as a business owner, your bottom line is always top of mind. so start saving by switching to the mobile service designed for small business: comcast business mobile. flexible data plans mean you can get unlimited data or pay by the gig. all on the most reliable 5g network, with no line activation fees or term contracts... saving you up to 75% a year. and it's only available to comcast business internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today. today on velshi there are five comcast business. powering possibilities™. women in the entire south carolina state senate, and this week they banded together to block passage of a new total plan on abortion in their state. i will talk to two of those, senators both republicans, about why they did it and where they think their party should stand on reproductive rights. plus, the special counsel

investigating donald trump's role in the january six insurrection has finally secured the testimony of former vice president, mike pence. i will talk to one of pence's former top aides and the day after i last spoke with volodymyr carr moussa, the russian opposition figure was arrested for speaking out against russia's invasion of ukraine. he has now been sentenced to 25 years in prison. his wife, the afghan-y tara bosa, goings me this morning. today's meeting of the velshi book club futures award-winning author, lauren broths, who is acclaimed story of marriage and identity with -- was removed from public shelves in her home state of. florida chill talked me about the book and the ban. velshi starts now. good morning to, you it is saturday april 29th and i'm ali velshi. back in 2020, most of the country had not heard of his

always ever. but as the montana legislature was in session that, year she was playing close attention to the bills that were being introduced. and she was privately tweeting about. them zephyr a, trans woman was particularly enraged about espy to 80, which is a piece of legislation which would've made it difficult for transgender people to update their birth certificates. she commented that having my breath certificate updated and having it removed my dead name is one -- meaning the name of the transgender person wasn't given at birth,. but no longer goes by, it was one of the good stories of experienced. moments, later the bill passed the state senate by the slimmest margins, 26 to 24. this effort took note and wrote, quote, it would only take 1% of protecting my community from discrimination. if that is a make it clear what we need as trans representation of government, i don't know what will. and ten minutes later, so he's ever tweeted again saying, i'm filled with a mix of fear, slash rage about what montana is doing to me and my community in a burning drive to fight

against it. next, year and one run for office in the montana legislature. zephyr followed through with that promise and was elected to office late last november. she chose to fight against the tide of intolerance and justice against herself in her community during a time when legislative attacks on the lgbtq community have only gotten worse. a record number of anti lgbtq bills have already been introduced in state legislatures across the country, during the first four months of this year. 469, according to the aclu, that's already more than twice as many as last year. it's not even may. on thursday, a zephyr was censored and banished from the state capital, forcing her to work remotely for the remainder of the current legislative session and unable to participate in debates. her crime was a breach of decorum, for saying that members will have quote, blood on your hands, and quote, for voting for a bill that will ban gender affirming care for transgender minors in her state. which by the, way was signed

into law yesterday by montana's governor, greg jia forte. we're gonna talk about gender affirming care and what that means later in the show. but suffer, the third youngest freshman democratic lawmaker -- republican dominated state legislature for breaking decorum. just the past three weeks. earlier this month you will remember justin jones and justin pearson were expelled for their positions for leading protests against gun violence on the house floor along with a third colleague, gloria johnson, a white lawmaker who was not ultimately expelled. their protest and subsequent expulsions happened just days after six people, including three nine-year-old children, were killed in a mass shooting at a school in nashville. part of america's epidemic of mass shootings that is on record page this year, according to analysis by the associated press. maybe the elder statesman and -- men and women -- have found lawmakers like jones, pearson, suffer, to brush into confrontational and delivering

their messages. but they are meeting the moment. after years of inaction on a number of issues that directly affect them and their peers, frankly all of, us they could have let themselves be defeated by the repeated trauma of mass school shootings. they could have been paralyzed by the existential fear of climate change in societies seeming indifference to it. they could have been embittered by the lack of progress on social justice issues and the active efforts to rollback reproductive rights, lgbtq freedoms and other personal liberties. they could have been disillusioned by the disintegration of democracy after living through an insurrection into elections where the candidates with your votes won the presidency, but they are not. instead, they are in the halls of state capitals, demanding that their representatives take action on gun violence and they are taking to the streets to protect and restore americans reproductive rights. as max frost put it during a rally he held earlier this week, they are young and fed up. and now, as the younger generations of americans into

