vast majority of americans do not support that, which will hurt his electability case. donald trump is saying, let it go to the states. nikki haley is saying there should be a national consensus but didn't offer a national consensus position. you know, they are in disarray. now, the one part of polling that should concern democrats is that only 22% of americans support no restrictions on abortion. >> all right. national political correspondent for "axios," alex thompson, a lot of good stuff. and thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. this dinner is one of the two great traditions in washington. the other one is underestimaing me and kamala. >> we have to get back on the air, mr. president. millions of americans don't even know why they hate you. >> couple jokes from saturday's white house correspondence dinner. we'll have a lot more moments

for you, including president biden's nod to a popular meme. also ahead, donald trump praises the january 6th rioter who has said members of congress who certified the 2020 election should be executed. plus, an international trip for ron desantis just didn't generate the headlines he was hoping for. in fact, most of the headlines, well, especially out of britain, were terrible. we'll have new reporting on that. and we're going to dig into the breaking financial news this morning. the third failure of an american bank since march, and who is coming in to save the day? good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, may the 1st. with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. oh, jonathan, we have much to talk to you about in the boston sports world. also, special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. the founder of the conservative website, the bulwark, charlie sykes. and columnist and associate editor for "the washington

post," david ignatius. first of all, jonathan, i just have to ask, what happened to the bruins? >> just truly devastating. the stanley cup playoffs are so fantastic, but they're so tough. and the bruins, who just had a record-setting regular season, the most wins, most points by any nhl team ever, then had a 3-1 series lead here against the eighth seeded panthers, and they're done. they lost three in a row. they blew a game last night. they were up a goal with less than a minute to play. florida tied it. forced overtime. they won it in the extra period. >> yeah. >> hockey is -- it's such a fast, intense sport, but having home ice, you know, home field advantage, doesn't matter that much. the panthers were simply better. the bruins got shaky and tight. what had been a magical season came to a sudden, crashing halt. >> i feel like mika here, talking about sports. i don't know anything about hockey, but i do know this. >> i kept it short. >> all year i've been hearing

the boston bruins were absolutely dominating. >> yeah. >> i hear the red sox announcers talk about how great they were every night. quite a shock going out. as far as the red sox go, with no apologies to mike barnicle, i will say, they are .500 and fabulous. the most exciting .500 team i've seen. >> that's right. >> david ignatius, going from sports to war, how about that for a segue -- but we'll watch the sports. thank you for that fadeout. i want to ask, a lot of things seem to be moving right now in the ukraine-russian war. you, of course, had the massive drone strike in crimea, the spring offensive coming up. i heard republicans actually fretting. say republicans, trumpists fretting on the other news channel, about how she may ride in and bring peace to the region. how horrible, peace to the

region in their eyes if the russians use china as a way to back out. then, of course, the vaticanvat. word is the vatican is considering secret talks in trying to bring peace to the region. what's the state of play right now in ukraine and russia? >> joe, the simplest way i can put it is preparation of the battlefield for what's ahead, and that implies also the diplomatic activity on the sidelines. you're seeing, with ukrainian attacks, the attack on the fuel depot in crimea. other movements that they're making, either faints or the beginning of the offensive that's coming. ukraine has a lot riding on its ability to move russian forces back. to use the armored vehicles, the additional weapons that we and the europeans have been giving them, to actually change these lines over the next few months.

russians are going to fight back with everything they have. it's really telling to me, joe, that the russian winter offensive, which was focused on just one little place at the edge of donetsk, has failed to make more than a few hundred yards, typically, in a week. just a sign that even when the russians are so focused, they don't achieve the breakthroughs they want. anybody tells you they know exactly what's coming from the ukrainians, i think, is either living with their commander or lying. >> yup. >> i think my only concern is this growing desire for peace. the ukrainians have to make significant progress for the world to say, "okay, let's sign up for another year of this after the offensive happens." >> we will see. a lot riding on the spring offensive, no doubt. finally, before we get to our news, charlie, i have to bring

this up. we've talked about it before, but it's just -- it's still astounding to me. mika and i were flipping through channels the other night. we came across a certain news channel, a certain channel, and there was a former republican speaker there. i won't give names. i don't want to make this too personal, but his first name was newt. he kept going on and on about how weak and terrible the united states was, how we are china's lapdog, basically, and we're being led around by china. we're so pathetic. it follows up on what i've been talking about, and i know what you've been talking about. it is just astounding how anti-american these people are. how they run down the united states of america and say how weak and how pathetic and how terrible the united states of america is. when, i can tell you, going

around the world, talking to world leaders, nobody is going, "oh, we wish you guys would lead." they're saying, "you're being too aggressive in asia. you're setting up too many bases. you're being too confrontational with china. you're being too aggressive in the middle east. you're being too aggressive in europe." i mean, all of the complaints about the united states across the globe are that we are too powerful, that our military is too powerful, that our dollar is too powerful, that our economy is too powerful, that we're running over even our allies. that we're stronger than we've ever been. that's what our friends and enemies are saying. yet, you listen to these republicans, these trump republicans. they just tear down the united states of america all the time. if they want to do it, it's a free country. they are, of course, the ones who said "america, love it or leave it" in the '60s.

bit ironic, or hypocritical, i could say. what's the end game for them? do they really think americans are going to vote for a political movement that hates on america and its military every day? >> apparently, they do. so let's go there. remember, it was within the last year that ted cruz was putting out internet memes comparing the weak american military with the manly, macho russian military. remember all that? why can't we be more like the russians? and, of course, leaving newt aside for a moment, maybe if we can leave him aside and leave him there, but think about what the leading republican candidate for president does, every time he is asked about the world situation. he talks about how weak america is. how much he disdains our allies and how much he admires the authoritarian leaders of the rest of the world. whether it is putin or -- >> charlie, he also says the gravest threat to the western

civilization is not china, it's not russia. >> right. >> the united states of america, that has fed and freed more people, it's all about hating america. i don't see the end game politically. >> you and i have been watching this many, many years. republicans saying the democrats are weak, that's kind of old. but what we're seeing now is this idea that america is really not that exceptional anymore. i mean, this, i think, mind boggling. the way in which the republicans under trump have pivoted to, you know, we're not necessarily any better than vladimir putin. we kill people, as well. we are not necessarily a force for good in the world. and it is this admiration of our enemies that i think is almost without precedent. it is without precedent.

in american political history, coming from the right especially, and you have to go -- >> it's weird. >> -- back to the 1930s perhaps. it is weird. you not only have them invested in this idea that we are weak and our enemies are strong, but somehow our enemies are -- what was donald trump's phrase? they were top shelf. they're the most brilliant people in the world, unlike our own leaders. again, this is extraordinary. the question is whether or not voters are going to see through this. the contempt and the disdain, not just for america but for american values. because america, in order for america to be great, we actually have to project these democratic values. those are under siege, as well. >> yeah. >> you know, it is an extraordinary -- it's an extraordinary circumstance, and the rest of the world has been watching the clock and wondering when joe biden said america was back, and he was asked how long, the question still is hanging out there. >> you know, katty, i've started, because of a friend, i've started really digging into world war i history, which is

fascinating. because in the united states, we focus much more on world war ii, obviously, than world war i. but it is -- there are just so many books. you go back, and you look through the history of it, especially what happened between the assassination to the outbreak of war. i have no doubt that 50 years from now, 75 years from now, people are going to be trying to figure out what caused vladimir putin to make the decision that he made that's leading to the complete collapse of the russian military, will lead to the complete collapse of the russian economy, has put russia in the position where they will forever have a smaller gdp than the state of texas. think about that. a smaller gdp than the state of texas. yet, donald trump calls vladimir putin's invasion brilliant, savvy, brilliant. >> yeah. >> unbelievable. that shows you just how twisted his view is of reality and how

desperate he is to praise these tyrants. >> and in the process, vladimir putin has managed to trouble russia's border with nato, as well, with the succession of finland into nato, too. not great for him. if you're reading the world war i books, "sleepwalking" is a good book at this moment. it's about the years that led into world war i. i've had an alarming number of conversations about whether we are headed for world war iii at the moment. it is worth revisiting that -- you're right, that's the moment in history to revisit at the moment. >> that's actually the book i'm in the middle of. i was told that you have to read this book first. it is extraordinary, yeah. >> it is a good one. um, we're going to get to other news, and i wish i was not doing this news on a beautiful spring morning, monday may the 1st, but here we are again in the united states. there is a manhunt under way in texas for a suspect accused of killing five of his neighbors, including a

9-year-old boy, in a rural area outside houston. investigators say the gunman was angry that the neighbors asked him to stop shooting his assault style rifle in his yard late friday night because it was keeping an infant awake. minutes later, he went into the neighbor's home and fired as many as 15 rounds. the county sheriff says all of the victims were shot in the head, including two women who were in the bedroom trying to shield young children. on saturday, searchers found the suspect's rifle, cell phone and some of his clothing before scent tracking dogs lost his trail. the sheriff says the suspect might still be armed and with a handgun. right now, local, state and federal authorities are searching for the gunman, but they say they have zero leads as to where he could be. they hope an $80,000 reward will bring in tips that lead to his arrest. here we are, lemire, monday morning, here we are again.

this story is so grim. he was shooting his rifle, and all they said was, "dude, we have a baby that's trying to sleep. please give us a break and stop doing your practice in the yard." >> let's think about this. think about the last few weeks here in america, where we have had people shot to death because they knocked on the wrong door. we have had people shot to death because they pulled into the wrong driveway. we have had people shot to death because they accidentally stepped into the wrong car. now, we've had people shot to death because they asked a neighbor to shot shooting his assault rifle in the middle of the night because it was keeping their baby up. that is where we are in the united states of america. and the governor of the state of texas, the republican texas, greg abbott, he contributed $50,000 of that $80,000 reward. but while announcing the reward, he seemed to find the need to describe the victims of the shooting as illegal immigrants. we're not sure what the immigration status of the

victims has to do with it, and we'll also note that at least one of them was a permanent resident of the united states. charlie sykes, the governor went out of his way to say the suspect appears to be an illegal immigrant, but he also found the need to say the victims, five victims, were also illegal immigrants to the united states. talk to us about where the republican party stands right now on the issues, the twin issues of guns and immigration. >> well, that's an extraordinary moment, that he felt the need to do that. this was -- this was -- this cried out for a little bit of compassion, for some leadership. of course, we got neither of those. look, the republican party is -- has paralyzed itself. it's allowed its to be held hostage to the nra, to the most extreme voices. this is not new. but, you know, what's amazing is how deeply invested they are in the narrative that an arms society is a polite society. the second amendment is about a well regulated militia.

that more guns means less crime. think about the last week. think about all those stories, jonathan, you just told, what we are seeing in this country. we are seeing the country overrun by guns in which people distrust one another, they fear one another, and in which we continue to have our quote, unquote, thought leaders who are ginning up that dislike and disdain for each other. we're having shootouts in parking lots, in people's driveways, on people's porches. i would like to see that some of this is going to shock the conscience of the nation. i'm afraid the conscience of the nation, at least the republican party, has been numb for too long about all of this. >> david, it is -- first of all, it's just -- i can't ever remember a -- any leader in the united states trying to somehow mitigate the pain of an

8-year-old, 9-year-old being shot in the head, oh people being shot, by identifying their status. feeling the need to say, "oh, these were illegal immigrants that shot shot and killed." there's a callousness to it, just like sending illegal immigrants up to washington, d.c. on christmas eve and putting them outside of the naval observatory as they freeze outside, when they get off the bus. but, again, on the gun issue, too, again, just complete callousness. the cheerleader goes into the wrong car, she gets shot. a young woman drives into the wrong driveway, she gets shot in the back trying to leave that driveway. we've seen it time and again. a young man knocks on a door, the wrong door, looking for his twin brother. he gets shot twice.

