>> our hearts go out to everybody caught in that mess, raf sanchez, thank you very much that right there will do it for me today "deadline white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone it's 4:00 in new york. there's incredible new reporting with new details on the ouster of top fox news anchor tucker carlson. from the network that gave him the platform to spew information that has perhaps permanently reshaped our politics. from the newspaper that is owned by the very same people who reportedly made the decision to fire him, rupert and lachlan murdoch. we have reporting on the factors that helped seal his fate, including his behavior including bombshell disclosures by voting

machine company dominion several weeks ago as fox news lawyers prepared for a courtroom showdown with dominion voting systems, they presented tucker carlson with what they thought was good news. they had persuaded the court to redract from a legal filing the time he called a fox news executive the c-word mr. carlson, fox news' most watched primetime host was not impressed. he told his colleagues that he wanted the world to know what he had said about that executive in a private message the people said mr. carlson said comments he made about former president donald trump, i hate him passionately that were in the court documents, were said during a momentary spasm of anger, while his dislike of the executive was deep and enduring. the tensions between tucker carlson and fox news leadership had been simmering for some time "the wall street journal" also

reports within fox's management, reservations had been mounting about risks mr. carlson presented for the network. some of the people pointed to concerns that the populous fire brand had come to believe himself bigger than the network, a cardinal sin in rupert murdoch's empire and was operating as his own island. mr. carlson sometimes trafficked in what critics, including what some higher-ups at fox thought was thinly vald racism when he suggested a tennessee lawmaker got into a good college only because of his skin color all leading up to that stunning move by the murdochs earlier this week which according to "the wall street journal" was publicly announced just minutes after tucker carlson was told he was fired. the downfall of one of the right-wing media's biggest stars and ideological leaders ever is where we begin today "new york times" political reporter jeremy peters is here he has extensively covered

tucker carlson and fox news. also joining us, former republican congressman and msnbc contributor david jolly is back with us. with us at the table is former democratic congressman sean patrick maloney. this look inside fox is less interesting to me as a corrupt culture and more interesting to me as a permission structure for the republican party i had abby grossberg here yesterday who's suing fox. one of the most revealing things she said is that tucker holds the careers of republican lawmakers in his hands and knows it and loves it. i guess it's chicken and the egg, but they gave him this power. >> yes, and it's just more evidence of how deeply corrupt that organization is and the damage it's done, which is deep and enduring, to coin a phrase i would feel better if the news

corporation decided it should be a news organization. that's fundamentally the difference once it aligns with particular politicians and particular belief systems, it ceases to be that frankly, they're making in kind campaign contributions to a number of politicians and against others the truth is that if any of us could even pay for that, it would constitute an enormous in-kind contribution which of course is illegal. and so the whole structure does violence to not just journalism but to our politics in a way that shouldn't surprise any of us boy, to see it in black and white like that is amazing. >> i don't think i've ever read even a quote from a newspaper, definitely not from "the wall street journal" that read the c-word, jeremy peters. but in trying to report out, i know you're on this story as well this week, what led to his firing, we know it wasn't the content. the content was anything but thinly veiled, it was flagrantly

racist it was anti-u.s. military in the view of a lot of people in the military it was anti-bipartisan foreign policy when it came to the war in ukraine but it is revealed in this story, which is why we're starting with it, that his hostility and animosity that he, quote, wanted the world to see toward his own executives was one of the tipping points. how does that play into your understanding of this week's events >> this is a major reason he's no longer there, nicolle there were a lot of contributing factors to his demise. patience had been wearing thin at the highest levels of the company with tucker carlson for a long time and that included with the murdochs. here is somebody who is anti-vaccine, yet the head of the company, rupert murdoch, was one of the first people in -- well, he was vaccinated very early and made a big deal of it. tucker carlson also of course

was a january 6th denialist and that got so bad and his repeated insistence that this is just a group of -- something like tourists who were ambling through the capitol innocently, it really rankled the murdochs just one seepisode after the ote piled up when you have a human resources issue like this, that tends to be when fox pulls the trigger. remember with bill o'reilly, about roger ailes, they didn't get shown the door because of anything that they allowed on the air at fox it was ultimately because there was a complaint or in their case multiple complaints internally that's what we see here. we know from my colleague nick confessore's reporting that there had been some hr investigations into tucker

carlson's behavior, the creation of a hostile workplace, and we see from abby grossberg's lawsuit the kind of conduct that was condoned on that set was just really appalling. and i think what happened, at least what my reporting tells me, it was this accumulation of problems he became a management headache that they were no longer willing to tolerate and tucker carlson learned like many other people have in the past who thought they were untouchable that you ultimately serve at the pleasure of the murdoch family. >> i mean, david jolly, if you're calling an executive above you the c-word and you want the world to know, how are you treating abby grossberg? >> yeah, look, i think we're learning a lot about tucker carlson, the person, as a result of this. your conversation with abby yesterday enlightening the country on the workplace situation under tucker carlson's

leadership, if you will. for that, he deserves scorn and accountability and ultimately, i suppose, the network decided too much was too much. i also think to sean patrick's point, the question is does this represent at all a new editorial direction for fox news and apparently that answer is no the more we learn that this is about tucker carlson's own failings, his own hostile work environment, it is less and less about the great replacement theory or his antagonism against the lgbtq community or his line about the vaccine or his embrace of dictators around the world or his denial of the election apparently it's none of that, which suggests that fox news will enter the 24 cycle just as strong in the counternarrative and a narrative around falsehoods as they are leaving it with tucker carlson but one intriguing thing, nicolle, there are camps in today's republican party and for the trump family

personally to be so offended by tucker's carlson on the heels of lara trump herself being terminated, i don't know what that means for the fox family and the relationship of trump so long as he remains the front-runner in the republican nomination. >> that's really interesting that's like inside the wrinkles in the sort of ideological or intellectual rot on the right. i want to read a little bit more from this "wall street journal" reporting. that it's in "the wall street journal" is interesting to he, also owned by the murdochs while tucker carlson was popular, he was repellent to blue ship advertisers. his show has filled the void with ads from direct response advertisers and mypillow, inc. it stars ceo mike lindell who appeared as a guest and was one of the most prominent people spreading the false election fraud narrative. the lack of advertiser demand

meant the commercials in many cases weren't being sold at a premium or commensurate with the audience size which meant it wasn't providing a financial windfall to the network. i mean this was news to me that he does a huge audience, which if you do what he does and do what i do, that is one indicator but it didn't correlate to blue chip advertisers maybe it should have been obvious, i didn't watch it enough to take in who all the advertisers were when mike lindell who is also being sued is your biggest advertiser and your fate is tied together with the pillow guy, that seems unsurprising. >> any time you look over and the only guy with you is mr. pillow, it's probably a bad sign just in general. but can i just say something look, i just think that what we have learned is that hatred is like a performance-enhancing

