then this morning, another ancient tradition, the stone of destiny, used in coronations for centuries, leaving scotland and heading south. >> kelly, thank you very much. and that is going to do it for me today. it's friday! "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪ ♪ hi, everyone. happy friday. it's 4:00 in new york. there are two things that happened yesterday that underscore how the threat to our democracy that made itself most visible on january 6th endures. and how it just might, very soon, come up against the push for accountability. "the washington post" reports that donald trump on thursday praised and embraced a woman convicted of defying police

orders on the u.s. capitol grounds on january 6th. "listen, you just hang in there," donald trump told the woman, who was found guilty on a misdemeanor charge of resisting police efforts to clear grounds. "you guys are going to be okay." trump, who is campaigning in new hampshire, then agreed to sign the backpack she said she carried to the capitol complex on the day of the interruption of the congressional proceedings to certify trump's loss in the 2020 election. just hours before the ex-president and gop front-runner literally embraced an insurrectionist, you can't make that up territory now, a member of the mob that chanted "hang mike pence" a watershed moment took place someplace else. as we reported yesterday during this hour, the former vp mike pence testified before a federal

grand jury. "the new york times" posted, it's not clear what testimony he provided thursday, but prosecutors were surely interested in pence's accounts of his interactions with trump, and trump advisers, including john eastman, a lawyer who promoted the idea that they could use the congressional certification process on january 6th to give trump a chance to remain in office. pence's testimony could help prosecutors grasp what would be a vital building block of any potential criminal case against the ex-president. his state of mind. here's what adam schiff has to say about that right here on this network. >> if you look at some of the testimony we elicited of when donald trump is on the phone with top justice department officials, people he appointed, he goes through all of these claims of fraud in the election, and the justice department people shoot them down one after another, say thing's no there there. we looked into that. that wasn't true. what does the president say?

he says, just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressman. that's powerful evidence of intent, and the prosecutors will be interested in what other powerful evidence of the president's intent, his culpability is in mike pence's testimony. that is, did he acknowledge to mike pence, as he acknowledged to his own top justice department officials, that he knew these claims of fraud were false, that he knew mike pence didn't have the authority to do what he wanted. if for example the report saw that he told pence, you know, you're too honest to do what i want you to do, that's an admission that he knows it would require deception and lying. >> special counsel jack smith closing in on an ex-president and republican front-runner, intent on whitewashing january 6th is where we begin today. former congresswoman elaine moyer is here, a former member

of the january 6th collect committee. tim hafy joins us, a former lead investigaor for that select committee. and with us at the table, andrew weissmann is back. a former justice department prosecutor and senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation. congresswoman, i start with you. take me through -- just in a big picture manner, the import of having access to mike pence's firsthand testimony of why he ran down the stairs, what he knew when he woke up that day, and his experience on the other end of the line from donald trump. >> i think this is a key piece, something that we would have liked to have heard directly, as the january 6th committee from the former vice president. but his firsthand impressions, assuming he's going to be truthful and honest and not vague, as he's been in his book and other questioning and interviews.

to really lay out what he heard and what exchange he had in his conversations from the president. but also how that shapes what was the former president's state of mind at the time. that is something that we have clearly understood. it was mentioned how he intended to just, you know, leave it to the -- him and the other republican congressman to essentially change the results of the election. but mike pence, really like no one else, has firsthand knowledge and participation in these conversations. we know the result. we know that mike pence did the right thing on that day and he followed the constitution. he didn't attempt to change the outcome of the election. but we know that there was a lot of pressure applied on him to take different actions, and he did. hearing that, from the former vice president himself, i think will solidify numerous reports and testimony we have had from

others. >> congresswoman, we know from talking to tim and from having access to you and other members that start of the strategy was to tell the story with or without the participation of people like mike pence, who refused to participate in the bipartisan congressional investigation. and from all of those people, it's pretty clear that donald trump's state of mind was with the committee established, that he knew he lost, that he knew the eastman plan was illegal and unconstitutional. he relied on pence to do something he knew wasn't allowed, that's why he called him the "p" word. what it is that pence closes beyond a reasonable doubt for jack smith? >> well, i think we're now talking to people directly in the orbit of the former president.

they had conversations directly with him. they had spent enough time and had enough of a working relationship to understand the state of mind, and to really portray the events firsthand. as you said, we have had numerous interviews with those who were nearby, who saw and heard parts of these conversations. but to know and understand them in their entirety, i think we'll complete a picture. of course, that's a picture i think we really have a lot of the elements of. we know essentially what former president trump was trying to do, what outcome he wanted that day. and we know that mike pence didn't follow through with that. so those elements are already there. but i think the former vice president's testimony is necessary. i think that it is his constitutional duty to testify and i thought it was quite interesting. i quoted his former chief of staff today after the d.c. court of appeals decision and said he will comply with the law. that's disappointing to me. the former vice president, the president himself has the responsibility to ensure that

the laws are faithfully executed. a former vice president shouldn't just comply with the law because it's required. he sets the example for the nation. i'm really proud of what mike pence did that day in following the constitution and doing the right thing for our country and the republic, but also disappointed that he's trying to evade for so long this testimony, first with the january 6th committee, and now with the legal investigation by the justice department. but the day has finally come, and he is following the law. he has shown up and spoken. and i think the american people will have more of an understanding the elements that he can fill in and what happened that day and leading up to january 6th. >> what is your reaction to, umm, an actual insurrectionist getting an actual embrace and autograph from the republican front runner, the twice impeached, once indicted ex-president donald trump yesterday in new hampshire? >> you know, fog really

surprises me anymore. i think it's par for the course. between now and the primary season to determine who is going to be on the ballot for the 2024 presidential election, we will see more and more of this. he's embraced the january 6th insurrectionists. he's making them heroes. he's celebrating what they did on his behalf. and that is just another element he's adding to his rallying cry. i think we will hear this over and over again while the former president is on the campaign trail. >> tim, your former colleague liz cheney tweeted this -- >> i guess i would ask you, tim, today, who is winning, the good

guys or the bad guys? >> look, i think the good guys are getting closer and closer, nicolle, to holding president trump and others accountable. if you look at good guys as defined by who is on the cause of justice and the cause of accountability, then i think they're making substantial progress. the testimony of the former vice president is a big deal, and the president and others continual embrace of charged vehicles of riters and insurrectionists, is outrageous. i'm not naive enough to think that the cause of justice, or the art of history bends towards justice, and we're getting closer and closer to that. >> when you see donald trump, it's such a split screen, not just on the right. it shows the actual fisher on the right, donald trump is with an insurrectionist. let me read to you about the woman donald trump embraced

literally yesterday. on january 6th, larson olson climbed the scaffolding set up for joe biden's inauguration. she later bragged on social media and in an interview that it took six officers to remove her. "my only regret is i wasn't stronger, that i could not hold on longer." she told nbc news in an hour-long interview friday. she said she believes the members of congress who voted to certify joe biden's presidential election should be executed. "the punishment for treason is death per the constitution," larson olson said. she added that she would like a front seat of mike pence being executed, and that he should be the number one person on her list of those who committed treason. i mean, as someone who has participated in the effort for accountability, for radicalized americans, from sort of char

