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with joy reid next tonight on "the reidout" -- >> it angered me but i turned to my daughter, who was standing there by me it doesn't take courage to break the law, it takes courage to uphold the law the president's words were reckless it's clear he decided to be part of the problem >> mike pence back in november with about as much anger as pence is able to muster. today, the former vice president presumably said much more to the grand jury in the doj's january 6th probe. also tonight, you can't beat me up for not screaming. the chilling words of e. jean carroll who was back on the witness stand today, facing cross-examination in trump's civil rape trial and we begin tonight with the breaking news that former vice president mike pence

testified before the d.c. grand jury investigating donald trump's role in the january 6th insurrection the path to pence's testimony was cleared yesterday, when a three-judge panel rejected trump's emergency bid to prevent pence from testifying. pence's appearance is a testament to the speed at which special prosecutor jack smith is moving with his investigation into the former president's intent to obstruct the peaceful transfer of power. pence, who was considering a 2024 presidential run, spent nearly eight hours in front of the grand jury, answering detailed, probative questions from lawyers this is the first time the former vice president shared his own personal experiences to anyone connected with law enforcement. prior to this, he refused a congressional subpoena from the january 6th committee, saying that they had no right to his testimony. today, roughly 30 washington, d.c. residents got to hear his unvarnished account or one that wasn't edited for a book it should not be lost on the

public how close trump supporters came to upending american democracy and violently attacking members of congress, including the vice president [ chanting bring out pence ] [ chanting hang mike pence ] >> thanks to the january 6th committee, we learned that insurrectionists came within 40 feet of pence and his family his life was very much in danger, but donald trump didn't care because donald trump waged an unrelenting public and private pressure campaign on his vice president after the election because trump wanted pence to overturn the election, just last march, trump blamed pence for the violence telling a crowd of supporters that it was pence's fault because he refused to send the election back to the states. joining me is olivia troye,

former senior adviser to vice president mike pence, hugo lowell, political investigations reporter for the guardian, and paul butler, former federal prosecutor, georgetown professor of law, and msnbc analyst. we have new reporting from our own john allen moments ago on manchester, new hampshire, where trump is rather than being at the e. jean carroll trial. he walked into the red arrow diner. john allen asked former president trump about mike pence testifying to the grand jury here's what mike allen asked him, mr. president, what do you think of mike pence testifying today, and trump said, oh, i don't know what he said, but i have a lot of confidence in him. you covered donald trump for quite some time. what do you make of that and the fact mike pence did testify? >> that's not the message from behind the scenes in trump world. they see pence's testimony as potentially the most damaging thing that could be for trump in the january 6th investigation. look, pence was there all of the key moments. he was there on the night before

the capitol attack on january 5. he was there the morning of the capitol attack one-on-one with trump. these are conversations the january 6th committee could never get ahold of also, pence was discussing how to -- whether he could use objections to throw out the election to the house or send it back to the states these are discussions being done at the white house with republican members of congress so pence saw a lot he was there in the room all the way through from election night to january 6th, and that is why jack smith has been so interested in pursuing his testimony. >> olivia, you can imagine he would have a lot to say. he actually asked a former vice president, can i do this he did entertain the idea of overturning the election i do want to play what his former aide, mark short, told the january 6th committee. this was part of his testimony, and this is the question of what pence was being told and what he was saying to donald trump take a listen. >> was it your impression that the vice president had directly conveyed his position on these issues to the president, not

just to the world through a dear colleague letter, but directly to president trump >> many times. >> and he had been consistent in conveying his position to the president? >> very consistent >> consistent in saying i don't have the legal right to do this. donald trump then goes out, does his speech, and then he tweets later and says, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what needed to be done here was the reaction of the crowd. this is on january 6th when donald trump puts up that tweet saying mike pence didn't have the courage. >> i'm telling you what i'm hearing that pence, i'm hearing that pence just caved. >> is that true? >> i'm hearing reports that pence caved. i'm telling you, if pence caved, we're going to drag [ bleep ] through the streets. you [ bleep ] politicians are going to get [ bleep ] through the streets. >> i guess the hope is there's such a show of force here that pence will decide to do the right thing, according to trump.

