Skip to main content

tv   Morning Joe  MSNBC  May 4, 2023 3:00am-7:00am PDT

3:00 am
in, but, yes, he is absolutely seen as more of a palatable alternative, seemingly more moderate, very conservative, though. >> it's a great point. there's a limit to how long he can wait. let's recall, the first republican primary debates start this summer, though we don't know what those are going to look like because donald trump is suggesting he won't participate. we shall see. "the hill's" julia manchester, great reporting this morning. thank you for joining us. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. we're not saving the planet with windmills here. if anything, you are hurting the planet. you're certainly killing the birds. ever looked under a windmill? you want to see a cemetery for birds? walk under a windmill someday. >> donald trump continues -- >> where do we start? >> -- his strange crusade against windmills.
3:01 am
>> literally tilting at windmills. >> it comes as his legal team decides its best defense in his civil rape trial. no defense at all? another deadly mass shooting in america. the latest, a medical center in atlanta, prompting an impassioned plea from georgia senator raphael warnock. also, new reporting on the deep financial ties between supreme court justice clarence thomas and a texas billionaire. >> keep getting deeper. >> it keeps getting worse. on capitol hill, there is no off-ramp when it comes to a deal on the debt ceiling. we'll have the latest on the contentious negotiations. meanwhile, the markets mostly flat this morning in response to the latest interest rate hike from the federal reserve. we'll have a full breakdown of what could be the final move from the central bank in the fight to bring down inflation. good morning, everyone, and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, may 4th. we got two out of three birthdays under our belt here.
3:02 am
>> exactly. >> willie and me. along with joe, willie and me, we have pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. white house editor for politico, sam stein. congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany. and the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire is with us. >> sam stein, red sox, team of destiny. >> first of all, happy birthday. >> it's over, but thank you. >> belatedly. yes, red sox, unbelievable. did not expect this in my wildest dreams. >> i know, they're over .500. >> crazy. >> lemire, we'll take it. >> i'll take it. >> sox have now won five in a row, if you can believe it. five in a row against pretty good teams. three straight against the bluejays. nice win last night. they're four games over .500, joe, which, frankly, you and i have been saying all season
3:03 am
long, 81-81, one step forward, one step back, pure immediate i don't care -- mediocrity. >> i'm living embodiment of the belief that mediocrity can be fun, and this red sox team is fun. .500 but fun. >> i can't see that, the team at the bottom? >> we're a little above .500. >> easy. >> willie geist. >> easy. >> the propagandist for the yankees network said they had a gift for you. a walk-off gift last night. >> you talking about the great jack curry of the network who was with us yesterday? we did, we got a walk-off win. we now, not to brag, are two games over .500. >> wow. >> chugging in the right direction here. >> oh, boy. >> how sad is this? yankee and red sox fans are celebrating they just eked over the .500 mark to sit fourth and fifth place in the a.l. east? come on now. >> you know what's even sadder for people that don't live in the eastern time zone?
3:04 am
can we show those standings again? we spend almost all our time talking about two teams in the cellar in the a.l. east, yeah. central time zone? >> look at the juggernaut of a division. >> what about the orioles? fantastic. >> orioles. >> here in d.c., mediocrity would be great. if we could get up to mediocrity. >> .500, you take, right. >> good point. >> mediocrity in a heart beat. >> the debt ceiling. >> i love it. >> nothing yet. >> we'll get to the top story now. the development broke during our show yesterday morning. there is still no independent verification of russia's claims that ukraine launched an attack on the kremlin. around 24 hours ago, russian media began broadcasting claims from its government that two drones struck the kremlin earlier in the morning with the goal of taking out president vladimir putin. the kremlin released a video that purportedly shows one of those drones striking the top of
3:05 am
the building. it added that putin was not at the kremlin at the time, nor was anyone injured. the state department said it has been unable to verify the video's authenticity. neither nbc news or any other source has verified what russia says happened. secretary of state anthony blinken said to take anything out of russia with a, quote, very large shaker of salt. ukrainian officials denied the attack. an adviser to president volodymyr zelenskyy said russia's claims are in preparation for a terrorist provocation. zelenskyy himself denied the attack later in the day. >> david ignatius, "new york times" writes on the front page, kyiv denied any involvement in an incident that could raise the already high stakes in europe's biggest conflict since world war ii. just a couple days ago, we were talking about how putin had nowhere to go. is this a false flag that actually gives him a second wind? >> the honest answer is we don't know. but anybody who looks at the
3:06 am
footage and thinks that that was a serious attempt to assassinate vladimir putin is an idiot. it was some sort of provocation by one side or another, a symbolic attack. we are heading toward crunch time in ukraine. this war is coming to a head. what happens in the next few months, i think will be divisive in how the war turns out. one thing secretary blinken said yesterday at "the washington post" to celebrate world press freedom day, he thought the ukrainians would take significant territory, that they will advance along this front line. if they can punch through that long front and gain territory from the russians, we'll then be in a different position, where the ukrainians finally feel that they've got some strategic leverage. then i think, and i'm quoting secretary blinken, negotiations might be possible. so the next few months really are going to be critical in this war we've followed so carefully. it's so painful to watch.
3:07 am
>> general milley and most of the people in the pentagon agree with the assessment that at least this year, the ukrainians aren't going to get every russian troop out of their country. >> right. >> the russians aren't going to achieve any of their political gains that they sought through warfare. so this is going to have to end up at the negotiating table, whether both sides like it or not. >> yeah, at the moment, neither side is ready to do that. but, you know, after -- the end of this year, let's take another look and see where they are. because if the ukrainians do make substantial progress, then yes, it becomes more palatable to them to talk about a negotiated settlement. it freezes things in place. russians aren't completely gone from the ukrainian territory, but at least maybe armistice, a cease-fire, something keeps this, you know -- tamps this tragedy down until a more
3:08 am
permanent solution can be negotiated at some point in the future. one of my questions is whether, if we get to that point, is there a role for china in these negotiations? >> that was something that secretary blinken addressed very directly yesterday. i was interviewing him on stage and asked him about the chinese 12-point peace plan. he says, many of the points in that plan are actually ones that we would be interested in. the chinese role in trying to settle this, we think, would be valuable. why? it's because the chinese really at this point are the only people who could discipline putin and force putin to stop. i think that's -- that makes them a relevant player. president zelenskyy in ukraine certainly wants the chinese involved. he had a phone call last week with xi jinping that he described as very positive. we'll have to see. >> i mean, anybody that thinks we're going to get vladimir putin over to the white house or that we'll have some sort of camp david moment are dreaming, or else on another network screaming about how horrible joe
3:09 am
biden is. it's just absolute lunacy. everybody is welcome. if you have a peace plan, you're welcome. come on in. that's what -- i mean, we need china to be part of this process because putin is only going to listen to china. so, tell me, jonathan lemire, what are you hearing from the white house right now about the attack? >> well, we are going to hear from john kirby, admiral kirby from the national security council, later on in the show. yesterday, a couple things happened in my reporting. the white house did not receive any advanced notice of this attack. they are, as david just said, investigating. their intelligence community is going to make its own assessment as to what they think happened. the false flag operation, that's possible. but others have cautioned me, that say they simply don't know yet. they do wonder if, you know, does moscow need an excuse to escalate their conflict any further, if they're even able to, and does it show a sign of weakness, an attack on the kremlin itself, even one that
3:10 am
seemed so modest and there was no chance of success? another possibility would be some sort of pro-ukraine force. perhaps not sanctioned from kyiv and president zelenskyy made clear yesterday they had nothing to do with it. they didn't order this. there have been, let's just say, multiple explosions that happened in russia. things tend to be blowing up every so often. if not directed from kyiv, there are pro-ukrainian forces that have operated within ukraine, sometimes to the u.s. government's chagrin. that's a possibility, as well, one of them were behind it, as much as there is chance moscow itself ordered up the investigation. >> pro-ukrainian group or anti-putin group. there are some of those, willie, still in russia. as richard engel told you yesterday, first of all, there is no way this drone could have come from ukraine. secondly, if it was an assassination attempt of vladimir putin, it was a pathetic assassination attempt that would not have work
3:11 am
worked unless vlad was on top of the kremlin was the little drone hit. >> richard poked holes into the theory it was an assassination attempt, including the drone appeared to be one you could get at best buy, not one that ukraine would send over. >> right. >> if this were some kind of an attack that russia was inventing to go after ukraine, well, they maybe used that justification already. they sent some drones, shot missiles toward odesa. they shot missiles to kyiv last night. buildings were rocking. this may already be in motion as we try to get to the bottom of what really happened there. meanwhile, at home, investigators in atlanta still are searching for a motive in yesterday's deadly mass shooting. at least five women inside a medical center were shot, one of them fatality, when a gunman opened fire inside a waiting room. after an 8-hour manhunt, deion patterson was arrested in a neighboring county, just north of where the shooting took
3:12 am
place. live from atlanta, nbc news correspondent morgan chesky. good morning. what more do we know about what happened there yesterday? >> reporter: yeah, willie, good morning. this is the jail that 24-year-old deion patterson was booked into by authorities following this shooting and ensuing manhunt that took the better part of all day and ended at a complex in neighboring cobb county. willie, you can imagine the chaos that started when authorities say patterson walked into atlanta's northside hospital, went up to the 11th floor waiting area, pulled out a handgun and opened fire, wounding the four women, killing another before fleeing that scene. authorities were very clear last night in providing an update, that the public was critical in providing locations following his escape from the hospital. about 30 minutes after the shooting, willie, they were able to use license plate recognition cameras to identify the vehicle that he stole from a neighboring
3:13 am
parking garage and find it on a road about 30 miles away. hours followed, this manhunt increased, and late yesterday, officers were able to move in on a building they had seen him walk inside using another surveillance camera. that is when patterson was taken into custody without incident and brought here to fulton county jail. as for any potential motive at this point in time, willie, authorities have not shared any. we do know that as the shooting took place, we believe that patterson was accompanied by his mother, although she was not injured in any way during the shooting, nor do we believe she's shared anything with authorities as to this attack. as for right now, though, we're waiting to hear the official charges against that 24-year-old, whose only weapon as of right now was a handgun inside that hospital. willie? >> sounds like an extraordinary scene at an apartment complex in cobb county, just north of atlanta, where an undercover
3:14 am
officer spotted this man and finally was able to take him into custody without incident, as police officers descended on the complex. morgan, we don't know exactly what motive is here, but we did hear from his mother, who suggested he was seeking new care. maybe he had been under the care of the department of veterans affairs. do we know anything else about that? >> reporter: we know that he was discharged from the coast guard in january. as you said, he was believed to be seeking some sort of mental help. outside of that, very few details are being shared by authorities right now, who are still calling this an incredibly active investigation. willie? >> all right. nbc's morgan chesky live from atlanta, thanks so much. mika, a terribly sad scene. 38-year-old woman who worked for the cdc killed while sitting in the office doing her work. four others injured, sent to the hospital in critical condition. >> and, unfortunately, here we
3:15 am
go again. and democratic senator raphael warnock of georgia spoke on the senate floor yesterday following the shooting in his home state. >> i think that the unspoken assumption is that this can't happen to me. this won't happen to me. it won't happen to people that i love. but with a mass shooting every day, the truth is, the chances are great. i shutter to say it, but the truth is, in a real sense, it's only a matter of time. that this tragedy comes knocking on your door. as a pastor, i'm praying for those who are affected by this tragedy, but i hasten to say that thoughts and prayers are
3:16 am
not enough. and, in fact, in fact, it is a contradiction to say that you are thinking and praying and then do nothing. it is to make a mockery of prayer. >> senator warnock will be our guest later this morning. joe, to his point, i mean, this is the game republicans are playing with guns and not addressing the issue. perhaps at a time like this, they'd say, you shouldn't talk politics at a time there was a shooting. you hear it again and again and again. similar, abortion, health care for women, where you have women sitting in hospitals, who are sitting at home waiting for fetuses, babies that they are trying to have that might end up killing them because they have abnormalities and they won't make it. this is happening to real people across america, and it will happen to a republican, come to a home near you at some point, whether it's a shooting or a
3:17 am
massive health care crisis, where a woman cannot save her own life. >> well, it has. >> -- what they have done. >> most of the shootings are in red states. i mean, most of the shootings are where there are the most guns. there's the most guns in red states. you look at the numbers. sam, again, for people that have just started following news in the past few years and they think it's normal for there to be a shooting in texas yesterday, a mass shooting in texas, a mass shooting in georgia yesterday, mass shooting in texas a couple days ago, you know, cheerleaders getting shot to death when they go into the wrong cars, college students getting shot in the back when they go into the wrong driveways, young men being shot at doors where they're going to pick up their twin brothers. it hasn't always been this way. in fact, since sandy hook, the number of people who have died
3:18 am
from guns has doubled. >> right. >> this is a choice. >> yeah. >> this is a choice that republicans, along with gun manufacturers, along with gun lobbyists, have made. and every time there is a slaughter, they cynically say, they're coming to get your guns. buy more guns. so guns just completely flooded our culture, and people are getting shot. by the way, i said it a couple days ago, if we just reported on road rage incidents, where somebody got cut off on an interstate on 95 and somebody else started shooting, we'd be talking for hours a day about that. it's a gun culture, and it's a problem unique to the united states in these numbers. >> it's incredibly true. what's striking is the reasons for the shooting. i mean, we've always had guns. obviously, we have more guns, but now, it's just minor provocations that are leading to mass shootings. >> yes.
3:19 am
>> the wrong doorbell. the wrong driveway. i mean, we are resolving -- >> picking a baby up at night. >> right. >> noise complaint. >> to ask a neighbor to chill out a little bit with the firing of the -- >> don't shoot your ar-15 in your front yard. >> to result in the shootings. clearly, it's both an issue of the number of guns and our collective decision that we can resolve our disputes with guns. i would just say, you know, the senator, obviously, is dealing with a huge tragedy today, but i quibble with one thing he said. he said the conventional wisdom is this can't happen to me. i actually think that's no longer the case. i know plenty of associates and friends and family members who no longer can go to a mass attended event, a concert, even a supermarket, without having panic attack about what would happen if a shooter walked through the door. >> that's right. >> looking to find where the exit would be if need be that you have to run. i don't think we are at the
3:20 am
point where we're saying, "this can't happen to me." collectively, we're saying, "how do we flee if this does happen?" >> i completely agree. who walks into a mass event without thinking about that? >> every time. >> an art show or a sporting event where they're not screened or a grocery store or anything. because you're seeing it, jackie. >> the stress that brings. >> right. jackie, parents who now are afraid to send their kids to school, for good reason, because they're hearing about active duty -- i mean, active shooter drills that their 6-year-old children are having to take in first grade. it's insanity. >> there is a reason why upwards of 80% of americans are in favor of universal background checks, despite the republican blockade against passing anything further than the package that was
3:21 am
recently passed, which was enhance background checks for people under the age of 21. these issues, i hate to be the person to jump immediately to the political ramifications of these policies or lack thereof, but republicans are already warning that these two issues abortion and gun control, will be the death now for republicans going into 2024 if they can't become a bit more centrist and moderate. i'm currently working on a profile of nancy mace, who has been one of the lone republican voices on this issue, of finding common ground with democrats in some way. she trashed desantis' six-week ban on abortion signed in the dead of night, no exemptions for rape and incest. she said we have to stop just calling for thoughts and prayers and find a way to stop the spat of shootings and this can't be
3:22 am
the norm. >> the thing is, they'll do something at some point, but at this point, we're way behind. in terms of the -- again, mass shootings can happen at this point every day in america. it is a weekly event, every three days, every day. you hear of two, three, four people being shot or killed. they're going to, you know, ultimately maybe bend to the politics of this and do something. no, we need everything at this point. aren't we at the point where we need everything for our children to survive school? >> what we're going to see, and it'll happen slowly, but it is inevitable. you can't continue to have these mass shootings every day without congress finally moving, a representative government finally moving. i quoted john kerry before when he went before the senate arms service committee. he asked, who is going to be the last soldier to die for vietnam?
3:23 am
i forget the exact words. but we know, these mass shootings are going to continue in schools, tragically, david, until, some point, republicans or else voters are going to continue this backlash on abortion and guns. >> it'll start with voters. republicans have too much at stake in this sick gun culture that has developed. it is going to take a popular rebellion. people are just going to have to say, i can't stand it anymore. i can't live like this. i can't get up worrying my child will go to school and face this kind of violence. you know, if i go to -- if my wife goes for a medical appointment -- to take the facts of the most recent case. some person who has a mental issue will walk in with a gun and start shooting. i can't live like that. >> no. >> no. >> people say, i can't do it,
3:24 am
then maybe you have the political movement and power that will frighten republican. it'll take fear to get them off of this. >> it needs two things. it needs the political action. this has to be a voting issue. abortion was a voting issue in the midterms, i think we saw. i think guns has to become a voting issue on the side of sanity, as well. and then i think we need people -- we need, like, a million person march, you know, in washington, about gun violence. we really do. we need big, public demonstrations of what people believe and what people fear and what people know we need now in terms of gun legislation. >> willie? >> to inject a little optimism into the conversation, i think the good news is, there is an entire generation of young people. >> that's it. >> maybe it's not us, and shame on us for not dealing with this. joe, you and i talked about this. in 50 years, people will look
3:25 am
back and say, "were you guys insane? you let this become your culture, where people just died going to grocery stores and going to school and everything else?" there is an entire generation, conservative, progressive, democrat, republican, who has lived through this. who has experienced it, some of them going through shootings, multiple shootings, and they're not going to stand for it. they're going to do something about it. i hate to say we may have to wait a while, but i do believe help is on the way from a generation who lived through this crazy violence that somehow we accept in our culture. >> i agree. the two issues that jackie brought up, you have guns and abortion. interestingly enough, those are two issues that republicans used to use against democrats to show they were out of touch with mainstream america. now, it is republicans. >> that is correct. >> out of touch with mainstream america. you look at any poll. >> a fox news poll last thursday. fox news poll, 80% plus for background checks and everything else.