drug it will kill you eventually. but in the short term it creates all kinds of strength and unfair competition. that fueled his rise and fox and the news corporation were more than happy enough to profit from that by the way, i'm sure there were plenty of blue chip corporations who thought it was fun when you're creating this monster in the dungeon and screaming it's alive, but once it's creating more trouble than it's worth, you move on. some of us are just begging them to be conservative, not cynical, not phony. if the c-word is really consequences in this case, that's good. but it should be for the network and its owners, not just for one host because they can replace him tomorrow and we've seen them do that before. >> jeremy, do you have any reporting that suggests that content other than to the degree that it was, quote, repellent to

advertisers was a factor is it more this pile-up of conduct and animosity toward the executives >> certainly some of the content on the air, especially around the january 6th denialism, did not sit well with the murdochs i'm told it certainly -- rupert murdoch and lachlan, his son, who run the company felt as far back as last summer that donald trump was so toxic and his continued lies about the election so destructive to the republican party's fortunes in the upcoming midterm elections that donald trump didn't appear on the air for much of 2022 on fox news it was like 200 plus days that fox went without airing a single interview with donald trump. so the murdochs believe that

this kind of denialism, this revisionist history is ultimately really bad for the party. where tucker comes into that is his false claims that this somehow, january 6, was a false flag operation if you think about it, what rupert murdoch was trying to do was pull fox news and the rest of his operation back toward politics of conservatism that he's comfortable with, and that's more of the mitch mcconnell mold of republican politics rupert murdoch, for all that his channels elevate these far right incendiary commentators, he's more of a mitch mcconnell guy. seeing tucker carlson step in controversy after controversy, elevating these stories that carlson himself expressed doubt

about and in some cases knew not to be true i think was a contributing factor once you add in the constant human resources issues, the bullying workplace it just became time to say you've got to go, you're more trouble than you're worth. >> and i guess, david jolly, i don't share murdoch's interest in purging the network of tucker carlson because he damages the wings of the republican party that rupert murdoch thinks are worth salvaging. i think that tucker carlson's role as sort of the head of the fish that's been chopped off is interesting as a homeland security story what he amplified and exacerbated and gave voice to sits at the intersection of the current threat of domestic extremism. the very thing he railed against, mask mandates, vaccine mandates i mean his attacks against the

united states military were absolutely galling if that wasn't a circuit breaker for someone like a tom cotton to say i'm going to boycott the network until tucker carlson apologizes the military in which i serve, no, tom cotton participated in some of that i think the tucker carlson story -- and jeremy is right, this is what drove murdoch but in terms of why it's, i think, an interesting story in covering the current threat of domestic violent extremism, it's because of what he revealed there's such an appetite for and i want to show some of that specifically about white supremacy. >> when pressed the democratic party have a new label for anybody they disagree with white nationalists i don't even know what white nationalist means. this is a hoax how is it white supremacy? that's not white supremacy can somebody tell me in very clear language what a white

supremacist is what is white supremacy. we still don't know despite fervent efforts to find out. again, what is a white supremacist? >> so, you know, everyone that watched tucker carlson's show is not a white supremacist, but i'm sure that among the white supremacist viewing habits, tucker carlson was dvr' ed. >> let me take a shot at answering tucker carlson about what's white nationalism it's who espouses the white replacement theory he thinks black and brown immigrants are dirty and poor and are going to infect white culture. there, your question is answered what i find fascinating is the way that murdoch is trying to

really pinch him and clearly keep him in a box. murdoch is using his platforms to try to keep tucker from coming out and saying anything else and the question is, is he really trying to be the rush limbaugh of this generation in a cage and try to redirect some of the conservative conversation or is he trying to preventing the marketability of tucker carlson? i think that's where the insults around the advertising comes in because it's not often understood that ratings don't translate to revenue so even murdoch is not just saying he doesn't represent who we are as a corporation but he's also not as profitable as the media world might not think he is murdoch is going right at carlson here i would love to think it is because carlson has a history of flirting with white nationalism and authoritarians around the world. we haven't seen that signal from murdoch but perhaps jeremy is right and i think the nation would be better if so. >> jeremy, let me read a little

bit more of what was unearthed through the dominion lawsuit this was from -- these were texts between tucker carlson and an unknown it sounds like colleague. the unknown colleague writes to tucker, great show so far. i know that b block script is wordy but it came out great. tucker carlson, it was awesome sidney powell is a lying f-word, b-word unknown writes back, it is a top article on media i also sent to breitbart, caller, examiner and "the new york times." carlson, dude, nice job. the rest of the text is redacted how much of what was redacted -- i was led to believe by some folks close to the dominion side that a lot of it was redacted because it was very embarrassing, sort of politically explosive, maybe not legally devastating. how much do you think will sort of remain redacted

what is the current state of what we know was sort of captured in the discovery process but never seen by the general public because the trial didn't happen? >> first, think about everything that we now know about the disparaging way that tucker carlson spoke about a president he pretended to be a champion of think about the way he spoke of his colleagues and the toxic workplace environment that he helped create. think about all of the things he has said on his air that didn't just tiptoe up against the line of being racist, they were racist so he wasn't fired when we knew any of that, when any of that was revealed he was fired this week once it became clear that he was bad for business, he was bad for the fox brand. and ultimately that's what we saw here it wasn't a decision based on

anything he had really said on the air, it was based on what he said privately and i think fox has always been so concerned about what is behind those big black boxes on page after page of court filings in the dominion defamation case. we may get to see more of those. so "the new york times" and other news organizations have challenged those redactions because under the law, you can't redact something, nicolle, as you point out just because it's embarrassing the judge in the case, i was there when he said it to fox you can't -- just because somebody says something that maybe wasn't so bright doesn't mean that you can take it out and put it under a black mark. but that seems to be what fox has done in many of these instances. so i don't know how the judge will ultimately decide if he decides at all, but there is the possibility that we could see more of these redactions because

fox used too heavy a hand here >> i constantly am pressing myself to explain why this matters. claire made a good point so tucker has an audience of about 3 million. tens of millions of people, though, just on the republican side it matters because a show watched by just 3 million people sets the agenda for the entire party. tucker cast the speaker, right matt gaetz and all these others are saying -- tucker is telling them what to ask for dude, i've got nothing left to ask, i've got everything you told me to ask it truly is a media-run state on the right in america what are your concerns about that >> where to start? for starters, i was there on january 6th. it took a lot less than 3 million people to break into the capitol and to hurt a lot of police officers and to shake the foundation of our democracy. so when you can reach that many

people and incite to violence even a small fraction of it, it can have enormous consequences in fact even one person can change the course of american history, so you're playing with fire for one thing what really has to happen is that good, accurate reporting needs to be a good business model. and that's on all of us. it would be nice if the news corporation would give it a try because i think there is a market for conservative viewpoints god knows. they do it well in other contexts, particularly on the news pages of "the wall street journal" there are reputable conservative outlets out there it's not impossible. but you cannot have this -- you cannot have this effort to create a power center in american politics under the guys of a news organization it is deeply corrupting. we have seen the consequences. last point, tucker carlson is unique in that he did bring to the surface some of the darkest stuff on the internet. >> totally. >> that even other fox news

