getting anywhere during this period ultimately there was more harassment that led to me hiring my own attorneys who behind the scenes also had me continue pushing for

it they're telling me it's strange i don't have it. i should have it >> it makes it clear why you wanted it and how you changed it to make it more accurate this is from your eratta sheet do you trust the producers at fox? yes. you get this this is what you corrected it to no, i don't trust all the producers at fox if asked to elaborate they're activists not journalists and impose their political agendas on the programming i also caught someone i work with pla gorizing i felt i had to do everything possible to avoid becoming a star witness for dominion or

else i would be jeopardizing my career at fox news and would be subjected to worse terms and conditions of employment than offered to male employees as i understood it. this is just one answer. i have your whole corrected deposition here. if you could characterize for our audience how far the coerced version of responses in your depo are from the truth in your corrected and amended version? >> there were specific topics that i was coached on and they quite literally said to me in that room you don't want to be the star witness looking back on it there were many more pieces that came together before i understood what was happening, which included many of the text messages of what my bosses were saying at the time, being released by dominion they coached me specifically not to say anything negative about my supervisors who were males

and my colleagues and to talk around it. if i had a text message where my boss said when i had the first interview with president trump after he won the -- after he lost the 2020 election and biden won, that it was holiday filler he said. i had some words -- choice words i shared with maria about him. they said, you don't want to do that say you were frustrated in the moment we all get frustrated sometimes. i literally said that. when i read my deposition, i said yeah, that is what i was coached to say never say i was overworked never say i was a staff of one never talk about ratings those were three of the big ones >> which is ironic because the discovery process yields so many examples of tucker carlson talking about all three, ratings

and all sorts of other revealing things i want to ask about whether you believe that your lawsuit, your two lawsuits, are behind tucker's firing yesterday? >> i think it has something to do with it i don't know for sure. it's not a fact. i would like to think, if anything, it shows when you have the truth on your side and you stand up for yourself, people will listen. for now that's what i'm taking from it. >> do you believe anything you said about your experience on the show in your deposition, the fact that you would have been dominion's star witness, do you think that had anything to do with fox's decision to fire tucker carlson >> i think some of that -- we heard had to do with the settlement that was made last week he did come up in my deposition.

i was asked very pointedly about texts he sent long before i ever applied to be on the show where he had some choice words about sidneypowell and called her th "c" word multiple times. they had me read it out loud, which the attorneys coached me they'll have you do stuff like that to make you uncomfortable just read it i did. they asked if it made me uncomfortable, in that moment thought process was you're going to work with this man. it was easy tore for me to say no they said, what if he uses it when you're there? i said, i'm not there yet. that really bothered me. that was probably the first thing i wanted to change i felt very strongly about changing that. >> i want to go through some of

that if that's okay. i have to sneak in a break when we met, you told me some of the human toll that all this took i want to see if we can get you to talk about that at the end of the day, it's likely that your politics are different from mine and many of our viewers, but you're a human being who risked your entire career and any future at fox news to tell the truth about it. that makes you an extraordinary person in this moment of history. we have to sneak in a quick break. can i ask you about that on the other side >> yes. >> don't go anywhere we'll be right back. so people think they're open. surprise. [ laughs ] [ horn honks, muffled talking ] -can't hear you, jerry. -sorry. uh, yeah, can we get a system where when someone's bike is in the shop, then we could borrow someone else's? -no! -no! or you can get a quote with america's number-one motorcycle insurer and maybe save some money while you're at it. all in favor of that. [ horn honking ] there's a lot of buttons and knobs in here.

we are back with former fox news producer abby grossberg she's suing tucker carlson and other fox executives for providing a hostile work environment. it was reported today your lawyers still have plans to depose tucker carlson as part of that lawsuit let me share some of the evidence that might come up if that moves forward this is what you were talking about, the language. you said in describing how he described sidney powell. you said, quote, it's a casual text message this is often how people talk. it doesn't offend me ms. grossberg, you understand mr. tucker used truly awful language quote, it did offend me. i just started working there and didn't want to antagonize the

host i was working for he was very powerful at a network i hoped to grow my career based on what i understood and took away from the deposition, preparation sessions i had with fox's legal team which were coercive and intimidating, i felt i had to do everything possible to avoid becoming the star witness for dominion. i was fearful to say anything that would seem disloyal to tucker carlson or else i would be seriously jeopardizing my career at fox news and would be subjected to worse terms and conditions of employment let me show the reward you get for giving the original answers. this is from your complaint. the day after her deposition on december 14th, alex mccaskill asked ms. grossberg about what she covered in her testimony

she said mr. carlson's name came up, but she protected him. the attorney said they were happy the answers she had given and said they should celebrate with lunch later that day an email was sent to the staff to celebrate abby day. what this normal >> i only know what happened to me i told people tucker had come up i was asked if he did. i said i protected him and they rewarded the staff with lunch. >> were you the only person who had an abby day or were there others who reported the same kind of performance, if you will, in their depos >> i was one of three people that i'm aware of that were deposed on the staff and i was the only one that had abby day. >> when you look at what came

