is he over extended? is he too much into being taylor sheridan, this is my line, you're not going to fool with the line. you're going to show up. how much of it is on him? >> that certainly is the line that the costner cap is putting out there. if you read some of the media. -- it's not just two or three shows, it's a dozen shows that taylor has in development, both on the air and plans for the next couple of years. including all the yellowstone prequel's, he did 1883, 1923. very planning on doing yellowstone every other decade, going up to the president. >> that does, it for morning joe weekend, we'll be back monday at 6 am eastern. have a great rest of the day. this is the katie phang show, live from washington d.c..

we've got lawson uso cover, and lots of questions to answer. so let's get started. that ceiling showdown, house speaker kevin mccarthy not just a win in the house, but his victory lap may run out of gas in the senate. or live on capitol hill with the latest as the nation inches closer to a debt default. plus, telling their side, the same moment a woman suing former president trump for an alleged rape it is giving tearful -- over price -- jerry six insurrection in d.c.. we're going in-depth on all those trump troubles ahead. later, desantis drama, florida governor ron desantis arrives at the white house, while the house memos hits him with the federal lawsuit. we go inside the drama and how it will impact his presidential aspirations. all of this and more is coming up. and a good saturday morning to

you, i am katie phang. we start today's show with the standoff over the debt ceiling. speaker kevin mccarthy is taking a premature victory lap after house republicans narrowly lashed to raise the debt limit. the bill aims to slash federal spending and rollback key pieces of president biden's domestic agenda. that plan is expected to be dead on arrival in the democratic-led senate. president biden has made it clear, he'll veto any debt ceiling package that comes with strings attached. with the nations stifel deadline quickly approaching, the pressure is on for democrats and biden to come to the negotiating table before it's too late. nbc news, capitol correspondent, joey tsirkin joins us now. good morning julie, it's nice to see you. is speaker mccarthy is targeting government assistance program, including medicaid and food stamps with this bill. let's talk about the numbers. about 93 million americans are on medicaid, while nearly 42 americans receive s.n.a.p. benefits. that's a huge portion of our

population. how are democrats on the hill responding? >> good morning, katie. democrats are saying this is dead on arrival. not a single democrat voted for this bill in the house. senate majority leader, schumer, says this bill is not going anywhere except for the graveyard in the senate. when you talk about those social safety net programs, the snap benefits, food stamps, that's all part of changes that kevin mccarthy, the speaker, made to work requirements to get to that four and a half trillion dollars in cuts he hopes the spill will achieve over the next decade. again, this bill would fund, would pay the nations debt through mid 2024, setting up another potential battle at the middle of an election season. again, this bill isn't going anywhere, so we don't expect that to even happen. we do, we are inching closer to the default deadline. right now, we're almost in may, so the vibe around here. i gotta say, as i talked with democrats in the senate, especially, they are feeling the pressure and they are

feeling a little bit concerned. as of right now, this is the only bill that has passed. democrats hadn't passed a bill in the senate yet. the democrat-controlled senate. they're not really clear what's going to happen from here, and again we're just weeks away from the default deadline if that does come in june, which is expected to at this moment. >> julie, quickly, is the house gop seeing this win for mccarthy? mccarthy barely got enough votes to become speaker of the house. >> yeah, i have to tell you, they are. look, the expectations were really, really low. mccarthy barely squeeze this one out here. in fact, his leadership team were trying to convince folks to vote for this bill up until very minutes before it happened. i talked to a lot of them who tell me, this is the bare minimum that they will accept. that certainly ring some alarm bells for speaker mccarthy and the leadership team, because they can't get anything else, including a compromise package with democrats, potentially, in the future. the support of republicans in his conference. that i will say, they see this as a victory, because this at

least brings republicans to the negotiating table. now they can put pressure on president biden, who's been wanting, who doesn't want to negotiate over the debt ceiling in conjunction with spending cuts. now speaker mccarthy saying, here we, pass something, now it's time to talk. >> julie tsirkin, as always, thank you for joining us this morning. we're gonna turn now to some breaking news. a shooter on the run after a deadly mass shooting overnight in the state of texas. officials confirm five people tragically, including an eight-year-old, are dead, and three others are wounded. this all happened at a home in cleveland, texas, which is about 45 miles north of houston. the sand has saying throw -- a total of ten people were in the house at the time of the shooting. investigators haven't released the shooter's identity, but the nbc affiliate reports that they are looking for a suspect right now. we're going to update the story as more information becomes available. meanwhile, parts of iowa and several of the midwestern states are underwater this morning as the mississippi