3:26 am
61% for an assault weapons ban. >> times have changed. >> 77% if you're driving, 77% of the fox news poll want a 30-day waiting period. 80% want red flag laws. i was struck by how screwed up the gun culture is, that you had the tennessee governor trying to move after the slaughter, after the slaughter of little children in a christian school there apologizing for trying to pass something that was like a red flag law. he said, i won't use red flag law because that's a provocation, that's a term people invented to provoke. i said, really? 80%. keep those numbers up. 80% of americans support red flag laws. people in these little bubbles that listen to gun lobbyists and listen to the most extreme legislators who listen to gun
3:27 am
lobbyists, gun manufacturers and hedge fund managers who make money off of guns that kill people, they try to make red flag laws a bad phrase? no, 80% of americans want red flag laws. 80% of americans want health care checks, mental health care checks as requirements for getting guns. 81%, 21, minimum age requirement for purchasing guns. 81%, this is radical, want enforcing existing gun laws. republicans defund the agencies that can do that. 87% support background checks. yes, gene, a majority of americans support the banning of military style weapons. >> 61% in the fox poll. >> what are those? weapons designed for war, to be more efficient killers of the vietnamese than the guns that our troops were taking over to southeast asia.
3:28 am
>> for everyone, this extraordinary journalism that our "washington post" side did earlier this year, what the difference is between a round from an ar-15, military weapon, does opposed to a round from a handgun. it's the difference between a wound that might be survivable with a handgun and that is not survivable because of the high velocity of these rounds from these assault rifles. it's a different thing. these are killing machines. that's the only reason. >> gene, they're killing. let's be really clear, as somebody that has guns and knows guns, the killing machines that kill multiple human beings at a time. >> yeah. >> if you want to kill -- not to be too graphic, if you want to kill somebody that's coming to your house, you talk to any sheriff, talk to any law enforcement officer, they'll say, get a shotgun. when they walk through the door, aim at the frame of the door. can't miss. it is the most efficient
3:29 am
defender of a household there is. not an ar-15. ar-15s aren't for defending homes. they're going out for mass slaughters. supposed to be in the jungles of vietnam. >> yeah. >> supposed to be in other countries where our troops go to war. now, they're in supermarkets. now, they're in first grade schools. now, they're in america, and this is a choice, americans, that you're making if you don't say no to this. >> we will continue this conversation. >> it's crazy. coming up on "morning joe," pro publica is out with new reporting on supreme court justice clarence thomas. bottom line, there's more. it's a lot more. also, another legal defeat for former president trump as a judge tosses out his lawsuit against "the new york times" and orders him to pay all legal bills for "the times" and its reporters. and the latest out of texas, another mass shooting there last friday night. we're following new reporting about the gunman attempting to
3:30 am
flee to mexico after being accused of killing five neighbors. also this morning, the fed raises interest rates for the tenth straight time. steve rattner joins us ahead to explain what it means for the economy. >> is steve going to be at the big board? it's actually more like times square. >> oh, i hear he does have charts. >> very exciting. >> you get your wish, joe. >> kids love this. >> yay. >> oh, boy. also ahead, emmy and golden global winner, actor kiefer sutherland is a guest this morning. we'll look at his new series. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. from prom dresses
3:31 am
to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. the maga republicans in congress are threatening to throw america into default, crashing our economy. their latest radical demand? they want to repeal investments in affordable clean energy and manufacturing that are already creating hundreds of thousands of jobs across america. their reckless demands will kill countless american jobs even jobs in their own hometowns. because for maga extremists, it's never about your jobs or our economy. it's always about pushing their extreme agenda.
3:32 am
♪ with wet amd, sometimes i worry my world is getting smaller because of my sight. but now, i can open up my world with vabysmo. vabysmo is the first fda-approved treatment for people with wet amd that improves vision and delivers a chance for up to 4 months between treatments. which means doing more of what i love. ♪ vabysmo is the only treatment designed to block
3:33 am
2 causes of wet amd. vabysmo is an eye injection. don't take it if you have an infection or active swelling in or around your eye, or are allergic to it or any of its ingredients. treatments like vabysmo can cause eye infection or retinal detachment. vabysmo may cause a temporary increase in eye pressure after receiving the injection. although uncommon, there is a potential risk of heart attack or stroke associated with blood clots. open up your world! a chance for up to 4 months between treatments with vabysmo. ask your doctor. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪
3:34 am
hey, man. nice pace! clearly, you're a safe driver. you could save hundreds for safe driving with liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need! [sfx: limu squawks] whoo! we gotta go again. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪ the all-new chevy colorado is made for more. bring more. ♪ do more. ♪ see more. ♪ and be more. ♪ the all-new chevy colorado. made for more. ♪
3:35 am
it's a beautiful shot as the sun comes up over the white house at 6:34 on a thursday morning. the federal reserve again raised interest rates, this time by a quarter point. it was the tenth interest rate hike in over a year. this time, though, it did signal it could pause further increases. the central bank has been battling high inflation while dealing with a string of high-profile bank failures. from a treasury official, "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner is at the big board. it is the southwest wall, we're told, in our studio, with his charts. steve, good morning. a quarter of a point again yesterday, but perhaps this is a sign that the end of the road may be here in terms of interest rate hikes? >> that's right, willie. it was the tenth increase, as you say, and that is, in fact, when you look here, actually the fastest rate of increase we've had in any fed tightening cycle,
3:36 am
i think in history, certainly in modern history. this red line is, of course, the late '70s/early '80s. see where it got to, but it started off much more slowly. these are the other ones since then. why have they gone up so far so fast? inflation kind of got away from us during the pandemic, as everybody knows, and the fed had to move aggressively to try to tamp it down. then as you said, the fed did signal there might be a pause. they took some language out of a previous statement saying they were going to likely raise rates and suggested it instead of a pause. that's what the market thinks. the market thinks there is an 89% chance that at the june meeting, there won't be a hike. this can shift any time. as you suggested, part of what is driving the fed here is the fact that we've had these three big bank failures. there is an old saying on wall street, when the fed hits the brakes, somebody slams through the windshield. that's what's happening. the fed will step back and see
3:37 am
if all of this has the impact they want it to have before they decide whether to go further or not. >> yeah, you know, steve, the thing is, kids that were awakened a couple minutes ago to get up and see uncle steve's wall of charts, they're sitting there eating their trix, lucky charms, and asking the same question, yes, uncle steve, but where is core inflation right now? [ laughter ] >> those kids. >> ma, bring me some more milk. >> where are my cheerios? >> i know everybody wants to know what's happening with core inflation. here's what's happening with core inflation. which is to say, almost nothing. now, what is core inflation, joe, since you decided you were going to go down that rabbit hole? i was going to alive those words. core inflation is what happens when you take out the volatile categories of inflation, like food and energy and things like that, and you get right down to what we call core services. everything from lawyers to television hosts to hotel clerks
3:38 am
and so forth. what you can see here is that core inflation has really been stuck at this 4.5% number that came out just a few days ago. that is, obviously, way above the fed's 2% target. of course, way above where it was before the pandemic hit. so why is it stuck there? in large part because of wages. that is the single biggest cost component for most businesses. wages, you can see the trajectory following almost the same path. wage increases in terms of total employment costs at 4.8%. you have 4.8% here. 4.5% there. not surprisingly, that's the relationship you expect to see. so this needs to get lower before that can likely to go lower. that's what the fed is going to be watching. if it doesn't get lower, you'll have some more interest rate increases at some point. >> steve, let me ask you about pressure on inflation that continues. ronald reagan famously said a
3:39 am
recession is when you -- your neighbor doesn't have a job. a depression is when you don't have a job. well, you look at the job market. big wheels keep on rolling. i mean, the job market stayed hot. we had some positive numbers yesterday. why isn't the job market cooling off, and i guess another way to ask that is, why do americans feel so bad about where the economy is? if you look at right track, wrong track, the unemployment numbers are as good as they've ever been. unemployment among black americans, the lowest ever. black men, unemployment amonglo unemployment among white men right now. yet, you hear story after story that people of color don't think joe biden has done enough this this economy. >> that's a great -- >> it's like a tale of two economies. talk about it. >> yeah, that's a great question, joe. look, in terms of the overall job market, as you say, it is
3:40 am
quite strong. we have a 3.5% unemployment rate. we've been adding jobs at a still substantial pace, although that has come down. we were adding jobs at 700,000 a month or average at the peak, coming out of the pandemic. now, we're down to just around 300,000 jobs. that is still way above the historic average going back before the pandemic of about 175,000 jobs or so. the great american job machine, so to speak, continues to grind on. the same thing with job openings. we had almost 12 million job openings at the peak. it's now down just under 10 million. that is still about 1.6 jobs for everybody looking for a job. there's no reason, almost, that people who want a job aren't going to be able to find one with it being this far apart. look, as to why americans still feel the economy is so bad, you and i have talked about it. i don't have a great answer. it's been that way actually for a long time, if you even go
3:41 am
back, really, i think, since the great financial crisis. most of the time, you'll find americans feeling down about the economy. i think we are still facing the possibility of a recession. it is very hard, going to be very hard for the fed to get to 2% without getting all of these numbers down, and that kind of can look like a recession at some point. i think it's people feeling okay about today but worried about the future. >> steve, it's david ignatius in washington. steve kornacki is nervous seeing you at that big chart. so i just want to ask you whether you and people you talk to in financial markets are still convinced that 4% is too high for core inflation. the fed has this target of 2%. that's the way we lived in this long period of essentially no inflation. going down those 2 percentage points is going to take some pain. is everybody convinced it's necessary? >> that's a great question,
3:42 am
david. first of all, the 2% number was kind of an arbitrary number that the fed picked some years ago, to try to anchor expectations. part of what can cause inflation is, in fact, people expecting inflation. so the fed really has been trying to anchor inflation at this 2% number. so the question is, is 2%, what's the magic of 2%? the answer is, there isn't any magic. could it be 3%? could it be 4%? sure, but the problem is that the fed has clung to this 2% for so long, and powell continues to cling to it, that for them to back off, people feel, would negatively affect people's expectations. you're also right in say, as most economists believe, that getting that last 2% out of inflation is going to be very painful. getting back to joe's question, i think while people may not understand the ins and outs of 2% and 3% and 4%, they get it that we have a ways to go on the inflation problem, and that that's going to be painful for a
3:43 am
lot of americans, unfortunately. >> steve rattner, thank you very much. we appreciate you coming on with the charts this morning. >> kids loved it. >> they adored it. now, pro republica out with new reporting on supreme court justice clarence thomas. the organization has been leading the investigative reporting into justice thomas having received luxury trips, real estate deals and gifts from billionaire harlan crow over a 20-year period. their newest report is regarding tuition payments for the grand nephew of justice thomas, who he was raising as his son. joining us now, one publica reporters on the story, justin elliott. thank you for joining us. this reporting is staggering. how much money are we talking about as it pertains to this tuition that the republican donor was providing for the supreme court justice? >> yeah, so we don't have the full amount, but we're talking
3:44 am
potentially in excess of $150,000. this was at two private boarding schools, one in virginia and one in georgia that justice thomas sent his grand nephew, who he was raising as his son, to. >> and -- >> can i ask, justin, i mean, here's yet another example of clarence thomas getting financial benefits from a massive gop donor. you read "the wall street journal" editorial page on your reporting. you read the "national review," and they are shocked. shocked and stunned and deeply saddened. said that this is just the left-wing media once again going after a public servant, a good, conservative public servant. i'm sure you read their critiques. can you fill in gaps they've maybe left intentionally open? >> couple things. one, we're reporting on the
3:45 am
entire supreme court, and i'm contractually obliged to say that if anyone has information about other justices, they should get in touch. you know, seriously, we haven't -- we just haven't found anything like this relationship between crow and thomas with any of the other justices at this point. we're talking about a billionaire political donor who is funding, you know, multiple aspects of the life of a justice. this private school tuition, which we -- the story we broke today. lavish vacations on his yacht. private yet use for 20 years. harlan owns the house where thomas' mother is apparently living rent free. we spoke to the chief ethics lawyer for the george w. bush white house, richard painter, who said that, you know, basically never seen anything like this. when he was in the government, if you had a staffer taking this
3:46 am
level of undisclosed gifts, you'd want to get them out of the government. >> justin, obviously, justice thomas has not reported his tuition payments or anything else in his disclosure forms. you mentioned the bush white house lawyers, which rebuts claims this is a partisan effort here. has justice thomas offered any explanation at all as to why he thought this was proper behavior? >> justice thomas did not respond if our questions for the latest story. he released one statement in response to our first story about the travel harlan crow has been providing him with, in which he said, look, i'm close friends with harlan crow. i was advised by my colleagues that i didn't have to disclose this. they have not said, you know, what or who that was. the law is clear, you have to disclose gifts like this.
3:47 am
>> propublica reporter justin elliott, thank you for your reporting and for coming on this morning. joe, once again, it is really hard not to see how this supreme court justice was not exposed to being -- to having his objectivity impacted. let's just say it kindly. by all the gifts over the decades of a republican donor. then add the fact -- and we try to be objective ourselves, but it is hard not to notice his wife texting mark meadows, completely involved in certain things that seem to be part of the big lie. then you wonder, what is going on? >> this has been a horrible two years, two and a half years for justice thomas' legacy. >> yeah. >> for republicans who are trying to dismiss this, i can't even begin to imagine what would happen if it were justice
3:48 am
sotomayor. >> my lord. >> justice kagan. >> please. >> again, let's be really clear about this, everybody at this table would be shocked and outrage and had be critical if this were a liberal justice, a left-wing justice that was taking this. there are no rules, sam, it appears. there is nothing that people on the trump right can do that is going to get condemnation from most republicans. again, i can't even imagine if any federal judge i practiced under had taken 1/100th of these gifts, i can't imagine they wouldn't be up for impeachment. >> you're talking about the need to be objective. i would argue, it would be not objective if we didn't treat this as the clear cut behavior
3:49 am
it is. >> right. >> it doesn't matter if testifies appointed by a republican president or conservative jurist. this is clear cut, problematic ethics. to your point, i thought about this a little bit. if it was associate or one of his clerks who, in the course of discovery, found out a big donor had secretly paid for that clerk's wife's tuition, that clerkwould be tossed out of the court tomorrow. imagine a reporter who quietly took $150 in benefits from a donor. that person would lose all credibility instantaneously and never be able to be in this profession. so, yes, we need to objectively assess the situation by noting clearly just how absurd and outlandish it actually is. >> and it was not disclosed. that's the thing, not disclosed. the disclosure form, justice
3:50 am
thomas expects us to take seriously his reading of the subtlest nuances of our constitution and what every clause means and everything, you know, very, very carefully parsing that. he also wants us to believe he can't understand the very simple instructions on a disclosure form? >> it's ridiculous. and the court is doing nothing. john roberts, who i always said was an institutionalist, not acting like it now. somebody who wants to protect the institution when the supreme court's ratings are at an all-time low, he'd step forward and be more active like this. this is not something you can step back, leave for vacation this summer and hope it goes away. if you are an institutionalist, david, and i want to underline this fact, for the chief justice, the supreme court's credibility with the american people is at an all-time low. >> joe, i think you're right,
3:51 am
that this comes down to the chief justice. we really don't want a situation, jackie, you cover congress, where congress is trying to legislate rules for another branch of government. it may come to that, but isn't this centrally chief justice roberts' responsibility? he is the person who can say, this reporting isn't partisan. this reporting is about the basics of accountability that every other judge in america has to deal with, and we do, too. here are the rules that i as chief justice are going to announce. >> interestingly, judges who appeared in front of the committee earlier this week advised congress they could not pass a bill forcing the supreme court to impose their own rules, but under the constitution, they were allowed to actually create a bill that outlined a code of conduct and then have that enforced by some independent arbiter. that is the bill -- >> moving forward.
