gerrymander a system, or suppress the votes so that those margins that the governor, that abbott ran, probably not as high as they actually are, given the fact that texas is the hardest state in the country to cast a vote. and so, if you didn't have those restrictions in the place, those margins would probably be, you know, be a little lower. but, that shows the bankruptcy of that party. they are so concerned with just losing their election, they're willing to, you know, put it risk their reputation, their place in history, simply so that they win. and again, this is all about the acquisition and the retention of power at all costs. >> former attorney general eric holder, thank you so much. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> that is all in on this wednesday night. alex wagner starts right now, with my good friend, alex wagner. >> you know, chris, to eric holder's last point there, it's as if -- i frequently wonder if you can

give some of these republican officeholders truth serum. and get out why they were doing this. like, why get into the whole election came? what would they say? because -- >> well i think -- >> power is one thing. but to really have no principles that you can particularly articulate -- >> other than winning. i mean, and texas it's particularly interesting, and it's interesting in a lot of the states. cnn missouri, ohio -- 's not like you guys are on the run. you're doing fine! you don't have to rig the rules. the paranoia is so -- >> the paranoia, yeah. but to holders point, if there wasn't so much -- >> no, there weren't. it's a confession. >> it's a snake eating its own tale. >> exactly. >> thank, you my friend, as always. today, the florida state house of representatives cast a bill that prevents colleges and universities in florida from spending any money on anything that promotes diversity, equity, and inclusion. the state senate already gave this bill the greenlight, so not heads to florida governor

ron desantis, who will undoubtedly sign the thing. now, if you live in the real world, and if the words diversity and equity and inclusion sound like a positive things to you, what happened today in florida feels like madness. but if you're a fox news viewer, this might all make perfect sense. it might even seem overdue. let me take a step back. this is christopher ruffo. he's now one of the people that governor desantis has appointed to the board of trustees that oversees new college in florida. that's a school that we, on the show, and then quite a bit of reporting on. it is the school that governor desantis is essentially trying to make the test case for anti woke education. christopher ruffo is also likely the reason your conservative uncle wouldn't stop talking about critical race theory, or see our team, at thanksgiving last year. ruffo is even the reason former president trump became obsessed with crt. and september of 2020, ruffo

went on tucker carlson's show did not only make his case against crtc, but to literally tell trump what he thought should be done about it. >> i'd like to make explicit, the president of the white house -- it's within their authority and power to immediately issue an executive order abolishing critical race theory trainings from the federal government. >> thanks to reporting from the washington post, we actually know that former president trump was watching tucker carlson's show when christopher ruffo made that request. three days later, trump's budget chief sent out a memo demanding that no federal money be used for crtc. at the end of the month, trump had issued an executive order to the same effect. but it wasn't just trump who was listening. christopher ruffo was on fox all the time. he appeared so often that he converted a room in his house into a television studio, complete with professional lighting and an on air light in the hallway, so that his wife and his children would know when not to interrupt him.

fast forward nearly three years later, and christopher ruffo believes he has won. but, conservatives must move the fight from ideology to bureaucracy. we've won the debate against crtc. now, it's time to dismantle dei. deede i meaning diversity, equity, and inclusion. dei dei is the new crt. get ready to hear about it this thanksgiving. and that is why -- at its colleges. but this isn't just the work of christopher ruffo. this is also the work of fox news. fox platformed ruffo and helped make crt, and by extension, dei, the right-wing buzzwords that they are today. as unfortunate as that is, if you care about diversity and equity and inclusion in society, as unfortunate as that is, it shouldn't be surprising. because this focus on stoking grievance and division, that is fox news's bread and butter.

when you think back to the early 2010s, it is easy to just think of donald trump when you think of the rise of birtherism. the completely unfounded conspiracy that barack obama wasn't born in this country. yes, donald trump was definitely obsessed with that conspiracy. but the platform that was his microphone, the platform that is made that conspiracy theory a mainstream talking point, the platform is fox news. >> i'm starting to wonder myself whether or not he was born in this country. >> it's not going away in your mind? donald trump, we all know was born in this country? >> i just -- say i believe you are born in the united states. >> he could put an end to this if he released his birth certificate, and lou dobbs's right to raise the question. why doesn't he release? >> the birth certificate as this whole segment of his life that we know nothing about. >> he's bringing attention to it. >> this is what he thinks.