lotsville to january 6th, what does it say that this person now has access -- no one protecting donald trump, protected him from this person. she got so close, he hugged her, and he signed her backpack that she carried with her. where are we? >> nicolle, look, i'll use the world outrageous and frightening, and it's indicative to what you were just discussing with the congresswoman, which is president trump's intent. if he is affirmatively praising and embracing people that climbe solng at the capitol, who proudly wear their insurrectionism on their sleeve, then his support of them, his continual good words to them suggests that he was on board on january 6th. again, that's the central issue. we talk about this on this show all the time, that the central

issue for jack smith is what did the president intend with his words and deeds or lack of words or deeds on january 6th? did he intend at the joint session that it be disrupted? statements like yesterday to this rioter, to me, are strong evidence that he intended for them to succeed, for them to do exactly what they kid and potentially more. he's just digging a deeper hole for himself legally. i'll leave it to others to assess the politics of others, will you legally, it is wrong headed and potentially gave jack smith even more ammunition. >> i guess i'm not a lawyer, lucky for everybody involved. but it seems like he's showing us his intent, we should believe him, as a public posture. is that as straightforward in the legal sense, tim? >> yeah, you're not a lawyer, but you play one on tv. that's a pretty good analysis. he continues to show us his true colors, his intent, his support

for this riotous action. it is not complicated. you don't need to be a lawyer to understand that. i leave it to others to game out how this plays in certain portions of the republican primary voters. but certainly, as a legal matter, it is outrageous and really telling. >> so i want to show you something that the judge said. it seems to offer -- if not a competing view, a different perspective on the complexity of what chuck smith has taken on. >> the investigation, both by the department of justice department, and in fulton county by district attorney fannie willis, they are large, even massive investigations. >> right. >> but as such, the indictments

and prosecutions there, if there are to be those, actually would not be as complicated as a matter of law, as this indictment in manhattan promises and appears to be. >> now, as you sat next to me as i tried to understand the underlying crime to elevate a misdemeanor to a felony in new york state, i think i understand the spirit of what he's trying to say. and he nods to the complexity and the size of the investigations into january 6th. but most people compare the mar-a-lago investigation to january 6th and say mar-a-lago is much more straightforward. i hadn't heard the sort of election investigation as being described as straightforward before. >> one, just to be fair what he is saying it's more straightforward than the manhattan case. i think in terms of complexity,

the mar-a-lago case is straightforward. you know, this is like you didn't return them and you're starting the investigation. you have your opening and your summation, and the proof is going to line up. >> and you talk -- >> it seems like that is going to be -- i think that is one we could easily see now leapfrogging where we are in georgia and see thing go forward. january 6th is really more about the size and complexity. we talked about a question of triage, making sure he just focuses on what he needs. i agree with tim that if you're jack smith, he's watching what you just reported and saying that is exhibit a. that is an admission, just to get in the legal weeds. it's like you are looking for what is the defendant doing and saying? his little embrace is something you will be seeing, i'm sorry, i

thought he was against what happened on january 6th. this was a surprise to him, that he was against what was going on. well, why is he embracing this? in the waco event he gave, he played january 6th footage praising it. >> yeah. and i just have to say, he's never been against it. the day it happened, he said, we love you, as the riot was underway, he -- there's not a single piece of evidence that he didn't love it. >> if you're jack smith, you are worried about what is defense counsel going to say? because defense counsel is going to try to think of any argument. i totally agree with you, it is that donald trump has made it impossible to put up the defense of, i was surprised by what happened, and i was against it. or i saw what was happening and i was unnerved or i thought, okay, maybe it's a good thing. but essentially what's happening is donald trump sees that he is going to be indicted for leading the january 6th insurrection. so of course he's saying, i was

leading with legal and he's going to be charged with being the head of this. >> so you think his defense now is going to be that the insurrection was legal? >> i think he's going to have to -- look, i don't know what he's going to actually say. i don't want to be his defense counsel in terms of trying to figure out a defense. but usually, as tim said, you try to figure out something about your intent, that this was something that, you know, i didn't intend for this to happen. he's making it impossible by his actions now, his own direct actions where he's literally embracing people who participated and saying they should be pardoned, that this was a good thing. he's making it impossible to come up with any plausible defense to a jury on this. i think he's playing a political game, but that's not going to play to a d.c. jury. you know, this is -- we talked

about this. there is a political angle and what will happen in a court of law. we're seeing it in the e. jean carroll case where facts and law matter. so e h's putting this in a different field, and if you say it's black, i say it's white. i think russia is good. i don't think russia is bad. >> if you're serving our country, you're a sucker. >> exactly. it is so anti-government, anti-fact, anti-science, anti-law. but it's not just because tim and i are lawyers, it is not a legal defense. >> but if it's anti-law and you're trump and you haven't been charged with anything ever, why stop doing it? >> he's not. the thing is, what you are seeing -- this happening right now in the e. jean carroll case where he continues to go on truth social and be himself in

spite of a judge saying knock it off, he did the same thing during the maniafort case. he's playing the one card that's been successful to him. but as tim is saying, we are seeing the noose tightening, and his conduct is, if you are a lawyer, you look at it, and i think exhibit a, exhibit b. this is all information that be used and is going to hurt him in a criminal case. >> i want to play, you know, just to give more credit to the committee that constituted itself, hired investigators, did the investigation, wrote a report, aired public hearings, dismantled itself, left congress, moved on to other pursuits in the time we have waited for the federal government to see what they are going to do. i want to show some of the evidence it produced as part of that process. right here in this sort of

pressure point between the pence camp and the trump camp. >> are we to assume that this is going to be a climactic battle? >> i think a lot of that depends on the courage and the spine of the individuals involved. >> that would be a nice way to say a guy named vice president mike pence? >> yes. >> i think we've been clear is what the vice president said. i have been clear with mark meadows. >> i think the vice president is going to throw down tomorrow and do the right thing, because like i said before, this is a time for choosing. people are going to look back at this moment tomorrow and remember where every single one of their elected officials were. did they vote for the rule of law in getting these elections right or give it away to the democrats and the people who cheated and stole their way through this election? >> definitely, you know, i got back into town like the 5th and the 6th. the president was, you know, all the attention was on what mike would do or wouldn't do.

