it can be accepted -- this is a scary moment for our community that -- that report that you referenced earlier, an 11% increase, was barely a headline for many of the papers that are out there, or new shows, i think you might be one of the only ones who ever addresses it. and i think it is shocking to continue to live in an environment where we are afraid as a religious minority in this community and people not care. y in thi community and people not>> it ih more people were covering this. i'm glad you were able to come on tonight, talk about this, ilhan omar, we will leave it there, thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> that is all in on this tuesday night. you can watch the mehdi hasan show at 8 pm eastern, here, on msnbc. it streams weekly on peacock,

to. alex wagner tonight, starting right now. good evening alex. >> good evening mehdi. that is such an essential conversation that you, and the congresswoman were having. you too are the best people to have it. thank you for putting that on our air. >> thank you so much, i appreciate it. >> thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. we are following breaking news out of texas, where authorities believe that they have in custody the man accused of killing five of his neighbors with an ar-15 semi automatic rifle. officials will be holding a press conference, later this hour, and of course, we will bring you any details we learn, later this hour. but first, most americans have spent at least some of their life living paycheck to paycheck, not knowing how, or if they will be able to pay their bills each month. and now, it is not just americans, it is also the country, america, itself. the entire federal government is one month from being out of cash.

that is not an exaggeration. we are four months passed the debt limit. the treasury has been doing creative accounting since then. the treasury is warning for the government of the united states could truly be broke by june 1st. if republicans in congress do not raise the debt ceiling in the next 30 days, the global economy could collapse. so, given the stakes, this should be a real straightforward fix. who would want to use the debt ceiling as a negotiating wedge? >> hopefully, we are in good shape for the debt ceiling. i can't imagine anybody ever even thinking of using the debt ceiling as a negotiating watch. >> can't imagine, who? who would want to do that? turns out, the entire republican party. despite the fact that the gop raise the debt ceiling under president trump, they raised three times, every time republicans are in control of congress, and there is a democrat in the white house,

the raising of the debt ceiling becomes a drama. it becomes a crisis. now, you may think that doing something so reckless would hurt them, politically, but here is the thing. republicans of a neat trick. they pretend that they have nothing to do with it. >> they are extreme policies made our economy on this. now, they refused to responsibly raise the debt ceiling, instead of negotiating common sense solutions, they are putting the egg merrick on economy and crisis. shame on liberals in congress, tell them to stop playing partisan games. >> that out, made by the house republican aligned american action network, is part of the group's new six figure ad buy in. it runs commercials like those on the districts of 11 vulnerable house democrats. i know to anyone who's been following the debt ceiling fights over the past decade, that ad feels like madness. it feels like you have been plunged into opposite land.

but, the gop gaslighting seems to be working. this is a new poll for morning consult, and politico, showing that most voters, 37%, would blame both parties equally if the government defaulted on its national debt. only 24% of voters would blame republicans for a crisis that is, literally, manufactured by republicans. and 30% of voters would blame democrats. the gaslighting does not and there. today, we saw a spectacular effort by republicans to gaslight america when it comes to the recent ethics concerns facing the supreme court. you may be thinking, which ethics concerns? was it for the fact that decades, justice clarence thomas has accepted luxury trips from a republican billionaire megadonor? or is it about how that same billionaire megadonor bought a house from justice thomas while he was on the supreme court, and thomas did not disclose it? a house thomas's mom still lives in, despite the fact that

thomas does not own it? or was it about how thomas did not recuse himself for the 2020 election, even though his own wife urged top trump officials and state lawmakers to overturn the results of that election? or how justice neil gorsuch sold a vacation home is the biggest law firms despite that firm, frequently, having cases between the supreme court. on and on, the answer is, it is all of the above, and more. the senate judiciary committee held this hearing today is trying to hold ethics, and accountability, on the high court. they suggest some solutions. rather than get into all of that, republicans did this. >> this is not about trying to upgrade the ability of the court to be more transparent, it is about an effort to

destroy the legitimacy of this conservative court. >> today's hearing is an excuse to sling more mud at an institution. and the radical left continued attacks on justice with it is the last 31 and a half years. it is part of a sustained hateful discredit, and honest man. >> this is all a thuggish shakedown. many supreme court you have, they're america. sure would be a shame if something happened to it. >> i hope we don't need to see an assassination attempt. i don't want to see a justice killed before this body will take judicial security seriously, and stop its attempts to coerce and independent government. >> the left despises clarence thomas. they do not despise them as a conservative, there despise clearance columnist because he is a conservative african american. this is a political attack, and directed at a justice that they