the halls of government, the political discourse will be much richer for it. if we let them speak. and that's what we're gonna do right now. i'm joined now by two of those young and emerging voices, the republicans tried to silence them a few weeks ago. the tennessee state representative, justin jones and justin j. pearson who were both expelled for breaking to quorum but studs have been reinstated to their seats by the towns that they are from. gentlemen, good to see both of you. representative jones, it's good to see you again. he won at the other night had that one of the most interesting conversations of my entire career. and i got shivers down my spine that i'm talking to two history makers right now. representative pierson, welcome to the show. you, you and i have not spoken before. but you have made strong stances, both of, you and i will start with you, representative pierson, about how this is going to be the way it is. you and your generation and people like, you and so is, effort and maxwell frost, you're not afraid to break the china. >> we have to realize that we

are in a really important moment in the movement, not just in a moment. and for our entire generation, which recognizes the opportunity that we have cannot be wasted by going along with the status quo, as usual. to status quo has propped up points white supremacy, patriarchy and injustice and has created a situation where, in a state like tennessee, we have an increase in poverty, we have some of the lowest voter turnout. we have a situation of epidemic of gun violence and the silence of the leaders in the republican party in our state house. we know that things can be different and it can be better. at this, moment i believe the moral courage of all our generation is awakening to our power. we are told how important civics wasn't voting and participating in democracy. it is a shame that in tennessee and wants ten out we are seeing that dissipation -- silence, centered or expel because it is advocating for a vision and a voice that needs to be heard. and it is a vision that sends

everybody matters. there is a movement of people who are young and who are fearless in the face of injustice and fearless in the face of oppression because we know that we are part of a long story of history of people who have built movements that have been multiracial, for the true spirit of democracy, that it helped to create present conditions that we have to be able to sit in the seats that we have in order to elevate the issues and the forces of our community, american to stop, we're not gonna be turned around, -- >> representative, jones you on wednesday appeared at a rally with alexandria ocasio-cortez and others. the rally was called young and fed. up and what i thought interesting, when we spoke later that day, it was that you too got expelled because of position on gun rights. so he's effort got censored because of a position on transgender rights, but what you and maxwell frost and so easy i set on my show that night was that these are, as representative pierson, said these are multi generational,

multi faceted fights. tell me the things that you are fed up with that you believe you can change? >> >> thank you so much, fell she. we are friends, up that's why we have to rise. our generation is in a breakthrough moment. we're bringing moral clarity to our body of politics. we are bringing this fierce urgency and the races it's -- not asking for permission because we're facing crises. when it comes to human dignity and the treatment of marginalized communities, communities of color, trans communities, lgbtq communities, migrants, we are facing a crisis when we look at our environment, we're facing a crisis when we look at our democracy. look what happened on january six and now we see this trend towards authoritarianism that is expelling lawmakers, censoring them, silencing them, and this is not democracy. so we are facing a crisis with our democracy by forces that are fearful of what we represent, which is the future of this nation. and so we're gonna continue to push forward and resistant because we know that our vision is for beloved community, one

that affirms human dignity of all of our people. and protects our kids and not the special interest like the gun manufacturer, not like the polluters, and all the special interests like these white nationalist organizations that are fearful of a more diverse america. but we know that we must stand together and that we are united in the struggle because an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us. >> that was a strong, message representative, pierson you know, -- said nonviolence is not. peaceful we are not here to comfort, you are not going to feel comfortable with the two justice in your legislature. that is just not your, point and what was amazing to me is that you both were expelled for breaches of decorum. so his effort was censored for breaches of decorum. decorum feels like an old-fashioned word for, you all need to stay in your place, don't mess things up too much. you've got yourself elected, here but that's not gonna mean real change. >> >> exactly, and decorum is