out in the discovery process and you take your slice, as you said, you only know what you experienced, do you believe that -- the judge doesn't believe the discovery process was pure, untainted, uncoerced how much do you think people were hiding? >> i know from my experience that there were multiple recordings on my devices that never turned up. dominion said they didn't have them i gave fox my phones i literally said, take everything. >> the otter app. >> off the otter app it was their responsibility to go through everything. the recordings i found during my own investigation into my own case in january of this year uncovered tapes of rudy giuliani and sidney powell and trump's team i don't know why they didn't find that. i don't know if that was recklessness or it was done

purposefully if it happened with me, it happened with other people too. >> where are those recordings now? did dominion ultimately get them >> i have several recordings i'm still going through that we recovered from all the phones. there are 90 that we have. i don't know what fox turned over i know that based on what i've read that they handed over the sidney and rudy tapes. fox should have everything they really should >> do you -- have you been contacted by smartmatic? >> yes i've been subpoenaed >> are you aware of anything that came up in the discovery process as it pertains to tucker or his producer that was fired yesterday that led to his firing

>> not that i'm aware of. >> let me ask you just again, i think twists of fate lands you at different netnetworks i work across the street from fox news i look outside that building and sometimes wonder how people like tucker and his producers put what they put on the air when it could be so inciteful for violence i wonder what the toll is on human beings can you share what it is like to be part of that, especially when they turned on you >> when i first got to fox, i joined for the opportunity to work with somebody i thought was an icon. maria was the first woman to be on the floor of the new york stock exchange i had the opportunity to get a promotion and travel across the country with her i was at the white house i was at the super bowl.

i was at the southern border it was an amazing opportunity, even if sometimes, i think, being in that bubble and being so close you do start to kind of get seduced by some of the political ideas. even when i disagreed with her, i think she believed in what she was doing. when i got to tucker, it was different. as the texts came out revealed my suspicions, he was looking for ratings bait purely and was looking for power. it was a combination of ratings and power and manipulating the audience and manipulating the political system there was an aspect of i can pick who the house speaker is. i can pick who the president of the united states is or who the republican candidate is going to be i thought that was really dangerous and didn't want that kind of power. i didn't want to have senate candidates calling me and being very upset, are you going to

destroy our whole campaign tonight? he could do that he would call and tell them that if you don't participate or come on the show, we'll destroy you i was told to say that to k congressmen sometimes. i didn't how could i? there was also just this sort of moral growth with me where i reached a breaking point because of all those things and didn't want to do it anymore. it felt disgusting i stopped watching news when i came home. i didn't watch anything. i just didn't want to because i was so depressed and disillusioned by the entire media system because of tucker carlson. >> do you watch us now >> i do. >> let me just -- you know, i don't mean to do this in a nitpicky way, when did you believe joe biden won the election >> it's such a hard thing to talk about

looking back and going back to the seduction, i feel stupid i'm embarrassed. i said to my attorneys, if i had one thing to hide, it would be for like eight days after the election i thought there was a chance that was a result of being bubble not just in the bubble that the viewers are in at fox news, i was dealing with the white house every day. it was in that bubble during covid with maria, getting my information from people that were close to trump and running a show by myself if it took a whole staff two days to chase it down, it probably took me eight to get there. as we were speaking to sources, some of whom were very high in the republican party and trump's own team, i started to see it. by the time we had sidney and rudy back on that second week, and the 15th, i knew >> you knew it was what bill barr said it was >> when bill barr said that, he was somebody we interviewed and

i someone i respected greatly and bill barr said it's bs it's bs. >> what did you hear yesterday from fox, anyone that works there, anything from anyone about tucker's firing? >> no. >> nothing >> no. no one is coming near me they could be worried i have tapes. >> abby grossberg, one of the most intriguing plot twists in covering the dominion lawsuit and our coverage of fox news, thank you for your time today and for talking to us. we appreciate it. >> can i say one last thing? >> sure. >> i want an apology from fox. >> dominion didn't get one they paid $800 million to not apologize to dominion. did they apologize to gretchen have you talked to any of the women? >> she reached out i'm very supportive. i'm grateful for that.

her bravery is leading to my bravery. i hope i set a stage for other women. >> speaking out is not an easy thing to do over there i know that much thank you for doing that. fox news said, quote, we'll continue to vigorously defend fox against ms. grossberg's legal claims which are riddled are false allegations. when we come back, the culture abby describes at fox news don't go anywhere. sensodyne s& enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. you're doing business in an app driven, multi-cloud world. that's why you choose vmware. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you keep your cloud options open.

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my head is spinning a bit. to help me with the reaction to abby's revelations in the complaint, i want to bring in some friends joyce vance and "new york times" wr writer jim, this idea she was asked to spy on maria and report back to her bosses who she was completely terrified of, not wanting to disappointment them, wanting to rise through the company, that was is most blunt description of a request inside fox management to spy on another

anchor had you heard stories like that before >> reporter: i have not. i think that the key thing in all this right now is really what she's saying about the culture that she experienced at the network, what's she's bringing forward in her workplace suit i think everything else aside, a lot ofwhat we're talking about was material in terms of the dominion suit. going forward, the sensitivity that i'm picking up on is about workplace culture and something that fox has really talked about addressing over years and years after previous suits involving roger ails, bill o'reilly, that's the most material subject. >> to that point she describes something so chilling about tucker carlson's show, the anti-semitism, racism and the