3:52 am
>> exactly. that is the bill that susan -- sorry, lisa murkowski and angus king proposed last week. there is not any sort of unanimous consent about this bill in any way, but you did have republicans and democrats agree that this is problematic. i will say, you know, judges are still untouchable politically. even when i'm thinking back to our reporting during the january 6th committee that investigated the attack on the capitol. liz cheney privately did not want to touch clarence thomas. she is the most outspoken republican against a lot of sort of the democratic backsliding and issues we've seen with the republican party, and she had said to her -- privately to staffers and investigators that she didn't want to touch clarence thomas' wife. she didn't want to continue to make that a spotlight. she thought it was irrelevant to the investigation writ large. a lot of her colleagues, democrats at the time, felt like
3:53 am
that was because she didn't want to be the republican responsible for taking down clarence thomas. >> clarence thomas, though, in fact, didn't he rule in a case, he was the lone dissenter, that touched exactly on what his wife was involved in. >> failed to recuse himself once again. >> "washington post"'s jackie alemany, thank youcoming up, te questions the president's cognitive ability amid a stalemate in negotiations on the debt ceiling. we'll show you those comments as the default deadline looms without a compromise in sight. plus, we'll speak with two members of the senate appropriations committee. also ahead, white house national security council official john kirby joins us on the heels of reports from moscow about an alleged attack on the kremlin. up nec, luke russert joins us with his memoir which reflects on the impact of his late father, the great tim russert. "morning joe" will be right back.
3:54 am
asking the right question can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this? - what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - are you a certified financial planner™? - i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond.
3:55 am
3:56 am
here in the battleground state of florida, florida, florida. >> i had my board to play around here. guess what? 269 minus 11 to 269, a deadlock. >> the great tim russert, hard to believe next month it'll be 15 years since we lost our dear colleague and friend, tim russert, after he suffered a heart attack preparing for "meet the press" in our washington bureau. he was 58. his son, luke, was 22 years old at the time and just out of college. without time to fully grieve, luke began his own career at nbc news, starting as a young reporter and eventually a capitol hill correspondent. but in 2016, at the height of the presidential campaign, luke left it all behind as he set off to finally face his loss. he spent months visiting more than 60 countries, trying to find his own path.
3:57 am
now, he's sharing his experiences in the new memoir, "look for me there." our good friend luke russert joins us now. also with us for this conversation, mike barnicle, who has known luke, i think, since the day he was born. >> that's true. >> great to have you here. congratulations on the book. >> thank you. >> tell us about the journey. you were thrust into this world with us after your dad died. during the 2008 presidential campaigns, you were pushed out there and said, "go do it," and you didn't have time to grapple with the hole in your life. tell us about the journey you took to find it. >> i think you're talking about where it started, 22-year-old luke, that young kid who had such a desire to try and preserve his dad's legacy. he thought that's what he had to do. he thought that was his duty. in the process of doing that, was never really able to grieve
3:58 am
himself and understand really what the loss of his father was going to mean for him personally. it was at a very interesting time because i was so outward facing. i was trying to shoulder this load and shoulder this responsibility of, okay, this is something my father would want to happen. he would want me to be out there, to try and preserve his name. also, the values that he found to be so important in journalism, which was asking the tough questions, accountability. the thing he used to say is, if you can't answer tough questions, how are you going to make tough decisions? so i wanted to be around and be part of that. i wanted to keep his legacy alive, keep the flame burning. that was a burden i didn't process until 2016. i needed time away, which was a blessing. in that process, away from washington, away from politics of the day-to-day of capitol hill, even though i really enjoyed parts of it, i was anxious and needed to get out of it to really know who i was independent of my family and my
3:59 am
hometown. >> so, luke, friday, friday the 13th, june 13th. >> yeah. >> 2008. you're in rome with your mother. >> florence, yeah. >> just graduated from boston college. >> yeah. >> your father dies in washington, d.c. so we're 15 years later now. in this journey you've been on, what have you learned about yourself in those 15 years? >> well, i think one of the things about travel is that you become more comfortable in uncertainty. after my father passed away, i was so uncomfortable in uncertainty. i would wake up in the middle of the night, sometimes thinking, "oh gosh, am i going to die of a heart attack later today?" i would constantly think about him and go, "i just wish i had a few more minutes to talk to him." and over time, what i found was,
4:00 am
you know what? he was my biggest booster. he was my best friend. more than anything, he would want me to do what makes me happy, but also comfortable. the last thing tim russert would ever ask me to do, the last thing dad would ever ask me to do, is to white-knuckle through things that would bring me some sort of pain, some sort of anguish, right? and it took me so long to figure that out. because he would say, "go be you." that's -- you know, grandpa was a garbage man. he worked the jobs for 40 years. i worked my butt off. pass it on to the next generation and pursue dreams that make you happy, but don't think you have to do something for me. took me a long time to figure that out. but when the moment happened, and for me it happened in the holy land of all places, it was eye opening. and it brought me such a -- it got me to such a place of peace.
4:01 am
i wish it'd happened earlier, but you know what? i think the good lord works in mysterious ways, and shouldering that burden for a while was actually probably something i had to do. i came out better for it. >> wow. >> and a part of the journey that got you right here, luke. tell me about the title, "look for me there." very intriguing title. where did you get it? >> so, joe, you're a great dad. when i would go to baseball games or a rock concert or i would go somewhere, my father used to always say, "hey, i'm going to be there if we get separated. look for me there." i was 9 years old and we were at orioles park, camden yards. it was a hot, humid day. he was holding my hand, and a crowd of people came through in the concourse. we got separated. i was a little bit nervous as a kid, but i never lost sight of him. he came running back, grabbed my hand and say, "buddy, if we're ever separated, look for me there." he pointed at a hot dog stand
4:02 am
with the orioles bird logo. he pulls me in and goes, but we'll never be separated. and i've always thought about that. there's a coffee shop at the airport he'd pick me up from college. when i get off the flight, the coffee shop is there, and i swear i see the man, the hunched shoulders, the jowl, about to smile, and that's where it is. part of the book was looking for something. >> yeah. >> that's why it just fits. >> you know, i remember after my dad passed away, tom brokaw told me a couple weeks later when he noticed i was quieter around set than i guess he was used to. he took me aside and said, "you know, joe, i'm with my dad and my dad is with me every day. i talk to him every day, and he's there." you know, it was hard for me to listen to at first, and it was a
4:03 am
tough journey. you know, it's gotten to a point now, it's funny, the further i get away from it, the more i feel my parents' presence. they're with me every day. i'm curious, are you there? is your dad with you as you're walking through the holy land, as you're walking across the world? >> absolutely. joe, you remember when my father passed away at the kennedy center service afterward, we played "somewhere over the rainbow" when everybody was leaving the building. miraculously then, there was a rainbow over washington, d.c. i would be in these sometimes tough places of discomfort when i was traveling, not knowing if this was the right thing to do, am i trying to run away and escape something? in new zealand, i was having a tough day. i saw a rainbow. on the tenth anniversary of my father's death, there was a lot of stuff going on in the media about remembering him. i didn't want to be a part of it. i ran away from that. i was in iceland.
4:04 am
waterfall, beautiful rainbow. and it's just one of those things where i look up and see that rainbow, i go, that's dad saying hi. i talk to him every day. i get into a meditative state to try to think about how he would sound at a given moment, what advice he'd give me. i'd like to say i'm a work in progress. as it pertains to him, oh, my gosh, there's such a place of joy now. >> yeah. >> he's right by my side. >> all right. luke, thank you so much for being with us. the new book is titled "look for me there." >> nice work, luke. >> luke, we love you. >> so proud. >> thank you. >> luke, go bills. >> go bills. a dolphins fan said it. oh, wow, i love you. >> thank you, luke. >> go bills. as we get to the top of the hour, mike, i want to circle back to you for a second. i'm not even going to ask what tim would think about where the media is right now. >> oh, my gosh. >> where politics is right now.
4:05 am
it's just to put people in that timeframe, when you lost your best friend, when luke lost his father, it was in the middle of the 2008 campaign. it was even before barack obama was elected president of the united states. you know i'm an optimist, and i think america's greatest days ahead. let me just say, what a horrible 15 years politically this has been since tim's passing. what would tim think of where we are today? >> he'd think the same thing we think, joe. it is so incredibly depressing. our politics, the tone of our politics, the media coverage of our politics. that's on the morning of the new hampshire primary in 2008, i believe. "morning joe" was in its infancy. >> it was.
4:06 am
>> timmy was right there. that was a great morning. he was a lot of fun. he was very much excited about barack obama's candidacy when he died in june of 2008. he would be excited about politics today, but he would be, i think again, like us, it's viewed as a business. it's changed democratically. as has the media changed drastically. the impact of the internet on the media. the impact of filing online during the course of a day, a long day, filing stories at 1:00 in the afternoon that you'd originally take time to think about and file at 7:00, 8:00 at night. it's all different. the landscape of our world, our joint worlds, politics and the media, has drastically changed in the last 15 years since tim died. we'll turn to other news now, where ukraine is pushing back against russian claims that
4:07 am
tried to attack the kremlin, saying it only fighting on its own territory. russia released video of the alleged attack but nothing else. keir simmons has the latest. >> reporter: this is what the kremlin is calling an attempted assassination of president putin. after multiple videos werepost ed online, appearing to show an explosion on a dome inside the kremlin walls and the smoking aftermath. russia providing no evidence beyond the videos, saying two drones were disabled using electronic radar, and there were no injuries. accusing ukraine of targeting president putin ahead of moscow's victory day parade. thoselead r wasn't at the kremlin at the time. ukraine slamming it a russian trick. president zelenskyy with this denial. >> we don't attack putin or moscow.
4:08 am
we fight on, on our territory. we are defending our vilages and cities. >> reporter: the u.s. urging the world not to immediately trust russia's claims. >> i would take anything coming out of the kremlin with a very large shaker of salt. >> reporter: russia has accused ukraine of carrying out assassinations on russian soil, including the daughter of a putin ally blown up in a car bomb, and a pro-russian blogger killed when giving a speech at a cafe. ukraine denied involvement in both cases. president putin has been accused of sanctioning killings, too, including a former kgb officer in london in 2006, and the shooting of a prominent opposition leader outside kremlin walls in 2015. both of which the kremlin denies. accusations i asked the russian leader about two years ago. >> mr. president, are you a killer? >> translator: look, over my tenure, i've gotten used to
4:09 am
attacks from all kinds of angles. >> all right. joining the table here in washington, we have national security council coordinator for strategic communications tat white house, retired rear admiral john kirby. good to have you. >> thank you so much for being with us. i'd like to ask you the first question, but how can i when david ignatius is at the table? >> that's true. >> admiral kirby, i want to ask you about something that secretary blinken said yesterday. in an interview at "the washington post," he was asked by me whether ukrainian forces in their counteroffensive would make significant territorial gains. he said, yes, i think they will. along the long front, they'll punch through. what do you think? >> they certainly could. let me set the stage here a little bit. as you and i are speaking here, they have virtually everything that they have asked for to conduct offensive operations coming in the weeks and months ahead. as the weather gets better, the roads get firmer and drier. they have almost everything
4:10 am
they've asked for. in fact, yesterday, we announced another $300 million worth of security assistance, breaching equipment, ammunition, artillery, as well as artillery pieces. so they're well equipped and well trained. all that training we were going to do for those battalions outside of ukraine, that's complete, david. every single brigade they wanted trained has been trained. we're doing a few more right now. they've got everything they need to be ready. it really depends on where and when they decide to step off and where along the front they want to puncture. it also depends a lot on the russians. the enemy gets a vote. i agree with secretary blinken. they have everything they need. we have done a lot to get them ready. it'll depend a little bit on execution. >> admiral, do they have aircraft? do they have aircraft so they can do combined operations, which might be more effective? >> they do. they have a small but capable air force. the air space over ukraine is still contested.
4:11 am
you're not seeing either side really fly a lot of manned aircraft over ukraine. the russians, when they launch the cruise missiles, if they're going to ukraine air space, they go in for a little bit. they launch the missile and get out. they don't want to get shot down because the ukrainian air defenses are getting better almost every week. it's not a lot of manned aircraft. they've got some, but quite frankly, what they really need in this counteroffensive, what they said they need and what we're trying to get them ready for is combined arms maneuver. that's the infantry, the capabilities and military all together so you can operate in open ground, open terrain. again, they've done very well with the training, and we think that they've got everything they need for that. >> admiral, willie geist has the next question. willie? >> admiral, good morning. what has been the advice and counsel from the united states, from the biden administration toward president zelenskyy and the ukrainian military about attacking within the borders of russia? that was one of the reasons we were skeptical when this news broke yesterday, and many others
4:12 am
have been since, which was that ukraine knows this would be an escalation if they were to reach that far within russia. what has the united states told ukraine about that? >> obviously, we don't -- we certainly don't dictate the terms by which they defend themselves or the operations they conduct. however, we've been clear with them publicly and privately, that we do not encourage, nor enable, them to strike outside ukraine. >> odd to ask you questions so close. >> awkward. >> no podium. >> what is the latest we can assess this claim of an attack on the kremlin? obviously, secretary blinken said take it with a shaker of salt. >> large shaker of salt. >> do we have to increase the size of the shaker? secondly, i'm curious for your thoughts on a statement speaker mccarthy made when he was overseas in israel, when he was asked about russia and ukraine. the expectation was, in some respects, he would be skeptical of the war. in fact, he turned on the reporter and said, "russia
4:13 am
should leave ukraine." did that give you -- >> also talk about russia killing children, talked about the war crimes. >> i'm sort of curious for your general thoughts on what that says about our current political moment. >> the first question, we still don't really know what happened. we're not making an assessment right now. i did see comments from demetri peskov, saying we had something to do with it. i can assure you, there was no involvement by the united states. whatever it was, it didn't involve us. >> you're saying we didn't buy a drone from radio shack and launch it? >> with a walkie-talkie? we don't do radio shack. >> we don't know that, and we had nothing to do with it. peskov is lying there. pure and simple. then on the speaker, mccarthy, look, we welcome his comments about support for ukraine. we certainly agree that ukraine needs to continue to receive
4:14 am
support, as the president has said, for as long as it takes. you saw again, another package here this week. we're committed to that. we're glad to see that the speaker is, too. frankly, you know, if you look, there's a small minority, mostly in the house, of republicans who are becoming vocal about not supporting ukraine. but they are a small minority. most of the house republicans are still in favor of supporting ukraine. certainly, the leadership is, and we're grateful for that. there's been terrific bipartisan support here, and it's a good thing. again, speaker mccarthy's comments spoke to that. i agree with joe, it was heartwarming to also see him push back on the russian state reporter. he wasn't taking any good enough -- guff from these guys. they're propaganda weapons, nothing more. good to see him say that. >> speaker mccarthy sent a strong message to people who think you can divide americans over ukraine. not here. not now. jonathan lemire is in new york and has a question for you.
4:15 am
jonathan? >> admiral kirby, good to see i couldn't. i want to turn you to sedan, if you could update on the situation in terms of the fighting and also the effort to get americans out of that war-torn country. >> well, we have, as you know, jonathan, moved largely through ground convoys. state department estimates more than 1,000 americans. including, some were moved out of port sudan even yesterday and maybe even going into today. we have done a lot to inform americans, get them access to the information and the movements that they need to be able to get out of sudan. we'll certainly stay in touch with americans going forward. if they need assistance, we'll do that. >> the white house has been criticized, should you have seen this coming? >> again, i think we did see it coming, joe. for one thing, we've been warning americans since october vociferously and changed the adviory to a level four, not to be in sudan. when we did that, joe, we also
4:16 am
said, if you're going to stay in sudan, you do so at your own risk. we're not going to be able to evacuate, and, yet, we still tried very hard to get americans out. we made space available, tried to work with allies and partners to get space available on allied aircraft. we moved a lot. three bus convoys over ground to port sudan, overwatched by the u.s. milltory, consular officers at port sudan, to get them on ferries and ships, including a u.s. navy vessel. we worked hard to get them out of there. there wasn't -- just to be clear, the population size was not big. 16,000, most were dual nationals. the population of americans that wanted out was much smaller than that, a fraction. we worked hard to get them out of there. >> mike barnicle? >> admiral, off of the drone attack or the supposed drone attack on the kremlin, what, if anything, can you tell us about internal opposition to putin
4:17 am
within the kremlin, internal military unrest about the conduct of the war, and the price that the russian people have paid in terms of casualties? is it having an impact? does any of that have an impact on this? >> let's start with the last. i talked about this with reporters just earlier this week. just since december, mike, in the fighting, and largely the fighting has been around bakhmut and the donbas, but on the entire front since december, we estimate the russians have suffered 100,000 casualties. of those100,000ty casualties, over 20,000 are killed in action. 20,000 killed, 80,000 wounded. >> since when? >> since december, five months. >> just in five months, more killed in the last five months than we lost over 20 years. i mean, five times. >> the numbers are comparable to
4:18 am
the battle of the bulge, in terms of killed and wounded. that's just in five months, and it's not only in bakhmut, but it is largely in that. that's where most of the fighting has been. of the 20,000 killed, we estimate about half of them are wagner mercenaries. you know, largely convicts. he was cleaning out the jails and prisons to throw human flesh at this fight. they have suffered a lot. to mike's question, how much do the russian people understand that, it's not exactly clear. mr. putin has control over all the media in his country. obviously, he's not going to be honest with the russian people about the scope and scale of the casualties. of course, when we made that public, they came right out to try to refute it. it is also not clear exactly how mr. putin is getting his information or who he trusts and doesn't trust and sort of what the scope and scale there is. we do know that there has been increasing tension between the wagner group and the ministry of defense, the traditional russian army, that those two entities
4:19 am
are still at loggerheads. >> i want to ask about one other thing secretary blinken said yesterday, which is that if the ukrainians can push back the line and get some strategic advantage, the united states would welcome chinese efforts to try to mediate this conflict. >> yup. >> i want to ask mr. president biden himself would support that, would view some kind of parallel effort with china to get this conflict to adjust to peace. >> president biden would support any credible and sustainable effort at driving toward a peace in ukraine. if that can be done through china, as secretary blinken said, so be it. but it has to be credible and sustainable, david. that means that it has to be endorsed and supported by president zelenskyy. the one thing that president biden has said repeatedly is nothing about ukraine without ukraine, and it's just not clear right now that the chinese are in a position to put forth a
4:20 am
proposal that president zelenskyy can get behind. now, look, that can change over time. we all would like to see this war end as soon as possible, but it's got to be something that president zelenskyy can get behind. i would remind, he put forward a peace plan of his own, ten-point proposal, we are helping him actualize and get injected into the international system. that's got to be the starting point. >> white house national security council spokesperson john kirby, as always, thank you so much for coming in. >> thank you. >> great to see you. >> you, too. >> we appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," georgia senator raphael warnock joins us on the heels of yesterday's mass shooting in atlanta. he has a new call to action on gun violence. plus, one of our next guests says the best tool democrats have to mobilize voters ahead of 2024 isn't joe biden, it's donald trump. we'll talk about that. also ahead, the fatal stabbing death of cash app founder bob lee has heightened san francisco's reputation as a
4:21 am
dangerous city. jacob ward is digging into that. he joins us ahead. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. ♪ ♪ ♪ cargurus. shop.buy.sell.online. - representative! - sorry, i didn't get that. - oh buddy! you need a hug.