river continues to swell at historic levels. s toendeavor port, iowa, what you're seeing right here on your screen, the river is expected to crest next week over 21 feet. that's the highest level since 2019. california is also bracing for severe flooding next to record snow pack this winter, now melting out of this year in a vada. state officials warning the flood threat could win over parts of the state, all the way into july. and tonight's the night, the 2023 annual white house correspondents dinner kicks off at 8 pm eastern. at its roots, the dinner is about supporting the journalist further work, it's also an evening where the biggest names of media and politics, including the president, come together to poke fun at themselves and each other. comedian and daily show correspondent, junior, is hosting the event this year, and assure to roast at least a few people. nbc news white house correspondent, monica alba's joins us now for more. monika, good morning. any insight into what we could hear from roy wood junior and president biden tonight at the

dinner? >> i think roasts are a safe breath, katie. i think that's always a part of this tradition, which is go back decades. and which, you said it, it's really meant to celebrate the first amendment, the critically important work of journalists, not just in the united states, in terms of holding, powerful people accountable, but around the world. that is why you're going to hear president biden, tonight specifically, also talk about wrongfully detained americans who have been held, calling for the release. but specifically talking about evan gershkovich, that wall street journal reporter, who has been accused of spying and is being held in russia, which of course, the united states has designated he is wrongfully detained, and they completely refute any of those charges. while this does tend to be a lighthearted event with many jokes, there will also be a pretty serious undertone given that. and then also some very tragic and controversial things that

have happened in the country in the last year since the president last spoke. i think, you always can see the president and the host and comedian weaving those two things in together while, of course, talking about karina vance. we did hear that roy wood junior was making edits to his jokes, even today, what you can expect with so many fast moving developments in the media world and elsewhere. there will be a combination of those two things, but at the end of the day, it's a critically important dinner celebrating journalists, earning some who have been, given this national recognition. and then also really lifting up some young journalist, some white house correspondents -- who are also very enjoyable to meet and talk to these kinds of events. >> monica, p four i have to let you go, i do want to ask, biden last night spoke at a strategy summit with donors, and that summit will continue into today. what can you tell us about that? >> yeah, at the moment that the president announced his reelection this week, a really

important clock started taking, and that's one to start raising money. last time around, for the 2020 cycle, the biden campaign raised more money than any other in history, with more than a billion dollars. a lot of people expect that they will have to raise even more than that to keep up in 2024, so that's why the president invited dozens of the highest dollar donors, who have raised money for him and will continue to donate for his campaign to talk here at a hotel in washington d.c.. he, essentially, it laid out his vision for why he's running again, and really asked for their help in this mission. and then, today, that continues. the senior top aides who really, are the kind of conduit between the campaign and the white house, are going to be meeting with those dozens of donors to really talk about the battleground start strategy going forward, and what they hope to, what they say, expand their winning 2020 coalition. they really are trying to also talk about how that will work when, in reality, we're not going to see the president on the campaign trail in the

traditional sense, for many months to come. katie. >> monica alba, thank you so much for the latest. don't forget to tune in or send your dvr's -- for coverage of the white house correspondents dinner tonight at 8 pm eastern, right here, on msnbc and streaming on peacock. and coming up, a former vice president raising his right hand and promising to tell the truth and nothing but the truth before a federal grand jury. after the break, why mike pence is more than seven hours of testimony matters. and marks a -- investigation. we have so much more at the katie phang show this morning, so keep it right here on msnbc. right here on msnbc when it comes to your hair, ingredients matter. that's why herbal essences is packed with naturally derived plant ingredients you love, and none of the stuff you don't. our sulfate-free collections smell incredible... ♪