misogyny is for real the cameras are off and it's what the culture eveals. it's hard to believe this is the network about which the scripted movie "bombshell" and the historic settlements that you've reported on for years have made. the culture seems, based on her allegations, rotten to the core. >> you'll recall, or maybe you won't, rupert murdoch's son who is as much in charge of the network as anyone, prided himself in the role he had previously taken in making sure that roger ails was out based on all the sexual harassment allegations involving roger ails one would suspect that whatever more we may learn or not learn about tucker carlson's ouster, this is in the mix what abby has to say here is

very salient and will continue to be as her lawsuit stays in -- it's moving through the system these are not deadi issues. >> even after 40 minutes it's not clear to her or me what is behind the decision to fire tucker carlson it's apparently not part of the settlement with dominion she has no information to suggest it's part of her lawsuit directly this sort of mystery endures, which if you just -- i'm a student of, for better or worse, of the content in that 8:00 p.m. hour the content didn't repulse them. what did >> it really is just utterly amazing that none of this seemed to be enough to fire carlson or at least correct course with him and then suddenly something happens. i mean, we can only imagine how bad that would have to be.

you know, nicolle, listening to you question abby, i was reminded of witnesses that i had had in criminal cases. she's brought a civil case against fox, but you would talk to witnesses, particularly in large drug trafficking organizations and they would lie to protect the bosses. they would do it for a long time sometimes through three or four interviews even in front of the grand jury. then something would happen that would force them to realize it was in their best interests to tell the truth they would sit down and finally tell you what actually happened and it would be corroborated by documentary evidence maybe by phone records or other do documents as in this case recordings that she has using the otter app, it's a remarkable moment to see this happening and see her sounding like so much who is involved in a criminal enterprise, who was encouraged, who was rewarded, who was at

least in her own mind threatened if she told the truth and suddenly tells it. the truth is stunning. >> joyce, this is the first time i've heard it was left to abby grossberg to tell dominion canceled the first deposition. do you know why it was canceled? no, i don't. she goes and corrects, from her errata sheet, i don't know the very exact reason, but i have good reason to believe because it was fox wanted to coach me into making statements that would make me look bad and incompetent, while distancing the parent company from at least some of the otherwise substantial reliability award because fox is trying to explain me as inexplicably incompetent she figures out that she's being set up or framed to take the fall the judge in the dominion case

has his own serious questions about an incomplete -- i think that might be a generous word, but let's be generous to fox for a minute, an incomplete discovery process. is there any lesson or strategy that smartmatic can take from this and the discovery process itself >> smartmatic can take full advantage, not just of the evidence that gets unveiled in this process but also what it says about fox and how fox was operating with these deliberate intent to conceal, something that was, let's just say wrong, in the civil sense was going on. it's an interesting position that abby was in when you take an oath to be truthful, there's no exception for trying to save

your career. that's the situation fox put her in in this situation. >> jim, i'll give you the last word on whether this new looming smartmatic case, with another discovery with the same witnesses, another discovery process involving tucker carlson. do you have any indication that any of that played into his ouster >> i'm gathering that, again, no matter what more we learn, all of this is in the mix. of course it's in the mix. they cannot go through this process again. here is smartmatic, that case has time left before it would ever see court they definitely don't want to go through it again and want to clear themselves of another process like the one they just went through. >> thank you so much for being part of our coverage coming up from us, just blocks from where donald trump was arraigned this month, he's the star of another case we'll tell you about it next hum... what's the ocean like? ♪

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for folks keeping track at home, there's another unprecedent moment today of legal peril for the disgraced indicted ex-president as he sets off to run for president again, this time a civil trial under way in manhattan for allegations of rape and defamation writer e. jean carroll is seeking damages for rape she says happened in a dressing room in the mid 1990s as well as public comments trump made about her and her accusations. he called them a hoax. trump denies the allegations and says he won't appear in court due to, quote, logistical burdens. the trial began this afternoon after he lost battles over testimony and evidence we can expect to come up in court, including the infamous "access hollywood" tape about him grabbing how he could grab women in the bleep the judge ruled it could be used of past attempts to grope women

without their consent. up next, another dubious ethical question involving the united states supreme court. this time it wasn't about clarence thomas. we'll tell you about it after a quick break. don't go anywhere. d services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you keep your cloud options open. trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control. now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of

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i'm on a roll-ay. how about you? i'm just visiting. u.s. bank. ranked #1 in customer satisfaction with retail banking in california by j.d. power. my question is do you think there's a public interest in disclosure of political funds in a democracy? that's i don't think a prejudgment. that's just a values proposition and one of the considerations that you ought to be able to answer without much hesitation. >> senator, um, what i'm

prepared to say is i recognize that as a matter of first amendment interests the supreme court has validated the proposition that disclosure serves important functions in a democracy. at the same time the supreme court has also acknowledged that those disclosure functions can sometimes themselves have unintended consequences. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. move over, clarence, we've got another supreme court justice not disclosing real estate sales. that would be justiceneil gorsuch who you just saw there who sold a 40-acre property in colorado to the head of a law firm nine days after he was confirmed by the senate to the u.s. supreme court the buyer is brian duffy, the chief executive of greenberg tore rig, one of the country's biggest law firms with a robust practice in front of the court

