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from msnbc's headquarters here in new york. alex witt reports. we begin with breaking news in texas. a man hunt intensifying at this hour for a gunman suspected of carrying out a deadly mass shooting against his neighbors. five people, including an eight-year-old were killed overnight in a home in cleveland. that is a city just north of houston. according to priscilla thompson, who is on the scene for us there. priscilla, welcome, what are you learning at this tragic hour? >> yeah,, alex police are now naming this murder in this case. identifying him as 38-year-old, francisco or up hazza. police say he is a mexican national and is being charged with five counts of murder and police say he is two miles from here and have established a perimeter and are using dogs

and officers on horseback and drones that are working to track him in order to locate him. the sheriff is saying that he hopes to have the suspect in custody within the next couple of oropeza hours, and this information comes as we learn more about how this unfolded overnight, what you see behind, me this is the fence that houses off the suspected shooter's home. officials say that the neighbor went over to the fence to ask him if he could stop shooting his ar-15 in the current yard because they were trying to keep a baby, or put a baby to sleep and after that the suspected shooter walked over to the home, walked in and began firing at everyone -- including an eight year old. the sheriff also described a scene where there were mothers laying on top of their children, trying to protect. them he says there were three juveniles who are covered in blood who were taken to

hospital. we all know that those two vials were not injured, but a traumatic scene. i want to play a little bit more of how the sheriff described what happened here. >> everybody that was shot was shot from the neck up. almost execution style. my understanding is that the victims came over to the fence, saying hey could you might not shooting in the yard we have a baby that's going to sleep. he had been drinking but he said i'll do what i want to and my front yard. >> the sheriff has also said that the shooter was intoxicated at the time of the shooting. and i asked him about the suspected murderers ability to execute those kinds of shots, given that he was intoxicated. the sheriff said this is something that they're looking into. no word on his background or potential criminal history. but still a lot of questions on the ground here. alex? >> i gotta tell, you this is so

horrific. my only reaction is oh my god. what a story. okay, priscilla thompson, thank you so much for that. please keep us on the latest on this man hunt for this man. we have more breaking news to share everyone. this is due to the weather, with severe weather and flooding across the u.s. this weekend, the steady rise of the mississippi river caused by a giant snow pack melt in minnesota, causing major flooding throughout the midwest, in fact, right now millions people in the southeast are also at risk. those from severe storms that could produce damaging hail, high winds and possible tornadoes. it is a mess out there, that's where we find nbc, george soliz, whose unpleasant, valley, iowa with the very latest on this. okay, you're in a heck of a lot of water there, talk about the flooding and how extensive is it? >> yeah,, alex it's just the tip of the iceberg here. this is a slow-moving disaster for the quad cities. we are about to show you the only way people can get in and out of certain neighborhoods. that is by boat. of, course we're staying pretty safe on the outskirts of some

of this water. it may not look like it from where i'm standing, but there's actually a current here. that's why it's not safe for people to really go deep down into what used to be their neighborhood. we know that there are people right now trying to get to their homes, trying to salvage what they can. and my, knew a lot of people say, yes, the mighty mississippi floods this time of year, it's not uncommon, but no matter how prepare they are, this was unprecedented for a lot of people. they said they did not expect the water to rise up as fast as it did. a little earlier, i'll tell you a quick story about the healy's, they were trying to salvage stuff in their, home they were going in and out next to the kindness of a man who was able to get in and out of the neighborhood -- her husband came back saying, look there's nothing you can really do for the stuff that's already under the water. she was determined, she, said i have to go in. there i have to see what's left of my home. they've been trying to stay there, they're probably gonna have to spend a night in a hotel. so this is just the heightened emotion that is part of a disaster like this.