really an opportunity for leaders like ours in the state house, and white republican majority to say, stay in your, place don't step out of, lined don't say things, that won't say anything we don't want you say, don't show up in a way that actually elevates the issues of poor, people elevates the issues we are seeking to marginalize. and with his means of decorum is to take away peoples rights in the lgbtq -- more people get incarcerated and fuel the school to prison, pipeline what is in decorum not is not doing anything about school safety and protecting, kids but making sure smith and western gets 100 million dollar contracts, was in decorum is allowing the person who -- sexy assaulted a 19-year-old intern to sit on the house floor, vote to expel us and only be forced to resign after that was made public. that was in the decorum of an institution that is built and designed on the systems of patriarchy, white supremacy and

oppression. and what we are saying, and what we are bringing is, how do we build a system of justice and elevates the issues of communities that have been marginalized? elevates the issues of communities that have for far too long have been pushed to the periphery,, preston elevate their voices in a way that everyone in the state of tennessee and around our country can be here them. it is the mothers, the, children is the young people that we serve alongside, and even those who we are no longer to serve, my classmate was killed by gun, violent we continue to fight for him and, we must continue to fight, and we will not stop. >> represented, jones yesterday and democracy now, wrote about the weaponization of. decorum we say we use this weaponization to silence dissent. to silence voices that make people uncomfortable. and that is really what they are doing. it is silencing and a voice of divergence from the dominant narrative. now, this goes back. years we have seen, this we saw this in the beginning of, books we saw this in the beginning of the 16 19 project. in florida banning of the ap black. history there is a narrative,

there is not space for nor narrative. there is not space for zoe's efforts. narrative semi leads, narrative this is what it's all. about either we can make, space which i think the two of you believe can be done, the pie can be made, maker but you are fighting against people who say there is in space. it's a zero sum game. if the joneses get to tell me what their stories, are my story gets shoved out the back. >> when i, mean that is the. issue we are facing a body of politics that chooses comfort over having a difficult conversation that uplifts all people. it was, up to them you, know our very presence is out of the quran because we represent a challenge to their system of a white supremacy, patriarchy, economic exploitation. of a fearmongering. and so this weaponization of decorum, it's really a weaponization against democracy, because it's not about silencing, us it's about silencing the people we represent. they know we can't beat our movements because they see that

we're making, progress we're trying to -- they're trying to silence our movements. and that is what we're seeing, but this attack on decorum, it's false. because if it was about decorum we would have action on january six, if it was about to quorum, we would not have these lawmakers who are using policies to harm people. it was about decorum, marjorie greene taylor would not be serving in congress. it's not about decorum, it is about silencing dissent, it is about silencing uncomfortable conversations, it's about removing any type of attention that our presidents brings when we force conversations on things they would rather, ignore things they would rather disappear from the public conversation. but as you, see it we are seeing here, today we are not going to bow down, we're not gonna be silent, we're not going to shrink ourselves because we know that this is a moment of breakthrough in our body of politics. this is a moment of opening, that we are at a moment where it's going to have ramifications if we continue to push forward together. not just those of us on the, screen but the movements of young people that are taking the, streets taking to the state, capitals in the u.s. capitol demanding conversations,

demanding this urgency around the issues we. face and demanding moral clarity to say that there is such a thing as being too late on addressing these issues that our generation is. facing >> >> it feels like a moment of breakthrough to, me thank you gentlemen for what you do for democracy, and for joining us this morning. tennessee state representative, justin jones and justin, jay pierson. montana is now the latest aunt to ban gender affirming care. we think it's a perfect time to help you understand what gender affirming care actually. means gender affirming care is essential health care, and it is. life-saving, plus a culture war. this week's -- velshi banned book club, on the agenda, lauren groff, new york times bestseller, faith and fury. 's a story of love and identity. identity. (psst psst) ahhhh... with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting, non-drowsy relief. (psst psst) flonase. all good. subway keeps upping their game with the subway series.