hosts wouldn't touch >> right >> and so to really bring that into the mainstream is a new level, a new low thank god he in particular is gone at least for now. but the network has got to clean up its act. >> yeah, and there's no -- i mean the carnage, you could make a list that could go from the ceiling to the floor five times. ray epps who was an oath keeper was on "60 minutes" and talked about how his life was destroyed by tucker talking about january 6th being an inside job. he wasn't fired over content as far as we know that's why people like jeremy are still on this story and we keep consuming everything he diggs up jeremy peters, thank you very much for starting us off today david jolly, thank you for starting us off and centering us sean patrick maloney is along for the hour. when we come back, the e. jean carroll case against the twice impeached and now indicted

ex-president is going on she was one of the first witnesses on the stand after the judge issued a warning about the ex-president's potential tampering in this case plus, republicans learning nothing from what happened in tennessee, taking their fight against democracy to montana a transgender democratic lawmaker was prevented from speaking on the house floor. today late this afternoon, republicans are seeking to punish her later in the show, enforcing an ethics code at the united states supreme court it is a topic we've covered a lot around here. well, congress is getting serious about enacting one we'll speak to a member of the senate judiciary committee all that and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick brk.ea don't go anywhere.

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today there are two important developments to tell you about in two unprecedented cases right here in manhattan involving the disgraced ex-president and current gop front-runner both showcasing the unhinged dangerous client that he is, one who makes lawyers hire lawyers and now forces judges to spend time issuing warnings about him provoking political violence first, the judge in a rape and defamation civil case under way right now has ordered clients and witnesses of both parties to not make statements that could, quote,in cite violence or civil unrest in this case writer e. jean carroll took the stand today, emotional at times while telling her story to a jury for the very first time saying this, quote, i'm here because trump raped me. and that she's been unable to have a romantic relationship

since the alleged incident, which she says happened in the 1990s and which trump denies carroll is also seeking damages from trump for his public comments about her and her accusations, which he called a hoax also this week just a few blocks away, prosecutors for the manhattan d.a.'s criminal case over hush money payments moved to limit trump's access to evidence to only when he's in the presence of his lawyers, citing his, quote, long standing and perhaps singular history of attacking all those, quote, involved in legal proceedings against him. putting those individuals and their families at considerable safety risk. joining us, msnbc contributor and "new york times" reporter katie benner, former congressman sean patrick maloney is still with us. melissa, take me through the scale of completely unprecedented to common place that this would happen in two

ongoing legal proceedings. >> well, i spent a lot of time in federal court when i was a clerk and saw a lot of high-profile trials during that time i don't think i can ever recall a judge chastising a litigant in this way, making it very clear that the litigant was not to do anything that might provoke public outrage toward the jury or even to promote political violence so this does seem to be an unorthodox step from judge louis kaplan but one that's perhaps necessary given the unprecedented nature of both of these suits. he's the judge in the e. jean carroll case but again, the fact that this is a litigant who's very prone to go on social media and incite his followers i think is weighing heavily on both of these matters. >> i think it's a reminder too, katie, that there are human beings whose lives have been up ended first by trump's conduct and by the way he behaves when

any attempted accountability commences. the entire second volume of robert mueller's report is about his efforts to obstruct the investigation of what's covered in the first volume. it's longer. >> sure. >> i want to read what that was like for e. jean carroll e. jean carroll acknowledged people have suffered worse than being the target of donald trump's wrath online but said the toll is nonetheless devastating. it hit me and it laid me low i lost my reputation nobody looked at me the same it was gone, e. jean carroll said, sounding anguished people with no opinion now thought of me as a liar and hated me the force of that hatred was staggering she described receiving at least ten serious threats, including being emailed death threats. she said she also received terrible messages through her ask e. jean mail bag she got supportive messages but they were outweighed by the harmful ones, she testified. the violence and the dirt and seedy language and people describing what they think i did and why nobody in the world

would touch me because of my enormous ugliness has sort of swamped the heartfelt letters i received this is a thing about the human brain, there can be a million letters of support but it's the hideous ones, even if they're not in the mainstream, that sear and damage us. i remember when trump was president, covering comfort people he'd wake up and tweet at they're normal people. she alleges she was raped by him and simply have the rule of law, and this is what her life has become. >> i think that what you've described is one of the reasons why trump is a very formidable candidate, why he was such an unorthodox and unusual president and why it seems like it's very hard to beat him because he's willing to go to a place that most people would never, ever go he's willing to ruin lives in order to represent himself online, in order to get what he wants, in order to, quote, unquote, win over in the court of public opinion or amongst his

supporters and he seems to take great pleasure in that destruction. it's really hard for a norm ative person to run against that because very few people who want to go there. those who do end up dragging an entire party or entire conversation, an entire -- even an entire debate down to that level. so you've exactly described why he is so powerful. it's hard to overcome that what's so interesting is the judge says he wants to put up some consequences for that so in asking trump not to discuss the case and call his conduct wrong and satisfying that he's not supposed to be criticizing e. jean carroll on social media as this trial proceeds, he's basically laying down the possibility of consequences in the form of being held in contempt, fines, et cetera, all the way up to jail time depending on what he does it will be interesting to see how impactful that is, because trump has another court hearing potentially he faces, the criminal court hearing in the bragg case and potentially even more court hearings.

so not only has this judge laid down the possibility of consequences, he's creating somewhat of a playbook for what we might see in future cases but again to your point, it's necessary to do because trump is so unusual in the length that he'll go to silence his critics. >> i have watched maybe too many mob movies and series. it's not -- i mean he's thuggish it's obstruction, it's tampering. there are crimes that he commits just by attempting to avoid accountability for the crimes he allegedly commits. >> yeah, that's right. can i just say i'm so inspired by people like jean carroll. you've just got to take a breath and say what courage it took for her to stick with this, to put up with all that insanity and hatred and to get her day in court, right it's an act of faith that if you just keep doing the right thing, there will be a day when it matters. and i think all of us have wanted for years, and i know so many of you viewers just want there to be consequences

just want there to be accountability for all of the pain and the sorrow and the damage he has created over the years. and sometimes it just takes one person like jean carroll so i hope she gets a moment today, tomorrow, soon to just know that she is carrying the hopes of so many of us and she's paid a price and we know it. but that's what heroism is i think what he's doing is remarkable. >> let me deal with what you just said, though, because i think it's not that people are impatient or frustrated, it's that -- you know, if you're five minutes late in filing your taxes electronically or get one digit wrong, maybe i experienced this recently, you get 37 emails within 12 hours. donald trump has been breaking the tax laws based on a lot of excellent journalism from katie's colleagues he's allegedly raped someone in a dressing room. he's committed all sorts of alleged campaign violence violations and there's been nothing. how do you deal with that as a country? >> well, i believe that there will be consequences in this

