about what happened in texas, the shooting? >> just absolutely heartbreaking. to listen to governor abbott, you know, reduce this family, children to their immigration status, i just think is really, really disgusting. listen, we have a problem out there. it's the guns and the number of guns and the a standardization of guns that happens. but right now the country is living on edge. people are getting killed pulling into the wrong driveway, getting shot at just bay they rang the wrong doorbell. we we have to have a conversation why we're so unkind, why this whole country is living on the edge. i realize that it's a much deeper dialogue we have to have with each other. >> you said it's a conversation about choosing not to live in the dystopia we are heading toward or currently in.

thank you so much, senator murphy. good luck. >> thank you. that will do it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now. \s ♪♪ \s ♪ ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. it's a horrific crime, even by the standards of a nation that has been become all too familiar with horrific crimes and gun violence. a nation that often bears witness to more than one mass shooting a day. five people were brutally murdered friday night in cleveland, texas by a gunman with an ar-15 rifle. the spark, if you will -- a complaint from a neighbor. here's how "new york times" reports, francisco oropesa was rattling off loud bangs that was keeping mr. garcia's baby awake. he asked his neighbor to stop.

mr. ro oropesa said no, his yard, his rules t garcia warned he would call the police. after oropesa walked into his office, he emerged with an ar-15. he killed mr. garcia ace we've who had called the police. the rampage continued inside the home, where he shot four other people, almost execution style. one of the victims is a 9-year-old little boy. his name is daniel enrique laso. they're all new from the country, hailing from honduras, including march garcia's wife. julisa, 31, and how san jonathan cazares, 18. three children survived the

shooting, because they were underneath or shielded by two of the women who were killed. a manhunt is underway for the gunman. more than 250 officers are on the search as the fbi warns they have, quote, zero leads and are running into dead ends. meanwhile, an entire family, a community is grappling with a horrific loss of five of their own. "the washington post" reports this -- that a vigil held for the dead sunday, commune members hugged one another and sang "amazing grace." a man said he went to church for the first time in a long while. a woman said her sentence of safety, inside her own home, is shattered. a remarkably callous reaction from texas' governor abbott. he offered his condolences, and

refer to his immigration, as if it has anything to do with the or risks nature of the crime, which is an alarming pattern of what's become an inmistakably an american problem. at "the washington post" reports, a massacre after w45shd have been an innocuous exchange marked the seventh of this month. violence that has shattered a family's hope for peace and security in america. once again, from "new york times" reporting, mr. guzman said he left honduras five years ago to escape violent gangs and seek safety and family in cleveland, texas. quote -- we came here to escape violence, he said, and found it in america. before where he begin today, former republican congressman david valle is here, and claire mccaskill, but with us at the

table for an important conversation, frank gutten berg. his daughter jamie was killed in 2018, an international gun policy consultant is here, the co-authors of a really smart, really readable, important new book that may very well change the conversation about how we live with guns in americas, cal "american carnage." thank you so much for being here. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> i know how this lands for me. it shatters me. i always put myself in this position of, would i think that i could get slaughtered if i went and asked somebody to turn the music down, or in this case stop shooting their weapon? i wouldn't, but now i will. >> nicolle, jamie would be 20 in july. so i look at things now in the context of what jamie's life

should be. 20 years ago there were 200 million weapons in america. we have more than doubled, now 400 million. 20 years ago in 2003, ar-15s were fewer than 2% of all guns sold. now they're 25%. those are the only two things you need to know about why a shooting like this happens. those are the only things you need to understand. it's not immigration status. that tells you who greg abbott is. that shooting in texas has more to do with greg abbott and his policy than anything else. you're right to be fearful, okay? in 20 years we have changed america because of the numbers of guns. that's all you need to know. the question -- how did we get here? >> what's the answer? >> for far too long, really starting in 1977, we listened to a lobby that started. in 1977, 9 nra was taken over by

harlen carter. what people didn't know about him at the time, he was a convicted murderer, but he changed a vowel on his name. he redirected the nra. through the '80s and '90s pushed nra into a far different direction, and you really saw the consequences of that happening around 2000. in fact, it was 2005 when the first stand your ground law was passed. we have seen now since 2000, a weakening of law after law after law because of all the lies they told us. i want america to know this -- america and its history is a country that has supported gun safety. this is not who we are. this is a relatively new shift, and we're now paying the price in blood of those we love that we need to bury, but it doesn't

have to be this way. i'll just say this. greg abbott and all the others like him, we -- if voting didn't matter to you before, if you didn't think you had the perfect candidate, he just showed you today why you need to vote for the person who wants to reduce gun violence no matter what. >> i'm going to read from steve kerr's foreword. it makes the point so beautifully, persuading the public is done. there's a majority of gun owners who want gun safety. and i think this issue may reflect just how broken or politics are that nothing happens. >> today, i think it was today, nikki haley put out a photo, like she was playing dressup, and the obligatory candidate photo of her dressup with a huge

rifle. for what? for what? i don't think our politics are broken. i think we elected a class of people, though, who have such a low regard for voters and for those who vote, or maybe correctly assume the majority of us won't vote, that we're electing broken people who are making decisions like this. so my message to america is, you solve this by voting. >> i think that people are focused on this in a way this year than maybe never before. i think -- >> for sure. >> i think to do a dispute between neighbors to end in a massacre, to see someone getting in the wrong car, you know, a couple cheerleaders get shot in a parks lot. >> ringing the wrong doorbell.