>> the vice president really was not wavering in his commitment to what he -- what his responsibility was. and so yeah, was it painful? sure. >> so congresswoman, what we know now from the committee is that jason miller was -- had ready access to the legal analysis, that they knowingly, publicly pressured pence to do something that everyone up to donald trump knew was illegal. how does that change the liability and exposure for everyone involved? >> well, i think that we have seen reporting recently that there were two reports commissioned, paid for by the trump campaign, to lay out and refute all of these claims. i think one of them had 20 particular instances. they were all refuted, and it seems clear that the president himself and certainly those people around him in the

campaign, had knowledge of these reports and the actual evidence stating that none of these things were true. in my mind, i think that, you know, i've always thought how could he possibly believe this? he's going out there saying these things, saying the election is stolen, never providing any basis. and what's disturbing is all the people, all the other elected officials, all the other members of congress who went along with this and just perpetuated this lie, in an attempt to overturn the election and ultimately not certify the election results. so i think it's like tim said, it was just adding more fuel to the fire as far as making the case about what did he know, when did he know it? the committee laid out, was able to put some pieces together about conversations that he had with those who work closely with him in the white house that indicated it. i think it was mark milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs, who indicated in his testimony that the president was talking

about things such as afghanistan withdrawal, something in the future. we'll let the other guy worry about that. why are you talking about someone else coming into the white house if you think you've won? that's just one little piece, but many that line up, that although he knew he lost, he continued to just perpetuate this lie and has now quickly, a large portion of the american public continue to believe it. >> tim, i'll give you last word. i would ask you to put on -- i know you guys all hate doing this, but make a prediction for us, just if you agree or disagree with the mar-a-lago case will leap ahead of the january 6th investigation. where do you sense both these investigations are today? >> i think they're close to the end, nicolle. look, the prosecutor's playbook is you sort of methodically

march along the chain of responsibility or significance as you're interviewing witnesses. and if they're already to witness one, mike pence, it suggests that they're pretty late in the game. and it's so important, because the clips that you just played are so telling, because they demonstrate that mike pence consistently and resolutely co he did not have the authority to do anything but what he did at the joint session, and he conveyed that to president trump, which makes his remarks on the ellipse even that morning, if mike pence does what he can do or what he should do, then we'll be very happy. he's putting public pressure, it's the last desperate prong of his intentional plot to disrupt the election by launching this angry, violent mob at the joint session where the vice president, already clear in his position, is presiding. again, it is -- there could not be a more dramatic manifestation

of intent to disrupt that session. and all this evidence that he knew what he was saying publicly was 180 degrees different than the law, and the intention of mike pence. mike pence is going to say that. i told him directly again and again, i can't do what you are asking me to do, yet president trump repeated it to influence mike pence and it didn't work. all this leads, i think, to criminal charges. >> wow. thank you very much for starting us off this hour. andrew sticks around. when we come back, margorie taylor greene proves how far the one-time party of family values has fallen. her deeply offensive remarks about parenthood. a new low even for her. we'll talk with the targets of her angry marks.

plus, how the assault on gay and trans rights in america is driving people out of their homes, literally. another culture war ignited by far-right republicans that is backfiing on them politically. and later in the broadcast, after yesterday's testimony and cross-examination of e. jean carroll on the stand, for the rain and defamation trial against an american ex-president goes next. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continue after a quick break. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ hey, man. nice pace! clearly, you're a safe driver. you could save hundreds for safe driving with liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need! [sfx: limu squawks] whoo! we gotta go again. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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one of the storeys we tried to cover here with an intense

cover is how the right's policies damage human beings and how the right continues to ignite culture wars that rile up their base ahead of the 2024 election. in a bid to stay relevant in today's world, again, human consequences began. over the last few months, these efforts have been spearheaded by one man, there are governor ron desantis. his crusade against wokeness has led him to wage an all-out war with one of the nation's, the world's most beloved brands. disney just this week filed a lawsuit in federal court alleging that desantis and other state officials have carried out a "targeted campaign of government retaliation against the company." the real story here might be how the gop's culture wars on some of the most vulture people in our population are now in the main stream of republican politics. out in the open for everyone to see. this was on display this week, when a regular guest on our

show, the president of the american federation of teachers, randy winegarden, testified on schools and covid-19, and was confronted by none other than margorie taylor greene who questioned her credentials as a teacher, but shockingly, it became very personal. take a listen. >> ms. winegarden, are you a medical doctor? >> i am not. >> are you a mother? >> i am a mother by marriage. >> by marriage. i see. what i would like to talk about is your recommendations to the cdc as not a medical doctor, not a biological mother, and really not a teacher, either. none of your advice had to do with -- to stop the spread of covid-19, it was all about teachers staying home, and there was big results of that. let me tell you, i am a mother. all three of my children were directly affected by the school closures, by your recommendations, which is something that you really can't

understand. the problem is, people like you need to admit that you're just a political activist, not a teacher, not a mother, not a medical doctor. >> before you throw something at your tv, that's the republican party. that's the person kevin mccarthy needs in his corner. that's the person kevin mccarthy has handed the keys to the kingdom to. joining our conversation, randy winegarden and michael steele, now an msnbc contributor. andrew is still with us. i almost couldn't process that. and i know michael put out a tweet. but how are you processing that attack? >> you know, i -- well, first, nicolle, i have been attacked by -- andville -- and

villainized my professional life just for standing up for people. i learned as a teacher, it's not what's said, it's what is heard. you have to meet people where they are. for most of that hearing, i tried to actually figure out how to respond to the questions, and how to tell the story to the camera when they let me talk. but what she did was, it's just this dehumanization that you see autocrats do, and you see people who don't want to solve problems do. and what's unfortunate is that it's so mean that i can take it, i'm a public figure. you know, i called one of sharon's kids earlier in the day, and i expected something like this to happen, and i warned her that it might happen.

she was fantastic. she said to me, you know, we love you and we're with you. but it's just a matter of the undermining of people, the undermining of trans kids, the undermining of the other. so i felt like i was taking one for the team. but the vile, homophobic nature of it was pathetic. and the undermining of families was pathetic. >> we're going to have to deal with the dehumanization point. let me put a pin in that. michael steele put out a tweet i hope i can read without trying. not a biological mother? well, margorie taylor greene, the woman who adopted me, cared for me, raised me, loved me, inspired me, disciplined me, educated me, and at 95, still smiles when i walk in the room, didn't need biology to be my mother. #adoption. michael steele?

>> you know, i watched the whole thing because a lot of the stupidness on the internet, thank you, elon, is people saying, did you see the whole thing? i said yeah, i watched it. i watched the whole thing. i watched the dehumanization process, the degradation. but when you got to that part where she went after her as a mom, you questioned her motherhood, regardless of how she came into it, because women, and men, come into parenting in a whole lot of different ways. it just struck such a raw nerve for me, as an adopted child, to think that a margorie taylor greene could look at my mother and say she's not a mother? well, you know, you need to shut the you know what up and step back. because motherhood comes from the heart. it's something you do.

it's an expression of love, discipline, all the things i said. for me, my party that sat here and railed for years about the value of the family, to watch this classless act, and these classless words being thrown at someone, because you disagree with them politically. i've debated randi. i've skirmished with teacher's unions here in maryland. but i would never look at her and say, you're unfit to have this discussion, because you are not a mother. what the hell? so this is, again, the process that we're going to have to go through as we begin to sort of reimagine this country, and we have a choice. it's either looking at someone like randi and her story, looking at me and my story, and saying that somehow we're less

qualified, less capable, less valuable because of our circumstances, nicolle, it's not just a dangerous slope, it is an un-american slope, particularly given one that, you know, we claim that we are so much for the family and the value of individuals, and how they raised their families. it just struck a raw nerve for me. >> i want to do this without hyperbole but i want to say this clearly here today with all three of you, if we don't jump on and rapidly respond to dehumanization campaigns when they happen, they're achieving what the right needs to achieve. alex jones could haven't the dead babies at sandy hook exist, because then we might do something different about guns. republicans can't have the moms of trans kids and dads, just trying to figure out the best way to love and support their kids. they can't exist. if that mom is as committed to

her child or his child as they are, then they can't square their own hate-filled hearts and intolerance. if the laws banning drag shows while they push for permitless carry, and they haven't dehumanized the part of the country they don't approve of, they can't push through their agendas. they rely on the dehumanization being allowed to slide. when we let it happen, we aid them. how do we stop it in its tracks, michael steele? >> i think you stop it in its tracks by shaking our fellow americans and understand that they're say thing about all of us. they're saying this about your family, your mom, right? your relatives, your circumstances. and so how much do you value that? how much do you value those things? are you -- do you value them

enough to actually say stop? and to say no? or do you devalue them like they do, and think, well, that's randi and michael, it's not me. because that separation is what's required here in order for what margorie taylor greene said to stick. and to work. i mean, we -- you know, the words weren't taken down in the committee. the party hasn't responded to it. i don't see members rushing to aback of microphones to elevate all forms of motherhood. in however it comes about. it's silence. it's left to moments like this when you try to call the nation's attention to what happened in a hearing. that could happen anywhere in this country going forward, and the next thing you know, what do we have?