this is a country out of control in gun violence. >> it is. you can't look at the headlines and not feel precisely that. the question for me, joe, is when people say, "we can't live like this anymore, we just can't do it" and begin to break all the political certainties, can't challenge the gun lobbies, can't do anything at the federal level, there is a rebellion against the way we are living right now. the callousness demonstrated by the incidents we're talking about. this sense that this is a problem that can't be fixed. it goes on year after year. the numbers. every week, we get up waiting to hear about a new shooting. one of my children is a teacher. seeing her have to deal with preparations for mass shootings at her school, which every school in america has to do now, is simply not a way to live. it's not viable. what the breakpoint is, what it

looks like i can't say. any problem like this, joe, i always think, a good leader would be defined by the ability to break through this sense of blockage and speak to the country about what everybody feels. we can't live this way anymore. we don't see that person yet. >> it's a matter of time. 90% of americans supporting universal background check. 75% of americans supporting red flag laws nationwide. you have an overwhelming majority of americans supporting one gun safety law after another. that includes republicans. that includes gun owners. as david said, it's not like these tragedies are going to slow down. republicans know they're going to continue. they are going to continue in schools. they are going to continue in churches. they are going to continue in synagogues. they are going to continue in country music festivals. they are going to continue in middle america. they're going to continue on the

coast. this is -- this is inevitable. the question is, you know, to paraphrase john kerry, who is going to be the last school child to have to die because republicans in state lenl slay legislatures and in congress won't step up and do what they know they have to do and what the american people want them to do? >> yet, joe, we have members of congress who show up wearing ar-15 pins. we have members of congress who put out christmas cards where they're posing with their family with weapons of mass destruction in schools. look, i have to tell you, going back to 2012, if what happened in newtown, connecticut, did not break the country, did not shock the country into action, i don't know what would. i mean, i still remember my reaction to that. i remember the debate that took place and how, tragically, we

went back into this doom loop. the question is, what will it take? how many school shootings? well, how many school shootings have we had? how many weeks have we started off with this conversation? this is what happens when you have a paralysis. david made a very, very good point. at some point, is there some leader out there, someone from either party, who can stand up and look the american people in the eye and say, "you know, we cannot continue to live like this." there have been a lot of people trying, but maybe that message can't be delivered anymore. maybe this is the american carnage that we have chosen. but the political indifference is breathtaking. actually, i don't know whether my microphone was on, jonathan, but when you read that tweet from governor abbott, i actually blurted out, "what?" i hadn't seen that before, that he had felt the need to say these were five illegal immigrants. think about the mentality, the

insensitivity. rather than talking about this family that was caring for their children, a 9-year-old boy, instead of the basic humanity, he felt the need to label them in the most divisive way he can. we know what the politics of greg abbott are. we know what the politics of texas republicans are when it comes to the gun issue and immigration. for him to connect the dots there takes just one more data point of the cruelty, the brutality. i mean, i'm not telling you anything when i say that, for many of these politicians, cruelty is the point. he felt the need to insert that line into that particular moment just reminds us of that. >> it is a sad moment for our country. tragic moment out of texas. also sad for american democracy. when you actually have the

governor of one of the larger states in america feeling the need to be hateful and to be callous, after a mother tries to shield her 9-year-old child. both are shot in the head. instead of even a hope and prayers tweet, he feels like he has to stamp a label on the dead bodies, illegal immigrant. just think about the mindset of that. just think about the mindset of that. a guy who probably runs around, you know, maybe he's part of this christian nationalist movement. what would jesus do? you know, you don't have to be a bible scholar to know, not that. what a dreadful, shameful thing from the governor from a state

that brought us uvalde. you do see, and as charlie said, you saw it happen in sandy hook, it just shattered the country. yet, in congress, they did nothing. representatives, including republican representatives in connecticut, did something. you can go through parkland. this was movement on guns in florida after that tragedy. then, yeah, uvalde. uvalde got some republicans in congress to do something, but not enough. the carnage continues. little children continue to get slaughtered by weapons designed for war. still, the republican party does nothing. ahead, we have another major bank failure in the united states. first republic bank has been overtaken by federal regulators and will be soldjpmorgan.

we'll talk about the developments and what it means for the u.s. economy and your deposis in banks. florida governor ron desantis meets with leaders in the uk. talk about underwhelming the crowd. also ahead, more of the best jokes from the white house correspondents dinner. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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msnbc owned by nbc universal. fox news owned by dominion voting systems. >> the tucker staff, i want you to know i know what you're feeling. i work at "the daily show," so i, too, have been blindsided by the sudden departure of the host of a fake news program. >> goodness gracious. a lot of jokes at fox news. i have to say, judging by the cutaways, they took it all in very good spirits. a lot of smiles, a lot of laughter there. david ignatius, i just keep looking at the latest person to spill u.s. secrets. the airman, i'm reading here, the airman. you look back at violent comments in chat groups. he was suspended from high school after discussing molotov

cocktails and other weapons. he didn't hide the incident, a military official said. you've written about how we need to stop these intelligent leaks. it keeps happening. every time it does, we ask the same thing, "how in the world did the person who leaked these documents, when we look closer at their life, how in the world did they get security clearance?" more importantly, how did they keep a security clearance? >> joe, this is one of the mysteries of our national life. we've been talking about it, and other mass shootings, doesn't seem soluble. the hemorrhages of classified information is another. first, it is important that the alleged person who did this, airman teixeira, was a systems administrator, which gives you unusual powers to cruise over wide ranges of data, not the

usual controls in a similar way of edward snowden. he had a history of being a systems administrator in the past, in fact. what i've come to is to think that the controls need to be built, not into the people overseeing the system who fail again and again, but into the system itself. a system that enforces the need to know through software. you simply can't operate, you can't get documents without leaving a clear trail, without establishing your permissions to be looking at that document. i think in the end, technology here can help us solve a problem. human beings seem unable to. the final thing, joe, i'd note, is i asked people in our government to explain this to me. they kept saying, "we're still looking at this. we really don't even know, even now, two weeks later, exactly

how this young man was able to get this many documents. and range over a wide area of subjects." that's one sign of just how hard a puzzle this is to solve. >> still a lot of questions, clearly some -- >> yeah, let's move on with the news. katty, really quickly, so sorry, front page of "the wall street journal" today. i know it's been going around this weekend. "wall street journal" got ahold of jeffrey epstein's private calendar. we have bank presidents, goldman sachs lawyer, cia directors. go down the list. this guy, even after he was charged with being a pedophile in florida and was in house arrest, this guy kept meeting with some of the most powerful people in, not only the united states government, but in banking and other areas, as well.

>> yeah. i found that list amazing. bill burns, you know, why does he need to meet with jeffrey epstein? did he have critical information he needed to pass along? the high-profile nature of the list was stunning. breaking news overnight, another american bank has failed. just this morning, financial regulators in california seized first republic bank after it lost $100 billion in deposits just in march. it marks the second largest bank to fail in american history. the fed struck a deal to sell most of the bank's operations to jpmorgan chase, according to "the wall street journal." the move heads off a chaotic collapse that threatened to reignite the recent banking crisis. we'll get a live report from the nasdaq, coming up on "morning joe." also, new reaction is pouring in after former president donald trump embraced a january 6th defendant at a diner during a campaign stop in new hampshire last week. trump called the woman, quote, terrific.

she was identified as mickey larson olsen, a qanon supporters who says she considers trump the real president. she served prison time for her actions during the capitol attack, and she says she wants former vice president mike pence executed for treason. here's how the moment played out thursday in manchester. >> she's a -- >> where is she? >> she's a j-6er. >> just hang in there. >> this is the best day of my life. >> can i bother you to sign -- >> we love trump! we love trump! >> take this pen. >> thank you, sir. >> take care of yourself, okay? >> i'm good. i got out. >> you've been through too much. >> that's not a candidate being ambushed. he goes out of his way to look for her. nbc correspondent vaughn hillyard interviewed the woman

last september when she called for the execution of members of congress who certified the 2020 election. >> those were domestic terrorists inside our capitol, and i'm going to prove it on my trial. >> who were the domestic terrorists? >> our congress. our congress that has been stealing elections for a very long time. our country has been under admiral law since 1871. >> what should the punishment for the members of congress be? >> execution for being traitors. that's what our constitution demands. our constitution demands that traitors in our nation are executed. that's what should happen to each and every person that hijacked the voice of we the people. >> is that something that you see actually happening? >> yes. >> does she believe it? is it a show? what's with the outfit? a spokesperson for the trump campaign did not immediately respond to request for comment. neither did a pence spokesperson. lemire, former republican congresswoman, by the way, liz

cheney of wyoming did respond with this tweet. quote, trump is embracing a january 6th defendant who called for the execution of members of congress. you are endorsing the conduct of january 6th and every day since. the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. we know that quote, lemire, but -- >> we do. >> -- she's there embracing trump. >> so often, it falls to the likes of liz cheney as one of the lone republican voices to speak out against something like this. what'd it get her? a 40-point congressional loss last year and losing her congressional seat. there was aftermath chatter. how could trump's people let her get near him? he sought her out. he was delighted to see her. it was a message he deliberately sent. charlie sykes, this is someone who has appeared with a choir of convicts, of january 6th convicts, and they sing and he appears with them. this is not something he is

running from. he is embracing it. it is part of a further effort to normalize january 6th in the republican discourse from donald trump and, frankly, most of the republicans. even if they're not embracing it, they're keeping their mouth shut. >> yeah, there's no question about it that she's a little bit on the fringe. but this is not a one off, jonathan, as you are pointing out. he went down to waco, texas, and stood with his hand on his heart while they played the anthem from january 6th pro -- well, rioters. look, this is something that donald trump has made no secret of, that he wants to rewrite the history of january 6th. he wants to associate with them. he regards them as great patriots. he said repeatedly or implied repeatedly that he would, in fact, pardon them all if he got back into power. what is extraordinary about liz cheney's comment, as you point out, is how rare and unusual it

is. here we are, allegedly in the midst of a presidential campaign, right? there are other republicans who are running. how many other republicans said, "this is unacceptable. this sends the wrong message"? we are talking about people who are calling for the execution of members of congress. who, in fact, are, you know, calling for the death penalty for mike pence. this should be low-hanging fruit. this should not be difficult. this is not a morally wrenching decision for republicans to say, "no, you know, we'll go with you this far but we're not going to go this far, as you have gone." again, to underline the fact, this is not a one-off. donald trump has been aggressively embracing the people who attacked, invaded the capitol, and i think that people need to understand that that is not simply a historical fact. he's also signaling that he

supported the coup last time and he might support future actions, again, particularly as someone who has called for mass protests if and when he is indicted. so this is -- this is a very incendiary situation. >> and you have mainstream republicans who were considered mainstream in 2023, charlie. they're rushing to endorse donald trump. they're rushing to mar-a-lago, despite the fact -- >> amazing. >> -- that this guy, a presidential candidate, has a convict choir of rioters actually singing. he's saluting them. the fact that he continues to pander to these rioters. they're called political prisoners by donald trump and his republican party. >> yeah. >> and you even go back to before and during january 6th. it is donald trump that told the proud boys to stand back and stand by. it's donald trump that, after his lawyer said, "no, you have

no case here," he ran and tweeted, i think in the middle of the night, "come to washington january 6th. it is going to be wild." right? he said that. then on january 6th, and we found this out by questioning people who work for donald trump, everybody in the white house wanted him to call down and stop the riots. his children, his lawyers, his workers. i remember pat cipollone was asked, who in the white house did not want him to call, and cipollone said, "no one. everybody wants him to call and stop the riots." what was donald trump doing for hours? staring at the violence and rewinding to the most violent parts of police officers -- again, these are people rushing to endorse him at mar-a-lago. trump watching and taking delight with police officers getting their brains bashed in by american flags. and these republicans rush to

endorse him now, charlie? i mean, talk about a sickness. people say, it's not fascism, it's this, it's that. i just -- i don't know. how tightly do we define fascism in 2023 when you have, actually, an attempt to overthrow a government through violence,con that violence and the glorification of the people who tried to overthrow the federal government. so much so that he's turned these rioters, he's turned these insurrectionists into political heros who now have a convict choir that he salutes. >> yeah, for all the millions of americans who think they've taken crazy pills this morning, you're not the crazy ones. you know, this actually happened. we saw it with our own eyes. he continues to embrace it. over the last week, this

incredible -- again, the recapitulation of the republican party to donald trump, it is may 1st, yet one republican leader after another is baseically saying, "we got this. we'll go back into a hostage situation with donald trump." you have steve daines, the head of the senate committee, preemptively endorsing donald trump. they're not even going through the motions of opposing him or embracing an alternative. it is amazing, the muscle memory of political cowardice in the republican party. that ron desantis has a few bad weeks, and they've been horrible, horrendous. rather than saying, well, is there anybody else? what you're seeing is they're falling into line. you know, even as you lay out all the things donald trump is doing, the parallel to that is the republican party is saying, "yeah, we're okay with that. we're going to do this again." despite all the crazy, despite the fascism, despite the insurrection, we're going to do

this again. >> by the way, the people that are doing it, so many thinking, yeah, we're owning the libs. joe and charlie, who are conservatives, they're freaking out. we're not freaking out. what you don't understand, republicans, we know how this story ends, okay? you don't have to be dr. strange, like, sitting and going through 14 million different possible endings. we know how this ends. it ends with you losing, with republicans losing, with donald trump losing. so if you think that democrats are somehow owned by you continuing to glorify a guy who glorifies american violence and the beating up of cops with american flags, you're not reading the room right. you lost in 2017. you lost in 2018. you lost in 2019. you lost in 2020. you lost in 2021. you lost in 2022.

you lost in 2023. from kansas to wisconsin, it keeps getting worse. so you're only owning yourself. but if you want to put your hand on the stove, that's your call. enjoy it. charlie sykes, thank you so much. yeah, they're not the crazy ones. people watching, not the crazy ones. it's the republicans that keep making themselves lose elections. coming up, week two of the trial in the civil rape lawsuit against donald trump kicks off later today in new york city. things don't seem to be going very well for mr. trump. we're going to have the latest in thatformer president's comments on social media could open him up to more potential legal liability. his lawyers nervous. "morning joe" will be right back. to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated

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6:48 on the east coast.

time to look at the morning papers. a federal judge is blocking the state from enforcing a ban on assault weapons. democrats passed the measure in response to a deadly mass shooting during a fourth of july parade last year. several groups finding a lawsuit against it. friday, a judge ruled the law causes irreparable harm by denying people the ability to, quote, exercise their right to self-defense in the manner they choose. it comes, of course, just days after another federal judge rejected a request to block the law. joe, i mean, states are trying to take measures to implement sensible gun laws, then courts are coming back and saying, no, these people have a right to defend themselves. >> katty, of course, the united states supreme court has already ruled in heller. >> yeah. >> that americans have a right to a handgun, maybe a shotgun inside their house to defend themselves.

after that, outside the home, it's really up to the individual states. you look at states like --says,s such a violation against second amendment rights," i go to the connecticut law or california law that is pretty sweeping and expansive, or even some of the florida laws after parkland, and say, "the supreme court hasn't reversed those." >> right. >> so those are the law of those states. the constitution, again, on second amendment rights, remains fairly limited. this is a decision that maybe the judge wants the supreme court to listen to it. if they do, they'll overturn it and defer to the states. >> yeah. in ohio, "the dayton daily news" has a front page feature on the nationwide shortage of adhd medication. the shortage began last year. officials say the demand for treatments increased after telehealth regulations were

relaxed during the pandemic to allow doctors to prescribe medication. also, dea's production limits are blamed. there is a call to come up with a federal response to fix the shortage. "the atlanta journal constitution" reports georgia's national guard is targeting teen smartphones as part of a recruitment effort. the military force is uing geolocation technology to reach smartphones within a mile of 67 metro atlanta high schools. they're targeting the social media platforms and hope to hit 3.5 million ad views by september 30th. but the technology doesn't discriminate by age. younger kids in elementary and middle schools could also be targeted by the ads, as well. finally, "the post standard" lead with the new york city metropolitan transportation authority's decision to pull out of twitter. the agency typically posts delays and alerts on the social media site. but last week, officials learned its access to the application

programming interface was suspended without warning. twitter asked the agency to pay $50,000 a month to use the program. officials say paying that money isn't the best use of its resources. don't look to twitter if you think that your subway ride is going to be late this morning. coming up, the june cover story of "the atlantic" magazine makes the case for the total liberation of ukraine. jeffrey goldberg and anne applebaum join us with a look inside the new issue. "morning joe" will be right back. they didn't know about this view. or their neighbors down the hill. but one thing they did know is exactly how much they'd pay. because vrbo is different. ♪ i struggled with cpap every night. but now that i got the inspire implant, it's making me think of doing other things i've been putting off. like removing that tattoo of your first wife's name. inspire.