>> right. to see lives shattered in interactions we all have as we go about our lives. i get in the wrong uber, and i jumped in a way i might not have had i not covered these stories this year. what is happening to us? you want to jump? >> historically -- one of the things we touch on in the book is there was a view that gun violence happened over there somewhere, and obvious that was the inner city, and there was coded language, in other words people of color. if i wasn't a person of color, didn't live in a city, i didn't have to worry. now with these incidents, clearly we're seeing across every demographic group, across any size of community, you make one slip, one mistake, and you can literally be shot. you asked, nicolle, why is this happening? well, we believe that over the last 40 years, the gun lobbies

waged what we caused a disinformation campaign, trying to convince americans that they're safer in their homes and safer carrying a gun out in public, and nothing can be further from the truth. but there are real-world consequences, because some americans have bought that message, and we're seeing, compared to 20 years ago when jamie was born, we're seeing five times as many americans carrying guns daily outside. it's still a minority, but they're carrying guns, and 40% of gun owners of keeping guns loaded and accessible in the home. so that's changed. in the past, america had a history of gun ownership, but people would lock up their guns, go hunting and so forth. now guns are being primarily bought for personal protection. they're handled differently, and handle dangerously in the home. >> where is the disinformation

coming from? and where is it amplified? >> largely from the national rifle association and the industry, but it's being hugely amplified on social media. we see it every day, fred and i, in terms of our tweets and the types of hostile comments that you get, but we're also seeing that the vast majority of people seem to be supportive of our message. as you mentioned, no less than fox news conducted this poll that showed that 80% or more of americans now support red flag laws, background checks, raising the age for gun purchasing. so they're becoming more favorable. another myth, which we also talk about is that it's -- you know, the country is hope leslie broken.

people tell us all the time you're preaching to the converted. we know in politics about 40% of americans are independent. in fact, there are groups now of gun owners and non-owners getting together trying to develop some solutions they can live with. most gun owners are supportive of the type of basic types of laws that most of us are seeking. >> most legal gun owners have gone through background checks myself. >> can i add one thing? too many of those who have elected because too many don't vote. all you need to do is look at a tweet like what came out from greg abbott today or rick scott. they talked about the immigration status. neither one of them said, how in the world did the guy get the a rove-15? they amplify it with their words and actions. if you go back to the last month to the shooting in tennessee,

nobody wants to talk about the gun on the other side. you know what they want to talk about? transgender. and nothing to do with it, but they're the ones shout there telling all these lies, the need for personal protection, the lies around, this is who we are as americans. no, we're not. in 20 years, we have doubled the number of weapons. that's why we're in this position today. >> you know, better than anybody, there aren't any more places immune from the national crisis. >> no. >> our schools can be targeted. to be the governor of a state with uvalde and respond the way he did is even more shocking. to have some of jamie's classmates become political pinatas and become targeted, what is that like for you? >> you know, listen, i september

there are evil people. unfortunately, some are elect to do serve. i'm amazed by these kids, maybe because of what they lived through, are completely unaffected by the morons that served. >> they're almost inspired to keep going. >> they're basically, like, listen, i lived through a school shooting. i heard the shots. i had to walk through the carnage. you can't hurt me with your stupidity. i'm going to keep coming, because i want to stop the next one. you know what? those kids, tom and me, never forget this. our motivation is really simple -- stopping the next one. their motivation, people like greg abbott and those who push the narrative, their motivation is selling the next one.

>> what would jamie think of this book? >> i think she would be proud of her dad. my daughter was a fighter. my daughter got right from wrong. my daughter stood up for others. my daughter spent her time with people who also stood up for others, kind of the way i'm collaborating with tom now. i just -- my daughter was shy, if she didn't know people, so there's a part of me that thinking she would hide from all of this -- >> except when she was dancing. >> and when she knew you. i always say, you know, jamie was the energy in every room she walked into, because she was comfortable with her people. nicolle, in my house, jamie was the one like me who got really engaged in politics and the news.

i have no doubt in my mind that, had she not been killed that day, she would be one of those kids fighting for change. >> doing this work. >> doing this work. unfortunately, this weekend, i visited my daughter at a cemetery because of the lies that brought us to this place where we are today. >> you never adopt make me cry -- i don't think that grammatically correct, but it's true. he had a huge day yesterday, go my warriors -- i want to bring claire and david jolley into this conversation. coach kerr -- 90% of americans, regardless of political leanings support universal background checks. 70% of nra members believe in that. the problem is not sensibility. the vast majority of people in this country are rational and sensible. the problem is politics.

like every other major issue this country has dealt with in our history, political change takes time, like turning a cruise ship. in 2008, obama ran for president on a platform that did not support gay marriage. the issue was kurted political danries, so he shied away with it. in just seven years later in 2015, while obama was still president, gay marriage became legal. yes, gun violence is a more heated, contested issue, but 9 politics are similar. as sentiment changes, our laws can reflect that. claire, we have talked about active shooter drills, if you can think this school shooting over here won't happen to me, over here, that is compartmentalization that i almost envy, but there's no compartmentalizing the active shooter drill. from about the age of 3, they're

hiding from bad guys, staying really quiet. >> and not only do we have our children hiding, but now we're to the point that people will be afraid to interact with their neighbors. let's keep in mind -- this books is powerful, and obviously we all adore what fred has done with his life after losing the love of hi life. this man who was confronted was not shooting an ar-15. he went in his house to get the military weapon of mass slaughter, because he knew he needed the mass slaughter machine to kill all of the people that lived next door to him. it's the ar-15 and high-capacity magazines killing the innocent

people, and the majority of americans want them off the streets. all the majority of americans have to do is decide they're never voting for another jerk who won't admit that the ar-15 is part of the problem. i mean, can you imagine -- nikki haley is running for president. the day after this shooting, she puts on her army green sweater and goes and poses with a military-style slaughter machine, and thinking it's a good idea to put it owl there. i mean, is she absolutely politically clueless right now? how furious women in america are about the idea that 25% of the guns in america are military weapons of mass slaughter? it is unbelievable. i'm sorry i get so upset. i feel so passionately about this, and i want every candidate to feel just as passionate about it. >> i want to show you what the county sheriff had to say.