hate. >> if you just watch the republicans at today's hearing, you may have thought that the problem here is left-wing dark money, and not, for example, the billionaires we know, for sure, have been courting conservative justices for decades. the thing is, a lot of americans only see the republican side of this. that gaslighting, it works. back in february, before the latest clarence thomas scandals, a poll from the economist in yougov showed that 62% of republicans had a favorable opinion of justice thomas. then, on april 6th, propublica published its huge investigative piece, which detailed all of the luxury chips that billionaire paid for justice thomas. trips that he did not disclose. two days after that, the economist in yougov, they ran that pole again. this time, they found that 67% of republicans had a favorable opinion of clarence thomas. here's a thing, 5%. it is independent voters,

within that time. so, republican spin, somehow, mid clarence thomas more popular, because he didn't disclose his joy rides with a billionaire. this is madness. so, what happens now? >> joining us now, claire mccaskill, former missouri senator, an msnbc political analyst. the great lisa rubin, nbc nbc legal analyst, thank you both for being here. lisa, it's clear from that hearing, republican lawmakers do not particularly care if the supreme court has lost the confidence of a great portion of the american public. shouldn't justices, themselves, lead to care? how has the court reacted to all of this? >> yes and no. on one hand, clarence thomas's ethical breaches are so serious, you would think that all members of the court, if not most members of court, would be offended by that, and want to police themselves before congress polices them. on the other hand, we have seen

through the weaponization of the federal government subcommittee house judiciary, what it is that happens when congressional oversight runs amok. remember, they are doing what they are doing, right now, in the name of the january six committee. in other words, the democrats did this, they issued it subpoenas while parallel criminal investigation is going on. we can do that to. and, if i am one of the liberal justices on this court, i may be thinking, right now, congress passing a law demanding ethics reform from us wouldn't be so bad, but what happens when the shoes on the other foot? >> they are looking at three, four, eight years hence, and are concerned about what happens if they let congress enforce better oversight under the dealings of the court? >> it is a long term institutional concern, as a sort term, how do we deal with clarence problem? >> i would love to get the thoughts on the performances that we saw at this hearing.

with the latest, i think just before the hearing, marshall blackburn and nine other republican senators introduced the protect our supreme court justices act. this would increase the maximum jail time for violating the federal law that prohibits attempts at influencing the decision-making process of a judge from one year, to five years. basically, a chilling effect on those who would, otherwise, potentially, call out the behavior of a supreme court justice. what is the republican minority in the senate doing here? >> they are trying to distract everyone from the real ethical concerns that had surfaced. let's get real here. we have a man standing $10 million, trying to influence public policy in america, and he gives lavish gifts to the supreme court justice who is, at the point of the sphere, in trying to move those policies to the right. so, that will happen after

thomas got on the supreme court. they are not friends ahead of time. and you know, is as mother living rent free, courtesy of this billionaire? the idea that that would be exposed, and we would say nothing? we all go about our business on every day the supreme court? of course, there needs to be a hearing. of course, there needs to be public awareness of these ethical transgressions. what the republicans are doing is shameful. it is our new method of performance politics. they want to distract you from what is really going on, to the signing object over here is going to the first amendment, in the right of every american to criticize opinions on the supreme court. >> lisa, it is buying to its conceive that clarence thomas tried to establish to criticize the court that is behavior that should not be tolerated. they are weaponizing the notion of criticism in saying, we are going to crack down on the critics. there is so much criticism flying at the court, right now.

so, i guess i wonder, to clare's point about accountability here, you referred to the fact that there hasn't been a groundswell of support among all of the justices for better oversight, right? you know the chief justice roberts decided not to show up to this hearing, and instead, sends a letter, and a statement on ethics, principles, and practices, that was signed by all nine justices. a lot of folks are saying, why are catalunya brown jackson, elena kagan playing ball with this at all? do you feel like that calculation on their part to change at all, in the coming weeks, as the story continues to be, at best, -a-thon in the courtside? >> the supreme court is a bit like a marriage, and the only thing that is going on inside of the 9 to 5. so, on some level, like i said before, i am surprised. i do believe, there are a number of justices, on both sides of the aisle, who do their job with integrity, and with honesty. on the other hand, this is a