and she's in the right, now trying to save what she can. take a listen to what she told me a little earlier. >> the water is so high. villa's lot of possessions. the water so high right now. if you pick anything up -- it came up too quick. it was up to my boots in the basement on monday. i document every, day the water came up -- so i don't get fired. >> the other side of this right, now, alex's people are very frustrated they have no utilities. the heat, for about 140 customers, has been turned off. according to the local utility and i hate to say it, but we're not even through the worst of. this the river is still expected to crest 16, 17, 20 feet in some areas. so, again we say slow-moving disaster, we mean it because we're not even through the worst of this. yet fortunately, -- no rain is expected in the forecast. there's a little bit of a silver lining in all of this, but for a lot of these people that work is just beginning because once this does receive,

the next part of it is clean up. >> oh my goodness, quickly, what is the sign that is nearly completely submerged? can you look behind? you what is that sign say? what it is attempting to relay? it just says home? >> it says home. ironically enough, all the homes that are down in the neighborhood are all under water. but it says home and a few hours that sign will probably be virtually underwater. >> okay, george soliz, thanks for taking an eye on that. more developing, news president biden made his pitch for reelection to top democratic donors today,. top biden advisers and campaign co-chairs are briefing the donors on the campaign's 2024 strategy. earlier, talks said enthusiasm is high for the reelection, effort. >> people are on fire for the biden harris ticket. unlike anything i have seen in south carolina before. >> we're gonna report on this from the white house in just

moments for you. meanwhile, supreme court justice, samuel alito says he is a pretty good idea who leaked the draft of the high court's opinion overturning roe v. wade. in an interview with the wall street journal, a leader said that he did not have the level of proof needed to name somebody, but dismissed the idea that the draft was leaked by one of the courts five other conservative justices. the bill that allows rhonda sends to remain florida's governor, if he chooses to run for president during that campaign in 2024, that now awaits his signature. the measure passing along party lines in both the state house and senate. earlier today, a democratic florida state senator told msnbc he may have the okay from republicans, if not their support. >> the republicans are not with desantis. and so i think if you interview people here, republicans of tallahassee say we're looking forward to desantis filing to run for president to get out of here and get out of the way. not because they're in support. >> at 1 pm we're gonna head to

florida for a new reaction to desantis's battle with disney. right, now let's head to the white house and nbc,'s allie raffa. ali, welcome, what are we hearing from that event last night? the signal the presidents campaign kickoff. >> the president and his team know that this is going to be a very long and expensive road to 2024. but however, they are not calling last night's event fund-raiser. they are billing this as a strategy session that they had with top donors that they are going to heavily rely on for the next 18 months. we know that there were over 100 people in this crowd that took this -- this event took place at this upscale hotel in d.c.. there were several democratic lawmakers there, like california governor, gavin newsom, new jersey governor, phil murphy, we know that the first lady, the vice president, the second gentleman, or all in attendance. the president spoke for five, minutes he touted what he was able to achieve during the first half of his first term in

office. and he also thanked people for his support. he also took a not so veiled swipes at former president, trump, without naming him specifically. he said, quote, maga republicans are trying to take us backwards, but together we are not going to let them do it. instead, our agenda is going to continue to bring us forward and build on the progress we made, and we made. and we must finish this job. alex, we're already starting to feel the messaging in the contours around this new 2024 campaign take shape. we know that campaign co-chair, jim clyburn, congressman jim clyburn, who the president often credits is helping him make a comeback in the 2020 race, he was speaking with our colleague -- defended the president against gop attacks about his age. he also expressed his confidence in vice president, kamala harris, going forward into the 2024 campaign cycle. take a listen to that interview here. >> nobody has any guarantee on

how long they're gonna live. it's very unfortunate that for her to say something like that, i'm older than joe biden, i feel fine. i still don't know if i'll make it to sundown. this is the kind of foolishness that you have to keep out of politics. vice president, harris, demonstrated over the years that she is up to the job. i'm very impressed with her thankful and -- thankful of the president has her on the ticket and -- displays her so prominently in his reelect. >> alex, we also know that at some point today the biden team will be briefing donors on the 2024 campaign strategy. all of this before we expect the president to deliver remarks today at the white house correspondents dinner. >> something to look forward, to thank you. the lead investigator for the january six committee joins me next. i'll be talking with him about mike pence's testimony before

the grand jury. and what key questions he wants to ask. plus, how donald trump may be in deeper legal trouble after hugging someone. back in 60 seconds. back in 60 seconds. will you make something better? create something new? our dell technologies advisors can provide you with the tools and expertise you need to bring out the innovator in you. (vo) if you've had thyroid eye disease for years and the pain in your eyes burns like a red-hot chili pepper, or...your inflamed eyes are so watery they need windshield wipers, it's not too late for another treatment option for thyroid eye disease, also known as t-e-d. to learn more, visit treatted.com that's treatt-e-d.com. (vo) verizon small business days are back. april 27th through may 3rd. get a free tech check and special offers.