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prejudice. carroll is set to take the stand again this morning. trump's attorneys say she made up the claims for book sales. the former president, meanwhile, continued to trash the trial on social media, leading the judge to admonish him, saying he could, quote, be tampering with a new source of potential liability. let's bring in right now criminal defense attorney and former watergate prosecutor john sale, and also former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. thank you, both, for being with us again. john, this is what i don't understand, and, again, i don't understand this from back when i was a simple country lawyer. you have donald trump trashing the manhattan d.a. in that case, trashing the judge, going after the judge's children. in this case, you have donald trump once again using social media to attack the judge, to attack the case. where i come from, and maybe

this just happens in northwest florida, you don't trash the judge. you don't trash the trials. you don't question the integrity of the court. you'll get sanctioned by the court and, this is what i keep waiting for, john, the court will issue a gag order. why won't any of these courts do this? >> good morning, joe. well, i'm also from florida, and i always -- when someone says i'm a good, old country lawyer, i know they can run circles around people with the fancy ivy league degrees that i have. so i take you quite seriously and your comments. you raise a very good question. the reason is that how can you enforce a contempt order? you issue a gag order, and former president trump is just going to thumb his nose at it. i think that'll just energize him. what does a judge do? i mean, you issue a gag order, and how do you enforce it? if it was against anyone else, you, me or anybody, it would

ultimately be through a contempt. well, what are you going to do? are you going to put donald trump in rikers island, together with his secret service agents? are you going to fine him? you fine him, it'll be more of a martyr. the pac he has will pay the fine, and he'll raise more money as a result of that. i think the real question is, what to you do about it, and how do you stop him? you know, when i was listening to you earlier, joe, you were talking about the path he is going down. he's going to lose in 2024. i'm concerned not about 2024, i'm concerned about his social posts, death and destruction, suspend the constitution. >> right. >> we have to do something. we have to speak up against that, not in 2024, now. otherwise, we're going to have riots in the streets. we're going to have things like we just saw in new hampshire. we all, democrat, republican, progressive, conservative, we all have to denounce the violence. we have to denounce the calls

for attacking the victim. i don't understand why that's not happening. i think we have to have one voice, and we have to say, "that's not tolerable." otherwise, we're all falling down on our duties as people, as citizens, and people who believe in the constitution. if i was asked to join the trump team as a lawyer, and i turned it down, but i would have fought as vigorously as i could to protect him and to remind people he is presumed innocent. that's the constitution he is trashing. >> i understand some of the challenges. i agree with you completely on that, and thank you for saying. i understand the problems the judge will have in forcing the condemn order. do you send a president to rikers island? let's remove donald trump from this fact pattern, and let's

just say it was one of your clients. any one of your clients, throughout your entire career, if any one of your clients throughout your entire career continued trashing the judge, continued trashing the judge's family, made them targets, in any other case, what would the judge to? >> the judge would call them in, would admonish them, would issue a gag order, would issue contempt, and if it was violated, he'd throw his behind right in prison. but no one is above the law, and my experience in watergate, and i can genuinely say i've lived through that, to prove that, but presidents, former presidents, are different. i mean, i was visiting new york. i practiced in miami, but i was visiting new york. have a lot of work here. when former president trump was arraigned in the manhattan d.a.'s court. all you had to do was look around and see how the city was tied up, how his motorcade brought him to court, how he didn't have to be put in

handcuffs. i've had a number of prominent clients who, when they were arrested or surrendered, they had to be put in handcuffs. he is already being treated specially. former presidents are treated differently. the answer to your question, joe, is my clients would have been put in jail. but i don't see that that can happen to the former president. i've spoken to some friends who are federal judges, and i've said to them, confidential conversations, i said, hypothetically, what would you do? how could you enforce that? they've all said, frankly, i just don't know. >> joyce vance, e. jean carroll is expected to be back on the stand today, cross-examined by trump's lawyers. give your assessment so far as to what you've seen from the trial, which, up until recently, was flying under the radar compared to some of the other investigations into trump. we should note, of course, this is a civil case. what's your assessment of e. jean carroll's credibility, and

what will you be looking for today? >> it's important to note we're not getting to watch this trial. it is happening in federal court. there are no cameras in federal courts, and there's perhaps no better argument for allowing the federal judiciary to place them there than the fact we're not getting to see an important part of our legal system in action. but that aside, we're benefitting from the reporters who are sitting in the courtroom and going almost line by line through this testimony. that's how the picture that we're getting emerges about carroll's testimony. you know, something that will happen later this week is that the court, the jury will hear from two outcry witnesses. outcry witnesses are people that the victim of a sexual assault goes to close in time to when the assault occurred and tells them the story. and the expectation is that these two witnesses, long-time friends of carroll's, will say that she told them the same story when these events occurred

that the jury is hearing today. so the fact that she has been a compelling witness on the witness stand, she has broken down and it's been emotional for her in some regards, but at the same time, she has not given any ground to trump's lawyer, joe tacopina. this is not a criminal trial. this is not a rape trial. that's worth saying again because it means that the standard that the jury will use to decide this case will be different than the proof beyond a reasonable doubt standard that's used in a criminal trial. this jury only has to find by a preponderance of the evidence that it is more likely than not that carroll is telling the truth. >> so in the david ignatius in washington. i wanted to ask john if he'd give us an assessment of how trump's attorney in new york, joe tacopina, is doing with this very difficult defendant. how would you rate his performance in court? >> bearing in mind what joyce

said, there are no cameras. i certainly have not been in the courtroom. joe tacopina, or anyone else, has an obligation to represent his client and to challenge the credibility of the complaining witness. the criticism of him is you don't bully. when your client is charged with being a bully, you don't bully the complaining witness. based on media reports, he's coming on too strong, much too strong, and it's likely to backfire. but it's a major caveat to say. i haven't been there and seen it with my own eyes. >> the broader context of how many rape victims see some kind of justice in courtrooms in the united states, i know it is very hard to know how many rape victims there are because so many women come forwards. but the chances of actually, generally speaking, of a rape victim being charged are pretty

small, aren't they? sorry, a rapist getting charged. >> right. we have a spotty record on that in this country, and it is because the origins of the law in this area involve not protection of the victim but, all too often, protection of the property right that a father or a husband has in the chastity of the victim. we have moved past that point, and the law has evolved in this country. still, and we see it in the carroll trial, which is not a criminal trial, but nonetheless, she's been subjected to comments like the cross-examination from joe tacopina, where he, in essence, accuses her of lying because she didn't cry out during the rape. because she didn't protest loudly. she didn't scream. so women and other victims of sexual assault in america appreciate that they'll undergo this second victimization if they report. that means that there is a drag on reporting. cases can be difficult to

prosecute. it can be tough to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt when only two people are in the room when a crime occurs. it is clearly an area that, despite the progress made during the me too movement, and the notion we should believe women who come forward because they're subjecting themselves to this ridicule and this sort of second subjection of pain in these situations, despite that progress from me too, we still have a long way to go. >> former u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you very being with us. criminal defense attorney and former watergate prosecutor, john sale, thank you, as well. appreciate it. new video out of kyiv this morning shows ukraine air defense systems at work. "reuters" reports air-raid sirens echoed throughout ukraine this morning for more than three hours. russian missile strike on eastern ukraine injured over 30 people. the country's commander in chief says 15 of 18 launched missiles

were struck down around the country. including every missile directed at kyiv. it's the latest news out of a war preparing for its next chapter, with ukraine readying its forces for a possible counteroffensive. let's bring in right now editor in chief of "the atlantic," jeffrey goldberg, and chief staff writer at "the atlantic," anne applebaum. jeffrey, extraordinarily busy time, obviously, in ukraine. you have attacks on crimea over the weekend. you have the spring offensive reportedly coming up. you've got possibility of china stepping in, trying to strike some sort of peace deal, even though a lot of skepticism in the ukraine and the united states. also, the possibility of the pope having a peace mission. where do we stand as we're on the eve of the spring offensive? >> where we stand is that the

ukrainians, despite a lot of efforts, some straightforward, the pope's, some not so straightforward, the chinese, you have the ukrainians insisting, correctly in our view, that the goal of their offensive, the goal of their mission, the mission of their state right now is to liberate all of their territory. all the territory that was taken not only last year but the territory first seized by russia in its mini invasion in 2014. so the ukrainians, obviously led by the president himself, believe that the war will end when russia leaves ukrainian territory, and the war will really end, and this is sort of the argument that anne and i make in our "atlantic" piece that's out today, the war will truly end only when russia is convinced that it has lost, that it can't achieve anything else, and that putin decides that he

must cut his losses and bring back his forces. that's what the offensive is about. there are people who say in washington that the offensive is about taking a little bit of territory and putting the russians in a position where they have to negotiate, but my read at least, and i think anne might agree with this, my read is that the ukrainian leadership is very sincere when it says that the goal is to liberate ukraine. >> okay. let's read from the new piece, which is the cover story for the june issue of "the atlantic," looking at the liberation of ukraine. this is your piece, anne and jeffrey. you write, in part, although the war is not lost, it is also not won. kherson is free, but it is under constant attack. kyiv's restaurants are open, but refugees are not yet returned home. russia's winter offensive has petered out, but as of mid-april, it is unclear when ukraine's summer offensive will

begin. until it begins, rather until it ends, negotiations about the future of ukraine and its borders, ukraine's relationship to russia and to europe, the final status of the crimean peninsula, they cannot dpin either. right now, putin still seems to believe a long, drawn out war of attrition will eventually bring him back his empire. uniquely, the united states has the power to determine how and how quickly the war of attrition turns into something quite different. anne, play it out beyond this summer offensive, whenever it starts. it seems to have been a little delayed. my understanding is because the weather is still pretty wet over there. what ukraine looks like potentially after this, and then what it looks like two, three, four, five years down the line. is the international community really on board with defending whatever borders that might be and the cost that could entail? >> so this is really uniquely a moment when the military, the actual facts of the military

situation on the ground, are going to determine what happens over the next few years. if the ukrainians can take back their territory, if we're willing to support them to take back their territory, and i mean not just what was lost last year but also what was lost in 2014, then we could get to a moment where the war is really over. there are no leftover issues. there are no frozen conflicts. the russians agree among themselves that it was a mistake. they acknowledge that ukraine is an independent country, much say the way that france eventually acknowledged algeria as an independent country in the 1960s, or longer ago, the british acknowledged ireland was not part of great britain. and then the war is really over. the war will also have to end with ukraine as part of some kind of security arrangement. it probably won't be nato because of the requirement that every nato parliament has to vote positively. that might not be possible in the short term, but some kind of

security arrangement, whereby the borders are set. peace is declared. refugees can come home. people can invest in ukraine. ukraine can rebuild itself. ukraine can move on to joining the european union, which i've just been in europe and people are -- now, i think this mental shift, the idea that ukraine will be part of the eu, that it will be somehow integrated with the eu, is beginning to happen. so the most positive outcome, not just for ukraine but for europe and maybe beyond that, is ukraine wins the war, ends, and you have a peacetime integration. you mentioned the pope and china. i mean, it would be wonderful if an outsider would come in and convince the russians that it's time to withdraw. maybe the chinese have the power to do that, i don't know. but any other negotiation, any negotiation that pretends that there's, you know, righteousness

on both sides or there is something you can split halfway, or maybe it is okay to leave some ukrainian territory inside russia, this will be a recipe for more conflict down the road. it will give the russians the idea they can continue, that the illegal occupation of land can succeed. >> this is david ignatius in washington. just want to ask you what evidence you see as one of the very best analysts of this war, that ukraine can make maneuvered warfare work and put russian forces and russia's control of crimea, other territories it seized, put it at risk that would force what you're talking about, decide this isn't worth it. >> one of the strange things about the ukrainian army, as i think you already know, is it is simultaneously very high tech and very low tech. so ukrainians are using the most sophisticated military software that has ever been used.

i know you've written about it. we have a little bit about it in our piece, as well. they have drone workshops all over the country. again, they're putting together sophisticated technology from, sometimes, bits and pieces on what looks like glue and paint. you know, at the same time, they're operating almost like a partisan army. i mean, they're based in -- you know, their headquarters are in villages and suburbs. sometimes they have primitive equipment. they have this huge range of equipment. i mean, the defense minister ticked off to us this list of different countries who had given them guns. that does make it hard to know. they say that with the new training their troops are undergoing in germany and elsewhere, they're beginning to put together the different equipment that they have with the new software they have. they say that you're going to see them fighting differently over the summer. we'll see. >> jeffrey.