4:22 am
you also need consumer cellular. get the exact same coverage as the nation's leading carriers and 100% us based customer support. starting at $20. consumer cellular. staaaaacccceeeyyy! i'm the sizzle in this promposal. and tonight, sparks are gonna fly. kyle? and while romeo over here is trying to look cool, things are about to heat up. uh-oh. darn it, kyle! and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage,
4:23 am
you could end up paying for this yourself. sorry mr. sanchez! get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, like me. that's a hard no. so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond.
4:24 am
moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. and, they felt dramatic and fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers including lymphoma and skin cancer, death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq, as serious reactions can occur.
4:25 am
tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. disrupt the itch and rash of eczema. talk to your doctor about rinvoq. learn how abbvie can help you save. nordstrom is the latest business to join a retail exodus from downtown san francisco. the company cited dwindling foot traffic in the decision not to renew leases for two of its stores, including the one in the westfield mall, which placed blame for the departure partly on unsafe conditions for customers and employees, and urged city leaders to find a solution to combat, quote, rampant criminal activity. safety concerns were also cited for whole foods after the company announced last month it was shutting down flagship stores in the area. retailers anthropology and
4:26 am
office depot are also leaving. but france officials argue the city struggles to retain businesses, and it has less to do with an increase in crime but, rather, a problem with public perception. >> crime will do that. with us now, correspondent jake ward. jake, here's what i don't get. >> yeah. >> here we go. >> i love san francisco. >> yeah. >> i always loved san francisco. >> i know where you're going, go ahead. >> absolutely loved it. i take it personally when i go back to san francisco and it has become so much more dangerous. then i get lectured by people saying, oh, san francisco, this is how san francisco has always been. this is just a right-wing attack on san francisco. it's almost that argument, what are you going to do? are you going to believe me or your lying eyes? all of my friends that have gone there, people who -- i consider san francisco a magical city. >> it is, that's right. >> it is a dangerous, magical city now. i just want to know, where do
4:27 am
these statistic come from that people say, it's as safe as it's ever been? these are right-wing talking points. >> i think the complication here that we're all looking at is, first of all, let's point out, san francisco, for a city of less than a million people, has a pretty outsized national reputation. it's getting a lot of attention for this. the cash founder, bob lee, the stabbing murder downtown, you know, it's drawn, again, incredible reputational harm to that city. but in our look at the statistics, what we learned is that, in fact, the death of bob lee says a lot more about our assumptions as a nation about crime than it does about the crime itself. >> reporter: after bob lee's death in san francisco, many commentated that the killer was a homeless and mentally ill person. it was said on this podcast. >> the idea of releasing the people onto the street is an
4:28 am
outrageous abdication of responsibility. >> reporter: the man arrested was a tech consultant who knew the victim, according to the police. like the mistaken assumptions in that case, san francisco's dangerous reputation does not square with the data. >> san francisco has challenges with crime, with public safety, and we're doing everything we can to deal with it. but just because people are seeing it in a more hyped way because of social media videos and, sadly, sometimes people jumping to conclusions, it is unfortunately made san francisco a pit of a target. >> reporter: violent crime in san francisco is at historic lows, and the murder rate is similar to other cities itself wave. the bike connection saw its windows smashed repeatedly. have you had much in the way of property damage since then? >> thankfully, no, just vandalism things. we haven't had any major attempts to have our bikes stolen. >> no break-ins? >> no big break-ins. >> what about drug activity on
4:29 am
the streets, what do you see about that? >> that does seem to be worse. it seems like the fentanyl has really gotten to a lot more kids. >> reporter: and that is where san francisco really suffers. a fentanyl epidemic here, more than 200 overdose deaths in the first three months of the year, has the governor calling in the highway patrol and the national guard to help. the district attorney, brooke jenkins, criticized her predecessor's progressive reforms and ran on a platform of greater accountability. >> prosecutions and convictions are up. >> i've taken a very strong approach in sending a message, that this is not going to be something that we tolerate or take lightly, because of the fact we have so many overdose deaths. >> and should we be in any way doubtful that that's going to make a difference, considering that we're not seeing fundamental numbers like overdose deaths go down? those problems seem to be as bad as they've ever been. >> it is a two-fold situation. we have to have public health resources available to those who are struggling with addiction. while at the same time, law
4:30 am
enforcement does its job to make sure that those who are peddling fentanyl are taken off the street, or at the very least, are held accountable. >> reporter: while san franciscans are as safe from violent crime as they were in the '60s, jenkins says perception, as well as priorities, focuses on drug dealers. >> it's what people who come to san francisco work, to visit feel. irrespective of what the data show, we have a job to do, to address that feeling. >> reporter: but the city's public defender says that distracts from long-term policies that can help. >> people get more stable, we're less likely to have these kind of overdose deaths. >> more prosecution does not, in your view, solve that problem? >> not at all. we know that from 50 years of experience. >> so what we've really learned is san francisco deserves its national reputation around crime
4:31 am
when it comes to property crime and the overdose deaths and drug crime. but violent crime is as low as it's almost ever been, and it is that discrepancy, what you see on the street, the grittiness, the horror you see walking around, that is real, but it turns out not to correlate with a chance of being a victim of violent crime. >> san francisco in the '70s, the golden age, right. >> yes. >> i'll tell you, you didn't walk around the tenderloin district, you know, late at night very comfortably. there were, in fact, parts of the city south of market street that were really kind of seedy, and it's certainly compared to what they are now. now, it's like art galleries and museums and all this stuff, where it wasn't very nice back then. >> and i'm not sure how you would have also recorded it all and shared it with the world in the 1970s. >> exactly. exactly. so, you know, what we didn't have then was this huge, visible
4:32 am
homeless encampment, basically, with tents and everything like that. even though there was a homelessness problem even then. and i'm wondering, also, just in terms of downtown, the businesses have probably emptied out, like everywhere, because of the pandemic. isn't that why these retailers are closing down, restaurants? >> they don't -- >> also -- >> wait, wait, what are the laws, you don't get arrested unless you reach a certain level for property crimes? >> yup. >> come on, again, with all due respect, we're friends, at least we're friends on tv. >> you're friends. >> people love san francisco and want to go to san francisco. they don't go, i'm going to hate this, take a picture and post it on instagram. when people talk about their feelings, there is a reason why people who go to san francisco,
4:33 am
who love san francisco, have negative feelings. >> absolutely. >> i have associates who lived in san francisco and left in the last two years because of those feelings, perceptions and realities. >> realities. >> they don't -- i mean, look, the statistics are nuanced, obviously, but clearly, people within the city limits also feel like the city has changed. >> let me -- it was in the bay area. >> whole foods. >> right. >> nordstrom. >> yup. >> we have a good friend who went into a store about five minutes, people come in with guns. they -- you know, everybody gets on the floor. this is in a supposedly good part of town there. again, it's not just, quote, feelings. this isn't a morris song, 1970s throwback. people are in san francisco, and they don't feel safe. maybe they're not going to get shot in the head. >> let me just stack up a few factors here that i think everybody in this country should be thinking about when it comes to their own downtowns and what
4:34 am
is going on. here's what we have now that we didn't in the '70s and we have to deal with it at some point. open yoids. opioid opioids. fentanyl is making people fall out of their livelives, and we no answer. the pandemic cratered businesses, and in san francisco, 85% of the tax revenue comes from the downtown financial district, you have a place in which people are literally -- the industry invented the demise of the downtown quarter because everybody can work from home. those companies absolutely blew up their own leases by being the companies that said -- >> salesforce moved out of the salesforce tower, right? the biggest, the tallest tower. >> the names everywhere moved out, right? on top of that, you have a tremendous lack of investment in resources. there is no in-patient mental health city inside the city limits of san francisco. the closest is in napa, an hour away. >> crazy. >> you have people who have
4:35 am
serious mental illness and no resources at all. there's a movement right now in california to try to coerce people into treatment if they can get it. i was talking to public officials. they told me privately, they call that the court to nowhere. there is no services to help these people out. you have all those factors. joe, i do not disagree, when you walk the streets, it feels bad, you feel unsafe. all of us, local people, when we heard about the death of bob lee, and, of course, this is a feeling, but, again, feelings count, as we are discussing, i remember hearing about his death and thinking, what? he what? he was killed where, by who? it is so unusual in the experience of people who live in the bay area to think someone would randomly do that. of course, it was a person he knew. at least that's the alleged -- that's the person who was arrested here. >> right. >> there is absolutely a crisis in san francisco. that crisis is homelessness and fentanyl. the crisis is not dangerous crime. >> i'm going to get to willie geist.
4:36 am
it's not -- the crisis is not murders, those numbers are down. i will say, though, whether it's san francisco, whether it is new york, willie, if you're a siz visitor going to either city and the homeless population is way up, and there are people on the streets with mental health problems that need mental health treatment, and you're walking in areas where you used to walk without having people coming up screaming at you, without people making you feel less safe, that's how crime, violent crime may be down and, yet, people who are visiting or who work there feel less safe. i think that's something that is happening in washington, d.c. it's something that's happening in san francisco. it's something that's happening in new york. >> and that's what people mean when they talk about quality of life. they don't necessarily mean they think they're going to be murdered on a subway train. they just look around their city, and they see homeless people everywhere. they want the city to do better for those people.
4:37 am
and you go into a duane reade in new york city, and it is almost impossible to buy anything because it's all locked up. >> correct. >> that's not a decision made by businesses about feelings, that's a decision made because people are walking in with impunity and walking out with garbage bags full of their stuff. if you want to get -- by the way, it's not even expensive stuff anymore. it is almost everything. it's almost not worth it to go to the store. you go to amazon. you have to hit a button and summon somebody to get your toothpaste for you. that's a business decision made by the companies. it's part of the reason, and eric adams, 25 year veteran of the new york city police department, was elected to be mayor of new york city. because he ran on the question of quality of life and cleaning up the streets. so what is, jake, i would ask you in san francisco, and i have a lot of friends who live there, some of their businesses are moving out of downtown because of all this, what is, on a policy level, being done? we heard from the mayor there. we've heard from the d.a. we've heard from the police. what changes now because of this at least perception of what's
4:38 am
happening in san francisco? >> willie, great question. and i think, you know, the first one is to understand that multiple independent academic analyses have basically shown the actions of the d.a. tend to make no difference to fundamental crime rates. whoever it is, the recalled district attorney, tossed out of office last year, had different views of crime than the current d.a., jenkins, yet the fundamental numbers seem not to be truly changing. the big change we're hoping for and looking for in the bay area where i live is a shift in how, basically, the housing and real estate market works. right now, you've got downtown landlord, some of the biggest property owners in the world, and the words they're using with me, they're saying ten years. that's the amount of time they think it'll take to turn the downtown corridor around. in order for the timer to even begin, the first thing they have to do is slash rents. they're agreeing, we're not holding out for the astronom
4:39 am
astronomical rents we used to enjoy. we'll hand it over to arts districts, to people to get more back downtown. it has to do with presence of people in the downtown corridor. if you empty downdowntown, of course, you have to lock up the stores. you'll have the visible terrors happening in front of you. it is not until we can flood the downtown with actual people, working and living and coming there to enjoy themselves, that we're going to see a turnaround. you can't start the ten-year timer until that all changes. >> one of the things that comes through powerfully in the report you began with is cities need a mix of public health, mental health workers and also police. i'm curious whether you know of a city that's got that mix right? the thing that san francisco isn't doing yet adequately, a lot of cities aren't. is there a place you can point to where they're getting that
4:40 am
right, moving in the right direction? >> boy, that's a great question. i cannot name an american city that i would say has it nailed. there is a huge number of places that are making little in roads here and there when it comes to, for instance, alternative policing. call 911 in most american cities because someone is shouting in front of your house, you'll have police on site trained for an armed response, not de-escalation. you have cities now like albuquerque, new mexico, san francisco is one of them, oakland, that are changing the paradox to some extent. what you don't see, however, and i think it's because we judge political effectiveness election by election, you don't have people saying, we need a ten-year plan. one of the ten-year plans is sinking more than $1 billion into something like an in-patient mental health facility inside the city limits. or we're going to need to spend billions more to create enough housing for people in this country. those things have not -- they're not politically expedient to go forward. i will say, it's hard to find a
4:41 am
city doing it right in the country. >> at lot of moving parts. stay with us. there are major safety concerns that are coming with software. we'll discuss the future of a.i. and how it should be regulated with the ftc commissioner. she joins us next on "morning joe." with cpap for their sleep apnea. but stephanie got inspire, an implanted device that works inside the body. there's no reason to keep struggling. inspire. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? learn more and view important safety information we were loading our suv when... crack! safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ this week is your chance to try any subway footlong for free. like the subway series menu. just buy any footlong in the app, and get one free. everyone loves free stuff chuck. can we get peyton a footlong?
4:42 am
get it before it's gone. on the subway app. too many people have been left behind and treated like they're invisible. folks, my economic plan is about investing in places and people that have been forgotten. it■s about making things here in america again. it■s about good jobs. it■s about the dignity of work. and it■s about damn time we■re doing it. joe biden is determined to reward hard work. that■s why he passed historic laws that rebuild our roads and bridges, invest in our factories, and bring back american manufacturing. over 12 million jobs have been created. and joe biden■s building an economy that leaves no city, no town, no american behind. we■re investing in places and people that have been forgotten. they■ve been invisible. but we haven■t forgotten. we■re building an economy from the bottom up and the middle out where no one■s going to be left behind. joe biden. a president for all americans.
4:43 am
i■m joe biden, and i approve this message. - this is our premium platinum coverage map and this is consumer cellular's map. - i don't see the difference, do you? - well, that one's purple. - [announcer] get the exact same coverage as the nation's leading carrier. starting at $20. consumer cellular. - double check that. eh, pretty good! (whistles) yeek. not cryin', are ya? let's tighten that. (fabric ripping) ooh. - wait, wh- wh- what was that? - huh? what, that? no, don't worry about that. here we go. - asking the right question can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this? - what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - yeehaw! - do you have a question? - are you a certified financial planner™? - yes. i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest.
4:44 am
that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. find your cfp® professional at letsmakeaplan.org.
4:45 am
beautiful shot of the white house on this, what is it, thursday morning? i'm so confused. one of those weeks. >> washington, it must be thursday. >> in a few hours, kamala harris will meet with the ceos of four companies developing artificial intelligence. it comes as the white house rolls out a set of initiatives meant to balance safety concerns with the technology's potential to improve lives. joining us now, the chair of the federal trade commission, lina khan. she has a new piece for "the new
4:46 am
york times" entitled "we must regulate a.i. here's how." you say we really face a moment of choice right now as it pertains to a.i., so that perhaps history does not repeat itself. explain. >> that's exactly right. look, there's no doubt these a.i. tools could deliver enormous benefits and enormous advances for people's lives, but we as enforcers and regulators also need to be clear-eyed about the risks. look, there's no doubt, looking at the past two decades and how major social media officials evolves, we might have some regrets. being proactive at this moment in time can help ensure these technologies are delivering innovation but without subjecting people to predatory or exploited business models. and we have existing tools and existing laws on the books, and so a.i. may be new, but they don't enjoy some type of legal exemption or shield from the existing rules and the legal existing rules will apply. >> jake. >> you know, i interview these companies for a living. one of the attitudes they tend
4:47 am
to take is, this stuff is just the weather. you know, it's just blowing in, and we have to just adapt as a society to the rise of something like a.i. i wonder, from your perspective, commissioner khan, how are you, you know, thinking about their responsibility in shaping this and what tools we have as a society for actually having any input. right now, i'm not seeing that we have almost any input into it at all. >> the existing rules apply. we at the ftc have laws prohibiting deception, prohibiting discrimination, laws prohibiting unfair practices, laws prohibiting collusion. all of those laws apply here. so if you're a business and you're using a.i. to violate any of these laws, we're going to crack down on that. i think the other thing here, this is not -- how this technology develops is not an inevitability. we as policymakers face a choice that can set these technologies on a much healthier and beneficial trajectory, rather than a harmful one. >> can i ask one more thing?