everybody becomes other. and so i wanted to respond to that moment -- i didn't want to cite you in the tweet, because i knew you had enough going on in that moment. >> thank you, michael. >> i just wanted to show -- >> i did. >> -- that you weren't alone in your stance here and what happened to you. this was not about a partisan or -- this was about watching a mother sit there, bravely, quietly, stoically, taking crap from this idiot who, who, who then had the nerve to say, i'm a mother. well, a fine example you are, if this is what you are teaching your kids, how to look at someone that you disagree with or have to -- how to look at someone whose lifestyle, community, and experiences are different from yours. that's what we've got to push back on. because they're trying to slowly slip it away to where it has no

value except for however they define that value. and i refuse to let that happen. >> randi? >> so, first off, i really appreciated -- michael, i really appreciated what you did, and it made me cry. you know, i'm not -- i don't normally tend to crying, but i want to also say something more about what nicolle and you just said. we start at different parts of the political spectrum. but we respect and talk to each other, and we talk out issues. that's what america is. and at the end of the day, the dehumanization here, you see it in so many ways. so many teachers have said to me they don't want to say anything anymore. they don't want to teach in a class. they don't know if a word they say is going to get them in trouble, get them fired. the attempt to divide parents from teachers, when most

teachers -- the attempt not to bring family together in all sorts of different families. you know, there's a different view of family. we need to bring families and connections together, and we need to be americanamericans. we're better than this. but the divisiveness and the cruelty stops people from talking, because they want to just hide. we need people to have these conversations and call out the dehumanization. because dehumanization leads to incitement. incitement leads to violence. we need to find a way to talk about our differences, to be solution driven, but to call out this level of cruelty and demu -- dehumanization. >> i need to take a quick break or someone will try to silence me. i think this is where the political opportunity and the

human opportunity actually serve one another, right? if we can all connect as human beings and say hey, let's debate, as michael said, we have these debates about education policy or whatnot, that's all of us over here, right? that we treat each other with respect as humans. if we can form the political coalition where we don't have to agree with each other, we're just not going to denigrate and judge and marginalize, but they rely on all of us, women that they can force to have state-mandated pregnancies, even if they're raped. they count on all of us going to our own corners to plot our own fights in these various issues. their greatest fear is we have each other's backs. i do have to sneak in a quick break. we'll be right back. mara, are you sure you don't want -to go bowling with us tonight? -yeah. no. there's my little marzipan! [ laughs ] oh, my daughter gives the best hugs! we're just passing through on our way to the jazz jamboree.

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(neighbor) oh, he's bragging. (seth) who, me? never. oh, excuse me. hello, your royal highness, sir... (cecily) okay, that's a brag. (seth) hey, mom. i gotta call you back. (vo) switch and choose the phone you want, like the incredible iphone 14, on us. (cecily) on the network worth bragging about. verizon what do you have to say to some of those state legislators who maybe have their jersey in their closets, who brought their kids to your name to cheer for you? >> i think that's another reason why i don't live in this state. a lot of people don't know that. i had to make decisions for my family, not just personal, individual families. the taxes is great, but my family would not be accepted or feel comfortable there. so that's one of the reasons i don't live there. >> some incredible moment about retired nba legend dwyane wade sitting down with rachel nichols

and hoping up about his family's reasoning for leaving the state of florida, where he played for a big chunk of his hall of fame career for the miami heat. in 2020, wade's 15-year-old daughter came out as trans, and the family decided to move, given the growing anti-lbgtq rhetoric around the country. but especially in their state of florida. ron desantis' war against wokeness runs deepest. wade's story is not unlike other lbgtq families in florida who are leaving in droves. michael, everybody has the means to relocate their family, but this isn't the first story we have heard on our air of a family not feeling safe living in florida. what has happened in the laboratory of right-wing extremism that expelling dwyane wade's family from your state and others like him and his daughter is viewed as good politics or good policy or good humanity? >> well, it is how our politics

have undermined, corroded, and continues to erode the moral structure, the moral fiber where, as we were discussing, we look at his family and we look at my family, and your family, and we make judgments about it. and we allow that to continue the way it has. and so, yeah, we're going to see more of this, and it's unfortunate that we will, but, again, going back to the point, we have to decide to stand up against it. and i just want to -- one last point on this, just say directly to margorie taylor greene, you remember that little boy named jesus? well, his daddy was a stepdad. >> mmm. you're so good. was a step-dad. >> you're so good. you're so good it's crazy. >> yup. >> i hate to make you fool michael steele. >> thank you so much, nicole.

so, you know, on the one hand i think the republicans may have gone too far. dobbs was horrific but politically a loser. marjorie taylor greene going after all adoptive parents? i mean, amy comey barrett is sitting there going, i wonder what that means? she adopted a number of children. so you have that at the one end. you have this extreme that really can't be resonating with a majority of the people. the problem is gerrymandering, is that donald trump and a certain part of the republican party has learned that you don't need a majority to win, that you can actually jerry manneder. so one answer to your question, what can we do? people really need to be focused, like mark elias, on voting rights because this strategy can work if you

actually undermine the way in which we elect people. >> that's why the opposite is true, that's why republicans are going after it. >> absolutely. >> i have to sneak in one more break but on a day like today, randy will go last. don't go anywhere. size starter and entree for just $15.99. welcome to fun dining. asking the right question can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this? - what?

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this can't just be political. it just can't be about what we do in november. i think that when we see people being treated so cruelty -- cruelly and indecently, people of different political factions have to come together, and it will have a lot of strength if we do. we can debate about issues, but that's what school teachers do every day. you don't -- you don't wait to say to a kid, are you a democrat? are you a republican? are you an independent? kids come into your classroom. you try to teach the whole child. you try to help them thrive, and i think that we need to -- and that's why i really appreciated what michael did and what others did, we need to call out the cruelty and call out the deprivation and dehumanization. >> i think to bring it back to kids and how we raise our kids. randi, you and i have had a ton

of conversations about kids. >> exactly. >> if you are raising the child, as most of us are, to be sticking up for the kids who are being bullied and attacked. that's what they see on social media, the workplace and life. randi, we are so grateful to have you here. michael steele, thank you for the tweet and thank you for being you. another big hour. we're only halfway there, guys, is next. what we can expect this next week after the first week in the rape and defamation trial against twice impeached, disgraced, indicted ex-president. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back.