gorsuch whoheld a 20% stake reported making between $250,000 and $500,000 in this real estate transaction from the sale in his disclosure forms politico also found that gorsuch did not disclose the identity of the purchaser. he left that box blank since then the law firm has been involved in at least 22 cases before or presented to the court. that's according to a review done by politico that includes cases in which greenberg either filed amicus briefs or represented parties. in the 12 cases where gorsuch's opinion is recorded, he sided with greenberg eight times and against them four times. this revelation about gorsuch comes of the heels of the stunning reporting of justice thomas' close relationship with bill nair and mega donor harland crow who took him on luxury vacations and purchased justice

thomas' mother's house in 2014 unlike thomas who only publicry reported two gifts since 2004, gorsuch did disclose gifts and where they came from "the washington post" reported that over the last five years, quote, justice gorsuch reported receiving a $799 pair of cowboy boots from a non-profit affiliated with the texas supreme court in 2021, a $500 fishing rod from someone named bob todd in 2019 and a $1,000 watercolor painting from another federal judge in 2018. all that making the blank box on his disclosure form identifying the buyer of his colorado property stand out for its opaqueness duffy said he's never met or spoke with justice gorsuch while the justice did not respond to politico's questions, the reporting points out this, quote, such a sale would raise ethical problems for officials

serving in many other branches of government. it has largely left justices to make their own decisions about when and how to report outside gifts and income more and new ethical questions about another justice on the supreme court is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends dahlia ligt wick is legal correspondent for slate, host of the am muss podcast. also joining us brian fallen, co-founder and executive director of demand justice, a progressive judicial advocacy group. harry lippman is former deputy assistant attorney general and former republican congressman and msnbc contributor david jolly joins us harry litppman, i think we gave you a promotion. i may have promoted you there. >> demoted.

>> i'll get it right i'm sorry that was botched why is this so hard? i don't care about gorsuch or thomas this is the roberts court. why is this so hard for john roberts? >> roberts doesn't have a lot of authority even though he's the chief justice. the real question is why is it so hard for gorsuch and thomas these latest revelations, it's another self-inflicted wound the big problem is the basic american principle, you're not supposed to a judge in your own cause, and it's left to them that blank box really does stand out, and the specific incident with harlan crow, maybe thomas wouldn't have known it the big problem is they're deciding for themselves and really leading again and again with their children. it's not clear if roberts, if he

tries to martshal support, it almost has to be forward looking, the remedy. you have new kind of momentum in a motion to potentially expand the court to 13 members. it's part of a really unnecessary and unfortunate set of problems for the court. david jolly, i take harry's point about the lack of tools at john roberts' disposal, but it's a leadership question. to the public, you don't necessarily know how incomplete or ineffective the tools are, but you know that chief should connote something. what do you think explains why he's not even trying >> well, i think the full pressure -- public pressure may not be there yet, nicolle. i kind of back into it this way, justice roberts is the custodian, if you will, of the

court, like others who preceded him, want to stay out of politics they don't want the supreme court to be part of politics often if supreme court politics are part of our national debate around elections, it's over who is the nominee, who gets to appoint, who gets to control which party has control of the white house of the senate. i think where the supreme court might get dragged into politics and give roberts some reason to say we've got to fix this, is you now have an opening frankly for congressional democrats to talk about ethics on the court and whether or not there should be some effort at a legislative remedy the juris prudence here is a little tricky. we do recognize the separation of powers. but it is true that congress does have some legislative oversight around the disclosure proceedings, the disclosure requirements, and in the past, when they have tried to impose, for instance, financial disclosures, you have seen the court accept those new burdens, though now not comply with them. in the public affairs space, the public arena, the space that

roberts does not want to find himself in, democrats might have gotten a bit of a political issue in the '24 cycle to say, look, we can talk about four-packing our expansion later, but what we need to talk about is whether democrats and republicans alike want to see greater ethics compliance. now john roberts and the supreme court has a political issue to deal with which they don't want to be a part of at all. >> brian fallon, it's a ridiculous proposition that they're not already part of the political conversation they make themselves more political by refusing to recognize it they actually even recognize it. they complain about it so loudly and so self-pityingly, in such a matter that would appear they're so self-absorbed, they don't want to be part of the solution. the train has left the station they fill out the ethics boards like a sushi menu, i'll have one

of these and one of these. it's a joke. >> absolutely. to your point about why doesn't john roberts do something about this, dahlia and others have reported on this, joan biskupic has reported on this th it's one of the leading theories behind the leak in the dobbs case people like alito were worried john roberts would go around and try to soften the opinion and peel off other justices like kavanaugh. on the substance and the juris prudence, there's a lot of distrust i think that somewhat makes roberts unable to sort of persuade them or have any moral suasion abilities when it comes to these ethics matters. i agree with david that leaves it in the hands of congressional democrats. even before this latest gorsuch revelation came out, my group commissioned a poll with hart research that came out last week that showed that 70% of the voters believe that congress should investigate ethics scandals resolving around