>> where's his college record? >> what if he has break obama's real brett certificate? >> oh, no! >> and that's what got him the vp job? >> blackmail. >> it's the blackmailing! >> fox news has always leaned in on a very particular kind of story. something readily acknowledged by fox news employees themselves. and at a feature articles the new york times published on tucker carlson last year, the times noted that in the past few years, fox has leaned harder into stories of, quote, illegal immigrants, or non-white americans caught in acts of crime or violence. network executives ordered up such coverage so relentlessly during the trump years that some employees referred to it by a grim nickname. the brown menace. this is been fox news is mainstay for a long time. fearmongering about the brown menace. that the person who took this fearmongering in turn didn't to a professional skill was tucker carlson. we might remember that in june

of 2020, in the wake of george floyd's death, and in the midst of the black lives matter protests that followed it, tucker carlson went all in on the brown menace. and one of his shows that month, he spent the first part of the show just listing of the unarmed black americans killed by police in the previous year, and why the police said they killed them. carlson made a huge deal out of how menacing these unarmed black americans seemed to the police. another night that month, carlson ranted against black lives matter protesters, saying this moment is, quote, definitely not about black lives. and remember that when they come for you. and what made what carlson said that month so disturbing wasn't just that this was the host of a key major cable news program, but that he was finding an audience for it. that month, parker carlson's show broke the record for the best viewership numbers in the history of cable news. so, stories about the brown

menace are tucker carlson's whole thing. they have been fox news's whole thing for a very long time now. and that, all of that, is what makes this news so perplexing. the new york times has published a text that the times alleges led to carlson's firing. this is a text from tucker carlson to a producer. the times reports that fox news executives were made aware of this at the very end of their defamation ago she asians with the dominion voting systems. the text had been redacted and -- public court filings, but people close to the lawsuit disclosed to the contents of the texts to the times. the times reports that once executives learned of this text, they made the decision to give tucker carlson the boot. the first thing i want you to notice is the time stamp here. this text was sent on january 7th, 2021. an hour after the attack on the capitol. quote, a couple weeks ago, i was watching a video of people fighting on the street in washington. a group of trump guys

surrounded an anti-fight kid and started pounding the living [bleep] out of him. it was three against one, at least. jumping a guy like that is dishonourable, obviously. it's not how white men fight. again, it's not how white men fight. and he continues, yeah, suddenly i find myself rooting for the mob against the man, hoping they'd hit him harder, kill him. i really wanted them to hurt the kid. i could taste it. then, somewhere deep in my brain, and alarm went off. this isn't good for me. and becoming something i don't want to be. the antifa creep is a human being. much as i despise what he says and does, much as i'm sure i'd hate him personally if i knew him, i shouldn't gloat over his suffering. i should be bothered by it. i should remember that somewhere, somebody probably loves this kid, and would be crushed if he was killed. if i don't care about those things, if i reduced people to their politics, how my better than he is?

now, the idea that this single text is what tucker carlson was fired for is sort of tough to believe. because it pales in comparison to the years of undiluted hatred and unvarnished racism that were core parts of his show. core parts of what fox news does most successfully. so there's a lot to unpack here. not gonna have some expert help in doing so in just a second. but before we do, i want to play one more thing for you. this is video obtained by media matters. it's tucker carlson describing his feelings for the dominion lawyer who deposed him in the defamation case. >> the amount of -- it's so unhealthy, the hate that i felt for that man. i never feel that way, you know? i don't want to feel that way. [inaudible]

but that guy? he triggered the [bleep] out of me. >> it was so unhealthy, the hate i felt. it's totally bad for you to feel that way. so said tucker carlson. joining us now are eddie glaad, chair of the department of african american studies at princeton university, and jamele -- co-host of the unclear and present danger podcast. thank you both for joining me tonight. professor, how do you square what carlson and fox news have done to america but is very clear acknowledgment that hate is cancerous? what it's done to his body? >> it's almost a kind of distillation of the work that mobs do and attacking. imagine the people who participate in a lynching. i mentioned them individually, as persons who think of

themselves as decent. but getting caught up in the frenzy of the mob, and suddenly find themselves bloodthirsty. and the scapegoat, remember, works as a way to consolidate a sense of fragmented identity. that's two academic. which i mean? there's a sense in which people feel a sense of terror and panic about who they are, when the incoherence of america makes itself known, there's a need for the scapegoat. the violence directed towards the other, whether it's black people, whether it's immigrants, whether it's gay people, whether it's women, right? that scapegoat then becomes the basis for a sense of coherence. a sense of identity. a sense of community. and in the midst of the violence, that could be a tinge of guilt. but this is the workings of the mob. and the mob does what it does. >> and tucker carlson does when he does, and fox lives another day. jamele, i don't want to call it

