the last second, he made some changes for the people that were complaining. he got it passed, but this is the very first step in a long -- you know, in what is going to be a very tense series of negotiations we can tell you that, you know, he did anger some of the people that are loyal to him. with such a slim margin, it's just not clear, you know, if he's in peril in future negotiations with people he needs. >> the clock is very much ticking on the debt crisis it could be hit in june, a few months ago alex thompson, great to see you. talk to you again soon thanks for getting up "way too early" on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now four more years. four more years. four more years. four more years. four more years. four more years. >> thank you. >> four more years

four more years. four more years. four more years. four more years. four more years. >> now, if you want to really drive 'em crazy, you say, "12 more years." >> 12 more years >> one of the many differences between president biden and former president trump as the two appear headed for a rematch of 2020. this morning, we have new polling that continues to show americans do not want to see it. we'll dig into the numbers in a moment it appears, also, that we're just a few weeks away from ron desantis officially jumping into the 2024 presidential race we'll explain what has to happen in florida before he can announce it comes as disney takes action against the florida governor. >> what'd i say about mickey mouse with brass knuckles? i mean, come on. this is bob iger this ain't beanbag

>> the company is suing the florida governor we'll have the latest on the longstanding feud with the company. plus, the woman who says donald trump raped her in a department store years ago takes the stand in her civil case against the former president we'll have some of that testimony. >> and the judge excoriates donald trump through his lawyers. >> yeah, testimony very, very sad. on capitol hill, house speaker kevin mccarthy notches a symbolic win with the passage of his debt limit plan, but the bill now seems likely to die in the senate we'll wellook at what's next ine fight to raise the debt ceiling. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, april 27th along with joe, willie and me, we have u.s. special correspondent for bbc news cat addy kay, and the host of "way too early," hostwhite house buru chief at "politico," jonathan

lemire a lot to get to. >> first off, donald trump says, if you want to get to 'em, talk about terminating the constitution, right? it's like, hey, let's own 'em. >> retribution. >> own the libs, 12 years. yeah, yeah, no, actually, that's not what the constitution says >> how it works. >> through the amendments, it doesn't work that way. but, yeah, so he just can't help himself. couple things to talk about. speaking of not being able to help himself, jonathan lemire and poor mike barnicle, our red sox .350 -- .500 >> yeah. >> the massive mountain of immediate mediocrity continues the knicks are in a strange, new land. >> it is a little disorienting the new oew york knicks won a playoff series last night for the first time in ten years, only the second time in a generation last time before that they won a

series was in 2001 it's been that long that the knicks -- they really ran the cavs out of their own gym. jalen brunson was great, the new signee, the free agent they picked up from dallas. they're moving on, john, top pla the heat, who upset the bucks in that series last night now, the bucks are -- listen, jimmy butler is amazing. here's the play, joe, at the end of regulation. miami down two with under 2 seconds left >> come on. >> inbound lob to jimmy butler from his back, puts it in to tie the game they go on to win in overtime. they defeat the number one seed milwaukee bucks. now, the knicks, instead of playing the bucks, play the miami heat, john knicks fans are feeling it right now. >> this is stunning. first of all, yes, the fact that the knicks are good. that's new not only are they good, they now have home-court advantage in the second round. >> yeah. >> i mean, it can't be overstated, what a big upset this is for the heat over the

bucks. the heat, eighth seed. milwaukee, the first seed. the best player, giannis jimmy butler, heroic 40 points plus two nights in a row, two big comeback. now, heat-knicks, a throwback to those '90s, late '90s series we need jeff van gundy to jump on the floor and grab alonzo mourning's leg remember. >> those games, joe, were 68-65, and there would be two fistfights in every game different era in the nba, but a lot of excitement in new york. >> a lot of excitement also, nobody sees this coming at home. >> what? >> we're about to talk sport. >> no. >> with katty kay. >> katty >> a lot of excitement in katty's household yesterday, as man city annihilated, annihilated arsenal.

arsenal was supposed to be on their way to winning the premier league man city said, not so fast yesterday, head-to-head matchup, your household had to be thrilled. >> so i was upstairs trying to write, and every now and again, i would hear these yells from downstairs somebody looked at me who was in the room with me, "do we need to check tom is okay? i was like, "no, no, that is a good sign. the yells would be repeated four times, we had the big yells. the sad news is my son is an arsenal supporter, so -- >> oh, no. >> house divided. >> it was tricky. >> city looking good for the prem, right? joe, they've got it. >> they actually do have it. i feel very sorry for your son and arsenal fans worldwide because this was theirs to blow. >> yeah. >> they've blown it. >> all right >> something, though, that we red sox fans don't have to worry about this year because we're going to end up .500.

>> red sox suck all the time. >> oh, my god. >> is that bad >> no! no, we never we don't say that word >> you don't >> we're great. >> okay. i'm sorry. >> we're great we are the best .500 team in baseball right now duran, 2 for 4 yesterday i'm sorry, i'm excited about this red sox team. yes, they're mediocre, but then again, they speak to those of us -- >> i was trying to participate. >> -- who walk through life mediocre. >> trying to get by, 81-81, joe. >> by the way -- >> okay. >> that's something. >> i'll take it. >> it is. >> usually, willie, the beginning of the next season, they go, now your 2018 world champions. they scroll it down. they're going to take what lemire just said, and they're going to scroll it next year, 81-81. just trying to get by. >> there's a nice symmetry to that by the way, with our two teams at the bottom of the a.l. east, it takes a lot of pressure off the season we can go enjoy it

we don't fworry about the playoffs we can make plans on the fall. we can go on our annual turning of the leaves tour we do through new england without worrying about the world series. >> you guys love doing that. >> we bike through new england a lot. >> all right. >> sometimes it gets kind of ugly, you know, when we're fighting about who is going to win and who is going to lose. >> don't worry about it. >> maybe this year, our trip up through burlington won't be as violent. >> apple picking. >> some people believe what you say on this show, right? >> kkatty. >> some people do believe you. >> by the way, if you look at our twitter feed, we will show you willie and me on a tandem bike from 2007. >> yes. >> actually going through vermont. >> yes. >> it is beautiful, beautiful shot >> talk about that trip a lot. >> okay. now to the news. "the new york times" has new reporting on fox's firing of tucker carlson two sources tell "the times" the day before the start of the dominion defamation trial

against the network, the fox board of directors and top executives learned about private messages sent by carlson that had been redacted in legal filings. according to the sources, the redacted material contained the highly offensive and crude remarks that went beyond the inflammatory, often racist comments of his primetime show, and anything disclosed in the l lead-up to the trial. >> can i -- go ahead this next part is so important. >> yeah. meanwhile, "the wall street journal" reports that in one of the redacted messages, carlson called a female senior executive a crude and misogynistic slur, like the worst one ever. several people with knowledge of fox's discussion told "the times" the messages were a catalyst for rupert and lachlan murdoch to sever ties with the host of their highest rated and highly profitable primetime program. >> katty, let me jump in here really quickly

you know, i saw a clip from this weekend, bill maher this past week he actually was reading some of the text messages, and he read the ones that came out where tucker carlson called the head of fox news, a woman, the c-word, which i noticed -- in the united states, you just don't say it it's a little different culturally in britain, but we won't get into that conversation but here, it is as bad as it gets i noticed that even in bill maher's hardened audience, there were, like, gasps throughout the crowd. i thought, my gosh, he's saying this this is out. this is shocking even to this crowd. i remember saying tome mika, i don't know if he's going to survive this she agreed.

>> two things. one, it is very shocking, and it was used in the context of his boss, which is a very senior executive at the company, which is incredibly disrespectful, rude, and dumb tactics if you work for that network. and i think it's an indication, or was an indication, to rupert and lachlan ughlin muryrrh -- ln murdoch that he was too big to be pushed out. that's never the case at a news network. also, it was the other messages that show the work environment and attitude that existed from car carlson downward most "me too," that environment is not acceptable anymore. we saw it with the departure of bill o'reilly having to go at fox. bullying of that kind of nature

is the sort of, you know, post "me too," post work environment that is also not allowed he was rude to his bosses and had an environment that was not acceptable r the decision was made that he had to go. >> on the bill maher show, he was calling another woman that in the texts, sidney powell. then we find out that he was also talking about his boss, suzanne scott. then the lawyers came to him and said, "hey, we think we have this redacted. he said, "i don't want it redacted that's how i feel about her. i want people to know how i feel about her. willie, for everybody out there, and, well, there are a few people out there, but some that are loyalists and trumpists who were shocked and stunned and deeply saddened and think this is part of some great conspiracy, there's not a corporation in america, there's not a company in america where a worker could say that about a female boss and survive.

not one. there's no conspiracy theory here this is just -- this is something that would literally get you fired anywhere in the united states. >> well, what's interesting, too, is the reporting immediately after we learned that tucker had been let go from fox was that this had nothing to do with the dominion settlement, that it wasn't about the $787 million they had to pay out. it may not have been what he was saying on the air, though i still think that was part of it, but that discovery that came out in that lawsuit, in that case, did ultimately, it appears according to all the sources, result in his firing it was everything that came to light around, john, this dominion case, all the discovery, the texts, the emails from tucker and others, that appears ultimately led to him being fired. >> yeah, a raft of emails and text messages, some of whom we don't know what was in there yet. fox knows, their lawyers know. we don't know. it became untenable. certainly, there is a belief there's other subplots here we

haven't learned yet. but to the point, these messages enough, it's enough to get you fired. just no. there might be more. tucker carlson made a little appearance last night. he tweeted a video, his first real words since, you know, his dismissal. he didn't have much to say in terms of news. he didn't address the fox situation. he said, you'll be hearing more from me soon, and argued for educated political debate, something like that. he made no remarks about his current predicament or dismissal, mika. >> i understand the word used in the text messages is similar to, like, one or two other words that you just don't use in america, let alone the american workplace. at the same time, women aren't babies that's not the reason. it can't be the only reason tucker carlson was fired when you look at all the other things he has said, also things on television that were stirred up in this lawsuit and are going to be stirred up in lawsuits to come

i think about even just, you know, blatant tie lye blatant ly 6th, which, you know, is as stunning as the word that was used. >> right. >> i think the focus on the slur against women, we're not babies. i think it's terrible. he's horrible to say that word, just horrible. but there were 20,000 -- i mean, that's an exaggeration -- but a lot of things that he said on the air that i find, and members of the journalistic community find, absolutely, like, an assault on our democracy >> right. >> so you kind of have to wonder, was just that the tipping point? >> yeah, i think so. i think it was a combination i think most of us would agree with this, it's been a combination of many things. >> too much. >> the texts that came out where he was basically ridiculing his audience by, you know, saying one thing on the air and saying something else off the air. >> yeah. >> the judgment, the lawsuit

coming up with producer that has something like 90 recorded messages i think that -- where she's alleging a lot of anti-semitic remarks, it's just an awful lot. >> huge. >> on top of that, you have somebody taking pride in throwing slurs at the person that runs the network. you know, that's -- that probably is the tipping point, but that's one of many, many things, i'm sure. >> we'll continue to follow this it is sort of an earthquake in tv news for sure but also sort of the impact on poll it canitics and what happe at fox and the lawsuit not only by the producer, abby grossberg, but, also, i think there's two others. >> it's a big story. mooving on now. the woman suing donald trump for sexual assault and defamation took the stand in her civil trial against the former

president. e. jean carroll described the encounter she says happened in a new york department store in the '90s, which trump says never happened nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett has more >> reporter: e. jean carroll taking the stand in a packed courtroom, telling a manhattan jury, quote, i'm here because donald trump raped me, and when i wrote about it, he said it didn't happen. it's a disturbing allegation the former president has always denied the long-time advice columnist told the jury of six men and three women, what began as a chance encounter at bergdorf goodman soon turned violent. she believes it happened in 1996 but can't say for sure what she does recall is it started with playful banter, as trump wanted her help buying a gift the two joked about trying on l lingerie he was pushing her against a wall she said, quote, i was pushing him back it was quite clear i didn't want anything else to happen.

then, she says, he assaulted her, an accusation she described before. >> i fought. it hurt. it was against my will. >> reporter: she confided in two friends when it happened one who advised her to go to the police the other said stay quiet. quote, he has 200 lawyers. he'll bury you carroll never went to the police, something trump's defense team hammered in opening statements tuesday instead, she filed a civil suit for battery last year using a new law that gives survivors of sexual assault a one-year window to file claims, even when the statute of limitations has passed she's also suing trump for defamation, pointing to this post on truth social last fall, where he called her story a hoax and a lie. other posts from trump calling the case a scam, drawing a rebuke from the judge presiding over the trial, warning trump's defense attorney, such comments are, quote, entirely inappropriate. >> nbc's laura jarrett with that report trump commented on the case yesterday before carroll took the stand, calling her