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2023, more than 400 bills

targeting the rights of transgender people have been introduced across this country. according to the aclu, which is tracking these, bills over a third of them specifically target access to gender affirming care, now, the rhetoric surrounding transgender individuals in general and, specifically trans health care, carries a few themes. >> we should reject this demonic assault on the innocence of our children. >> these treatments and procedures have a lifetime of negative consequences. they are irreversible. it is dangerous. it is destructive, and i will say it, it is evil. >> evil and demonic, all right, let's talk about what it. is health care for trans, youth what is known as gender affirming care, is being hotly debated, it's being severely limited, if not completely banned and at least 15 states. there is so much vague language in these bills, and in the discourse surrounding. them about what it means to be trans, and what it means to receive gender affirming care. at nbc news, poll from this month revealed that only 28% of

americans know what transgender person closely. the vast majority, nearly three quarters, say they do not. and in that same, poll they found that 48% of americans think that society has gone too far and accepting transgender people compared to 43%, who believe we need to be more accepting. but if there's so many people who are not familiar with a trans person, it's understandable that the issue of gender affirming care, might feel confusing or foreign. so we thought we would try to demystify gender affirming care, because so much of the rhetoric targets trans and non-binary youth. i'm not start with what gender affirming care means for kids. , now this information comes from the american medical association, the american psychiatric association, and the american academy of pediatrics and the trevor project, which is an organization dedicated to advocacy, health and safety for queer youth. gender dysphoria is when a person senses a difference or in conference between their biological sex, as a sided

birth, and our gender identity. or the gender that they mentally and emotionally identify with. if a child experiences gender, dysphoria the first step is psychological and emotional support, as well as what is called a social transition. that means that in a supportive, environment a child experiencing dysphoria will be able to talk to a therapist. they would have the safe space and encouragement to try cutting their hair, growing it out, maybe try wearing different clothes or try out a new name. it is a gentle way for kids experiencing dysphoria to try living as the gender with which they identify. lgbtq clinics are known to provide all of these things, counseling for, kids and for parents, even referrals to queer friendly hair salons. and when a child approaches puberty, jenner firming care might include puberty, blockers but trying tended to by young people time before some sort of secondary sex characteristics begin to develop. such as facial hair, voice changes, and sex organ development. that kind of warm out there he

is only available to minors who meet the criteria as established by the american academy of pediatrics and the association for the american medical colleges. some of that criteria, includes a finding that the youth has experienced several symptoms of gender, dysphoria listed in the dsm for at least six consecutive months. a letter of support from the youths license therapist, and a written concurrence from a mental health professional for the provider. parental consent for those under 18, remember, that's part of the recommendation, and ongoing psychotherapy. other types of physical therapies for transgender people are typically only available to older teens and adults, usually people who have stopped growing. those include hormone replacement, therapy electrolysis for unwanted facial, hair and finally, finally, gender affirming surgery. and those same criteria that i mentioned before, like counseling, persistent and consistent gender dysphoria, and for youth, parental consent

if they're under 18, all of this criteria apply there to. so it's important to point out the gender affirming, care which includes all the things i mentioned, is considered necessary, lifesaving medical care by every major medical and mental health organization in the united states which represents nearly 2 million doctors in this country, they all stand by gender affirming care as medically necessary. trans and non-binary youth face levels of depression and suicide, that are much higher than any other group. more than half of trans youth have seriously considered ending their lives and according to a study by the american medical association, that number decreases by 73% when those kids receive gender affirming care. 73% decrease in suicidal ideation is an astounding outcome. no drugs or antidepressant even comes close to having that kind of impact. so this really is lifesaving care. plain and simple. plain and simple. we >>we >