-- it's not self reflected. but there's something happening in both these uncensored moments off camera, that media matters has gotten a hold of, and the texts themselves. it's not self a trade. and some knowledge meant that what is happening to him, and the way that he's thinking about things, is poisonous. and yet, he still needs to double down on his superiority. and the texts, is adamant that white men don't fight like this. that if he enjoys the blood sport of it all, and he's no better than the antifa kid who's getting the living crap beaten out of him. how do you understand this correspondence? >> i think i see it in similar terms to professor wild. for me, the key thing is his statement that this is not how white men fight. which as a parenthetical,

thinking about mob violence in american history, the history of lynching, it just may well be, but that fact check aside, it's clear that carlson imagines his whiteness to be something of a noble characteristic. it causes him deep psychological distress when he is confronted with the reality that it is not. that he is not actually some better kind of person -- and he has to quickly rationalize that. having said that, i also want to say the part of me, you know, part of me wants to go down this road of psychoanalyst -- psychoanalysis of tucker carlson, but part of me also realizes that he is very much a cynical operator. we know that he was not actually a fan of donald trump, for example. he said derogatory things about donald trump. very clearly sees his audience

as, the lack of a better term, a bunch of rubs. and looking at his transformation over the course of his career, you can make a very good case that he just says what he needs to say depending on the audience he happens to have. and, that to me, is also a part of the story. but this is a profoundly cynical person weaponizing, really, the worst impulses that we have for his own self aggrandizement has a television personality, and for the agenda of his employers, which is upper income tax cuts, and strengthening the power of large corporations and the very wealthy society. >> i do want to play him as a figure in history, professor. he represents so much of the inheritance of america on the topic of race. right? this idea of white nobility, white gentility, has been used since slavery times to justify violence against people of

color. and tucker carlson is no different in that attitude than white people were in the 1700s. and i think it shouldn't be shocking, but it remains shocking to me, and i think it's worthy of calling it out when we see it. the idea that the day after january 6th, when a largely white mob attacks the capitol, and this man is drawing a line saying, this isn't how white people fight. well, yesterday, the day before he wear that tat next, we saw how white people fought. >> absolutely. passed is never passed. was's never was. and so, what do we see? we see this kind of through line. we can trace the great replacement theory back to 1790, the first immigration act, which establishes access to u.s. citizenship for white people only. when whiteness hasn't even been consolidated as a category. immigration loss shows us this. take us back to 1919 with medicine grants book, the passing of the white race. 1920, the rising tide of color against white supremacy.

right? and how that's connected to the french riders, committee, who writes the great replacement. before him -- the camp of saints. that's 1973. all of this stuff around whiteness has everything to do with the tricky magic necessary to maintain this illusion that somehow, white people carry with them a sense of superiority, which means that they should be valued more than others. and tucker carlson sits in that sweet spot, and fox exploits. >> you know, jamelle, as the professor so brilliantly says, the exploitation on behalf of fox followed this cannot be ignored. right? we started the segment talking about what's happening in florida with ron desantis. the mainstreaming of anti crt, anti dei, the republican party basically taking its orders, and some ways, from fox news, as a phenomenon that shaping american life today.

and i wonder if you think, well, what you think of that, and also the degree to which the oster of tucker carlson has any -- is a cause for any sort of introspection on the part of republicans who parrot this garbage and make it law. >> i doubt there will be any cause for introspection among republicans because of tucker carlson's ouster. i think there may be because of the fact that this crusade against dei, when and crtc, and what have you, which always seems to be some term of abuse, this crusade against that doesn't actually seem to be resonating with american voters very much. again and again, when you ask voters, do you think your kid should learn about slavery in school? do you value diversity in schools and the workplace? americans say yes. maybe this doesn't necessarily filter down entirely to the political commitments, but it