"ms. bergdorf goodman. on truth social, he called the allegations a,quote, made up scam, adding that it is a fraudulent story and witch hunt. the judge called the statement entirely inappropriate all right. >> let's talk about, also, willie, disney actually stepping forward against ron desantis they're going to sue because they believe he improperly used the power of state government to go after, you know, to go after disney like we've said before, doesn't make a lot of sense in the state of florida, and especially doesn't make a lot of sense right now if bob iger is on the other side. >> i think governor desantis is finding out this is a different animal now that bob iger is back running the company. the comment that governor desantis objected to from disney about that legislation last year

was from the previous ceo, who is no longer there remember, he's fighting disney, the largest private employer in the state. we'll have charts from steve rattner in a few minutes showing just how big an impact disney has on the state of florida. he picked this fight because he was -- he had his feelings hurt about one comment from the previous ceo about a piece of legislation. now, disney is, in fact, suing back at him, saying this isn't how it works the government can't step in against a private entity and defame them and do all the t things governor desantis is doing. there may be, in his private moments, joe, some regret, perhaps, from governor desantis, that he picked up this fight to win favor with some sliver of his supporters but really trying, in the process, to hurt his state and potentially his political chances down the road. >> no doubt about it katty kay, i mean, i don't mean to keep saying it, but, you know, you go up against the last

guy, that's one thing. you go up against bob iger, you're going to get -- you're going to get hurt politically. i think ron desantis needs to sue for peace as fast as possible. >> yeah. the donors are watching this and what's happened. i mean, between the six weeks abortion ban and going up against bob iger and disney, it's been devastating with ron desantis' donor fortunes donors who wanted to get on board with somebody who wasn't donald trump now saying, "we're going to hold off. he is looking less and less like somebody who is going to be the republican nominee, over a fight he can't win, in a state where disney employs thousands of people and brings in billions of dollars. none of it makes sense i agree, it'll be interesting to see what steve gives us in the charts, but the numbers don't work for him. >> yeah, the numbers don't work. jonathan lemire, this is, a

again -- he's gotten way over his head let me say it again, bob iger is going to make him look like a rookie he needs to get out of this thing. also, at some point, this is going to start costing him points in the state of florida disney, as steve is going to say, is the main economic driver of this state. it created modern florida. i know florida, and disney created modern florida i remember, i was a little kid when we heard about it coming. it came. they built it. the state hasn't been the same since. make no mistake about it, there's not a big debate in the state of florida, whether they love disney or not maybe guys eating cheetos, sitting in their underwear in their mother's basement, typing away on their blogs, on their, like, america online blogs

maybe there's that small subset. >> i think they like disney. >> compuserve. i think so but, you know what they do, is after they do that and get the cheetos dust all over themselves, you know, they're walking out, and one of the imperial guard uniforms, they go to disney. everybody likes disney. >> who doesn't go to disney? >> or they wear mandalorian outfits. this is not hard everybody in florida loves disney except ron desantis >> your credentials as a florida man on full display here, joe. thank you for that >> yes, you are a florida man. >> this is an unpopular battle, start to finish. i mean, outside of the sliver of perhaps desantis' most devoted fans who are just to -- anything he declares woke, that i going to fight this is an economic engine in florida. i know we're going to get to a little later how some of desantis' potential political opponents are capitalizing on

this, saying, hey, you don't want disney in florida, we'll take it in our state getting shots at desantis while doing so donald trump, nikki haley now, among those doing that this is something where she just looks small. to your point about bob iger, this is the big leagues, also a beloved american institution and economic driver for the state of florida. it's happening, this fight desantis won't let go, and we're seeing it and other things take a toll on poll numbers, seemingly by the day. >> you know, the thing is, willie has seen what a florida man i am. >> you are. >> he comes down, and we, of course, drive up -- we love the "star wars" stuff. >> and magic kingdom. >> we drive up in my dodson. i have three baby yoga figurines on my dashboard. it is cracking, but they cover it up. >> you wear the boba fett costume when we go out to dinner we have a great time, just the two of us, joe and willie

strolling through the park. >> we wanted to stay in the "star wars" hotel, but it cost too much >> still ahead. >> great shag carpet. nikki haley relishes in desantis's fight with disney, saying she'll proudly take the disney jobs in her state. >> will you go to disney with willie and me next time? >> nope. >> we have room in the backseat of the dodson. following the launch of the 2024 re-election campaign, those new remarks from the president are straight ahead also this morning, house speaker kevin mccarthy scores a win when it comes to the debt ceiling, escalating his standoff with the white house what will the white house do next you're watching "morning joe." look at that beautiful shot of the capitol. >> so beautiful. >> favorite building we'll be right back.

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that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. find your cfp® professional at letsmakeaplan.org. wow. look at new york city. i'll tell ya what, these are the days you know, willie and i long for 'em, the long bike rides. >> okay. >> on our tandem bike. >> thanks to former mayor blook be bloomberg, you can take a ride in new york city. >> we'll do that. >> half past the hour, cloudy day in new york city we have the details on the new lawsuit just filed by disney the company sued governor ron desantis yesterday, alleging desantis and other officials committed constitutional violations during a, quote, targeted campaign of government retaliation. >> sounds about right, actually. >> it came minutes after a board, which was appointed by the governor to oversee disney's district, voted to pass a resolution that transfers some

of walt disney world's self-governing power to the state. the federal civil suit argues desantis' actions are part of a, quote, relentless campaign to weaponize government power over the company. >> with us now, former treasury secretary. >> treasury secretary? >> official, the car czar, the guy who saved the car industry. >> yeah. >> but, you know, as important as that was, the next title, the most important. >> yes. >> "morning joe" economic analyst. you put that in there. >> steve rattner joins us. >> smoke it wherever you go. they love that title in china, steve, don't they? i love rattner's charts. give us a sweep of the whole big board if you will, t.j. >> good lord. >> you thought disney was a powerful brand, it's got nothing on rattner's charts. look at that. >> it's got nothing. >> nothing. >> whew, that's great. steve, take us through your charts this morning. >> sure. well, i think steve kornacki

would be jealous of my charts, though i can't draw them they're bigger than his anyway. >> it's true >> steve verse steve >> let's start with how important disney is. you guys talked a little about it at the top of the show. i'll put some numbers behind that for ya. disney is the third largest private employer in the state of florida, although the largest at a single site, which it has, of course, in orlando you can see that it has here about 75,000 employees at its parksin the orlando area it is said to be responsible for as many as 450,000 jobs in total in the area. also, besides the fact that it is such a big employer, it also actually pays relatively well. disney's minimum pay is $18 an hour walmart, $14 publix, $11. these are good jobs, reasonably good jobs. they're not, obviously, millionaires, but these are reasonably good jobs for all those people in the state of florida. so you wonder why desantis would

bite the hand that is, in effect, feeding him. it is also feeding him in terms of tourism disney in 2022 had -- i mean, florida had almost 140 million visitors, of which 50,000, roughly, we believe, went to disney world it is a huge, huge part of florida tourism. lastly, disney pays, not surprisingly, a huge amount of taxes. they pay $1.1 billion directly to the state of florida and to local communities in taxes again, by outside estimates, an oxford analytics study, the total tax revenues to state and local governments in florida from disney-related activities, $4.7 billion disney is a huge economic force in florida again, you wonder why desantis would take on his biggest economic engine. >> insanity. those people are republicans and democrats, and they may like him or not like him, but disney is the biggest driver of the economy in florida

steve, going to your next chart, this entire fight, at least governor desantis says it is anyway, is about this special district it's not apparently uncommon in florida, but disney has the biggest one. what is that exactly, and why does governor desantis want to take it away >> here's what the fight is about. in 1965, when disney came to florida, it said, we don't want it to be like l.a. where we have a park and don't control anything around it and we end up with a lot of seedy motels and fast food restaurants. they made a deal with the state of florida, which, as you say, is not uncommon, where they, in effect, control the 39 square mile area. this is the city of orlando, and this is disney they have a board, had a board, of five people that took care of all the water, the fire, the building codes, supervision, and they paid for it then desantis came along when he got mad at them and said, "we're going to take this away from you

and make it another city or county in the state of florida" then desantis realized he'd have to pay for all this stuff, so he backed off that and said, "i won't do that. instead, i'll appoint this board. i'm going to take over control of this district." he appointed a board then disney turned around and put a bunch of agreements in place before the board took effect, that essentially limited the board's ability to do anything that disney didn't want them to do then the board came along and essentially tried to void those agreements that's where the lawsuit came in disney said enough, and they sued them under the first amendment, basically saying that by going after disney because it had said some things about the don't say gay law, that violated their first amendment and they were entitled to take control. as you said, willie, this is not a unusual in florida the villages, a big retirement community that politicians regularly stop at, has a special district

the daytona speedway has a special district it is nothing all that extraordinary. disney was a great corporate citizen that desantis just decided he wanted to take on in a stupid fight be. >> interesting to know if governor desantis also wants to take away the special district privileges of the villages and daytona superspeedway. i suspect he would not last chart, steve, you talk about biting the hand that feeds you. it appears governor desantis is doing it even with his donors. disney has given to florida republicans. >> that's the other really strange thing here you might think of disney as a left-leaning kind of company, but, in fact, and for obvious good reasons from their business standpoint, they have been mostly giving their money to republicans. you can see going all the way back to 2002, all this red this is money that disney has given to florida republicans, both candidates and pacs this blue down here, the small blue bars down here, are money that disney has given to democrats.

just a few million dollars to democrats, and many millions of dollars to republicans, includinclude ing desantis we don't know exactly how much desantis got because a lot of the money went through pacs and things obviously, a beneficiary florida is controlled by republicans and has been for 20 years. the other amusing thing, in 2022, after this started under b the previous ceo, disney stopped the contributions. it is costing them on the political side as well as this terrible effect. taking on bob iger is not the smartest thing anyone has done bob is an incredibly not just capable executive, but has great kind of political skills basically, attacked desantis as being anti-business and turned the whole thing around and put it all on desantis, which i thought, particularly, was a

clever way to handle it. desantis, i think, has taken on more than he can bite off. >> no doubt aboutit. bob iger is such a successful businessman and also such a successful political figure. for years, he's had democrats and other people who want him to run as a democrat or as an independent for president or for governor or for any position, because, again, he's great at what he does yeah, far, far different steve rattner -- >> thank you, steve. >> -- as always, thank you so much you know, it is so interesting, katty. you have steve talking about the reason why disney, back in 1965, when they were setting this up in florida wanted to have this special direct because they didn't want seedy motels they didn't want fast food restaurants right next to their theme park all their other attractions. what does ron desantis say, he

might put a prison right next to disney >> yeah, i mean, it's the sort of, you know, poke in the eye of disney that is particularly unnecessary. what's going to happen to the tour tourists what does ron desantis think that does to families coming to the disney theme parks with their kids, if what they're driving past is some kind of maximum security prison on their way in it is not the most inviting route to go see your princess or mickey mouse, right? it just seep seems to make no s. understandably, you have nikki haley, chris christie saying, hey, you don't want disney we're very happy to welcome them we appropriate won't put a prison on the front door either. >> yeah. you wonder, i mean, this seems like he is shooting himself in the foot maybe he will go after formula one and the others it seems like political

malpractice. let's put it that way. here's what former south carolina governor and 2024 presidential candidate nikki haley had to say on fox news. >> as governor, i took a double digit unemployment state and turned it into an economic powerhouse businesses were my partners. if you take care of your businesses, take care of your economy, your economy takes care of the people and everyone wins. so that's the way we dealt with it we are -- south carolina was a very anti-woke state it still is. if disney would like to move their hundreds of thousands of jobs to south carolina and bring the billions of dollars with them, i'll let them know, i'll be happy to meet them in south carolina and introduce them to the governor and the legislature that would welcome it. >> haley later retweeted those remarks, adding in part this, disney, my home state will happily accept your 70,000 plus jobs if you want to leave florida. south carolina not woke, but we're not sanctimonious about it

either that is, jonathan lemire, a great approach let me say how proud i am of mika. >> no, i know. >> no, no, no. she knows that formula one is coming to miami. everybody is excited about that. of course mika knows that nascar is up in daytona she knows that but she's a step ahead of us at all times. when she said going after formula one, she's talking about, hey, okay, we've heard all these other things please don't go after formula one in miami they're very excited about formula one going to miami m. >> she has the race calendar on her desk. >> thanks, guys. >> she knew that was coming. >> exactly. >> yeah, this is what we were talking about earlier, how other republicans now are really painting desantis in this fight against disney as, first of all, anti-gop, that they're not supposed to be the party that takes on private enterprise and takes on big business. we've heard that from chris christie donald trump weighed in and took shots at this. now, nikki haley

let's give a little credit here. nikki haley may kick sideways, and we're still not sure what that means, but that tweet is clever sanctimonious, which is trump's nickname for desantis here perhaps it's a nice shot at the governor and also maybe a little nod to the former president, saying, hey, i could be your vp. that'd be okay i'm on your side on this one. >> could be. i've got to say, also, willie, i like, we're not woke, but we're also not sanctimonious about it either i've got to say, for 98% of americans that don't write newsletters, you know, every day about woke on this side or that side, the term has been used so much, it is meaningless in middle america meaningless. that actually, i thought that showed a light touch hey, not woke, but we're not sanctimonious either bring your jobs to us because

that's our job, is getting people to work in the state of south carolina not being sanctimonious and picking imaginary fights. >> crystallized how absurd this is, that you're threatening 70,000 jobs and all the business that comes through florida because your feelings were hurt by the previous ceo on one piece of legislation it is kind of mind boggling for somebody who wants to be president. we're hearing he may announce he'll run for president sometime next month, in the next few weeks here, that he is going to the mat with disney. he's signing a six-week abortion ban that will be devastating in a general election so the rollout, if this is the beginning of the rollout, not going well, to put it mildly. >> well, let me -- >> seems out of step. >> -- say one more thing he wanted to have open carry in the state of florida he wanted people to be able to strap ar-15s onto their backs when they go to publix, when they go to walmart, when they go to costco, when they go to little league games, when they

go, i don't know, to church, wherever they go it was actually a florida legislature who usually follows him wherever he goes, that said, no, no, no, we can't go quite that far crazy, just taking the most extreme positions, not understanding that what republicans want, what main street republicans want, what independents want, is a pro-business republican. they don't want the chaos. they don't want the nonsense they don't want the tweets they don't want the culture battles, the extreme culture battles. they want a mainstream, pro-business, pro-middle class, low tax, low spend, low regulation republican, without all the other garbage. why can't these people figure it out? i mean, maybe nikki haley has

figured it out, because that's certainly what the tweet sounded like. >> it was a good tweet we'll see. coming up, new fighting in sudan undermines a previously negotiated truce between the rival military group battling for control. we'll be joined by a u.s. combat veteran working to rescue americans still inside the country. plus, there is growing concern this morning over china's involvement in the war in ukraine nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons joins us with the latest that's next on "morning joe.