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turn slowly, but for donald trump, they're now shifting into high gear. on thursday, former vice president mike pence testified

before a federal grand jury, investigating the january six insurrection. nbc news has learned that the grand jury, convened by special counsel jack smith, is specifically interested in trump's effort to try to block the certification of the 2020 presidential election. meanwhile, in new york, -- carol took the stand -- against trump. she began her powerful testimony by telling tierney, quote, i'm here because donald trump raped me. on wednesday, she was cross-examined by trump lawyer, joe tacopina, where the judge had to admonish several times for being argumentative, repetitive and inappropriate. that covina grills carroll and why she didn't scream during the alleged attack in the storage dressing room in the 1990s. she responded, quote, until i knew he rate me, whether i screamed or not. carol is expected to be back on the stand for her crump's examination when her trial resumes on monday. -- alabama, tennessee veasey -- in the co so -- joyce, good morning, to you and the chickens, grateful to have

you join us this morning. let's start with the aging carroll case. -- talks about how important a jean carlsbad appealed it will be when the jury goes to deliberate. you also point out that joe tacopina tried to tear down that credibility by, quote, using some of the war strategies defense lawyers use in cross some nation in a case involving a sexual assault. how are those strategies dangerous for trump's defense? >> well, the problem that defense lawyers have on cross-examination in a case like this, katie, is that even though it's not a criminal rape prosecution, the civil case nears the same sorts of issues. the defense lawyer has to do two things. he's got to make the victims story not credible in the eyes of the jury. there is got to be some effort to diminish the victim's credibility. frankly, from what we've been able to see, of course, there

are camels in the score room, and we're reading the print outs of what's going on, he doesn't really seem to touch carroll. she's a very determined, very fierce witness. her story is consistent, and there is no real inroads he makes there. he falls into this other trap that the defense lawyers have to be wary of in a sexual assault case, by going on the attack against carroll he runs the risk of making her credibility stronger, of putting the jury on her side and willing to listen to her testimony. that looks to be how the trial is going at this moment. >> so, there's more to the e. jean carroll case that we haven't heard, including the jury, the jury hasn't heard from two other-elect victims a sexual assault by donald trump, as well as that infamous access hollywood tape. joyce, do you think that that is a factor in trump's decision not to appear in court at all, to defend himself from e. jean carroll's claims. >> so, trump gave a deposition

in this case. by all accounts, that deposition was not particularly productive for him. for instance, after saying that carole wasn't his type, he missed identified a photo of her around the time of the alleged rape as his second wife, marlon maples. with that sort of a deposition available on the witness stand, he would face the prospect of having that play while he's testifying. i think that explains his strategy of staying away. there is nothing good for him in this case. he, in essence, is already ceded the fact, and is just waiting for the outcome. >> let's switch years, now, joyce, while i have you. it's also been a very busy week for special counsel jack smith and his investigations. not only did mike pence testify, as we mentioned, a few minutes ago, but the new york times is reporting that federal prosecutors are looking into possible wire fraud thing to trump and his aides fundraising off the big lie. does this more nuanced angle

focusing on the fundraising and the wire fraud, signify to you, joyce, that jack smith is getting closer to securing an indictment? >> so, i think it's hard to say, close, oh for his, are we all know about finding willis and the imminent issue. i think prosecutors are moving along at an appropriate speed, and that's really what we want to see them do. katy, you'll remember, we talked about it at the time, this fraudulent fund raising effort was one of the surprise issues that developed during the houses january six committee hearings, where we heard from some of the staff members, and from congress woman is a law for, and who talked about this notion that trump had continued to raise money off of the big lie even after he was fully aware he lost the election. so, the tough issue here for prosecutors, if they want to charge trump, they will have to prove that he had an intent to defraud. they will have to time to the development and the execution of this scheme.

if they're successful in putting that together, wire fraud is a bread and butter triage for -- and something that they're very adept at bringing. nbc news is also reporting that mike pence is inside testifying -- for the entire day. what kinds of questions, joyce, is pence facing by special counsel, jack smith, considering there's no executive privilege, because the court says that doesn't apply, and there's a very narrow lane of speech and debate protections for mike pence. >> right, so we don't know how broadly pence decided to interpret his speech or debate clause immunity. we don't know how many or what types of questions he declined to answer. in that situation, where he is refusing to answer questions, prosecutors would then have to go back to the judge for a ruling. that's an annoying and time consuming process. we do know, at least, that pence was there for roughly seven hours. prosecutors are very likely