supreme court justices that was even before this gorsuch thing. it was before the latest harlan crow/clarence thomas story they would have the wind at their backs in pursuing this last week sheldon whitehouse did an event run by a privilege organization run by my friend adam green he chairs the subcommittee on the courts he says regardless of what happens with this full committee hearing that dick durbin is going to run, he's going to try to extend an offer to john roberts to come testify. he says he'll hold a series of hearings to look into these matters. i think sheldon whitehouse recognizes public support for the investigation. hopefully something will come of that in the weeks to come. >> okay, because brian raised it, i'll play more of whitehouse asking questions of gorsuch for

you, dahlia. >> i'm not with all respect, senator, going to get involved in politics. if this body wishes to pass legislation, that's a political question for this body there's ample room for this body to pass disclosure laws for dark money or anything else it wishes to that can be tested in the courts senator, with all respect, the ball is in your court. >> do you really think that a supreme court that decided citizens united doesn't get involved in politics >> senator, i think every justice on the supreme court of the united states is a remarkable person trying their level best to apply the law faithfully i'm just not -- >> they were involved in politics, they changed the entire political environment, the entire political ecosystem with one decision. you must recognize that.

>> dahlia, senator whitehouse leading a committee on ethics is something i would buy a ticket and popcorn to watch i don't accept that this is unchangeable i think there's a bottom there has to be a bottom in john roberts' mind. i think about 20% of people have high esteem for the court. approval ratings have plunged faster than congress, the media, just about any institution in american civic life. they're leaking more than most campaigns, certainly more than fox news this is a reputational crisis. i imagine the incomplete ethics forms compiled by gorsuch are not the end of the drip, drip, drip, drip, drip on the ethics front. >> this partly goes to harry's point about the extent to which

john roberts does not have formal powers. he can't put clarence thomas in the naughty boy chair. he can't force justice gorsuch to fill out the boxes on his forms. he doesn't have that kind of power. but as we've discussed before, we know what happens when the supreme court justices turned on their colleague abe fortis for what i think is lesser behavior from what we're seeing now we saw the chief justice and other justices get involved in an informal soft campaign to oust abe fortis, and it worked i'm not completely sold on the proposition that the court can't do anything when one of their colleagues delegitimizes the court and won't stop i think the better question is, and the one you're asking, when does the public start to demand it so loudly that the court act? so far we've seen absolutely endless power of the justices

thinking we're going to surf the next one, surf the next one. nothing is going to change people will forget i think what you're hearing from this panel and i'm sensing it, too, is that the public won't tolerate that for a lot longer, whether john roberts wants to use his informal powers or keep signaling he's given up, that's a question i can't answer. >> the meeting has to be a meeting about the legitimacy of the court. it can't be about ginni thomas' coup activities or gorsuch's or thomas' incomplete ethics form or thomas' weird relationship with a billionaire and something called a super yacht, which is bigger than a regular yacht. it has to be a meeting where something more lofty, more weighty is discussed the way i can imagine about someone who cares about john roberts suggesting the meeting go down, 80% of the public wants

gun safety legislation and views the supreme court recent rulings as standing in the way of any of those holding up or surviving review 67% of all americans oppose our decision on dobbs. we've lost the country in terms of the real impact of the policies that are pursued after we rule. do we care what do you think that conversation sounds like, david jolly? >> so this kind of gets really to the heart of the question what would be the incentive for john roberts and the other justices to say, okay, let's begin to address our credibility among the american people. it would not be around the subject matter of their decisions. i think the answer you heard in that tape from gorsuch to whitehouse is pretty much the same opinion of every justice. even if their rulings are out of political favor, i think each one of them would suggest they arrived on them based on whatever convictions and form their judgment however, if none of their decisions are to be credible or believed because they're not seen as a credible institution because of questions around

ethics, that begins to impugn the integrity of the court writ large. others on this panel and supreme court historians know far more than i do, but there has been some precedence for this the idea of financial disclosures, when pushed by congress on the court, the court just accepted those. they didn't want to actually challenge those in court or suggest a separation of powers argument they accepted them i think this is where democrats -- it's an interesting argument to make to the american people as a political question, but you could say we are worried as democrats about the integrity of the court and the justices that sit there and, therefore, here is our reform package with enough scrutiny and enough political pressure, you may see the court say, if we don't reform ourselves, then the integrity of all our future decisions will remain in question it gets you halfway down that road i'm not sure you ever will without the subject matter of their decisions changing based on the composition of the court

itself. >> brian, enter elizabeth warren who tied the court, this version of the court, this makeup of the court and their current -- has been publicly reported -- body of conduct to our democracy. >> i don't want to mess with the supreme court, but the supreme court is messing with our democracy. make no mistake, the supreme court faces a crisis of legitimacy our democracy is based on separation of powers an ethical, just and fair-minded supreme court is part of that. that court has disappeared, captured by a handful of extremists who want to use the court to further their own extremist personal views instead of advancing the law >> i don't have to tell you, you can tell me and teach me how

democrats have the opportunity to use the supreme court as a political issue, the way republicans did for the better part of five decades republican voters vote on the supreme court. you know how the supreme court on the other side of the plurality, of all voters, not just democrats, on abortion, guns, democracy, voting rights who is running the campaign to make sure that a broader coalition than just democrats, democrats, independents, republican women, suburban men and women vote like the future of our democracy depends on it >> well, the event from which that clip you just played comes i think speaks to the fact that there's a shift occurring. to dahlia's point earlier, i think the public is getting fed up this bus tour that started yesterday that elizabeth warren and senator markey were speaking at, is a coalition of more than 30 different groups, many of whom coming to the issue of reforming the supreme court for