4:48 am
i was interviewing an attorney in baltimore who represents clients. she and her law schools represent clients that have been denied their government benefits, snap benefits, housing, section 8 housing, all that stuff. when they try to go find out why they were denied, nobody can tell them. they can't pick up the phone. nobody is picking up the phone. they can't get to an office to see anybody because the agencies have began to adopt algorithms to make these decisions. they begin to adopt off the shelf a.i. systems. it creates this loop, where they can't even get anybody on the phone. to me, i wonder how you feel about the way in which the market pressure to adopt these systems, because you can replace people with them, is going to lead us into a world in which we turn out to have given away the human resources we need to make decisions and challenge decisions when we need to, in favor of these efficient, more efficient systems that you can't even look inside. >> that's absolutely a major risk here. these are black box algorithms, black box systems. they're being trained on
4:49 am
enormous amounts of data and information, but we have no checks on what type of information is being inputted. so these data sets can be rife with errors and bias. these tools can actually be automating the discrimination and mistakes on a massive scale. >> yeah. >> i heard the word "exemptions." now, this is going to open up -- >> here we go. >> one of my pet peeves, and it always ends up with section 230. but i remember during the pandemic, i had a friend who called me up. i never invest in the stock market because i don't like to lose money. said, you really need to invest in the stock market. i go, i don't do it. he said, invest in the monopolies. i said, monopolies? he said, yeah, facebook, amazon, google, microsoft, the monopolies. i go, why do you call them the monopolies? he said, because they're monopolies. did a little research.
4:50 am
sure enough, they're basically monopolies. then you have section 230, which, again, i know irritates a few people when i start talking about this, but here we are. we passed that law back in the '90s because we wanted to protect compuserve from a crank saying something in the comment section and compuserve getting wiped out. things have changed so much now. these are the most powerful companies in america. they are microsoft. they don't have to abide by the same laws that every other business in america has to apply by. that's all i want. if we say something -- >> accountability. >> -- that slanders somebody, we're sued. that's the way it should be. none of this applies to any of these companies. i want i want to know why and when is congress going to work with you do something about this? what can we do? if we can't get rid of section 230, reform it. >> these are valid concerns and
4:51 am
i think time and time again we've seen how the tech companies claim section 230 and unity to block off valid claims as the s.e.c. go after fraud and deception and the companies will cite 230 as some type of shield. so i think we've seen a grotesque expansion of how it is being used to claim immunity in ways that don't reflect the original goals or intent of the law. i think that congress has a responsibility anytime the underlying technology changes to revisit some of the assumptions. >> and time to revisit those now? >> i think so. >> and i want to ask about the issue about who to regulate ai. as you said, this is often a black box. we don't understand how the algorithms achieve the results that they come up with. we're learning that chatgpt sometimes tells lies to try to give us the right answer in quotation marks. and it is an extraordinary regulatory challenge to regulate things that we don't fully
4:52 am
understand. and if you could just explain to all of us how you are thinking about doing that, that could be helpful. >> so there are existing laws on the books that require companies to be able to explain decisions that they are making especially when those decisions determine whether people have access to health care and access to the financial system about and simply for a company to say the computer made me do it, the robot made me do it is not an answer. you have to be able to explain the decision making. and so companies should know that they can't just hide behind the black box nature of these algorithms. tell be accountable. >> and jonathan lemire has a question. >> i wanted to talk about security risks that might be your concern in terms of ai. the pentagon have expressed apprehension about it, also the idea of how it could be used for fraud, deep fakes and the like. how much are you trying to redistrict that as well? how much of a worry is this? >> it is certainly a huge worry. i think that we've already seen
4:53 am
how ai can be used to turbo charge fraud. basically these tools are enabling scammers to disseminate fake content, fraudulent content cheaply, quickly and on a massive scale. we've already been seeing how scammers are using voice cloning to make phone calls pretending to be somebody's family member in distress and cheating people out of thousands of dollars. we're seeing people use chat bots to generate highly precise and dangerous fishing scams that are deceiving and manipulating people into handing over sensitive information. >> i saw a story the other day that mother received a calling from her daughter she thought, she thought her daughter was being held by people. and it was all again an ai voice generated imitation. and a scam. and fooled the mother into believing that they did have her daughter. >> and how do we stop them like now? >> i believe this is really just the tip of the iceberg here.
4:54 am
we've been putting the market on notice that if you are for example creating ai tools that are effectively designed to deceive people, you can't just clean your hands of how they are being used. so the companies that are actually developing these tools may be on the hook. >> can i ask, the attitude of these companies very often when i speak to the heads of them is we are the ones who built the system, we're the only ones with the real expertise on this. and as a result we're the only ones who really have the experience, insight and creativity to think about how this would go. do you think that your office and regulators in general have the expertise and horse power they need to regulate this? >> the ftc was created over 100 years ago. congress charged us with staying up-to-date with the new technologies and we've been able do that and i have no doubt that as we continue to bring on additional expertise -- we just launched a new office technology, we're bringing on data scientists and experts in ai, and so as congress continues to give us more resources to
4:55 am
build out that expertise, i have no doubt that we'll be able to rise to that. >> what worries me talking about how journalism has changed and how politics has changed, if a mother can't tell the difference between a deep fake voice and her own daughter, imagine what will happen when we start seeing videos drop of horrible things politicians supposedly did the night before an election. or a politician coming on deep fake saying i'm going to slash social security and medicare or i love china. or you name it. like this is -- this poses a threat. >> it really does. there has got to be some way -- we see it coming. >> we know it is coming. when i saw this story about the mother, i texted it to my children and i said this is where we are now, but this is going to start happening.
4:56 am
be on guard. >> we see the train coming down the tracks. but, you know, we got to stop this. >> this is the whole thing, david. and it is what we're talking about here. it is like tech companies, like the weather, we're supposed to just sit back and do nothing about it. that is one of the maddening things about how tech companies have been pushed over in a corner and we're supposed to trust their algorithms? no. we're not. we saw what happened in 2016 when we did. >> the answer to bad tech is good tech. and digital forensics will be able i think to discriminate better and better between deep fakes and imagery that is real. and you'll be able hopefully at some point to have a way as a consumer, is that really my daughter or is that some -- >> right. >> but i trust you share the view that technology will help us get out of the technology binds. >> absolutely.
4:57 am
and i think you're right to know that there can be a sense of resignation, that we're all just relegated to whatever fake might be, you know, handed to us by the tech companies, but that is at odds with our history as a country. america has stayed on the cutting edge of innovation and key technological developments in part because we've ensuing that the government is setting clear rules of the road. >> we did for standard oil. why can't we for tech companies. >> exactly. for at&t, we saw huge amounts of innovation after the government took action to make sure that at&t was opening up its patent vault, was engaging in strong antitrust actions. so we can whichever that innovation once again. >> thank you so much for this conversation for coming on in this morning. we appreciate it. and jake, thank you for your reporting. >> great to have you here. >> and jake has a new book out. >> does he? >> uh-huh.
4:58 am
onment a i. make sense? it is entitled "the loop." how to fight back. jake, thank you very much. >> can't wait to read it. still ahead, we're learning more about how the texas mass shooting suspect was able to evade authorities for occasions. we'll have the latest in that investigation. plus some republicans on capitol hill are criticizing president biden for sending troops to the southern border, but they didn't feel the same way when former president trump did it in 2018. we'll show you how they are squaring that apparent hypocrisy.
4:59 am
i struggled with cpap every night. but now that i got the inspire implant, it's making me think of doing other things i've been putting off. like removing that tattoo of your first wife's name. inspire. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com. this week is your chance to try any subway footlong for free.
5:00 am
like the subway series menu. just buy any footlong in the app, and get one free. everyone loves free stuff chuck. can we get peyton a footlong? get it before it's gone. on the subway app.
5:01 am
in 2011, when republicans in the house stood strong on the debt ceiling again because democrats that had majority of the congress for two years had passed trillions in irresponsible spending and republicans stood strong and said we will not raise the debt ceiling without serious fiscal reform, what happened? then vice president joe biden came and negotiated a deal, a deal called the budget control act. vice president biden sat down with house republicans and reached a meaningful compromise. president joe biden needs to do the same thing and i'll say, sadly, the reason he hasn't so
5:02 am
far i believe is because his mental faculties are too diminish the right now. >> oh, right. >> hold on. he has such a point, his mental faculties are so i did minutished that he passed more biden -- signed more biden legislation. >> nts did even know that he was doing it. >> last year than any -- my god, if he were as company against as he was in 2011, he could have gone back to fdr.against as he was in 2011, he could have gone back to fdr. fighting russ? ukraine? >> and he only increased the 800 mile border, nato, with russia. >> but i guess, you know, he thought that he was -- >> hate it when that happens.
5:03 am
>> reminds me of ronald reagan speaking at harvard. he is making fun of his education and goes, you know sometimes i just sit her with the presidential seal in front of him and i wonder what i could have been with a good education. go back and read reagan, you will learn a lot. >> and joining us is the chair of the campaign committee, garrett peters of michigan. he is chairman of the homeland security committee. and also with us, writer the puck news, julia, yaffy. nice to have you back. >> senator, i'm a congress guy, and a mediocre former congressman, that is who i am, i embrace it. >> think about who you could have been with a good education. >> exactly.
5:04 am
if i had only gone to an ivy league school like ted cruz or josh hawley or any number of people that wanted to overthrow america's democracy. but anyway, we really want to julie about russia, but we really need to defer to a sitting senator first. so we're going to go to you first. and ask about the attack yesterday, the alleged attack. what is your best information, what have you heard? >> what i've heard, that the russians are fabricating, probably a false flag kind of operation where they are just -- they love misinformation, they love to stoke up things. and at least right now, i'm not aware of any evidence as to who may have been responsible or even if it occurred. >> could have been false flag operation, could have been a pro ukrainian group. but we're thinking that the radio shack drone probably
5:05 am
couldn't have made it from ukraine all the way to the kremlin. >> i think that is true, but it seems like it certainly seems like it was the ukrainians. i mean, if this was a false flag operation, it was a pretty dinky one. >> i'm confused. if it is the ukrainians, aren't they getting pretty good weapons from different countries and why would you -- dinky ukrainians? >> i'm saying if it had been a false flag russian false flag operation, that would have been a pretty dinky false flag operation. go big if you are going to do a false flag. i mean he killed hundreds of russians to become president. so this is like two little drones exploding. they didn't do any damage. to me it is pretty clear that it was ukrainians. if it was not -- not clear if it
5:06 am
is the government or people freelancing, but -- >> you believe that it is probably a pro ukrainian group. >> yes, i do. and i think somebody affiliated with ukraine somehow. >> as a demonstration? why -- because it wasn't going to hurt anybody. >> just to show what we can do? >> exactly. there was the ukrainian businessman who offered tens of thousand of dollars to anybody who could land a drone on red square. these people got pretty close. it does show something, right? you know, russia went into this war being called the second military in the world. the second best military in the world. and they can't even take bakhmut, they have been fighting for it since august. and now the joke is that the russian army is the second best army in ukraine. >> right. so how did this happen? how did we not see it coming, how did intel services not see it coming? how did the world not see it
5:07 am
coming? we had john kirby on earlier talking about the number of russian deaths. and he said if you just look since december, it is like battle of the bulge numbers. >> how did this whole thing happen? >> how did we not understand just how terrible russia's military was? >> i think some of us did, but as you recall after 2016 and russia's interference in the u.s. presidential election, there was this i would call it hysteria in the u.s. and everybody including in the press, people who had never been to russia, who don't know the country, don't know the language, were talking about russia as this giant amazing super power, they were all ten feet tall amazing planners, executioners --
5:08 am
>> didn't we do that with soviet union? >> and some of us were saying at that time that the russians are not as good as you think. their evil is mitigated only by their stupidity and corruption. but for some reason we feel the need maybe because our adversary has to be as amazing as we are, but we built them up. but experts were telling us that they are not that good. the whole thing is rotted through with corruption and that is what we saw when russia launched its full-scale invasion in february of 2022. soldiers were strapping logs to their cars, to their vehicles, to try to get some kind of, you know, protection. they were stealing food from the local stores because their mres were rotten and were ten years old. because everything was stolen.
5:09 am
>> and i remember general herdling saw russian tanks moving through towns and he said look at how undisciplined they are. they don't even know how to move their divisions through towns. and just the incompetence top to bottom. >> there is no question. but you never really know anned a adversary until they are in combat. it is said that every military plan falls apart once you are actually engaged in activity. so you don't know for sure. and i think also from a planning perspective from the united states perspective, you always want -- you don't want to underestimate a potential adversary. that is probably the biggest mistake you can make. i'd rather overestimate. if you underestimate, you could find yourself in real trouble. >> i do wonder, david, and this is something that we do in the united states, soviet union
5:10 am
started collapsing and it was japan that was going to turn us into its grainery. it is china now. i've been he hearing from people since 2004 how china was going to eat our lunch and destroy us. and i'd much rather have our problems than china's problems right now. and by the way, speaking of overestimating a military force, china doesn't have a single general who has ever taken a single unit into battle with gunfire going on around them. not once. i wonder if we're overestimating china's power the same way we've overestimated russia's power, the same way we overestimated japan's economic power in the late 1980s. >> cia used to refer to the 10 feet tall syndrome, this inevitable seeming tendency to overexaggerate the strength of our adversaries. cynical people say it is driven by a desire to get ever larger defense budgets.
5:11 am
one point that i would just make and ask you both, we overestimated the russians but we radically underestimated our allies the ukrainiance. i'm curious what you think as we head toward this ukrainian offensive about whether they may again surprise us. we didn't think that they could resist kyiv, that they could break through in the east. what do you think about what is ahead this summer and what is possible for them? >> well, i think you're right, it was underestimated. we got the reports prior to the russian invasion that the ouagadougouian military wasn't going to last very long in combat. that was very wrong. the bravery of the ukrainian military and people was quite evident. they are fighting for their homeland. they have a deep interest in this, they are fighting for their homes and families. and whenever an army goes to battle when you have that on the line, you will fight in a highly
5:12 am
spirited way. and what we're seeing on the russian side are conscripts. and you talk about the losses. these are folks that don't have training and don't have -- they are being forced to run into an enemy that is determined to fight. so you can always look at the weapon systems and what loi gis ticks supports the army has. but the real fighting spirit is what makes a difference on the battle field. the men and women out there in harm's way. clearly oouks ianukrainians hav spades. >> and you can explain to viewer viewers how vladimir putin, how russians watching state media might be more susceptible to some of the propaganda about ukraine not being a country since they were born, a country
5:13 am
that ukraine was a part much just like texas is a part of our country. i'm equating nothing. but i'm just explaining we sit here going how in the world could they be so stupid. well, if you are 65, if you are 70, if you are 75 years old, you grew up and ukraine was the bread basket of the soviet union. good yeah, i think that you've hit the nail on the head. i think for soviet baby boomers, people born -- and there was a baby boom in the soviet union after world war ii. these people are now in charge in russia, these are people of putin's generation. and they only know ukraine as a province of the soviet union. and they do not understand that it is now a separate country. that said, they could have gotten used to the idea because it has been a hell of a long time. it has been over 30 years. >> kind of like a breakup. get over it, it has been a
5:14 am
generation. >> for some of them, it is almost half their lives that ukraine has been a separate country. and that is where the propaganda piece comes in. these people are often not technologically savvy. they rely on television to get most of their information from. and vladimir putin as a member of their generation understood that. and it was his first order of business as president to take over all the big tv stations. he wasn't as concerned at first with newspapers, he certainly didn't understand the inter-tubes. he wanted to take over the television because he knew that is where people get their news. and if you watch russian state tv, which i do so you don't have to -- >> thank you. >> -- it is really -- i mean, it is a parallel universe. and it has been that way for a long time. i know a lot of people that age who still can into the get it through their heads that ukraine
5:15 am
is a separate country, that georgia is a separate country, that estonia, latvia, are separate countries and have been. >> and we'll go to willie to talk about the debt ceiling, but i have to ask while you are here, not our intention to keep talking about tucker, but i do -- since you watch russian television, i think a lot of us were stunned that it is one thing for rt to play his clips, that makes sense since he was saying what they wanted to hear. but were you even surprised that lavrov talked about the firing of tucker carlson from an american cable network? >> no, i'm not surprised. russian state tv was all over this news. they were just in mourning and they made tucker carlson seem like the only truth teller on american television. so sorry to tell you it was him. >> russians usually love
5:16 am
brzezinskis. so is this hard news for mika to take. >> the way they spun it is that tucker carlson got fired by the american elites for speaking the truth about ukraine, about ukraine as a fake country run by nazis that is just a puppet regime of the american state. and that is why he was fired. some of them even speculated -- they called him a christian man of principle, the only truth teller on television. and one of them even speculated that the democratic establishment forced murdoch to fire him as part of the dominion deal. >> okay, debt ceiling. >> because rupert does listen to nancy pelosi for advice on his network. >> all the time. >> maybe now would be a great time to go to the debt ceiling, willie. >> okay. let's move along then. senator peters, i want to ask you about debt ceiling.