world or the next for donald trump. >> in the next world where do we go to see that >> i wouldn't want to be donald trump standing there in front of st. peter. i'm just telling you i think if you believe in life after death, if you believe in a christian view of what comes next, you know, he's going to be in a world of hurt and has certainly done everything to deserve it. but if you care about justice in this world, and we do, then it takes people like jean carroll to move it forward and i do think the story of 2021 to 2023 has been slowly, you are seeing gravity pull him back to earth. that's happening with these criminal indictments, it's happening politically, it's happened with what you're seeing even at places like fox news, that this maga brand that he has unleashed on us is a loser among swing voters that's why they underperformed in the midterms. it's why he can't beat joe biden

in a rematch and he will not forever escape these consequences all of us who play by the rules feel like chumps every day that goes by, right >> yes >> and that's what makes you crazy. and so the only thing i know how to do is keep supporting people like jean carroll and so many others who have said, no, we're going to believe in the system it's not perfect, but the rest of us are playing by the rules and we're not fools for doing it it's because we can create something better in our own lives and for our country if we buy into playing by the rules. this guy is going to pay a price for his misconduct. >> chumps, i feel seen katie benner, let me come back to your point about a judge sort of laying down some parameters this is nbc's reporting of what happened today judge kaplan suggested to trump lower joseph tacopina that the former president could risk being sued or have sanctions we're getting into an area in which your client could face a new liability and i think you

know what i mean in his first truth social post on wednesday trump quote the e. jean carroll case, ms. bergdorf goodman, is a made up, all caps, scam her lawyer is a political operative financed by a big political donor, blah, blah, blah i'm not going to read the rest of it but he goes on to invoke monica lewinsky's dress and stuff. the judge then said that trump refused -- it's insanity but what he's amplifying and it goes right back to the point that e. jean carroll writes about, right? that just to be up there playing by all the rules subjects you to a litany of threats, exposes you to death threats >> absolutely. and what's so interesting about what the judge has done and even that statement you just read, making potentially false accusations about e. jean carroll's lawyer being financed by a shadow group. these are things that as we've seen in the dominion case some

people are actually willing to sue over if they're patently false. trump hasn't faced consequences in a very, very long time, if ever this is a very unusual point in his life where there are consequences that may come to bear even if they're financial consequences keep in mind, e. jean carroll, this is not a criminal trial for rape what she's trying to do is collect damages for the lost years of her life that were harmed by these allegations -- this alleged activity. and so for trump, the consequences, even a financial consequence is new for him and it's a big deal for him. we actually don't know how much money he has and these are real difficulties. what's so interesting is he doesn't know how to stop engaging in the kind of behavior that could get him into trouble, that could get him sanctioned, that could come with defamation suits and come with more fines it's almost like he doesn't know how to do anybody but who he's been for decades and that we will see whether or not the

courts are actually able to impose if nothing else real financial pain for this activity >> melissa, the "access hollywood" tape has been permitted as evidence. how do you think that will be used and what impact do you think that will have >> again, this is a civil case, so there's a very -- there's a much lower standard for the jury to decide here it's going to be a preponderance of the evidence as opposed to proving any charges beyond a reasonable doubt i think that "access hollywood" tape could go a long way in that this was behavior that donald trump bragged about at one point in time, that he didn't seem to take very seriously and that she may be very much telling the truth with regard to this incident and also in identifying the consequences to her and her reputation after the fact. so, again, there's a lot of evidence that could come in here but that "access hollywood" tape goes right to the heart of the matter >> i think so too. i never thought i'd want to hear it again but if it helps seal his fate here, we might play it one more time. katie benner, thank you for

being part of our conversation and coverage. still ahead for us, z zoe zephyr was given her right to speak before the house vote on her future in the montana state legislature. how that vote went down for her, the state's only transgender lawmaker, after republican colleagues tried to silenchee r.

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silence people who hold you accountable, then in the name of -- all you are doing is using decorum as a tool of oppression. when the speaker gavelled down the people demanding that democracy worked, demanding that their representative be heard, when he gavelled down, what he is doing is driving a nail in the coffin of democracy. but you cannot kill democracy that easily. >> they are trying that was montana state representative zoe zephyr earlier today after her colleagues voted to censure her. her remarks marked the first time the representative has been allowed to speak since warning her colleagues that if they ban gender-affirming care they would, quote, have blood on her hands. her microphone has been repeatedly disabled when she's attempted to speak and she has been misgendered by her own colleagues seven of her supporters were

arrested yesterday during a rally urging leaders in the legislature to simply stop silencing her. her colleagues have called her remarks, quote, hateful rhetoric according to the trevor project, more than 50% of transgender and nonbinary kids across the united states seriously considered suicide in the last year melissa murray and sean patrick maloney are still with us. i wish as a parent that our kids could be insulated from our politics and our debates, especially right now, but they can't and they're not and so they see these debates she was making a point that i think is backed up by the trevor project's own research the consequence has been censure, not with the nashville three which was to be expelled, but she's currently barred from the floor. is this what democracy looks like >> no, it feels more like a witch trial. it feels like taking someone who's different than you and finding a way to put them down, to put them in a box, to -- an

historical example is to take their life as a warning to others to be quiet look, we're in a fight right now for lgbtq equality in this country. and it's up for grabs in a way i think a lot of us wouldn't have believed when i went to congress, my family couldn't have health insurance through my job in the united states congress because of the defense of marriage act we've repealed that and made progress but we're getting fewer republican votes now than we used to on the equality act, which is basic nonemployment discrimination it's because they have latched onto the trans issue in particular. >> why >> it's their last holdout when we brought gay marriage to the floor in the respect for marriage act, we got 47 r republicans. they have largely given up because their own communities are now so welcoming to lgb

people but when you get to the t, their ignorance about this it's still politically powerful i can't even bear to listen to someone who's been elected and has a right to be there. you don't have to agree with her, you just have to treat her with respect it's just a very familiar situation for many of us who have had to fight for our place in society and to demand respect. not love, because not everyone will give that to you, but respect. if you've been elected by the voters, you get to be respected and accorded the rights and privileges as any other member of that body i feel like the only reason they didn't expel her is because of what those incredible people did in tennessee to stand up for themselves but it's amazing that it's happening again. it just means we've all got to be in this fight. >> melissa, do you see any avenue for her to fight a legal fight? i mean she's literally been

silenced and she represents people, constituents in the state of montana >> surely i think there is a strong case to be made, relying on earlier cases like the julian bond case when he was expelled from the georgia house of representatives. there's a legal matter for that. i just want to go back to something that representative maloney said i'm not sure this is a witch hunt that sort of anest sizes it to some extent. this is fascism pure and simple. we saw police officers removing her from the state chamber it is the public chamber, the people's house she's a representative of the people of her district who elected her validly and she is there to represent their interests. and her microphone has been turned off she's been told not to speak and that she cannot speak because she is espousing messages with which the majority does not agree. that is the very definition of authoritarianism and fascism it's not just about the lgbt

community, it is about democracy. we all have to understand that last week or two weeks ago it was about anti-gun protests. this week it's about anti-trans protests. and our fates are completely intertwined. we have to stand together against this, because this is the most profound threat to democracy and happening every d. it is becoming normalized. we are becoming anesthetized to it. >> you want to respond >> i agree i only say it looked like a witch trial because it comes, i think, with the intense hatred of people, particularly women, and particularly people who cross gender roles in the view of what other people think should be taboo. that's when it ignites that's when people lose all sense. to me, that's what the witch trials were. i don't quarrel for a minute with the fact this is authoritarianism that's exactly right do you know how many times somebody says, you have blood on your hands honestly, it's one of the most

cliched expressions. it's used all the time the fact that that was the trigger to try to throw her out or silence her, no, it's exactly the authoritarianism that is looks like >> melissa, we will thank you. we will sneak in a quick break we at the table will be right back don't go anywhere. (seth) and it's only $35 a line. (cecily) not that you're bragging. (vo) with verizon unlimited for $35 a line, your family now gets disney+, hulu, and espn+. all three included. verizon