the first time one of the leading reproductive rights groups came out two weeks ago and joined the coalition color of change now part of this coalition pushing for supreme court reform in the coming days and weeks, they're going to newtown connecticut speaking on gun violence prevention advocacy, people like fred guttenberg whose daughter died at the public shooting. david hogue was at that event yesterday for run for our lives. shannon mots, a mom who founded demand action. former head of planned parenthood is going to be joining this tour. you're seeing across issues, legal conversation voters is part of this over the next 2 1/2 months they're going to be making the case for reforming the supreme court, talking about the crisis of legitimacy it's facing. even if it doesn't produce a legislative fix in the next two

to three months, it speaks to the fact that the ground is shifting 2020 is the first election where the democratic candidate joe biden won voters because he said the supreme court was very important to them. that's going to be more pronounced in 2024 if this tour is any indication. >> this tour and this move that we oh a debt of gratitude to journalists like dahlia, journalists at propublica, politico and others. i want to spend time with the reporting on justice thomas. we'll get to much more of the ethical lapses of the supreme court as they pile up. later in the hour, the big political story of the day is, of course, president joe biden kicking off his re-election campaign with a warning about the freedoms that have been lost under maga republicans the president making the case he's still the best candidate to keep his twice-impeached and

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dahlia, i want to show the reporting but come to you on this conversation we were just having about this seismic shift of the supreme court as an issue, voting against it in its decisions as a motivator for democrats. >> i think brian put it perfectly, nicolle i think the thing democrats have failed to do, up to and including going into the 2016 election with an empty seat that

had been blocked for months and three october genarians on the court is failing to message that if you care about your issues, whether the environment or guns or reproductive freedom, unions or whatever it is, you have to care about the court we just now are beginning to see the connection that brian is offering which is every one of those issues is intimately connected with who sits on the court. so i do think that that is a kind of piece of connective tissue that took a really long time, particularly for leadership including presidential candidates to message effectively. but it really is, and this is why i think i slightly want to dispute david's point that the political question is somewhat different from the structural question, because we're now heading into the barrel of the supreme court end of term that has affirmative action on the ballot, that has the end of the voting rights act on the ballot, indian child welfare and native

sovereignty on the ballot, the right to refuse service to lgbtq couples on the ballot. there's nothing that's not coming in the next two months. the idea that voters can finally say every one of those things which we hate is intimately connected with who sits on the court, it's not going to be hard to make that connection. >> david jolly, i'll let you respond. >> actually i think it's both, and i appreciate dahlia's point. i think the question about ethics can be advanced by the court and the supreme court that wants to stay out of controversy around their own behaviors to the qualitative question, and you alluded to this as well, nicolle, to a court out of step on campaigning financing, guns, reproductive health care, the environment and unions, this is a political where where democrats need to either go all in or don't play half on this. the answer is to expand the supreme court or you're going to lose a generation of progressive priorities

the way donald trump was able to reshape the court and the age of the current justices, if the idea is to dramatically reshape the supreme court to get different qualitative decisions, then you've got to have that conversation with the american people i think it's two separate conversations, but each of them equally important to have. >> brian, what is the current framing around -- i think the right successfully smeared it by calling it court packing is there an idea to rebrand it as corrective as court ethics? >> absolutely, nicolle the reason si think when and if this package ever moved, a supreme court reform package it would be termed an omnibus package. so many of them address different problems afflicting the court right now. we need term limits, strategically timing your retirement so the president can pick a supreme court justice that is of their party's

affiliation is a problem what happened in 2016 with merrick garland is a problem the fact that jimmy carter was president for four years and picked zero supreme court justices, donald trump was president and got to pick three. it's gaming the system with strategically timed retirements and appointment process. we should have court expansion to address how donald trump and mitch mcconnell, and jammed amy coney barrett down people's throat we need supreme court ethics reforms for all the reasons these stories are bringing to light thanks to the great reporting with propublica and heidi przybilla. they would deal with various problems arising out of the supreme court as a broken institution. we need all these things.

>> let me come back, harry litman, to you law firm head gorsuch owned property a denver-based lawyer for greenburg representing north dakota in what became one of the most highly publicized rulings, a suit that reversed former president obama's plan to fight climate change with the clean air acted. gorsuch agreed with the plaintiffs including greenberg's client, that the epa had overstepped its authority by regulating carbon emissions from power plants in the decision that makes it more difficult for the executive branch to regulate emissions without express authorization from congress. i take your points about the hurdles to imposing on the court an ethics package, but why don't they have a system internally through their clerks or sort of self-policing to recuse themselves when such an obvious and easily discoverable conflict

exists >> they do have a system, but again, it's policed by themselves, individually anyone would have known, unlike the thomas situation, greenberg has 22 cases in which gorsuch was involved you don't have to necessarily recuse, but that blank box really is deafeningly silent the question is could his objectivity reasonably have been questioned i want to be clear, though, i don't think roberts can impose it by edict. but there is a place, as dahlia is suggesting, where they are nine in the room and saying, guys we're getting clobbered with a 2 by 4. they're not going to be able to go backwards and punish thomas, et cetera. but let's adopt these things voluntarily so we don't have to make the constitutional judgment and do it. what's the big deal? we're getting clobbered, and needlessly becoming part of the issue. that decision can maybe happen,