5:17 am
we had the clip of ted cruz deeply concerned about the acuity of president biden. but the issue here is the debt ceiling. and what republicans have said that they will hold up to extract some spending cuts. that is coming from kevin mccarthy at the top of the house and other republicans as well. the white house and democrats have said this is not a negotiation. is this pro forma, this is something we do, we can talk about the budget in a separate conversation if you want to. but that is not flying with republicans. so where does this end? is there a chance that the united states defaults? >> well, we got to do everything we can to make sure that doesn't happen. obviously default is catastrophic if that occurs. we heard the federal reserve chair say that it is unbelievable we're even talking about a possible default as something that the united states would not pay its bills. basically republicans are
5:18 am
extracting a hostage here, which is the american economy, and should there be a default,le have people's retirement savings will get hit, you will see increased interest costs for the taxpayers as well as costs for mortgages and cars. it has major impact on families across the country. we will certainly talk about how we spend money and how we can reduce the deficit, but the debt ceiling is not something that should ever be debated. there should never be a discussion of default. it is basically a default on the american people if the republicans continue to go down that path. we have to stand firm and i know the president will be engaged with republicans next week to make it clear that default is never an option. >> is it likely that the can just gets kicked down the road
5:19 am
several weeks? i mean, it is a ridiculous way to run a country, but is that likely now do you think? >> we don't accept that at all. kicking the condition down the road is only going to meenlg that you are just -- >> nobody steps it. the republicans don't, you guys don't, but isn't that likely what is going to happen? >> uncertainty also creates costs. we saw that movie last time. republicans tried to hold the economy hostage, cost billions of additional interest costs. actually increased the deficit because they are playing with fire with the deficit -- or with the debt. it is simply unacceptable. >> and from where i sit, and i don't know david if you would agree with me, like national security issue as well. you know, when we keep playing chicken with our finances and the dollar, the fact that the dollar is one of the main
5:20 am
reserve currencies of the world, people -- >> already spent. >> but the fact that we're one of the reserve currencies is one of the things that makes us rich. and when we -- >> you're right. it go to the question that the chinese keep posing, russia too, you democracies can't get your act together. you can't even run a budget. you know, how in the world would your -- and here is a demonstrations case almost. you can't really believe that people are holding our financial credbility at risk. >> and i was watching russian state tv last night -- >> you really do watch it. >> i should get hazard pay. >> and the clips i see, it looks very entertaining. >> you need more like dr. evil
5:21 am
vibes in here. but this is one of their main talking points now is that we're on the verge of default and why are we and the world still using the dollar as a reserve currency. screw that, we should use the ruble. but they are constantly talking about us as on the verge of default. >> and what is so funny is, you know, they get up and they're all standing around and -- >> they are like nuke this, nuke -- >> oh, my gosh. >> i guess it is not funny, because i'm old and -- >> mediocre. >> old and mediocre. i get to congress in 1994 and bob kerry, first thing he was saying when we were talking about balancing the budget, we can't kick the can down the road
5:22 am
any longer. that can has been kicked down the road -- >> a long road i guess. >> very long road since the '80s. and a republican that came to congress sort of obsessed about fiscal issues, i've seen throughout my lifetime, deficits and debt explode when republicans are in the white house. and when republicans are in the white house, republicans on the hill don't give a damn about deficits that you can go back like to my very mediocre twitter account and see time and time again the trump administration saying come on, republicans, stand up on the deficit. stand up on -- they never did. never did. never cared about it. >> and the deficit increased dramatically. record numbers in the trump years. and so the deficit went up with the republicans and they passed the debt ceiling without any question. and yet now you have a democrat
5:23 am
that are going to hold the country hostage basically saying we're going to blow up the economy if we don't get our way. that is what the republicans are demanding. and it is unacceptable. >> senator, julia, thank you. appreciate what you do. still ahead, we're following the latest developments in yesterday's mass shooting in atlanta. what we're learning this morning about the gunman, the five victims and the investigation. plus the federal reserve raises its key interest rate, highest level in 16 years. steve rattner explains what it all means for us in the fight against inflation. and later this hour, award winning actor kiefer sutherland joins us with a look about his new show about the battle to preserve democracy in a world at odds with misinformation. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash.
5:24 am
but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. and, they felt dramatic and fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers including lymphoma and skin cancer, death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq, as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. disrupt the itch and rash of eczema. talk to your doctor about rinvoq. learn how abbvie can help you save.
5:25 am
the maga republicans in congress are threatening to throw america into default, crashing our economy. their latest radical demand? they want to repeal investments in affordable clean energy and manufacturing that are already creating hundreds of thousands of jobs across america. their reckless demands will kill countless american jobs even jobs in their own hometowns. because for maga extremists, it's never about your jobs or our economy. it's always about pushing their extreme agenda.
5:26 am
- this is our premium platinum coverage map and this is consumer cellular's map. - i don't see the difference, do you? - well, that one's purple. - [announcer] get the exact same coverage as the nation's leading carrier. starting at $20. consumer cellular. if you care about clean air, you should know president biden's infrastructure laws are reducing pollution and creating clean energy jobs. more solar. more wind. made in america. tell joe biden to keep working for more jobs and less pollution.
5:27 am
when i was his age, we had to be inside to watch live sports. but with xfinity, we get the fastest mobile service and can stream down the street or around the block! hey, can you be less sister, more car? all right, let's get this over with. switch to xfinity mobile and get the best price for 2 lines of unlimited. just $30 a line per month. i should get paid more for this. you get paid when you win. from xfinity. home of the 10g network. investigation gators in
5:28 am
atlanta still searching for a motive in the deadly mass shooting. at least five women inside a medical center were shot, one of them fatally, when a gunman opened fire inside a waiting room. after an eight hour manhunt the suspect deion patterson was arrested in a neighboring county just north of where the shooting took place. joining us now from atlanta is morgan chesky. what more do we know about what happened there yesterday? >> reporter: and this is the jail that 24-year-old deion patterson was booked in to late last night by authorities. the manhunt took the better part of all day and ended at a condo complex in neighboring cobb county. but you can imagine the chaos that started when authorities say patterson walked into atlanta's north side hospital, went up to the 11th floor and pulled out the handgun opened fire and killing a one and
5:29 am
wounding others. authorities were very clear in providing an update that the public was critical in providing locations following his escape from the hospital. about 30 minutes after the shooting, they were able to use license plate recognition cameras to identify the vehicle that he stole from a neighboring parking garage and find it on a road about 30 miles away hours followed, the manhunt increased, and late yesterday officers were able to move in on a building that they had seen him walk inside using another surveillance camera. and that is when patterson was taken into custody without incident and brought here to fulton county jail. as for any potential motive at this point in time, authorities have not shared any. we do know that as the shooting took place, we believe that patterson was accompanied by his mother, although she was not injured in any way during the shooting. authorize do we believe that she's shared anything with authorities as to the attack.
5:30 am
as for right now though, we're waiting to hear the official charges against the 24-year-old whose only weapon was a handgun inside that hospital. >> sounds like an extraordinary scene at that apartment complex where an undercover officer spotted the man and finally was able to take him into custody without incident as police officers descended on that complex. but morgan, i know we don't know exactly what motive is here, but we did hear from his mother as you mentioned who suggested that he was seeking new care, that maybe he had been under the care of the department of veteran affairs. do we know anything else about that? >> reporter: we know that he was discharge from the coast guard in january. and as you said, he was believed to be seeking? sort of mental health. but outside of that, very few details are being shared by authorities right now who are still calling it an incredibly
5:31 am
active investigation. >> all right. morgan chesky from atlanta, thanks so much. a terribly sad scene. a 38-year-old woman who worked for the cdc killed while sitting in that office doing her work. four others injured and sent to the hospital in critical condition. >> and unfortunately, here we go again. and democratic senator warnock of georgia spoke on the senate floor yesterday following the shooting in his home state. >> i think that the unspoken assumption is that this can't happen to me. this won't happen to me. it won't happen to people that i love. but with a mass shooting every day? truth is chances are great. i shudder to say it, but the
5:32 am
truth is in a real sense it is only a matter of time. that this kind of tragedy comes knocking on your door. as a pastor, i'm praying for those affected by this tragedy, but i hasten to say that thoughts and prayers are not enough. and in fact, in fact, it is a contradiction to say that you are thinking and praying and then do nothing. it is to make a mockery of prayer. >> coming up, senator jon tester is running for re-election in a political battleground that republicans hope to turn red in 2024. the montana democrat is standing by and he joins the table straight ahead on "morning joe." straight ahead on "morning joe." hey, man. you could save hundreds for safe driving with liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance.
5:33 am
so you only pay for what you need! whoo! we gotta go again. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ meet stephanie... goodnight! and bethany... [guhhnnaaaghh] identical twins. both struggle with cpap for their sleep apnea. but stephanie got inspire. an implanted device that works inside the body to help her sleep. unlike her sister. there's more than one way to treat your sleep apnea. if you struggle with cpap, look into getting inspire. inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com. somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months.
5:34 am
in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. thanks to clearer skin with skyrizi - this is my moment. there's nothing on my skin and that means everything! ♪nothing is everything♪ now's the time. ask your doctor about skyrizi, the #1 dermatologist-prescribed biologic in psoriasis. learn how abbvie could help you save. this week is your chance to try any subway footlong for free. like the subway series menu. just buy any footlong in the app, and get one free. everyone loves free stuff chuck. can we get peyton a footlong? get it before it's gone. on the subway app. there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable,
5:35 am
cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's one less thing to think about while traveling. hiv pills aren't on my mind. a quick change in my plans is no big deal. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection-site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. every other month, and i'm good to go. ask your doctor about every-other-month cabenuva.
5:36 am
5:37 am
the federal reserve again raised interest rates this time by a quarter point. it was the tenth interest rate hike in just over a year. this time though it did signal it could pause further increases. the central bank has been battling high inflation while dealing with high profile bank failures. steve rattner is over at the big wall. it is the southwest wall we're told in our studio with his charts. steve, gmg. good morning. so a quarter of a point, but perhaps the end of the road may be here in terms of interest rate hikes? >> that's right. so it was as you say the tenth increase and that is when you look here, actually the fastest rate of increase we've had in any fed tightening cycle certainly in modern history. this red lionel is the late '70s and early 80s. you see where it got to. and these are the other ones since then.
5:38 am
inflation got away from us during the pandemic as everybody knows and the fed had to move aggressively to try to tamp it down. and then as you said the fed did signal that there might be a pause. they took some language out of a previous statement saying that they would likely to continue to raise rates and suggested again a pause. and that is what the market thinks. the market thinks there is an 89% chance that at the june meeting roughly a month from now that there wouldn't be a hike. this can shift around anytime. as you suggested, part of what is driving the fed here is the fact that we've had these three big bank failures. an old saying that when the fed hits the brakes, somebody slams throughout windshield and that what has been happening. so the fed will see if all of this has the impact they want to have before they decide to go further or not. >> the thing is, kids that were awakened a couple minutesing go
5:39 am
to see uncle steve's wall of charts, they are all asking the same question. yes, uncle steve, but where is core inflation right now. >> those kids. >> ma, bring me more milk. >> i know everybody wants to know what is happening with core inflation. so here is what is happening with core inflation. which is to say almost nothing. what is core inflation since you decided that you would go down that rabbit hole, core inflation is what happens when you take out the volatile categories like food and energy and things like that and you get right down to what we call core services. everything from lawyers to television hosts. and what you see here is that core inflation has really been stuck at this 4.5% number that came out a few days ago.
5:40 am
and that is way above the fed's 2% target and of course way above where it was before the pandemic hit. so why is it stuck there? in large part because of wages. that is the single biggest cost component for most businesses and wages you can see the trajectory following almost the same path and wage increases in terms of total employment cost is now about 4.8%. so you have 4.8% here, 4.5% there, not surprisingly that is the kind of relationship that you expect to see you. so this needs to get lower before that is likely to get lower. and that is what the fed will be watching. and if it doesn't get lower, you will have more interest ra increases at some point. >> so let's discuss pressure on inflation. ronald reagan says recession is when your neighbor doesn't have a job, but a depression is when you don't have a job. but big wheels keep on rolling. i mean, the job market stayed
5:41 am
hot. we had some positive numbers yesterday. why isn't the job market cooling off, and why do americans feel so bad about where the economy is? if you look at right track/wrong track. and unemployment numbers are as good as they have ever been. in fact unemployment among plaque americans lowest ever, black men unemployment lower than white men right now. and yet you hear story after story of how people of color don't think that joe biden has done enough in this economy. >> yeah, it is a tale of two economies. talk about it. >> that is a great question. and so look in terms of the overall job market, it is quite strong and we have 3.5% unemployment rate. we've been adding jobs at a still substantial pace although that has come down. we were adding jobs at 700,000 a
5:42 am
month on average at the peak coming out of the pandemic, and now we're down to just around 300,000 jobs. and that is still way above historic average going back before the pandemic of about 175,000 jobs or so. so the great american job machine so to speak continues to grind on. and same thing with job openings. we had almost 12 million at the peak and now down just under 10 million, but still about 1.6 jobs for everybody looking for a job. so there is no reason almost that people who want a job won't be able to finden would. as to why americans still feel the economy is so bad, you and i have talked about it, i don't have a great answer. it has been that way for a long time. if you even go back really i think since the great financial crisis, most of the time you will find americans are fairly down about the economy. i think that we are still facing
5:43 am
the possibility of a recession. it will be hard for the fed to get to 2% without getting all these numbers down and that can look like a recession at some point. and so i think that it is people feeling okay about today, but worried about the future. coming up, kiefer sutherland is our guest, his series rabbit hole is one of the most in demand shows on streaming right now. and we'll talk about the upcoming finale straight ahead. upcoming finale straight ahead
5:44 am
- this is our premium platinum coverage map and this is consumer cellular's map. - i don't see the difference, do you? - well, that one's purple. - [announcer] get the exact same coverage as the nation's leading carrier. starting at $20. consumer cellular.
5:45 am
new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today.
5:46 am
so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. and this is ready to go online. the uk's #1 skincare any questions? -yeah, i got one. how about the best network imaginable? let's invent that. that's what we do here. quick survey. who wants the internet to work, pretty much everywhere. and it needs to smooth, like super, super, super, super smooth. hey, should you be drinking that? -it's decaf. because we're busy women. we don't have time for lag or buffering. who doesn't want internet that helps a.i. do your homework even faster. come again. -sorry, what was that? introducing the next generation 10g network only from xfinity.
5:47 am
the future starts now. we moved out of the city so our little sophie could appreciate nature. but then he got us t-mobile home internet. i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? what, we have a ton of mulch. sign in. >> mind holding on to that? that is a bomb. don't move. you move, it detonates. if i hear any alarms, i detonate the bomb. understand? good. i'll be right back. >> no one has ever succeeded in toppling a democracy as ours.
5:48 am
but a country rife with anger and division is a job already half done. you have to have absolute trust in the plan. >> this is going to hurt. >> all right. that is a clip of the new series "rabbit hole" airing now on paramount plus. this week is the season finale. the show follows john weir, a private espionage operative who gets caught up in the fight for preserving democracy. joining us for you emmy-award-winning actor kiefer sutherland who plays the krakts john weir. great to have you on the show. and talk about a timelyjohn wei. great to have you on the show. and talk about a timely series. we talk about misinformation every morning. and it is what you are in the middle of in every episode. >> yes, it is unfortunate that
5:49 am
it is as timely as it is, but certainly misinformation is something that i think is a society given present technology that we're struggling to find out what is in fact the truth. and this show explores how that information can be man inlated and my character is someone who is having a really bad series of days where he is being framed for something that he didn't do and the show centers around his effort to prove his innocence. >> you are also the executive producer. talk about your characters and the concept of disinformation which this really explores when -- it gets in the wrong hands. >> and creators of the show, we all kind of fell in love with these thrillers from the '70s.
5:50 am
parra lax view, three days of condor. but we wanted to create a show about that with the backdrop of what is concerning us now in the society. and so the real threat in the context of our show is that move toward a talker seat and threatening of democracy. and the way to do that is to manipulate using technology to manipulate information and create disinformation. and my character is someone who used that, who used that on wall street and manipulated certain companies against the companies that he was working for to drive down their stock prices. so he was guilty of this as well but now it has turned on him and he has to and he has to try and prove his innocence and also take on this potential threat to democracy. that's where the show lays. >> speak to this character being thrust into this situation. obviously a lot of people
5:51 am
watching remember you as jack bauer on "24." this is a very different type of role. >> it is. i think jack bauer smiled maybe once in nine seasons, and that was when he killed nina myers. john has a much better sense of humor. i guess my clearest definition would be jack would run into the fight and john would try to run away from it as fast as he could. >> you mentioned "three days of the condor," great movie. watching the clip of this new program of yours, it struck me that the costs of just what i saw on the screen are movie making costs. it's now a movie that you do in seven segments. the incredible change in your business, talk about that. >> well, i actually started to
5:52 am
see that with "hill street blues" way back in the early '80s and with "e.r.." these shows had tremendous production value. i've been asked what is the difference between working on a television show and working on the film. it's simply time. with "24" we were making the equivalent of 12 films a year, so we spent a lot of time doing that. but the technical ways we create a television show versus a film are exactly the same. >> here's a clip from the episode where your character attempts to get the right action out to people. take a look.