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ten minutes before the top of the hour. there are some in the u.s. intelligence community who are reportedly concerned by chinese

military activity in the middle east according to top secret documents obtained by "the washington post," american spy services detected construction at a suspected chinese military facility in the united arab emirates this past december. back in 2021, the uae announced it had stopped construction at the same facility after u.s. officials expressed concern that beijing intended to use it for military purposes. the trove of documents obtained by "the post" includes this map, which reportedly shows the uae facility as part of a larger campaign by beijing to build a global military network by 2030. defense officials say they will not allow the base to become operational because it could jeopardize sensitive military activity in the region "the post" notes, quote, the level of concern about china's actions in the uae varies among u.s. officials, with some

viewing the development as manageable and others seeing a significant threat that warrants more forceful pressure from the united states. there's also a lack of consensus about whether the uae has made a strategic decision to daeeply assign with china or maintain a balancing act that includes the united states, its longtime protector. >> there is, right now, sort of a battle between different people in the intel community with jake sullivan, national security adviser, bill burns at the cia, obviously not as concerned according to reports we'll see how that shakes out. right now, though, willie, there's just, i think, a growing concern, not only the united states but across the world, with china and china's expansionist plans. >> yeah, the middle east, you can add africa to that there's concern about its influence in africa and now

china becoming more involved in the war in ukraine sending an official to eastern europe to, quote, help preresol the ongoing crisis joining us now, chief international correspondent keir simmons. good morning what is china doing here >> reporter: willie, the headline, of course, is president xi's call with president zelenskyy, effectively putting china at the center of negotiations, for good or bad from president xi's perspective. let's just put this in context after secretary blinken canceled that trip to china over the spy balloon controversy, it's difficult for u.s. officials to even get chinese officials to pick up the phone. forget u.s. officials sitting down with russian officials. yet, what you have this morning is china preparing to send one of its most experienced russian experts, diplomat, to ukraine. this guy is 70 years old

li hui, a former ambassador to russia 1981, he was the second secretary to the chinese embassy in moscow. that was during soviet times, of course he becomes the first secretary spends some time in the chinese foreign ministry, again in the russian department he spent some time in kazakhstan for ten years, from 2009 to 2019, he's the chinese ambassador to russia 2019, president put ain awards i the russian medal of friendship. we have a photograph of the two of them, a putin gripping grin there. we spoke overnight to an academic who has known li hui for ten years. he describes him as a ru-- he ia russian academic he says, he is fluent in russian and reads russian classics he was an ambassador during crimea in 2014, always

supportive trying to solve problems this academic says it is the best possible choice he is very close to the president's chinese foreign minister, but he can pick up the phone to the russian security council. he says, i believe that he has actually traveled to ukraine several times. so what does that tell us? it's actually, frankly, potentially, a pretty clever move by president xi because what you have is a move that seems to reassure the europeans that the chinese are moving to try to help with ukraine, but sending a signal to the russians, we're sending your friend they're sending someone who the russians really love let me just tell you, read you a quote by li hui in 2017 when he was the ambassador there in moscow in this quote, he says, the chinese-russian relations of comprehensive strategic cooperation and partnership are the most important bilateral relations in the world and, moreover, the best relations

between big countries. so, again, li hui is deeply, over decades, considered to be a friend of russia, and he is the guy that president xi is sending to ukraine we don't know when he'll go. another caveat, president xi's hands, frankly, may have been forced by china's ambassador to france, who made those comments to french television questioning the sovereignty of former soviet states eastern european countries have been furious about that. it's nothing like china's position on territorial integrity, so, you know, he may -- beijing may have had to feel like they had to do something to wrestle back the agenda fundamentally, there is this fundamental question here, right? ukraine insists it wants its sovereign territory back russia insists it won't withdraw china has a challenge. again, it's now, frankly, after

these moves, at the center, or very much in the center of potential negotiations over ukraine in the future. >> all right nbc's keir simmons, thank you very much for your reporting and analysis this morning. >> greatly appreciate it katty kay, there are two ways to look at it i guess i'm always optimistic. if you're ever going to bring vladimir putin to the table and agree to a peace agreement, he's got to believe that he's got a friend in the room, that he's got an ally in the room who is telling him, you've got to bring this war to an end for your sake, for the sake of china. >> yeah, i mean, i'm interested in it from the other angle, as well what does this tell us about zelenskyy's thinking at the moment the fact that zelenskyy had this phone call with xi the fact that he's now sending a ukrainian ambassador to beijing. the fact he is going to receive this guy who keir was just telling about, who is very close too to moscow and have him come to ukraine, is this the beginning

of the ukrainians saying, okay, look, we are ready to start the negotiating process that, up until now, they've very much said they're not ready to do yet, until they get all their territory back again are they starting to want to put the parameters of something on the table? it is interesting to me that zelenskyy is making this outreach and that he is receiving somebody who he knows is this close to moscow. >> all right still ahead, we'll have a look at the headlines and morning papers across the country, including a state that's hiring hackers. we'll explain why. in our next hour, we'll be joined by senator angus king of maine. he's involved in a bipartisan push to force the supreme court to adopt a code of ethics. we'll talk to him about that and much more straight aadhe on "morning joe." and saved $652. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. with the money we saved, we thought we'd try electric unicycles. whoa! careful, babe!

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inside the day the music died ♪ >> that was really good. sounded good. >> that was fun. >> south korea's president thrilled the crowd at the white house last night, singing a little bit of "american pie," which he said is his favorite song that was nice. >> yeah. >> he was on tune. welcome back to "morning joe." it's thursday, april 27th. jonathan lemire, katty kay still with joe, willie and me. joining the conversation, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. former republican congressman, carlos corbello of florida he is an nbc news and msnbc political contributor. good to have you all with us this hour. >> mike barnicle, the always-exciting boston red sox now .500. >> oh, boy. >> you know, joe, you and your

love affair with duran and, you know, being upset by the boston red sox. 162 games. we play it every day the funny thing is, though, this morning, with that clip, you know, you turn on "american pie," turn it pay up in the car radio and it is 1970/'71, it's a memorable song the lyrics are filled with question marks and wonderment. it's a wonderful, wonderful song i just love that song. >> by the way, president biden gave the south korean president a guitar signed by don mclean. >> stop. >> no! >> right after he sang the song. he knew it was his favorite tune, broke it out what else is great about this state dinner, there was talk about is it going to be tense because of the document leak that came out, some of the things disclosed about spying on south korea. no, it wasn't. it was the opposite of tense they were up there singing "american pie" together on a signed guitar. >> how exciting. how exciting.

>> love it. >> you know, what mike barnicle said about "american pie," jonathan lemire, filled with question marks and wonderment, the same applies to duran and the red sox. >> oh, right back. >> will he make the cut-off throw? >> no. >> the guy is batting over .400. that's wonderment right there. >> mike tried desperately to change the subject, and you wouldn't let him back to the red sox, well done, joe. surrounded in enigma, you don't know what is going to happen he is hitting right now, joe again, it is one step forward, one step back. a win, a loss, .500. staying steady stayi ing steady trying to get by. >> again -- >> mediocrity. >> that's why the red sox are my team one step forward, one step back, just getting by. >> just getting by. >> the massive mountain of

mediocrity, go sox. >> right here. >> the banner next year, mike, you missed this, instead of unfurling a world series championship banner the first game of the year, jonathan lemire, when we unfurl it, what does the banner say? >> 81-81 just trying to get by. >> joe, i'm a miami guy, but i have my own connection to the red sox. mike lowell is my brother-in-law. >> whoa! >> all-time great guy. >> wait a minute. >> 2007 world series champion, wow. >> what? >> that's amazing. >> and world series mvp, yeah. >> i didn't see that coming. >> fantastic human being >> you've got to introduce me to him sometime. >> yeah. >> that's cool. >> joe would like that very much. >> let's have him on the show. have him on the show. >> come on >> let's do it. >> come on. >> i think we have a connection now. man, oh, man, what a way to

start the second hour. >> look at that. >> i'm kind of, like -- i'm actually taking my time getting to the news. >> for one day, i mean, i may do more than just get by. >> you're mediocre it's fine. during a joint press conference with the president of south korea yesterday, president biden addressed concerns about his age when it comes to his 2024 re-election bid here's some of what he had to say. >> with regard to age, i can't even say, i guess, how old i am. i can't even say the number. it doesn't register with me the only thing i can say is that one of the things that people are going to find out, they're going to see a race, and they're going to judge whether or not i have it or don't have it i respect them taking a hard look at it i'd take a hard look at it, as well i took a hard look at it before i decided to run i feel good. i feel excited about the prospects. i think we're on the verge of really turning the corner in a way we haven't in a long time.

i know you're tired of hearing me say we're in an inflection point, but we really are what happens in the next two, three, four years is going to determine what the next three, four decades look like i have never been more optimistic in my life about the possibilities of the united states. >> you know what he has a daytime job he is doing all right. >> that was -- >> he's looking good i'll tell ya what, there was a column in "the washington post" that really caught my eye by mark thiessen. this is what it says this voters choose between trump and biden, republicans won't like the returns mark writes, quote, as he announces his re-election campaign, president biden is extremely vulnerable according to nbc news polling, his disapproval at 54% a whopping 70% don't want him to run again. with those numbers, his campaign should be politically dead on arrival. here's the problem for republicans, which marc is a conservative, of course, if you follow his writing when he is talking to his own people, his own party, 60% of

voters also don't want donald trump to run again americans are sending a clear message to both parties. they want new candidates to choose from in 2024. so what happens? here's the key, what happens if voters are forced to choose between two candidates they don't want a "wall street journal" poll conducted by a pro-trump super pac pollster suggests the answer among voters who disapprove of trump and biden, biden leads trump by a massive 39 percentage points 54% to 15% >> whoa. >> 54% to 15%. as we say here every single morning, swing voters don't like trump. if they dislike biden, they dislike trump even more, thiessen writes. trump is biden's get out of jail free card. trump already cost the gop two elections. will it take a third for some to wake up to the fact that he is

political kryptonite mike barnicle, we talk about it every day. marc thiessen's column is dead on yeah, people may not be excited about joe biden. they may want somebody new maybe they want somebody who is not 80 plus. but they're going to take him when they go into the booth if the choice is between joe biden and donald trump this poll puts it in the most -- again, what we say every day, this poll puts into a data point. >> joe, you're right on the basis of what we're looking at, donald trump versus joe biden, joe biden is going to beat donald trump. he is going to beat him like a drum, actually, because of one guy much younger than both men, much younger than trump, much younger than joe biden a guy by the name of jack smith, the special counsel. he is -- i don't know how a guy goes to the country running for president of the united states who almost certainly will be

carrying federal obstruction of justice charges against him. plus a couple other charges probably but i don't know how you go to the country with that, with that hanging over your head forget all the other charges that he's going to have to face, including the one in new york that's going on now. we'll see what happens with that but i don't know how the weight of what he's done to this country in the past, federal indictments involved, how do you go to the country and win the presidency i don't see it. >> eddie, long campaign ahead. we should be weary counting out donald trump hopefully everyone learned their lesson, but this is not 2016 or 2020 joe biden has a record to run on since the last presidential election, former president trump has staged an attempted coup against the government the roe versus wade was overturned at the supreme court. there's so many differences to go along with what mike said one indictment and perhaps more coming for the former president. >> there's the overall unease about the state of our democracy

and the actors that placed uggs in that position a head-to-head battle between biden and trump, we should put our bets on biden, i think, because of the general worry we don't know if trump is going to make it out of the primary, given all -- some people do -- given all the weight, the legal troubles he is in. we also need to note there is a generational unease here i mean, these are -- the baby boomers won't move out of the way. the folks before them won't move out of the way these young folks, as we see in tennessee and wisconsin, across the country, are champing at the bit to try to figure out a different way in which we can go about being in this country. >> poll after poll shows that there is an unease about the age of both candidates. >> right. >> it's not just president biden. it's donald trump, who is only a few years younger. look, the white house, they know, age is an issue in the campaign again, they point to trump, as well, and his, at times, shall we say, erratic behavior let's get back to the poll for a second about this idea of voters who disapprove of both candidates, who aren't thrilled. it's easy to dismiss that, like,