like a free 5g phone. get started today with verizon business. it's your business. it's your verizon. office, he was on the telephone with, or later found out to be, was the vice president. the conversation was pretty

heated. it was a different tone than i heard him take with the vice president before. >> so as i was dropping off the note, my memory, i remember hearing the word, when. either he called him a win, i don't remember, he said you are a wimp, you'll be a wimp. -- >> pence reportedly testified for some six or seven hours. joining me now -- former lead investigator for the house of january 6th elect committee and i welcome guest here. tim, let's get into this. how critical are the details of this 16 phone call to the doj investigation? that ivanka trump was referencing. >> pretty critical. we know what happened. we had people who were there, at least perceiving the phone call on the outside. as ivanka testified and observers, it was heated, it was angry, but we don't have a firsthand account.

that's why mike pence is so important. he circled him on the select committee and we know a lot about his experience of his positions and what he can -- to the president. it's entirely different to hear from others and to hear from him. that's why this is such a significant development. it's firsthand direct evidence as opposed to secondhand, more circumstantial evidence. >> given the key questions that would've -- what would you ask mike pence during that grand jury session? -- trump's intent to interfere with the proceedings. if he really someone that you have to focus on to get that information? >> yes, exactly. look, we had a very detailed outline prepared to interview the vice president. i was very anxious for that opportunity, and unfortunately, did not get it. i would've started with a day or january six. in a very real sense, he's a victim. he was, personally, threatened. they clips that you've shown, hang right hands, the pressure here was launched at him. the presidents last desperate

move to try to prevent the certification for the election. i don't want to spend a lot time talking about his day, the phone call that you referenced, very detailed back and forth, what you would call, what did the president say, what did you say, what was his tone of voice, was her emotion and his, how did you feel when you left the call? then i want to walk him through the entire afternoon. him, in the vehicle, evacuating, rioters came in 40 feet as a vice president, which is pretty scary. all of this, alex, as your question suggests, varies upon the presidents intend, that jackson's had to evaluate whether there's evidence of the president specifically intended to obstruct, interfere, with or impede the joint session. his communications with mike pence, his state of mind, very directly, candy illustrated with the vice president -- says. >> what's the weight's cap, tim, that pence -- be at content or timeline? >> both. both.

again, there are a lot of conversations here which no one else was present. there was a meeting in the oval office on january 5th, just two of them. there was that phone call on january 6th. that's probably the biggest factual gaffe. again, we have people saying what they believe those calls entail, but the direct account of it, and the timeline is important. what we heard is that the vice president was consistent. he was resolute from the very beginning, that he never wavered on this -- legal authority, during the joint session. and he conveyed that repeatedly to president trump in the days before january six. that really informs the intent of the presidents -- at the rally for senator purview in georgia, several days before he, despite the fact that he -- i don't have the authority that i suggest you have. he continued to publicly suggest that the vice president did have such authority, that's what ratchets up the pressure

on the vice president and informs intent of the president to disrupt or influence that session. >> what about the role that may have been played for members of congress? is it possible that pence could say things to implicate other gop members? and i guess the question is, would he? >> yeah, so, his line throughout these events, alex, has been, his job was to preside over the joint session, which actually -- from the floor, by members of congress. what he said, in advance, of january six, was i can't myself, unilaterally, -- certain electors and except others, but i can allow for a preside over, debate on the floor, or members can bring forth evidence that would suggest fraud and give rise to not accept a -- certified or otherwise. his view, all along was, look, if you have evidence members of congress, bring it forth. this is a, time and i will preside over that session. of course, there was no evidence, there wasn't then,