i wonder if nikki haley saw this, david. >> my heart -- is with -- this 8-year-old little boy. i don't care if he was here legally. i don't care if he was here illegally. he was in my county. five people died in my county. that is where my heart is. in my county protecting my people to the best of our ability. >> what do you think of that? >> that's the right response. i think, look, i break this down in three different ways, nicolle -- politically, legislatively and culturally. what you heard from the sheriff was call the bad face of the republicans. i think the answer is never again reelectric a rep. they're bad faith actors. if they want to focus on motive

as opposed to the means, if they want to focus on one's status, if they want to focus on the evangelical community that we have to fix hearts and minds, the means is the weapon, and the access to that weapon, in the cases like we just saw, to weapons of war. legislate inkly the numbers are clear. there's consensus in america around several common-sense members we can do, but i think we have to get more agreative to that. this is probably the farthest i've gotten on knit political cal issue. think when it comes to background checks, it's not just universal, but comprehensive. it's got to go much further than that. it's got to go to zero-tolerance, strict storage requirements. if you're not eye biding by those requirements, you're going to jail. guns in the countries, that's

the third point is culture. where are we culturally on this? it's become so acceptable that somehow the pro-second amendment rights group has embraced a culture that allows for carnage in the streets, and we give them equity. we can't give them equity. i find some of the comments intriguing about where we see america today, compared to 100 years ago or 50 years ago, because i think that disparity exists in different states across the country as well. there are states with equal density of gun ownership, but some celebrate the violence and bra zooo, and others recognize the responsibility and discipline that has to attend to it. that suggests our culture has gotten off the rails when it couple times to guns ownership. the political answer is clear -- beat republicans. legislatively we have to move last common sense, but cut rally

this is the war for 2024. crush the culture of guns. shame the people that suggest the stat cuss quo is okay getting through the next election. >> i want to follow up on the republican piece. that sort of intersects with the culture. you have this is knuckleheads with their children holding weapons of war. it's a horrific sort of culture fetish, really meetings a horrific legislative and political party. who roles do you think that has in the permission structure around the culture piece, david? >> i think that's the constituency of leaders or followers we have to change. these open carry states, it's not appropriate for our families and kids to go into the store and see people brandishing a weapon. when i say beat all republicans, i think we have to go past the thomas masseys and nikki

hallies, and say to their colleagues, i will never vote for you again. i'm talking about my own friends. i won't do it. if you're part of a party that continues to stand in the way of addressing gun violence, you don't deserve reelection even if you're the nicest republican that the world has ever met. shame on you. wow, no one is going anywhere. ewe'll also get to the justice department's january 6th investigation. there's brand-new reporting from "new york times" on how the trump campaign fund raised off the false claims of election fraud. it's another stage as jack smith consideration any criminal charges. and today marks e. jean carroll's third day on the witness stand. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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we are back. david, claire, fred and tom are back. let me read from the book. from our numerous speaking engagements we have learned that members of the public would be even more supportive of basic policies if they were better informed about laws and practices throughout america. for example, many people are surprised to hear that most americans are not gun owners and not part of any gun culture. they're struck by the fact that a small fraction own about half the nation's guns. they're astounded by the influence on congress has made

guns exempt from basic consumer protections, that are extended to toys, to mattresses, hair dryers, virtually every other consumer product and the industry is shielded in liability when guns do what they are designed to do, kill humans, often more than one person at a time. >> you know, we often hear from people in other countries that we have this gun culture. only 30 percent of americans are gun owners. among these owners, most of therm support common-sense legislation. there's a subpopulation, about 6% of americans who own two thirds of the nation's guns. >> wow. >> when asked in a poll, only 3% of americans say they identify

with guns as part of, you know, their core beliefs. they have an identity that fits the description of what most of us think d. or people across the world thing america is, a country enamored with guns. why is that important to stress? we have a small group of what you call super owners, is that this group has disproportionate power in congress, and they're very vocal. they're people who generally are one issue voters, they influence politicians in many ways, donate to campaigns and so forth. so i think the vast majority of americans needs to take action in various ways, not just voting, but voting for candidates who makes firm commitments to do specific things, not just discuss plat attitudes of improving the

situation with gun violence. then they can be held accountable, so people should support these candidates. fred has pointed out elsewhere we are electing more candidates who are committed to change. it's very exciting to see the two justins in tennessee, to see maxwell frost, 25 years of age in florida. these are our future leaders they're going to have a lot of support. i'm convinced that change is coming. >> i know you're a student of this political moment, of extremism on the right around guns, or at least super-owners, which is a fascinating what i to look at them, but also around abortion. how do you put opposition -- the will of the 85% into an anti-democracy bucket? >> listen, i think it was last friday you had on from texas amanda. i'm in awe of her.

i think the majority of america that's being impacted by what this minority is doing to us has had it. i think you're seeing people unafraid to speak up, speak out and to not stop, and who will form a coalition of voters that will put an end to the reign that his people have on us. listen, i've been saying now for a few weeks, as i see the responses continues from these lunatics on the right. stop listens to the liars. they put is in this place where we are today. stop listening to the liars, but also stop searching for a perfect handed -- make sure you vote for the candidate who is committed to reducing gun violence, who is committed to the right to choose, who's committed to freedom.

'24 will be an election that will define this country for a really long time. we can re-claim our safety. we need to vote. >> david jolly, i don't see there's a single republican running against the very unpopular positions around gun and abortion. what is the national conversation against anyone politician who stands against the 85% on those two issues? >> i think this is where we need to embrace this. republicans like to have their own culture wars around issue of immigration and lgbt issues. why not one around the safety of our own kids. make that a defining issue and give people a sideways look if they don't support greater gun violence reform. ultimately the safety of our children and communities come

down not to the culture wars on the right, but this issue, and this issue alone. i have always been moved by the words that fred schafer with me the very first time we met, several months after parkland, when i went up to you in los angeles and said i want to thank you for what you're doing. as fred shared history with me, it ended with him saying i wish i had done something sooner. we all nose fred's heart in this movement, but those are words for us across the country. sooner is right now, to defeat republicans and elect democrats so we can have an honest debate. >> you know, something tom said about people to survive -- i believe in adaptive behaviors, because they come from some survive instinct, right? but to survive the or owes, people think it can't happen to them, and you get into everybody's stuff. it can happen to you, to your

wife and your son, to lose a daufrt and sister. it can happen to anyone after dropoff, or before pickup. >> i now you would give after the it back, but what -- what pieces of your broken heart have you melded with some sense of optimism, that to honor her, you can change things? >> well, i told you in the past 20 years we have doubled the number of guns in america, to 25% of all assault being ar-15s. it didn't need to be this way. it also doesn't mean we can't do something more about it. my hope comes from the fact that actually i think the country is