focused on three specific days. although you have to be interested in in the entire course of conversation between trump and pence in the run up to the election, and whether trump ever confided in pence about his early intends to hold on to power, whether he won the election or not. on the fourth, there's this meeting in the oval office with john eastman, where pence is directly approached about interference was certification of the electoral college. on the fifth, pence has a conversation with trump, again in the oval office, and on the morning of the six, where pence makes the decision not to go into the white house, he has a phone call with the former president. mike pence is one of two people who knows the contents of all of those conversation from both sides. it's time for him to answer those conversations in front of the grand jury, and i suspect that's where the special counsel's office is focused. >> i also don't think it's a coincidence, joyce, that less than a day after the appeals

court said that trump's attempt to block pence's testimony was going to work. pence ran, like josh hawley, to the grand jury. joyce vance, thank you for joining us this morning, i appreciate you, as always. >> thanks, katie. >> and up next, don't mess with the house of mouse. disney large is a massive lawsuit against florida governor ron desantis and others who are reportedly -- making donors overseas ahead every presidential bid. we're sorting out all of this disney desantis drama straight ahead. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. mara, are you sure you don't want -to go bowling with us tonight? -yeah. no. there's my little marzipan! [ laughs ] oh, my daughter gives the best hugs! we're just passing through on our way to the jazz jamboree. [ imitates trumpet playing ] and we wanted to thank america's number-one motorcycle insurer -for saving us money. -thank you. [ laughs ] mara, your parents are -- exactly like me? i know, right? well, cherish your friends and loved ones.

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since the company publicly opposed his so-called don't say gay -- sexual orientation and gender identity curriculum in the classroom. but the governor wasn't even in florida, let alone the united states to hear this news. and said, this week, he was in japan, south korea and other countries, including israel, on what he called an international trade mission. axios reporting that desantis dined with some major republican voters, while jerusalem, including major donor -- top backer for former president trump during his presidential run in 2020. adding fuel to the possibility of a presidential campaign fire, four gop operatives tell nbc news that the florida governor can jump into the 2024 race as soon as the coming weeks. joining me now is democratic florida state center, jason piso. it's always good to have you on the show, even though rhonda sentence is outside of the state, this week, he couldn't escape answering questions about that disney lawsuit. take a quick listen up and responding to a question on that lawsuit while in

jerusalem. >> i don't think the suit has a merit, i think it's political. i think they filed, you know, intel ozzie for a reason because they're trying to generate, some district court decision. we're very confident on the law. the days of putting one company on a pedestal with no accountability are over in the state of florida. >> i mean, putting aside the hypocrisy, senator, of desantis bemoaning politicization of anything, what do you make of this latest term in his fight with disney, and frankly, and more importantly, how is it hurting your state? it's not every day that a state's largest employer will sue its governor. >> today example of irony, katie, is that the sentence is on a trade mission in other countries when he is just the absolute worst governor for business. we've opened no new large corporation, no new footprint here, we're not business friendly. it's three strikes in your out. this is the third disney bill that we've done in the past

year, and it's all because he was personally insulted that, how dare accompany was 77,000 employees over 20,000 acres, given over a billion dollars into sale tax revenue in the state of florida, how did they open their mouth in defense of their employees. >> senator, you know, this battle is coming as desantis is way of possible 2024 run for the oval office. you served in tallahassee for many years, what is it about desantis, putting aside his inability to generate business for the state of florida, what is about him that is just not going to translate nationally. is it the anti -- policies? the six-week abortion ban? what is it about him that won't resonate nationally with voters? >> he socially awkward. he has difficulty, you know, engaging with people. republicans say all the time that they spend more time with him than i do, he lacks compassion and grace. there's nothing warm about him. maybe -- the american people, at least

in my generation and yours, have needed to see some bit of humanity and people. he will be longing for those days when he had very prepared press conferences and control off audiences and very narrowly tailored media presentations. when he gets out on the road, people will see. listen, i'm in tallahassee, one more week left of the session to continue with the bills on his whims and wishes, but the republicans, they're not with the side is. i think, if you hear people here, republicans and tell us hasse saying they're looking forward to desantis running for president, it's to get out of here and get out of the way. it's not because they're in support. >> so, let's switch topics just a little bit, obviously very relevant. on thursday, the circuit court of appeals cited with ron desantis despite overturning a lower federal courts decision on a controversial -- espy 90. the trial court had ruled that every single challenge provision of as we 90 has a