there hasn't been since. there was no basis to object to a -- pence was initially pointing to a member of congress saying, hey, it's your opportunity now to bring forth evidence. i can save you, the evidence has to come forth from the floor. >> so that something that you might have been interested in hearing about. do we know if that's part of the special counsel's investigation? >> the whole thing, anyone who knew that there were steps being taken to disrupt that joint session is potentially within the range of scrutiny for special counsel. i don't think members of congress candidly are. they have a speech and debate protection religiously -- they can make projections as they did to particular states, even if they don't really have evidence to support that. i don't expect that jack smith 's focus on, his criminal targets, members of congress. i do think the president and other advisers, lawyers, staff, others around him, who knew

there was no such evidence but we're trying to take steps nonetheless to prevent certification are likely his targets. let me >> ask you one last question, this is about the optics of what i want to present you on thursday, with donald trump during pinned -- at the same time, embracing a january 6th defendant who called for pence's execution and was convicted of a 16 crime. does what we're showing our viewers right here, does that get seen as pure politics or can that hurt the ex president was potential future jury? >> absolutely, it can hurt him. again [interpreter] . if you're looking inside of someone's had, what they do at the time, and how they react after matters. if the president is embracing a convicted january six criminal, who scales scaffolding and proudly breached the capitol in calling her a hero and bracing her insane, you just hang in there, that's evidence of his

intent, that's evidence that he supports their actions and everyone else. that's consistent with the testimony we develop from cassidy hunks in certain, among others. she said there was a moment on january six, were -- comes rushing down to mark meadows office after the violence has started. encouraging meadows to encourage the president to issue a statement to call off the rioters. atement to calwhat medicines, ao mitch hutchinson's, you know he doesn't want to do anything, pat. right? we have evidence against circumstantial, secondhand, of his tolerance of or frankly, pleasure with the riot. now we're seeing it with his own conduct, as recently as this week. embracing people that were there at the capitol, acting violently. >> timothy hey feet, always illuminating speaking with you. thank you so much, we'll see you again. >> a safety sandown in the armory after something deadly happened more than once, that story coming up.

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land, air and sea evacuations of american civilians are underway in sudan. nearly 2000 evacuees made the treacherous escape to saudi arabia today, -- to thousands of others who fled so far. -- it's covering this for us from london. ali, how many americans are still in sudan and how long will it take to get everyone out? >> hey, alex, there were an

estimated 16,000 americans believed to be in sudan before this latest wave of evacuations. most of them are due nationals, according to the state department. only a fraction of them express the desire to leave. what we do know now is that land, sea and air evacuations of hundreds of american civilians from sedan is underway, according to the state department. it is this initial stage were traveling, in a convoy of hard bosses head into the red sea before being taken out of the war torn country. the u.s. is offering a logistical support for some of these evacuations, but they still have to navigate a lengthy and treacherous journey. different countries have taken dramatically different approaches to getting the citizens out of sudan, and the u.s. has come under scrutiny for -- 17 embassy staff in an elite seal commanders -- were warning thousands of u.s. citizens there will be no similar evacuations for them. in recent days, the scale of the fighting has declined with

both sides respecting, a fragile cease-fire, allowing a small window of opportunity for evacuations. some americans have found their own way out, alex, like denise and chris bauer. on the way home to south carolina after the school in these taught at in sudan brought them out. take a listen to some of the details they managed to escape the country. >> he was crouching down a little bit and trying to stay quiet. you can hear all the shouting and the yelling outside, and they're banging on the bus. it was scary, it was dark. we didn't know where we were going. it was -- >> meanwhile, the u.s. civilian evacuation plan is ongoing. we're getting the -- right now, that many of the american evacuees have arrived in port sudan. from there, they'll be taken by boats and air to safety to gather, and then from there to the united states. >> certainly a relief for those who made it out so far, thank you ali rosy in london. coming up next, a comment made