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him are in the room right now. i nearly died on their watch furthermore, as a result of what happened to me, i may have been robbed of the opportunity to have children in the future. it's because of the policies that they support. what happened to me was horrible but i am one of many >> that was the extraordinary amanda zuroski she's suing over her state's restrictive abortion ban in front of the u.s. senate today with a message for her senators about what their policies have done to her. we are back. we were talking about how choice and guns, too -- 83% of americans would like to see abortion legal in all or most instances. 85% of americans support background checks. republicans are on the other side of two 85% issues >> we just litigated this.

it's a big part of why they underperformed if you give swing voters a choice between maga and mainstream, they will go mainstream the theme of your show has been these extraordinary heroins from jean carroll and amanda. they are giving voice to these policies there will be a price. there's so much damage being done the fact is if you are talking about the politics, democratic party can and should litigate these issues in competitive races. there's going to be a price to pay for the republicans who are in denial about it. >> you think we can sustain a national conversation around these two issues in '24? >> i think it's intensifying if you look at how the roe v. wade has unfolded, if you look at the increase in school shootings and violence because of guns, i don't think there's

any way something will go away something would have to be so dominant to drawn them out that underlying distinction -- look at joe biden right now, who is leading the country from the center who is talking about jobs and bringing manufacturing jobs back had the strong launch and is out there with the union audience talking about middle class values and helping working people the contrast is going to be guys trying to ban abortion in almost all circumstances, racking up stories like those -- doing nothing while kids are gunned down in schools. those are two issues that distinguish. i think if you are president biden, you feel good about that contrast but the stakes are very high we have to win this debate >> thank you very much for being here with us i know it's not your first choice we are glad to have you. up next, chief justice john roberts has officially but politely declined to appear before a congressional hearing

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the real key to the distinctiveness of america is the structure of our government. one part of it, of course, is the independence of the judiciary. there's a lot more >> what does this document do, the constitution i can tell you in about five words. it creates a structure for democracy. >> that was a long time ago. it's 5:00 in new york. it was a rare spectacle on capitol hill in 2011 justices testifying before the senate judiciary committee those two justices no longer serve on thehighest court. their appearance that day was at the time and remains a powerful

symbol of our democracy. yet now in the year 2023, when the u.s. supreme court is facing a barrage of questions and concerns around its politics and its ethics, its own chief justice is refusing to testify before congress. chief justice roberts in a letter last night saying he would, quote, respectfully decline a request to appear nex month. roberts cited separation of powers concern and the importance of preserving judicial independence. he listed how infrequently they have appeared before that senate committee. he attached a statement of ethics practices for the justices, which in light of recent bombshell reporting on justices thomas and gorsuch, is either not being followed or is woefully inadequate. what chief justice roberts doesn't acknowledge is why the request came through to him in the first place. it's, of course, because of the

extraordinary situation the u.s. supreme court currently finds itself in. a crisis of confidence antd leand legitimacy that even they don't deny thomas sold to and accepted extravagant gifts from a friend. senator durbin said, it's time for congress to accept its responsibility to establish an enforceable code of ethics for the supreme court, the only agency of our government without it our friend jordan rubin, writes this, about how roberts refusal letter is very revealing it's not so much an argument as it is just lifting things that did or did not happen before without doing the work of connecting those things to the conclusion that he, therefore, must decline durbin's invitation the implication of roberts' letter is that it might be appropriate for him to testify

if it were about a routine subject. but that this situation is too extraordinary to warrant his appearance that argument actually makes things worse it serves to highlight the extreme circumstances in which the roberts court finds itself richard blumenthal said chief justice roberts dodging responsibility and declining to appear before our committee is another example of the supreme court thinking it doesn't have to answer to anyone. now you own the court's betrayal of public trust. this betrayal by the u.s. supreme court is where we begin this hour with senator blumenthal thank you for coming back. >> thank you good to be with you. >> i believe you predicted that this would be the response from chief justice roberts. i would still love to hear about what the next best scenario is for congress to truly do the work of the american people who

have -- let me put this up it's an extraordinary -- it's not a decline in public support. it's a plunge. in 2000, 75% of americans had a great deal or fair amount of trust in the supreme court by 2010, down to 66% 2020, it's down to 67% in 2022, 47% i don't think there's a single institution in american civil light, not the one you serve in or the one in which i work, that has plunged that quickly that fast >> that is a very, very important point. the supreme court depends for its authority and power on the trust and credibility of the american people. police force.urt has no armie it is supposed to be the least dangerous branch, as it has been characterized. because it has no physical force. the only reason people follow the supreme court is a belief in its integrity.

i will grant the supreme court must be independent. but being independent doesn't mean that the highest court in the land is above the law. that is why now a proper investigation is necessary the chief justice has regrettably, even repre -- it we a stain. there has to be an investigation by the judicial conference, which he heads, or the justice department, probably both. in the ongoing absence of action, congress must act to uncover all the facts. what's most regrettable here is that justice thomas has created the appearance that the supreme court is for hire. open to the highest bidder, in

his case, harlan crow, who had leadership roles in organizations with cases before the supreme court. that kind of appearance of impropriety cannot be allowed to stand and stain the court. >> will the committee consider inviting justice sotomayor, who rather famously spoke about the stench on the court because of conservative legislative bodies, legislating because of who had been appointed to it would you consider inviting the liberal justices who may be more interested in being part of the conversation about ethics? >> we should consider inviting other justices but also subpoenaing other witnesses as well as documents as a last resort, if there's no action by other branchs of government with appropriate responsibility, either the judges themselves or the justice department, the judiciary

committee should consider subpoenas for the justices who may be concerned you know, the house judiciary committee is also a place where responsibility lies, because i think there's a need to consider impeachment here i'm clear-eyed i have no illusions about the house judiciary committee chaired by republicans beginning an impeachment proceeding against justice thomas i think congress as a whole has a responsibility here. >> are you aware of any conversations that have gone on between the senate judiciary and the house judiciary over just the idea of any oversight? is that not happening because of the republican leadership in the house? >> i am not aware of any such conversation between our committee on the senate side and the house. but i will say in answer to your question that the chief justice has been a little bit disingenuous here.

