crazy, wild, silly >> revolutionary the 1990s wit a jerry springer show, the 7 year old who died today afte battling pancreatic cancer was a cultural phenomenon. whose popularity transcended generations. the show was also panned b critics. >> i would like to apologize i ruined the culture >> springer was a journalist the mayor of cincinnati, and considered a run for u.s senate at which he discussed with lester. >> do you like politics? >> i always have anyone knows me, knows that' what i talk about. sports and politics. >> but it was his main sho that cemented his tv legacy, h was joyful, smart, and in hi own way, our unique showman wh wrote more imposed itch. >> what do you miss most about jerry? >> his friendship. i love the guy you can always count on him. >> often at the center o raucous drama, at his cour jerry springer loved people,

his signature sign of always sincere. >> until next time, take car of yourself and each other >> miguel, nbc news. >> well said jerry, we will do our best, rest in peace my friend and on that note i wish you al a very good and safe night from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late wit me i will see you at the end of tomorrow >> it was a big test for the vice president of the united states, a test of hi competence and his fitness t serve as second in command just a heartbeat away from the presidency and in that momen the vice president failed. he failed to spell the wor potato [inaudible

[inaudible >> that was former vic president, dan quayle in 199 adding and e to the end of potato a lesson for all kids and ♪ ♪ ♪ adults everywhere there is n easy at the end of the world potato i myself remember at the tim vowing never to spell potato run again. for a single moment, and yea moments like that and da quayle a reputation as a bumbling vice president, maybe not the sharpest tool in the shed, but in late december o 2020 than mike pence, wa desperate.

donald trump refused to conced the election, having clearly lost to joe biden. and trump was putting pressure on the vice president to use his ceremonial role, to deny president biden's victory an instead falsely proclaimed trump the winner of the 2020 election, so mike pence called one of the few people on thi earth who had ever held that ceremonial role before, he called dan quayle. this is from bob woodward an robert castor's book, peril. quote, he asked if there's anything he could do mike, you have no flexibilit on this, none, zero, put i away quayle told him. hans pressed again you don't know the position i' in, pence said i do know the position here and, quayle responded i also know what the law is. you listen to th parliamentarian, that is all that you do you have no, power the man who could not spell th word potato, acting as a voice of reason.

how we underestimated you, dan quayle, during this period vic president mike pence, he was obviously frantically seekin advice from experts, eventuall he called michael luttig, former judge and deepl respected journalist in th conservative movement. he told pence the same thing pence had zero authority t change the outcome of th election by early january, pence and hi lawyers were in the white hous openly arguing with trump an his lawyer, john eastman about whether or not the vic president had the authority to do what trump wanted, here was pence aide, greg jacob testimony to the general six committee about that ver specific theory. >> a review of text, history and frankly just common sens all confirm the vice president first instinct on that point there is no justifiable basi to conclude that the vic president has that kind of authority.

>> president trump continued t pressure pence, both publicl and privately. and january 4th, trump ratcheted up the pressure at a rally in georgia >> and i hope that mike penc comes through for us i hope that our great vice president, our great vic president comes through for us he is a great guy. >> on january 5th, trump kep at it tweeting that the vice president has the power to reject fraudulently electe electors -- called pence won last time, an by all accounts trump wa furious. listen to what aides of th president told the january six committee. >> did you hear any part of th phone call, even just the en of which the president was speaking from? >> i did yes >> what did you hear >> as i was dropping off the note in my memory, i remembe hearing the word when.

he called him a wimp and i remember that he said yo will be a wimp, when is th word that i remember and he said the wording is wrong, i made the wron decision for five years ago. >> and the word that the president called the vic president, i apologize for being in polite but do you remember what she said when the father called him >> the b-word? >> a wimp, the p-word. those where the words that tha then president of the united states used to describe his ow vice president, and when the moment came pence prepared t do what his oath, and by the way what the u.s. constitution required him to do and that wa when a mob of violent trum supporters began to descend on the capitol, and president trump tweeted out one fina missive about his vice president. quote, mike pence didn't hav the courage to do what shoul have been that the mob got the message. >> i tell you what i'm hearing