ready to make the kind of change that will lead to doing more about it. that isn't an anti-gun statement. that's an anti-gun violence statement. >> you always make that distinction. >> because it is. you know, wanting to take steps to reduce gun violence doesn't mean legal, lawful gun owners have to be affected. my friend david is from florida. after parkland, we passed gun safety. we passed red flag laws, we raced the age to 21, three-day waiting person. there's not a single lawful gun owner who think being what we did, because it doesn't impact them. the only people challenging what we did, and they are challenging it, is the gun lobby, and their knuckleheads in tallahassee who are trying to undo the age of 21, who have permitless carry, but floridians, they pay no

attention to what we did. 2 doesn't affect them, but the red flag law was used over 7,000 times. it stopped gun violence. that's what we're talking about. >> the book is amazing. thank you for both of you for being here. the new book is called "american carnage." thank you both so much. you'll be on later -- >> later today, and if i could see claire and david, i would give them a hug. i love what they both said. >> and they would hug you back. thank you both for the comments. claire sticks around a bit longer. next, we turn into the investigation of the once-indicted past president. could jack smith be considering wire fraud charges. new reporting suggests that the question is worth asking, just ahead. g suggests that the question is worth asking, just ahead. ce pace! clearly, you're a safe driver. you could save hundreds for safe driving with liberty mutual.

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their own supporters, by convincing them they were fighting election fraud that they knew never existed, and donating to a defense fund that was never used for that. "new york times" says that doj's special counsel jack smith has recently stepped up his probe into the big rip-off specifically, whether trump and his aides knew they lost the election and therefore violated wire fraud statutes from the fund-raising. more restly, investigators had honed in on the activities of a join fund-raising committee made up of assistant members from the campaign and from the rnc, among others. some subpoena have been sought. prosecutors have been heavily focused on the details of the spending and fund raisings. all three areas overlap and could inform prosecutors on whether to proceed with charges.

katy benner and glen kirshner are here. glen, explain how -- when this was explained to me, it was like light bulbs going off, but explain how you can run afoul of the law by raising money based on a known lie. sort of an intersection in how we claim to understand some of the legal issues around dominion. and how it could expose in campaign officials to criminal liability. >> yeah, nicolle, it violates the federal law. it is wire fraud, which is still defined as creating a scheme to defraud people out of their moan and then using, quote, the wires which, when the statute was passed, i believe, in the 1950s, meant radio, television,

telephone. now people most frequently run afoul of the wire fraud laws by defrauding people by using the internet. that's what donald trump did. there's a marquee incriminating statement that came directly out of donald trump's mouth, that i maintain proves everything he did thereafter constitutes wire fraud. it was the infamous oval office meeting with some of his own high doj officials, and one of them, richard donahue said they were telling donald trump there was no systemic fraud undermining the election results. what donald trump said and what richard donahue pretty much testified to word for word is actually an incriminating twofer. that is because he said, i don't care if there was no fraud, just say there was and leave the rest to me and my republican allies

in congress. nicolle. the reason i say that, a powerfully incriminating twofer is because it proves donald trump did not care about the true state of affairs, whether there was or juan election fraud. he was concerned two things -- retaining the power of the president by hook or by crook, and defrauding people out of their money. that marquee incriminating statement makes a powerful case for both wire fraud and conspiracy to defraud the united states. >> katie, we just happen to have some of that testimony. let me play that for you. >> i told him the stuff that his people were shoveling out to the public were bull [ bleep ]. i went piece by piece so say no, that's false, it's not true, and

correct him in a serial fashion as he moved from one theory to another. >> katie, they had action to at least a dozen campaign officials who came out and said the same thing, going all the way back to election night, that they were looking at the returns coming in, they knew he wasn't going to make it. everyone from bill stepien to -- i think everyone on the campaign knew he had lost, and there's usually a cascade of people who go out to deliver the news, but usually it's to explain it. talk about how many witnesses are available that we know about, and obviously more to the doj, that can testify to that. >> there are plenty of witnesses who have both come in publicly and behind closed-door committee, to the senate, to the house. the inspector general, the justice department, all say they

informed donald trump and the white house counsel's office and his top lawyers, and his leadership on the campaign, that in fact there was no evidence to suggest that there was fraud. there was no evidence to suggest that donald trump had won. we have seen that time and again. what's interesting here, though, is they're not necessarily looking at the white house counsel's office, not necessarily looking at some of the people. the witnesses, they're looking at the people who are running the e-mail campaign to raise money for donald trump after the election. that's a really interesting sort of bridge you have to bridge those two groups of people. when we saw the january 6th committee attempt to do this, the report is lengthy and detailed. in this piece of report, they are not able to make that direction connection. what they are able to do, though, is create the kind of compelling evidence that would cause jack smith to be very interested in this area. you see from their own

reporting, somebody was working on the fund-raising effort, a lower-level person that raised the flag, we're sending out e-mails that donald trump was defrauded, and we now it's not true. i think this is wrong, and that person was fired. so we see compelling evidence saying this is the wrong thing to do, but we don't yet see the evidence that donald trump was saying to the people sending these e-mails, thinks my scheme and this is what i want you to do. so even if jack smith doesn't make that connection, there's still a chance there's a crime there. of course, you know, as glen knows, and other guests know, when you start charging people with crime and wrongdoing, one of the reasons to do that is see whether or not they have 6th, whether they can tell you about people above them that asked them to do things that are wrong. >> claire, i remember in the days after the election, people

close to trump who were talking to the campaign and saying things like, they know it's over, he's just trying to squeeze more money out of his supporters. i imagine if jack smith wants to close this loop, as casey importantly points out, you know, there's a bit of space between whether trump was directing it or not, there were a lot of people talking to both sides of that equation, trump and the campaign. >> well, listen, i'm going to try to avoid my weekly rant about why are we just now talking about this, when it happened years ago. why are we just now working or way up this food change? put that aside, and by the way, ho-hum, model. he wouldn't pay his workers. trump university was famous for his fraudulent stuff. this is a guy who is totally comfortable ripping people off. the thing that's interesting is

as katie and glen talked about, this is complicated because they have to work up the food chain to make the connection and that is time consuming. you have to start with someone who knew it was false and proved they knew it was false and work their way up and see where the orders were coming from to continue to put out fraudulent emails lying about why they were raising the money and lying about the fact that there was some legal case they were pursuing because there was fraud. so there is -- this is a complicated case to make and they are going to have to go up the food chain to ever get close to trump but the closer they get, the more likely they are to squeeze someone who is going to want to squeal. >> we're taking a break but after we do that, we are going to go there and really try and understand not just why we're here now but what it means that we're here now. don't go anywhere. we'll all be right back. now don't go anywhere. we'll all be right back. tle mar! [ laughs ]