oh, who cares, but that matters. let's go back to 2016 for a second there was a swath of voters in 2016 who didn't like donald trump or hillary clinton both candidates had high unfavorability numbers on election day, the majority of the voters who didn't like both broke for trump, and that sort of made a difference in this case, it seems the majority of the voters who don't like either are going to break pretty hard for biden. also, the poll says to me, considering how few of them would vote for trump, it speaks to the intensity of that dislike for trump. those voters probably aren't going to change their minds. >> that's right, jonathan. this theory has been tested twice now with trump and biden of course, we have the 2020 election, but in 2022, what is typically a referendum on the president, donald trump decided to insert himself and to make the election a choice between him and joe biden. again, especially in a lot of swing states in all the swing states, even

some of the congressional swing districts, biden and his candidates ended up beating trump and his candidates so we know what this looks like. i will say, with so many americans dissatisfied with the two main choices, what appears are going to be the two main choices, we do have to watch for third party candidacies. not because they're necessarily going to win, but could a third party candidate garner enough votes to spoil the election for one candidate or the other that's something to watch. i could see young people saying, you know what, enough of these two guys we're going to choose someone else i can see hispanic voters and others looking for that third option >> all right joining us now, independent senator angus king of maine. he is a member of the intelligence and the armed services committees, and there's a lot to talk with the senator about today. >> yeah, senator, i want to get to -- first, i want to start, because you are an independent you caucus with the democrats, but you come from a state that's split. you had a couple districts, one

republican, one democratic jump in on the conversation, if you will, on these people that don't want trump or biden to run, but they overwhelmingly, when they have to break, they break biden's way. are you seeing an exhaustion in some of the more pro trump areas of the state of maine, or do you think he's still just as strong as he was in 2016? >> well, first, i want to offer a little therapy to you guys with regard to the red sox >> we need it. >> i can't resist that. >> oh. >> just know that somewhere in the universe, it is 2004, and dave roberts is about to steal second >> i love that. >> willie, did you get that? >> make joe tfeel so good right now. thank you, angus. >> it'll help during the difficult period yeah, you'll get my bill. >> willie, did that help >> i canceled my summer trip to bar harbor how is that? >> no, oh, my god!

>> those red sox. >> senator, let's try that again. >> sure. >> what are you picking up as far as -- because we talk about it every day, independent swing voters i always talk about the suburbs of atlanta, man, they've broken hard against donald trump. the suburbs of philly, they're never going back to donald trump. i'm curious if you're seeing it even in states like maine, that has a pretty pro trump area. >> well, i haven't seen any polling. i have to tell you, my wife and i do an rv trip every fall through rural maine, particularly northern maine. boy, in '16 and '20, you sure did see a lot of trump signs a real political symbol is homemade signs when you see homemade signs in front of people's houses, that tells you something. >> yes. >> i don't really have a feel for that, joe. i do think that donald trump's base has shrunk. how much it's really hard to tell that "wall street journal" poll is pretty strong stuff

>> yeah. talk to me about, you're working with lisa murkowski, another independent who caucuses with the republicans, about requiring the supreme court -- this makes sense to me -- the supreme court to create a code of conduct. i understand about the separations of power, but at the same time, congress certainly has a say in this constitutionally. >> well, lisa and i's bill is simple it's three pages long, and it doesn't prescribe what the code of conduct should be it just says, adapt one, make it public, put it on the website, and tell us how it is being followed and enforced within the court. this is not a radical idea every judge in the country, except for these nine, have to follow a code of conduct every judge in maine, i went back and read the canons, every federal judge except the supreme

court. to me, it's sort of sad we're even having this discussion. listen, i'm doing this because i'm an institutionalist. i hate to see the supreme court wounding itself, and that's what it is doing right now. the approval rating of the supreme court is at the lowest level, i think, in history, and i don't understand why justice roberts isn't saying, yeah, this is something we should do, sjust to reassure the public it doesn't make any sense to me. >> senator, as you said, chief justice roberts declined to appear at the ethics hearing in the senate if he were to sit before you, though, what do you think are the important questions he should answer, that clarence thomas should answer, for that matter >> well, i agree with the chief justice. i'm reluctant to say the chief justice should appear before a congressional committee. that's only happened once or twice in american history. i do think there are issues of separation of power. on the other hand, he wrote this long lawyerly letter with three

pages, and to me the key phrase was, we'll flollow the substanc of the rules no, it should be, we'll follow the rule, and here's what they are. he could have said, yes, we're going to adopt a code of ethics, or they don't even have to do much drafting, they could do it in a weekend just take the existing canon of ethics for federal judges and apply it to themselves, about disclosure here's the key phrase, though, and i remember learning this many years ago the key phrase for judges is that judges should avoid impropriety and the appearance of impropriety why is that so important because the courts don't have police force they don't have armies they rest upon their moral authority by the trust that people put in them as an institution. that is what is declining. i can't imagine that justice roberts wants his legacy to be a catastrophic decline in public

support and the concept of the support for the united states supreme court. that's why this is -- ought to be easy. >> senator king, we want to turn to the debt ceiling. the house republicans finally passed their budget this week. we know the president has released his those two sides, though, aren't talking. no negotiations yet, and the clock is obviously ticking there's some estimates the country may hit the ceiling by june, which is five or six weeks away the senate has not acted yet what role can your chamber step in here to try to bridge this divide >> well, the first thing i want to say is how deeply touch ed i am by the concern of the republicans for the debt and the deficit. it is really moving, particularly because they raise the debt ceiling three times without much of a peep during the trump administration i'll bet if you go back and look at the record, pretty much everyone that was there then voted for the trump tax cuts for

the wealthy and corporations, that put a $2 trillion add onto the deficit. so, you know, this is sort of new religion here. the other piece that bothered me, i saw a quote yesterday, one of their leaders said, we're not going to give joe biden a blank check. now, that betrays either a gross misunderstanding of what this is all about or deliberate effort to mislead people. this isn't a check for future spending this is paying our bills that's what this is all about. it's like you get your credit card bill at the end of the month and say, i'll square up my finances by not paying this bill these are for expenses that have already been incurred. that's what is really frus frustrating about this the bill, obviously, isn't going to go anywhere in the senate here's something really interesting that i learned digging into this. they're big on, you know, rolling back expenditures. they say no defense cuts, no

social security, no medicare that's fine. but that means a 20% plus cut in everything else. if you look at federal discretionary spending today, go back to 2010, today, it is below the 2010 level when you adjust for inflation. i find that really amazing in other words, we're pretty much in line with where the country was 15 or 20 years ago the other thing about what they proposed is, there weren't any details. when you talk about a 20% cut in domestic spending, where is that going to occur is itrder guards is it air traffic controllers? is it veterans health care is it teachers you know, all of those things, they have to necessarily be on the table. it's disingenuous to say, generally, we're going to make this cut and figure out later where the cut comes. it's not going to go anywhere in the senate the discussion should be around

the budget that's where you debate priorities and spending levels don't use the full faith and credit of the u.s. and threaten to take us into a financial catastrophe to try to lever something you ought to be arguing about when we get to the budget i worry, to be honest with you, that some of these people either don't know what the catastrophe will look like, or they're okay with it, then they're going to blame it on joe biden. >> senator, i just want to go back to the legislation that you're hoping to introduce, requiring supreme court justices to have this code of conduct i mean, the point is, right, that these judges are not to be exposed. they're supposed to keep their objectivity clean, really, and not have it impacted by the lore of money and gifts and favors. if you look at clarence thomas and then you add it -- and i know this is an extra -- but his

wife and her text messages to mark me dadows, i mean, there ae serious concerns about this supreme court justice taking gifts that are in the value of hundreds of thousands of dollars and houses and a lifestyle, really, created by a republican donor. i just wonder if this legislation goes through, if you can meet your goal here, can it retroactively apply to clarence thomas, so questions can be asked and answered >> i do think there does need to be more disclosure, and it's a shame a pro publica journalistic organization had to dig out matters that should have been disclosed. >> yeah. >> i don't see this as retroactive. it's not aimed at clarence thomas clarence thomas' activities certainly have told us why we need to do this, but it's really forward looking. again, the supreme court has

enormous power, and they're there for life and there have to be some checks the check here is transparency >> yeah. >> the ancient question of political science is -- who will guard the guardians in this case, nobody is guarding the guardians. all we're saying is, put something out there that the public can see that you're going to abide by and a mechanism so the public can see whether you are abiding by it. we're not imposing rules we're saying adopt your own rules. you know, justice roberts writes this long, lawyerly piece, and i finished reading it and me thinks he doth protest too much. why are they resisting >> interesting senator angus king of maine, thank you very much for being on this morning we appreciate it thank you for the therapy for joe. >> yeah, always here to help. >> appreciate it

>> all right carlos, we want your take on the lawsuit filed yesterday by disney the company sued governor december nmesantis yesterday, a desantis and other officials committed constitutional violations during a, quote, targeted campaign of government retaliation. it came minutes after a board, which was appointed by the governor to oversee disney's district, voted to pass a resolution that transfers some of walt disney world's self-governing power to the state. the federal civil suit argues desantis' actions are part of a, quote, relentless campaign to weaponize government power over the company. what do you make of the governor's focus and obsession on disney? i'm not surprised that this lawsuit has taken place. it's sort of checkmate. >> well, mika, it's clear that the governor's opponents, whether it's donald trump or disney, sense some weakness, and they're going on offense

a lot of people here were wondering how long it would take for disney to react, to speak up it's clear that bob iger isn't going to take this anymore look, we'll see what happens with this lawsuit. it isn't surprising because, certainly, the governor, even in his public statements, has kind of suggested that this is retribution to disney for speaking out against one of his legislative initiatives. but, plolitically, i think this is also starting to hurt him at first, a lot of conservatives thought the fight with disney was worthwhile, but it's starting to come across as petty, as very personal. i think it's actually hurting him. we've seen his polling numbers slide. i mean, clearly, governor desantis needs a reset and digging down, doubling down on this fight with disney doesn't seem like it is going to do it for him. >> it seems to me, mika, that, you know, this politics of grievance has a limit.

there's a sense in which we know that desantis has a rice, paper thin skin that leads to him behaving in the way he behaves, but it seems that his entire campaign, his entire political identity, is rooted in grievance. a kind of sense of executing this battle against wokeness and the like this battle against disney seems to me like he's run up against the wall it also demonstrate, i think for democrats, how you fight back against these cultural warriors. you're just as aggressive as they are pop them back in the mouth when they try to pop you in yours, it seems to me. >> yeah, you just wonder, does he know this doesn't work in the general? it seems curious, his decisions. former congressman and mike lowell's brother-in-law, carlos occu , thank you very much. tell mike we'd love to have him on. we'll talk to another member of congress when chris coons joins the conversation he has a new role, the national

co-chair for president biden's newly launched 2024 campaign plus, new reporting about the behind the scenes decisionmaking that took place before tucker carlson's firing from fox news. also this morning, a texas woman who was denied an emergency abortion criticizes the state's two republican senators during a judiciary committee hearing. we'll show you what she had to say to lawmakers you're watching "morning joe." we'lbel right back. n that makes you feel lighter than air? ♪ no matter where you are... when it crosses your path... you'll feel compelled to take to the road and see where it leads. ♪ the first step begins at the lincoln spring sales event. going on now, for a limited time. somedays, i cover up because of my moderate

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to workouts you were made to remember some days forever. and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. half past the hour a woman suing the state of texas over the abortion laws detailed her traumatic experience at a judiciary hearing yesterday and called out her state's lawmakers. take a look. >> we've heard a lot today about the mental trauma and the negative, harmful effects on a

person's psychological well-being after they have an abortion, supposedly i'm curious why that's not relevant for me, as well, because i wasn't permitted to have an abortion the trauma and the ptsd and the depression that i have dealt with in the eight months since this happened to me is paralyzing on top of that, i am still struggling to have children, and i wanted to address my senators, cruz and cornyn, neither of whom, regrettably, are in the room right now, but i would like for them to know that what happened to me, i think most people in this room would agree, was horrific but it's a direct result of the policies that they support i nearly died on their watch what happened to me was

horrible, but i am one of many quite frankly, i'm lucky i'm lucky that i have a husband that could take me to the hospital i don't have other children that i had to worry about finding health care for. i have a job that was understanding, that allowed me to grieve for three days as i waited to almost die what about all of the women that don't have those same opportunities, that don't have access to health care, that don't have health insurance, that don't have a partner? what about them? >> i mean, that's it right there. that's it right there. she's going to struggle to have children some women who go through this can't. she nearly died because she couldn't get the termination that she needed. she had to go through unbearable pain, sepsis, in order to finally get the health care she needs. and, yeah, senators cruz and

cornyn, it would have been nice if you were there to hear that story so you could learn about women's health care, about why the procedures that are called abortion, also termination, also other versions of it that require medicines like mifepristone, why that is under the umbrella of a woman's health, of saving her life and you're not man enough to come to this hearing not in the room? they weren't in the room imagine, that's who she wanted to talk to, her senator. she says she was told under texas law she could not terminate her pregnancy until she was sick enough that the hospital's board would allow it. a board had to vote, really? she was only given an abortion after developing sepsis and nearly dying, so think about that

katty kay, this is where we are. we keep having to explain this i don't know what the republican version of abortion is, but it is not based on reality. if this was their wife or their daughter or their sister, they would not want her to go through this that's the hypocrisy >> yeah, i mean, thank you to amanda and to the other women who have spoken up about circumstances that they've had that have been similar, where they have had life-threatening conditions and weren't able to get the treatment they needed because politicians made a decision that they wanted to ban this procedure, which is needed not just because some women want to terminate a pregnancy voluntarily, but because some women have complications with their pregnancies that will kill them you can die of sepsis. >> yes. >> as she said, her life was in their hands. it can kill you. she couldn't get the treatment she needed

when the dobbs ruling was first passed, i remember having conversations with republican lawmakers who supported what the supreme court had done in overturning roe v. wade. they said to me, but this won't happen because there are provisions that have been made it's clear it should never impact somebody whose life is in danger in this way. but, clearly, those provisions aren't enough. they are not protecting these women. they're either too complicated or the doctors are too afraid of getting on the wrong side of the law, or maybe the provisions don't actually exist we were told they do, but they don't really exist now, you're getting woman after woman in state after state saying, "i had a complication with my pregnancy. i had a life-threatening condition. i was in incredible pain." we had this on the program last week, mika the mental health conditions of carrying a fetus that you know is not going to live that you have to carry to term i mean, it's -- i'm so glad these women are speaking out,

and it takes a lot of courage to do so. >> in this case, can you imagine a hospital board deciding, hmm, is she sick enough let's wait until she gets a littlesicker like, what that's not -- that is not the oath coming up, the rise of america's christian right and the history that led to its alignment with donald trump. our next guest takes us inside the evangelical movement that he says failed the generation "morning joe" will be right back i brought in ensure max protein, with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. uh... here i'll take that. ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar and nutrients for immune health.