>> and -- >> go ahead, jeff. >> no, no, it was an interesting comment by the defense minister, who told us that one of the mispprehensions of the west early in the war was that the war represented a conflict between a large soviet army and a small soviet army. and what he said, and this has been born out in reality, is that we in the west did not take into account that ukraine had changed. that the ukrainian army, in its tactics, in its hierarchy, in everything, had changed. it's not just a large soviet army coming in and trouncing on a small soviet army. it is a very western army now that is defending ukraine. >> jeffrey, excuse me, i'm sorry. neither the u.s. military nor ukraine's strongest allies in western europe believe they will ever be able to drive every

russian soldier out of ukraine. they'll say that privately. they'll hint at it publicly. but that's what they believe. so the question is, is this scenario that you all have laid out, of total victory, is that even a possibility? >> it is very much a possibility. that's based on the ground assessment, and it is also based on the fact that nearly everyone was wrong and has been wrong in a continuing way about ukraine's capabilities. i go back to this comment of the defense minister. i mean, you remember what it was like in washington and february of last year, as russia is mobilizing. we assumed, what, two, three, four, five days before russia would take kyiv. the ukrainians have consistently

surprised the west in its -- in their capacity, not only to defend but take territory back. and to be creative and to have a learning curve. now, much of this depends on the west's willingness to provide the weapons, in quality and quantity, that the ukrainians need to take back more territory. yes, crimea would be very, very difficult, obviously. i don't -- no one knows for sure if ukraine could, by force of arms, take back all its territory, but we have consistently, consistently underestimated what ukraine is capable of doing. i would only think that that -- it is probably smart not to underestimate them at this point. >> anne, following up on that exact point, no doubt the west has underestimated ukraine to this point in the war. but there is chatter right now that there is growing skepticism as to how successful this spring

counteroffensive will be, whenever it does launch. there's a sense it is still at least a few weeks away. talk to us a little bit about -- let's say it doesn't go quite as well as last august, which was a stunning success. say the gains are more modest. how do you see that playing out not just in washington, but european capitals? will that make some of the allies blink a little bit and perhaps be more reluctant to give those weapons and aid that ukraine would need to keep this going? >> so i think, first of all, it is important to sayu ukraine theory of victory has to have some political acknowledgment that the war was a mistake. one of the ways to achieve it would be at least a threat in crimea, if not to occupy it. you're right, there is a -- it's noticed by everybody who does polling on ukraine, that

everywhere, support for ukraine goes up when ukraine is winning. support for ukraine goes down when it seems ukraine is losing. of course, you know, logically, it should be the other way around. but that's the truth. you're right, that a perception that they're losing or they're not winning or there's a stalemate would encourage people to force a cease-fire at least or begin some kind of negotiation. i mean, there are two problems with that. one of them is that russia also has to want to negotiate. as far as i know, through back channels, russia has, so far, refused to negotiate. so you'd have to have a way of convincing the russians to stop fighting. it's not just a matter of, you know, convincing ukrainians to go home. the second problem is that even if there were a cease-fire now, what would be the -- how do you prevent that from becoming and remaining a conflict that will be revived again in two years? anybody thinking about, you know, we're tired of this war,

we need to end up quickly, needs to think longer down the road. what is a -- what does partial occupation of ukraine look like? what of the atrocities committed in occupied territory? what of the mass murders, deported children, what about the concentration camps being set up there? you know, we're okay with tolerating that? how are we going to deal with the political fallout of that? i mean, it's more than just a question of kind of getting them to the negotiating table. i mean, there are conversations between russia, ukraine that go through intermediaries, mostly about prisoners, about, you know, grain and so on. it's not as if they're not speaking to each other. right now, either side sees that there is a point to stopping the fighting. >> all right. anne applebaum and jeffrey goldberg, thank you, both, so much. we'll be reading your cover story in the new issue of "the atlantic." greatly appreciate it. david ignatius, final thought on

what you've heard from anne and jeffrey? >> well, i do think these next few months are going to be decisive. if the ukrainians can demonstrate an ability to put russian forces at risk, to move far enough south that they're able to shell the bridge, for example, that links russia to crimea, put crimea very much in danger, i think that does change the balance of the war. may make russians rethink. one thing we haven't talked about, and i close with this, is the always-present danger of russian escalation. they don't -- they have a vote here. they can bring more weaponry, more savage weapons, ultimately up to tactical nuclear weapons, to save their position. i think that's the thing that worries people in the white house most as they think about this. what is the inflection point, the break point where the russians would go to a different level of warfare to save their

position? >> that's always been the balancing act. it continues to be the balancing act. all right. david ignatius, thank you so much. always love having you on the show. really appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," florida governor ron desantis didn't seem to make a favorable impression with some of britain's top business leaders. that's actually an understatement. we'll get to that new reporting. plus, the chairwoman of the rnc lays out her new strategy for how the party can tackle the hot button issue of abortion ahead of 2024. first, democratic governor ned lamont of connecticut is standing by. he is urging congress not to cut safety net programs amid the fight to raise the debt ceiling. we'll get to him when "morning joe" returns. i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... ...is clinically proven

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we passed a bill to address the problem. it is time now for the president to get in this game, get off the

sidelines, and let's start negotiating and figuring this out. not in june when we get to the midnight hour, but today. we have a lot of -- >> congressman. >> -- a time to get this done. >> the republicans are demanding hostage negotiations, where they will crash the full faith and credit of the united states. that would raise the rates that your viewers are paying on credit cards or student loans or mortgages. it'd throw our country into recession and hurt us globally. >> two bites that illustrate the current stalemate in washington over the debt ceiling, and joining us now, the democratic governor of connecticut, ned lamont. governor lamont, great to see you. let's just get your reaction, your perspective as a chief executive of one of our 50 states. how worried are you right now about the rhetoric here, and the fact the two sides are talking past each other as the deadline approaches? >> i think it's scary for governors. all that uncertainty, instability, we don't know what we can count on. are they going to start cutting back on our day care funding,

make it tougher for us to get people back to who, right now? thankfully, in connecticut, we've got a big $3.5 billion rainy day fund, just making sure we're prepared if washington can't get its act together. >> governor, the house republicans did pass a bill this week, sort of their budget proposal. talk to us, i'm sure you and your staff examined it. what impact would it have on your state if something like this were to become law? obviously, the senate stands as a barrier, but these are the priorities, what they're trying to get done. >> it'd be tougher to get people back to work without day care. snap benefits would cut back. with high inflation, especially when it comes to the grocery stores, making food a little less affordable for folks most in need. and, eventually, all that discretionary funding will start trickling out instead of what we expected. makes us revisit our budgets. >> governor, i see that you've

recently proposed cutting taxes in connecticut. just kind of tying this into the debt negotiations, if we're looking at a situation where the u.s. is running large deficits, i mean, is it possible in this environment to keep cutting taxes? aren't we going to have to raise revenue in order to finance american spending? >> well, connecticut is in a different position than the federal government. we've had a balanced budget, in fact, a surplus, for four straight years in a row. so i think the people of connecticut deserve a tax cut. it is a middle-class tax cut. it'll save the average homeowner $50, $60 a month. makes a difference. that's a very difficult place from where connecticut was, say, five, ten years ago. >> the negotiations up on capitol hill from other states ought to be looking at your example and finding out what you are doing. let's talk about abortion. you've suggested to businesses they can come to your state because, in connecticut, abortion is still legal.

how much -- we hear, hearing that in states that are restricting abortion, like in florida where ron desantis signed the six-week bill into law in the middle of the night, it could have a knock-on impact on businesses if they're looking at the red states and thinking, do we want to do business there? is it gang to translate into action, though, that you're going to start seeing some american businesses pull out of texas and florida and come to bluer states where abortion rules, where there are still abortion rights? >> i think so. katty, you know, used to be, look, i'm a progressive person. i can live in austin, texas. i can live in miami. even though i'm in a very red state that's restricting my rights, i feel more free in those towns. that's not the case anymore. they're restricting rights across the board in those states. i think that is good for connecticut. we're fighting for individual rights, fighting for your right to choose, fighting for teachers being able to teach what they want to teach, books you want to

read. we have a fair number of teachers coming to connecticut for that very same reason. >> governor, i'm curious, would -- maybe an option for congress and the president to consider would be to repeal some of the most regressive trump tax cuts so they don't have to slash social spending and social funding. that's led to extraordinary successes, like, for instance, the lowest childhood poverty rate in 50, 60 years. >> hey, joe, nice to see you. look, what they do down in washington, d.c., i think it makes a lot of sense to get back to the tax rates you had pre-trump. i think your budget was more balanced. you were able to make investments. you're not going to have this topsy-turvy that will impact the budget and make life hell for governors and the people we serve over the next six months until they get this debt cliff settled. i think it is unsettling for a

lot of us right now, and the president has a budget on the ground right now that moves towards balance slowly. >> governor, i want to ask you, i know you very well, and i love the state of connecticut very well. i love it. i followed the politics of connecticut for over the past 15 years or so, and it's been absolute chaos fiscally. there's been, i mean, just debt piled higher and higher. taxes going higher and higher. i'm curious, when you came in, you said, we have to take care of this budget meltdown. it was a complete fiscal meltdown. one of the reasons general electric and other companies left. but you said, we can't do it by taxing, by hiking taxes on everybody. so my question is, how have you gotten from there to where you are now, where you've got a surplus?

what lessons could other governors learn from you? >> you used to live in connecticut. all forgiven. come on back. we wanted an honestly balanced budget without games and without raising tax rates. i like to think that sent a signal, that this is a new day in connecticut. four years later, we've paid down about $8 billion in our pension debt. people have been putting that on the credit card for the previous 30 years. we got a long way to go, i'll be blunt about it, but we're making progress there. what you want to do is give the business community some certainty, some sense of direction, what the state is going to look like. a lot of people are moving to the state, and a lot of businesses are thinking about connecticut. >> i'll tell you from the beginning, too, there was such distrust between republicans and democrats. i heard from the very start from my republican friends in connecticut that you didn't demonize anybody.

you had an open door. that despite the fact we live in such a divided time, republicans and democrats sat down and you invited them all to sit around the table. how much of a difference does that make? >> makes a big difference. our last budget, which was in balance, we did that on a bipartisan basis with a lot of republican support. i'm very hopeful we're going to have a bipartisan budget this time around. that's a stark contrast to what you see in washington. republicans come to the table, give us your best ideas, but they have to be constructive ideas, something i can work off of. >> all right. connecticut governor ned lamont, as always, thank you so much for being here. great seeing you again. >> okay. happy birthday to mika tomorrow. >> nicely done. >> all right. will pass that along. coming up, we're digging into a story that seemed to go under the radar last week amid major media headlines.

buzzfeed shut down an organization that won a pulitzer prize two years ago. we'll be. >> joel:ed -- joined by the first editor in chief, and how media is the past and the future. that's next on "morning joe." t . like here. and here. and here. not so much here. if you've been diagnosed with chronic kidney disease farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in women and men, and low blood sugar. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may lead to death. a rare life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. and don't take it if you are on dialysis.

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i love npr. [ applause ] because they whisper into the mic like i do. but not everyone loves npr. elon musk tweeted that it should be defunded. well, the best way to make npr go away is for elon musk to buy it. >> lost in the chaos of high-profile news hosts being fired, the loss after a news site. buzzfeed news announced the

outlet was ending operations. it's part of a larger layoff across the company. let's bring in the founder editor of buzzfeed news who has since left to create a new website, ben smith. he's the author of "traffic, dilution in the billion dollar race to go viral." i love the title. what happened? best guess, and i know it is never easy to talk about, you know, people at a company you used to work for. but, still, everybody is going to want to know, what in the world happened to buzzfeed news? it went from being a really hot commodity, winning the pulitzer prize, to needing to be shut down. is it part of a bigger move in the new media landscape? >> yeah. obviously, it is something i'm really sad about. you know, we made all sorts of mistakes in the management of it, i would say.

but the biggest picture is that, you know, buzzfeed, like a lot of these companies, was totally yolked to the rise of facebook and grew really, really fast as social media grew. and as facebook, twitter, other sites have kind of shrunk and become less relevant, i think the companies that built themselves on their backs have really struggled. >> i want to get to your book, but i was fascinated by an item, and a lot of other people were, too, an item you wrote in semifore on the 24th of april. you asked, what year is it? consider the following, the drudge report is the biggest political website. peretti is focused on "huff post." matt and sullivan are sharing quick posts. washington's elite are reading

halperin's d.c. tips sheet. readers are interested in news directly to their inboxes with scoops and analysis, and old news giants, led by "the new york times," are profitably selling exclusive content. i mean, man, it's like 1999 all over again, isn't it? >> yeah. you should consider returning to capitol hill, i don't know. >> no, that's okay. >> yeah, it is a very strange moment for those of us who sort of came up on it, helped build this explosion in the 2010s, to sort of see it recede. i think we're all trying to figure out what's next. >> it's interesting. you read the beginning of "fool's rush in," and it is an extraordinary story about how aol was overvalued by old media. you read michael wolf's book "television is the new television." it says, yeah, everybody is trying to crack the code, but at the end of the day, what's old

is new. are we at that point yet again? >> you know, i think what you saw over the last, i guess, 15, 20 years, was this incredible challenge to the old media. you know, it came part out of politics, out of the iraq war, in particular. people feeling like it'd been discredited and there was this huge opening. now, as you suggest, a lot of these older institutions have changed a lot, absorbed a lot of the energy, the ideas, the ways of doing things from the internet, but it seems like, in some ways, they are stronger than people like me would have expected. when it comes to streaming, streaming is starting to look a lot like television. ads supported, sometimes live, and sometimes appointment viewing. i do think things are a lot more like they used to be than i think a lot of people would have expected. >> what are we going to find, those of us who are absolutely fascinated by how media moves back and forth, fascinated by the rises and the falls that happen so quickly these days?