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benefits. payroll. compliance. trinet. people matter. leadership now ordering in aviation stand down after two deadly helicopter crashes. the order by the army chief of staff grounds all army aviators, except those on critical missions, until they do training. 12 soldiers have been killed

and helicopter crashes since march, the most recent on thursday, which killed three soldiers -- in alaska. both incidents involved training exercises. joining right now is massachusetts congressman, says bolton and democratic member of the house armed services, transportation and infrastructure committees and the select committee on china. he also served four tours in iraq as part of the u.s. marine corps. i welcome you, my friend. it makes you the perfect person to ask this question, how important, in your mind, is this aviation stand down and how should the army approach is risk management process moving forward. >> look, this is a big deal, and the army chief of staff, jerry mcconville, is an apache helicopter pilot himself. he understands what this means. taking a week off of training is not something that we're used to, but he's making the right call, because it's way out of the north. it's important to say though, the training is inherently

risky. we do it so it's more realistic and it's ultimately -- dangerous missions we ask women and women to undertake, a little more safe, because they're better prepared for the dangerous missions. but clearly, we're not striking the balance here in helicopter training, and that's where the chief of staff is ordering a stand down. >> for that statement on that, let's -- select committee on china experience, because u.s. western officials telling nbc news that a breakdown in communication in u.s. and china is raising the risk of an unintended crisis or conflict between the two superpowers. on a scale, sir, of 1 to 10, ten is bad, one is good. razor lay ship right now between the u.s. and china, why are we at this point? >> we're about a seven. we're on the bad side of that scale, because we're not even talking right now. and, let's be clear, this is not our fault. united states has repeatedly

reach out to chinese officials over dangerous incidents, like the balloon incident, and asked to have a dialogue, asked to have an emergency phone line. that red phone that we had with russia, so that in the event of some uncertainty, a missile launch, we're not quite sure what's going on. you can pick up that phone and talk to russia before we launch nuclear mitchell's or something catastrophic. so, it's important to have communication. we're asking for communication. it's important that we have peace in the pacific. we haven't changed our position on that. we want peace in the pacific. taiwan wants peace in the pacific. but xi jinping and the chinese communist party have said that they want to start a war over taiwan. they want to invade taiwan the same way that vladimir putin, that were criminal, has started this criminal war over ukraine and europe. >> which brings me to this, because, she jinping told ukrainian president zelenskyy that he wants to send a peace envoy to ukraine and other

nations to act as a mediator. since that offer, russia stepped up a deadly wave of air strikes on cities across ukraine. do these latest russian attacks, does it damage the prospect of any talks happening? >> of course it does, and let's be clear, she jinping, the leader of the -- the autocratic leader of china is aligning himself with this war criminal, vladimir putin. that's the alliance that they have. there is one very simple way for this horrible, horrible war in ukraine to ends. that's for russia to go home. they are the ones who invaded, they're the ones who started this completely illegal unprovoked war. if china really wants this word to and, they just need to tell vladimir putin, pull back your troops. that's how simple it could be. i don't think china is very serious about this peace mission. >> let's focus stateside here, because house republicans merely pass a debt limit bill, which includes spending cuts -- president biden's domestic agenda.

the democratic-controlled senate has made it pretty clear it's not going to pass it. but will the sleet is a -- negotiating with republicans to some degree? >> well, look, first of all, this is a completely ridiculous bill. it's cuts head start programs for 300,000 kids, including tens of thousands of kids in some of the most conservative house districts in the country. it cuts nutrition benefits for 1 million seniors. you'll see tsa wait times at the airports go up 300%. if you're used to a 20-minute security line, plan on waiting an hour just to get through security. republicans are never actually going to do this. this is a ransom, not an actual ville, and you're right, it's never going to see the light of day in the senate. the question is, should there be a real negotiation between people like kevin mccarthy, republican speaker of the house, and president biden? president biden has made it very clear, we don't negotiate

over the -- and credit of the united states. i mean, to understand what this is, this is like getting your credit card bill after you spend all your money on your credit card, and just refusing to pay it. right? you don't get your credit card bill and just refused to pay it and then calls a credit card company and say, hey, let's negotiate this. that's not the way it works. the credit card company is not going to renew your credit card. this is really serious stuff. president biden is doing the right thing by saying, we're not going to negotiate over this. when democrats controlled the house, we raise the debt limit for times for president trump. we did the right thing for the country. that's all we're asking of house republicans. >> got it. i know you thrown your support behind president biden's reelection bid, but just as he made it official this week, take a listen to what republican presidential candidate and sticky haley had to say about his candidacy. >> he's announced his, you know, that he's running again in 2024. ati think that we can all be vey