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today we are surrounded by survivors and truth tellers, and finally we are starting to right a wrong that has existed forfar too long. the trauma that comes with experiencing sexual assault is not arbitrarily adhered to a limit of time, nor can justice be held to a period of time. and going forth after today in new york, it will not. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. it was a moment for justice, foreclosure perhaps, for accountability for sure. last year new york governor kathy hochul signed into law the adult survivor's act which allowed during a one-year window survivors of sexual assault to sue regardless of the statute of limitations. that law is why e. jean carroll was able to testify that in the

mid 1990s donald trump raped her in the department store dressing room. she spoke of the lasting trauma she has endured from the alleged rape, unable to have a romantic relationship since then carrying around the memory of that encounter that is seerd into her brain. donald trump denies her allegations. even though he was not in the courtroom he attacked carol on social media, posts that drew a rebuke from the judge who called them entirely inappropriate. yesterday the ex-president's lawyer joe tacopina began questioning carol. the cross examination was described by "the new york times" as one where tensions ebbed and flowed. ms. carroll's answers were curt.

it is critical that we pay attention to it. quote, we have become so inoured, so numb to stories about trump's behavior that it is tempting to minimize this case. after all, it's just one of many. who can keep straight the gusher of allegations, indictments that are actual and impending. it's simile another sorted example of trump's behavior, unmoored and yet unpunished. the adult film star paid off, the play boy model whose tale of an affair with trump was done and we need to remind ourselves of how far trump has dragged ourselves down into the gutter reduced to his level of tawdry entitlement. the account was not only about a former president, it is also about a man who by all measures seems poised to claim his

party's nomination a third time. the current front-runner for the gop presidential nomination being accused of rape is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. washington post federal courts and law enforcement reporter shayna jacobs is here. also joining us barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney now law professor and katty kay. barbara and katty are msnbc contributors. shayna, i know we have a few moments of your time. ruth marcus makes a superb point. we are so distracted. this week it's about efforts of accountability by trump and others in the maga movement. this case started in a way that illustrates her point. take us through what we may have missed if we were paying attention to other things. >> this was really the first time the full detailed account of what carroll says happened in

that dressing room was presented to the public, and it was really described in acute detail how the interaction happened, what exactly happened. it was graphic at times. it was certainly uncomfortable, i'm sure, for carroll to say publicly, but she is standing firm on her accounts and doubling down on the fact that this happened decades ago, whether trump is willing to admit it or not. and she has not swayed from that position. >> and i understand that what is to come will include other women who say that trump sexually assaulted them. jessica leeds will testify that she was sexually assaulted by trump when she sat next to him on a flight in the 1970s and natasha stoynoff, a reporter for "people" magazine will say trump assaulted her when she was at mar-a-lago in the early 2000s

working on a story. we also know the judge has permitted the "access hollywood" tape to be played. what do you make of the case that's being assembled on behalf of supporting e. jean carroll's allegations. >> there's potential for the supporting witnesses and evidence to be effective in this case. we've seen in other cases, generally criminal cases, but like the harvey weinstein case that happened in new york a few years ago, supporting witnesses really help to corroborate a story -- a story of sexual assault that is especially old and hard to prove, especially when no police report was ever made and really there's not much physical evidence or any. so being able to demonstrate for the jury a pattern of behavior can be really key in some of these cases. >> something else that i think journalists who reported in the

me too era used to coroborate this was contemporaneous accounts. i want to play some of the sound from "the new york times" daily back from 2019 about some of the work that i think they worked on in corroborating e. jean carroll's account from a friend that she called after the assault, her friend lisa birnbach. let me play that. >> as the story continued, she stopped laughing and started to realize that what e. jean was describing sounded to her like rape. >> honestly, you did say, he put his penis in me. and i said -- my face just did it. what? he raped you? and you said, eh. he kupt pulling down -- he pulled down my tights.

he pulled down my tights. >> and lisa was emphatic. she said, what you're describing is a rape, and you should go to the police. >> it just -- it was horrible. we fought. and i said, let's go to the police. no. come to my house. no. i want to go home. i'll take you to the police. no. it was 15 minutes of my life, it's over. don't ever tell anybody. i just had to tell you. >> you know, i think some of that testimony you're describing that e. jean has already delivered is that it wasn't 15 minutes of her life, it has haunted, you know, every moment of her life since then. >> yes, exactly. lisa's account, which jurors are expected to hear probably next week, very closely mirrors the story that carroll -- carroll conveyed in her testimony. >> barbara mcquade, i want to bring you in and i want to ask

you, what is the strategy when someone like joe tacopina is acting so combative with a victim who's alleging she's been raped by his client? why do that? it seems like a sure-fired way to engender sympathy from the jury and also suggest that there's not much else there if his strategy is to bully her on the stand? >> yeah. i think this goes against everything i've ever been taught as a lawyer, which is not to revictimize a victim. not only might it be ineffective, but the jury is going to hate you, and that is not a way to be persuasive or to curry their favor. i think that in slow motion he demonstrated exactly why e. jean carroll didn't report this immediately, because i knew if i did that, i would be doubted. i would be revictimized. people would be cross examining me, blaming me for this, just

like you're doing right now. i think in so many ways it's counter productive to do that. my guess is this is what joe tacopina promised to deliver to donald trump. this is what donald trump wants. he likes strong. he likes to fight. he likes to counterpunch and perhaps this ingrash sh eights him to some of his supporters. the people that matter are in the jury box. some of the reports were yesterday during some of this kind of cross examination the jurors looked very uncomfortable, were staring at their laps, which suggests to me that they did not like watching someone revictimize a victim. >> so we're going to go there, katty kay. this is what joe tacopina did. this is shayna's reporting. they verbally sparred at times during his questioning which lasted about three hours. she appeared to grow irritated at some moments, including when the attorney asked her why

carroll did not scream when trump allegedly assaulted her. one of the reasons women don't come forward is because they're always asked, why didn't you scream? carroll said. some women scream, some women don't. it keeps women silent. after more back and forth with tacopina, carroll responded with audible frustration, he raped me whether i screamed or not. i don't know if joe tacopina has a handbook on rape that all women scream and if they don't, that's what he's betting a jury will believe. i guess? katty? >> he's getting at her behavior. he's getting at her memory. every rape victim that i've spoken to, whether they were raped five years ago or 20 years ago can tell you exactly what that rape felt like. they can tell you exactly what that moment of sexual abuse was like. they may not remember the day. they may not remember the year and that was clearly frustrating in carroll's case, and she's

frustrated by it, and she can remember it. the no, they don't all scream. there are two reasons women don't come forward for rape. they think they're not going to be believed and they think they're going to be humiliated. one of the very worst things about rape is that it leaves the survivors of rape with a horrible sense of their own culpability and their own guilt. you can see how for e. jean carroll this has haunted her. it wasn't just those 15 minutes, it leaves you feeling stained and dirty and awful. then you are left with the reality of the fact, only 6% of rapists ever spend a day in jail. only something like 16 to 40% of rapes in the united states are ever prosecuted. and those numbers really stack against you, which is why, i guess, carroll said to her friends, it was 15 minutes, i'm going to try to put it in a lock box and have it not disrupt my life.

