hello, and thank you for joining us. it is 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reporting live from new york, and we are following a lot of news this morning, including a manhunt in atlanta ending in the capture of a 24-year-old suspect who police say shot five women killing one in a georgia medical facility. why he was there and the biggest questions investigators are trying to answer right now. plus, protests in new york city following the death of a man put in a chokehold on a city subway. the case now being ruled a homicide. the video at the center of the

investigation. also this morning, we are on the ground following a growing humanitarian crisis on the southern border. as the secretary of homeland security heads to the border in anticipation of a mass influx of migrants. border towns looking for answers, migrants looking for help. >> are you desperate? >> i'm very desperate she tells us. i don't have anything to eat. >> we have people sleeping on our streets. this isn't sustainable. it's not normal. please help us, and enough with the politics of it. and new controversy with justice clarence thomas. first it was reporting about luxury trips and yachts and a real estate deal, and now propublica has new reporting about a billionaire gop donor paying private school tuition for a thomas relative. i'll talk to the reporter behind that story, how that donor is responding and the larger ethical questions it's raising.

but we begin with the suspect in a georgia mass shooting in custody this morning as we learn more about the investigation and the victims of this latest senseless tragedy. joining us now from atlanta is nbc news correspondent morgan chesky, also with us is cedric alexander who previously served as the director of public safety in dekalb county, georgia. he's currently the community safety commissioner in minneapolis. morgan, this morning we are learning more about the victims as well as the suspect and why he was there at that clinic. what more are you learning? >> reporter: yeah, ana, we've learned quite a bit over the last 24 hours. we do know this suspect police have identified as 24-year-old deion patterson is currently here inside fulton county jail where he was booked in late last night following this manhunt that lasted the better part of the day wednesday and of course began with that horrific shooting that took place inside an atlanta area medical center where we're told that patterson walked to the 11th floor waiting

room with his mother for some sort of unknown medical appointment before pulling out a hand gun and opening fire shooting five women, fatally wounding one of them before fleeing that scene. authorities were very clear to credit technology in helping them track down the gunman's whereabouts saying that a license plate recognition technology tracked a stolen truck to nearby cobb county, and that is where undercover officer identified him walking into a building and allowed them to move in and take him into custody without incident. you mentioned that the one woman who was killed here, ana, she's been identified as 39-year-old amy st. pierre. she was a cdc employee at that medical center. we do know that there are four other victims recovering at nearby hospitals. we anticipate an update on their concerns later today, and we also anticipate the arraignment for this 24-year-old gunman here in about an hour or so or we'll

hear the official charges he now faces. ana. >> cedric, if the reporting is true that he was suffering from mental health issues, he was there with his mother, then what can be done here? what can police do to stop something like this when there's also a gun involved? >> well, you know, it's so much limitations to what police is going to be able to do in these types of circumstances, and the reason being very simply is this, ana, is the accessibility and availability of guns in this country. until our federal and state governments decides to do something, change, enact some laws, we're going to continue to have these issues, and it doesn't really matter whether the person has a mental health condition or not. the fact of the matter is this is that there are too many guns and weapons on our streets across this entire country, and the accessibility of them is just enormous. that is the issue. oftentimes we hear people say, well, someone has a mental health issue, we're going to

keep guns away from them. how you going to do that when you have such availability of guns that are out there, that are stolen that you can get virtually anywhere and everywhere. that's the issue. we need government particularly at the federal level to step in and make some real changes here. >> largely at the federal level lawmakers have said leave this to the states. that's one of the reasons why there hasn't been more gun safety legislation in recent years, and so you look at the state of georgia, which has some of the weakest gun laws in the country according to every town for gun safety. giffords gives georgia an f. the state allows conceal carry without a permit. there's no red flag law. do you think those types of laws could make a difference here? >> i certainly believe that they can. we do have states, particularly many of these southern states that have these lax gun laws, and even some of our midwest states if you will. but the fact of the matter is

that the availability of these weapons, states not taking responsibility to do better to protect their citizens is a problem, and that is going to continue to be a problem where the person has a mental health condition or not. so that is what really has to be addressed here, and we're just tap dancing around this. but like those numbers you just posted there and those laws, that's just the state of florida. there's other states across this country that have the same kind of lax gun laws, and it's hurting americans every day in this country. >> we are showing what the situation is there in georgia. raphael warnock's two children were among those on lockdown in atlanta. and he took to the senate floor. take a listen to this. >> my own two children were on lockdown this afternoon.

i have two small children, and their schools were on lockdown responding to this tragedy. they're there. i'm here hoping and praying that they are safe, but the truth is none of us is safe. >> listen, this country has had at least 192 mass shootings this year according to the gun violence archive. as a public safety officer, how do you make sense of this? you've been doing this a long time. you've been involved in law enforcement for decades. how do you make sense of it happening over and over and over again? >> well, that's the insanity of it, ana, you can't make sense of it. we know exactly what to do in this country, but do we have the will to do it? our states and our froflt know exactly what to do, and you know, we all share the sentiment

of senator warnock. it all touches us some type of way, if it's not our children, it's someone else's children. we're continually seeing these shootings taking place virtually every day, certainly every week in this country, and until there is some strong legislation, some change in laws, we're going to continue to see this, and so we don't need to tap dance around it any longer. we need to face it and do something about it, and american people are tired of this. but we all -- i mean, we can't give up. this is horrific. this just doesn't make sense in a civilized society. >> right, no. >> in a community, a society as sophisticated as this country. >> cedric alexander i really appreciate your perspective. thank you for joining us. >> thank you for having me. this morning outrage and protest in new york. a man died after a fellow subway rider put him in a chokehold following an altercation on a train. let's get right to nbc news correspondent stephanie gosk