5:53 am
>> i didn't quite know what to make of your e-mail. you could have been a crank or a kidnapper or something. >> technically, i suppose i am. >> yes, according to this. >> the reason i'm bringing this to you and i'll be brutally honest, most people in society don't trust the news unless it's feeding the narrative they already here. but you have integrity and command respect. on this thumb drive is everything you need to know about the people responsible for the assassination of senator evers. that's just the tip of the iceberg. this is a widespread conspiracy to take over the united states of america. moreover, i can bring you a dead man you can resurrect on television to expose it all. i only have one condition, that this is presented on live
5:54 am
television. >> i think i have a few favors i can call in. what else? >> well, kiefer, that's pretty tense. set the stakes a little bit as to what we're watching. >> i was trying to get a respected journalist that was respected on both sides of the political aisle to help me put up some information and tell the story of everything that's happened in the series up until that moment. the reason why i really like that scene and why i thought it really rang true to me, when you think back to the days of someone like walter cronkite, i always think of that moment when the nixons were in the white house and walter cronkite had made the narrative that the vietnam war is unwinnable. i always admired that moment
5:55 am
because as a nation we needed these true voices to tell us where we were. whether you think of walter cronkite or mr. murrow, it's important we share the same news cycle in order for us to react. it didn't mean you didn't have different points of view politically, but two plus two was four and we all accepted that. in the context of our story that woman is a journalist who is respected by the nation. if she tells the people what, in fact, is happening using that thumb drive, the american people will believe that. >> you were in a business where if it's not on the page, it's not on the stage. you mentioned stories several times. what about the writers strike now? how is that going to impact you and others in your business? >> we're out of work. absolutely nothing can happen in
5:56 am
our business without the writers. obviously no one wants to have a strike, but there's a lot of things that are happening that have to be discussed. how is a.i. going to potentially threaten intellectual property, et cetera. i, like everybody else, hopes there will be a resolution soon. but the world is changing around us and the technology with which we tell stories is changing immensely. that will have to be addressed and hopefully quickly and efficiently and we'll all get back to work. absolutely nothing happens without the writers, so i wish them the best. >> the season 1 finale of "rabbit hole" airs this sunday on paramount plus. coming up, republican
5:57 am
hypocrisy following new plans by the white house to send troops to the southern border ahead of an expected surge in migrant crossings. plus, house speaker kevin mccarthy received praise this week for his full-throated response to a russian supporter questioning america's support for the ukraine war effort. r effort b ♪ ♪ why are there two extra seats? are we getting a dog? a great dane? two great danes?! i know. giant uncle dane and his giant beard. maybe a dragon? no, dragons are boring. twin sisters! and one is a robot and one is a knight.
5:58 am
and i'll be on the side of... the octopus. rawr!!! the volkswagen atlas. more room for possibilities. what are folks 60 and older up to these days? getting inspired! volunteering! playing pickleba...! the first time you made a sale online with godaddy was also the first time you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. we just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. start an easy to build, powerful website for free with a partner that always puts you first. start for free at godaddy.com for copd, ask your doctor about breztri.
5:59 am
breztri gives you better breathing, symptom improvement, and helps prevent flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vison changes, or eye pain occur. if you have copd ask your doctor about breztri. the maga republicans in congress are threatening vison changes, or eye pain occur. to throw america into default, crashing our economy. their latest radical demand? they want to repeal investments in affordable clean energy and manufacturing that are already creating hundreds of thousands of jobs across america. their reckless demands will kill countless american jobs
6:00 am
even jobs in their own hometowns. because for maga extremists, it's never about your jobs or our economy. it's always about pushing their extreme agenda. diabetes can serve up a lot of questions, like, "what is your glucose?" and "can you have more carbs?" before you decide... with the freestyle libre 2 system know your glucose level and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed. manage your diabetes with more confidence. and lower your a1c. the number one doctor prescribed cgm. freestyle libre 2. try it for free at freestylelibre.us
6:01 am
we're not saving the planet with windmills. if anything, you're hurting the planet and you're certainly killing the birds. have you ever looked under a windmill? if you want to see a cemetery for birds, just walk under a windmill. >> i'm like that guy, that spanish guy who fought the windmills. >> don quixote.
6:02 am
>> fine, i'll look it up. >> who was it? >> never mind. >> welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe" at 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. >> what's with windmills? >> i don't know. >> he's really obsessed. >> he's got an obsession. there are more calls for action on gun violence following yet another deadly mass shooting in america, the latest at a medical center in atlanta, prompting an impassioned plea from georgia senator raphael warnock. he'll join us later this hour. on capitol hill, lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are dismissing a temporary fix on the debt ceiling, giving congress very little time to get a deal done. we'll have the latest on the contentious negotiations. meanwhile, senator john tester of montana says the debt ceiling proposal from house republicans
6:03 am
would hurt veterans. senator tester joins us now. also amy walter joins us and symone sanders townsend. good to have you all at the table. >> senator, why don't we substantiate yesterday with the supposed assassination attempt on vladimir putin. that's at least what russia is calling it. what can you tell us? >> i don't have the latest facts on it, but at this moment in time i don't think you can confirm this was done by the ukrainians at all. that's just where we're at. i'll get a briefing on it later this morning, but there's no evidence out there that's the case. >> it's fascinating that a couple of days ago we get news of leaked documents that show
6:04 am
putin's people are preparing to tell the propagandists that things aren't going to go as well in ukraine over the next several months that they expected and to prepare them for greatly diminished expectations. then suddenly, a radio shack drone hits the kremlin. did you see that thing? >> it's like, hey, look over here. it's completely not credible. >> that's a good impression of a drone. >> i've tried to fly a radio shack drone before and it ended up like that one. >> literally he did. it was in a tree. >> they obviously had more experienced drone flyers working for the kremlin than you perhaps. still, the russians were not able to make an attack on themselves, which this probably was, look credible, much less an attack on ukraine. >> you think it was a false flag operation?
6:05 am
>> they do that a lot. they've done it in the past. i know that the white house yesterday, their statement was, we don't have enough information to confirm whether this was a false flag information. that's a hint. >> amy, we talked about it off the top. very interesting that kevin mccarthy said that he will stand by mtg until the bitter end. he certainly didn't do that for ukraine. certainly made me exhale when he went after the russian journalist. no, no, no, we're standing shoulder to shoulder. you're killing kids. you need to get out of ukraine now. >> i think it highlights the fact that inside the caucus and, quiet frankly, inside the republican party that position
6:06 am
of marjorie taylor greene about ukraine, about america's role in the world, is not the majority opinion. you can see it in polling as well. there is certainly a segment of the republican base who'd like the idea of america first, but they also want an america first that is strong, america first that says we want to make sure that the bad guys aren't doing bad things. so this idea that the republican conference is going to be driven by the voices of a handful is extreme. >> those extremes are the loudest, they are the ones defining what the republican party is for mainstream americans. >> they have the largest megaphones. this is a small fraction of the house republican caucus. we're not talking about
6:07 am
republicans in the senate. we are talking about house republicans. so i think, as people write their stories and the analysis comes, that has to factor in. i always go back to the question of, what do the voters say? it is the voters who are dictating what is happening. it will note these folks with the largest megaphones are people who are fiercely loyal to former president trump. >> let's give kevin mccarthy credit for saying the right thing. but having said that, if he really cared about u.s. national security, he wouldn't be holding the debt ceiling hostage, because the threat of blowing up the debt ceiling, of the u.s. defaulting on its credit, is a much bigger national security threat than we face from
6:08 am
anywhere else right now. it's kevin mccarthy who's the threat. >> republicans would say we passed a bill. democrats are just sitting in the senate and saying we're not going to do anything. clean bill or nothing. kevin mccarthy's made his move. he surprised quite a few people by saying this and then having them pass an extension of the debt ceiling. what does the democratic senate do now? >> the problem with the bill that passed the house is it's not a realistic bill. i'll just give you one example. in the veterans affairs committee we passed a bill for toxic exposure treatment for our veterans. this bill will limit so much in the va that that will no longer be available to our veterans. we need to get people some common sense together and make sure we don't default on our
6:09 am
debt. then, whether through the committee process or some other process, get people in the room that will address our debt, because that is a problem. but you don't do that by defaulting on our debt and pulling the full faith and credit of this country at risk, raising costs for families, doing away with retirement accounts. >> you're exactly right. we can't do that. again, the republican house passed a bill. when does the democratic senate pass a bill? >> what i hope happens is the presidents and leaders of both houses use common sense to come forth with a proposal that, number one, increases the debt ceiling so we don't default, and lays out a plan to get the deficit and debt under control and gather the information necessary to do this in a way where it doesn't shut down our economy, where it really doesn't
6:10 am
basically destroy the country from a national security standpoint, as was already pointed out, and moves the country forward. to do it this way, i just think it's, number one, totally wrong, because it destroys our economy. number two, it's about headlines. let's do something that's practical, that has common sense that actually gets us where we need to go. >> how, though? there are seven days to work on it. how can you do that in seven days? >> not to keep repeating myself, but mccarthy's house passed a bill. shouldn't the democratic senate pass a bill and then you do what leaders in the house and senate have done for centuries, get together and figure it out? >> this is a better question for leadership. what i would do if i was in leadership is i would pass a bill that allows us to pay our bills. hopefully the house will do something with it.
6:11 am
i'm not sure they will. then figure out a way to address the deficit and debt over the long haul. >> everybody wants the off ramp and to be able to say they got a victory on this. obviously for mccarthy to get almost everybody on board, something that looked very difficult for him to be able to do earlier this year, was a big win. it does also suggest that even those loud voices on the republican side do not want to see this default, are willing to go to a place where they can declare victory. >> we've all been through this a lot. what happens at the end of the day is, there may be five, six, seven, eight maga extremists saying default, default, default. we're not going to do this. at the end of the day, those republicans that won in biden districts are going to be a lot
6:12 am
of people on wall street saying, come on, what are you doing? don't follow mtg. get this done. >> if that is the case there is a mechanism in the 118th congress rules package where it's more than five republicans in those districts. i think it's 18 members. they can get together. we just need five to get together with the democrats within the house of congress and they can bypass this whole ker fluffle that is going on and put a clean bill on the floor. it was my understanding there was not an appetite on that for republicans. >> not a clean bill. there's going to have to be a negotiation. >> why have we not asked the question why are members of congress trying to fiddle with the full faith and credit of the united states government? >> that's exactly the right
6:13 am
question. the 14th amendment of the constitution of the united states says you can't do this. why are we accepting negotiations over something which shouldn't and can't be negotiated? >> it is all the time, though, isn't it? this is not the first time it's happened in washington, d.c. >> no. but we often go to the brink over the budget, not the full faith and credit of the united states government. >> we all watched the show to elect the speaker of the house three months ago. what did mccarthy promise? >> exactly. >> that adds another side-bar to this that makes it more difficult and changes the landscape. we have done this before. you're right, joe. i'm very concerned there's enough people out there that want to see this default happen
6:14 am
on our debt that it, in fact, may happen. it will change this country in a way we're not going to like at all. >> the biden administration announced they're going to send 1500 troops to the border. republicans, shocked, stunned and deeply saddened despite them saying this when donald trump did the same damn thing. >> i think it's ridiculous theater. it will not change the outcome. it is political theater. it doesn't change the dynamic. >> the answer is not 1500 active duty service members. they didn't join the military to go to the border to push paper and change diapers. >> sending troops to the border can have an enormous positive effect. under joe biden, the 1500 troops he's sending will accomplish nothing to secure the border. >> did you feel the same about it being theater when trump sent troops to the border in 2018?
6:15 am
>> i feel that donald trump did the best job in my political lifetime. when donald trump did something, it worked. everything he did, as ted suggested, worked. >> oh my god. >> john mccain just rolled over again in his grave. that is so sad, because they were the ones all saying this was the most important thing in the world in 2018 when donald trump did it. by the way, we could list the things that donald trump did that were terrible that made lindsey graham go to the house floor and say, i am done, i am off this train, i am finished. then he was chased by three people and a hounddog at reagan airport and he got back on the trump train. >> is this a place for the military to be? no, it isn't. the truth is to get us to a
6:16 am
point where we can get the homeland security customs and border protection to protect our border with enough manpower. >> what do they do to clean it up down there? i support, like most americans, like ronald reagan, i want immigration numbers to go up. i want it to be legal immigration and it needs to be orderly. that's a humanitarian crisis. it's only going to get worse if the biden administration doesn't get real on this soon. >> the biden administration needs to make sure the border is secure. congress needs to step up and pass a long pathway to citizenship for folks coming to this country. this is so politicized right now. back in 2013 there was a bipartisan effort to pass an immigration program that works for this country. you can't even bring it up
6:17 am
anymore. this country is made of immigrants unless you're native american. i listened to a speech reagan gave on his last day in office. he said, what made this country great is immigration. now we can't even talk about it on the floors of the respective houses. >> when trump talked about sending troops, he talked about sending hundreds of thousands of troops to the border. he asked if they could shoot immigrants. he proposed a mote at the southern border filled with alligators. his approach was insane. meanwhile, apropos of what the senator is saying, i just saw yesterday in florida they're in the midst of passing a law that says that daca lawyers can't
6:18 am
practice in florida, which is obscene. >> how's the reelection going? >> things are going fine. it's a marathon, not a sprint. we've got a long ways to run in this body. >> you're a sprinter. thank you, senator. we're going to let you go. a couple of other items this morning. a new york judge has dismissed a lawsuit filed by trump against the "new york times," throwing out the case against the paper and three of its reporters citing first amendment protections. in 2021, trump sued the times and his niece mary over a 2018 pulitzer prize winning series about the then-president's undisclosed finances. according to trump's lawyers, the group engaged in a plot to obtain confidential records which they exploited for their
6:19 am
own benefit. trump was ordered to pay all legal bills for the times. the case against his niece is still pending. the times called it an important precedent, reaffirming press protections. a lawyer for president trump did not immediately respond to request for comment. meanwhile, lawyers for donald trump will not present any witnesses in the civil rape trial against him. the defense originally had an expert lined up to try and rebut e. jean carroll's allegation that trump raped her at a department store three decades ago, but now they are unable to testify due to health issues. the only other witness the defense had was trump himself, but the former president's lawyer told the judge on tuesday that he will not take the stand. still, jurors have been able to hear from trump.
6:20 am
carroll's attorney played part of his deposition yesterday. in it, trump denies carroll's allegations saying, quote, it's the most ridiculous, disgusting story. he said the store was very busy and shoppers and employees would have heard the commotion if it did happen. jurors are expected to hear more of his deposition when the trial resumes later today. >> amy, this just keeps coming, i mean, case after case after case. the georgia case seems to be the one that most americans are focused on. >> that's right. >> i've been hearing two things from my friends and relatives, people i've grown up with who have always been in for trump, so much so that we can't talk about politics, even when he
6:21 am
accused me of murder 12 times. >> i just can't get over that. >> they are all in. none of them are anymore. yet, i see poll after poll that says, oh, trump's stronger than ever. i'm telling you, the sense of exhaustion from republicans that would look me in the face and say, accused me of murder, i'm voting for him anyway, they're exhausted. >> that's the question. who's appealing to that exhausted group? >> right. >> early on it was ron desantis is going to be the one, because he has all of the elements. >> not so much. >> but right now he's had a rough patch and he also hasn't made his case yet. it's all been going through either his super pac putting ads up or media reports, which haven't been great. >> we heard low energy ron out of britain. >> that's right. donors are who are upset, they always call the press first and
6:22 am
wring their hands, oh, he can't win. he has to make his case. we're going to see in mid may how that goes. is it received well by republican voters. yeah. i think there's 35% of the electorate that's not going anywhere. maybe it's 30% who will not vote for anybody but donald trump. >> on the democratic side, bobby kennedy jr. at 19%, hasn't really gotten that much out there. i'm starting to hear more and more talk about him. are we going to have a challenge here? >> i'm trying not to laugh, joe. >> can i stop you for a second? >> yes. >> do you know how many people said the same thing about donald trump in 2015 on this show? the same exact thing. >> yes, because there was going to be a republican primary.