aren't, i'm hearing that pence just caved is that true i'm hearing reports that pence caved, i'm telling you if penc caved were gonna drag [bleep through the streets. you politicians are gonna ge [bleep] through the streets. >> there is such a show of force here that pence will decide to do the right thing according to trump [crowd chanting] >> bring out pence >> during the january si hearing, the nation got glimpse of just how close th mob came to mike pence that day, the vice president was escorte out of the chamber, he was taken down to a loaded dark in the basement of the capito where he refused to get into a waiting, armored limousine because he was aware that th secret service may take hi away from the capitol, might stop him from doing the thin that he knew that he had to do

since then, mike pence has spoken carefully and sparingly about what happened leading up to january 6th, he wrote a boo about his experience that left readers with more question than answers about what trul happened that day and speeches and in tv interviews h obliquely reference his fina days with the former president like this was -- where pence recapped the exchange between him and his former boss in the morning o january 6th. >> i picked up the phone and the president asked me where i was on the electoral count tha would take place that day and told him despite what yo issued last night in you campaign mister president. i've been very clear i do not have the authority to reject votes during th electoral count or return thos votes to the state and it went downhill from there. the president became very irat on the phone and he said i

that was true that he made a mistake five years ago >> up until today, those where the few public utterances that effectively where the only firsthand accounts from mike pence and they were all federa investigators had to go on until now. this morning shrouded in a motorcade of black cars, the former vice president entered federal courthouse to testif before a federal grand jury, and an investigation into th man that he spent four years serving. mike pence was there for mor than several hours, so yes, mean mike pence wrote a book about what happened and yes he talked about it in t interviews, yes he has repeatedly soft shoot around i in speeches but this is th first time that this vic president or any vice presiden has sat down, under oath behind closed doors and told the department of justice abou the extraordinary position tha he was in during one of th

most extraordinary moments i american history joining us now is congressma adam schiff, who served as a member of the january 6t committee, congressman schif thanks for joining us tonight, there is no one i would rather talk to about thes developments in this moment, i'm wondering how you ar looking at this in the broader lens of history, the precedent being set, the fact that a vic president has gotten to th department of justice to testify before the departmen of justice for the actions o the president he formall served to potentially undermin democracy. >> well it is a historic moment, certainly unprecedented and i' glad it's taken place, we were deeply frustrated at the january six committee that the would not come and testify before the committee and that we did not have the luxury of time to compel him t do that. he needed to tell a story, needed to tell an under oath so one thing as you point ou to go to carefully, catche words.

the special counsel want t allow that he's going to have to be fully forthcoming, and i think tha it signals that this is coming near the end of the specia counsel's investigation. more than anything else, to me it's an affirmation of the rul of law, still working in thi country. a vice president cannot hide behind falsified privilege, or the political expedience about not wanting to testify about somebody popular in that party it's not a good enough reaso to do your duty, and the court would uphold that subpoena, an compel them to speak unprecedented, certainly ver important to investigation, an also invalidates the rule of law. >> of course, the rule of law. with your deep familiarity o the events of january 6th, wha would you ask the vice president? what do we not know that w need to know about the run u on january 6th and the day o itself >> i can say, as a forme

member of the january 6t committee, and also as a forme prosecutor, with the justice department will be mos interested in is what th presidents state of mind was what was his intent? if you look at some of the powerful testimony, when donal trump is on the phone, top justice department officials he goes through these claims o fraud in the elections, -- and the justice department people show them what down one after another, say there's n there there, we looked int that, that wasn't true what does the president say? he says, just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressman. that is powerful evidence of intent the prosecutors of a special counsel, they will b interested in what other powerful evidence of the presidents malign intent's culpability in mike pence' testimony. did he acknowledge to mike pence, as you know in his ow top justice department officials, that he knew thes

claims of fraud were false that he knew these didn't have the authority to do what h wanted if, the report for example, if the reports are accurate if yo are two on us to do what i wan you to do. that's an admission that h knows what it would require, deception in line. i think that it's intent tha they will go ahead for sure. >> firsthand account of th presidents intent seems to b very valuable in this. i do wonder, because mike penc tried to fight off the subpoen by invoking the speech and debate clause, and som questions are going to be of the table for prosecutor because the judge has grante limited privilege, if you will about the account -- because of that debate clause. how do you see that hamperin of potential lines o questioning? do you think that there are ke moments in and around januar 6th that the doj cannot as about?