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we could get a personal chef! i heard about this guy on the news that, that serves a very rare species of fish. highly illegal. he's wanted by interpol. we could have his scary fish whenever we want! - we're not rich... i used kayak to compare hundreds of travel sites to get a great deal on our flight, car, and hotel. - oh. - kayak. search one and done. we're back with katie glen and claire. glen, what does it mean that this is where we are now? >> i am so disappointed, nicole, that we didn't get to hear claire rant about why it taking so darn long. with her permission i'm going to pick up the baton and run with it. these are cases that would try themselves against donald trump, the insurrection, wire fraud, the classified documents, crimes. the problem is they don't indict

themselves. what is required is indicting low-level political figures and working your way up, applying pressure so that you can build a bridge up to trump and company and you can't do that by just prosecuting the boots of the insurrection. you can't build a bridge to donald trump and the ruling class and political criminals by exploiting the boots of the insurrection. there's no connective tissue there. i am with claire, i heard her rant many times and i can't understand why lower level political people have not been indicted over the course of the past two years so that we can build that bridge up to the signature, you know, bigger criminal fish. so why are we here now? i don't know. i'm glad that jack smith was appointed back in november because he has been moving out quickly and aggressively. i only wish that the department of justice had been doing that for the prior year and a half. >> and i think it's another

piece of the story that maybe history will answer. why weren't -- open secret is going too far. this was known. this was reported by katy and her colleagues, i knew this at the time, that the campaign knew trump had lost. the campaign did their own internal documents on rudy's statements alone, informing everyone on the campaign they were wrong. the campaign then hires two firms to see if there's any election fraud. the two firms that the campaign hires comes back and tells them there wasn't any. so a lot of questions in this space in particular. katy, glen and claire, thank you so much for being part of our coverage. >> when we come back, the twice impeached on the stand again. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. t go anywhe. we'll be right back.

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i mean, the question would be why you chose not to say something in 2016. >> yeah, shocking as it sounds, i thought it would help him. and shocking as it sounds, i was correct. >> why did you think it would help him, the women coming forward with allegations of groping? >> because it is a masculine, powerful, leader-like thing to do, to take what you want, to have as many women for your own pleasure as you can take. >> hi again, everyone. a very revealing moment that says a lot about how we treat people in power and also how we

viewed men in a pre me-too era. she was describing why she didn't come forward that donald trump raped her. she was on the stand for a second day of cross-examination by donald trump's lawyer. she said, i was born in 1943, i am a member of the silent generation. women like me were taught and trained to keep our chins up and to not complain. women her age were not ever trained to call the police about sexual assault, she said. i would never call the police about something i am ashamed of. she even added that at the time, quote, i thought it was my fault. today marked carroll's third day on the witness stand and the

last of his cross-examination of her. he combed through her past statement and accused her of being after the status and money. at one point he asked about her life. she responded, quote, i put up a front. i don't want people to know i suffer. i would be ashamed if people actually know what's going on. and in an 18-page filing, he accused of judge of making unfair rulings against his client. reuters reports that "requests for mistrials are often long shots but form the basis for eventual appeals. meanwhile, the defendant in the case, the twice disgraced, indicted president will not

appear. he currently is in scotland. we begin with erika orderon in here, has been inside the courtroom throughout e.j. carroll's testimony and katie fang and donna edwards is back. erika, take us in what happened in court today. sure. so, as you mentioned, it was the third day of carroll's testimony, the second day of her cross-examination, which is now over. and for a large part of the day, trump's lawyer sought to draw distinctions between carroll's testimony so far and some of her prior statements including her interviews on podcasts and on tv shows and statements she made in her book and statements she made

in her depositions for this case. he tried to ask her questions regarding her emotions surrounding the events, her emotions immediately after the alleged attack and over the years and he also, as you pointed out, questioned why -- again, why she did not contact the police and why she stayed quiet about the alleged rape all these years. and in addition to that, he brought up a number of social media posts that she had made, including a post professing her massive, in her words, admiration for trump's show "the apprentice" and a facebook post in which she joked about -- or posted a joke about having sex with donald trump for money and he -- and joe tacapino

questioned whether she was able to find humor in anything regarding her alleged attacker. >> i followed all of your coverage on social media and everything that's been written and it seems like he is putting her on trial for not acting like a normal rape victim. is that a right read of how he's rying to present his questioning of her? and does he say what a normal response to being alleged lip -- allegedly raped in a dressing room would be? >> there was a moment last week where he repeatedly questioned her about why she didn't scream during or after the alleged rape. that moment cape up again today and that was during the questioning by carroll's own lawyer, who asked, you know, if it was normal behavior or if

there was any normal behavior for someone to have in response and subsequent to that he asked carroll another series of questions regarding the screaming and the point he was making that was he wasn't asking her -- he wasn't doubting her account or wasn't, you are know, questioning why she wouldn't scream, he was asking her about her varied responsible p responses to why she didn't scream. he didn't really see it the way you characterized but that was the interpretation of a lot of people watching the questioning. >> only 310 out of every

thousand rapes. imagine the questions by him are part of the reasons why. >> i wanted to say apparently today my name came up. victims will have a varied response. in this particular instance we just heard that e.j. carroll at the age of 79 underwent two days of vigorous cross-examination.