although it's not even clear what the vote would have to be there's precedent for that kind of determination by the conference as a whole. >> as you're speaking, i will share because it's been that kind of day. my bubble over my head is something sarah palin used to talk about, the lamestream media. i can't imagine them coming to that rationale you're right about what they should do, but i think i understand from dahlia's reporting and others that they're in this bunker mode, hunker down and blaming us for the reading the stories. dahlia, brian, harry and david, thank you all for starting us offer with this conversation this hour. when we come back, president joe biden makes it official he's running for re-election to battle back against the maga extremists who are actively working to erode our democracy our political panel joins us after a quick break. they'll be at the table. don't go anywhere. stles) yeek. not cryin', are ya?

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i know you hear it all the time, we're say it one more time presidential elections are about contrast i'm for this stuff my opponent is about this stuff. given all that we've talked about today, this hour and the last hour, this month, this year, the contrast between the two front-runners for president in 2024 is as stark as it's ever been in our country's history.

president joe biden, the incumbent who did not insight an ininsurrection, never been indicted, never impeached, not currently the subject of a number of active on going criminal investigations officially declared his candidacy this morning, four years to the day since his last presidential announcement. you remember back then his pitch was about restoring the soul of america, using imagery from the charlottesville rally to great effect this time it's footage from january 6th front and center starting with the very first frame of his announcement video. from there the president puts a focus on the fight for personal freedoms maga extremists and a conviction to finish the job. hours after that announcement was released, the president addressed a federation of unions in washington, d.c here was his closing message >> i've long said it's never been a good bet to bet against america. i can honestly say assive stand here today, we're on the cusp of a major change, creating jobs

again, manufacturing has come alive again. people can afford decent health care towns that have been forgotten or left behind for dead are coming alive again because of you all and what we're doing now we've just got to keep it going, finish the job. remember who we are. we are the united states of america! there's nothing, nothing, nothing beyond our capacity, nothing, if we work together. >> joining us at the table for this conversation, errin haines, editor at large of the 19th, plus retired marie corps lieutenant colonel amy mcgrath david, excuse me, we're going to start at the table where we have a quorum let me ask you first, the announcement, the timing of it, it's all being done on the president's terms. it feels like he starts at a moment when he and his team feel

very much like they're on offense. >> yeah and are definitely messaging as if they're going to go on offense, taking on the culture war, talking about book bans in that announcement video, talking about the attack on rights against lgbtq people and against women and suggesting that maybe this time around in what appears to be maybe a rematch between trump and biden, there is going to be a democratic response to those culture wars that we're increasingly seeing being turned into policy. >> that's interesting. democrats, and i'm not sure why, because i think the polls over the last five years have shown the public swerving dramatically to the side that democrats champion on choice, on guns, on democracy, on voting joe biden is a pretty good messenger, right he's not a likely messenger for culture wars, but a pretty credible one. >> he's a common sense man, and

he's got the experience. what i love to see in his announcement video and what i'd like to see more of with the democratic party in general is this lean in to patriotism the democratic party should say and tout they are the party, we are the party of national security, mott the other side. the republicans have proven over and over and over again that they're not serious about our democracy. they're not serious about the fence. i think it's about time that democrats take the mantle and run with it. i'm glad to see words like freedom and honor and those types of things being touted by joe biden. >> you are very good at this there are issues where i think in the past republicans have managed to message them as being majority issues, and they're not. the military has come out against sort of post-dons bbs america, makes us less safe. what advice do you have for the president, as erin noted, go on

offense on some of these issues. >> absolutely. lean into it remind people and have trusted messenger, trusted national security leaders say, hey, the republicans are not the party of national security. number one, the biggest reason is their primary candidate led an insurrection against our capitol, breached our capitol for the first time since the war of 1812. he wanted to overthrow a free and fair election. on top of that, if you go even more into details, the plan that mccarthy just put out for the debt ceiling would slash veterans benefits by 22% i'm sorry. but you cannot say you are for veterans and for the military and then turn around and cut the benefits, cut the health care, cut programs for substance abuse, 60,000 jobs that would hurt our veterans. you just can't do that i could list a number, eight, nine, ten different things that show that the republicans are not the party of national

security anymore, and i think democrats and joe biden need to run with that. >> you know, nicolle, on the theme of rights, amy mentioned trusted messengers i think what you also see in that announcement video is that kamala harris is going to be a trusted messenger. i counted i think maybe 15 times that she is in that announcement video. what's the message there not just that he's running, but that they are running. you saw how effective she was in the midterms talking about abortion, talking about voting rights she's been very up front talking about the need for gun reform and really juxtaposing the issue of rights, not just being about the second amendment but being about public safety and who gets to be safe. >> she ties it to our democracy. she's making a bigger argument let me play some of that for you. >> it's been the work of my first term to fight for democracy. it shouldn't be a red or blue