tacopina's questioning, carroll was standing for every woman who doesn't want to go to trial, go through that and was very brave. tacopina in the way he was questioning her confirms a lot of women's fears. >> katty, what does that say about us? two other women who donald trump allegedly assaulted will testify. 19 women who allege sexual assault by donald trump and he's described as a republican front-runner, we never, myself included, i'm impugning myself, we never describe him as credibly accused of sexual assault by 19 women. why not? >> i think now the number is 26. the numbers vary. the highest number is 26. it's that -- it's -- i can only assume it's the thing about if you do -- i'm trying to think. let's say barack obama had been accused of rape during his run for the presidency. let's say george w. bush who you

worked for and we can go back to clinton but i do think things have changed since the 1990s, what would happen? what would it do to their candidacies? is it because the numbers are so big. where he got away with "access hollywood." we assumed that would be the end of his presidency and make it impossible for him to win? and yet he still did it. it's that i can shoot somebody on fifth avenue argument that he seems to have because people in his base, whatever he is accused of, and of course this has to go through trial. every person accuses somebody of rape should be questioned. the facts should be established to the extent that it is possible. that is what the law demands. it's fair and right that it should happen but there are a lot of cases, as we said, as you said earlier, when it came to me, too, there is a pattern of rape and accusers and in the case of donald trump, there is a pattern. >> there certainly is. i'm happy to be corrected from

19 to 26. i think the other thing with donald trump, katty, that is a really smart and savvy assessment, that he puts it out there himself as somehow insulated from it in the political arena. i mean, he basically brags about being a sexual assaulter. i'm going to play this because it's been permitted by the judge as evidence in e. jean carroll's case. here he is on the "access hollywood" tape. >> yeah, that's her with t gold. i better do this with tick tacks. i'm automatically attracted. i just start kissing them. it's a magnet. and when you're a star, they let you do it. you can do anything. >> whatever you want. >> grab 'em by the [ bleep ]. do anything. >> so it's -- i don't even know what to describe it. it's a confession of some of the conduct that he's being accused of, grab them in the p word. you can do anything.

when you're a star, they let you do it. it's not the case. it's air deranged reality. someone with a pattern of credibly accused of assaulting sexually 26 women. barbara mcquade, how is that information or is that profile and information presented to the jury? >> yeah. this is permissible under a rule of evidence and it's exclusive to cases of sexual assault. you know, ordinarily jurors are not allowed to hear about prior criminal acts by a defendant because there's a worry that they will hold it against them and believe that they committed this crime simply because they committed a crime in the past. it's referred to as propensity evidence and it's typically not permitted, but there is an exception under the rules of evidence when it demonstrates someone's modus operandi, their m.o. in these cases of sexual assault, if there's a particular way a person engages in sexual assault, that can be relevant to proving the credibility of this

one. not only does he sexually assault women, but he does it in the same way every time. hearing from prior witnesses saying, yes, he attacked me by saying he did the same thing to e. jean carroll. first grabbed me by the genitals before engaging in the other sexual assault. the tape recording is consistent with the kind of reporting that e. jean carroll described and what the other witnesses will say is consistent with what e. jean carroll will describe. this is consistent with whether they're telling the truth. >> i don't know if everyone remembers who ty cobb is. he was 11 lawyers ago. he was one of the first outsides lawyers that trump brought in to defend him or represent him in the muller investigation. so way back to 2017. he was replaced i think three or four times over. he knows donald trump and he has had donald trump as a client.

here's what he had to say about donald trump's exposure in this case. >> do you think she has a strong case against trump? >> i certainly think based on the evidence that the judge has agreed to let in that her case is -- is quite strong. she's got the two outcry witnesses, outcry witnesses being people she talked to recently -- almost immediately after the event, which that -- that -- that -- that buttresses her credibility substantially. on the other hand, keep in mind, you know, this is -- this is a long, long time ago. >> right. >> you know, almost 30 years, and those kind of cases are difficult to prove, but the judge having agreed to let in the testimony from another alleged victim from 17 years prior to this incident and be a second one -- second alleged victim, you know, based on an incident ten years after this alleged inches doesn't, you know, that definitely

strengthens the case in a way that i think will be very difficult for trump to overcome. >> so, katty, we're at a moment of real peril for him in e. jean carroll's rape case. we're also at a moment where he's doing what he always does, subjecting her to vicious abuse and threats. she spoke about it on the first day of the trial. she wakes up every day to heinous personal insults and threats. the way that he conducts himself when accountability is near is a pattern as well. and i wonder what you make of what his conduct will look like in the days and weeks ahead. >> well, first of all, thank you for reminding me about ty cobb. you're right, there have been so many lawyers. it's hard to remember which one was acting at which time. it all seems like a very distant memory at this time. bit by bit it's stacking up.

the two friends, the "access hollywood" tape and the two women and as ty cob suggested, what e. jean carroll is saying not only is she getting the abuse donald trump has been leveling on social media and the judge is saying you have to hold off on that, you're not doing yourself any favors. on top of that, i don't know if it's hard or not, we shouldn't forget the amount of abuse she's getting on social media, online from all of those people who support donald trump. as she said, it's horrible to wake up in the morning and be told you're ugly and old and, you know, a terrible person and no one will be -- i mean, the kind of abuse that she's getting is -- is -- is miserable for her and it takes -- it takes something to go through what she is going through so long after the fact at her stage in life. so i think that whether his

lawyers will be able to corral him into reining back his social media commentary on this case as it progresses, it won't stop all of those people who are attacking her online and that's hard for her to live with. >> and it's all because of him. it's how he conducts himself. it's an amazing piece of the fabric of what we've become, of what we've become numb to as marcus notes. barbara mcquade, katty kay and shayna, thank you for starting us off. raw testimony this week at the u.s. senate where amanda zirosky, who is suing the state of texas over its abortion ban, told her senators she almost died on their watch despite life threatening complications. amanda will be our guest again after a very short break. later in the hour, how red

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i wanted to address my senators, cruz and cornin, who -- neither of whom regrettably are in the room right now, but i would like for them to know that what happened to me, i think most people in this room would agree, was horrific, but it's a direct result of the policies that they support. i nearly died on their watch. >> that was amanda zurawski,

lead plaintiff in a lawsuit over texas's abortion ban. she's our next guest. she testified this week in front of the senate about the devastating impact, a real-world impact of her state's extreme abortion ban. she opened up about her state's law nearly robbed her of her life, may have robbed her of her ability to have kids in the future and continues to impact her mental health to this day. >> the trauma and the ptsd and the depression that i have dealt with in the eight months since this happened to me is paralyzing. i cannot adequately put into words the trauma and despair that comes with waiting to either lose your own life, your child's or both. for days i was locked in this bizarre and avoidable hell. would willow's heart stop or would idea tear or rate to the

brink of death. >> amanda is joining us. there's not a day that goes by that i don't think of you. i'm in awe of you. how are you doing? >> that's so nice of you to say. thank you so much. and thank you for having me back. i really appreciate it. i'm doing okay. it's high highs and low lows right now. i just got back from d.c. two hours ago. i feel invigorated. it was a good trip. we're looking forward to what's next. >> can i don't want to play it, but i watched you and i watched your senators with like a lame