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41 past the hour in "testimony inside the evangelical movement that failed a generation," yahoo! news chief national correspondent john ward details growing up inside the evangelical christian bubble he uses those experiences to explain how he believes the

people he grew up with could be won over by right-wing politicians and media figures based on their religious upbringing in one section, ward details the insurrection at the capitol. quote, january 6th made it clear some in the country were turning away from democracy. if they didn't think they could be the dominant group in a pluralistic nation of many religious and racial identities, they decided maybe freedom wasn't so great after all and could be discarded for security. jon ward joins us now. thank you very much for joining us this morning. >> jon, thanks so much i grew up in an evangelical church, southern baptist churp churches across the south. we'd go to church two, three nights a week. people are like, oh, that's so -- no, we liked it. all my friends were there. it was a great upbringing.

a great foundation that, all these years later like you, i look around and don't recognize so much. you said something you picked three things out that have always made me curious. one is, that within our communities, your community and my community, there's always been this sense of victimhood. there's been this inferiority complex. there's been -- you talk about a narrative of national restoration that comes out of the reaction to the 1960s. i've never understood the victimhood, constant victimhood. i'll just speak like evangelicals speak to each other. if you believe, then you're in on the greatest thing ever you have the greatest story ever told you've been taught the greatest story, the most extraordinary story ever told.

why do you have to wallow in qanon conspiracy theories? what are they compensating for i say "they" now, because i don't understand people from my own tribe. what are they trying to compensate for why do they have to bathe themselves in lies every day about qanon conspiracy theories, election conspiracy theories, on and on and on. why? >> yeah, one of the most painful things for me, i think, in 2020 was seeing certainty about things that were, you know, lies that was, i think -- i try to tell the story through my own life, of growing up in a world in which we were pretty isolated from reality in a lot of ways. we were so far inside our church bubble, that i think we became vulnerable to manipulation we were really in that church bubble for a lot of reasons.

i unpack a lot of it, but we were busy getting blessed, seeking, you know, emotional experiences in church, learning how to love one another in our personal relationship. there was not a lot of focus on, in the evangelical church i grew up in, or i think evangelicalism writ large, on how to be a good public citizen it's public character versus private character. so i think, you know, there's a lot of fear you've eluded to in evangelicalism people have been telling evangelical for decades that, you know, christianity is on the verge of extinction. i thinkbecause of that lack of stepping out of that church bubble, that lack of becoming a stakeholder in the public conversation, i think there's been more vulnerability to believe that sort of thing >> yeah, but the sad, the bitter irony is, that the actions of the past five, six, seven years have only pushed more people

away from the evangelical community. there's just this constant fear of the world intruding on the church, it is actually the church and its obsession with pol politics, where people have warped i say this, and it freaks people out that i grew up with, but, you know, there's, like, this singular obsession on abortion in evangelical churches i go to. when i say this, it freaks people out southern baptists were pro choice until jerry fauldwell who told them to be pro life in 1980 suddenly, this becomes the sole test of whether you're a christian or not this politicalization has completely warped and twisted

modern christianity, what the evangelical church believed for decades, for a century now, they're sitting around wondering, why are people leaving our churches >> yeah, i told a story about how my parents were both raised in main line religions, then became saved in the jesus movement my father was an activist against abortion abortion was fundamental to our political world view, but we also thought of politics as dirty and below us and of the world. so, again, we didn't really engage much in politics or think about it that meant that our entire political world view, to the extent we had one, was shaped through abortion so there's that lack of investment in developing a more sophisticated, more robust political way of thinking and engaging i personally think it's a failure to obey jesus' command to love god with all your mind

and to love your neighbor. >> again, just because people don't want to listen when i start talking about the realities of the church and the evangelical church, i have a lot of great friends who were pro life, who see that as the center of their political world view. totally get it totally legitimate that's what they believe totally get it at the same time, at the same time, that's not the center of jesus' teachings it wasn't even in jesus' teaching people usually have to grasp for old testament scripture here or there, talking about jeremiah to justify it again, it's just bizarre that i guess my grandmom and my mom and my dad before 1980 weren't christians based on jerry falwell's world that we now live in i want to also ask you, you look

at a lot of the christian nationalism. how can there be so much hatred? if you grew up in an evangelical church, i grew up in an eva evangelical church, i don't know what you were taught in your church in mine, it was the sermon on the mount. it was blessed are the peacemakers. it was blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy. forgive, not seven times. >> it's all how you treat people. >> forgive 70 times 7 times. the mercy you show others will be the mercy that will be shown to you by god. that moment on the cross where jesus is being mocked by one criminal another criminal says, "don't mock him he's done nothing wrong. jesus says, "i tell you the truth, at this very day, you will be with me in paradise. the idea that we're all sinners. we're saved by grace it's an extraordinary faith. why so much hatred for people who don't seem to have read the

red letters in the gospels >> well, i think there's a lot of, you know, hatred out there, and i don't think evangelicals are the only group guilty of it these days when we talk about christian nationalism, though, i just think that there, again, has been a lack of meaningful engagement with how we apply our faith to politics. it's a, i think, fear-based way of thinking about it and i tell the story in my book of kind of two archetypes. one would be a type of evangelical who stays away from politics, told through the story of one of my former pastors. the other is another archetype, which is a leader who is now a part of what's called the new n religion i just think that there's been

this mode of talking about america as the kingdom of god which i have talked about on this program before that confuses what is ultimately meaningful with temporal things. of course we care about our country but our faith does not rise or fall with the rise and fall of america. >> eddie, jesus just again freaks people out because things have become so twisted regarding the church jesus doesn't care about your politics he cares about your soul and how you treat other people yeah we are all sinners we all mess up every day but it is about forgiving and moving forward and not about who will

win the next midterm it's just not. >> absolutely. the fact that we are sinners doesn't make us irredeemable that is the condition for being otherwise, of being saved. it is really important that we situate john's thesis. there's a sense of christ in culture and there's a notion of christ culture and american christians stand over and against a secularism world that gets then kind of morphed into a political movement and we have to see that in relation to the 1960s, the idea of desegregating, banning school prayer, banning abortions.

it is bound up in the culture wars there's a wonderful, complex narrative to tell to give john's work a complex political backdrop to understand this. >> john -- >> go ahead. >> yeah. neber is someone who i have begun to engage with more. this is my story of disentangling the things that i grew up with i think one thing that bothers more conservative evangelicals i have heard that i am too sure of myself but what i critique is certainty. i learn as i go. struggling the way forward my critique is that the building is compromised and i have spent a large degree of the couple of

years excavating the foundations of my life and faith understanding where i got to where i am and evangelicalism. my only real invitation to conservative religious folks is to engage in that same work of examining the foundations and the history because i think a lot of times evangelicals have a tendency to think that the views are hatched out of eternity or handed down on tablets rather than being formed over time by culture and politics. >> i want to ask you about the question of character. a disorienting piece of the seven years is looking the other way particularly about donald trump. talking about the indictment in manhattan. the question there was a man

alleged to have paid off a porn star and evangelicals say we're electing a president not a saint why what about the arguments and the lectures about character and kindness when did that fall away for some evangelicals >> clearly during trump. i think that's a source of a lot of concern for a lot of evangelicals people who grew up like me personally, i felt like the character concerns were part of the problem but didn't point to the ultimate issue with trump which in 2016 i was emailing my family and writing public to some degree about showing a

disregard for our constitutional democratic structure he was encouraging the lawlessness spirit to be lawless in practice. that would provoke counter reactions and counter reactions. i saw at the time a threat to the basic social democratic order. i think he made clear that he was serious about that in the aftermath of the 2020 election and january 6 my critique is not really about personal character first and foremost it is about the way that his assault on democracy and his assault on truth understcuts the common good. it means working toward the common good of all and not just for your own group. >> the book is titled

"testimony." jon ward, thank you very much. thank you for writing the book and great to have you on this morning. >> thank you for having me. still ahead, digging into a proposal on capitol hill that could bring strict limits to social media for children and teens. also ahead, mike pence a step closer to giving testimony to the grand jury on the insurrection we'll have an update in that case ahead on "morning joe." was legendary. they just piled it on. roast beef, ham, oven roasted turkey. all on the subway club. three peat - that's great. three meat - that's epic. the subway series. the greatest menu of all time. sometimes, the lows of bipolar depression feel darkest before dawn. three peat - that's great. three meat - that's epic. with caplyta, there's a chance to let the light shine through.

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times on his social media platform criticizing ron desantis and commenting on the civil trial accusing him of sexual assault all right. welcome back to "morning joe." >> i mean, you actually thought -- willie -- >> it is thursday, april 27th. >> she thinks my birthday is in august. >> starts with a "a. >> april 9th my brother is the 6th. >> she is not real sure about that. >> is that a number? >> it is not a big deal. seriously? >> i remember mine. >> madeline albright used to have to call to remonday her - >> march 28th. >> at the funeral she whispered to me, tell me your birthday why?

it is the only way she will remember it. she would say tomorrow is joe's birthday. >> that's why i'm at a loss. >> forgets birthdays it happens. >> get that in the outlook calendar every year we can pop that listen there are a lot of things to hit donald trump on. i don't always wish my wife happy birthday on social media. >> i post my baby goats. >> she is serious about the goats, willie. >> how many? how many are we up to? how many goats >> well, it is two-ish two right now. >> already pushing toward three. >> okay. joe, you have lost any control which you would say you have

never had. >> never had. >> so cute. >> all the chickens. >> feed them with the bottle. >> they grew a line at the goats. she just got the john deere and drove right over did fence and got the goetds. >> i did. >> don't they take care of the grass? >> useful. this is the thing i will post as a service that people understand that they are fabulous. >> i won't be with the push mower like michael dukakis. >> what's the name >> one is sprout. >> jacob >> and then -- okay. >> and then sprout >> there's a third >> who's the third >> jacob and sprout now. a new legal set back for --

former president trump this morning has a legal setback to deal the appeals court stopped the appeal to stop mike pence from testify for the grand jury on the january 6 insurrection the court's refusal to block the subpoena yesterday comes after trump filed an emergency motion to halt a lower court decision to order pence to testify. they argued executive privilege. pence fought the subpoena. arguing he was acting as president of the senate on january 6. he has since agreed to testify trump can appeal to the supreme court. a spokesperson did not respond to a request for comment. >> he will never win the supreme court has been about as straightforward and tough on all of trump's post-election

claims and no indication that they would let mike pence hide. >> they haven't bought the executive privilege argument they haven't bought the argument that he was speaker of the senate at the time and has a speaking privilege so it doesn't seem there's any -- i guess a question of time and whether they can drag this out potentially which is what trump's playbook has been. you delay and appeal to the moment where it is the least political impact on him. >> we got new polling in to us from emmerson college showing donald trump with a growing and commanding lead over florida governor ron desantis who has we reported is expected to jump into the race next month trump leads according to the poll 62% to 16% over ron desantis with mike pence with 7%

of the votes there joe, another thing that shifted, is that the argument for ron desantis has been he has a better shot to beat joe biden. in this head to head hypothetical matchup you have now donald trump closer to joe biden than you have ron desantis so one poll, 18 months out clearly the movement is toward donald trump arne away from ron desantis. >> >> it is but donald trump had the field to himself i guess the question, jonathan, what happens if ron desantis does step out. if he does step out in the middle of may i think we'll see this race tightening up. i just -- why has it taken him so long? if you make the argument i have to stay here until the end of