[ chanting bring out pence ] >> and yet, olivia, pence resisted testifying, was subpoenaed to testify, and still resisted it. what do you make of the fact that now he's talking and has to tell the story >> first, look, i think it's good that he's testifying. i think it's critical. he is definitely the one person who knows everything that happened in those conversations. and i think the jury needs to hear it. i think this gives him sort of the, i would say, the judicial and political talk cover to be able to be forthcoming, finally. he may not state it publicly, although he did write about it in his book, but i think this gives him a little bit of leeway to say look, i was compelled i'm going to follow the law on this and tell the truth. i hope he did. i believe that he did. look, i was at that january 6th hearing when they played that

footage of how close that ugly horrific heinous mob came to him, and you know, at the end of the day, he was my boss for two and a half years and i had a vaseral reaction, not only that k knew him as a human being and his family was at risk and everyone else was, but that was a sitting vice president of the united states. that's something i keep going back to, our own u.s. president put at risk. that should never be discounted. and i -- to think this is the front-runner for the gop, that that person could come back into power, i think that is why this mike pence testimony matters so much in front of these americans, a jury of american peers. >> yeah. and the idea that other elected officials would already pre-emptively support him to be president again knowing what he did. paul, as a prosecutor, i wonder what you would want to know from pence the most pence has admitted at the gridiron dinner, he said high put my family at risk, he put me at risk. he admitted it when there were no cameras there

he has said a few things that shows he does understand he was in danger of dying that day. >> in his book, he wrote that he and trump had a close working relationship for four years, but it didn't end well how is that for an understatement i want to know the details about what he meant by that. prosecutors love grand juries. i have been in front of that d.c. grand jury many times they love it because it's their forum. the defense attorney isn't allowed, the regular rules of evidence don't apply as long as it's relevant, you can ask two questions. the first is, when you told trump that what he wanted you to do was unconstitutional, did he say i disagree, which would be a defense, meaning that he lacked criminal intent, or did he say, i don't care, do it anyway, which would implicate him in a criminal conspiracy of the highest order. the other question is about the violence that olivia referenced. pence's secret service detail on

january 6th were texting good-bye messages to their family members what did trump talk to pence regarding violence how much potential for violence was pence aware of what were the one-on-one conversations between pence and trump on violence about that day and before >> we know that there were phone calls in which donald trump got on the phone with pence and called him the p word, according to donald trump's daughter, ivanka and we know that pence was refusing to get into a car with secret service agents that weren't his personal detail. he said i don't know where you're going to take me. he understood the plot, exactly what was being asked of him. if you're looking at this just from a prosecutor's point of view, if they're at the point now where they're talking to pence, they have talked to marc short, talked to some of his other aides, does this tell you they're closer to make a decision, that jack smith is

getting to a conclusion if he's now essentially interviewed the primary potential victim >> it does there's nowhere else to go former president trump is not going to come to the grand jury, so this is the highest order, and this week, we learned that not only has the justice department prosecuted 1,000 people for crimes related to january 6th, they announced that they plan to prosecute another 1,000. that will be 2,000, but these are the little guys. and so the question is, can 2,000 people be forced to face criminal consequences but the person who seems to be the leader of the conspiracy escape accountability >> we're also waiting to find out what happens with the proud boys is that the fear among trump world, that pence being interviewed means this is coming to a conclusion, and what is it that they plan to do this man is running for president, he's not out there on the stump doing exactly there?