group of people who believe, strongly, that separation of powers demands that the court to police itself, lest we have a situation where congress is in the hands on both sides. it sort of starts to ride herd on them, and ways that are worse for democracy. >> let's go back to michael lunyk. it is basically in support of congressional oversight, and he said, effectively, i am grossly paraphrasing, because there is no built-in oversight on the court, all they have a say reputation. the country must abide by their judgment. literally, they are judges, their judgment matters. if half the country believes that they have exercised very poor judgment, even if there is no conflict here, the appearance of that conflict is cause for a loss of fundamental belief in the court, and that is all the cortes. >> right. all the court has its own reputations. of course, they are there on

the court for those ethical problems. it was a court who appeared to be out of step with one another. when we see them snapping at each other publicly, there was the legitimacy of the court either. it was so to the leader of the dobbs opinion. it was beyond criticism, as we had noted, and they had snipe at each other, and others who had a snake -- stake in their outcomes, but it does nothing to shore up american confidence in the court. that must be part of the calculus for those who are not the wrongdoers. >> i am just so -- nothing should surprise me at this point. the degree to which republicans that were legitimate concerns is trying to blame democrats. i have to talk to you about the debt ceiling. the and we have played for everybody about how the debt ceiling, the looming crisis, is

the fault of liberal partisans who want to create, or manufacture, a drama for the american public. and yet, that messaging seems to work, if you read the polls. >> i think the polls show, nobody is sure how this would work, or who is to blame. it was a bit of a confusing mix. i've seen this movie, i've been in this movie before. i understand what is happening here. the debt ceiling was raised, and headset under republican presidents and, by the way, they have spent like crazy under trump. the debt, and the deficit, all went up under donald trump and, the republicans who supported them. they supported all of that. this is phony baloney, the debt ceiling was raised or, there was some kind of spending that would allow kevin mccarthy to get through the house, and i'll tell you what, the political

call out we will figure out the debt ceiling. if republicans are seen as blocking it at that moment, there will be serious political fallout for the republican party, our economy will go into a tailspin. >> clare, can i ask you? also, the republicans will raise it, but there is no way that president biden will let the country go off a cliff, right? you are betting here. he is the person that will, ultimately, it is a reasonable person in the room on the hostile snicker she shuns. it is a good thing for the country, but also, republicans will try to exploit that as far as they can, no? >> it was driving at a breakneck speed towards a cliff, and biden will be throwing down the strips of nails to try to get the flat tire to stop it. make no mistake, don't say that biden is going to save it. mccarthy is the one who is causing it, and mccarthy is the one who is saving it. if biden can't get it done,

then it is mccarthy, and the republicans fault. for the first time, in the history of this country, we will say to the world, we just won't pay or bills. we just won't pay or bills. so, really, i think, biden will. by the way, he'll help us political image if he gets a deal. that is what he ran on. it's a win-win for biden. i think the one who's in political peril here, and he would admitted if he gave him truth serum, is kevin mccarthy. >> i bet he would. who can know what goes on and kevin mccarthy's head. i tend to agree with you. claire mccaskill, lisa rubin, thank you both for joining me. >> you get. >> we have a lot more to get to this evening, including day one of the writers of many of your favorite shows walking off the job. we will talk about why they are striking, and what comes next. plus, we have jaw-dropping testimony in the case of the woman accusing donald trump of raping her, years ago. what her longtime friend says she heard, only minutes after that alleged attack.

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>> from the moment e. jean carroll sat on the witness stand as part of her battery lawsuit against donald trump, trump's defense lawyers have made it clear that their strategy is to poke holes. to inject doubt, and undermine

her account of how trump allegedly raped her in a new york city department store in the mid 90s. allegations trump has repeatedly denied. as part of the strategy, trump's lawyer, joe tacopina, has been bombarding her with questions like, why didn't she scream during the attack? why didn't she call the police? why did she instead call a friend? why didn't she burned the dress she was wearing the day of the assault? tacopina's questions became so aggressive, and repetitive, that the federal judge providing over the case, a judge named luis kaplan, had to intervene. today, during the testimony of lisa birnbach, the friend that e. jean carroll called immediately after the assault, allegedly, lawyers leaned into that strategy again. they cited burn box past criticism of the former president, and they attempted to frame her testimony as politically motivated. birnbach admitted to criticizing trump in the past, but she said, criticism did not take away from what she heard