attempt at responds. they tried to come out and blame your medical care team. again, i'm not going to amplify that, but i want to give you a chance to set the record straight on them. >> yes. they -- they have tried to -- and we even addressed it in the hearing. i can't remember whether they were in the room at that point or not. as you know, they did not stick around for the entire hearing, but we feel very strongly that it was not our health care's team -- our health care team's fault. my doctor consulted with many of her colleagues at the hospital that we were in, at other hospitals both in austin and in other areas in texas in the week that we were dealing with this ordeal we met with many physicians, attendings, residents, specialists and across the board everyone who was involved said that they would have made the same

decision because that's the way that the law is written. and as we know, if they make the wrong decision, they face up to 9 the 9 years in prison and/or they could lose their license. that's because the language in the texas law is so vague, and that's intentional. because after the dobbs decision came down, the biden administration put out guidance on when an abortion should and could be provided, and in my state the attorney general, ken paxton, sued the federal government over those guidelines to have them revoked. so what happened to me, as i mentioned in had the hearing, is, in my opinion, something that he knew would happen and frankly intended to happen. >> well, in your state, which has become a laboratory for the politics of cruelty toward women, they are trying to render illegal mifepristone. i think that you and your team and the people on the side of the truth have boxed in republicans.

it sounds like even senator tillis didn't want to believe the reality or the fact of the result of their policies. did this surprise you? >> i think it was surprising to me just the blatant refual to hear me and to acknowledge what i was saying. i think that, you know, as you said, in texas there are a lot of things that are going on that are making it even harder and harder to access abortion, and they know that those things are happening and they just choose not to address them. you know, a lot of the things that i said directly to the republican senators went completely ignored and unanswered. >> the thing that i see having been in politics, and republican politics, is that it's a conversation you and i had last

time, that they rely on the den egration of the word abortion. you wanted willow as much as anyone could be yet your life depended on your access to abortion to save your life. can you talk about how you r such an inconvenient reality for the republican position on abortion? >> yes. gladly. i think i make them very uncomfortable. if you just look at me, i look like the demographic that needs to hear this message because it's the demographic that wants to put people who need or want abortions into a specific box, right? we know how they're trying to paint the women that need and want abortions as young, single, loose, oftentimes uneducated or under educated, women and people

of color. i don't reflect a lot of that so i make them very uncomfortable. as you mentioned, i went through months and months of fertility treatment to conceive willow. we're desperate to have children and, frankly, that doesn't fit with the message that they're trying to spin. and as i told them at the hearing, the vulgar misrepresentation of what a person who needs and wants an abortion likes is not only stigmatizing but it's offensive and frankly it's just unrealistic of what a person who needs an abortion looks like and i'm a walking representation of that. >> and you used some of your time in this hearing to talk about how you were blessed with a partner and a job and an employer and health care and you really seemed to be cognizant of

the people who can't speak up to them. can you talk about that a little bit? >> yes. thank you for asking that question because it is really important to me to acknowledge that i am the best case scenario. i in this situation am lucky because i didn't die, and it's because of all of the opportunities and all of the fortunes that i have that a lot of people don't have. my husband could take me to the hospital at the drop of a hat. a lot of people don't have somebody that could take them. they don't have jobs that are flexible and would let them, you know, take time off until they got sick. they don't have jobs that would let them speak out now. they don't have the resources. they don't have health insurance. maybe they live too far from a hospital. and so those are all of the people that i feel very, very passionate about speaking out

for because they can't, right? and what's going to happen to them? i think we know the answer. it's what would have happened to me if, again, i didn't have all of the fortunate resources that i have. i probably wouldn't be sitting here talking to you today, and that's what i'm afraid of for everyone else. >> i'm sure you would rather be home with willow than changing the conversation in this country for abortion but i think you are and i want to read some reporting in the washington post that suggests that very well may be the case. in lengthy and often impassioned speeches on the south carolina senate floor, the state's five female senators, three republicans and two democrats, decry what would have been a near total ban on abortion. one, senator sandy senn likened the implications to the dystopian novel the handmade's tale in which women are treated as property of the state. the total ban that's being

debated here today clearly puts the rights of the fetus over the rights of women. that was senator my a mcleod. to be blunt, the majority has no frame of reference. there's only five of us in this body who have actually given birth. some conservative women stood up and dissented to block abortion limits in nebraska and south carolina, very red states. do you feel like your message is breaking through? >> oh, i sure hope so. i don't think it's just me. it's a really big fight. there are people fighting on the ground all over the country and i hear about it every day. and it is so, so invigorating and it gives me so much hope. i do feel that it really is an honor to be able to represent so many people on the scale that i've had the opportunity to do so. i find this to be a tremendous responsibility and i take it incredibly seriously but it is going too take all of us and it

is taking all of us. we are doing it together in every capacity you can imagine. >> i want to ask you one last question about red states. you know, i have a lot of friends in texas. i know a lot of people in red states. what do people in blue states get wrong about people living in red states? >> that's a very broad question. i don't want to speak on behalf of everyone but i can tell you what people get wrong about me living in a red state. even as outspoken as i've been and how clear i think my position is, a lot of people question who i voted for. and i think it's pretty obvious that i would have and have voted democrat and as a matter of fact in our last governor's race i campaigned for beto, actually filmed a campaign ad for him. just because we look like something or we live in a certain place doesn't necessarily mean that we think a

certain way. i think education is critical in this fight and i think having an open mind is going to be crucial. so continuing to have those conversations with your friends and family who live in red states or come from conservative backgrounds, we just have to continue the conversation. and if you can do nothing else to help support this fight, that's one thing that hopefully everyone can do. >> amanda, i think your voice is so important. i think what you did in washington was just remarkable and you always have a chair at our table virtually or otherwise. thank you so much for spending time with us after the week that you've had. >> thank you. thank you so much for having me. when we come back, a complete reversal by republicans on another issue. a key voting rights case ignoring precedence giving them a chance to stay in power. that breaking news after a quick break.

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gerrymandered maps of the state's legislative and congressional districts violated that state's constitution. the newly republican majority today said the court had no authority to overturn those gop skewed maps in the first place. so, as a result, it will be that much easier for republican lawmakers there to build and maintain a permanent veto proof super majority and with it nearly unchecked power as we've seen in states like tennessee. among the long-term effects of such absolute gop control, wholesale voter suppression, especially among black americans. voting rights attorney and founder of democracy docket mark elias joins us. sometimes you're here on the heels of a win. sometimes you're here on the heels of a loss. for democracy this feels like a very anti-democratic day. >> it is, and my message i try to deliver is the same whether i'm here after a win or i'm here after a loss. the fight for democracy is the

fight forever. you can't believe the fight is over when you win be and you can't let the other side discourage you from continuing the fight when you lose. what we saw in north carolina today was what you said, was a partisan supreme court, a court that used to be nonpartisan that republicans forced to run in partisan elections that overruled the decision of the same court three months ago simply because the composition of the court has changed. so it's a terrible decision. it is a terrible outcome for democracy and voting rights in north carolina, but anyone who thinks it's going to stop us from continuing our fight to protect and expand voting rights in democracy is wrong. >> what is it that is -- you know, there was a lot of reporting that suggested that the voter suppression laws were workshoped in d.c. and sort of pushed out. there were 489 of them making their way through 49 states. it was pretty obvious. how much of the agenda in the