>> i think that it will have very limited bearings on wha the justice department needs t know most of the damage is done before the conversations wit the president, before he presided over that session, th speech and debate class, eve arguably applying. some of those prio conversations with the president in december, other in january, even the morning o before mike pence watched that chamber. i don't think there's an privilege that applies, and so i think they will be ver limited in what they can ask and with the precedent tha would be required to answe those questions. and i assume that he did and so i don't think that it's going to adversely impact th prosecution at home. >> your lawyer, like a good tw leaves i know mike pence said h didn't want to testify, bu he's put so much at. there is top aides hav testified in front of the gran jury do you think he's ready to tell-all behind closed doors is there a chance that any o this will come out for publi consumption at some point?

>> he resisted telling what he knew, and he resisted with our committee. he resisted until he was compelled to by the court. mike pence is thinking about mike pence, thinking about his presidential, campaign but one thing that he's not required t do that might alienate any o the trump voters and so, i'm sure the special counsel will have to pry everything up, and what they needed and so i don't think that this was mike pence deciding, okay, here's the time to go forward, and i think this was the momen when mike pence was still, you're going to have to star your presidential campaign aside, you're going to have to tell the truth, the whole trut and nothing but the truth. >> the idea that mike pence is still trying to court trum supporters, i'm not going to comment on that logic. but anyway, we will wait to se what comes out of all this congressman adam shift, than you so much -- go ahead >> it's potato logic >> it's potato logic

>> i'm just harking back to bu -- >> i see what you did. thank you so much congressma for making the time tonight. >> a pleasure. >> joining us now is devli barrett, national security law enforcement reporter for the washington post. devlin, thank you for making some time to chat for what i going down here. i just wonder if you are reading anything into the fact that the vice president spok in front of that grand jury fo seven hours today. >> right, so we know it was significant time, amount o time that he spoke we also knew that there ha been a lot of legal buildup to get to this moment i think what you can read ou of that is that mike pence was one of the boxes tha prosecutors needed to check to finish their investigation i'm not saying they ar finished, but he is an important part of this, becaus there's a bunch of important conversations that they need t do everything they can togethe all the evidence they can abou those conversations. >> i think everybody is asking this question about what is th

signal in terms of the timelin of this special counsel probe. and i wonder if you have any if you have a thesis on that i know some people said look this is the end, but tha doesn't mean we're going t have a charging decision comin up anytime soon. how do you read this in th grand scheme of what jack smit is doing here? >> i don't think we can predic the future out of this i do think we can say that the had to do everything the could. the prosecutors had to d everything they could to get this story of the trum conversations and eastma conversations with mike penc from mike pence. they have it from other people but they have to check every box and mike pence is a bi important box for them i also think you can think o this in terms of, specia counsel investigation is covering a lot of differen ground, a lot of different directions so i think when it comes t conversations inside the white

house, conversations directl connected to the president himself on the issue of th file tabulation of votes getting mike pence's testimony means that they are close to gathering all of that type o evidence but there are still lots o other categories of evidence that they have to get him to g through. >> i do wonder, mike pence has spoken in recent days, i think as recently as monday, about the lawyers that wer surrounding president trump. if we have time to play, tha can we please do that? >> is there anything that yo could tell the grand jury that either the former president or a member of senior staff, that you saw and observed, committe crime? >> well, you know, i just don' know, leland, if it's criminal to take bad advice fro lawyers. this was an instance, as i wrote about at great length in my memoir, where in th immediate days leading up to january 6th, i saw a cast of characters, lawyers, tha frankly should never have been

allowed on the white house grounds, giving the presiden council that was just simply not grounded in history or the constitution and the law so we will comply with a law we will tell our story >> this seems to be sort of, like, the convenient middl ground for pants, to admit tha bad things were done, but tr and shift the blame to the lawyers. having said that, i mean, ho do you rate the peril th potentially john eastman and rudy giuliani may be in, given what the vice president saying in fact that he testified in front of a grand jury and is likely to have talked abou those bad lawyers? >> i think could see a lot o ways in which the prosecutor are looking closely at peopl like john eastman and rudy giuliani that's clear i think mike pence is anothe avenue of gathering that kin of evidence. so i think that is important but i also think what penc said in that clip is important in this sense. i don't necessarily think of mike pence as, i don't assum