6:23 am
i really think the mealy-mouthed democrats, as i like to call them, and some of my progressive friends who would like to live in a fantasy land need to come back to reality. the sitting president of the united states is a democrat, a democrat that would like to run for reelection, so much so he has declared a reelection campaign. the democratic national committee will not facilitate a primary process. there will be no debate stage for robert kennedy. >> there will be no debate. >> the democratic national committee administers the debates. they're not going to set up a primary process for debates for someone to challenge the head of the democratic party. >> a lot of democrats concerned about joe biden? they may not be saying it in front of the television camera. they're all like, are we going to make it through -- is this
6:24 am
what democrats do best? as obama team said, they're bed-wetting democrats. >> we do fret things through a bit. the reality is joe biden is going to be the candidate, joe biden has a great record to run on and joe biden's going to be running against somebody terrible. i don't know whether it's donald trump or ron desantis or mike pence. >> everyone laughed when trump went down that escalator and it is not over with trump. >> that's true. but as far as bobby kennedy goes, he's not going to have 18% by the time a primary rolls around. he's the steve bannon candidate on the democratic ticket. >> why? >> because steve bannon has backed his candidacy. >> people forget there is a very
6:25 am
technical process when it comes to getting on a ballot. so, is steve bannon bankrolling bobby kennedy's ballot access? we don't know, but i would venture to say not. amy has the data. i'm a super subscriber. i would just say it would be a mistake for democrats not to invest early in this race, because it is not a foregone conclusion that joe biden is winning reelection. there are questions with young voters, black voters, latino voters. >> they're telling me i've got to go. i have to ask you one final question. i think maybe i'm walking around with a false sense of security about the future of american democracy, because i don't think donald trump can win the atlanta
6:26 am
suburbs. i don't think he can win the philly suburbs. i don't think he can even win in wisconsin anymore. i think the toxic mix of january 6th, the dobbs decision, all of these things make him unelectable in those areas, therefore, unelectable in georgia. >> there is a ceiling to donald trump support, no doubt about that. the question is whether the base that needs to come out and vote for joe biden is enthusiastic enough to do that. >> are they? >> they have been in 2018, 2020, 2022. this is the first election now where democrats are coming to the table saying, i know you don't necessarily love our nominee, you're not that excited about it, but you have to come and do it because democracy is at stake. they've been showing up, but they have to be given more than just this is the least worst option. >> you're dealing with a
6:27 am
candidate with fascist tendencies. all bets are off, because they don't play by the rules. we've seen what's happened so far. >> the bumper sticker could be, vote against the fascist, it's important. >> thank you all so much. >> symone weekends at 4:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. when we come back, the shooter in atlanta yesterday is now in police custody. is now in police custody. eek is your chance to try any subway footlong for free. like the subway series menu. just buy any footlong in the app, and get one free. everyone loves free stuff chuck. can we get peyton a footlong? get it before it's gone. on the subway app. from prom dresses get it to workouts gone. and new adventures you hope the more you give
6:28 am
the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. joe biden grew up middle class. and he gets that middle-class life is too expensive. that's why he passed the inflation reduction act. it lowers prescription costs by letting medicare negotiate with drug companies. it lowers energy bills by investing in american-made clean energy. and it's fully paid for by making big corporations pay the taxes they owe. the inflation reduction act is making middle class life more affordable. because joe biden gets it. and he's getting it done. - representative! - sorry, i didn't get that. - oh buddy! you need a hug. you also need consumer cellular. get the exact same coverage as the nation's leading carriers
6:29 am
and 100% us based customer support. starting at $20. consumer cellular. i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... ...is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks.
6:30 am
i didn't have to change my treatment. i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. as a business owner, your bottom line ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie is always top of mind. so start saving by switching to the mobile service designed for small business: comcast business mobile. flexible data plans mean you can get unlimited data or pay by the gig. all on the most reliable 5g network, with no line activation fees or term contracts... saving you up to 75% a year. and it's only available to comcast business internet customers. so boost your bottom line by switching today. comcast business. powering possibilities™.
6:31 am
and i feel this this afternoon in a very real sense. i feel it in my bones, because my own two children were on
6:32 am
lockdown this afternoon. i have two small children, and their schools were on lockdown responding to this tragedy. they're there, i'm here. i'm hoping and praying they are safe. but the truth is, none of us is safe. >> senator raphael warnock of georgia speaking after yesterday's mass shooting in atlanta. officers were able to find and arrest the suspect, deon patterson after an 8 hour long manhunt. they're working to determine what led him to shoot five neem people in a hospital waiting room. also with us, contributing editor for the atlantic norm orn
6:33 am
ornstein. he has written extensively about mental illness and how to fix a broken mental health system. >> norm, let me start with you. we've had the discussion before about you losing your son after a ten-year battle with mental health issues. i talk to so many parents going through the same thing. you know, all of us parents say there but by the grace of god go i, because the level of depression, anxiety, loneliness, suicides just exploding among our youngest americans. let's talk about that first. then i want you to talk about the miami program. >> sure. we're going to see things get a whole lot worse, covid, the lockdowns for kids are going to create even bigger problems.
6:34 am
we'll also see more serious mental illness emerging. we have a broken system. there isn't a family in america that hasn't been touched by this and some more deeply, like my family. just imagine what it's like if you are a person of color and you've got to worry not just about your kids being shot on the street, but what happens if you have a mental illness, you call for help and that help may end up resulting in tragedy. we have to make some changes from top to bottom. we have to change a model where we basically put people with serious mental illness in prison instead of getting them help. or for people like my son, who had a brain disease where he didn't have any insight into his illness, they go untreated. many of the problems we have, including the violence, is untreated mental illness. >> it's maddening to me when you
6:35 am
have people taking the most extreme positions on guns talking, oh, well this is about mental illness, but they won't fund it. you talk about people of color who have problem getting the help they need. you could say the same thing. it's heartbreaking. in rural america, so much of rural america also they don't have access to mental health systems they need access to. there are just parents all across america just begging for help. >> i could go on a rant about guns, but of course, mental illness is a problem globally. every other country has similar levels to what we have. they don't have the gun violence. so it's not about mental illness. more people with serious mental illness are victims of violence than they are perpetrators. we have a system where we don't have beds, we don't have trained
6:36 am
personnel. if a police officer who's been trained tries to take somebody in crisis to find a place to get treatment, you could go to an emergency room, where you'll maybe sit there languishing for hours, or you go to jail. >> we have a lot of friends in the mental health services, and there are kids that are suicidal. they'll call to get them inpatient help. they'll say we have nothing for a week. they will go sit in an emergency room, get in a room and maybe they're there for days. it's a nightmare. >> one of the sad things about it is, we're throwing a lot of money in the wrong places. we can get to miami in a little bit, but i will just say that in miami there are 2400 people with significant mental illness who are in prisons. it's costing miami-dade county
6:37 am
$232 million a year, almost $100,000 a person. if you actually provided treatment for these people, it would cost a tiny fraction of that. we can save lives and save money. that's what this remarkable judge steve lifeman in miami-dade county has done. >> tell us about the model. another factor we know contributes to this problem is when you're dealing with health, because one of the reasons people get put in prison is they've also in the process of having an episode or whatever it is, they've committed a crime or people don't know what to do with them. they get thrown in prison. okay, fine. but when you're dealing with mental health, often you're dealing with pharmaceuticals and trying to treat the mental illness.
6:38 am
it can take months to see if a medication can help someone get back to stability. >> we're out of the dark ages when it comes to treatments. but you're absolutely right. if you have somebody who's willing to get treatment, you need to take time to find the right mix of medications. when people are in jail, if they've been on medications, they deny them, they put them in solitary confinement, which is the worst thing you can do. we have poorly paid guards who don't know what they're doing and often react with violence. it's the worst thing you can do to people. watching what happened with this poor person inspect subway car jordan neely in new york, chokehold and murder basically. we don't treat people as people. that's something that they're doing in miami. it's something we're trying to spread around the country. it's working through the
6:39 am
criminal justice system. my son was not deeply involved with that. but i've taken on this task because i don't want every families to have to go through what we went through, and so many do. if you can find ways to save lives and money and do it by training police the right way and training others, including in schools. when kids act out, they shouldn't be thrown to the ground by some security person or put in handcuffs. we have to find better ways to do this, and those ways exist. if we did a documentary, sch we talked about when i was on a while back called "the definition of insanity" which lays out what the program is. what they doing in mine and they're opening up a facility where you can take in people alter different level of crisis. they have a dental clinic, an
6:40 am
eye clinic and can give them a place to stay where they can get stabilized and train them and they can come productive citizens. the pain we went through as a family was nothing compared to what my son went through, because he had a brain disease that he did not cause. >> thank you, norm, for being with us. this month is mental health awareness month. we need to focus on this throughout the year. thank you for being a big part of that. senator, let's continue the conversation and talk about before we get to guns and the tragedy that happened in atlanta, let's talk about mental health. what should washington do? because we're just not going enough, are we? >> we're not. it's something that i've seen up close, first of all, as a pastor. i can't tell you how many times i've sat with families, i've
6:41 am
talked to my own members who needed care. i just want to thank norm for transforming his pain into power and speaking to this issue in a way that so many people need to. last summer, we did pass the first gun reform bill in 30 years. it had significant provisions there for mental health. so we did pass a bill, which is allowing us to do more than we've done in the past. but we've got a lot more we need to do. >> let's talk about yesterday in atlanta. unfortunately, it's becoming the norm. it's not the exception. it's the rule. every day it's either texas or georgia. it's insanity. >> we have had a mass shooting in this country virtually every day this year.
6:42 am
i'm afraid we're becoming numb to it. i'm afraid we are behaving as if this is normal. this is not normal. to live in a country where no one is safe no matter where they are. >> it's also a choice. on this issue, other than those republicans that worked with you in the senate, this is a choice that republican legislators have made. we've seen gun violence explode even since sandy hook. >> we have. look, as divided as the country is, 87% of americans, according to a fox news poll, believe that we ought to have universal background checks. not only have we not seen a bill move forward on that issue, i
6:43 am
can tell you that over the last few weeks, there was virtually no conversation even happening about this in the building where i work. ironically, yesterday i was in chuck schumer's office working with him to try to plan and talk about a way forward, how can we get something done on this issue. literally an hour after that meeting where i'd been pushing my colleagues that we've got to respond. the conversation is happening out there. it has to happen in the congress. i got word about this shooting in my own back yard, in my own hometown and my own two precious children were on lockdown in their schools in response to this. >> you seem to be a man who has led people through providing them with hope. the question here is, the congress has shut down. they don't seem to be doing anything on it. most americans will say what are we going to do, where do we go
6:44 am
with this, how can we produce change? can this be made a central issue in the upcoming presidential campaign? as you say, 87% of american people support reasonable controls. can this be central? or are we just going to keep shrugging it off? >> we have to stand up. this is a defining moment. as i said yesterday, none of us is safe. it doesn't matter where we are, bars, restaurants, in our houses of worship. the good news is that there is growing consensus in the country that we have to do something. yet, there's a disconnect between what the people want and what they're getting out of their government. so we have to stand up in this moment. i have to say as a pastor that i think we've got to stand up to this culture in which we have in
6:45 am
effect turned guns into a kind of god. we regularly sacrifice our children at the altar of this god. it cannot stand. i think there is a path to getting something done, and i'm going to keep working on it. >> every time there's a mass shooting and a big story, it becomes politicized and more people buy guns. >> we're told this is the cost for freedom. i don't think this is the cost of freedom. this is the kind of blind obstinance and demagoguery. >> you worry about getting shot every day. >> as a pastor, as somebody who deals with these issues, it's really perverse, for example, to the degree the meaning of
6:46 am
christmas has been perverted by this. look how many members of congress send out christmas cards brandishing guns. it's like they worship the guns. >> this is a moral problem. it's also a problem with our democracy. any time you can have this kind of consensus in the country that we have to do something -- and there are divisions, to be sure. we don't agree on everything on the left and right. but the fact there's no movement suggests there's something broken in the democracy itself. it's why we need voices to continue to stand up at the grassroots level to make noise on the outside even as there are those of us trying to get something done on the inside. >> talking about the fox news poll, i just want the read this again. 87% of americans support background checks, 81% support
6:47 am
enforcing existing gun laws, 81% want the age to go up to 21 for all gun purchases, 80% want mental health checks, 80% support red flag laws and 77% support a 30-day waiting period. even a majority of americans support the ban of military-style weapons. so we won't get there. but what about starting with something that 9 out of 10 americans want? why can't we get at least universal background checks on all gun purchases? >> it's hard to get a bill introduced if no one is even talking about it. over the last few weeks when we saw what happened in tennessee, those brave legislators stood up and they were literally expelled from the legislature. it's not simply that they lost their seats. thankfully, the people sent them
6:48 am
back. but the voters were robbed of their voice. this is a problem with our democracy. we have to stand up and make sure that the people can get their voice back. i can tell you there was no conversation even happening in the congress. i began to push my colleagues on this a couple weeks ago. i've had conversations with the leadership. i'm hopeful that building on the work that chris murphy on our side of the aisle and others did on the other side of the aisle to get, you know, an important bill passed last summer, that we can build on that. that bill had a lot of provisions for mental health care. it seems to me that universal background checks might be the next logical step. >> senator raphael warnock, thank you so much for coming to
6:49 am
the show this morning. the man accused of killing five of his neighbors in texas had help evading authorities and was trying to escape to mexico before he was arrested on tuesday, that's according to prosecutors. the district attorney says francisco ropesa's wife helped him until he was eventually caught. investigators also believe she talked to oropesa's cousins in the area asking for help to get him out of the country, but the cousins refused. at least one other person has been arrested accused of helping oropesa as well. a tip led authorities to a house in cut and shoot texas where the suspect was found hiding under some laundry in a closet.
6:50 am
the d.a. says his wife was also at the home when he was taken into custody. he was charged with five counts of first degree murder. the bond for those charges totals more than $7 million. david, thank you very much for being on the show. >> what are you writing about? >> i wrote about kevin mccarthy and how he's posing a national security threat. i wrote how the biden administration has really engineered a kind of sea change in american economic policy, which i think is a reversal on 40 years of reagan nommics. the country. "morning joe" is coming right back. intense burning sensation or an unbearable itch. this painful, blistering rash
6:51 am
can disrupt your life for weeks. it could make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older, ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles. first, there's an idea and you do something about it for the first time with godaddy. then before you know it, (it is a life changer...) you make your first sale. small business first. never stopped coming. (we did it!) and you have a partner that always puts you first way. (no way!) start today at godaddy.com. ♪ with wet amd, sometimes i worry my world is getting smaller because of my sight. but now, i can open up my world with vabysmo. vabysmo is the first fda-approved treatment for people with wet amd that improves vision and delivers a chance for up to 4 months between treatments.
6:52 am
which means doing more of what i love. ♪ vabysmo is the only treatment designed to block 2 causes of wet amd. vabysmo is an eye injection. don't take it if you have an infection or active swelling in or around your eye, or are allergic to it or any of its ingredients. treatments like vabysmo can cause eye infection or retinal detachment. vabysmo may cause a temporary increase in eye pressure after receiving the injection. although uncommon, there is a potential risk of heart attack or stroke associated with blood clots. open up your world! a chance for up to 4 months between treatments with vabysmo. ask your doctor. - elites. now that we've made travel so expensive, we have this hotel to our...selves..? - how'd you get here? - kayak! they compared hundreds of travel sites to find a great deal on my flight, car, and hotel. - kayak. search one and done. so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us.
6:53 am
but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. our customers don't do what they do for likes or followers. their path isn't for the casually curious. and that's what makes it matter the most when they find it. the exact thing that can change the world. some say it's what they were born to do... it's what they live to do... trinet serves small and medium sized businesses... so they can do more of what matters. benefits. payroll. compliance. trinet. people matter.
6:54 am
i'm your overly competitive brother. check. psych! and i'm about to steal this game from you just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie. real mature. i'm not going to talk, mika. >> okay. well, don't talk them. >> your voice is quite loud. >> it's a long shot. >> this is the finale of the show. >> what are you doing now? >> we're taking a look at some of the morning papers. the altoona mirror has a front page feature on pennsylvania
6:55 am
lawmakers advancing a bill on railroad safety. the legislation is in direct response to the norfolk southern train that derailed along the ohio, pennsylvania border in february spilling toxic chemicals. under the measure, freight trains would be required to have a two-person crew. it would also allow union representatives to monitor safety practices and create a state certification program for detector systems. the ithaca journal reports new york is capping insulin prices for uninsured residents for the next five years, insulin will only cost $35. officials say about 464,000 residents rely on the medication every day and 1 million people are uninsured. and finally, in new jersey, the courier news has a front page feature on the state's hospital grades. a new report gave almost 52% of medical centers an a grade. no hospitals received a d or an
6:56 am
f. new jersey now leads the country with the most hospitals with the top score. this is a big change from the height of the pandemic when most medical centers received a low grade. and they were having a tough time with staffing. >> you do that very well. >> thank you. >> the show is over, and we're going to go now. we should give ana a few seconds back since we go over. you talk too much, so let's reimburse, okay? that does it for us this morning. >> pay it forward. >> yes, ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break that you take. >> thank you for your patience. >> bye, everyone. >> bye. so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond.
6:57 am
6:58 am
the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. ♪ ♪ - why are these so bad? - if i would've used kayak to book our car, we could have saved on our trip instead of during our trip. ughh - kayak. search one and done.
6:59 am
7:00 am
hello, and thank you for joining us. it is 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reporting live from new york, and we are following a lot of news this morning, including a manhunt in atlanta ending in the capture of a 24-year-old suspect who police say shot five women killing one in a georgia medical facility. why he was there and the biggest questions investigators are trying to answer right now. plus, protests in new york city following the death of a man put in a chokehold on a city subway. the case now being ruled a homicide. the vid