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>> ultra hard-line conservative lawmakers are continuing to push for abortion bans, despite all the evidence that these laws are not popular with the public, giving rise to any resistance from inside their own party. abortion ban bills and deeply conservative nebraska and south carolina each fell short in very close votes this week. and republican opposition was a big reason why. and south carolina, which was a powerful display of solidarity, all five of the states women senators, three of whom are republican, teaming up in a dramatic multi day filibuster to defeat the near total abortion ban. it is the third time the abortion ban has failed in south carolina since roe was overturned. in one powerful rebuke after another, the woman admonished their male colleagues for their aggressive stance with respect to reproductive rights. one of those filibustering lawmakers included my next guest, republican state senator sandy senn. >> abortion laws have always

been each and every one of them about control. it's always about control, plain and simple. and in the senate, the males all have control. we, the woman, have not asked for, as a senator from orangeburg pointed out yesterday, nor do we want your protection, we don't need it. we don't need it. there is not a single thing that i can do when women such as me are insulted, except to make sure that you get into your fold, and you need to blame this earful on following that leader blandly off the clear for the third time on abortion. and i'm sure you get an earful, if you are being honest, from your wives, from your children, from your grandchildren. you cannot tell me that you are not. i know you are. >> very publican south carolina state senator sandy senn, who you just saw there, joins me now. senator, thanks for being with us this morning. >> thank you for having me,

sir. >> i want to be clear, you are a republican, you are conservative, you have conservative stances on a lot of things. i don't know what your views on abortion are. but you and your fellow senators there, a breakthrough moment there, saying that representation matters, as woman, regardless of your political party, you want to make a statement that we don't need your control. and so, when you transfer this conversation into a conversation of control, that is actually where most american people are. it's not a matter of whether people like abortion or not, it's a matter of whether people or not think should they make their own choices. >> that's exactly right. and in south carolina, there are 46 senators, but only five of us are female. and overall, we only have a 14% representation, even in the house of representatives. so, we are definitely in the minority. and we can band together to be heard across party lines. and we also had three male senators that without them, we would not have been able to make it. so, i don't believe in draconian bills on either side

of the aisle. i am a centrist. i thought that i was conservative. it turns out i'm very, very fiscally conservative. but on a lot of these social issues, i think that they are just there for shock and all. and, of course, i'm gonna stand up for women, i don't want anyone to have an abortion, but nor am i going to tell her what she can and cannot do with her life and her body. >> you are an independent mind, you are sort of a libertarian in the idea that you don't believe that the government or the man who run government should have that role, or that voice in woman's life. that is for women to discuss with either their families or whether doctors. >> exactly. in my state, these folks are wanting -- there is a bill, one of them filed, 19 people signed on it, that said it was murder -- they wanted a woman punishable as murder if they had an abortion. and 19 lawmakers signed on to that. so, again, that's an example of extremism. and it's just not gonna hold. and it's never gonna stop a

woman from having an abortion when she once, so that's one of the points i'm trying to make. but our growing frustration is that our leadership brought this to the floor three times in under six months, costing the state tons of money, costing us to waste so much time. and when i asked them whether abortion was the number one issue facing our state, he refused to answer me. and then, he turned around and told reporters that he would be coming after me in 2024. so, i guess five senators, females are too many for him. >> let's talk a little bit about, you said something to your male colleagues, that you probably get an earful from your wives, your kids. and it's probably true, because if you look at the numbers of people who do not want abortion criminalized in this way, that makes sense. what about you, who are you getting an earful from? are you getting an earful from republicans, from the man in the chamber? and tell me a little bit more about this, five women, if

they're five too many, giving someone will launch a movement against you, bye woman? >> yes, i think they definitely will, because we are standing in between, you know, total abortion in our state. and they realize that. so, there are people in the ups states in particular that will be throwing a lot of money to run against us. and as i said, my leader has already said so. but this is the third time he's gone into this argument, and all three times he's been embarrassed. so, this year, he really got embarrassed in this third time. and maybe he's gonna stop it. he's not gonna get it passed until 2024, and that is if he gets some of us unelected. and that is if we don't get more woman elected to replace them in the chamber. >> that's where i was going next because when i was talking to the to justin's from tennessee, one of the things they said, as a result of their expulsion, a lot of people are phoning and say, how do i get involved in politics, not just coming to rallies and things like that, but how do i run? how do i get involved? in these moments, these