from her friend, eugene carroll, all those years ago. e. jean said to me, many times, he pulled down my tights, he pulled down my tights. almost like she couldn't believe it. she was still processing what had just happened to her. question, how did she hound? birnbach, breathless. hyper ventilating. emotional. her voice was doing all kinds of things. what would you say after miss carroll described this to you? birnbach, even though i knew my children didn't know the word, i ducked out of the room. my phone was wireless. and i said, i whispered, e. jean, he raped to you. that is not the only shocking account in the worker today. they saw the trump groped her in an airplane in the 70s. he was trying to kiss me, trying to pull me towards him. he was grabbing my breasts. it was like he had 40 million hands. to carols lawrence, this testimony, and the testimony of other women, it speaks to the

idea that trump's alleged sexual protection fit a pattern of behavior. this pattern made, precisely, what lawyer george connally had in mind when he bumped into e. jean carroll at a party, in new york, in 2019. he says, carol mentioned she was thinking of suing trump, to which conway replied, almost instantly, quote, you have a case. joining us now is not lawyer, and columnist, george conway. george, great to have you on the show. you were there when this idea crystallized in e. jean's head that, they could go to court with this. could you talk a little about why the pattern that would build a case against trump. >> my thinking about it had evolved. i had not thought much about all of the sexual assaults, and allegations until that summer. i saw a threat online where a woman in massachusetts had to put together, on twitter, all

of these different allegations with all of the different winner women, that they thought. that is incredible is immense. it was right around the time, maybe right after, jeanne came out for this book with the new york magazine article. it got me thinking, this is a strong case. i wrote an article to, trying to make a twitter that but then i said, i wrote an article, i wrote an op-ed in the washington post and they believed, we need a rape accusation against bill clinton. they do mobility vegan carroll because her allegations are supported, not only by contemporaneous witnesses who heard her tell the story within days, if not minutes behind this in the case of elisa birnbach, and then, you have all of the other cases.

so, one thing that we have learned, that i have learned from reading all of the metoo journalism by ronan farrow, the new yorker, jodi kantor, and recalling the new york times, it is the things that -- the sexual assault is very very difficult when it is just two people in a room, and there's nobody else. but, the corroboration that you can get from the contemporaneous statements where a woman shot to goes to a friend and says, i can't believe what just happened to me. and then, the men, the men who do these things, do the more than once. dozens of times, in fact, as is the case with donald john trump. >> with impunity. >> with impunity. because they think it is their sense of entitlement. they think they are a star, and they can do it. >> which is articulated by the soon to be president. >> absolutely. >> he lays out the playbook,

and apparently, allegedly, was executing on it for decades. >> it wasn't donald trump for going with the truth. >> i won't get into -- i mean. the defense that his team is mounting, is this relentless barrage of questions, meant to get at the fine details of the story, in an effort to undermine its ferocity, in the case of e. jean carroll. or, to say it was politically motivated, on the part of lisa burned back. what do you make of that, with sound like the strength of the argument from the prosecution? >> there is a legitimate way, and a very delicate way that lawyers can cross examine victims, or alleged victims, of sexual assault. they have an obligation to do it, as a matter of their professional responsibility. they have to keep to the facts. i remember watching once they,

watched instruction videos for the famous miami defense lawyer did this astonishingly good cross-examination in the william kennedy smith case. he showed how you do it. you do it respectfully, you do it kindly, and this happens, this happens, and you stack the things that way against the complainant story. tacopina did do some of that, from what i can tell from reading the live tweeting, and some of the transcript. but, they did it in a ham fisted away. so, stuff like -- >> to the consternation of the judge. >> it is okay to ask, okay, you didn't call such and, so you don't call your mother, you didn't call the police, it is okay to respectfully go through that. they went back to them saying, it is all legitimate questions -- it is appropriate to present

that to the jury. so, stuff like, i don't know what the tone was, because i wasn't there, the way lisa was. if you are asking questions like that, oh you didn't cry on tv, but you cried here, well, that is just outrageous. >> i think it would backfire in front of a jury. >> george, you are a lawyer, but you are also an outspoken critic of this president. >> the evidence reflects it. >> the fact of the matter is, trump's numbers have never been higher, and there is this weird thing unfolding, where the guy is the front runner in the republican nomination, who could have a summer of criminal either trials, or indictments being charged against him. it is the trump phenomenon, does that supersede legal realities? how, and, why is he stronger?