session that's fine but like when you are in japan and not going to ft. lauderdale when there's flooding there and seem wildly disengaged from your job in tallahassee there are people, governors, who run for president. i wouldn't be knocking him if that's what he was doing do two things at once. why has he waited so long? he's given donald trump a massive head start i suspect again very early at this point in 2008 we were all talking about how hillary clinton was going to be facing rudy giuliani -- 2007 i mean proving once again just like the red sox. i bat about .500

i'm fine with it. >> no! >> it is too early but you have to ask ron desantis's political judgment. >> being a governor is a great launching pad to run for president. >> it is. >> desantis has fouled this opportunity up he said he wants to wait for the state legislative session to end and needed to get a law changed in florida to allow a person with an office to run for another one. that will happen that won't be an issue she has turned the back on florida except for the fight with disney. he ignored ft. lauderdale. he is in jurs right now as we speak. he is not there in tallahassee and tending to the peoples' business when he jumps in that will be a moment, perhaps an important

moment to try to change the narrative. he will have to have take shots at trump and regain the sense that he is the boast alternative to trump there's no question a sense in republican circles that i talk to each day in washington and the country a sense of inevitability about donald trump that it is going to be him again. there's game changing events that could impact that but at least at this moment all momentum is with trump. >> yeah. we talked before about future indictments and talking about jack smith for whatever reason you look at polls. you look at polls and people can understand it because they hear donald trump telling a republican supporter, a

secretary of state rigged this election for me. the georgia case is the one that actually seems to have the greatest impact with voters. documents case i don't know how much impact that will have considering joe biden, mike pence and even though there's the obstruction that georgia case, the phone call that i think will have a praet significant impact. >> what we know about that is that there will be an outcome this summer so the timing i agree with you could be praet tougher for donald trump joining us is chris coons of dell care, a member of the foreign relations and jushs committee and national co-chair of joe biden's re-election campaign up and running now. >> running

thank you for being with us. mika excited about the president of south korea singing - >> i liked it. >> your comments on that >> that was a wonderful state dinner and president yoon showed the agility as a national leader president biden didn't just give him a signed guitar from don mclain for part of "american pie" they signed an understanding about america standing by south korea in the face of north korea's increasing nuclear threats so president biden's committed to deploy a nuclear arms submarine to visit south korea first time in this years. this is the first state dinner by a head of state in 12 years south korean companies have announced billions of dollars of

new investment in the united states some of it caused by the inflation reduction act and a good platform for president biden to remind people that so many bills that he signed into laure starting american manufacturing, reducing prescription drug prices, dealing with mental health and background checks. president biden has a strong platform to run on and as president yoon addresses joint session of congress will be reminded he strengthened the important network of alliances around the world standing up to russia and something that sometimes goes overlooked is how strongly president biden led pulling together the allies like japan and south korea delivering the groundwork for a strong response

to china in the indo pacific. >> a challenge of the united states faces is with its ally ukraine. and the war against russia suppose dlid we hear repeatedly there's a new offensive that the ukrainian army will undertake. does it concern you that ukraine suffered such losses as have the russians but the ukrainians are looking at a smaller military manpower pool. what happens if they run out of young men to fight the war >> you raise a great question. a casual saying is not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog and for the first year of this war that is true on the field. russia is fielding forcibly conscripted from prisons facing

ukraines who were volunteers but as you point out the difference in population is vast and we are providing european partners provide training to ukrainian troops, resupply we get tanks in the field and in combination should make possible a successful ukrainian counter offensive this spring. if this is a long, grinding conflict even though the russians are not well motivated or led they could be successful so we need to continue to support ukraine to be successful this spring. >> perhaps the biggest domestic fight is the debt ceiling. we heard about the budget though scant on details but kevin mccarthy said this is the first

step to negotiations with the white house on this matter they say this is something to be passed separate we are at an impasse is there any role for the senate to play as the clock starts to tick to deadline >> the senate is playing the role it can and should play. yesterday there were appropriations with questioning the members of the cabinet about president biden's budget that's the process that we should be going through. regular order to take up, discuss, debate and pass bills to approve the spending. we can't default on the debt if we do the cost for americans would be crushing. thrown into recession. every one of us paying loans would see the interest rates go unand the country under a cloud in terms of borrowing on the

world stage or strength. we should deal with the deficit and the spending plans and president biden said he will meet with and negotiate with kevin mccarthy on that matter but not as a result of hostage taking the consequences of what kevin mccarthy narrowly passed by two votes yesterday afternoon, it would impose cuts that none want to support result in laying off 30,000 state and local police officers. cause a million low income seniors to lose access to meal on meals i could go on and on. >> senator coons, thank you. >> thank you. also on capitol hill, a group of senators produced a bill to ban children under 13 from using facebook and instagram. the bill would also require 13

to 17-year-olds to get the parent or guardian's consent to use the apps and companies would be prohibited from using algorithms to recommend content to anyone under 18 and enforced by the federal trade commission and the state's attorneys general. >> eddie >> might be a good idea. worried about 17-year-olds in this regard but they are affected i have to look at the details. this might be something to do. >> enforcement will be hard. >> mike? >> i think it's just an unbelievable raising children today as compared to ten years ago. today is a nightmare given the access they are -- >> totally agree

>> yeah. it is so interesting, willie we have seen time and time again where for some reason what's online is somehow treated different than any other business in america. you talk about section 230 which we need to have a big debate on at some point but if you write something in "the new york times" that slanders somebody and if published they can be sued if we say something here we can be sued. somebody on a radio show says something they can be sued facebook, twitter? no can't be sued. there's within example also, content. there have been age guidelines on certain content but you do it here and acting like a social media company can't target a 10-year-old with algorithms and

people scream like it's the end of the first amendment in america. >> the job of a parent is so different. i have two teenagers you cannot sit back and hope for the best because you noent what they see and hear and feel about themselves based on what they see. it's one of the most important jobs. >> actress jennifer garner said with her kids you do some research and if you can find data that supports that this is good for you i'll let you go on social media. digging into reporting of tweet messages by tuck every carlson that set off a crisis in fox news and ultimately led to

his firing. plus the latest legal trump for former president trump as the woman accusing him of rape takes the stand. you are watching "morning joe. we'll be right back. uh... you were made to remember some days forever. we were made to help you find the best way there. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. with the money we saved, we tried electric unicycles. i think i've got it! doggy-paddle! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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joe biden grew up middle class. and he gets that middle-class life is too expensive. that's why he passed the inflation reduction act. it lowers prescription costs by letting medicare negotiate with drug companies. it lowers energy bills by investing in american-made clean energy. and it's fully paid for by making big corporations pay the taxes they owe. the inflation reduction act is making middle class life more affordable. because joe biden gets it. and he's getting it done. from prom dresses to workouts because joe biden gets it. and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have

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"the new york times" has new reporting on fox's firing of carlson. two sources say the start before the do minnian trial against the network the fox board of directors and top executives learned about messages sent by carlson redacted in legal filings. according to the sources it is h highly offensive and crude remarks beyond the racist comments of the prime time show and anything disclosed in the lead-up to the trial. >> can i -- go ahead. >> yeah. >> so important. >> "wall street journal" report

that is carlson called a female executive director a crude slur. worst one ever several people with knowledge of the discussion told "the times" the messages a catalyst to sever ties with the host of the highest rated and highly profitful prime time program. >> really quickly, you know, i saw a clip from this weekend bill maher he was reading some text messages and read the ones that came out where tucker carlson called the head of fox news, a woman, the c-word, which i noticed -- it just in the united states you don't say it. it's a little different culturally in britain.

but here it is as bad as it gets i notice even in bill maher's hardened audiences there were gasps in the crowd and i thought he's saying this -- this is out. this is shocking veto this crowd. and i remember saying to mika i don't know if he's going to survive this she agreed. >> two things it was used in the context of the boss which is disrespectful, rude and dumb tactics if you work for that network. i think an indication to rupert and lachlan about the belief he was bigger than the network he was working for. no one is too big to be push ud out and then also a messages

which show the kind of work environment and the attitudes that existed there from carlson down to women that made it toxic. post me too that work environment is not acceptable anymore. we have seen that at fox with bill o'reilly having to go and that bullying of that kind of nature is a post-me too thing that's not allowed they made the decision he had to go. >> and on the bill maher show calling another woman that in those texts. sidney powell and find out talking about his boss suzanne scott and then the lawyers said to him, we think we can have this redacted. he said that's how i feel about

her. i want people to know. willie, for everybody out there -- not everybody but some that are loyalists and trumpists and shocked and stunned and deeply saddened thinking this is about a conspiracy there is not a corporation in america, not a company in america where a worker can say that about a female boss and survive. not one. this is just something that would literally get you fired anywhere in the united states. >> what's interesting, too, the reporting immediately after being let go is nothing to do with the dominion settlement maybe not what he was saying on the air but that discovery in that lawsuit in that case did ultimately it appears according

to the sources result in the firing so it came to light around the dominion case. the texts and emails that appears led to him being fired. >> a raft of messages. that were redacted fox and the lawyers know it is untenable. there's another belief that there are other subplots but the messages are enough to get you fired. there might be more. carlson did make an appearance last night tweeted a video, first words since the dismissal. he said you'll be hearing from me soon. >> yeah. i understand that the word used

in the text messages is similar to like one or two other words that you don't use in america. let alone the american workplace. we are not babies. can't be the only reason carlson was fired when you look at the other things he has said and on television that were stirred up in this lawsuit and are going to be stirred up in lawsuits to come and i think about even just blatant lies about january 6 which, you know, is as stunning as the word that was used but i just think the focus on the slur against women, we are not babies i think it is terrible he is horrible to say that word. just horrible. but there were 20,000 -- that is an exaggeration. a lot of things he said on the air i find and members of the

journalistic community find like an assault on the democracy. >> right. >> was that the tipping point? >> yeah. i think so i think it was a combination most of us would agree with that it is a combination of many things -- the attacks where he was ridiculing the audience by saying one thing on the air and something else off the air the judgment, the lawsuit coming up with producer with like 90 recorded messages. that where she is alleging anti-semitic remarks a lot. on top of that somebody taking pride in throwing slurs at a person that run it is network. that probably is a tipping point but one of many things.

steve kornacki at the big board to break down the numbers on the political divides the headline calls it a country on fire. steve joins the conversation just ahead on "morning joe."

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a woman suing donald trump for sexual assault and defamation took the stand in her civil trial against the former president. e. jean carroll described the encounter in a new york department store in the '90s that trump said never happened laura jarrett has more. >> reporter: e. jean carroll saying i'm here because donald

trump raped me and when i wrote about it he said it didn't happen it is a discushing allegation the former president denied. the columnist what started as a chance encounter what she does recall is it started with playful banter as trump wanted help buying a gift. they joked about trying on lingerie she said the next thing she knew he shoved her against the wall of a dressing room i was pushing him back then she says he assaulted her, an accusation described many times before. >> i thought it was hurt, against my will. >> reporter: confided in two friends when it happened one advised her to go to the police the other stay quiet he has 200 lawyers

he will bury you she never went to the police she filed a civil suit for battery last year with a new bill for a one-year window to file claims. she's also suing trump for defa defamation pointing to this post and calling the case a scam drawing a rebuke from the judge over the trial warning the attorneys the comments are inappropriate. >> nbc's laura jarrett with that report trump commented on the case yesterday before carroll took the stand calling her miss bergdorf saying the allegations are a made up scam adding it's a fraudulent and false story witch hunt the judge over the case called the statement entirely inappropriate.

all right. >> let's talk about, also, willie, we talked about disney actually stepping forward against ron desantis they're going to sue because they believe that he improperly used the power of state government to go after disney. and like we had said before doesn't make sense in the state of florida and especially right now if bob iger is on the other side. >> yeah. this is a different animal now that he is running the company the comment that desantis objected to is from the previous ceo not there. he is fighting disney, the largest private employer in the state. he picked this fight because he had his feelings hurt about a

piece of legislation so now disney is suing back at him saying this is not how it works. the government can't step in and defame them and do the things that the governor is doing there may be in the private moments, joe, some regret perhaps from governor desantis to pick up this fight to win favor with a sliver of supporters but trying in the process to hurt the state and potential political chances down the road. >> i don't mean to keep saying it but, you know, go up against the last guy, that's one bob iger you will get hurt politically. ron desantis needs to sue for peace as soon as possible. >> yeah. the donors are watching this between the six week abortion

ban and then disney it is devastating for the donor fortunes with donors wanting to get on board with somebody who is not donald trump and now holding off and poor approval ratings and looking less like somebody who will be the republican nominee over the fight he can't win in a state where disney employs thousands of people. none of it makes sense it will be interesting to see the charts but the numbers don't work. a next guest said president biden's advantage has nothing to do with what he's done lis smith explains just ahead on "mniorng joe." like my morning ride. will it help lower my glucose? with the freestyle libre 2 system you can know where your glucose level is

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beautiful shot of washington, d.c. 47 past the hour time now for a look at the morning papers, beginning in wisconsin where the milwaukee journal sentinel reports the state supreme court will hear arguments in an abortion case. at issue is a 1849 law that makes abortions a felony offense. and bans it in every case except when the mother's life is at risk wisconsin's attorney general filed the lawsuit to overturn it after the u.s. supreme court overturned roe v. wade saying the law is invalid because the state passed other measuring that conflict with it. in michigan, the break into them

to uncover security flaws. officials say they have

discovered 30 vulnerables. georgia is believed to be the first state in the nation for a so-called bug bounty still ahead on "morning joe," the fighting in sudan and the efforts to rescue american citizens trying to flee the country. plus, new national polling finding differences on major issues we'll dig into where americans stand on everything from the term woke to the views on the fundamental goals of society keep it on "morning joe. we'll be right back. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ hey, man. nice pace! clearly, you're a safe driver. you could save hundreds for safe driving with liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance

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♪ beautiful shot of new york city it's a cloudy day. it's a great shot. for the next two days, politicians, journalists and

activists from around the world will gather in the big apple to participate in global citizen second annual global citizen now summit it's an opportunity for leading figures to collaborate on solutions to some of humanity's most pressing challenges, including, extreme poverty, gender inequality and climate change joining us now to discuss the summit is global citizen cofounder hugh evans it's great to see you. >> great to see you too, mika. >> you have a special guest tomorrow i'm very excited about this figure in our society it's joe scarborough >> we embrace mediocrity hugh, it's going to be obviously an important summit. what issues do you hope to focus

on mainly there? >> well, joe, firstly, thank you so much dpfor coming up to be pt of global citizen now tomorrow we're thrilled to have you with us you'll be interviewing president macron of france it's not a talk fest we're designed to drive action on the world's greatest challenges citizens can interact with world leaders. you have the opportunity to interact with g7 leaders, with leaders of fortune 500 companies. we're most passionate about the reform of the world bank for too long under the leadership of the former president, they're really asleep at the wheel really he was absolutely an empty suit right now all eyes are on rj banger as to whether he can reform the world bank to serve the world's poor as it was

designed to do post the second world war agreement. >> your focprimary focus remainn extreme global poverty talk about how you hope to move the ball forward tomorrow. >> you're exactly right. extreme poverty and climate change are two sides of the same coin right now all the climate negotiations are stalled because the world's wealthest nations promised to give $100 billion to the world's poorest nations, but they're $17 billion short. for the next few days, we hope to see true leadership from the g7 you're going to be speaking to president macron tomorrow. he's agreed to host the summit on june 22nd in paris. that will be the opportunity ahead of the cop meeting later this year to see if we can make decisive action on the issues of

fair finance for the world's poor and also to tackle climate change together. we have big hopes for the next few days we're all going to be tuning into that really important interview you're going to do tomorrow from global citizen now. >> talk about the relationship between the challenge to address extreme poverty and the anti-democratic forces that seem to be sweeping the globe so the backdrop to this summit, of course, is the threat of authoritarianism how do we address these central questions you're dealing with in light of the struggles we're facing now across the globe? >> our view is that citizens around the world need to be empowered to hold their leaders accountable. everything we've done at global citizen is about empowering citizen activism to enable them to hold world leaders' feet to the fire unless they're accountable, the promises they make on a grand stage often aren't followed

through. case in point is the world bank right now. as of 2022 they were loaning at an equity to loan ratio of 22% they were letting billions of dollars set on the sidelines that's unacceptable. we need janet yellen, because ultimately the treasury is -- we need to hold world leaders accountable. >> hi, hugh. great laudable ideals. what are you doing differently to make sure the things that come out of your forum actually do get implements, given all of these leaders will go back to their own democratic political realities and have to respond to those. >> we're not just a think tank we have 11 million members around the world

those members are in france. so when president macron goes back to france, we'll have tens of thousands of global citizens in paris calling on him to actually use that summit on june 22nd as an opportunity so obviously, you know, he lives in a democracy so we can use the power of democracy for good we can actually have actual citizens hold elected representatives to account all around the world that's different most think tanks bring people together and there's no accountability mechanism our accountability mechanism is in the power of our membership that's why i'm calling on everyone around the world to download the global citizen app and use your voice, because this app empowers you to hold world leaders accountable for the promises they've made to address the greatest challenges of our generation. >> before we wrap this up, i want you to once gagain explain, because i was talking to my son

about it yesterday when we were talking about interviewing president macron and talked about what's unique about global citizen. i think we all grew up in the sort of live aid, farm aid type world, which was great, where people would contribute and write checks but, again, you're multiplying that thousands and thousands of times over by telling people we're not asking for your $15 contribution, we're asking you to really lend voices to our causes, whether it's with president macron or president biden or justin trudeau, whoever that leader may be. >> that's exactly right. your analogy dating back to the days of live aid is important. yes that raised over $28 million to help address the famine of its time, but we know extreme

poverty is a $350 billion a year challenge. it's not going to be solved by black tie gala dinners we need citizens calling on world leaders to commit. since global citizen was founded ten years ago, more than $46 billion has been deployed. that wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the voice of global citizens calling for change you don't buy a ticket, you earn it through citizen action. all of your actions earn you points that's what makes this model unique it is global democracy at work. >> it's really a beautiful model. global citizen cofounder hugh evans, thank you so much joe's interview with president macron will air live on "morning joe" tomorrow morning. we'll all be watching. it's just past 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east we have a lot to get to.

florida governor ron desantis famously bragged that his state is where woke goes to ie, but what do americans actually think of the term? steve kornacki at the big board to break down new polling on that and other polarizing political issues. also ahead, with president biden's reelection campaign under way, one of our next guests argues that the president's biggest advantage has nothing to do with anything he has done. a little later we'll be joined by the cofounder of a nonprofit which helps people in disaster areas and conflict zones around the world we start this hour with florida governor ron desantis expected to officially jump into the presidential race as soon as mid mid may. that's what four republican operatives tell nbc news at least one of them says desantis will first announce an exploratory committee. a new survey this morning

shows donald trump leading governor desantis 62% to 16% i wonder if this may have something to do with it. desantis also has to contend with a new lawsuit filed by disney alleging desantis and other officials committed constitutional violations during a, quote, targeted campaign of government retaliation it came minutes after a board which was appointed by the governor to oversee disney's district voted to pass the resolution that transfers some of disney world's self-governing power to the state the federal civil suit argues desantis's actions are part of a, quote, relentless campaign to weaponize government power over the company. >> new polling is taking place on what americans think about woke let's bring in steve kornacki at the big board.

steve, woke-ism or however you want to define it, political correctness in the past, not popular, never been popular with republicans, but also not republican with a lot of democrats. i do wonder, though, if the word's just been used so much that it ceases to have any real meaning attached to it. >> it's an interesting we have from our nbc poll. new questions we can show you really get to this question of social change in the country, some attitudes on cultural issues i think what emerges is a picture of a country that's divided. that's no surprise i think it gets to what you're saying different terms can mean different things to different people simultaneously. we asked, do you think american society is racist?

there is widespread in our poll agreement that it is, 59% saying yes. there is a smaller majority of white americans that feel that way and larger majorities of african-americans and hispanics feel the same way. you're getting nearly 60% of the country saying yes, the country is racist. one of the solutions in place now for decades has been affirmative action programs. we asked this poll, affirmative action, is it still needed and is it still a good idea as long as there are no rigid quotas that's what we asked in this poll a majority, 53%, agreed with that the other option was affirmative action goes too far. it should be ended because it discriminates against whites and asian-americans. 42% agreed with that statement

you can see democrats overwhelmingly say they're fine with affirmative action. republicans overwhelmingly say they're opposed. it's that independent slice of the opinion that kind of makes the difference and is in line with the overall number. one interesting note on this, while you can see this in our poll when we ask it this way, there was one big ballot test for affirmative action in the last couple years. it came in a big and deeply blue state and that was california. california about a generation ago had banned public sector affirmative action two years ago, supporters of affirmative action put it on the ballot in california to restore affirmative action in the public sector in california it went down to defeat by 16 points in california while you are seeing double digit support for the concept of affirmative action, you have to keep in mind what happened in a

very, very big blue state when affirmative action was on the ballot in 2020 are you familiar with the term woke three quarters of americans say they are familiar with the term woke what does it mean to you does it make you more or less favorably inclined to people who identify as woke among democrats it's more positive among republicans it's deeply unpopular. there it is. among independents the word woke has a very negative connotation with republican voters diff we ran a number of statements by people and asked does this describe your view our country needs to do more to increase social justice.

70% said they agreed with that our country needs to reduce political correctness and cancel culture. basically two-thirds also agree with that. our country should be more tolerant of the lgbtq community. 61% say they agree if you ask it this way, we have gone too far in promoting lgbtq lifestyles in our cultutculture. nearly 60% say yes when you look at the contours of our political debate, a lot of these statements you might think would be in opposition to each other and would polarize and yet you run these statements by people and you're finding big majority support for it. like i say, there is a lot of measures of divisiveness on

social and cultural issues on this poll, but there's also a lot of interpretive room here. >> we talked about this a lot on the show again, i think as far as just the term woke, it's been used so much that it means absolutely nothing at this point. but those conflicts that we've seen between different things, you hear it in conversations we hear it in conversations all the time when we're off the set with people who believe many more social justice, think we need to move more toward social justice, support affirmative action, think the country needs to do more on the issues of race at the same time, they oppose political correctness, woke culture and cancel culture

on lgbtq issues, the same people would be the first to say we need to be more tolerant and more supportive of the lgbtq community. they'll also say, so why did a male swimmer who transitioned to becoming a woman, why is she able to now compete with other women swimmers post puberty? this is all very complicated stuff. that last thing i talked about, 82% of americans say post puberty, people who transition post puberty should not be able to compete against those who did not transition post puberty. statement, a large segment of those people would be the first to say we need to be more supportive of the lgbtq community. so a lot of complicated issues here it seems to me the right

political leader could get their arms around and sort of synthesize these conflicts. >> i think we have to understand the way in which wokeness has been deployed in our political debate at this current moment. i think you're right, it's too broad to be meaningful i think we also need to understand the social science paradox that's always been a part of american public opinion research that is, we can tell a story about the increasing toleration of the american public with regards to issues of race. that is to say, you polled americans in 1950 around desegregating schools. they're against it you poll them in 1980. they're not for segregation in that way the increasing attitude of toleration with regards to folks, does it match to how we

would resolve the persistent inequality that defines the country? so people will say they're committed to social justice, but they're not committed to how we remedy social injustice. that's been a paradox in the social science literature with regards to race, gender. this is what we've been trying to wrap our minds around for a long time. i don't know if a politician can step into that and resolve it. they can certainly help us make sense of it. >> people support those ideas in theory, but when it touches their life in some way, it gets a little murkier during a joint press conference with the president of south korea yesterday, president biden expressed concerns about his age when it comes to his 2024 election bid. >> with regard to age, i can't even say the number.

it doesn't register with me. the only thing i can say is that one of the things people are going to find out whether or not i have it or don't have it i respect them taking a hard look at it i took a hard look at it before i decided to run i feel good and i feel excited about the prospects and i think we're on the verge of really turning the corner the way we haven't in a long time i know you're tired of hearing me say we're at an inflection point. we are what happens in the next two, three, four years in terms of what the next decade looks like? i've never been more optimistic about the united states. >> liz, you have a new piece for the "new york times" titled "biden's biggest advantage has nothing to do with anything he's done." you write the fate of the democratic party will rest in

the hands of an 81-year-old incumbent president who the majority of the country disapproves of biden can make a compelling case for his first-term accomplishments, steadily leadership and a vision of the country fundamentally different from what is on offer from republicans. mr. biden's biggest advantage might not come from anything he's done. instead, it might come from the chaos among republicans. in recent years the electorate has become more supportive of abortion rights. yet, republicans have not come up with an answer and in some ways they seem to be making the problem worse. if joe biden emerges victorious in 2024, it will be because voters preferred him to the alternative, not to the almighty liz, obviously we know this white house is rooting quietly and maybe in some ways publicly that donald trump is the nominee. they believe they have the best chance against him because, in

part, of all the things you just laid out there. >> yeah. there's no question that donald trump would enter a general election as an extremely damaged candidate. we saw in both 2018, in 2020 and 2022 that independent suburban voters were very, very motivated to vote against him. they helped hand us a lot of key victories. we don't see that same animus toward joe biden we did not see that same animus in 2022. he had mediocre poll ratings, but they did not turn out to cast a vote against him. the point i want to make with this piece is to not look at biden's numbers in a vacuum, but in the full context of this race as biden is fond of saying, don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative. the alternative today is donald trump and his party.