>> i think the trump legal team sees pence going in as basically the end of the investigation, or very near the end of the investigation. we've got a number of other trump administration officials who are yet to go in, people like nick luna and people who are in the inner circle, very, very close, who lost their legal challenges and won't have to testify. that being said, i think we should mention with pence that there was an order from jim boseberg, the chief judge in the district court here, who essentially gave him some narrow scope of speech and debate clause immunity. we don't know the exact parameters of that, but it is important because that does protect pence from having to testify effectively about any preparations he had done to go for january 6th, presiding over the senate, so that is important to remember. i think trump looks at all this and sees an investigation that is bearing down. >> and the part that the judge ruled that the speech and debate clause doesn't protect him from talking about crimes and i guess the question would

be from a national security standpoint, we have seen what donald trump can do when he just loses an election. what do you suspect is going on in terms of the national security apparatus of the country in the event that jack smith does indict donald trump >> look, i think there's concern. i had conversations with the fbi agents, i have had conversations amongst the national security. i think there is sort of a debate on what does this do to the country? will there be violence, what does this mean i don't know it will be culminated in one spot it's sort of a national level violence we have seen that galvanize in that way at the end of the day, let's think about this there are proud boys on trial this week, that's coming to an end. they all point to trump. >> yeah. >> they all say, i was there because he told me to be there i was there at his behest. they're trying to spin their defense, saying it's him so mike pence, this is your turn to say yeah. it was him >> we now know last word to you, paul, there was a second firm,

not just one firm, that told donald trump you lost, so we now have lots of evidence that he knew he lost, that he still pushed to do this. what are his chances of getting away without indictment giving the facts you know and that we know and that the january 6th commission brought forward >> i think the chances are slim to none. i can't imagine the conversations with jack smith about are you really going to bring the former vice president of the united states into the d.c. grand jury? you don't do that unless you mean it. >> unless there's something going on and there's also the fani willis case so much going on right now paul butler, olivia troye, hugo lowell, thank you very much. all right, coming up on "the reidout," trump accuser e. jean carroll we just mentioned faces a grueling cross-examination one day after testifying about her alleged rape by donald trump "the reidout" continues after this unting. i'm bill lockwood, current caretaker and owner.

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for a second day, writer e. jean carroll was on the stand in a new york courtroom in her civil trial against donald trump alleging he raped her inside a new york department store in the 1990s. following her emotional testimony yesterday where she recounted the alleged attack, today she faced a tough cross-examination. from trump's lawyer, joe tacopina, who tried to chip away at her credibility and compared almost every detail of what carroll testified to, to her past accounts of the alleged

rape, looking for inconsistencies. while trump has denied the allegations, you likely won't hear it from him, inside the courtroom. today is the deadline for trump's attorneys to let the judge know whether he will testify in person. we're still waiting to hear that decision joining me now are katie phang, msnbc legal analyst and host of the katie phang show, and adam reese, msnbc news producer who was in the courtroom today give us your recap, what did you see and hear i heard the testimony was pretty dramatic, the back and forth with joe tacopina and e. jean carroll. >> it really was, joy, but there really was no smoking gun, no bombshell. she kept to her story. she was really steadfast joe tacopina tried to cut through, tried to get her on inconsistencies, whether she remembered the day, the date, the time of the alleged rape how she may have changed her story from when she spoke to "the washington post" and "the new york times" or lawrence o'donnell here at msnbc. he just wasn't breaking through.

and the judge was not having it. the judge was very upset he was adamant that mr. tacopina was being repetitive and argumentative. there were numerous objections throughout the day, almost all of them were upheld by the judge. it got very emotional when she got to the point where the alleged rape took place in the dressing room at bergdorf goodman. she said you can't keep attacking me because i didn't scream i'm not a screamer i didn't scream. he raped me whether i screamed or not, she said she said it loudly, she was sobbing. it was a very emotional moment and now this is consistent with most experts that allege rape victims say that she didn't call the police, she didn't write about it in her diary, she said she didn't want to be reminded of it all the time she kept the dress and in fact, the jury kept their eyes on her the whole time the only time they looked down

is when it got very graphic, the descriptions of what happened inside that dressing room. >> wow, and yeah, that's what i was going to ask you, adam where were people looking? let me ask you this one little bit and then i'll ask katie about the same thing tacopina according to the notes that came from the courtroom, tacopina tried to portray ms. carroll as man hating, noting the premise of her book was men were a nuisance. she corrected him, the premise is men should be rounded up and sent to montana to be retrained. he gestured to all the men in the courtroom, all those men she said she meant it satirically, at thas point, the judge interrupted and said it comes from jonathan swift, a modest proposal, 700 years ago and she smiled during moments like that where tacopina was trying to portray her as a political activist or a man hater, there are six men on the jury, six or seven men on the jury what was their sort of reaction to that kind of interchange? >> there are six men and three