disparate impact on black voters in some way. the appeals court says the law, which bans -- limits use of mail drop boxes and -- that those things don't violate the united states constitution. what are democrats in florida compared to do to protect voters as we head towards a critical 2024 election? >> look, desantis, over his time here, has said in the two elections, both the first one that he won, and then even in 2020, and the coming into 22, that was a model state for election integrity and efficiency and we do things right. again, was a national model. here's the reality. especially during covid, and thereafter, democrats became very good at using drop boxes and vote by mail. now, we have yet another voting bill this week, which is titled, resigned to run, that the governor no longer has to do that if he's running for president to clarify --

democrats need to go and start knocking on doors. democrats need to actually have a message, we need to stop being so reactive and defensive and talk about fight, fight, fight, fight. or you know, at least fight forward instead of back. >> well, senator pizarro, it's a six-week abortion ban, permit -less carry, lowering the age to 18 to carry guns, and a war on diversity equity inclusion. if that's the record for ron desantis, i'm not quite sure anybody wants that. florida seat senator, jason peters, thanks for joining us this morning as always. >> thank you. >> and coming up next, the war on women. my next guest explains how the abortion ban in texas almost killed her and why she's not afraid to speak truth to power. there's much more of the katie phang show this morning, so keep it right here on msnbc. n msnbc. that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that...

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overturning of roe v. wade, 14 republican led states have outlawed abortion, putting a direct target on women's lives. in texas, it's been a year since a six-week ban went into effect, where doctors who violate that law face losing their licenses, pay 100,000 dollar fine, and are punishable up to life in prison. the only exception for an abortion in texas is, if it would save a pregnant woman's life, or reduce the, quote, risk of substantial impairment

of major bodily function. if you're scratching your head, a lot of people are to, because many say that that law is just too vague. leaving medical providers to decide if and when they can legally perform the procedure. amanda doroski is one of the five women suing the state of texas after being denied an abortion, despite facing life-threatening pregnancy complications. on wednesday, amanda called out her texas senators by name during a senate judiciary committee hearing. take a listen. >> i wanted to address my senators, cruz and cornyn, neither of whom are regrettably or in the room right now, but i would like for them to know that would happen to me, i think most people in this room would agree, is horrific. but it's a direct result of the policies that they support. i nearly died on their watch. >> joining me now, i have the privilege of having amanda zurawski, the person that you just heard testifying in

congress. amanda, your story is compelling, like many others, but i really wanted to focus on you and you today and to explain to our viewers what happened. you and your husband were high school sweethearts who got married, and then you underwent grueling fertility treatments for 18 months before you finally became pregnant with your baby, who you named willow. talk about how devastating it was when you learned that you lose your baby. >> absolutely, hi katie. thank you for having me. so yeah, we actually met in preschool. we've known each other since we were four, and my husband, josh and i, and we knew right away that we wanted to have family and have children. unfortunately, as you mentioned, it was really difficult for us to get pregnant. so when we found out i was pregnant, we were just over the moon. the first trimester, first 17 weeks and six days, it went really, really smoothly, and so we got that news that i had

cervical insufficiency, which meant i was dilating prematurely and -- inevitable, we were inevitably going to lose her. it was just extreme shock. just devastation, despair, and then on top of all of that, we also had to deal with the implications of the law. >> what did your doctors tell you, amanda, about why they couldn't give you, provide you with what would otherize wise be a standard medical procedure in another state, where abortions are permitted? >> so, i asked the many health care professionals that we saw, not just my obi, but also maternal fetal medicine doctors, attending residents, anyone who would listen to me. i asked what can we do? over and over, they said there was nothing that they can do, because the laws in texas

prevented them from intervening and providing health care, in this case, and abortion. willow's heart was still beating, and i wasn't considered sick enough, that my life was at risk. until one of those two things changed, there was nothing that they felt like they could do without potentially being prosecuted under the texas law. >> talk about that traumatic waiting period, where you had to wait for something to happen. that waiting period between learning that you weren't going to be able to have your baby and when you developed sepsis. what were you thinking and feeling? >>. we it was the absolute worst three days of my life. it's a three days for me to go into septic shock, which at that point, they were able to intervene. for those three days, you know, i look back on them and i think, it was a blur for me because it