does suggest that, like, the republican assassination with this may not be paying the political dividends they may hope. rhonda sentences decline as a presidential candidate may indicate this. if there's any chance for introspection, it's gonna be because the stuff isn't really working the way they hoped it would work to win elections. and not to repeat myself too much, but i also think it's worth saying that part of the goal of this, talking about what fox -- part of the explicit goal of this is to take peoples civilians and remove it from the real questions of education. advocates funding for schools, making sure teachers are all qualified, making sure that there is educational infrastructure that can treat all students equally,

redirecting peoples anxieties away from that, and towards a kind of imaginary enemy. i kind of imagine a group of enemies that are trying to put you down, and denigrate you. the people who benefit from this, as was always the case, are, for example, the people who seek to make money on privatized schools. the very wealthy and the corporations and the owners of capitol who have a vested interest and siphoning while off from public coffers. i also think it is, again, important to maintain that perspective as well. that this isn't just sort of an expression of prejudice. it's also a deliberate political framing to divide people for very cynical reasons. >> right. it's a snake eating its own tale on that front. professors, i'm sorry we don't have the entire hour to dedicate to this. it's a privilege to have both

of you on the program. thank you for your time. we have a lot more to come this evening, including the kremlin calling this explosion an assassination attempt. plus, donald trump threatens to skip at least the first few debates in the 2024 primary season. is that a good thing or bad thing? and for who? that's coming up next. when you really need to sleep. you reach for the really good stuff. zzzquil ultra helps you sleep better and longer when you need it most. its non-habit forming and powered by the makers of nyquil. no, no, no, no, no, no, no. there's a problem with my paycheck. it's short. someone messed it up? i'm in the middle of nowhere. ♪ unnecessary action hero ♪ was that necessary? nope. neither are paycheck problems. with paycom, employees do their own payroll. no problems, no surprises.

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committee has announced that there will be at least two presidential primary debates for the 2024 cycle. the first will be held in milwaukee dishonest, and will be hosted by fox news. the second debate is set to take place at the reagan presidential library in california. the rnc hasn't yet decided which news organization it will be co-hosting that debate, it could be anyone. it could be newsmax. who can now? whatever network the republican party chooses, those debates may very well end up being kind of a let down for gop voters. here's the lead from nbc news this week. former president donald trump may skip the first republican debates this summer. that's according to people, quote, aware of his thinking. so the current front runner for the republican nomination skipping out on the debate process seems like a bad thing, right? on the other hand, it means we might all be spared from this.

>> from everything i see, has no respect for this person. >> well, that's because he'd rather have a puppet as president. >> no puppet. >> it's pretty clear -- >> near the puppet. >> one second. i -- wore energy tonight, i like that. >> he referred to my hands, the small, something else must be small. i guarantee you, there's no problem. i guarantee it. >> you've called women you don't like fac pigs, dogs, slabs, and disgusting animals. we try to recount -- >> only rosie o'donnell. >> she doesn't have the looks, she doesn't have the stamina. >> she's got a beautiful face, and i think she's a beautiful woman. >> that was locker room talk. i'm not proud of it. >> are you willing, tonight, to condemn white supremacists and militia groups? >> what you want to call them, give me a name?

would you like me to condemn? proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> so, what does it mean for the republican party that the current front runner doesn't want to face any other candidates in the race? it's not bad for democracy, was it good for democracy? or at least, good factual people in a democracy? alaska former white house press secretary jen psaki and politico's jonathan martin those very questions and many many more, coming up next. stay with us. stay with us realtor.com (in a whisper) if we use kevin's college fund, we can afford this house. the house whisperer! this house says use realtor.com to find options within your budget. good luck young man. realtor.com to each their home.

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politico. quote, the desantis people iraqis. even trump critics say he's running circles around desantis. despite the legal turmoil surrounding him, donald trump has been methodically undercutting florida governor ron desantis. it's been snatching up congressional endorsements, he's been blasting attack ads, and he's basically dominating news cycles. somewhat even unintentionally. -- unusual level of organization, and is appeared to chip away his likely rival before that rival even jumps in the race. to be clear, nothing about trump the candidate has gotten more professional organized. anyone can take a quick scroll of his truth social page to see this is the same impetuous xenophobe who has been on center stage since 2015, and maybe, if anything, he's gotten worse.