clear and say, with a matter of fact, that if you vote for joe biden, you really are counting on a president harris, because the idea that he'd make it until 86 years old is not something that i think is likely. >> just gotta ask your response to that one. >> i mean, come on, nikki haley, you're better than that. i mean, this is pretty pathetic, she's really trying for something. nikki haley may have one of the only presidential campaigns in modern history that is going worse than mine. she's really struggling here. i mean, come on. be nice of the president. >> all right. congressman south hamilton, you had a campaign, you never know, i'm just saying. thank you very much, my friend. good to see you. coming up next, we're going to talk about what happened inside a new york city courtroom this week, and why these headlines you're about to see got written in the first place. we'll talk to a legal analyst that will talked -- and the civil rape trial against donald trump. against donald trump

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so let's get into this. tell me what struck you most about the day, lisa. what were your biggest takeaways? >> my biggest takeaways were twofold, alex. one is how retro daca pena's defense appears to be, and the second is what quite dignity e. jean carroll has, even in some of the -- we'll start with tacopina if we can. the defense strategy here is e. jean carroll's making this up. she wants money, she wants fame, and she hated trump for political reasons echoed by her two friends that she told, at the time. -- three of them were in a conspiracy to destroy trump. but, even if you were to believe her story, and that she is not motivated by those things, he's asking the jury to ask themselves, did she behave both in the moment and afterwards the way we think real rape victims behave? that relies on a bunch of

tropes, real vic victims scream, they call the police, real rape victims go to the doctor, they seek therapy, and real vape victims come forward, none of which e. jean carroll did. and all of which she -- later in the trial will hear from an expert in trauma, in psychology, who will say, actually, the way she behaved was very evocative of the way many sexual assault victims behave. for right now, joe tacopina is trying to find at least one juror, and he only needs one who buys into this 1970s era, misogynists view of the way sexual assault victims are supposed to act. >> just listening to you describe this, something doesn't add up at all if there. trying to claim this as politically motivated, and she told her two friends back in the 19 90s about wanting to take down donald trump, the politics wasn't anywhere near his life at that point. that doesn't seem to hold a lot of water, are just saying that observationally. let me get to this question. trump's lead lawyer question

carl, which created the headlines, which includes this from the daily beast. trump's lawyer shameful cross examination of e. jean carroll. slight magazine said, trump's lawyer did him no favors on thursday. newsweek, trump's attorney just blew carols rape case. do you agree with these takes. do you call his offense, and the way he's going about his questioning's retro, but do you agree with these headlines? >> look, alex, we are not the jury, right? the new york -- journalist cuddling the story is not the jury pool. if we were, i might agree with those assessments, but instead, and the jury box, we have nine people whose life experiences considerably diverge from those of us who are covering the case and might have considerably more progressive views. both are so respect to our understanding of donald trump, and also, with respect to our life experiences. the jury was carefully constructed so that folks who

had strong opinions about sexual assault in either direction, people who thought they had been wrongly accused, people who were very much identified with the me too movement, the goal was to get those people off the jury. so, yes, i can watch it and criticize joe tacopina's performance as a person who feels very strongly in one direction, but i am not a juror on this trial, and it's really anybody's guess what those nine people, all of whom are anonymous to us, what they are thinking. >> let me ask you one question about what she did. you've talked about how e. jean carroll has owned things, and she has addressed some of these things, that trump's attorneys would bring up during cross examination. let me ask you about this one point, that she was flirting with trump in the moments leading up to the alleged assault. talk about that. >> e. jean carroll was a trail blazing journalist. it's something that most people don't know, and i tweeted about it earlier this week. she is very much associated with the school of journalism called gonzo journalism, world

journalism not only reported on a story, but inserted some cells into it. as part of that, e. jean carroll came of age during a time where women had to in order to survive and succeed journalistically, rely on this flirtatious banter. a willingness to go further and put themselves into the story in ways that you and i would consider almost unprofessional and unthinkable now. she was thinking about this as a story, initially, infiltrated to something violent. >> okay, lisa reuben, thank you so much for your perspective as always. america's grape divide, surprising numbers and revelations and a new nbc poll. and a new nbc poll ves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work.