was such shock and despair that i was dealing with. i've said to my family, i know i ace, i know i was awake, but it was just such a blur because it was such devastation. a lot of fear, to. i didn't know what was going to happen to me. this was my first pregnancy, so i didn't know what it would be like if i did go into labor, or if her heart didn't stop. i was afraid of getting sick, but i certainly didn't think that i was going to get as sick as i did. so, it was just a lot of confusion and just belief that this was something i was dealing with. it was 2022 in the united states, and this was why reality. it just kept saying to josh over and over again, i can't believe this is happening. i still can't believe this happened. >> so, amanda, you ended up becoming -- you ended up having and developing sepsis. and then you ended up having to deliver your stillborn

daughter. what are the lasting consequences, now, for you, both physically and emotionally? >> that's a good question. we don't have that full answer, yet. it's been eight months since we lost willow, and we know that it's going to be harder for you to get paid again, even harder than it was the first time. i had a number of tests and i did actually have to have surgery to remove the scar tissue that was built up in my uterus as a result of the sepsis. one of my fallopian tubes is permanently close. they were able to get all the scar tissue out of my uterus, but one of my fallopian tubes, unfortunately, is permanently compromised. and so, we have been advised to go straight to ivf this time. i can share with you that we have attempted several cycles of ivf and so far we have not been successful. >> amanda, you're a part of a

lawsuit where you're suing the state of texas. what do you want to achieve from bringing this lawsuit, not only for yourself, but for the women that are in texas? >> good question. with our lawsuit, specifically, it's a number of things. of course, we want to educate people so that they understand what the laws truly mean, and the real impact that they're having because there's a lot of confusion there. we want a court to rule when an abortion can be provided, and we wanted to be a lot more clear. right now, the language is so vague that doctors are left grappling with what they can and can't do and what health care they can and can't provide. they are as a medical experts. they should be the one making those decisions, and right now, they don't feel like they can because the law is so vague. we're hopeful that a court can help clarify when an abortion can be provided. on top of that, i'm hopeful, we

are as a first lawsuit of this nature since the overturning of roe, and so we're hopeful that, because we know that this is happening across the country and this is happening to so many other women, that hopefully, we can be the first, but it can give other woman who might have been through something similar, the courage to take similar action in their states. we know that this is going to take all of us, and we're going to have to fight across the country. somebody has to be the first, but we're hoping that others will join us along the way. >> well, amanda, i want to share with you that i wish you and your husband and your family the best of luck with this. i want you to come back and keep us posted on what is going on. you talk about the courage, but that's what you have, in your ability to speak out and tell the story, if you didn't, there would be a lot of people that weren't aware of about how important it is to have reproductive freedom. amanda zurawski, i thank you so

much for the privilege of your time today and sharing the story. >> absolutely, thank you for having me. >> and coming up, and equal justice for all? one minus guest says democrats are simply not doing enough to address the, quote, as uncle ron festering away on the bench of the supreme court. keep it right here. >>ep it right here >> (cecily) you're looking pleased with yourself. (seth) well, not to brag, but i just switched my whole family to verizon. (neighbor) i got that deal too. (seth) oh hey, bragging buddies! (neighbor) my man! (cecily) this i don't need. (seth) you should give me a call! (vo) with verizon, your family gets the network they can rely on and the disney bundle with disney+, hulu, and espn+ included. all for just $35 a line. that's a savings of $240 a year. the savings you want. on the network worth bragging about. verizon (man) what if my type 2 diabetes takes over?

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supreme problems. chief justice john roberts eating, thanks but no thanks to congress, turning down a, quote, invitation from the judiciary chairman dick durbin to testify at a hearing on ethics rules. the invite follows his fellow justice clarence thomas coming under scrutiny for -- previously undisclosed trips and gifts from -- the new report from the internship says crow may have

bought citizenship to an island nation in order to avoid paying taxes. meanwhile the guardian is reporting -- events the supreme court nominee, brett kavanaugh, may contain some serious omissions. those were the words. republican-led judiciary seated at the time, there is no evidence to any is a claims of sexual assault against brett kavanaugh. joining me now to help us break it all down, is l in the soil, justice correspondent of the nation, and author of allow me to retort. elie, i tweeted out, it's elie, that's the sweet. i stand by it. we'll never have enough time to get to everything, salacious go for it now. at least for the nation you describe the situation at the high court -- supreme court. is this really boiling down to a super conservative majority on the highest -- not wanting to cede any ground to external oversight? >> i think it comes down to nine people will believe themselves to be above the law, and better than the rest of us,

simply not willing to submit to basic independent ethical oversight. i actually don't think that this is a liberal conservative thing that happens to be the conservatives right now, that are most obviously on the take, but the larger issue here is the way that the supreme court has always operated in secret, and things that it's entitled to, and think that's it's above the law. that's what needs to be stopped, and that's what needs to be stopped by congress. these people are not gods. there are not kings, they're not rulers. they work for us. at some point, it is reasonable to expect these people to submit to the same ethical requirements that would apply to a traffic court judge in peoria. >> elie, let's talk about chief justice roberts turning down that invitation to appear -- let's talk about the logistics of it, though.