breakthrough moments, tend to be watersheds for those kinds of things. so, what happens next for you and some of these women who say, this will only work in the future if women are elected to office. and that means women running for office. >> exactly. and it's really easier for women to win. i mean, unfortunately, you do have to have money to run, but i can help teach them how to raise money. there are a lot of people that want to give the money. and as long as they basically stand up for what's right, and, again, we don't all walk in lockstep. i mean, some of my democratic sister, sisters, they would like, you know, for abortion to go a little bit further on 12 weeks. that is just, to me, the best spot that i could land to be in the center. it's one of those things that we're not gonna ever agree that if more women run, better things are gonna happen in our state. you may not know two weeks after the very, one of the abortion laws was struck, the

first six-week abortion law was struck by the supreme court, our all male pretty much legislature took out the one female supreme court justice. she had to retire. there were two females running who are better qualified in the mail. and what they do? they put a mail from the upstate which is more conservative. i'm from charleston. it's more conservative in our area, all because of abortion, making us the only state in the nation with no female judge, all because of abortion. >> well, people like you and your colleagues and your sisters in the legislature are going to change that. we appreciate your time and your commitment to democracy. thank you for joining us this morning. republican state senator sandy senn of south carolina, thanks for joining us. >> thanks. >> alongside key witnesses to donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election, finally testifying before the grand jury. former vice president mike pence has unique insight into the days leading up to january 6th, when he became the target of the angry mob. i'll talk to olivia troye, former senior adviser to pence, coming up on velshi.

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at the velshi book club lined up this morning, with award winning author lauren groff, and her new york times bestseller, fates and theories. spending two decades, this book is told by way of three narrators. we hear from lotto, the fate, his wife matilda, the fury, and lauren groff herself as omniscient narrator. it's the story of marriage and

ultimately once identity within the confines of any serious relationship. fates and furious have been critically acclaimed and of course band. in her home state of florida, we're gonna get into all that and more today when the ali velshi then book clock begins in just a second. but up next, desantis versus disney. how the florida governor's decision to pick up a fight with disney -- and his calculations. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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>> florida governor ron desantis is at war with disney, and he may have miscalculated the strength of the mouse. the wall doesn't accompany has sued desantis alleging, quote, orchestrating every step, a campaign to punish disney that now threatens the company's business. the fight was racking up for more than a year now. it started with ron desantis's so-called don't say gay bill. last year, disney publicly opposed that legislation that

bans the discussion of gender identity and sexual orientation and classrooms up to the third grade. desantis did not appreciate disney's interference in the matter, so he pushed to strip wall disney world self governing privileges. he handpicked and you board of supervisors to oversee the special tax district, which includes the theme park and there was sort property, and some areas around it. so, now, disney is suing desantis in federal court, accusing him and other officials of a, quote, targeted campaign of government with palliation. desantis has brushed off the lawsuit saying, quote, i don't think the suit has merit. i think it's political, in quote, which is which, given that his entire attack on this knee was entirely political. but either way you shake it, it doesn't seem like the smartest move to pick a fight with disney, which is one of the biggest moneymakers in florida. it could cost desantis financially and politically. nbc news polling shows desantis is already trailing former president donald trump by a whopping 15 points and a theoretical 2024 republican primary. desantis has not yet made it

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over t-mobile, at&t and verizon. talk to our switch squad at your local xfinity store today. we moved out of the city so our little sophie could appreciate nature. but then he got us t-mobile home internet. i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? ♪ ♪ ♪ what, we have a ton of mulch. >> joining me now is rina shah, for public and strategist, principal and found her at relax strategies, and advisor for the new democracy