women. and there was a lot of banter back and forth there was fairly civil, but it did get pretty heated, and as i said, the judge was breaking in. but she did say, i don't hate men. i actually love men. and there was some chuckles within the courtroom but yes, it was -- the discourse was very combative at times. and the jury was picking up on it >> you know, and katie, those who have seen joe tacopina on ari melber's show, they know what he's like that's the personality you're getting. >> big and bombastic >> here's another one, just the en he says it louder comes then he says, there you go his tone gota female victim on the stand, how smart was it for donald trump's legal

team to use a male lawyer to cross-examine -- >> because there's a woman sitting with him >> elena hava, she could have done it, we don't know, right, but putting aside competency, joe tacopina is a trial lawyer i won't undercut that particular part of that concept or strategy, but you know, whenever we were looking or whenever you're trying a case before, for me, you would always want to say, how is this going to be perceived by the jury? is it going to be looking like this victim is being revictimized, which is exactly what happens when you're the victim of sexual assault you get revictimized when you have to tell the story over and over again to the police or now to a jury or a judge or even to the prosecutor for example if it's a criminal case when they're preparing you for the trial. so was it smart for donald trump's legal team to use big, i mean, and he's physically a big guy, joe tacopina. using a big male lawyer to cross-examine a woman when it comes to rape? now, it wasn't like he was physically imposing upon her,

but he clearly was trying to poke holes in her credibility and her testimony. but it wasn't working. >> and the question of why didn't you scream, just seems to be to be so offensive and sort of difficult are you surprised that the prosecution or that carroll's lawyers didn't push harder to voirdire a jury with more women on it. >> that's such a great question. when you're doing jury selection, and cases are won and lost in jury selection, and listen, i'll say this to you frankly. women can be more judgmental than men women can judge women more harshly. women can say, well, i wouldn't have dressed that way, or i wouldn't have gone into that room, that kind of thing so women sometimes can be more judgmental, but what i want to remind everybody who is tuning in, e. jean carroll just had to withstand and she continues to withstand cross-examination, it's going over to monday. tomorrow is a recess, it's going to monday. you have a woman who is in her late 70s she's had to basically take her

entire life and it's become a microcosm of scrutiny globally, nationally, audio and video, and we can't see what's going on because we don't have a camera in there, and she's had to almost defend the entirety of her life in those few minutes in court. if you can withstand that, i invite anybody to go through that scrutiny. it's almost impossible to do but she stood her ground and she emphatically said i was the victim of rape, and i have said this before. there's no one shoe fits all rape victim. or response to rape. so because she didn't scream, because she didn't call the police, because she didn't report it, because she didn't put it in a diary doesn't mean it didn't happen >> absolutely. having interviewed her myself, this is one strong lady, and if anyone can do this horrible, horrible thing that i think needs to be done as part of the me too movement. accountability is important. katie phang, adam reese, the very best. thank you very much. still ahead, tucker carlson speaks out for the first time

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it's been a rough week for fox, after the network let go of its star propagandist, tucker

carlson, a big chunk of their audience was not too far behind. the 8:00 show tuck 'ems used to host has seen about a 47% drop in viewership. while in turn, the even more extreme conservative channel newsmax has seen a boost their 8:00 p.m. hour has gone from just over 100,000 viewers to an audience of more than 500,000. which is just further proof that tucker leaving fox won't actually solve the larger issue at play here tucker was just one cog in this massive right-wing media machine that has spent decades spewing propaganda and spreading conspiracies, using anger and fear to create a cult-like audience that at times seems like they live in an alternate universe we saw it first hand with the big lie that fomented a violent insurrection at the capitol, with covid, a large part of the country still firmly believes the vaccines contain microchips or that the government created the pandemic in a lab. not to mention qanon families have been torn apart because the right wing echo

chamber has sucked them deep into these dark conspiracies and fox is probably just the biggest culprit. but this isn't new in fact, it started long before tucker and long before donald trump in 2015, jen sanko released a documentary titled the brainwashing of my dad, in which she shows how fox and the right wing propaganda machine transformed her father from a kennedy democrat into an angry, paranoid, bigoted political extremist, and she quickly found out she was not alone. >> they just drummed into her what they wanted her to hear she's a completely different person >> my brother became very fact resistance >> reaction was who are you and what have you done with my stepfather >> disjointing existence >> he was completely changed he was bitter and angry. >> at one point, he threatened to get a bus - >> became obsessed >> she had never been like that.