how realistic is the idea of serving a subpoena on someone like john roberts. where is the precedent on this? >> roberts was trying to be really slippery by saying, well chief justices don't appear before congress to testify. that's true. other supreme court justices appear before congress to testify, including justices that have been on the robbers court while roberts was on it. all right. so the idea that justices never testify before congress is just bunk, and it's just that classic kind of lawyer trip trick that robert is trying to -- he thinks he smarter than everyone else and doesn't realize people can see what he's doing. the larger issues that you're getting at, i think the fundamental problem with his hearing, as it has been diligently constructed by dick durbin, it's the idea that -- whether we need to ask the supreme court to apply its own ethical standards to itself. once you asked the supreme

court to sue police itself, which is ridiculous. the supreme court cannot police itself. it's proven that it can't police itself. asking it super nicely, oh, john, would you please police yourself right now, is down. when lisa happen is not asking the supreme court just police itself, we need to have congressional legislation to police the supreme court. that's not apparently what this hearing is all about. that's why i don't think that the invitation was ever going to go anywhere. of course, roberts doesn't want to show up. it's the kind of thing we're like, if you ask a high school football player who just, you know, just got accepted to texas a&m. hey buddy, you want to tell me about your new car? what's he gonna say? no, i'm good, son. i do want to talk about my new car today. that's what roberts is right now. he doesn't want to talk about his life. he doesn't want to talk about his friends. he doesn't want to talk about harlan crow. he doesn't want to talk about land deals and book deals. he doesn't want to talk about it. no one is going to make, him so why would he? that's what happens when you

let these people police themselves, they just don't. >> okay, so, let's talk about the timing in the grand scheme. -- for example, facing scrutiny of his own with new reporting that he didn't disclose a buyer of a property that he -- turns out that was a lawyer whose law firm had, quote, robust business before fourth and at least 22 cases since that deal. elie, i scratch your back, you scratch mine. listen, that's been around for years. you can't believe that this just sprang forth in just a few years. why not heightened scrutiny, no pun intended, why heighten it now? >> the thing about gorsuch that's funny, he listed who gave him other gifts. he knew had to fill out the form, he put other peoples names down, but this land deal, no, no, no. he didn't want that name down. gorsuch knows he's full of it, and i think everybody does. why is this happening now is the interesting question, right. it's happening now because

somebody decided to look. again, it just proves that the supreme court can do it themselves. we're only doing it -- because propublica decided to look. and this is what they found. other journalists are deciding to look, and you know, by the way, katie, that if they find that -- got a bottle of nail polish from revlon, you know that's coming out on the wall street journal front page. you know that there are people who are looking now, because a supreme court has not been doing the job. it's all coming out now because somebody is bothering to look. who should that embarrass? congress! which was a body that was supposed to have oversight over these people. the supreme court will not have oversight over itself. congress will not take oversight over the supreme court. then we really are in a world were like, i hope republicans carry, because if not, we'll never know. that's the world we live in. never know that's why it's all happening now. it's not that there is, i don't think there is a rush or an epidemic of self dealing.

i think this is a self dealing that's gone on all along, and it's just now that people are bothering to look. >> well, i will say this, as you and i depart, there's never enough time to spend with you. you and i can go for a lot longer, but i would say, you know who we can subpoena from congress? you can subpoena harlan crow. harlan koch and be subpoenaed. maybe he can come testify to his dealings. thank you, elie mystal, -- and appreciate it. >> thanks, katie. >> joining me this morning, i'll be back here tomorrow where i will welcome republican south carolina state send senator, sandy -- abortion ban in her state. we were to follow us on twitter, instagram and tiktok using the handle at katie phang show. stay tuned, the saturday show as my friend john the key part is coming up next. g up next. helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. how to grow more vibrant flowers:

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