what are we going to learn in "traffic"? >> i think the thing that was most interesting to me was to go back to this early digital made media scene progressive, young people who, most of all, thought they were building a progressive, new media. some ways, "huffington post" devoted to getting a democrat elected, and it culminated, we thought maybe, in the election of barack obama in 2008. now, you look at it, and it's, wow, where this really led was a different place. andrew breitbart, steve bannon, were hanging around the whole time in the early days. the place it cuminated was the election of donald trump. it was something totally different from, i think, what creators expected. >> congratulations on the book, it is here. >> thank you, john. >> can't wait to read it. talk to us about the idea of figuring out what goes viral,

what takes off. >> yeah. >> i know the book covers some of that. you know, whether it is political, left or, as you say, on the right, even if it is something that captures the imagination, how does -- what is the science behind it? >> i think, you know, the basic shift that peretti at buzzfeed was the first to crystallize is the way media was going to be distributed was no longer opening a website, turning on the tv, but see what your friends were sharing. when i was at "politico" years ago, i had sort of seen that start to happen on twitter. when jonah was looking for news at buzzfeed, that's why i was drawn to it. okay, it seemed that's how news was spreading. it seemed interesting and harmless at the time. this is a great way to pass scoops around, great way to pass around fun memes, you know, interesting jokes, a dress that could be gold and white or blue and black and argue about it.

certainly, i didn't see the extent to which really toxic politics would be the thing people would want to share and talk about most. i mean, there was a theory in thorly -- early internet that the shares stories would have to be positive because people would be embarrassed to be their worst selves, to yell at each other in public. that did not turn out to be the case. >> we all got that wrong. >> yeah. >> ben, it's katty. >> hi. >> hi. let's take that forward a bit. what -- at some point, do we get fed up of the toxic stuff? if there is a reversion, if old becomes new again, what is it to? is it to the big media organizations? is there space at all for a more objective news standard taking hold, really old is new again? i can't believe that, in the long run, we really want toxic in our lives forever, do we? >> no. i think what you're seeing from, you know, consumers and also

from facebook, which basically shoved news, which had been this massive distribution engine, just pushed news out, yes, is as you say, people being really sick of that kind of content, that kind of politics. you know, i think that the notion that you just go back is probably an illusion, and everybody is sort of feeling their way toward what's next. i mean, i do think one thing you see is an attachment to -- as consumers, we're totally overwhelmed, don't know what to trust, are trying to find a way out. part of it is finding individual people, journalist who is can talk in a transparent way about what they know, what they think, and speak directly to readers in a way that is less -- is not the way old newspapers worked. that's what we're trying to do. but i think it is this strange moment, when readers, viewers are unhappy with what they're

doing and are trying to figure out what the next thing is. we all are. >> you know, it's a fascinating thing, ben. here, we find ourselves in a position, if you look at the podcast list of top 50 or top whatever, you have so many in the top whatever of people sending themselves on fire every day it seems politically to try to draw more listeners. what's at the top? "the daily," which, again, people can debate is "the new york times" center, left of center, far left, whatever, they can have the debate, but it is an effort by "the new york times" to give people the news without a whole lot of the heat. as you've said before, "the new york times," i mean, "the new york times" is just on fire. they every doing extraordinarily well right now so in the midst of this chaos here you have the bedrock institution and of course "the daily" is "new york

times," as well, but an institution that keeps getting stronger. you look at the magazines that are doing well, "the economist" that are doing well, also. it is people who are attempting in their minds again -- we can have ideological debates but people trying to deliver the news straight as they see it. >> it is a splintered landscape. joe rogan very popular. nobody getting more than 5% of the market. and hundreds with much smaller audiences and i think consumers sick of the way is to go to a central place where everybody is screaming and looking for smaller conversations which has its own issues but much like

media used to be and probably more comfortable for people in the long term. >> the book is title "traffic." ben smith, thank you so much for coming by and congratulations on the book. >> thank you, joe. all right. a live report from paris in may day demonstrations and democrats are calling on chief justice roberts to answer more questions about things guiding the supreme court. the chair of the panel senator dick durbin will join us at the top of the hour. "morning joe" will be right back. (whistles) yeek. not cryin', are ya? let's tighten that. (fabric ripping) ooh. - wait, wh- wh- what was that? - huh? what, that? no, don't worry about that. here we go. - asking the right question can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this? - what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - yeehaw! - do you have a question?

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hand. a fan snagged a foul ball hit into the second deck down the first base line. there you go. lemire? what a perfect dad, right? i'm sure you did that all the time when your kids were babies. >> yes. i would like to say i did something similar. unfazed. one -- bang. got it. showed it off. spectacular stuff. perfect sunday afternoon. >> juggling the beer and the baby. maybe he needed the beer to deal with the baby. >> possibly so. you did that sports story wonderfully. >> right. senator durbin is standing by and joining the conversation next on "morning joe." [♪♪] if you have diabetes, it's important to have confidence in the nutritional drink you choose. try boost glucose control®.

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everybody's got some scandals. despite the challenging times we live in i see people that are hard working, many of you i don't think you should be working that hard. we should be inspired by the events in france. they rioted when the retirement age went up two years to 64. they rioted! in america we have an 80-year-old begging us for four more years of work! begging. begging. let me finish the job. that's not a campaign slogan. that's a plea. let me finish. let me finish. >> maybe the french know a thing or two. cracking jokes on president biden's age as the 80-year-old

seeks a second term and protests in france continuing today. a live report from paris coming up in a moment. welcome back to "morning joe." it is monday, may the 1st. 8:00 a.m. on the west coast. we begin with ro that mcdaniel weighing in on the party strategy for the issue of abortion. take a look. >> the biggest takeaway we're taking is independence did not break the way which has to happen if we win in 2024 which usually causes that red wave and abortion was a key issue in states like michigan and pennsylvania. you have to address this head on. democrats spent $360 million on this. many candidates refuse to talk about this. we can talk about the economy and ignore the big issue and they can't. >> then you have nikki haley saying i have a plan and not

saying what the plan is and from south carolina saying this is getting us into trouble and losing us races around the country. it is the big issue for them but they don't know how to talk about it. >> looms certainly as the biggest issue of the 2022 campaign and looms like it may again next year. joining us is senate majority whip dick durbin. senator, great to see you. when you talk to constituents seeing races up and down the ballot, wisconsin supreme court race, there seems to be energy on the democratic side as we start to prepare for an election year and seems like abortion looms large. >> we had a hearing last week on this dobbs. we had a witness last week from teixeira. she spelled out the case.

trying to get pregnant. they were working on it. they thought they were close and then complications. she set three days in the icu in teixeira and hoped they were compelled to save her life why the testimonies are appearing all over the united states. we have going into the election cycle an advantage on that issue. people believe that women ought to have the right to choose. they believe in gun safety. they believe we should do something about the climate. young people especially. they also believe coming down to it that the bottom line is a nation that's not in election denial. that's just unacceptable. here we have a poster child for that donald trump saying i want to be president again. you say how can the republican

party reverse itself and find some grip and some footage for the future when this is so overwhelming at four levels. >> joe, the republican party embraced the extremism. we saw donald trump hug a january 6 convict today and opened the show not just talking about abortion but another mass shooting in texas. >> senator, you are in a diverse state. it is a blue state usually. in presidential elections. there are a lot of red parts of illinois. you hear from different people. can you explain to americans? when you talk about american democracy we all, people who love america and western democracy have to win that. but it may not be total victory on guns but we have to be

reasonable and pass legislation whether it is 90% of americans support background checks. same thing with abortion. you have one side that says all or nothing. the other side says all or nothing. americans are where europeans are. 15, 16, 17 weeks which would be offensive to both sides but is there any way to get to a point where we balance both sides and get to a striking point to come to a national con sense sus on the issues that divide us so much? >> not based on the current composition in congress. the republicans control of the house makes it unlikely to consider this. the necessity for 60 votes in the senate make it difficult with a 41-49 edge when everyone

is present. we look when states say you can make the decision to go forward with an abortion in the first six weeks that doesn't reflect the reality of the human condition. many women wouldn't know whether they were pregnant. and then the horror storys. the 10-year-olds who have been raped and trying to find a way to go forward with the lives and stopped by the state laws. dobbs is an extreme decision. does not make it simple. it remind us that the vagaries of the human condition can't be predicted by legislatures. that's why the testimony last week is so important. coming to guns, highland park, illinois, is still fresh in the minds when the man got on the roof of a building with an ar-15 and multiple ammunition cartridge and fired off 83

rounds in 60 secs. that is unacceptable. to think that is going forward and the republicans justify it. >> no. there are of course on all issues ebbs and flows. when we worked together there was a move toward a pro-gun position and you could feel that tide coming in. now at least i feel it going out. when i talk to republicans and people who voted republican the entire life, talk about highland park, newtown, parkland, uvalde, nashville, vegas and the country music concert, the texas church shot up, the synagogue in pennsylvania. the horrors come at us faster

and faster. are you starting to sense any change in the hearts, in the words, in the political feelings of the republicans that you work with every day on the issue of guns? could there be the passage of universal background checks that 90% of americans like? can we get there soon? we'll get there one day. it is inevitable. how long will it take republicans to get us where america wants to be? >> the bloodshed and the incidents coming every day throughout the year are uniquely american and facing this problem like no other country on earth. to think that people rationalize that this has to do with the second amendment and the supreme court in the brilliant decision basically saying we look for

historic precedent. to take the guns from someone convicted of domestic violence in the 19th century what your press dentd is. reaching that extreme we have allowed the constitutional and political arguments to be twisted to a point where most americans say i want to make sure the kids come home from school. i think the basics are on the side of people wanting a rational approach. hats off for cornyn and murphy for what they did last year. it showed some bipartisanship. we need more. >> senator, can we talk about the debt ceiling? the ball seems to be a little bit in democrats' court whether the white house is going to negotiate with republicans after they pass the bill. how do you get across to the american people what's in the republican package in a way to

try to insulate democrats from any political fallout that might come from looking like the people that aren't negotiating? there's experience there that joe biden has but is it that you try to get out this is what would happen to veterans and student debt relief and applicants for food stamps? >> the message i think is very basic. driving to the station here this morning in new york it is a case of the dog that didn't bark. we drove past the first republic office. there's no line of depositors. why? the regulators spent $13 billion to stabilize that bank for fear of failure and the american economy. now the debt ceiling issue. we are putting at risk a $23

trillion economy, american economy over the negotiation of a budget for the next year. that is plain wrong. businesses will suffer. jobs will be lost. if a bank is a worry spot this is certainly much larger. my basic premise and answer to those that say why is kevin mccarthy doing this and risking it? it is over one. he is willing to cut the number of law enforcement officials, cut money for food for children and down the line to preserve the trump tax cuts for the wealthiest people in america. i think that that's irresponsible. >> senator, on friday i interviewed president macron about climate change. the numbers are astounding that we talked about. 143-year history of recording

temperatures on this earth the hottest 8 years have been the last 8 years on record. the hottest ten years have all been since 2010. this is i think anybody that studied this and any scientist that studied this understands that we talk about the guns. it is just not sustainable. what does the united states need to do? i know we have made some gains over the past 15 years or so. how do we get together with china, the number one greenhouse gas emitter on the globe? they are number one. we are number two. how do we work together to bring down carbon emissions? >> that's certainly a valid point to make, joe. i spent the weekend with my grand kids in new york and saw a

hellacious rainstorm. we see extreme weather across the united states. used to be the tornado warnings sounded off in the summer. now it's 12 months of the year. the question is whether we have the will, the political will to move forward. it is a key issue of the young voters. democrats have a strong answer. we need to show results with international agreements, leadership from the white house and a congressional effort that shows we're serious. the inflation reduction act created incentives to put solar panels on the home. my wife and i did that in

illinois. i think that is a step in the right direction. a small step. it can make a difference. >> tomorrow the senate judiciary committee is holding a hearing on the supreme court ethics reform. about not reporting gifts, accepting things they perhaps shouldn't have. the senate has questions. they want chief justice roberts to answer. he is declining to apier tomorrow. what are the questions? >> people suggested witnesses before the committee. i felt the responsible thing to do is to appeal to the chief justices. 92 justices have testified before congressional committees since 1960. he declined. i'm disappointed that he did. i think we'll produce a code of

ethics. several on the table. two have a proposal moving forward. chris murphy with guns has a similar thing in ethics. sheldon whitehouse chair it is subcommittee. i think we can move forward epa say to the supreme court, they should not have the lowest standard of ethics in the federal government. >> if you look at the polls, the credibility of the supreme court is at record lows. usually whenever you talk about expanding the united states supreme court the same way it was expanded the beginning of the republic. lincoln did it. people talk about how it would undermine the supreme court. the supreme court is most politicized and certainly in my

lifetime. you have people running out, laughing, making jokes about -- at federalist society meetings. taking victory laps over supreme court ruling on abortion. a guy who i think he got over a billion dollars. again, just to shape the direction of the supreme court and the coming years. where's the legitimacy in that? what do we do to bring legitimacy back to the supreme court when it is bought and paid for by a single organization? >> joe, that really is a valid question. i'm hearing it more and more. the majority on the supreme court reflects an organization. the federalist society created to capture the court system and did too good a job from my point of view.