>> he was carrying a small pistol >> she was not hateful >> broke to heart to see my parents this way >> don't really know these people anymore >> just goes on these tirades. >> i spoken with each one and found we all had one thing in common someone close to us becamenraged and unreachable after excessively watching or listening to right wing media. >> joining me now is jen sanko who created the brainwashing of my dad, as well as the book by the same name. thank you for peag here. you documentary has been long recommended to me by friends who say you must watch this, you must read this it's so important to understand what fox news is doing to people what did fox do to your dad? what was he like before and after becoming a regular viewer? >> my father because almost like a prototype hippie he was so open-minded, so

kind-hearted, he was goofy he loved talking to strangers because he knew about seven different languages so, you know, he would talk to anybody he heard with an accent. but what happened is, one day he moved, well, they moved, my parents, semi retired, my father got a part-time job with a long commute. he found bob grant on the radio. so he was one of the first right-wing radio guys. and then after he fully retired, found rush limbaugh, and then he fell in love in man love with rush limbaugh and would listen for three hours a day, and then he found rush limbaugh buddies, and one of his buddies introduced him to fox. so it was like nonstop around the clock, and what happened is he became a different person it wasn't just his politics that changed. it was also his personality.

he was miserable he was angry all the time, enraged. he became a zealot he was like an evangelical, but for -- he tried to convert us all to republicans and it really hurt the family relationships. and at one point, my mother wrote me an email and said, jennifer, i might have to get an apartment, you know, like separated from my dad, and they got separate bedrooms. so it really hurt the relationship i don't know if you want to mention this, but he was eventually recovered >> he did? talk about that. what got him to stop watching? >> okay. so i think that this is really an important point because it says something about the power

of media, especially right-wing media. so ms moved again, and they moved to a senior community, and somehow in the move, the movers, like, broke his radio. so the radio ended up being in the garage so when he would have lunch, he didn't have rush limbaugh. immediately mellowed a little bit. you still had the emails, you still had fox, so he was still kind of a jerk, if i may say about my loving father but another thing that happened is my mom got a new tv in the kitchen, because it's a really old tv, and she loved programming the remotes, so she had stickies all over the remotes saying, press here, press there. and he didn't bother with it, so he just watched whatever she watched. >> he just detoxed

>> he started mellowing out a little bit more. >> let me quickly play for you, this is from your documentary, talking about the liberal media myth take a look. >> if you analyze news coverage as fair has done, you find that the news tilts a little bit to the right. it is sort of center right republicans usually outnumber democrats. it's just pure math. and people say why do so many people believe the liberal media math if you keep handing opinion shaping power to right wingers who don't have evidence to yell about the liberals, the liberals, the liberals it's going to have some traction >> the liberal media >> liberal media >> liberal bias. >> liberal press >> it is the liberal media >> i want you to talk about that, but i also want you to listen to the grandson of andrew lester, who sounds like his dad or his grandfather was like your dad. take a listen. >> feel like a lot of people of

that generation are caught up in this 24-hour news cycle of fear and paranoia, perpetuated by some other news stations, and he was fully into that, would sit and watch fox news every day all day blaring in his living room >> to bring those two things together, because a lot of people will say, all media is like that, all media is biased and people are getting the same rage from the quote/unquote liberal media as anything else, but as you mentioned, i don't know what this liberal media is. what do you make of that, there are people still being brainwashed by it, and this idea that people think all the media is the same? >> well, first of all, the media isn't liberal. i mean, we all know that if anything, it's corporate, because it's run by corporations, and you have ceos. but it really got engrained in people in fact, i was having lunch with a girlfriend the other day who is fairly liberal, and she called it the liberal media.