but in a lot of ways, it makes it all the more astonishing that trump's republican rivals are now falling way behind him and the race to build a functioning national campaign operation. what does that say about the republican party, and the outlook for the primary season to come? joining us now to help us answer these questions are jen psaki -- host of msnbc's inside with jen psaki, which airs sunday at noon eastern, and jonathan martin, senior political columnist at politico. it's good to have you experts with me on all this. is there harm, jen, and believing that trump's organized it -- or seen trump's organization to be more focused and strategic than it was in years past? is there harm and acknowledging that fact to be reality? does it to lead us into thinking the candidate himself may somehow be more potent and focused than he was in years past? >> well, the virus low. but, i do you think that, when

it comes to who has a message, or a strategy of some version for running, right now, trump has a stronger message in a stronger strategy. he's also been impeached twice, and has been indicted. but people seem, and the republican primary electorate, the like him more than they like ron desantis. >> which is telling us a lot about the republican electorate. let's just hold that thought for a moment, jonathan. because -- are you surprised at the degree to which, knowing how weak trump's, knowing that this could be a moment when the field is open, there is not more strategic organization from other campaigns? that trump is easily outclassing everyone else on a pure strategic campaign operation level? >> i'm not terribly surprised for our viewers. number one, he did bring out a few pros who have worked a lot

of campaigns over the years. they know what they're doing. secondly, it's donald trump. he has a credible command of attention. and he just gets publicity because he's donald trump. you add to that fact that he got indicted, that gave him at the very least a sugar high within the republican primary. and then, the last fact, which is his most formidable competitor, at least right now, has been largely focused on his legislative session and a remote state capital. you had all those things together, i can say i'm terribly surprised. to me, the big question is, where does this race wind up in the fall after we've had a debater too? and is this still that kind of gap that you're refereeing to between trump and everybody else? >> well, yes. and when we say after the summer, we're not just talking about after some debates. we're saying after potential multiple criminal indictments. it's the big asterisk when

you're talking about all these kind of things that trump has in his favor. robust campaign organization, donors, blah blah. he could also be the first president to have multiple criminal indictments, multiple impeachments, and just the legacy of donald trump. >> that's true. but what's also true, as a baseline fact evoke political campaigns, is that if you're not winning, you cannot win unless you try to take out the guy or gal who is winning. nobody seems to want to take out donald trump right now. so yes, governor desantis has been busy with the session, busy with his forum trip. all those things have kept them busy. he's also ran against everything and everyone except trump. many, mickey, women's rights, all of these issues -- >> people of color. the lgbtq community. >> everyone except -- >> donald trump. >> and it's hard to take matter beaten if he doesn't do that. >> if he's not trying to. to that end, jonathan, from political eu, some very choice reporting about how lackluster

ron desantis has been on these foreign trips. i'll read an excerpt. when you cape is this figure said brown desantis looked bored and stayed in his feet as he met with titans of the british industry. a second business figure in the rooms that it was a low wattage performance, and nobody in the room was left thinking, this man's going places. there wasn't any stardust. that is not the kind of reporting you want out there if you are rhonda sentence. >> no. and especially when you doing one of these foreign tours, which are meant to present you on the world stage, ally x, precisely the opposite of how he came off in that piece. which is somebody who can go toe to toe with other leaders around the world as competitors, and as compatriots. and so, look. i think if you ask anybody around -- they would acknowledge the last few months of not gone to their liking, doesn't mean that there's not an opportunity still yet. but obviously, this is been quite the jump.

think about his moment after the midterms. those few weeks where he was sort of the bell of the ball in an otherwise pretty tough year for politics. and you fast forward to today, well, that's been a pretty rocky six month period. and they're gonna have to -- step it into a different gear here once the governor does announce, which will probably in the next few weeks. when i come back to those debates, maybe trump won't do one or the second of them, but i think we're gonna have a lot more sense as to where this race is going because what jen just said. either desantis can confront trump on that stage and be an equal, or best him on that stage, and show the primary voters i can take this guy out, or he can't. and we'll know a lot after that. >> yeah. and then there is the more existential question about the import of the debates in terms of the actual election, right? we are talking about watching the old clinton trump footage,