revolution >> to make sure everyone in this country is treated equally and everyone is given a fair shot at making it. but you know around the country maga extremists are lining up, cutting social security that you paid for your entire life, while cutting taxes from the very wealthy, dictating what health care decisions women can make, banning books and telling people who they can love. all the while making it more difficult for you to be able to vote. >> david, it strikes me that it used to be hard to cut an ad like that, that republicans are for marjorie taylor greene, book bans and banning abortions marjorie taylor greene has described kevin mccarthy is anything he would do anything for. abortion bans are all that a lot of republicans in red states want to talk about tell me how you see this national contest at this point t two front-runners are the incumbent president and an indicted, twice-impeached guy

from florida tell me how you see it shaking out today? >> well, nicolle, in sports or politics who you're facing off is incredibly important in determining the ultimate outcome. it's how well you play also, you know the strengths and weaknesses of your opposition. i think today's republican party with very few exceptions is kind of a tailor-made opposition. we know the six to eight states that will determine who our next president. those states, when you think about the swing voters in those states, i think on every issue that's in that video, joe biden and democrats have an advantage. any incumbent, no matter who it is, in the history of democracies, very few can succeed if they don't successfully turn it into a choice, not a referendum i think on these issues right now the president has a huge advantage. there's a couple things we don't know you mentioned trump is right now the front-runner, but we don't know who joe biden's ultimate

opponent is going to be. even if it's someone who holds a lot of the same positions, if there's a generational divide, that's going to be a challenge no question about that we don't know what the state of the economy is going to be and the trajectory of the economy. i think this did a great job of setting up huge stakes around democracy, around rights, who we are as a country the other battle needs to be who can you trust on the economy, almost irrespective of where the unemployment rate was? in 2012 that was one of the reasons that -- someone the average worker could not trust i think joe biden is well positioned to prosecute that campaign given that he does come across as someone who understands the lives and dreams of blue collar workers, talks authentically, has accomplished a lot. i think that's where we are. there are some things we know. republican party deeply wounded and there are some things we don't know

the biden campaign's job is to figure out in either of those scenarios, in all those scenarios, and that's one of the benefits of time republican or democratic incumbent presidents who don't have serious primaries historically have a huge advantage. the biggest advantage is time. you're ready for that battle before your opponent is. even donald trump has to run around the country and dispatch with dats and scott and haley. >> i want to ask you what happened to ron desantis there's been so much news i haven't had time to cover it all. his candidacy seems to have fizzled out before it even started. if any of you have thoughts, you have a minute to think about it. erin, amy and david are sticking around don't go anywhere. rty mutual. they customize your car insurance. so you only pay for what you need! whoo! we gotta go again. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (seth) hi, cecily. i just switched my whole family to verizon.

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after announcing his canndidacy for presidency in 2024 erin, amy and david are still with us. david, you make a fair point about the republican field i will tell you donald trump is way out front of the rest of them to your point, anything can happen desantis is like the rival that wasn't it. he fizzled faster than i could cover him. did intend to cover the trump/desantis smackdown it's like a never mind what do you make of his really lame start >> it's still really early, nicolle. when we worked with each other back in '08, both of our candidates were written awe off multiple times during the off year he's got time. i think there's enough republican voters got time there are enough republican voters even if they like trump, who are worried about his about to win they're going to audition other candidates that said, he's off to a hard start. what you find throughout history

is there are a lot of candidates who lgood on paper, but that campaign stage is a hard stage desantis, it's simple. about today about the economy, they didn't shut down during covid. he's won twice look what they did down in '22 in florida, while trump was presiding over basically a catastrophe elsewhere. we love donald trump he can't win it's not that hard it's like sixth grade politics we'll see when he finally gets in the race. it's an awful start, but like in baseball terms kind of preseason. he's got plenty of time. if we're still saying this in september and october, then he is run out of time but yeah, it's one of the worst starts for such a -- candidate we've seen in modern times. >> interestingly, he didn't come out with the story that david off the tip of his tongue was able to prattle off. he came out with don't say gay expanding to 12th grade.

he came out losing around with disney. >> i think that he somehow thinks that, you know, the path here is to be further right than donald trump, to be even more maga than maga and that he's got to win over those voters in the primary. that seems to me what he's trying to do i'm not sure he's going to be effective in that. i'm not sure you can out-trump trump, you know, but who am i? >> who are we? and the thing that no one was able to do, and i covered it in '15, '16, was cover the asymmetry of his fights. he got rid of candidates by call them fat, sleepy, tired. desantis surely isn't planning to go where trump has gone with him. what do you make of all that

republicans still haven't learned? >> that's just it -- they haven't learned the lesson of 2061, because what is trump effective at doing defining the candidates before they have a chance to define themselves whether it's on social media or on a debate stage. he is putting narratives on them that are very sticky, and -- sorry for using that word with the recent pudding reference, but yeah and so he's already beginning to define desantis before desantis has a chance to really define himself on a national stage. florida is not iowa, not new hampshire, is not nevada, is not arizona, right despite the popularity that he may enjoy as a governor, how that plays on a national stage has yet to be defined, and donald trump is not wasting any time in trying to create that narrative before he has a chance to. >> it's already interesting, and you guys expand my thoughts and my questions we'll continue to ask some of all of you

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