they controlled the supreme court or at least did in the nomination process. that's why i appeal to chief justice roberts. he will be identified with the court in history and coming down with the citizens united decision and the gun safety and the dobbs' decision shows me they are off on an extreme tangent. i thought he would try to bring back to the center on ethics. the integrity of the court and the reputation is at stake and it is in perilous situation. to have a court that is credible and has integrity we need different leadership and clarence thomas signaling where to go is fair warning to us to take this seriously. >> the chief justice said he is an institutionalist. i am an institutionalist. i believe the supreme court stood in the gap time and time

again. and it breaks my heart to see this raw plitization of it. and its approval numbers collapsing. thank you for being with us. dick durbin of illinois, as always, great honor to have you here. >> thank you. protesters are taking to the streets in france calling for salary increases and the president to drop the plan to raise the retirement age. that won't happen. he raised the retirement age from 62 to 64. and these rioters have just gone completely nuts in the streets of paris and across the country because he's trying to raise they should retirement age or has now to 64. let's go to a rainy paris with

richard engel. so sorry to have you outside in the weather. what's the latest? >> reporter: thap thanks a lot! there were many, many more people here and heard the thunder, lightning and clouds rolled in and the demonstrators are under trees. i'll get wet here. what is happening is a million people across the country in paris and nationwide are taking to the streets today because of the retirement age. the retirement age two weeks ago changed. used to be 62. president macron forced it through in a controversial move approved by france's equivalent to the supreme court. it is the lowest across europe.

it is not implemented. they are trying to stay dry and not implement the law. it is expected july 14th macron will announce a date when it will be implemented. what they are trying to do is cause chaos in the streets. disrupt life in this country and they do have quite a few ways of doing that. the yuxs are behind them. the unions, particularly the power union is talking about cutting off electricity to the canne film festival in two weeks, the french open and cutting access to construction sides for the remains olympic venues that need to be finished before the 2024 olympic games

and air traffic controllers are on strike. maybe this is letting up a little bit. we'll see. >> zoom out and kind of go to the top on this. i'm sure americans are thinking what's the beef? 64 sounds like an incredibly young age to retire. what does it say about the french sense of relationship to work that they are prepared to bring the country to a stand still over two year's worth of time? >> reporter: so what they fear is that this is a slippery slope. in france there is a national philosophy, mantra about the work/life balance and they fear that that work/life balance is at risk. if they give in they will be workinging until the end of days and machines to a system and they want to prevent that and

they think there's enough wealth in this country that they should pay so that the burden isn't passed on to working people in this country. but that work/life balance and almost sacred position in french society is what people here are concerned about losing. >> all right. nbc's richard engel, the sun is coming out! all right. good for you. >> reporter: yeah. little bit. not a problem. until next time. >> thank you. we greatly appreciate it. you know what i will say here. in 2009 when "newsweek" with a cover saying we are all socialism now. you said you americans would be

terrible socialists. the story paints it because the more i read about longevity it says the same thing. never retire. keep the mind active. keep moving forward. it is -- that is an american mindset. completely different in france. >> yeah. i'm not sure you would make the best of french men. you know? it is a very different attitude with a sense in france that you work but you work to live. living is retirement. they embrace the idea of what happens after 62 or what will now be 64 and the pinnacle of life. it is an important part of the life. they travel, involved in the communities. active but not working. they don't hold work on the pedestal the way that this country does and increasingly

the way that the united kingdom does. that's why they are prepared to go out in the rain in the pouring rain to bring the country to a stand still because it is about more than two years but an attitude to life an ento work that is quintessentially not an american attitude. >> yeah. no, no, no. not an american attitude. increasingly not a british attitude or in china. in china they talk about how people there liver to work and not just because going to the gulags but an intensity of people working there. jonathan lemire, a group of people in america that decided to retire early is the new york yankees. i think they said viva le france. they had a miserable run this week.

i hate to see it. i hate to talk about it. it is just the reality. >> yeah. sticking to the facts. not a personal bias on this. the yankees have lost 6 of the last 8. outscored by 1,000 runs during that stretch. judge is hurt. they have fallen to 15-14. one game over .500. mind you the exact same record as are boston red sox. a little over .500. trying to get by day after day. we have not seen that often in the last 20 years. both at the bottom. >> the red sox? they're about .500. but they are fun. >> they are. no matter what barnacle said. >> the little engine that could. i think i can. i think i can. we have a lot of news ahead this

morning. of course, grim news from texas and the manhunt on the gunman accused of shooting five neighbors in texas. authorities say they have no solid leads as to where the suspect could be right now. plus "the washington post" david ignacius walks us through the state of play in ukraine. are we reaching a climax on that war? you are watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> tech: when you have auto glass damage, trust safelite.

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there's a manhunt in texas for a suspect accused of killing five neighboring including a 9-year-old boy outside houston. investigators say the gunman was angry that the neighbors asked him to stop shooting his assault style rifle in the yard late friday night keeping an infant awake. minutes later he went into the neighbor's home and fired as many as 15 rounds.

the sheriff says all of the victims were slot in the head. including two women who were in the bedroom trying to shield young children. on saturday searchers found the suspect's rifle, cell phone and some clothing before dogs lost the trail but the sheriff says the suspect might still be armed with a handgun. local, state and federal authorities are searches for the gunman but have zero leads as to where he could be. they hope a $80,000 reward brings in tips to lead to the arrest. monday morning. this story is so grim. he was shooting his rifle and all they said is, dude, we have a baby trying to sleep. please give us a break and stop in the yard. >> think about the last few weeks in america.

people shot to death knocking on the wrong door, pulled into the wrong driveway, because they accidentally stepped in the wrong car and then asked a neighbor to stop shooting the assault rifle in the middle of the night keeping the baby up. that is where we are in america. republican governor of texas contributed $50,000 of that $80,000 reward but seemed to find the need to describe the victims of illegal immigrants. we'll note that at least one of them was a permanent resident of the united states. the suspect appears illegal and found the need to say that the victims, five victims, illegal immigrants to the united states. talk to us about where the republican party stands on the

twin issues of guns and immigration. >> that's an extraordinary moment. this cried out for compassion for some leadership, of course. we got neither of those. look. the republican party is as paralyzed. allowed itself to be held hostage to the nra. this is not new. what's amazing is how deeply invested they are in the their tiff that an armed society is a polite society. well regulated militia. more guns means less crime. think about the stories that you just told. seeing in this country is a country overrun by guns in which people distrust one another and have the quote/unquote thought

leaders ginning up that disdain. we have shootouts in parking lots, driveways, porches. i'm afraid the nation or there's the republican party is numb for too long about all of this. >> yeah. and, david, first of all, it is just -- i can't ever remember a -- any leader in the united states trying to somehow mitigate the pain of an 8-year-old, 9-year-old being shot in the head and other people and identifying the status. feeling the need to say these were illegal immigrants that got shot and killed. that's the first thing. there's a callousness to it. like sending illegal immigrants

up to washington, d.c. on christmas eve and putting them outside the naval observatory as they freeze getting off the bus. on the gun issue, too, callousness. a cheerleader in the wrong car is shot. a young driver drives into the wrong driveway. a young man knocks on a door. wrong door. looking for twin brothers. he gets shot twice. this is a country out of control in gun violence. >> it is. you can't look at the headlines and not feel precisely that. the question for me is when people say we can't live like this anymore. can't do it. and begin to break all the political certainties and

challenge the gun lobby. nothing can be done at the federal level with rebellion against the way we live now. the sense that this is a problem that can't be fixed. goes on year after year. numbers every week. we get up and hear about a new shooting. one of my children is a teacher. dealing with preparations for mass shootings at the school. every school in america has to do now. simply not a way to live. it is not viable. what the break point is, what it looks like i can't say. any problem like this i think a good leader would be defined by the ability to break through this sense of blockage and speak to the country about what everybody feels. we can't live this way. you don't see that person.

>> charlie sykes, seems like a matter of time. 75% of americans supporting red flag laws nationwide. americans supporting one gun safety law after another. gun owners. and as david said it is not like the tragedies are going to slow down. republicans know they will continue. they will continue in schools, in churches, in synagogues, in country music festivals, in middle america, on the coast. this is inevitable. the question is, you know, to paraphrase john kerry, who will be the last school child to have to die because republicans in state legislatures and in congress won't step up and do

what they know they have to do and what the american people want them this to do? >> yet, joe, we have members of congress that show up with ar-15 pins, who put out christmas cards where they pose with the family with weapons of mass destruction in schools. look. i have to tell you. going back to 2012, if what happened in newtown, connecticut, did not break the country, did not shock the country into action i don't know what would. i remember the debate and went back into the doom loop. the question is, what will it take? how many school shootings? how many have we had? how many weeks have we started with this conversation? this is what happens when you have a paralysis.

david made a good point. is there a leader to look the american people in the eye to say we cannot continue to live like this? people are trying but maybe that message can't be delivered anymore. maybe this is the american carnage that we have chosen but the political indifference is breath taking. i don't know if my microphone is on but when you read that tweet from governor abbott i blurted out, what? i hadn't seen that before. that he said five illegal immigrants. think about the insensitivity. rather than talking about the family caring for the children, a 9-year-old boy, the basic humanity he felt the need to label them in the most die visive way we can.

we know the politics of governor ab not and texas legislature. takes a one more data point of the cruelty, the brutality. i'm not telling you anything when i say the cruelty is the point and felt the need to insert that line in that moment reminds us of that. president biden gets the last laugh at the white house correspondents' association dinner. more of the best moments straight ahead on "morning joe." >> i want everybody to have fun tonight. but please be safe. if you find yourself confused, either drunk or marjory taylor greene -- ♪ feels more easy. ♪ ♪ my doc and i agreed. ♪ ♪ i pick the time. ♪

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ukraine-russian war. the massive drone strike in crimea. i heard republicans fretting. trumpists fretting about riding in to say the day to bring peace to the region. how horrible peace to the region in their eyes. if it -- if the russians use china as a way to back out. and then, of course, the vatican. word is that the vatican is starting to consider secret talks, trying to bring peace to the region. what is the state of play right now in ukraine and russia? >> the simplest way to put it is preparation for the battlefield what's ahead and the diplomatic activity on the sidelines. you are seeing with ukrainian attacks, the fuel depot in

crimea, other movements that they are making, the beginnings of the offensive that's coming. ukraine has a lot riding on the ability to move russian forces back. to use the armored vehicles, additional weapons that we and the europes have been giving them to change the lines over the next few months. russians will fight back with everything they have. the russian winter offensive focused on one little place at the edge of donetsk failed to make more than a few hundred yards typically in a week. a sign that the russians are so focused they don't achieve the breakthroughs they want. anybody that tells you that they know what is coming from the ukrainians are living with the

commander or lying. i think my only concern with growing desire for peace, the ukrainians will have to make significant progress for the world to say, okay, let's sign up for another year of this after the offensive happens. >> yeah. we'll see. a lot riding on this spring offensive. no doubt. before the news, charlie, i got to bring this up. it is just still astounding to me, we were flipping through channels and came across a certain news channel, a certain channel, and there was a former republican speaker there. i don't want to make this too personal but the first name is newt about how we are china's lapdog basically and led around by china and so pathetic.

it is -- follows up on what i have been talking about and you have been talking about. it is astounding how anti-american the people are. run down the united states of america saying how weak the united states of america is when i can tell you! going around the world, talking to world leaders, nobody is going we wish you guys would lead. you are too aggressive in asia. too confrontational with china. too aggressive in the middle east. too aggressive in -- all of the -- all of the complaints about the united states across the globe are that we are too powerful, the military, the dollar is too powerful. running over even allies.

that we are stronger than we have ever been. that is what the friends and enemies are saying and yet you listen to the republicans, these trump republicans. they tear down the united states of america all the time. and they want to do it, it is a free country. they are, of course, the people that said, america, love it or leave it in the '60s and '70s. as i said, what's the endgame for them? do they think americans will vote far political movement that hates on america and the military every day? >> apparently they do. let's go there. remember within the last year that ted cruz putting out putting out internet memes comparing the weak american military with the manly, macho russian military. remember all that? why can't we be more like the

russians? and think about what the leading republican candidate for president does every time he is asked about the world situation, he talks about how weak america is, how much he disdains our allies and how much he admires the authoritarian leaders of the rest of the world. >> he also says the gravest threat to western civilization is not china, not russia. that the united states of america that has fed and freed more people than any other country in the history of this planet is somehow the greatest threat. i don't see the end game here politically. >> republicans saying that democrats are weak, that's kind of old. what we're seeing now is this idea that america is really not that exceptional anymore. this, i think, is mind boggling,

the way in which the republicans under trump have pivoted to, you know, we're not necessarily any better than putin. we kill people as well, we're not necessarily a force for good in the world. it is this admiration of our enemies that is without precedent. i think in american political history, coming from the right especially -- >> it's weird. >> it is weird. you not only have them invested in this idea that we are weak and our enemies are strong, but that somehow our enemies were top shelf, brilliant people in the world, unlike our own leaders. again, this is extraordinary. the question is whether or not voters are going to see through this contempt and disdain not just for america, but for american values. in order for america to be

great, we have to project these democratic values. those are under siege as well. it is an extraordinary circumstance. the rest of the world has to be watching the clock and wondering. you know when joe biden said america is back and he was asked for how long, that question is still hanging out there. coming up, what might make president biden unelectable. une.

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coming up, andrew ross sorkin joins us with today's breaking news on the economy, the collapse of another american bank. collapse of another americn bank what are folks 60 and older up to these days?