>> we had some polls up earlier in the show suggesting that among voters who don't like either candidate, biden or trump, if made to choose, they break hard for biden only 15% say they'd go for trump in that way. we know what kind of roll those voters played in 2016, they broke largely for trump. there could be a couple more indictments between now and election day 2024 for donald trump. say republicans emerged someone else do you think democrats have done a good enough job linking other republicans to these same extreme issues they have done with trump >> i think democrats have done a good job of that, but i actually think republicans have done a better job of that look at ron desantis in florida. he just signed into law a

six-week abortion ban, a ban that would kick in before the majority of women even know they're pregnant if he tries to take that national as a candidate, he's going to fall flat with general election voters. since the dobbs decision we've seen that abortion rights have become more, not less popular with the american people it's a different race against different candidates, but i think largely the party has embraced very extreme, outside the mainstream positions on issues like abortion rights. >> i wonder, especially given you worked with candidate buttigieg, the abortion issue and a number of these issues separate the democrat and let's say it's trump/biden, there is a certain aspect to it of empathy, of being a good guy, going beyond experience and wisdom as well i get the point of view from

which i am speaking. you know, some republicans might roll their eyes, but there is kind of a difference here in tone as well >> oh there really is. it sometimes frustrates me when i hear people and some democrats say that joe biden doesn't excite them. he doesn't send a thrill up their leg. i think we need to maybe value some different things in who we choose as president. he is a man of tremendous integrity, of decency, who is in public as mservice for the righ reasons. as a society, it would benefit us if we valued qualities like that a little bit more, because maybe we'd be less likely to get a game show host as our president. >> liz smith, great to see you thanks for being on this morning. >> thank you. a 79-year-old illinois man is facing first degree murder charges for killing his neighbor, who was using a leaf

blower police say the suspect shot his neighbor after the two got into an argument. this is just one of many incidents reported across the country where homeowners are accused of shooting people near or on their property the number of people smoking cigarettes in the u.s. has dropped to an all-time low a government survey finds only 1 in 9 adults say they are smokers. that is a huge drop from the 1960s when 42% of adults smoked. electronic cigarette use, however, is on the rise. 1 in 17 adults say they vape there's a nearly 6% increase from last year. southwest airlines says it lost $159 million therin the fit quarter of this year during the holiday meltdown still the airline did log a 21% increase in revenue compared to last year, bringing in $5.7

billion. the u.s. gross domestic product slowed to a 1.1% annual rate in the first quarter. economists have been expecting growth of 2%, a sign that the fed's interest rate hikes are causing the slowdown. >> that's quite a slowdown. >> it is coming up on "morning joe," a look at the new novel from best selling author of "mystic river" and "shutter island." plus, thousands of foreign nationals are fitrying to escape the fighting in sudan. you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b.

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it's been nearly two weeks since a para military group

first stormed sudan's capital and began attacking key government sites a previously negotiated cease fire between that group and the nation's military was set to expire tonight, but that may no longer happen. sudan's military said late last night that its leader had given approval to extend the truce for another three days meanwhile, there is heavy fighting in sudan's dar fur region where the associated press reports dozens of people have been killed questions still remain this morning surrounding the americans who have been left behind on saturday the u.s. embassy in sudan's capital suspended its operations and ordered staff to leave the country. but according to the a.p., while embassy staff was air lifted out, there were no plans to provide similar evacuations for potentially thousands of americans still in sudan in a security alert tuesday, the state department reiterated that due to the uncertain security

situation in khartoum and closure of the airport, it is not currently safe to undertake a u.s. government coordinated evacuation of private u.s. citizens our next guest has traveled to sudan to help rescue trapped americans and residents of other nato and allied countries from the war zone and bring them to safety joining us now brian stern, cofounder of project dynamo, a veteran-led international search and rescue operating to provide assistance to those in disaster areas and conflict zones throughout the world thank you so much for being on the show who have you been able to rescue, how many people and how, given the airport situation, are you getting them out >> thanks for having us. khartoum international, krt, is

definitely closed, but there's lots of other airfields around sudan is a big country it has more than one international airport. there's lots of military bases around so there are other options besides the one in the capital city our tactics right now are getting people from the hot zone to a warm citizen, if you will, out of the immediate danger area and then trying to get them out of the country but it is extremely dangerous, it is very volatile. because of the nature of war and in particular civil war, which is the worst kind of war to have, frankly, things are extremely complicated on the ground. >> the evacuations that you have executed, how have they gone have you confronted any challenges in terms of the danger factor? and how many more people are still trapped there that you can know of? how are you all kconnecting

>> people find us. we have hundreds of people registered with us for us at least, there are hundreds i suspect there are thousands, but we're not sure yet everybody wants to get out sudanese, americans, whoever, nobody wants to reside in a war zone, generally speaking so we have our work cut out for us we're in it to win it, but we need financial help. projec projectdynamo.org is where people go to register. if you have friends or family that are stuck, please register them on our website. that's also where the public can go to donate we need public support we need financial support. we receive no assistance from the united states government at this time. >> bryan, we were talking to admiral zef reets about this a

couple of days ago our military makes things look easy that are very difficult and risky. from your point of view, how high risk are these evacuations, not the official military ones, but what you're doing here >> the brave men and women of our military who did the evacuation were under war-time conditions i expect they all got imminent danger pay, as appropriate this is a war zone it was dangerous for them. it is more dangerous for us, because we really don't have a lot of backup. i don't have helicopters at my disposal or green berets or navy s seals. we're at a big disadvantage there. by the same token, we don't have the policy or political issues that government has, which allows us to be a little leaner and meaner sometimes. >> bryan, understandably your focus is on getting foreigners

and particularly americans are out. the brits are doing the same the chinese are doing the same the cease fire that had been holding sort of tenuously looks now to be over there are reports of attacks in khartoum and it's spreading to dar for as well. what about those civilians left behind if the cease fire is over >> they'll be stuck in an unbelievably terrible situation. this is our third country we've worked in the last 18 months where the embassy was closed and americans were left behind first ukraine, then afghanistan, now sudan. sadly, we're very familiar with the circumstance the people that pay the highest price in war are the innocent civilians stuck in the middle of it the sudanese that are left are in for a pretty horrible, terrible experience until this war is over.

>> project dino cofounder bryan stern, thank you for what you're doing. >> thank you please donate. we need help very badly. please help. thank you. still ahead, "new york times" best selling author dennis la han is ourue gst we'll talk about his new novel which tackles boston's battles with desegregation in the '70s "morning joe" will be right back (avo) now you can with once-weekly mounjaro. mounjaro helps your body regulate blood sugar, and mounjaro can help decrease how much food you eat. 3 out of 4 people reached an a1c of less than 7%. plus people taking mounjaro lost up to 25 pounds. mounjaro is not for people with type 1 diabetes or children.

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♪ oh my goodness, look at that fog. you can barely see the golden gate bridge in san francisco it's 35 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." a new novel by "new york times" best seller dennis la han, known for the thrillers "mystic river" and "shutter island" takes us back to his hometown of boston during one of its most tumultuous moments during the '70s, scores of white residents protested the desegregation of boston schools. and that is the backdrop for his new book entitled "small

mercies. dennis, take us into this book it's the summer of 1974. there's a heat wave in boston. bring us into it >> there's a heat wave in boston, yes. everybody has 90 days to prepare for a student swap between a predominantly african-american school and a 100% white school in south boston. this book is set during sort of furious days of really violence and pretty horrific levels of racism it's about a mother who goes searching for her daughter, who vanishes on the same night that an african-american man is found dead on a subway track >> hey, dennis jonathan lemire here i'm from lowell, massachusetts, so certainly familiar with the time period and the energy and the, frankly as you say,

violence of that period with the bussing in the mid '70s in boston not every viewer is, i don't think. could you tell us a little bit more, please, of the backdrop of where your novel takes place and what that moment was like for the city of boston >> well, for nine years the boston school committee had blocked any attempt at desegregation or integration of african-american students in with the white population of the city in a case called morgan versus h hannigan said you have 90 days or to comply or we will force your children to get on buses and go to different cities to school t the news did not go over well. it was a burden that fell completely on the working class neighborhoods of the city.

i really feel if it had been something that affected at the county level, then it would have been a success but because of alienation among the working class neighborhoods and being constantly told what was good for them without votes, when that clashed with a really entrenched level of racism, that's when you got the explosion we saw in the city. >> the startling images that take us out of the south, into the north. i'm so looking forward to reading the book talk about the character mary pat. how did you draw her you've got these parallel events they're related in some sort of way. talk a little bit about how you drew this character, how you got inside of her so she could jump off the page.

>> i knew women like this growing up, mostly women who came from the housing projects for sure they were as tough as many men they could go head to head and would go head to head in a fist fight with a man i'm not saying they would win, but they would bloody him up before they lost i was fascinated with these women, because they were truly tough. they were truly unsentimental and they raised really tough kids but they were also when you got underneath it all, they were usually lonely, they were usually victims of abuse themselves so mary pat is this functioning alcoholic, chain-smoking, foul-mouthed racist, who on this journey to discover what happened to her daughter on this night just before september 12th, which was when the desegregation began, she has to confront the legacy of her own

racism and what it did and how it affected those she loved and how it hurt those she loved. her other journey, which is to take it all away straight into the heart of the criminal culture in south boston at that time and to be absolutely fearless about it, i feel was the heroic part of the story there's two parts of the story there's the heroic part and the not heroic part. and there's two parts for mary pat. >> the new novel is entitled "small mercies." thank you so much for being on the show this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," a week long fight over a bill banning transgender care in montana. it ends with the state's only transgender laakwmer getting banned from the house floor. new reporting on that story is straight ahead breyers natural vanilla is made with 100% grade a milk and cream. and only sustainably farmed vanilla.

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joe biden grew up middle class. and he gets that middle-class life is too expensive. that's why he passed the inflation reduction act. it lowers prescription costs by letting medicare negotiate with drug companies. it lowers energy bills by investing in american-made clean energy. and it's fully paid for by making big corporations pay the taxes they owe. the inflation reduction act is making middle class life more affordable. because joe biden gets it. and he's getting it done.

a transgender lawmaker in montana state house has been banned from the republican-controlled floor after speaking out against banning gender affirming medicine to minors representative zoe zephyr was fighting for the rights. >> motion passes. >> fomontana legislatuors takina extraordinary step, banning zoe zephyr for the remainder of the year. >> this conduct cannot be allowed to stand >> when the speaker asked me to apologizedecorum, he's really asking me to be silent. >> zephyr first made waves on the house floor last week after

delivering passionate remarks about a bill that would prohibit hormone treatments and surgical care for transgender minors. >> i hope the next time you bow your heads in prayer, you see the blood on your hands. >> house republicans argue zephyr broke decorum rules and immediately threatened disciplinary action following the remarks. >> the representative from house district number 100 clearly violated the rules, collective rights, safety, dignity, integrity and decorum of the house of representatives. >> zephyr standing by her comments. >> if you use decorum to silence people who hold you accountable, then all you're doing is using decorum as a tool of oppression. >> house republicans also argued zephyr incited this protest monday after lawmakers refused to let the democrat speak on the floor all week but zephyr tells nbc news she

doesn't regret what she believed is standing up for democracy >> when you make the correct moral and ethical choice, it's hard to feel anything other than pride in that moment and pride in the people who came to the capitol to show support for democracy and demand that it works. >> we iup next, a look at some f the stories making the front page headlines across the country.

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shot of dallas at 8:51 in the morning. a look at some of the morning papers the anchorage daily news reports the alaska lawmakers, a house committee approved legislation that removes all mentions of sexual education and gender and requires parents to sign off on their students' participation in any class or activity regardless of subject matter. the only exceptions are for lessons about swaexual assault n prevention programs. in new mexico, a feature on new technology that could help

to prevent drunk driving the department of transportation is highlighting a report that suggests all new cars implement a system that can detect a driver's blood alcohol content this is brilliant. the national highway traffic safety administration has until 2024 to complete new rules for the impaired driving technology. we'll keep an eye on that. the houston chronicle leads with the texas senate passing a controversial land use bill. the measure bars citizens of china, russia, north korea or iran from buying land for agriculture, oil, or mining. after months of protest, lawmakers approved an amended version that creates an exception to those people who are legal u.s. residents critics say the bill sends the wrong message and stirs up distrust from americans about those countries. and staying in texas, the dallas morning news has a front page feature on a massive blob of seaweed that's headed towards the texas coast. the seaweed stretches 5,000 miles.

wow. officials believe it could hit beaches at the peak of summer blanketing them in a thick and smelly, yellow brown algae officials are now providing guy dance to beach towns on how to remove the seaweed so in our remaining moments, go around the horn here for some final thoughts john, what are you looking at? >> it's the white house correspondents dinner saturday night in washington. a weekend full of events there's always a tribute to the first amendment and the job the press does this year in particular it's going to be about evan gershkovich who is held wrongly in russia. we saw him last week appear in a cage in a russian courtroom. there's a full page ad in "the washington post," wall street journal, and "new york times" out today and president biden is expected to address this saturday night as part of his speech all of our thoughts are with evan and his family. >> the journal keeping him top of mind and we'll continue to do so. >> eddie. >> teachers, students, and professors pushing back against ron desantis and his folks,

shall we say arguing against the ap class and african american studies. the college board is returning to the drawing board addressing some of the things that they are compromised on i think that's a good sign we have to fight for the world we want, the things we want against the folks who want to hold onto other things. >> katty kay, what are you looking at today >> i'm going to leave you guys to go ahead to a state luntcheo, i'm hoping we get a few more verses of american pie. >> based on the performance last night. >> finish the song. >> it looks like he could do it start to finish. he's that good and mika i know you're excited about tonight's nfl draft in kansas city, a huge spectacle. you fully expect bryce young of alabama to go first. others are saying it could be c.j. stroud, maybe will levis, perhaps anthony richardson. >> nfl draft, is that a beer all right. so tomorrow we are going to be watching "morning joe. i'll be on "morning joe," except

joe is going to be headed to global citizen now, and he'll be interviewing french president emmanuel macron. we look forward to that. we'll have that live tomorrow on "morning joe," and that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. ♪ something touched me deep inside the day the music died ♪ [ cheers and applause

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♪ hello on this thursday, friday eve as i like to call it. it is 10:00 a.m. eastern, i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york

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