like no, it's not the liberal media. but also, i mean, there's an intention behind creating right-wing media the intention was to turn viewers, to turn a populous into republicans that would vote for in the interest of billionaires, and not in their own interests, not in their own economic interests, and that's why they invented culture wars. so yeah. >> i think it's worked i hate to say i think it has worked on far too many people. thank you for doing this documentary. everyone should take a look at your documentary thank youvery much coming up next, america's violent culture from the not so serious violence showcased by the recently departed jerry springer to the deadly serious maga extremism of the proud boys we're back in a second

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jerry springer, the tv icon and one-time big city mayor, died today at the age of 79. springer's tv show featured real americans, albeit dysfunctional ones who brawled before a raucous audience we're talking streaming matches, even fist fights, as titles like, i'm in love with my stepmom, and revenge threesome became ratings gold. america just ate it up >> today, on springer.

>> now look what you've done >> the hottest show on daytime tv doubling its audience after introducing a new format and featuring the uncontrolled outbursts. >> why are you sleeping with the same guy >> jerry springer has caught up to oprah, 6.5 million viewers a day, waiting for the next punch. >> springer was the ring master of the chaos, but before his talk show, she actually had a career in politics after law school at northwestern, he worked as a young adviser on the robert f. kennedy campaign before his assassination. he liter spearheaded the movement in ohio to lower the voting age from 21 to 18 during his early political career, he was embroiled in a type of scandal that would have fit in perfectly on his show he was found to have written a check for prostitution services at a massage parlor. he leaned into it, though, with

a full admission, and was re-elected to the city council and later served as mayor. it starts to make sense while his show debuted as a politically oriented program, until springer and his producers saw an opportunity to go tabloid, a move that helped him best oprah herself in the ratings. before the jerry springer show ended in 2018, jerry joined me on occasion on a.m. joy. here he is in 2017 talking about trump's tweets >> that is show business it doesn't belong in the white house. i don't think trump has any feeling about the dignity and the sacredness of where he is. >> springer also tweeted in 2016, hillary clinton belongs in the white house. donald trump belongs on my show. it is interesting commentary from someone who helped to normalize spectacle on a show that sometimes glorified violence the rabid consumption of springer tv exposed something profound about our culture

this is what america wanted. in the decades since the jerry springer show debuted, it has become clear, including with the explosion of reality tv, that millions of americans don't want nice they want nasty. they want spectacle and even violence and importantly, an audience it's no wonder the past decade saw a rise of gun culture, hateful political rhetoric, live streamed mass shootings and trigger happy political ads, and of course, the maga movement and all that comes with it >> you know what they used to do to guys like that when they were in a place like this they would be carried out on a stretcher, folks it's true. like to punch him in the face, i'll tell you. >> oh, get out of here get out of here. look at these people get out of here. get out! out out out! >> one of the far right groups that has come to personify the tendency of donald trump's america is of course the proud boys who crawled out of the woodwork

the year that trump ran for president. founded by gavin mcguiness, the same guy who created vice news, weirdly enough, but who also happens to be a hatemonger with overtly racist and xenophobic views. its most recent leader, enrique tarrio, who yes, is a black latino, counterprotested during a gathering to commemorate the first anniversary of the murder of george floyd. meaning he's the guy for derrick showman. what really put the proud boys on the map is when trump signaled to the group during one of the presidential debates, saying stand back and stand by it was widely interpreted as a call for the proud boys to be ready. it was an ominous prelude to the violence on january 6th. nothing cements this country's modern embrace of anti-democratic bloodshed than the capitol insurrection, and the proud boys played an essential role the trial is nearing an end and it comes as american violence is

at a fever pitch a jury will decide what if any responsibility the proud boys had for what happened that day, but perhaps the larger questions are, why america is so ripe for this kind of violence and will it ever end? history professor kathleen bulieu joins me next to try to answerha tt question step one: feed them with miracle-gro shake 'n feed. that's it. miracle-gro. all you need to know to grow.