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no. i'm serious. you all know it better than i do. but still it is absolutely consequential and essential. after all, i believe in the first amendment, not just because my good friend jimmy madison wrote it. [ laughter ] >> you might think i don't like rupert murdoch. that's simply not true. how could i dislike a guy who makes me look like harry styles? call me old. i call it being seasoned. you say i'm ancient. i say i'm wise. you say i'm over the hill. i'm going to turn this over to roy. roy, the podium is yours. i'm going to be fine with your

jokes, but i'm not sure about dark brandon. >> happy to be here. real quick, mr. president, i think you left some of your classified documents up here. i'll put them in a safe place. he don't know where to keep them. >> welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. we have a lot to get to this hour. ron desantis' feud with disney may actually cost him money. plus, the markets are reacting to the failure of another american bank. jonathan lemire, first, how did grandpa do with the jokes? we had a harry styles joke,

about the "new york times" pitch bot twitter account, dark brandon, internet memes. i don't know. was that all him, or did he have pretty good writers? >> oh, he had writers, but every president does. he delivered them well. i was in the room for that saturday night. he was pretty self-deprecating about his age. it was in good humor. also, the night was a little different than usual. certainly there was some humor there, but the focus was so much on the dangers that reporters face overseas and particularly the "wall street journal" reporter being held in a russian president. the president was there. he met with the family privately at the dinner. he spoke passionately about the need to get him home and protect

journalists overseas. usually presidents at that dinner open with the jokes and end with the serious stuff. he did it the other way. he opened with the serious, but needed the transition to get to the humor. and the joke about the first amendment and his old friend jimmy madison gave the audience permission to leave. white house aides were very pleased with how yesterday went. we hope he'll start taking more questions from us. he joked he might. >> yeah. he won't. >> no chance. >> mika and i have been neutral on this event every year and haven't gone in quite some time. but i will say, if this event can be used to talk about reporters who are imprisoned,

who are captured, evan's case in particular with the "wall street journal" and to shine a bright light on something like that is extraordinarily important. >> we should all be keeping evan's situation in our minds. i had a conversation with somebody from the white house just last week. it's pretty evident there's no real clear plan for getting him out. there is no clear route to what happens in this situation for evan. so all the more need for us to keep him in the public eye, all the more need for us to keep talking about him. >> let's start with the news. unfortunately, the tragic news out of texas. >> yeah. it's monday and we all wish we weren't starting this week this

way. we begin in texas, where this morning there is an all-out manhunt for a man suspected of killing five in an execution-style killing. a neighbor asked the now fugitive to stop shooting his gun outside because the noise was keeping a baby awake. priscilla thompson has the latest. >> we have zero leads. >> reporter: the search for a man accused of killing five of his neighbors, including a 9-year-old child, is growing more urgent by the minute. >> you've got a guy who just shot five people in the head execution style. >> reporter: authorities are offering an $80,000 award for information leading to the arrest of the suspect. >> we're asking everyone for

your help until we can bring this suspect or this monster to justice. >> reporter: the manhunt began late friday after police say a neighbor allegedly asked the suspect to stop firing his ar-15 rifle outside because they were trying to put a baby to sleep. moments later, a massacre unfolded. >> this man walks out of his residence with a loaded ar-15, walk up into that man's house and start shooting. >> five people were killed, including 9-year-old daniel guzman and his mother sonya. >> my heart is with this 8-year-old little boy. i don't care if he was here legally. i don't care if he was here illegally. he was in my county. >> reporter: his father returned to the scene next day, devastated and heartbroken. now telling nbc news his son

died because he was trying to protect his mom, saying that the child saw her fall and ran toward her. three other children were also found at the scene, covered in blood, but alive. >> there was two females in the bedroom laying on top of juvenile children, in my opinion, to keep the children safe. >> reporter: the community gathering to mourn, but still on edge. do you believe he'll be caught? >> that's nbc's priscilla thompson with that report. let's bring in john heilemann. we saw the humanity of that sheriff, holding back tears as he talked about the young boy who was slaughtered along with his mother. yet the governor of texas decides what he's going to do in statements, in tweets, is underline the fact that they're

illegal immigrants, not human beings, not victims, not yet the latest in a long line of tragic victims, but instead underlines every chance he gets that they were illegal immigrants. the callousness, the inhumanity of it all really is breathtaking. >> it is, joe. i saw that tweet. i obviously share that same sentiment that you were talking about this morning. it's not surprising coming from governor abbott. that has been his way when dealing with the question of illegal immigration in texas and the political capital he's derived from it. i find it almost as breathtaking and maybe even more depressing, the fact that a governor who has repeat repeatly used immigrants as

political props to foster the resentment toward undocumented workers in the state of texas, that he gets rewarded for it over and over again. there's no gubernatorial race in the country that was more clear on the question of guns, for instance, than the rematch last fall between beto o'rourke and greg abbott. he won 53-44% in that reelection. as breathtaking as the cruelty of the way he's highlighting that issue and the political hay he's making out of it is the fact that he gets rewarded for it time and time again. it's incredibly depressing that you can being rewarded for that attitude and behaviors and cruelty in a state as big and

important in america as texas. >> texas is certainly a state that's awash in guns. we are a nation awash in guns. when you look at the ten years, this is so important for people because we've talked about guns for a very long time in this country and had the debate, especially since 1968, the year of all the assassinations. just in the ten years since sandy hook, the number of homicides by guns, murders by guns, violent deaths have exploded, absolutely exploded to the point now where guns are the number one cause of death for our young children. just look over the past several weeks. you've had a young man who was shot for going to the wrong door, trying to get his twin brothers. you had a cheerleader shot for walking into the wrong car in a

parking lot. you had a young woman shot in the back as she was driving out of somebody's driveway because she went into the wrong driveway. you have this happening. incidences of road rage that happen so often that we don't even report on them. people getting guns when they're angry because they're cut off. when i keep saying it's inevitable that we're going to pass sweeping gun safety legislation, it's not because i have any insight. i just know at some point americans are going to stop putting up with children being slaughtered this way. the question is, when? >> i'm getting bored of myself saying on this program this does not happen in other countries. other countries have the same problems. the difference is you don't get people shooting up a whole

household and family with a gun because they happen to have one. people are not dying because of these kinds of normal human interactions that happen all over the world. it's just in other countries people are not being killed because of them. let's talk about ron desantis. his trip to the united kingdom appears to have fallen a little flat. the florida governor was in england casting off his four-country trade mission trip. some described the republican as, quote, horrendous and low wattage. according to politico, one british businessman said desantis looked bored and his message wasn't presidential. another said, quote, nobody in the room was left thinking this man's going places. it felt a bit like watching a state level politician. desantis's international trip was officially promoted as an attempt to build florida's

economic relationships with the u.k., israel, south korea and japan. it's seen by many as the chance for the governor to present himself as a leader on the world stage. meanwhile, his feud with disney may be costing him with his own voters. in celebration, a planned community developed by disney next to walt disney world, some residents say they don't understand the feud and it's now causing them to rethink their support for the governor. they are concerned about whether they will end up paying a higher cost of living, especially after desantis threatened to hike utility costs on disney aligned properties. disney no longer controls celebration, but it is still involved, including in the utilities that service the town. the area has about 16,000 residents and has become politically competitive in years. the community broke for desantis

in 2018 but it backed trump in 2016 and joe biden in 2020. between the number of 80,000 people in florida who work for disney and all of the businesses that depend on disney and now these residents of celebration who don't like the idea that their cost of living could go up, i'm struggling to see the political upside for ron desantis in this fight. >> you add to that the number of floridians who love disney, who get a yearly pass who live in central or south or north florida and go to disney repeatedly. we know people around here who do that, who just absolutely love it. i've got to say, though, talking about ron desantis, that comment that he looked bored. we've heard that from republican

activists when he goes to talk to him. we've heard it from contributes who say he's downright rude to them. we've heard it from people who have served with him in congress, saying that he was distant and strange and rude. one member of the committee sat next to him for two years and said ron desantis never said a word to him. it's just the more we hear, the more we find out that's just who he is. peggy noonan had a great quote in her column this weekend where she talked to a florida politico who said, ron desantis' biggest problem is not that we don't like him. it's that we know he doesn't like us. that's obviously the wrong profession to be in if you want to be president and you don't like people. >> yeah.

you know, the presidency, joe, and campaigning for the presidency is not a job that requires people skills. you can be isolated. you can spend time with no human beings. you don't have to do retail politics or go to iowa, new hampshire or south carolina and project any warmth with human beings. you can be distant and aloof consistently. there's a long history of successful presidential candidates who have those personality traits. let's make that list. oh, right, there is no one on that list who falls in that category. if you think about the recent history of supposed highly touted challengers to a front runner, most recently you have to think about somebody like barack obama who ran in 2018. hillary clinton was the dominant

front runner. he was the outsider candidate. he staged over the course of 2006 and 2007 a sort of pre-candidacy. it impressed absolutely everyone across the idealogical spectrum. immaculately orchestrated and raised a ton of money in that contest for other democrats, racking up chips across the country so when he announced in february 2007, he was not the front runner, but he was seen as a credible front runner out of the gate with hillary clinton. have you ever seen a short of shadow candidacy, a run-up to an announcement that had gone worse for an ostensible leading challenger to a front runner in your lifetime?

this time that desantis released his book up through this foreign trip has been an unmitigated disaster for ron desantis' prospects if he ever had a chance of taking on donald trump, of consolidating the republican party. boy, he has really blown it over the course of the last two or three months. >> he's got this same routine. it's always owning the libs, which of course doesn't work. it's always owning reporters. we had a picture of him there at the museum of tolerance in jerusalem. the clip that comes out of that is not something about tolerance. it's him yelling at a reporter. he loves standing behind a podium yelling at a reporter. he is, in the words of paul simon, a one-trick pony. this is what he does.

contrast that with donald trump. trump is inviting everybody, all these members of congress that said desantis was rude to them, he's inviing them all down to mar-a-lago, all the florida representatives. he's going after it. you sit back and you wonder, i mean, i keep hearing desantis is going to run. maybe he is, but my god, this has been a terrible run-up. everybody was saying john mccain was out of it in 2008 because he had such a terrible start. he obviously game back. the same could happen with ron desantis. i knew john mccain. john mccain was a friend of mine when he wasn't hating on me. i loved senator mccain. you know, he had a good right hook. and ron desantis is no john mccain. he's so badly botched the last couple of months.

do republicans really think this guy can come back and beat donald trump in the primary? >> they're uncertain. their faith has been shaken. we've seen from republican donors who were really behind desantis, there seems to be some waffling. there are real doubts. there's speculation he will, in fact, jump in, but it's not official just yet. we hear stories about him struggling to connect with donors, volunteers and reporters. there's been questions for a while now about his retail political skills. maybe calvin coolidge is a guy who won like the president who really didn't like talking to anybody. silent cal was his nickname. they're few and far between. trump in 2016 was kind of isolated, didn't do much in the way of the retail stuff. as president, he found that he loved hosting lawmakers to the

white house or mar-a-lago or bedminster. he built a lot of these connections with republican lawmakers, who also were terrified of his twitter account. this time around he's doing even more of that. he is doing things like going to diners and talking to voters and hugging january 6th insurrectionists while he's there. he's certainly wooing the republican lawmaker class, doing it in the state of florida most of all as an effort to obliterate desantis. he clearly sees him as his largest threat. it's an uphill climb. trump's lead only seems to be growing. >> this will be the second florida governor if he takes ron desantis out quickly that trump feared, trump focused on and trump drove from the race. developing this story, first republic bank has been taken over by federal regulators. it's going to be sold to jp morgan.

this makes first republic the third major bank to go under in less than two months. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin. we've talked about this before. this is what we were hearing from warren buffett, who said he got out of bank stocks, wasn't sure there wouldn't be more bank fail injury years. >> we telegraphed this on your broadcast last week, that this was coming for this weekend. i think the two big issues this raises from a policy perspective really are, what does jay powell do later this week with interest rates? in some ways, you might suggest he could feel like he could afford to raise interest rates, because this is hopefully the end of the dominos or at least temporarily the end of the dominos in terms of multiple

banks going down. this is a resolution of sorts. the fdic stepped in along with jp morgan. taxpayers won't be on the hook, though, this time. that's the good news. you will see an interest rate raise because this banking issue is at least temporarily taken off the table. the second piece, though, is you have a real moral hazard issue now, because you just had the largest bank in the country, jp morgan, taking over this bank. it was not sold to pnc or one of the smaller regional banks. my understanding is waivers had to be signed to allow jp morgan to take this bank over, which means the big banks get bigger. some think big banks are fine, others think big banks are a problem.

here we are allowing the big banks to get bigger. the lesson of this is to let the knife fall as long as you can. we talk about the game of chicken going on all last week. it proved that if you wait long enough, the fdic will step in, the government will step in, they'll help you out. unclear who else could come in, because they chose to accept bigger banks doing this as opposed to the more politically palatable version of this were to let the regional banks get a little bit bigger. >> andrew, you literally wrote the book on this. here we are 15 years later. i'm sure people are still asking why didn't the government step in and save bear stearns? >> lehman brothers. >> why didn't they step in and save lehman brothers? if they had done that, americans might not have been crushed as

badly as they were crushed. you're right about moral hazard. i think the greatest fear in washington, d.c. from smart republicans and democrats are lines outside of banks. they don't want it to look like that scene in "it's a wonderful life" after jimmy stewart's wedding. but the only answer to that is tougher regulations. they somehow took their eye off the ball. you've got to assume that you're going to have inflationary times. i guess my question to you is, how did regulators take their eye off the ball again and get us to a point where we can either choose a run on the banks and a total economic collapse, or we can reward moral hazard. or we can just throw caution to the wind on the issue of moral hazard. what went wrong this time? >> there's no good answer except

that regulators and, in particular, the supervisors took their eye off the ball and decided they didn't want to press hard. that was a real issue. they saw the problem, but they kept getting pushback from the banks. the banks have their own lobbyists. they're spending an enormous amount of money pushing back on this. some of the regulations did come off post dodd-frank. there's a little bit of what do we do now? is there going to be a moment in a year or two where we have a real conversation all over again about regulation and what does that look like? it's not just about having the regulation. you have to have supervisors and people in place who are actually regulating these banks. the other piece is, to the extent we've decided all banks are going to be saved or at least all depositors are going to be saved, what does that mean for banks? should they be utilities? are they utilities?