cases of the chief justice appearing before the congress are rare, but there have been a lot of cases of other justices appearing before the judiciary committee or other bodies of congress if he won't appear, others should >> are you aware of any -- i imagine a subpoena -- a vote and a -- can you take me through where the conversations are among your colleagues about a subpoena for the justices? >> i think this kind of consideration is just beginning, because we just received this reply. we are all hoping against hope that the chief justice would voluntarily appear i speak for myself personally in saying, we ought to consider subpoenas. i think that we ought to take every possible action. consistent with the independence of a judiciary we asked them to do it themselves, to adopt a code of ethics on their own. so far, they have refused.

i think there ought to be an inspector general along with a code of ethics for the judiciary. right now, we are beginning consideration of what our next step should be >> part of the problem seems to be that congress seems more concerned about the collapse in their integrity than they do i want to show you something that your colleague senator booker said this morning >> i read his words closely of the reason why he said -- he talked about it being a rare thing for a chief justice to come before a judiciary committee. and i agree. it's a very rare thing when the united states of america -- when our body politic see judges acting in ways that are so extreme and so out of line with what we would think would be basic ideas of ethics. we have a court now in crisis. this is not a partisan issue we cannot allow our court to

further lose its legitimacy. we have an obligation to address these issues it should be done in an open forum. >> can you think of any president for an institution like the supreme court that acknowledges its own crisis? they all give speeches before -- in some instances special interest groups and other conservative gatherings on the right where they bemoan the loss of integrity and trust in the u.s. supreme court but they don't seem willing to come to the table to present itself as above rereproach what do you do about that? >> absolutely right. i agree with my colleague, senator booker you made the point earlier when you led into this segment, what we face here is -- to use word, it's extraordinary absolutely almost unique in our

history, maybe with the exception more recently of abe fortis who resigned. i think this crisis really demands that the chief justice own it and step forward and help preserve the court's credibility as an institution. what we do now is to uncover all of the facts, which is why a proper investigation, ultimately i think, will be our job to consider we will need to take whatever action many of us are former prosecutors who know how to do investigation. whatever action is necessary to preserve and restore the credibility of the court it is a crisis it's the equivalent of judicial malpractice for chief justice roberts to refuse to come before our committee and answer questions. it is another example of the supreme court saying in effect, we don't have to answer to anyone

that's not the constitution of the united states. >> if you can't get justices, will you subpoena mr. crow and others who have been the topic of investigative journalism about their ties to the justices >> my own view is, yes, we should subpoena mr. crow, anyone else with knowledge and whatever institutions, including his business, for example, or maybe the judicial conference itself, which may have records that illuminate what happened here. the point you make is also very important. so far, what we know has come from investigative reporting the press has given us the information that we have about these years of hundreds of thousands of dollars in gifts and travel and now financial disclosures about justice thomas and i put him in a class of his

own. different from gorsuch right now, who failed to report that brian duffy, the head of a major law firm with potential cases before the law firm bought his property he didn't disclose the identity of the purchaser maybe it was a mistake what justice thomas did in declining to disclose year after year is potentially criminal that's why the department of justice should investigate there are criminal penalties applicable to what justice thomas did >> it also seems -- i said this yesterday that the forms seem to be like sushi menus. at the end of the day, do you also bring in whatever weak and unenforceable ethics officers are at the court and ask them what mechanisms there are to check the -- you fill out a background form when you work in the white house. do you it under penalty of imprisonment

clearly, these dudes are not filling out forms with any fear of anything at all >> there's a thing about enforcement that is creates deterrence prosecution focuses attention. i think the judiciary has been lacking effective enforcement. that's why i have come to believe the judicial branch needs an inspector general as you well know, every agency, every major department of the federal government has an inspector general. they uncover waste, fraud, wrongdoing that can be prosecuted if it's criminal. at the very least, the subject of civil action. why should the judiciary be above the law? it's supposed to be most respectful of the law. and you make an absolutely key point that enforcement has to be part of any code of ethics that's why i am developing legislation that would provide for an inspector general i support other measures that

provide for codes of ethics. there are a number that have been proposed. i think something more in the way of effective enforcement is necessary. >> senator blumenthal, we hope you will come here and keep us updated on your efforts. thank you for starting us off this hour. >> thank you joining our conversation, brian fallon, the executive director of demand justice, and eddie glaud is back. he is an msnbc contributor brian, i have to come up with a new way of articulating this we are in another zone of that which is shocking but not surprising right? of course, roberts isn't coming. but for an institution whose approval among the american people has gone from -- in the year 2000, 75%, to 22 years later, dropping 30 points and down at 47%, to have no interest

in coming before a co-equal branch of government and talking about ethics or trying to defend what it does and doesn't do in the category of ethics is shocking >> it is shocking in a certain sense. it's also not surprising in another sense. we have talked in the past so many times about chief justice roberts and doesn't he see himself as a steward of the court's representation shouldn't he be the one to take the lead and impose a stricter code of ethics on the court? i think that what this letter, turning down dick durbin's request to testify, shows us that he cares more about not appearing to humble the judicial branch relative to this. that's a sad statement it might be race for sitting justices to appear before

congress but it's rare for the court to find itself in a low public standing in terms of the public's test. the ball is really in congressional democrats' court that interview with blsenator blumenthal was striking. often times they feel hemmed in about what they did say. what you heard from senator blumenthal is a willingness and desire to be aggressive here in having the senate ju ddiciary committee take the lead. you heard him call this malpractice. that was striking. you heard him say that it may be the judiciary committee's role to conduct this investigation. you heard him call for the justice department to launch a criminal investigation you heard him say he would be willing to subpoena harlan crow. i hope other democrats on the committee are as forward leading as he is on this blumenthal was the first person to call for clarence thomas to

resign he has been a critic of the blue slip policy. that's inspiring between him and sheldon white dihouse, you have members that are really taking the lead on doing a more serious investigation. >> to brian's point, not so private, in public my news siren was going off when he was saying those things i'm strapped to a chair. eddie, this is probably an unfortunate window into my brain. but i'm thinking of the scene in "jerry mcguire" where tom cruise is saying, help me help me that's how i see this relationship between the senate judiciary committee and chief justice roberts. this is his tenure 2000 to 2022, this is the roberts court. this is his legacy, the representational destruction of the u.s. supreme court i'm not saying it's his fault.

but this is his tenure those are his years. this is the roberts court. 75% of americans had trust in the u.s. supreme court before he got there. 47% do now i wonder when chief justice roberts will let the other branchs help us help you he actually needs them more than they need him at this point. >> common sense would seem to draw -- lead him to draw that conclusion something is not working here. it's clear that chief yusjustic roberts description of himself as an institutionalist doesn't align with the data you laid out, the state of the court. we know that there are those who seem to believe that they are above the law or they are beyond accountability justice roberts either believes that's the case or he is too --

we see this across the u.s. government think about the level of trust in terms of congress think about the level of trust in terms of the supreme court, in terms of the executive branch you open the segment with reflections by justice scalia and breyer about democracy this lack of trust in these institutions give us a window -- a sense of the depth of the trouble we find ourselves in he is not an institutionalist. we can draw that conclusion with many certainty >> yeah. brian, you could schedule a hearing. the democrats control the senate judiciary committee. you could invite mr. crow next week do you think -- i won't call it lower hanging fruit, but some people who aren't preemsupreme justices should be invited in short order? >> absolutely.