does any of this week in his standing with the public? >> this weekends of standing with the normal public in the center of the electorate who will go either way. they can go to strengthened his base, and they have, basically, dubbed themselves a bunker. where they are refusing to listen to, and give any credence, to anything negative about donald trump. once he let that little doubt in, he's not a nice guy. he doesn't always tell the truth. you have to admit, you start losing the ability to deny reality. they don't want to admit they are wrong. four things are going to, basically, happen. within the next 18 months. they're going to be indicted to, or three more times. the second is, i think he will

get the nomination anyway, and i think that the system is set up that a person who is the front runner, and has a plurality of the votes doesn't get a majority of the votes, although he seems to be able to do that right now, according to the polls. they will get the nomination, the rules are stacked in their favor, and i think he is going to foment violence. i think we have seen, from his truth social posts and, we have seen from his posts in this case, he wants to intimidate anybody who speaks out against him. he wants to encourage people to believe, he is persecuted, and if there is violence that results, he is going to say, these are the things that happened. that is what he said on january 6th. the last thing is, and i am hopeful that he will lose the general election, precisely because i think it will exhaust the american public. having the -- >> the american public are tired, just to be speaking on behalf of some friends.

even some republicans are tired. some of them would like to see him roll off into the sunset, and never come back from the spotlight, or whatever. but, they don't have the physical syringe or, the moral courage to call in that. >> the fortitude to say that. >> heroes? anybody? >> george conway, thank you for making the time. great to see you. we have more to come tonight, including why some of your favorite television shows are going dark. not this one, however. that's coming up next. coming up next. ♪ there it is. that feeling you get... when you can du more with less asthma. it starts with dupixent. dupixent is not for sudden breathing problems. it's an add-on treatment for specific types of moderate-to-severe asthma. and can help improve lung function for better breathing in as little as two weeks. dupixent helps prevent asthma attacks...

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benefits. payroll. compliance. trinet. people matter. tv and film writers, across the country, hit just gone on strike. it is strike that had delimited for creative people who work with rioters. actors, directors, and late night hosts. you need to get on the air that night in front of a live audience without any rioters. which is how we got this incredible moment with conan o'brien, filling airtime on live tv by spinning his wedding ring. >> here we go. susie, are you ready to time this? we're going for 41 seconds. if you do this, it will be television history. here we go, and --

that's a good spin. that's a good spin. oh yes. look, oh -- okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. wait! susie, what was the time on that spin? it looked to me. >> 36 seconds. >> ultimate indignity. trust me, there is time to do it again. let's not be in a rush to do it right away. >> that is the stuff of tv legends. the 2007 writers strike, lasting 100 days, during which

time conan o'brien, personally, paid the salaries of 75 rioters on his show, to help them make ends meet. now, today, for the first time in 15 years, the union representing 11,000 scripted tv, and film writers across the country, has, once again, gone on strike. just like last time, there is a lot of support for this union. today, late night legend, jay leno, went to the picket line to show his support, and handed donuts to striking rioters. this was stephen colbert, last night, announcing that a show would go dark during the strike. the >> everybody including myself hopes both sides reach a deal. they think that the rioters demands aren't unreasonable. i'm a member of the guilt. i support collective bargaining. this nation owes so much to unions. they are the reason -- [applause] and this is true. unions are the reason why we have weekends. and, by extension, why we have

tgi fridays. so, the next time you enjoy a whisky glazed ablaze burke or, you think a union. >> you heard stephen colbert there say that he hopes both sides reached a deal. on one side of this fight, the alliance of motion picture television producers. it represents a major tv, and film studios. you should mention a comcast, the corporation that owns msnbc, are always represented by that group. on the other side, the writers guild of america. it represents all of the tv, and film writers in their negotiations with those studios. the rioters killed, negotiating one big contract, with all those studios, and that contract sets basic pay, and work standards for rioters, across the country. i should also mention, the writers guild of america represents workers, right here, an msnbc. including most of the staff on the show. but, msnbc workers are not covered by the same contract as scripted film and tv workers, which is why my producers are not on strike right now, which