and joe tacopina accused the judge and it's not the judge that is testifying, it's e. jean carroll said i reacted because people came to me for advice as a columnist. i was not going to be the one that was going to be the victim and i was told i should not come forward and i also reacted in this way. i think what's really unfortunate, nicole, is i'm a former prosecutor, i've tried these cases, i've also, you know, prosecuted these cases civilly. at the end of the day, your reaction is going to be unique to you. and i asked people that are listening to the show the following: how can you take the entirety of one person's life experiences, have them fine tooth combed and then have to justify your actions in a span

of hours upon a witness stand? that is the courage and bravery it takes for the victim of a sexual assault to come forward and do. but there is a jury that is sitting in judgment and that is what our jury system is created to do and the jury is going to hear instructions from the judge before they go to deliberate and one of those instructions is their ability to weigh the credibility of a witness. one of the witnesses is going to be e.j. carroll in this case. one of the witnesses is not going to be donald trump and that is very telling in my opinion. if donald trump hasn't done anything wrong, if he wants to use other outlets including a truth social, social media platform to refute the claims that are being made, he has certainly the opportunity and the means to come to court and do so. the jury will not be able to determine the credibility of donald trump because he will not be there. >> i want to play some sound of two other women.

katty kay corrected me when i said 19 women have credibly accused donald trump of sexual assault. the number is 26. i want to play sound from two of them. and they will be among the witnesses the jury hears from. >> everybody's got a perfect right not to believe me because it happened so long ago, but i'm not bothered by being called a liar. but what i find interesting is the stories of those other, what, 14, 15 women, they're all the same. and none of them have colluded with each other. so this is an m.o. of this man. >> why didn't you come forward at the time? >> it could hurt my career, i could lose my job. i could be sued. all the things that are, you know, happening now is what i worried about then. i'm older and wiser now and stronger. so i can take it now.

but back then i was afraid. >> donna edwards, it is amazing to listen to and read the transcript of joe tacopina beating up carroll for the way she conducted herself after being raped by donald trump. you didn't scream you didn't -- what is he getting at. what is his view of the right way to act after an alleged rape? >> nicole, in my long ago life, i spent a lot of time working with victims of domestic violence and sexual assault. and i have to say i am amazed by the courage of these women. and you can see why. it takes so much courage because they get attacked. their credibility, their response that was not the right response. and so all of the things that you see tacopina engaged in,

these behaviors are exact reasons why it takes so much courage, whether it's in a criminal or a civil context for women to come forward, to ask them why didn't you go to the police, why can't you report it to somebody? what were you wearing? what were you doing? and so it's not a surprise that these women describe the same story. i mean, we know that perpetrators of these crimes actually behave in a very, very similar way. and so i think it's important for the jury to hear these stories and to judge the credibility based on common sense. and that's what's going to happen in this case and joe tacopina is doing the only thing that he can do for his client, which is to try to destroy the credibility and the voice of carroll. >> how do you see this trial

going for her? >> i think you are seeing a very well structured case thus far. we ascribe to the following philosophy as lawyers, start strong and end strong. psychological studies show that jurors, the first thing you hear and last thing you hear and what you're seeing thus far, though, is the chronology. the setting of the scene with the bergdorf goodman witness and i reasonably anticipate that we will then hear from the two other alleged victims of donald trump's sexual assault whose testimony has been permitted by judge kaplan and then we should be hearing from expert witnesses to talk about why is there a delayed reporting in this case, that it is not unusual as representative edward has said, that it's not unusual to have a different and varied response by

the victim to sexual assault to not only not report it immediately to law enforcement but you'll also hear, nicole, from at least two corroborating witnesses, friends of carroll that she spoke to in the imimmediacy of what happened and the conversations she had with them. it will be the presentation. joe tacopina has advised the court he's going to chip away at the credibility. witnesses put forth by the plaintiff and that's all he's going to do in this case. the jury will only hear certain pieces of evidence. the judge has already told them what the lawyers say in the course of a trial is not evidence. so it's a lower burden of proof, it is not a criminal case, it is a preponderance of the evidence standard and i think that's the reason why you're not seeing

donald trump in trial. he not only have to defend his actions from carroll but from two other alleged victims. i don't think he'd be able to convince this jury of what the reality is, which is what he's alleged to have done. >> and they are allowed to hear donald trump describe sexual assault in his own words on the "access hollywood" tape. right, katie? >> they are. and just like the fulton county georgia case, there's a tape of the defendant, donald trump, in his own voice stating how he can just take. the last thing i'm say is on cross-examination there's this grilling of e. jean carroll about what she didn't do and how she responded, et ceter. there's an emphasis about the glorification of rape, the objectification of women and

about the ability of a man to take what he wants with impunity. and on redirect, e. jean carroll said today the reason i've come forward is i'm taking back my life and taking back control of my life. that is a direct refutation of this crime of the offense of sexual assault, this idea that control is taken away from you and if that's the case, e. jean carroll has said from the very beginning, i just want my day in court. >> donald trump's quote is, quote, when you're famous, they let you do it." it's not a denial. it's what he sees as his permission structure. he doesn't deny that he grabs women between the legs. he says, quote, when you're famous, they let you do that.

>> i think the importance of hearing that again from donald trump's mouth reinforces the credibility of e. jean carroll and the corroborating witnesses because that's exactly what he did. and so, i mean, donald trump is not going to get away in this trial, i don't think, with being able to say that's not the kind of thing -- he's not even saying it, his lawyer is saying that's not the kind of thing that trump does because there will be so much evidence put on the record in front. jury that refutes that. and, again, the only thing that tacopina can do, as katy has said, is to continue to chip away at the witnesses. i just don't think in this instance given trump's own voice that that's going to be enough in this civil trial. >> we will all keep watching with your help. thank you so much for making sense of it to us. our thanks to erika on her coverage.