which for some people, maybe it was ptsd material. >> yes. >> do they matter? because i think a lot of people watches debates, and the, like he's just mopping -- there mopping the floor with him, then he goes on to be president. >> they think it's creepy, what he's doing. >> but in fact, no. >> they matter if you are coming from behind and you have a moment that goes viral on social media, and you can raise a bunch of money from it. or because of a moment that goes viral on social media and people take a second look at you. but what trump has said about why he doesn't want to do the debate -- ignore all the stuff about fox, and the hosts, and all that. to me, what stood out to me was him saying he has an insurmountable lead. now, that may be, at this moment, to jonathan's point, that may not be the case in a few months. and also that you do debates when you're behind, and you don't do them when your head. that's not exactly true, but i think it's reflective of the point. that unless you're behind, that's when you want to take

somebody on improve yourself and get a second look from voters. why have a viral moment and raise money. >> shorthand, the between the lines i'm reading, like, it matters more for ron desantis to show up to that debate. >> yes. >> even if he's debating with a microphone. he's gotta show up. >> exactly. for exactly the reason that jonathan set. now, ron desantis has chosen to date to not attack donald trump. when you're on a debate stage, if you don't attack the guy in front of you, that stands out. that doesn't look strong. also, that's a moment when people are looking and seeing, can you take him on? is he a better alternative? as he has fierce is the guy we like? and if you don't do that, people take notice. >> does desantis know he needs to attack trump, jonathan? >> oh, yeah. look, i think that once you get in the fray with a political actor like donald trump, who does not sort of adhere to the traditional boundaries of political decorum, i think he

recognizes he's gonna have to sort of scrap, and he's not gonna be able to keep any kind of polite distance from trump. now, the question is, how do you do that? you don't want to get tracked in the mud with him, with some of the 2016 candidates famously did when they were running against trump in that primary. we want to keep some level slightly, at least, above the sort of ground. but you want to make darn sure that you're confronting him. and that's no easy task. how do you not stick to his level, but still to come out the victor and i had to had challenge against trump in a debate? it's not necessarily that easy. but i think that those viral moments are gonna be wet lasts. it's not the hour and a half to beat itself. that's whatever the moment is that stands out. you think about that famous episode, guys, where rubio and christine in new hampshire in 2016 went at it. that was devastating to rubio. because it got played over, and over, and over again, online and on tv, and the days after

that. those are the kind of moments that desantis will need. or, by the way, somebody else. a third candidate who's not had a moment yet, we could use one of these debates to really stand out. and just real fast, ida calm last week about trump in his question about debates. he is wrestling with this, and his survey, the members of the florida house delegation -- said one by one, around the table, should i debate? and i think the majority at the table, guys, said you probably should, because they're all gonna gang up on you. might as well be there to defend yourself. onstage, that night. i think trump, ultimately, will show up. >> that's the most trump thing ever. survey a bunch of people, and then do the opposite of what they suggest, until you reverse yourself again. jen and jonathan, thank you both for your time tonight. lovely to see you, john. when we come back, russia accuses ukraine of trying to assassinate vladimir putin with an exploding drone at the

kremlin. ukraine says that this ridiculous. we'll get the latest on what ukraine is actually doing, coming up next. ng up next ethnicity inheritance. nigerian east central from you. benin. my dad's side. 30% japanese. thank you, mom. there's just still so much to discover. now on sale for mother's day. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union.

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putin before the upcoming victory day parade, which is happening in red square. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy said ukraine was not involved in this incident, adding, quote, we don't attack putin or moscow. we fight on our own territory. russia, meanwhile, is accusing his adversary of doing the very thing russia is now doing, which is ramping up its own drone attacks across ukraine today. 21 people were killed after shelling hit civilian targets in here son including a railway station and a supermarket. an applebaum staffer from the land it came back from the ukraine where she got a closer look at how the country is faring. sometimes she writes the worst described as a war between autocracy and democracy or detained or ship and freedom. and through the differences between the two opponents are not nearly ideological but also sociological. ukraine's struggle against russia pit ahead hierarchy against a hierarchy. an open, networked, flexible society, when that is both

stronger at the grassroots level and more deeply integrated with washington, brussels, and silicon valley, that anyone realized, is fighting a very large, very corrupt, top down state. on one side farmers defend their land and 20 something engineers build eyes in the sky using tools that would be familiar to 20 something engineers anywhere else. on the other side, commanders send waves of poorly armed conscripts to be slaughtered. joining us now, pulitzer prize one winner and writer at the atlantic. it's good to see you here in america, onset. let me first get your reaction to the alleged drone attack by the ukrainians in moscow. >> the russians have been lied about so much for so long they have no credibility. whatever they think it is or sailors nobody's gonna believe it is true that the ukrainians have become interested recently in provocations in trying to underline and emphasize some of