state legislatures is being workshoped that way and how much of it is simply now in the dna of republican policy makers? >> so i think you need to put it into two buckets. i think there is part of it that's in the dna. the war on metal containers called drop boxes is at this point in the dna. the war against voter registration, against voting, mail-in voting is in the dna but as we saw from the clita mitchell tapes released online and i know you did some reporting on this, there was also a very targeted effort. she spoke to the republican national committee and she specifically talked about the need to suppress young voters and college voters in particular. and so you do have a coordinated effort at the national level to sort of fine tune the overall anti-voting message and legislation to target for example in 2024 we know there's going to be a concerted effort

to target college voters and young voters in particular. >> on a day like today, what do you do to stay optimistic and hopeful and what can we do? >> you know, i don't have the luxury of not being optimistic. i don't have the luxury to stay, you know what, i'm going to turn the channel from what nicole is talking about and what marc elias is talking about. >> thank you for that. >> what? >> thank you for that because, right, i worry that it's too bleak. go ahead. >> yeah. but -- but -- but like what are we going to do? i told this story before. when i was a young teenager there was a jewish american who had been a prisoner of war in a nazi camp. think about that. jewish american, 18 years old, in a nazi camp and he and his fellow jewish soldiers decided they were going to try to sabotage the nazi war effort by taking little pieces of the war

and poke holes in the produce they were picking and processing. did those jewish prisoners think they were going to cripple the war effort by making the potatoes rot? no. they were doing what they could do. so every day i am poking holes in the potatoes. sometimes the potatoes rot and we win. sometimes the other side finds a way to have sustenance and we lose. fighting authoritarianism, fighting what we're seeing in tennessee, montana, fighting what we're seeing around the country is our job as citizens of this country. and so i -- you know, that's what keeps me going every day. it's not optimism, it's not pessimism, it's just i'm going to poke holes in potatoes until there's nothing left in me to do. >> i love that so much. you have to come to the table because i feel like we have to map this all out. >> invite me! i'll come. >> you come. we'll be here monday, 4:00. you come. really, any day because i think

that's -- i think if everyone understands that's our mission. i take out a potato every day, if we get enough people poking potatoes, we'll have an impact. marc elias, from the bottom of my heart, thank you. reaction from all of this after a quick break. don't go anywhere. like the upshaws. the nelsons. and the caggianos. run with us and start telling your story. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. with skyrizi 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. ♪♪ ♪ it's my moment so i just gotta say ♪ ♪ nothing is everything ♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi.

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conversation, cornell belcher and political strategist matt doud. cornell, how do we turn it into, it's the democracy, stupid? >> yeah. i do think -- well, the good news is that, you know, president biden and vice president harris, they launched their campaign and they are picking up the theme ma particulars of free doom and they're making this a choice about expanded freedom and expanded rights. i think, nicole, they've been listening to doud and i on your show because they're actually picking up some of the advice we were giving them. but, listen, this is such a huge threat, and the more i think about this, the more i listen to this, you know, democracy is on the ballot and we -- and it is, to marc elias's conversation, it is the fight of our time.

i don't think enough of us realize we're in that fight right now. when you look at what's happening in states like north carolina and tennessee and you name the republican state, particularly in the south, where diversity is at its greatest, and, nicole, you think, look, we are about a decade naf away from america becoming awfully close to the tipping point from majority/minority. is their plan to disenfranchise half of america? and in states like georgia and north carolina, that's becoming even faster. in georgia they're awfully close at 2030. we're going to have to reckon and deal with diversity. i'm always brought back to the quote by benjamin franklin, it's a democracy if you can keep it. we're going to be close in the next decade or so to figure out if we can keep this democracy

and if all-americans are in for democracy. at some point you have to get more people with skin in this game. i think black and brown people cannot want democracy, nicole, more than white americans. if black and brown people want democracy more than white americans, this all fails. >> and white americans will be foolish to think they're not coming for you next. there just -- as amanda zurawski said on this show, she's a less obvious candidate. make no doubt about it, they're coming for all of us, matt doud. >> we've talked about this so many times i think we could replay so much of what we said in 2022 but we're facing it again. as marc elias said, we're going to keep facing it. i think the fundamental thing is, whether they admit it or not, the republican party has admitted they can't win the battle of ideas. it used to be let's debate health care policy or let's

debate tax policy and we'll present it to the american public, our ideas, thoughts, policies and let them make that decision on our ideas, thoughts and policies and we'll try to convey them the best we can. republicans can't do that. they don't want the election day to look like america. i firmly believe, clita mitchell all but said this in what she said to the rnc, if election day looks like america, the republicans can't win the battle of ideas if election day looks like america. this is the first time we can machblg.

we allowed -- we allowed african americans the right to vote. and then 18-year-olds had the right to vote and we kept expanding more people to expand to allow their voice to be heard. now republicans have decided that idea is bad. that idea of having universal suffrage and the ability for the american public to be reflected on election day and to make the decisions of how to hold people accountable is not good for their politics. what's their answer? not to argue on your show or on anybody's show about their ideas and how good their ideas are, no, that's not their plan. their plan is how do we roll back this in such a way so the demographics we want right now temporarily, which as cornell said is fast changing and they know this, they know it's fast changing, how do they roll that back so election day does not look like what the country looks like? >> well, cornell, to your point, the leader of the democratic

party, president joe biden and vice president kamala harris, message received. they seemed to have wrapped their candidacy around the idea of freedom or something that doesn't look like a democracy. we have our evidence from 2022. the voters are nodding along with them. how does that make you feel heading into an election season? >> i'm still very anxious. >> me too. me too. yeah. >> i'm still very anxious because to doud's point, look, they are increasingly -- if turnout is somewhere 60% or above, it's hard for donald trump to generate anything over 46%. let's level set. he's a 46% president, right? he's not been able to get above 46, but because of the quirk of our electoral process, you can become president with 46%. it's not probable, but he -- but it can happen. lightning can strike again.

all of us have to be engaged in this idea of democracy and fight for it. >> when we have marc elias -- go ahead. >> no, i wanted to say. i'm anxious, too, maybe i'm irish and i'm always -- as you knew from 2004, i posted that yates column on my door. the irish have an abiding sense of terror. even when we win i worry about what's going to happen next. michigan is a perfect example of the success. michigan voted for donald trump in 2016. michigan was the hot bed and is the hot bed of the right wing militia, right? they went through a structural change, independent redistricting board, look what they're doing? they passed gun reform. passed protections on women's health care. it passed all of these things. democracy can work and get it done, we just have to roll up our sleeves. >> when we do our hour on this with marc elias, the two of you

have to round out our table, either at the table or virtually. cornell and matt. thank you so much. quick break for us. we'll be right back. health insurance commercial. take 1. cut! cut! one more. i got this. cut! take 37. cut! i don't actually play tennis. i'm just an actor in a commercial. most insurance companies don't know me. but humana does. when i was diagnosed with copd, they helped me to manage it and keep my medication costs low. even got me playing harmonica to help my lungs. motorcycle scene. take 1. i can't ride this thing either. better care begins with listening. humana. a more human way to healthcare. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. with the money we saved, we tried electric unicycles. i think i've got it! doggy-paddle!

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