have we decided that's what the banking system in america is and is that what we want? those are questions we're going to be grappling with over the next months, if not years. >> this makes a tough economic situation even worse. recession probability reaches 67%. what's the impact of a recession coming over the next six months politically? >> well, i mean, a recession of the next six months politically is obviously bad news for joe biden and his reelection prospects. his approval rating is still stubbornly low. if you're going to have a recession if you're joe biden, you would have preferred to have that recession last year, rather than six months from now right on the brink of an attempt to get reelected. you guys were talking about the parallels or lack of parallels

back to the too big to fail. as you know well, when the financial crisis happened in 2008, there had been warning signs back in 2007 or 2006 where people who were in the business, maybe even you, sort of said, hey man, we've got problems in the morn market. these tremors are part of a systemic problem. for most of us, it was a shock when the financial crisis hit. we've now seen three of these banks fallen. is this connected to some systemic issue that could crop up, and next year we're suddenly looking at another massive financial crisis? >> i don't know if we're going to see another 2008 crisis. when you start to think about the next dominos, if there are dominos, it really is about

commercial real estate. warren buffett's partner of sorts at berkshire hathaway was in the financial times this morning talking about it, which is you have a lot of commercial mortgages effectively made to so many for offices, for shopping centers and the like. guess what? people aren't going to offices. all of those things look like they're going to be underwater for a long time, and that could hurt the banks that provided those mortgages. assuming that's the case, what do you do about it now? the question is, how do you get ahead of it? it's not clear there are answers. there's a sense of if things get better -- and they might. if they get better, it is possible that maybe they can actually get out of this without

having another 2008 crisis. i'm not gambling on one, by the way. >> let us hope we don't have another massive crisis. you bring up a great point about commercial real estate. credit default swaps, i couldn't figure that out. i kept reading the "wall street journal" and the "new york times," wait, what are these credit defaults? i could never figure it out. there was a reason why. it was a total scam. post covid with commercial real estate, who's going to absorb those losses? it's a complete massive loss for the commercial real estate industry and that has to play itself out somewhere. andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much. coming up, tensions are rising as writers and studios have less than 24 hours to make a deal before a strike to shut down the tv and film industry.

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three-pointer. puts it in! steph curry from way downtown! >> the warriors' steph curry with three of his playoff career high 50 points in a series-clenching win over the sacramento kings yesterday. that is the most points scored in a game 7 ever in nba history. warriors were one of the worst road teams during the regular season, but they got the job done in sacramento, beating the kings 120-100. now they will host the los angeles lakers in game 1 of the western conference semifinals.

meanwhile, the knicks could not stand the heat. even with jimmy butler hobbled by a rolled ankle late in the fourth quarter, miami completed its comeback from an early double-digit deficit defeating new york 108-101. game 2 tomorrow at msg. the celtics open their first round tonight against the 76ers. next week, senate majority leader chuck schumer is expected to begin a full frontal attack on the house republican debt ceiling plan. in a new letter out this morning, schumer says senate committees will begin holding hearings to, quote, expose the true impact of the gop debt limit plan. the majority leader also makes clear in his letter that

democrats will only support a no-negotiation clean debt ceiling increase. joining us is mychael schnell and tom rogers. his latest piece is on the growing concern from democrats about a potential third party presidential candidate. give us the latest reporting on the fight over the debt ceiling and where we stand. >> it appears that the focus is going to turn to the senate in this protracted debt ceiling battle. just last week, house republicans narrowly passed their bill that would raise the debt ceiling into next year. it's paired with a slew of spending cuts. republicans are saying the conference is the only one that has proposed a plan for the debt limit. house republicans are the only ones who have put out their plan for how they would walk us off

the brink of this economic catastrophe. they're trying to put pressure on the senate to take up a bill, which is highly unlikely. chuck schumer has called this dead on arrival. or they want them to propose their own bill. of course, democrats have been very clear that they only want a clean debt limit increase without any conditions. house republicans have shown no appetite for that. as we continue, both sides are digging in their heels. house republicans have passed something, so they're putting pressure on the senate for the next move. >> let's talk about the politics of this for a second. i was talking to a senior white house aide over the weekend. they think the public is with them. they say the debt ceiling is lifted. if we were to go over the cliff,

what's the sense as to who's going to take the blame? >> not surprisingly, both sides are pointing fingers at the other side. house republicans are saying we put our plan forward, we passed the spectrum. they were able to come together and pass this through the chamber and send it over to the senate. house republicans are saying the senate has not done anything and democrats have not done anything. republicans are trying to pin the blame on democrats. the other side of that coin is that, as you mentioned, democrats are saying we have passed clean debt ceiling increases previously. let's pass a debt ceiling now so we can have a robust conversation about spending cuts. so senate democrats are saying republicans are trying to hold the debt ceiling hostage. they want to discuss these spending cuts now when it should be a clean increase. in terms of who would have the

blame, likely both sides, because they're really blaming each other. things can move as we get to the summer deadline. >> tom rogers, let's talk about your newsweek piece talking about the, quote, very scary threat to joe biden's reelection. what is it? >> i wrote a piece well before desantis' polls started collapsing about how he was unelectable and what trump is doing to win the primary voter and making himself increasingly unelectable. is there something that would make joe biden unelectable? it's an effort by a centrist group called no labels that is looking to spend $70 million toward putting an independent third party line on every state

ballot. the notion is a unity ticket of a republican that's non-maga and a moderate democrat in an effort to answer the issue of what do the up to 48% of the country that identify as independents, what is their choice. further support for their sefrt effort is polls last week that showed people didn't want biden or trump to run. the history of third party efforts is one of being a spoiler. there hasn't been a third-party candidate in the last 50 years that's gotten a single electoral vote. what nader did in 2000, getting 97,000 votes in florida which took florida out of the gore column where he only lost the vote by 600 votes.

similarly, jill stein and what she did to hillary clinton in wisconsin and pennsylvania and michigan. even going back over 100 years with teddy roosevelt who did get 88 electoral votes. it split the republican vote and the democrat won. this is a very dangerous threat to joe biden's reelection. the group says they'll only pull the trigger if it looks like an independent could really win. history suggests that's not possible. all of their efforts have been geared toward a rematch of the 2020 race. if it's trump versus biden, they are very much looking as if this is something they're going to ou states, including arizona and colorado, two that would be very vulnerable to this kind of moderate third party ticket and just the kind of thing that could undermine joe biden's

candidacy. >> jonathan lemire. >> this weekend the threat posed by this no labels candidacy was pervasive during the last correspondents dinner. there's nothing stopping them. democrats who are concerned about this, are there measures they can put in place? what sort of conundrum are they in? >> the reading the room gets very difficult, because they say they're going to hold a convention in april, just a short period of time after super tuesday. it's really hard to know what that election is going to turn out like when you're making a decision to pull the trigger that much before the election. of course, to get on the ballots, that's when they'd have

to make a decision. the real issue is when you look at certain poll numbers, for instance, the 2016 voter that did vote third party, the 2020 vote shows that those broke overwhelmingly for biden, meaning, if there's another third party effort, he's more vulnerable. you also look at all kinds of polls that say that republicans have many more conservative and very conservative voters than democrats have that identify as liberal or very liberal, meaning, there are more moderates that identify as democrat, meaning a third party moderate ticket would create much more vulnerability for biden as the democratic candidate. it's going to take a lot of pressure to back this effort off. you're right, there is nothing stopping them. it's totally out of biden's control and a real threat to his reelection. >> thank you.

mychael schnell, thank you as well for your reporting on the debt ceiling. coming up, we are just hours away from a potential labor strike that would disrupt tv and film production across the industry. we'll have the looming deadline. we'll have the looming deadline. f i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. and, they felt dramatic and fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal,

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this is a story i'm super worried about, because i'm an addict to streaming. i binge watched the diplomat last week. but here's the problem, a potential writer strike in hollywood is threatening to shut down the tv and film industry as writers have less than 24 hours to strike a deal. miguel almaguer has the latest. >> action! >> reporter: with just hours left to reach a deal, tv and movie sets across the country may be forced to call cut as members of the writer's guild of america threaten to go on strike. it is that you could borderline call a tsunami effect among the rest of hollywood. >> reporter: if the deal is not reached by tonight at midnight, some of your favorite programs including late night talk shows will go dark, even the fate of "saturday night live" is on the

line. this week's host, "snl" alum pete davidson unsure if the show will go on. >> i've been working on this for two or three months and they're like, yeah, we'll know monday if it's happening or not. >> reporter: it comes after weeks of unsuccessful negotiations between the wga and the alliance which represents more than 350 production companies. >> we want more money. we want enough money to make a basic living doing what we love. >> reporter: in a statement the alliance of motion picture and television producers say its priority is the long-term health and stability of the industry, adding it is fully committed to reaching a mutually beneficial deal. >> i think the only thing that is certain going into these last 24 hours is that neither side wants a strike. >> reporter: but without an agreement, writers are ready to drop their pens and pick up picket signs for the first time

since 2008. back then that 100-day strike forced hit shows like "scrubs" and "the office" to cut their season short, costing hollywood billions while the full impact of this impending strike will depend on how long negotiations stall, it could force some network and streaming shows to delay the start of their seasons. to avoid leaving fans hanging, both sides need to act fast to write up a deal with a hollywood ending. >> all right. let's hope they have it. nbc's miguel almaguer with that report. katty, give me a review on "the diplomat?" >> i'm kind of embarrassed that i've always binged the whole series in five days. kerry russell is a diplomat who gets sent to london, quite earnest, gets caught up in global crises trying to prevent world war iii. rupe peert from "victoria, the prime minister in "victoria," he

plays her husband hall. it's about their complicated relationship but makes diplomacy, who knew it, sort of exciting. >> all right. my suggestion, katty for your next streaming series, if you haven't seen it yet, "lucky hank" on amc and amc plus. bob odenkirk is extraordinary in there as well as the entire cast. i think the 23i7b nall lee is coming up this week. there you go. >> great. >> jonathan lemire, i pass it on to you. >> i watched "the diplomat," too, so i'm one episode behind in "succession". some of the best story lines out of hollywood have come from books. already being adapted into a movie by leonardo dicaprio and martin scorcese "the wager" tells the incredible true story

of an 18th century british ship that crashed and the incredible story of survival. the author david bran joins us now. we're going to be all reading books if there's nothing to watch on television anymore. tell us a little bit more about your new one. >> this british naval ship set off in 1740 on a secret mission to try to capture the spanish ghalioun filled with treasure. it wrecked on this desolate island off the coast of patagonia where the crew and officers slowly descended into a real life lord of the flies. there were washing factions and mutinies and murder, even cannibalism. the thing that's most striking that some of the castaways made it back to england where they were summoned to face a court-martial for their alleged crimes. they released their conflicting accounts of what happened which

unleashed this war over the truth, and just like today, there was competing narratives and even allegations of fake news. >> well, that's certainly timely. we see pictures of the island they crashed on. tell us about the research that went into this. how did you discover this narrative and these conflicting tales? >> i first came off an 18th century account by a midshipman who was 16 years old, john byrum. he would later become the grandfather of the poet lord byron whose poetry was greatly influenced by what he referred to as my granddad's narrative. within of the first clues to stories of survival and resilience. what is amazing is a surprising trove of firsthand documents that you can find in archives which somehow survived tidal waves, typhoons, naval battles. i did something very foolish which is i made my own journey

to wager island to try to understand what the castaways had gone through. >> tell me, david, this does sound so much like "lord of the flies." i'm wondering if golding was inspired by this real life story. even the island itself is what i imagined in my mind when i was reading "lord of the flies," just how it looks and going up. you look at it and there are a couple of moments, dramatic scenes near the end where it looks like it could have happened on that island. >> very much so. i don't know about "lord of the flies," but this story influence sod many people, influenced rue sew and voltaire. it influenced charles darwin. of course, it influenced two great novelists of the sea, herman melville and patrick o'brien. >> oh, wow. >> the british empire liked to

think of itself certainly at the time as this bastian of civilization. how did it then tell the story that once some of its stalwarts and sailors landed on this island, within a nanosecond they turn into anarchy? >> this really undercut the central claim of the british empire that its civilization was somehow superior to others. of course, when we get to the island, the officers and crew behaved less like gentlemen and more like bruits. the british empire listening to the stories thinking, do we like any of these stories? they begin to try to cover up the scandalous truth and manufacturer their own myth thick tale of the sea which is why this story felt so much -- even though it took place in the 18th century, like a parable for

our turbulent times today. >> david, i have to ask you. we've heard dicaprio is getting in here, martin scorsese as well. martin scorsese has a movie coming out which based on your number one "new york times" bestseller "killers of the flower moon." i have heard nothing but raves about scorsese's adaption of your book. talk about it. >> i think it's really remarkable. they showed such a fierce commitment to getting the story right, to doing justice. it shows the deep complicity that helps support this murderous system against members of the osage nation who are being killed for their oil rights. i think people are will blown away by the 23i8 film when they see it. >> i've heard it's extraordinary. your new book "the wager," a tale of shipwreck, mutiny and

murder, out now. i can't wait to read it. thank you for being with us. greatly appreciate it. >> my pleasure. thank you for being here. that does it for us this morning. thank you, as always, for you patience. ana cabrera picks up the coverage in 90 seconds. in 90 ss d by cardiologists. it was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto.

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