that that evidence i particularly damaging to donal trump. mike pence may even, as witness, try to help donal trump. but i think the experience o mike pence, overall, i important evidence for the entirety of this case, and the entirety of what prosecutors have to decide, as to whethe there are criminal charges here >> do you think, devlin, tha what pence is behind close doors, is eventually going t come out assuming, i suppose if there i eventual prosecution, there's high likelihood that we're going to find out what he says right? >> right if there were a trial on any subject, presumably would ge an understanding about wha mike pence said in grand jur jury i think frankly with high-profile investigation like this, there is a high chance that at some point this version will come out. but mike pence has been very adamant that my private versio will be the same as my publi version. >> the only difference, though is he is saying it under oath, and the doj can ask some follow-up questions, which i a sure they will have devlin barrett, thank you for making the time tonight.

we have a lot more to ge through this evening what is happening to the fox news audience know that tucker carlson is no longer on thei airwaves plus, lawyers for donald trump want, wrote a detailed lette asking for the doj to basicall close up shop on tha mar-a-lago investigation and wait till you hear who trump's lawyers sent tha letter to. that's next. with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. feel the difference with downy. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? we're always working on a project. while loading up our suv, one extra push and... crack! so, we scheduled at safelite.com. we were able to track our technician

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introducing astepro allergy. now available without a prescription. astepro is the first and only 24-hour steroid-free spray. while flonase takes hours, astepro starts working in 30 minutes. so you can [ spray, spray ] astepro and go. we moved out of the city so our little sophie could appreciate nature. but then he got us t-mobile home internet. i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? >> here's what donald trump'

what, we have a ton of mulch. lawyers are demanding happen t the special counse investigation into trump's mishandling of classifie documents down at mar-a-lago quote, the department of justice should be ordered to stand down stand down

that was the conclusion of a new ten-page letter from trump 's lawyers nothing to see here, just shut the whole thing down now criminal defense attorneys regularly appear before judges and argue that the charges against their clients should b dropped or that an investigation infringes on their clients rights but trump's lawyers did no address that in a letter to th judge, nor did they addres that letter to the departmen of justice they didn't send it to a judge they didn't send it to do th doj. that plea for relief fro donald trump's legal team wa addressed to a republica member of congress pecifically to the republica chair of the house intelligenc committee. and that is highly unusual but trump's legal team i asking here for congress t interfere with an independen criminal investigation in their letter, the lawyers argue that it wasn't trump's fault that this classified documents ended up a mar-a-lago it was white house staffers an deep state government employee who were to blame. but as the washington post reported back in august, trump saw himself, trump himself

oversaw the collection o documents that were sent t mar-a-lago that is not the only questionable part of thi latter throughout it, trump's lawyers attempt to blur the lines by basically ignoring the key allegations against mr. trump, like, for example, the trump obstructed investigators i their attempts to retrieve documents, that it took a year to get 15 boxes of highl sensitive documents back and it also took a subpoena an a raid to get the other hundre and three classified documents that were also in trump' possession no need to mention all of thos other details in the letter. nothing to see, folks. that letter from trump's lawyers to the top republica on house intelligence committee, it was also sent to congressma jim hangs, ranking democrat on that committee, and a member o the gang of eight. and as a result, congressman hines has seen some of these documents after the grou gained access to them two week ago. joining us now to discuss al this, in congressman jim himes

himself, member of the house intelligence committee congressman, thank you for joining me tonight i wonder if i am in some way reading this wrong, but on its face, this effectively seems like a letter that is asking republicans to override th separation of powers that is outlined in our constitution is it not? yeah, that's right on a couple of occasions i that letter the lawyers say th department of justice to b ordered to stop thei investigation. it's bizarre these are lawyers. they know that there is no circumstance under which the congressman intelligence committee or the chairman of the intelligence committee has any authority to order, an frankly, massively improperly. not surprising, but massivel improper to imagine politica players, and in this buildin we're all political players, should get involved in questions around prosecution again, not surprising, right this is sort of a hallmark o donald trump but the latter is also full of such misrepresentations that i i read it i thought, these lawyers should probably pu them into some jeopardy by suggesting that biden di exactly the same thing, whic