t this is so predictable the charitable explanation is that durbin wanted to set a predicate here, if you won't get your own house in order, you will force us to have to do something and create a little permission structure for himself to now conduct an investigation. i hope that's what dick durbin has in mind. there's all kinds of things he can do you heard senator blumenthal say he thinks they should subpoena harlan crow and brian duffy. they could mark up any one of these bills, these ethics bills introduced dick durbin could have a hearing on the bill that was introduced today, bipartisan bill from lisa murkowski of alaska and angus king and introduce a new bill today. >> we will keep watching stay free between 4:00 and 6:00. when we come back, the college board's announcement it

is revising its ap course on african american studies it's what looks like a win for academic freedom and what looks like another defeat -- they are peeling up -- for florida governor ron doeesantis. there's reporting why they reversed the course. the firing of tucker carlson isn't just a big topic in our country. it's big news in russia as well. he was a major amplifier of moscow's propaganda, especially when it came to the war in ukraine. we will take about that. we will be introduced to a russian dissident, a musician, who is risking his life and livelihood to speak out against putin's war. (seth) hi, cecily. i just switched my whole family to verizon. (cecily) oh, it's america's most reliable 5g network. (seth) and it's only $35 a line. (cecily) not that you're bragging. (vo) with verizon unlimited for $35 a line,

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some remarkable new reporting on a major update to a story we brought you here yesterday. after protests by academics and students and citizens, the college board announced it would change the embattled ap african american studies course. that's less than three months after succumbing to political pressure from ron desantis, who said he would not approve the curriculum in his state for being in his words too woke and not, quote, historically accurate the college board decided to strip the course of several topics that included black lives matter, reparations and queer life, forcing an outcry from activists and scholars who said it was done to sensor and

suppress ideas while it's unclear exactly just what would be changed or added back into the curriculum, the move by the college board as far as we know represents another rebuke of the culture wars that have been ignited and fuelled by desantis who meets resistance in his attempts to make florida a so-called anti-woke state. disney sued him over control of the self-governing district joining our coverage, danah goldshtein and eddie is still with us. take us through what's going on at the college board with the ap african american studies course. >> sure. as we know, the course rolled out on february 1 with a big reception in washington at the national museum for african american history and culture around that time, it was

embroiled in debate. so many of the key foundational concepts in the college level discipline of african american studies were either de-emphasized, compared to previous drafts of the class, or removed entirely some include intersectionality, the concept that race and gender and class all interact to inform our experience of the world, concepts to find critical race theory and mentions of black lives matter were all reduced. the college board claimed that this was not because of pressure from ron desantis. but further reporting did reveal that it engaged in negotiations with the desantis administration removing concepts that administration officials objected to. and they have now, in couched terms without apologizing, they have now said, we took this too far. we wanted to expand access to

all of the kids in the country, including those in conservative states like florida to this class. it did run up against another goal we have, which is to present a holistic and complete vision of the discipline we need to go back to the drawing board and revise this class. so i think they are admitting they made mistakes in how they dealt with this extremely politicized debate >> how rare is that for the board to do that to acknowledge that it is in the past that mistakes were made >> yeah. i don't think they are an organization that likes to acknowledge that politics plays a role in what they do it certainly does. we know that they are engaged in lobbying across the country. they employ consultants and lobbyists to talk to state departments of education

they can't mount their advanced placement program if they don't have the cooperation of states and policymakers that's how they get their revenue. a lot does come right from the taxpayer they like to sort of talk about being primarily an academic group. they are that. but they are also very political. i think what this whole series of events has revealed is how politicized their work is. >> i mean, eddie, i guess for our conversation, on the show we have loosely banned the use of dog whistle, because republicans don't use them anymore they use bull horns. i think that what this also illuminates is the limitations in policy and politics of the republican bullhorn. they scream they are anti-woke and would ban the teaching of

history. now they know where the line is. that was across the other side of it. what's interesting to me is that this is turned into a political loser for desantis >> absolutely. i think we have been talking about over and over again that we have to fight for the world we want. we can't just simply concede to the demands of folks who aren't committed to democracy, who aren't to my view -- who don't seem to be committed to a multiracial democracy, who don't want to confront the reality who we are and what we have done what does it mean to fight for the world that we aspire to live in we have to engage aggressively these sorts of claims and not just bend over what we see here very clearly are folks who pushed back. particularly people in my field. you can't have an ap course designed to give high school students college credit for a course that doesn't map on to what we teach them when they get to college there was a pushback i think that reflects what we

have to do more broadly, push back and defend and argue for the world we want, against all the stuff we are seeing. >> just to build on your point, the conversation we just had about the supreme court, the only reason we know about these ethical lapses is because of the role of investigative journalism to your point, there was blowback from academics and families and students the only reason we know how insidious the political efforts were -- i know the board maintains it wasn't politicized. but it's clear from reporting that there was political pressure applied some of that pressure played into the curriculum. if we are without the ability to investigate and see inside institutions that republicans are trying to co-op/corruption, where are we we are more dependent than during the trump years to see

into these institutions. >> if it wasn't for dana's reporting, i would have been hoodwinked i was in conversation after the rollout, trying to figure out what was going on. this is important. remember, going back to how we began the show, this is about democracy. it's structures. the fourth estate, that's the role of the press is critical to a vibrant and functioning democracy. we have to engage in reasoned deliberation about matters that confront if we don't have information, we could be hoodwinked, we could fall for it. we have to be prepared with the relevant information so that we can defend our values, so we can defend our norms, we can defend the world we want. >> dana, i didn't want to embhairaem embarrass you. what do you think happens next >> i want to shout out a few hours ago "the wall street

journal" revealed more emails that revealed how angry they were, how they tried to express their disappointment to the college board about this we know that they have long known that this course would need to go back to the drawing board. what's next? ron desantis and florida have the right to say this is not allowed in our high schools. i think if that is not to happen, it will have to be an outcry from educators and parents. i know on may 3rd, there's going to be a national day of action around this. people will be protesting. it's really teachers and parents that have that strong voice to say, we want access to this curriculum if this is something communities want i will say that for my reporting across the country, many, many schools, particularly those that teach a lot of black students, are really excited about this class. those kids that have piloted the

material this year are getting a lot out of it. >> for your reporting on this -- i read you before i knew you it's incredibly important body of reporting thank you for shouting out the others on the beat thank you for joining us eddie, thank you, for being part of our conversations around here ahead for us, tucker carlson's firing from fox news takes away one of moscow's biggest propaganda mouthpieces someone who has seemingly r reflexively parroted putin

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a good way to gauge tucker carlson's legacy, who is happy and who is sad he is gone? among those celebrating, a number of pentagon officials often the target of his light on facts, just asking questions, criticisms of american military leadership politico reports, the news of his firing was met, quote, with delight and outright glee in some corners, while they cheer, russian officials on the other hand are crying. they appear miserable. last night, the foreign minister unprompted by the way opined on tucker carlson's firing by fox news, suggesting the move is an effort to affront free speech.