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leader enrique tarrio and four

lieutenant has gone to the jury the justice department said at closin the january 6th attack joining me now is kathleen blue, associate professor of history at northwestern university let's talk first specifically, thank you for being here, abou the kind of defense of it wa all kind of a game that is what enrique's defense was donald trump's words, hi motivation, his anger that caused the mob to attack congress on january 6th, sai his defense lawyer he was, quote, an entertainer, a lover, and a razzle-dazzle or not a ringleader, i surpris anybody's as razzle-dazzle i 2023 the idea that that kind of violence, and the proud boys just a violent club, but tha is something they thought they could do, what does that say about our society? >> you know, the proud boy have mounted this kind of line of defense for many acts o violence across the years. sort of saying, it's performative, or hazing, o just kind of a rowdy fraternity

that is not the movement tha they are part of we can recognize the proud boy as part of a long trajectory o militant right, and white powe style groups going all the way back to the 19 80s and these groups have a very clear mission of trying to interfere with or overthrow th united states government and attack its institutions and it people so, i think it is disingenuous to say the least but this bigger question about why now? why are we ripe for this kin of violence and subculture and even for that subculture t burst into the mainstream? i think it's exactly the right kind of question i think part of it does have t do with our media, the way our media has transformed ou politics, and thinking about these through lines from jerry springer to donald trump int the mainstream it's exactly the trajectory would point to the other one is the lon aftermath of warfare

we know from the historica record, extremist groups lik the proud boys, gain ground in the aftermath of warfare we are now in the aftermath of this incredibly long protracte global war on terror we don't yet know how this aftermath period is going to shape up, we know that it will impact violence on the hom front. >> yeah, just to give you -- this wasn't a club they were texting, if bide steal the election, we won't g quietly. no trump, no peace they're orchestrating a plan t turn up in record numbers on january 6th. they document detailed plans t surveil and stormed government buildings. they took credit for the insurrection after it wa unfolding, saying, we did this is it strange to you that th leader of a white nationalis style group is black because enrique tarrio is. he's a black latino. is that of >> so, yes and no. the claims on whiteness or

historically constructed i very contingent, there's all kinds of reasons why different people are welcome in thes groups at different times. most of them are opportunistic reasons. so, these groups, and by that mean white power groups, are interested in using whatever kind of memberships an opportunities are available to them in order to do what the would like to do, which is usually, to establish a whit ethnostate we should be thinking about th proud boys, the oath keepers and other public facin manifestations of this movement, as connected with each other and as part of a big, broa ground swell the story we tell about th proud boys should be in th same breath as talking about airman jack to share a, wh seems to be involved in this ideology before sharin military intelligence with others and possibly, plotting violenc as of the charging documents that came out this week. it should be in the same breat

as thinking about undergroun activity like that of adam - of the base. and other groups that ar interested in promotin violence in those ways we should also be thinking about how this interfaces with our political mainstream so, for activists in this kind of a movement, you know, president trump's decision t have a campaign rally in waco, texas, that's about more tha just the meeting of waco i terms of being vaguely ant government or vaguely anti federal government to these activists, that connects directly to a violent history that includes th oklahoma city bombing. this is all part of th cohesive ideology and th socially networked movemen that goes back decades, if not generations. >> and now, we have a situatio where domestic terrorism increased by 357% between 2013 and 2021 and multiple countries hav warned their citizens abou

traveling to the united states because of gun violence. australia, canada, germany japan, new zealand are equations, well. is the u.s., based on ou history, based on the violence of our founding, are w uniquely susceptible to this kind of violent movements? >> not uniquely susceptible, but these kind of violen movements have been much mor successful in the united states, in getting weapons and materia that was designed for warfar into civilian spaces >> it's the guns, as usual it's the access. there is no country wher civilians have 400 plus millio firearms at home, stas wherever, and the kind o lethal capabilities that are civilians have in their hopped up on this kind of rage. it is kind of writing. it is more than kind o frightening. kathleen, always appreciate you, thank you so much for bein here that is tonight's read out, ow chris hayes starts now >>