of course is absolutely no true, suggesting that th national archives didn't try t help donald trump, which is no true so again, classic trump lega strategy of creating as much uncertainty and doubt and fear you possibly can >> do you think that the lawyers are emboldened by th behavior of jim jordan, who is effectively opening an investigation at the bidding o trump's defense team into th manhattan d. a.'s criminal investigation into trump i mean, the separation o powers question, or the role o congress in an oversight capacity, has been breached by in, one investigation, so hey, couldn't we do it here, as well? do you think that will have an effect on this >> maybe so, but again, ji jordan cannot be held to tas by the bar so ca shun or b judges for his behavior. he is of course protected by being a political figure, doin supposedly what passes for his job. lawyers of course can be hel accountable by judges, and w have seen that with any number of the council that, is mike pence so

memorably said in your previou segment, was giving donald trump very bad advice. so look, at the end of the day i think these lawyer understand that they are dealing with a very seriou situation, and very seriou special prosecutor with a se of facts that is prett uncomfortable to them. and i know that they feel like those set of facts up agains the law is an uncomfortabl thing because they are doing these games, these pr stones that frankly make absolutely n sense, but again, it sort of a classic attribute of the whole trump show which is create a much dust and uncertainty an fear as you possibly can and hope for the best. >> when you talk about the seriousness of thi investigation into the documen retention down at mar-a-lago you are one of the few peopl who have actually laid eyes on these documents. we know from reporting tha some of the documents that you have likely seen include material enough for ou

nation's nuclear capabilities, papers with secrets about chin and iran, briefing for foreign leaders ahead of calls wit foreign leaders. and maps containing sensitiv intelligence i know that you cannot tal about what you have seen but i there a way that you can broadly characterize the material that was taken from mar-a-lago >> i certainly cannot get into the details, but i could tel you knowing generally what was in the material, not just at mar-a-lago, but what was required by vice pence's residents, and what wa recovered from president biden's offices, it is serious stuff. it is really serious stuff and frankly anything that is classified as potentiall serious stuff. and look just think about th way that just ten days ago people in this building were lighting their hair on fir over the leaks on this intelligence unit in cape cod, massachusetts by this airman everyone was lightin themselves on fire over that a lot of these same people whe highly classifieddocuments were found at mar-a-lago

they were saying how classifie was? it where they really classified? if it was classified it wa potentially damaging to th national security of the unite states and i can tell you based o knowing what was in there that some of the stuff could be really really damaging where it t find its way or wear it to hav found its way into the hands o our adversaries or frankly anyone else. >> when you talk about how damaging it is to national security in a letter the trump lawyer say basically shut down this probe, have them to an assessment about thi classified material. but the intelligence committee is already doing its investigation into how damagin this breach of nationa security is. being in the wrong place i terms of national security do we have any sense of wher that investigation is? and when we will hav conclusions about the value of these documents to america safety >> yes, so that americans ca investigation of damag assessment has gone on for u

quite some time, and we've got some preliminary judgments about what the answer may be there, but this is tough, serv there's a lot of documents there in what you care about i not what the document said, bu when you came to know thes things, whether it was a mechanism or maybe a person, human intelligence source, you really need to go back and say could the russians or whoeve work their way backwards t that source? that is a matter of life and death for humans, and frankl it's a matter of life and deat for technical collection to ge compromised. >> congressman jim hines thank you for making the time tonight, we look forward to hearing mueller as this all unfolds. >> thank you >> we still have more to com this evening including another dramatic day on the witnes that as eugene carroll faces off against donald trump lawye over the accusation that trump raped her. plus, after firing tucke carlson fox news gets a dose o