it means no more tucker carlson clips on state tv. >> vladimir putin does not want belgium. he wants to keep his borders secure he doesn't want ukraine to join nato that makes sense why is it disloyal to side with russia but loyal to side with ukraine? what is this about why do i hate putin so much? has putin called me a racist, threatened to get me fired for disagreeing with him why is the united states funding biolabs? there's a story here that matters. that's why they are lying about it >> so bad it's almost funny. almost former advisor to president zelenskyy joins us now i knew you would have thoughts >> it's hilarious. i'm back from my biolab.

tucker, i monitor the russian social media on a daily basis. what strikes me as odd about tucker, he features more prominently on russian media than most of the russian p propagandists. somebody who spreads the narrative in such a way that lavrov starts defending him, i think it's good news that he is gone i'm not the only tuckerless person there anymore >> what is the russian theory on why tucker is so closely aligned from a message standpoint with vladimir putin >> to be honest, he placed this propaganda trick he questions the sane reality and offers the insane reality. therefore, there are many

co-incidents and similar narratives with the kremlin. they build an alternate universe where there are biolabs and genetically modified geese, whatever that's partly to do with that. there are allegations, but for legal reasons i'm not going to call them out on air >> what has the impact been in ukraine in watching -- the war has been a harrowing thing from the beginning. there isn't a single day when ordinary ukrainians aren't afraid that they or their families could be hit by a russian missile strike what is the impact that's been punctuated by the most-watched program on the conservative network in our country amplifying disinformation put out by russia at a time of war >> tmy 13-year-old daughter came

to me crying basically telling me that americans hate us and asking me why. i was like, what did you watch fox news she goes, yes. that was my first clue to be honest, it's painful to see that the reality we face every day with death, destruction, torture and rape, and there's some guy gleefully selling the kremlin narrative to the american public, basically condemning some ukrainians to death because he is taking away the support we have from people in the world. that was really bad. there's a silver lining here it's always darkness against the light. in order to fight the darkness, we need to focus on amplifying the light. >> it includes our next guest. you have brought us more friends. you are broadening our circle every day.

when we come back, we will be joined by igor's friend, a russian dissident, he is a rapper he is using his platform to speak out against moscow's invasion while collecting humanitarian aid for the people of ukraine we will talk to him and igor on the other side s it? who can i talk to? can this be treated? stop typing. start talking to a specialized urologist. because it could be peyronie's disease, or pd. it's a medical condition where there is a curve in the erection, caused by a formation of scar tissue. and an estimated 1 in 10 men may have it. but pd can be treated even without surgery. say goodbye to searching online. find a specialized urologist who can diagnose pd and build a treatment plan with you. visit makeapdplan.com today. you need to deliver new apps fast using the services you want in the clouds of your choice. with flexible multi-cloud services that enable digital innovation and enterprise control, vmware helps you innovate and grow.

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russia's unlawful invasion of ukraine have been steeped in human tragedy but also in bravery and courage on the part of the ukrainian people. today we have the opportunity to talk about that courage from a different point of view. from the perspective of a russian who refused to give in, who has been blacklisted for his beliefs. he is a russian dissident and a actor and rapper and singer. he has performed anti-war songs going all the way back to russia's invasion of crimea. igor is with us as well. tell me how you two connected and met each other and brought us to this conversation today. >> well, i was first introduced to his music by my teenage daughter she basically -- she showed me one song that led me on to many

other songs. that was right about the time when i was questioning humanity. i was falling down the well of hatred to everyone basically, he showed me -- it human beings everywhere, russia included and therefore, like, look, for me it's crystal clear. this has nothing to do with your race, gender, your passport, your nationality, anything it's whether your moral values stand the test, whether you're human or a monster and whether you have the courage to stand up for those. as soon as i trusted ivan, we have talked ever since and we'll never stop. >> ivan, tell me how you mustered the courage to talk against your own government. >> i've done it my whole career

and it started like 20 years ago, something like that the first time, i remember i met -- it was, like, 2008, my very first album, and i wrote a couple of political songs for that record despite at that time it wasn't and russia and is about to turn into some monster country. it started like 15 years ago i remember singing in 2008 and it was already understood that something really bad is going to happen and i always was against it.

since 2014 after annexation of crimea i performed in liev, and a girl gave me a ukrainian flag. i took it as i was in ukraine and i love this country and being there so many times, but inrussia i was considered a traitor after that more than half of all my concerts had been canceled after that well, it's -- it's such a long story, you know? >> ivan, what is the feedback you get from your friends and family in russia do they agree with you about the russian government

>> most of them, yes to be honest, it's hard sometimes to talk to older relatives because many of them are the victim of propaganda and russian tv, but in all my years, my friends and relatives the same age as me, they support me. >> ivan, are you allowed to go to russia? are you scared to go home? >> no, i'm not no, i'm not. i'm going to go to jail if i go back >> but you risk jail and you risked your life to tell the truth and to stand with ukraine. why? >> you know, i've always been deeply connected to ukraine. my grandfather was ukrainian,

and he showed me the ukrainian alphabet and taught me how to read ukrainian as well, i grew up right by the ukrainian border in a small city called belgrade which is 80 kilometers away from kharkiv, the second largest ukrainian city, and you know, the cultural influence especially living in belgrade, those of us that started doing something with hip-hop, this influence was huge, and kharkiv was our closest metropolis, not moscow, not st. petersburg it was kharkiv and we developed music we loved and we got predominantly from there. belgrade is quite a small city, as i said, so all of the hip-hop

festivals and the b-boy contests and the stuff like that it all happened in kharkiv and we all agreed to go there to perform, to show ourselves and most of the people in belgrade just went to kharkiv for the weekend, for cheaper shopping or just to walk it is hard to believe that one day we're going to be like enemies. >> yeah. igor, this is the thing that you've tried to explain to us here that there are family ties, there are dult ral cultural ties, and now there are so many ties at war with each other. how do you make sense of that,

igor >> i can't make sense of it. all i can do is just stand up and use my voice and amplify ivan's voice and all of the good people around me i spoke toiv an today and said, look, the only way to truly win this war i'm not talking militarily i'm talking about saving the human side of things and saving souls is not to let the hatred destroy the love and that's why ivan is not my enemy he'll never be my enemy, and he is my ally and my friend and i'll fight for him as hard as i fight for the ukrainians >> igor and ivan, you've inspired me with your bond, your time and with this conversation. i hope it's to be continued. you are both welcome here any day, and ivan, igor can tell you what that means in terms of our late-night calls thank you very much to both of you fohar ving this conversation here with us a quick break for us we'll be right back.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now hi, ari. >> hi, nicole. so nice to see you welcome to "the beat" everyone i'm ari melber we are running and gunning i have a lot for you tonight i have the secret tapes of ted cruz about how he tried to steal the election and we have ted cruz's response. he responded directly to that beat report from last night and we have something else a a new excerpt from the cruz tapes and tucker carlson's firings and new detailan