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finds americans are more divided than ever. disagreement found on almost everything from race, to culture and the polarization is following mostly on partisan lines. joining me now is katie hill -- california, and shermichael singleton, former political strategist for three republican presidential campaigns and host of the -- show on sirius xm. welcome to you both. let's start with the issue of race. when asked if americans are not judged by the color of their skin but the context of her character, 40 said in percent agree and 52% disagree. katie, what did those numbers tell you and you agree with the breakdown? >> it tells me that we are sharply divided, because that's

what republicans are trying to do. they're trying to divide us, they're trying to drive these wedges because that's the only thing that works for them. they don't have a policy agenda that is meaningful in any way that helps americans. they are trying to use this whole idea of, you know, we, the democrats are woke and are trying to give advantages to -- anyway, their whole thing is about driving us apart, and unfortunately in many ways it's working. we have to fight against it. >> -- shermichael, 59% feel american society is racist. tell me what's fueling those sentiments to dare. i think for a lot of communities of color and that particular poll, if you look at the cross tabulations it broke down two particular groups as it pertains to that pacific question. african americans and latino americans. i'm willing to bet, alex, most of those sentiments are related to some of the policies those

two groups e and perceived from the republican party. we have to be honest about that. that question that you asked, the former representative, i looked that question, and one of the concerns i had when looking at the cross tabs, you could not see the age breakdown of that question, alex. so what i did, i went and searched for other polls that asked similar questions. what you found is that younger americans, people around my age, millennials, gen z's, were open to pretty much every one of every ethnicity and every gender. however, when you get to about 55 and older, that's when you see a lot of bigotry and views that are just, quite frankly, from decades ago. i think it's really, really important to point that out as we talk about this so that were accurate as possible. i don't think it's representative of everybody, but rather an older group of americans. >> i'm glad you made that point. let's move to transcend durr rights, because it's another issue right now. the center of all the culture wars. this week, the montana legislator band a democratic

transgender lawmaker from the house floor after she criticize an anti-trans bill. here is that representative, zoe zephyr. >> what we're seeing is that there's -- and citizens who aren't willing to just sit down and let these really harmful bills pass. the people in power are trying to use rules, fuzzy rules applied unevenly, like the quorum, to try to silence -- >> the move is striking a somewhat similar court to this tennessee state lawmakers who are protesting gun violence, right? katie, what concerns you most about incidents of lawmakers being punished for disagreeing with the republican majority? what message is that sending? >> it's anti-democratic and it's showing that when you disagree with the sentiment that's being pushed by republican supermajority in these cases, you don't have a voice. that's going to backfire. what's important to point out

in this case is that what they silenced representative zephyr for is saying that they have blood on their hands for stopping gender affirming care. that's true. we know for a fact that suicidality and depression and self harm are majorly increase when people don't, when trans people don't have access to this kind of care. i think that that's important to recognize. they don't want to hear that truth, they're going to silence people. we will continue to see this and i genuinely believe it's going to backfire. >> here is a look on nbc's poll on society and transgender rights, it's beyond the numbers, though. republican led states are restricting transgender rights. why republicans putting so much focus on this, and why are these efforts -- more than help it. >> that's a good question. i was looking at the original poll that we discussed here earlier, now the nbc poll. we found that 61% of the country wants to be more tolerant on lgbt issues.

the next question was 59% believe that we've gone too far in promoting the lgbt lifestyle. it indicates to me that we have -- hey, we don't want to be intolerant to certain types of people, but we are going a little too far. i think they're trying to find a solution on this. both sides have to figure out, what is the best way, policy wise, that creates an atmosphere and environment for people who are of that community to be themselves. i think most americans do -- don't want fellow americans committing suicide, really because i disagree with their particular lifestyle choice. for me, just trying to figure out a solution oriented answer to this. as a both sides -- what's the best solution in that regard. >> okay. listen guys, we don't have time to do the woke discussion, which mean we'll have you back very soon to do that. thank you so much to both. meantime, a new detail to tell you about in the fight between id