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doubled from what was alread an election season high. every other major news outle lost huge swaths of viewers, which makes sense. the election was over. but newsmax was surging. at the end of the month thei audience was nearly ten time its preelection size the network's secret sauce was that it was immediately all in on trump's big lie fox news executives, well, the were getting nervous on november 10th, fox news president jay wallace texted foxes ceo, suzanne scott the newsmax surge is a bit troubling. it is truly an alternative universe when you watch, but i can't be ignored scott replied, yes, and wallac followed up by texting, trying to get everyone to comprehend, we are on war footing. and they're now settle defamation lawsuit against fox news, dominion alleged tha this fear, foxes fear that the were losing their audience t newsmax, that that was the

thing that drove fox to star pushing the big lie themselves dominion alleges that fo executives pushed for thei shows to tell fox viewers what they wanted to hear, regardles of the truth it was something they referred to internally as, respecting the audience on november 19th, the fox whit house correspondent go chastised by her boss fo fact-checking rudy giuliani' election fraud claims. she was told she had to do a better job respecting th audience on november 24th, fox host sea hannity texted his producers respecting this audience whether we agree or not, i critical fox has spent the mont spitting at them now, today, fox news finds itself in a similar position t the one it was in in the hours after the 2020 election. on monday night, the first night since the network parted ways with its star, tucker carlson, his old hour, 8 pm, was down 20% in total viewers. on tuesday, it was down nearly 50%. meanwhile, newsmax is surging. again, monday's 8 pm show ha more than triple its norma

audience the big story over there o newsmax? how fox news ditching tucker carlson shows that fox news is too far left so the question now is how fox decides to regain the respec of its audience. coming up next, what trump's lawyer did to try to discredit e. jean carroll, and what this says about the extraordinary times in which we are living that is next ...designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder - that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that... ...i need a breakthrough card... like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more... plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases! and with greater spending potential,

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and installed new wipers to protect our new glass. that's service on our time. >> today in a manhattan federa >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ courtroom, e. jean carroll too the stand for a second day t testify in her civil battery and defamation lawsuit against former president donald trump. now carroll says trump raped her in a new york department store in the 1990s, an allegation that trump ha repeatedly publicly denied calling it a hoax and a lie an a scam to kick off cross-examinatio today, trump's defense lawyer, joe tacopina, followed his client's lead. he peppered miss carroll wit questions that appeared to b aimed at showing her to be a fame hungry financially an politically motivated liar during his opening statement o tuesday, mr. tacopina asked th jury, it all comes down to d you believe the unbelievable and that has been his strategy thus far focus on the idea of plausibility

mr. tacopina spent a lot o time to be highlighting miss carroll this carroll man relax is why miss carroll didn't call the police why she didn't see doctor after the assault, wh shouldn't go to the hospital and after she testified that she used her need to try t push trump away during the attack, tacopina asked wha part of her knee she used. prompting carroll to stand u in front of everyone and demonstrate exactly how she di it later, mr. tacopina asked wh carroll she didn't scream or call for help during the alleged assault. she responded, i'm not a screamer you can't beat up on me for no screaming. as tacopina continue pressing, carroll raised her voice and added, i'm telling you, he raped me, whether a screamed o not. mr. tacopina insisted he was only asking questions, but mis carroll called him out for

asking the questions tha victims fear the most. quote, women who don't com forward, one of the reason they don't come forward is the are asked why they didn' scream some women scream, some wome don't. it keeps women silent. carroll is not the only one wh didn't appreciate this line of questioning. judge louis kaplan calle certain questions argumentativ and repetitive he also interrupted mr tacopina several times demanding that he clarify an move on. despite those admonishments, tacopina's questions became so badgering, touching on subject matter that both parties agree previously was off limits, tha judge kaplan decided he ha enough the judge interjected one last time and then dismissed th jury while mr. tacopina was in the middle of a question about the dress miss carroll wore on the day of the assault this is that exchange. mr. tacopina, even though yo

didn't keep an account of hi alleged rape in your diary, yo did keep the dress you supposedly wore that day carroll, yes >> didn't throw it out >> didn't burn it? >> now i would never burn a beautiful item of clothing judge kaplan we're gonna break here for the day. we will return on monday at te a. m.. and that was that. joining us now is new york times columnist author in msnb contributor, michelle goldberg michelle, so good to see you i found so much of the transcript, what was said in court today, riveting an extraordinary and distressing. one of the most sort o excruciating exchanges but als in lightning was e. jean carroll's description of how she thought about this, what she calls rape, in the moments after it happened. for people who haven't rea this, i want to read thi description in this exchange between her and mr. tacopina carroll testified she though that trump was going to, w were in a laundry part o bergdorf bergman, and sh thought trump was gonna try on the grand jury himself she thought was a funn