when we come back being the biden administration taking an unprecedented step to fight back against state abortion bans. what they are doing. and what is being called a crisis of legitimacy at the supreme court. after weeks of reports of ethical lapses by supreme court justices, what we will hear tomorrow. >> and joe biden saying his age is a factor in seeking a second term. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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the language in the texas law is so vague and that's intentional. after the dobbs decision came down, the biden administration put out guidance on when an abortion and could be provided and in my state the attorney general, ken paxton, sued the federal government to have them revoked. what happened to me is in my opinion something he knew would happen and, frankly, intended to happen. >> that was the lead plaintiff in the suit against texas' near total ban on abortion talking to us here on friday about her ordeal, being denied abortion

and health care after finding out 18 weeks into her pregnancy that her daughter, willow, was unlikely to survive and near nearly losing her own life. and doctors at two hospitals told melissa farmer that her fetus would not survive, that her amniotic fluid emptied and that she was at risk of serious risk or losing her pregnancy but they would not terminate the pregnancy. they said fortunately this patient survived but she never should have gone through the terrifying ordeal she went through in the first place. we want her and every patient like her to know we will do everything we can to protect

their lives and health. she added, quote, it was dehumanizing, it was terrifying, it was horrible not to get the care to save your life. i felt like i was responsible to do something to do something, to say something, to not have this happen again to another woman. it was bad enough to be so powerless. senior editor for "slate" and host of the "amicus" podcast. donna is still with us. dalia, it was only going to take a minute to see how the state reaction to dobbs was going to affect real women with real pregnancies and real health crises but that moment is upon us and no response from the biden administration. your thoughts today. >> i'm really struck by the overlay between the testimony that you read earlier about

being turned away from hospitals, almost bleeding out in a parking lot and the fact that you may recall that dr. ingrid scott, the gynecologist testifying that there was no problem, nothing to worry about, turned to amanda and said, oh, your doctor didn't understand texas law, that's clearly a bad doctor, texas allows for exception for your case and the senator had the temerity to say maybe he should sue the doctor for malpractice. and then to fault the people who can't practice medicine, it's absolutely breathtaking that nothing doctors can do is ever going to be right. when they give treatment they're on the hook. when they fail to give treatment, also on the hook evidently based on that hearing

and senator cornyn's suggestion that they're up for malpractice for refusing treatment. so i feel like i say this to you every time but the purpose here is chilling. the purpose is to terrorize physicians and hospitals into not knowing what the law is and erring on the side of not having catastrophic either losing licensure or paying huge, huge awards. so when they do nothing, then they're accused by the other side of failing to be good doctors. >> where does it leave us, dahlia? what is the lived reality now for doctors in this country? >> well, you know, we're seeing the numbers of doctors who are saying i can't practice medicine in this state or that state. we're seeing reports of doctors fleeing from states in which they feel as though they're hamstrung. they did not get into the practice of medicine in order to

have a panel of lawyers tell them in exigent circumstances what they can and can't do in terms of offering the best possible course of treatment for somebody who may literally be dying on their table. and i think a lot of them are just, you know, saying i can't do this anymore because as i said, they're caught between either, you know, doing something and then being found liable for it or apparently now not doing something and being found liable and i think that the most interesting thing about the new a.p. reporting that we're seeing today about the biden administration saying to these two hospitals why didn't you offer services is that in kansas abortion was still legal. there's no explanation for why one of the two states felt that they couldn't treat this woman. and yet i think that yet again suggests to me that this chaos and confusion, the sort of immobilizing fear is very much the point. >> so justice alito's statement,

what do you make of the recent public complaints from justices is that the reason they're unpopular is because some of us have the audacity to cover their poll numbers? >> i would suggest just separating the two issues for purposes of being super clear, which is to say their unpopular poll numbers are in part because of the doctrinal catastrophes that your wreaking, whether it's guns, the environment or abortion. whatever it is, people hate it. you and i have talked about that before. but the thing that's interesting is they want to conflate that with ethics violations, with clear, unequivocal violations of the ethics laws and they want to say you're just mad at us, you want to delegitimize us because

you don't like our decisions. they're two totally separate issues. if you're taking gifts, half million dollar gifts from donors who actually have interests in court outcomes, then please don't tell me it's about the dobbs decision. so i think the whole notion that justice alito is the single biggest victim, i guess he says the six conservatives are these single biggest victims of the dobbs league is such a preposterous victim-grabbing move, he should talk to amanda and the others who are being denied treatment and are told they may not have children in the future because of the dobbs decision. >> for our part, i will keep our attention focused on them. this is how farmer, melissa farmer, is the woman who the hhs

decision is in response to her case. this is her experience. farmer has lost trust. quote, i haven't lost trust in care but i've lost trust that doctors will be allowed to make the medical decisions they need to make, she said. she's lost trust in the poll politicians who represent her as well. she has yet to receive an answer that satisfies her. why is the law written this way. if it's to protect women, why did she have to be in danger before she could get care in her state? donna, the reality is that the experience of melissa farmer and then melissa farmer going on to have a voice was not something considered by republicans who backed these near total bans on abortion that eliminate a lot of the exception for life of the mother, cases of rape and incest that have existed for decades. >> well, this was most surely the outcome that all of us i

think predicted following the dobbs decision, that there would be this hodgepodge of state laws that women, their doctors would not understand what the law is and that some would deliberately withhold care based on their own set of standards. i think the environment we're in now is completely predictable and the kind of things that doctors should be able to do, basic things like save lives and do no harm. it seems they're in a circumstance where they can both do harm and not save lives. and i lay this right at the feet of the supreme court and so you can't on one hand say that, you know, you -- that we don't believe in the decisions that they've made and that they go against both public opinion and, in my view, the constitution and at the same time they have, you know, horrible ethics.

actually the problem is both. so i think that we're in a situation where women find themselves having to fend for their own lives because they're not really sure about whether their doctors will be able to make the appropriate medical decisions for them. >> it's an unbelievable moment but it is not lost on women and doctors in this country. dalia and donna, we need you to stick around. when we come back, we'll dig into this issue much more, the ethics issue at the supreme court. issue at the supreme court. - if i would've used kayak to book our car, we could have saved on our trip instead of during our trip. ughh - kayak. search one and done. for copd, ask your doctor about breztri. breztri gives you better breathing, symptom improvement, and helps prevent flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler

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attack on the court and on individual justices is new during my lifetime. we're being hammered daily and i think rather unfairly in a lot of instances and nobody, practically nobody is defending us and people are attacking us and saying look how low our approval being ratings are. what do you expect when they're engaging in unethical conduct, doing this and doing that. chief justice roberts tried to response to democrats and the judiciary committee and his response functionally saying the supreme court has a long history of policing itself. dalia and donna are still with us. this alito interview is so fascinating because, as you said, it seeks to put the fact that it is the institution that in 20 years has plunged the farthest, the fastest in public trust and he seems to blame it

as scrutiny. well, hell, we are all scrutinized like never before. i do my job in a fish bowl with a rapid fire with social media bombardment. but welcome to the big leagues. i mean, the idea that what has changed is the public scrutiny and appetite for transparency and ethics of one branch of government is absolute magical, delusional, insane thinking. >> i mean, we've talked about this, you and i, before, that this shoot the messenger strategy is so, so contemptible from an institution that is charged with protecting first amendment free speech rights. it's so fascinating that just two weeks ago the justices were pooh-poohing a case of online harassment who had to change her

whole life and leave the public sphere and the justices were reading out the emails threatening her life and laughing. and to hear from justice alito that when that kind of threat is directed toward the justices -- let's be clear, threats against justice kavanaugh life are unacceptable but the notion that free speech can be flower for everybody and everybody needs to speak and be able to criticize and we don't want to chill the free rights of people harassing women performers in colorado but free speech stops at the justices' front doorstep because they are feeling threatened just shows you how myopic their world view is and how narcissistic their world view is. the press is acting as though they're basically generals of

the court because the court will not set up a system to assess their own conduct. >> and let me address the idea that no one is sticking up for them. the last sort of viable old line republican institutional bunker exists specifically to protect the conservative judicial movement, the sort of don mcgann to mitch mcconnell pipeline from the federalist society. mitch mcconnell carried around a crumbled piece of paper when donald trump ran for president and said this is why i'm voting for him. it's the most alive constraint of conservatism as the piece of the party still worth being for all the other b.s. i mean, it is the most protected part of the conservative movement in america. the idea that they're not being protected is equally delusional and insane, donna. >> well, and there's -- look, to be clear there is no one who is

defending threats of violence or other kinds of threats against the supreme court. what's at issue here is traps transparency. when you read the stories, it is shocking. if you're a member of congress, if you're in the executive branch, if you're on the federal bench in every place other than the supreme court, you have to abide by a code of ethics. you're required to disclose why are income and to do that truthfully and not to hide. every place but the united states supreme court. and i really do think it's time to end and what these justices and what justice alito is complaining about is that because the press have been looking into this, they have exposed really the naked raw

unadulterated of the supreme court and its justices. the public deserves more from the highest court in the land. a little bit of transparency, a little bit more accountability. >> i promise that if george soros bought elena kagan's house, there would be wall-to-wall 24/7 congressional hearings run by republicans. the idea that republicans aren't interested in transparency and ethics for the supreme court also wreaks of hypocrisy and partisanship. thank you very much for being part of this conversation. we'll stay on it. ahead for us, some of president joe biden's best jokes from saturday night's white house correspondent dinner. we play them for you after a very short break. don't go anywhere. ak don't go anywhere. to treat my sleep apnea, i'm sleeping much better. in fact, it's making me think of doing other things i've been putting off. like removing that tattoo of your first wife's name.

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finish. >> the jokes were funny and it's true. president biden at 80 is seeking a second term. whether or not his age matters to you is on you. you decide. but you can count on it, republicans will absolutely make a huge issue of it on the campaign trail. they already are. so it stands to reason president biden might be well served to get there first, right, to talk about his age the way anybody else does to counter a line of attack everyone sees coming a mile away. if this weekend's correspondent dinner was any indication, it appears he's ready and has settled on a strategy, the age old i am in on your jokes approach. watch. >> you might think i don't like rupert murdoch. that's simply in the true. how could i dislike a guy who makes me look like harry stiles? you call me old? i call it being seasoned. you say i'm ancient.

i say i'm wise. you say i'm over the hill. don lemon would say that's a man in his prime. >> is that an understatement to say he brought the house down with some of his jokes? whether or not they translate to the campaign trail, i'm going to bring in my friend, an msnbc contributor to answer that. listen, i worked for a president who was very unpopular in chunks of the country, but he managed to at least sit at the table with them by making fun of himself before they could. and i wonder if on this thing, if president joe biden just traveled a pretty good distance toward sort of piercing the bubble by getting there first and making fun of his age? >> i think that's absolutely right. by the way, i thought bush was pretty good at most of those

white house correspondent dinners, although i think laura bush was even better when she pushed him off stage. that was actually really good. >> she was flawless. >> and it's also just good to see the president actually at the white house correspondents dinner again and not looking at the reporters as enemies of the state. so i think there was a lot of good and of course the dork, nerd political crew in washington, they love a good party. it was like dork prom for us in washington. but all that said, i do think that strategically it does make a lot of sense. look, i think it's how reagan dealt with it. reagan famously equipped to mondale that i am not going to holster your inexperience against you. i do think beating them to the punch and adding levity to it and trying to defang the issue

with making fun of it is really, really smart because, look, in the end you can't give a policy speech that says -- that sort of takes away the issue of people have with him being old. you can't -- you know, you can't say a couple of words and make this all go away. what you can do is you can embrace it and lean in on it and try to take away some of the essentialness of it. i think it's a really smart thing to do. now, whether or not it works with voters broadly who are most concerned with it, that's still yet to be seen, but i do like him, you know, making -- poking fun at himself. a lot of these younger voters who it's most problematic with, i think they'll get a chuckle out of it as well. >> and kamala, i know it's because you're worried.

i tragically lost my wife and children before me, you can have a serious side of it, but to go with the humor but the other half is, and kamala has this, you worry about my age, but heaven for bid, you know, she's got my back. that seems like the other half of the work and it may be a joke skit but that seems like the other piece of this. >> no, and they -- that's right. and they've been very strategic about it. look how prominently the vice president was featured in those reelects, right? >> yeah. >> looking back at it, i don't remember biden being in the obama re-elect video. i don't know if dick chen be any made your re-elect videos? >> i don't think so. >> they leaned into that and they tried to aleve some of those concerns which, by the

way, nicole, i've been very vocal about calling it out. a lot of it is sexist, right? a lot of the attention and the questions that is asked of this vice president was never asked of dick cheney, was never asked of -- was never asked of al gore. a woman with her resume, you know, elected statewide to the -- what, one of the most biggest, most economically powerful states in our union coming up through those poll six, elected to the senate, showed herself formidable in the senate and on the world stage sitting beside the guy doing the job, that woman is being questioned, her credentials are being questioned. no man with her resume would have the same questions about their credentials, and we've just got to call it out as it is, it's sexist. >> he knows that, too. as obama's vice president, no

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