the political divisions in moscow but this is a very strange event. why would you send a drone to kill putin in the kremlin when he doesn't live there? in the middle of the night? so it seems more like it was something, it reflects something going on in russia. >> you pointed this out on twitter, it is an insane moment, that the onset of this war, the expectation was ukraine would be destroyed in a matter of days. and now we are talking about ukraine allegedly launching drone offensives. >> russians have air defenses all around the kremlin now. it wasn't supposed to be like this. the war was supposed to be over three days, six weeks at the outset. instead we have russians fighting with each other, worrying about drones, faking or not faking. it's now focused on themselves. it's now a battle inside moscow over the war. >> i was riveted by your reporting from what's happening inside ukraine, and we extroverted that passage because it's such a testimony

to how nimble and unusual a cranium fighting forces are. i wonder if you could tell me a bit more about your, well what your expectations going in and what you saw in what how that squared with expectations. >> everyone expected this war, as a defense minister told us, a war between a small soviet army in a big soviet army. what we didn't realize was that over the last eight ears, since 2014, ukrainians have completely remade their army and it's to do with waves of volunteers, people from the tech industry, people who worked in silicon valley and came home, young people entering the army. and they have completely transformed it in all kinds of odd ways. it doesn't work the way our army works. we went, for example, to a drone workshop. the drone workshop is a room kind of the size of this one with tables, and on the tables there is bits of glue and wire. 3d printer in the corner, and what would look like styrofoam paper airplanes, and they attach munitions to them and

send them over the border. >> and one point they're saying these drones are used for photographing wedding ceremonies, retrofitting them. the >> kind of thing you ordered to do your wedding ceremony, but they've made them into the weapons. they use the most modern sophisticated military software that's ever been used is being used right now in ukraine. at the same time, they still have weapons to look like they're left over from the soviet invasion of afghanistan in the 80s. it's always a big mix. one of the reasons we find it so hard to predict what would happen is that it's not an army that looks either like what we thought it would look like, nor really like anything else. it's a really partisan volunteer army, pulling in whatever it can form wherever it can, and so far it's working. >> so resourceful. but not entirely, which is to say entirely dependent in some way on american support. adele much fear did you sense

that the ukrainians were worried about america giving up and support for the war? we will tell you about tucker carlson, we know that zelenskyy called rupert murdoch or loughlin murdaugh to generate enthusiasm among their fiercest critics. these are recognizable sense that america is cooling in its ardor to fight this? >> i think they're worried right now. i think the biden ministration isn't, actually there was another aid package announced today. but yes, they think long term, they think down the line, of course the worried about the u.s. elections, of course are worried about what happens if biden loses, and they're worried about what could happen down the line. they spend a lot of time to republicans, to critics. zelenskyy tries to find a lot of different places to speak where he speaks and music festival sometimes. he speaks at universities, because he's trying to reach more than just, he understands it and it's a democracy and he

wants to reach the public and not just leadership. but they do know that. but i think they accurately also understand that this is a war not just for their territory, that it's a war for a way of life, it's a war for the respect of the borders, a war for all of our rules about human rights, about laws of war. and he wants to explain that people. when he does do it he's very convincing. >> and i think you can feel, even from here, the passion, the sense of principle that ukrainians are fighting this war with. that is such a sharp contrast to the russians who have been conscripted who clearly don't want to fight this war and have to be dragged into, it forced into, it a war for nothing in presumably the eyes of russians. >> it's a clash of two systems. it's not just an ideological clash. these are societies that are organized in a different way. the ukrainians would look like us in more ways than you would think.

>> that's all the more reason to keep reporting on what is happening over there. it's an important battle that is being waged, and in an unusual fashion. anne applebaum, one of my favorite writers on all things international. great to have you on set. welcome back. and thank you for being here tonight. we'll be right back. be right back. ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ >> woman: why did we choose safelite? we're always working theon a project.ent. while loading up our suv, one extra push and... crack! so, we scheduled at safelite.com. we were able to track our technician and knew exactly when he'd arrive. we can keep working! ♪ synth music ♪ >> woman: safelite came to us. >> tech: hi, i'm kendrick. >> woman: replaced our windshield, and installed new wipers to protect our new glass. that's service on our time. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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