interaction. and then everything change when they get to the dressin room and that's where she says trum raped her. and then miss carroll says o the stand, i was going to tell my friend lisa the story, whic i thought was hilarious, and i got to the point where i had t tell lisa that trump pulle down my tights and before i said that, lisa had to tell me to stop laughing my mind i think i woul slightly disordered it disoriented. tacopina says, you just said miss carroll that you were going to tell lisa a story tha was hilarious? >> yes >> so you thought the story of being raped by donald trump -- >> no i didn't think that stor was hilarious. i thought that story was tragic i wanted to tell lisa because hope lisa would tell me oh no, eugene, it's okay, it's okay it's all right but when i heard the words when lisa said he raped you,

those were the words tha brought the reality to m forefront of my mind there is so much that societ puts on women in the aftermath of alleged sexual assaults and this goes so far i explaining the complexity of emotions, where you don't want to believe what just happene to you is actually rape. i found it just remarkably frank. how did you read it? >> i would say to. things yes, remarkably frank and just remarkably real i think that in that moment yo are so stunned, you are so, yo think, is this really happening? could this be really happening and you don't want to believ it what really strikes me, though is the bizarre full circle nature of this moment. when you think about me too, m too started, i think, in response to donald trump's presidency there were women all over this

country who were so angry, the felt so demeaned, so degrade that this president had been elected and it was very little they could do about it and so they went after the abusers, kind of lower down th totem pole they went after the abusers in their own lives an institutions and institution where they had some kind o power and influence. it kicked off this hug movement that eventually catalyzed e. jean carroll to tell her only two story. and brings us to this moment when donald trump is finally being held to account, o potentially held to account fo the abusive of women that he has been accused of, and these are women that in some cases h has boasted about. but in this questioning, it is almost as if metoo didn' happen it's almost as if all of the reckoning and public dialogu that we have had about why victims don't act in the way that people who watch too much

too many crime documentaries think they should act, why their own act that way and yet, why sort of sexua assault often doesn't play out the way people imagine tha it's going to play out and why that doesn't make it any les traumatic. it's almost as if none of that has actually happened with thi attorney >> yeah, i thought the exact same thing the idea that we're in thi pre-metoo moment where so much has been unearthed about the ways in which we doubt women when they tell us things this notion of women a unreliable narrators when it comes to their own bodies. a lot of that was debunked i the aftermath of metoo and yet this is kind of jurassic version of american society where none of that that chapter didn't unfold, an that we didn't have a sort o come to jesus moment where i was like, you should believe women when they tell you things i just wonder if you think it' going to work as a tactic. the judge seems really skeptical of mr. tacopina' line of questioning. >> i cannot, i can't predict

whether it will work i think new york city is a cit that has a no love lost fo donald trump but i think we have made som progress since me to, bu people still love to doubt women. we saw some of these, simila questions being put to amber heard. why didn't you go to the hospital and the defamation case th johnny depp brought agains her. and the jury bought it and so i think that the reason it lawyers have tried to impug the credibility of rape victim is because people ofte reflectively doubt women's tails of abuse and the way tha they don't reflexive lee doubt other crime victims talkin about things that happen t them >> and certainly the leading trend right now, especiall among republican lawmakers, is to not believe women when they are talking about things tha

happened to their own body o the subject of abortion. there are states now where foreman wants to have an abortion because she says sh has been raped, she has to hav a police report to back it up. i think in florida, idaho, wes virginia, georgia georgia an utah, it feels like a course correction from the years -- from when we took what women said about sexual assault at face value >> it underlines how much of a exception that was, how much the kind of strange unusua moment it was, how quick and eager people were to return to a kind of pre-metoo or eve very pre metoo status quo, where women's word, wher women's words were simply wors worth less than men's. are >> what we do now is tha this trial is not yet over this is new york city. is not another part of the country. and the trial is still unfolding. michelle goldberg, thank you s

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tonight. i will see you again tomorrow. and now it is time for the las word, with ali velshi, in fo lawrence good evening, ali. >> i was gonna say