is why i am not sitting here spinning my various jewelry. now that we've gotten all that out of the way, this is why the rioters are on strike. in the last 15 years, since the last rider strike in 2007, the tv and film industry has changed, dramatically. which, probably, you know. the rise of streamers like netflix, apple tv, and disney+ has disrupted the industry bigly. this has changed the way that rioters are compensated, also, bigly. production companies rely on smaller teams of riders to pump out more content. it is film and tv writers making 23% of what they were a decade ago, thanks, and large part, to streaming. now, the rioters are demanding pay, working conditions, and the new digital age. it was it was the gig economy on their workforce, and their immovable stance on this negotiation has betrayed a

commitment to further devaluing the profession of writing. the studio released her own statement saying, they remain united to reach their desire that is mutually beneficial, to rioters, and the health of the industry. this is a story about movies, tv shows, and whether or not your favorite programs will be back this fall. this is also that major technological shifts have changed the way arts, and culture, and even journalism get made would not be the better. my next guest has written a book a, very timely book, about this very phenomenon that is for this conversation, we'll be right after the break, stay with us. with us. but do i have to give up sweets? if you work out a diet plan, nothing is off limits. you dropped it! i don't know if i can afford all these prescriptions. we've got discount programs, you've got options. i'm just glad i have you to talk to about this.

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that, to this day, remains loyal to trump, and probably consumes mostly right-wing media. but back in the day, back just a decade earlier, it wasn't really like this. as ben smith describes in his new book, big media sites like gawker, and the huffington post, and buzzfeed, they use their platforms to generate clicks and traffic. they were not necessarily in pursuit of advancing one candidate or ideology. they were there to monetize the attention of an audience. as editor and chief of buzzfeed news from 2011 to 2020, smith helped establish the sites bona fide news department. but even from that perch, he admits he didn't see how right-wing figures would later co-op the blocking and social media structures that some had once believed would further progressive caucus. smith writes, i certainly hadn't realize the extent to which right-wing populism always seemed to be sitting just down the white ikea table from this progressive internet scene, looking over its shoulder, learning its lessons. gasoline can create useful energy but it can also simply

burn. and by 2023, it seemed clear that the power of this new social energy had been to destroy any institution from the media to the political establishment that attached. those of us who work in media, politics, and technology, are largely concerned now with figuring out how to hold these failing institutions together, or to build new ones that are resistant to the forces we helped unleash. joining us now is the man, the author himself, ben smith, cofounder and editor chief of buzzfeed, and author of this new book, traffic, genius, rivalry, and delusion, and the billion dollar race to go viral. which is out today. ben, congratulations on this book. i don't know when you had time to write it. but you are prolific in many senses of the word. i guess, i was very much struck by, i'm not gonna call it a maricopa, but this idea that, you know, in this period of this great innovation and, you know, building new sites, and things that had never existed before, and the optimism inherent in that, something

dark was a foot which is this sort of -- giving another set of people the keys, the rosetta stone if you will, to building sites and learning about audiences, which would later be bastardized for totally partisan ideological purposes. >> yeah, and thanks for having me on, and for the kind words. i mean, i do think, you know, i started writing the book, it felt like this moment, in some sense, was coming to an end. i wanted to go back and just like figure out this thing we all live through. and i think the thing was that surprised me most was going back and saying that there was, you know, this early internet seen where the explicit goal was to elect barack obama. for the huffington post, that was a part of the point. you know, and everyone just took it for granted in that world, that these were college kids, young people, newly on the internet, they were democrats. >> right. >> barack obama visited facebook. it sort of went without saying that facebook was a democratic institution. but when you look -- >> and then -- >> and then, everybody thought

that the point of this whole world, this whole new digital world is the election of barack obama. you know, in fact, when you look back at the high point of crowning achievement of this sort of new social media world is the election of donald trump. >> donald trump, absolutely. and if you look at the figures who were present at the early sites like gavin mcinnis, who of course later would go on to found the proud boys. he is one of the cofounders of vice, which is anything but a sort of radical right-wing publication. >> and this chemist came to me as a surprise as i was just reporting out all the characters of this early seen, you know at best feet, where i later worked, the guy who founded 4chan was working out of that office. andrew breitbart, the leader sort of key, part of inventor of these new culture wars, was the cofounder of huffington post as well. gavin mcinnis, as you say, the leading proud boy, was advice. steve bannon kind of came to check out huffington post and learn from it. and then -- and in some ways, i think they