initiative. and david jolly, msnbc political analyst, and republican congressman from florida. welcome to both of you. good to see you both. >> good to see you, ali. >> dave it was given me a bit of a primer on this last night, and david, it's such important to recognize. for our viewers or sitting there saying, well, disney shouldn't have had any special status at all and florida. this goes back to 1963 when disney was granted the sort of self government status. it came with some tax advantages. your point, as a florida politician, is that that has turned out to be a very good deal for the taxpayers and residents of florida. >> yes, it certainly has. it's the number one international driver. it employs nearly 100,000 people. and, listen, even the special status that disney is given creates market efficiencies, right? do we really want state inspectors having to go in every week or every month, and perform certain duties, when disney can do that internally, with the same credentials, the same licenses that the state or county, or what have. and you saw that reflex, ali,

when desantis first said we're gonna ripple away your special tax status and give it to the counties. the two counties that, no, governor, please, please don't do this. disney now has 27,000 acres, and it's an international grand that family is going to be a part of. ron desantis started a war now that he likely can't win. it could truly hobbled his own presidential ambitions. >> rina, what is your sense of it? because there are a lot of things that ron desantis does that i would not agree with, but i can say, i get what he he's going with us. he's leaning into this anti woke agenda, and i get why he's doing this. but even this one felt like, come on, this feels like a miscalculation. >> well, i think with this really revealed is that ron desantis knows how to, but he doesn't know how to finish that fight. and that is the real course of the matter here is that it republicans getting very excited, and these are the financier type that we're saying run is our guy. but what we are slowly seeing now is that he is revealing himself. we've heard whispers about him

and washington journal his short time as a congressman that he's a largely insecure person, who doesn't seem to have any real legislative priority. he's had that naked ambition, obviously for the presidency, for which he hasn't even announced the primary. so, what i see here is the beginning of the end for ron desantis, and i'm just not sure where this is going to take us. except for leaving him in a spot where he's really not the person who can take donald trump, has been talked about widely. and in essence, leading a lot of sure republicans -- i'm sorry, trumpers who are pretty sure that ron is our guy as a republican, it's leading them to wonder, is this our guy anymore? and if anyone can beat trump like, because that's a real key in this primary. >> david, the point you made was that really the only person to take down donald trump is probably donald trump. >> yes, my theory is only donald trump can wound donald trump, and we have yet to find out what that looks like. it's not an indictment. it's not an impeachment.

it's not the scandals. it's not credible allegations of rape. so, ron desantis is building a traditional infrastructure for a massive presidential run. i think there are three candidates out there, biden, trump, and desantis. one of the three will be the next president. but as rina says about the trump like, i think it's interesting to evaluate why desantis is falling. it's not because he's not ready for primetime. he had a mediocre world stage trip. he fumbles questions. he lives and protective bottle. but he's also to the right of donald trump, and that scares donors. donald trump would not sign a six-week abortion ban. he doesn't like to talk about the issue. he would not declare a war on public schools. he would not have to fight with disney on lgbt issues. trump would prefer not to talk about that. the vessel for a lot of the special interests, desantis is a leader of those special interest groups within two republican party, the culture war politics, and it's really spooking the donor class. >> but rina, if, for the post trump crowd, who still think of themselves as republicans or conservatives, if you take what

david just said, that there is joe biden, donald trump, and ron desantis, because there is nobody polling close to any of them, what is the option? what is the other road, for a post trump republicans and conservatives, what is the road? >> that is a really tough question because it would lead us to believe that there was a third-party sort of viability here, and having done that, and having lived that tail over seven years, i can tell you, we're just not ready. our system is not ready for that. and it brings me great pain and sadness to say so. because i millennial. i talked to gen z all the time. we are in lockstep that things need to change. you know, we need serious system reforms. and their young considers i talked to across the country, whether they are in mid-atlantic, western, southern, they all want the same thing. you see, asa hutchinson looking at the presidency. they see tim scott looking at the presidency. and they're not turned on by other of that either. so, who can come out and really find that link to topple trump? and i think it's going to be a known unknown. i want to bring a parallel that

i don't think it's talked about at all. look at how nancy pelosi very gracefully passed that baton of her speakership to hakeem jeffries, and look at how beloved hakeem jeffries's. he was a known unknown, the strength that he's was able to project in just a few months, that's the kind of person that republicans need. where is that person? it's clearly not nikki haley. it's not even -- who i think is out there talking sensibly, most days of the week. so, i think we should remain with our seatbelt on because we will be surprised, we will be surprised. i have no doubt about that. >> david, this week i've had some remarkable conversations. i spoke to some early. i spoke to zoe's effort. this morning i spoke to justin j. pearson and justin jones, and i spoke with maxwell frost. so, there's this new generation of democrats coming up. i just had a great conversation with state senator sandy senn of south carolina, who is a conservative. and she admits she's a conservative. she does not have -- she does not think women should have abortions, but she has

abandoned with five other woman in the south carolina senate to tell the guys there, get your hands off our bodies. and she said, more women need to run. and if women don't know how to raise money, she said on this show, i will show them how to raise money to run. she's putting her humanity and democracy before her partisanship. that gave me a lot of hope. >> yes, ali, we saw coalition emerge in 18 in response to trump and trumpism. and that was a coalition that said democracy is more important than ideology. it's stuck together in 20 with joe biden. it's stuck together in 22 to stop the red wave. it is a coalition currently led by democrats. but i'm not sure democrats are totally moralizing and galvanizing that coalition, but it goes to this question, who's the next republican? who's the next conservative in the exchange we were just having? that might take a while, because i think right now, for most americans in their minds, democracy is more important than ideology. so, even if conservatives you here, maybe they sound more moderate, but what they're saying is we want more inclusive government. so, for the younger generation,

the voices that are coming, up maxwell frost, and others, the tennessee three, those voices, whether progressive, conservatives, they're actually saying, all deserve a seat at the -- table >> that is what democracy is about. and on thursday, i had an opportunity, i did not see you there. i had to do tv, so i came in and went out. but there was a renewed democracy initiative, and i had the first actual annual gathering in new york. and that was what it was about, right? it was people from across the political spectrum who believe in democracy, right? they're saying, once we have democracy in place, we could fight about all the policies you want. but first, we are starting from a place of democracy. and i was taken by the fact that in that room, in midtown manhattan, where people from across the political spectrum, would otherwise would not be sitting which either. >> i mean, those scores give you goose pond, at least, because we understand what it's like. i mean, my family story of being in uganda, and being ousted by the dictator, i understand what that creates, that creates intergenerational trauma. and my family is living that,

because when you lose everything due to somebody saying get out of here, due to the color of your skin, it changes everything about what you're gonna do, whether it's economically or otherwise. i think what we are really trying to say in this area is that democracy is on the ballot year-round. but what is the principal? we can just say that, and expect others to accept it, right? it's the principles that keep us very alive and well here in the united states. so, i think there is much to celebrate despite seemed erosion of it over the trump years. i think we should be happy that it's still very much intact, and it's working here. but i will say, as i'm putting my political hat on, i do worry about 2024, because even the moderate republicans, they will just, this is a message we've taken on on the road. but they still say to me, it is the economy. it's the economy. biden's questioned our economy. and i can live with somebody that can fix it, despite all the other that stuff they bring with them. and that, to me, says they be willing to vote against biden,

and that's dangerous. so, we have a lot of work cut out for us, but it's a principle we need to talk about, and how they make our lives better to live under a representative democracy like ours. >> all right, you know me, i'm always happy for a big long conversation on democracy, on economy, and who's making it better, who's making it worse. perhaps, will schedule that one. thanks to both of you, david jolly and rina shah, we appreciate your time this morning. coming up ahead, i'm gonna talk about the future of american democracy, again, with two lawmakers who are in the middle of the fight at the state level. the oklahoma state representative ajay pittman and the california state assembly member alex lee. plus, former vice president pence has finally appeared before a grand jury in the january 6th investigation. i'm gonna talk to someone who knows pence better than most, his former senior adviser olivia troye. another hour of velshi begins right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> and good morning to you this saturday, april 29th. i am ali velshi. back in 2021, most of the coha