adopted the license more fully than anybody, than most people on the left. they were most interested in tearing down these institutions that actually -- at one point, i want to see them in 2016 and trump tower, and i was then the editor of buzzfeed. and he was just totally puzzled at why hadn't buzzfeed go all in for bernie sanders that he had for trump, you know, not because he loved bernie sanders per se, but just that's where the traffic was, why just not follow the heat wherever it leads. >> certainly bannon has built a stunning amount of grift on the back of like his intellectual properties, if you will. but your sense is that it was always for the traffic. it was always for the money. it was sort of a part of the market that did not have an adequate response. so, they fill that gap. it wasn't necessarily an ideological drive that led these folks to ultimately found the institutions that they've created. >> you know, i think these things are all tied up

together. you know, i don't think it's quite that simple. but i do think there were these new tools that turned out to be just perfect for serving this very angry moment. i mean, facebook in particular, you know, it was this great tool -- you know, for spreading these, this new -- real angry energy. and as facebook started to get freaked out by it and adjusted to it, and started tweaking it starts to say, wait, wait we don't want people sharing fake stories about hillary clinton body doubles. we wanted to move on to more meaningful stories that people engage with. and then, what that would be was like a donald trump meme and you're applying, kill yourself on the comments. and, then that being shared because the algorithm has decided decided that you are deeply engaged. you, know sort of a combination, like, i think the real politics of how people felt. and a system that was sort of designed to amplify, but it's probably kind of worst and us. >> why do you think that the people who own these sites, whether it's mark zuckerberg, or to some degree elon musk,

even jonah peretti, are still reluctant to adopt the mantle of publishers, because they have become the purveyors of information. and there's just this deep, like, abiding resistance to really embracing that. it's a headache, for sure, but the reality is, you know, facebook's and -- it's not just a website, it's not just to connect people, it's where people get their information. the same is true for twitter. the efforts to kind of figure out how to make twitter responsible have been so fraught, so ham-handed. i won't even comment about what musk is doing. but there seems to be a deep-seated culture, like, it's antithetical to who these guys are. >> yeah, i think you're right. i mean, i think to some degree, you know, it is nice to have free content rather than content to pay for, if you are in business, you get to keep all the money. so, some of those commercials -- in some ways, you say it's ideological. and i don't mean left, right ideological. i mean the sense that we can do away without the old institutions, the old east coast media. and if we just sort of throw it up to the crowd, that would

replace us with something better. it's actually kind of utopian, i think. and if you go back and read things from the early 2000s, from the time when we're probably both writing, you know, there was a sense of like, wow, this was gonna be this wide open world this can overthrow, like a corrupt establishment media that had gotten the iraq war so wrong. there is a lot of real optimism, i think, for good reason. but, you know, at some point, i think they were really unable to let go of that fantasy. and i think when you look at the trajectory of those businesses now, of those sites now, like, i don't think it was a good business decision among other things. >> yeah, and now, we have, you know, buzzfeed is shattering buzzfeed, buzzfeed news is shuttering. vices may be filing for bankruptcy. it's a very important time to be writing something like this. it's also, i don't know, it's kind of a depressing moment to kind of take stock of what just happened to the country, and what happened to the internet in the last 20, we'll, 15 years. >> yeah, and it's a very strange moment. it's just really a trip to go back, and see how we all thought about it then, and how

it turned out. and i think how people could've made different decisions along the way. >> and we have known each other for quite some of that time, my friend. >> that whole time, yeah. >> congratulations on the book, ben smith, the book is traffic, thank you for your time, buddy. >> thank you so much for having me on. >> we will be right back. but i just switched to verizon. (cecily) so you got an awesome network... (seth) and when i switched, i got to choose the phone i wanted. for free. not bragging. (cecily) you're bragging. (neighbor) oh, he's bragging. (seth) who, me? never. oh, excuse me. hello, your royal highness, sir... (cecily) okay, that's a brag. (seth) hey, mom. i gotta call you back. (vo) switch and choose the phone you want, like the incredible iphone 14, on us. (cecily) on the network worth bragging about. verizon love you. have a good day, behave yourself. like she goes to work at three in the afternoon and sometimes gets off at midnight. she works a lot, a whole lot. we don't get to eat in the early morning. we just wait till we get to the school.

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