following this story. stephanie, walk us through what happened here. >> sure. ana, you know, all of this happened on monday, and so it's been a couple days since the incident, but this video surfaced of the event, and that has brought increased scrutiny on what happened in that subway car. jordan neely's death was ruled a homicide by the medical examiner, and now the big question is will there be charges, criminal charges, and the investigation is ongoing. i'm going to show you that video, but i have to warn you, it is disturbing. this morning there is growing outrage and questions surrounding the death of a man on a new york city subway. this video obtained by nbc new york shows three subway riders subduing the 30-year-old man and one putting him in a chokehold. he later goes limp. the medical examiner ruled the death a homicide and says the cause was, quote, compression of neck, chokehold. the district attorney identified the man as jordan neely. a witness says that neely got on the subway and began, quote, a

somewhat aggressive speech saying he was hungry, he was thirsty, that he didn't care about anything. he didn't care about going to jail. he didn't care that he gets a big life sentence. police telling nbc news, quote, the 30-year-old male was ingauge enengaged in a dispute. during a struggle, the 30-year-old male lost consciousness. manhattan borough president mark levine writing that neely was a subway entertainer who performed dance routines in costume as michael jackson. ♪♪ levine adding, he always made people smile. our broken mental health system failed him. he deserved help, not to die in a chokehold on the floor of the subway. police say the 24-year-old rider who put neely into the chokehold was taken into custody for questioning and later released. he has not been publicly identified. protesters gathered overnight to call for more action. >> what do we want?

>> justice! >> no charges have been filed, but the manhattan district attorney's office said it is under investigation and is a solemn and serious matter. the d.a.'s office is asking any witnesses to come forward. they say they've put on senior prosecutors to look into whether or not there are charges. it's also important to note, ana that, when a death is ruled a homicide, that doesn't necessarily mean there was a crime committed. what they're going to be looking at specifically is whether or not this was done in self-defense. ana. >> that's unfortunate, it's disturbing and perhaps more than that. thank you so much, stephanie gosk, for that reporting. when we're back in just 60 seconds, new propublica reporting involving justice clarence thomas, a gop billionaire donor and tuition for a private school in georgia. the reporter behind this story joins us next. plus, we are live in mexico at a migrant camp near the border. thousands have the u.s. in their sights as a covid era border policy is set to end.

we'll dive into the deepening humanitarian crisis. also, former president trump's legal team will not present defense witnesses in the civil rape and defamation case brought by e. jean carroll, why? and what it could mean for the case. our legal experts weigh in when "ana cabrera reports" is back in just one minute. " is back in just one minute. work. so you can do more than connect your business, you can make it even smarter. now ports can know where every piece of cargo is. and where it's going. (dock worker) right on time. (vo) robots can predict breakdowns and order their own replacement parts. (foreman) nice work. (vo) and retailers can get ahead of the fashion trend of the day with a new line tomorrow. with a verizon private 5g network, you can get more agility and security. giving you more control of your business. we call this enterprise intelligence. from the network america relies on. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? >> vo: for us, driving around is the only way we can get our baby to sleep, so when our windshield cracked, we needed it fixed right. we went to safelite.com.

there's no one else we'd trust. their experts replaced our windshield, and recalibrated our car's advanced safety system. they focus on our safety... so we can focus on this little guy. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ new bomb shell reporting this morning from propublica about justice clarence thomas and a billionaire gop donor. propublica's investigation reveals that billionaire harlan crow paid tuition at two private schools for thomas's grand nephew who he had been raising as a son. now, propublica cites both a bank statement for one of the schools and a former administrator. the exact amount crow paid is unclear, but if he paid for all four years of high school, the price tag could have exceeded $150,000 according to

propublica. nbc news has not yet confirmed this reporting. justice thomas declined comment to propublica and hasn't responded to nbc news. but a representative of crow did respond with a similar statement saying in part, quote, it's disappointing that those with partisan political interests would try to turn helping at risk youth with tuition assistance into something nefarious or political. the statement goes on to say that crow and his wife have, quote, supported many young americans through scholarship and other programs at a variety of schools including his alma mater. this story is just the latest story from propublica to raise ethical questions about the ties between thomas and crow. previous reports have included luxury vacations and private yachts and real estate transactions. thomas maintains that he and crow are long-time friends and that there was no real wrongdoing. let's discuss with one of the reporters behind this investigation. joshua kaplan and barbara

mcquade is with us as well, a former u.s. attorney in the state of michigan and msnbc legal analyst. josh, tell us about thomas's relationship with this relative who received the tuition and why based on your reporting crow was involved here at all? >> so this is -- this is thomas's grand nephew, but, you know, i think that suggests -- that doesn't fully capture the level of closeness here. thomas was actually his legal guardian. he had taken legal custody of the child when he was 6 years old, and in thomas's own words, he raised him as a son, and so for high school thomas sent the child to private boarding school, and harlan crow secretly picked up the tab. and for context, i mean, we've previously reported that crow's unusual role helping fund the lives of thomas and his family including the private jet flights, the international yacht

vacations, actually paying him and his relatives money in an undisclosed real estate deal, and this adds a whole new dimension to that. >> and according to your reporting, this goes back to 2008, the tuition payments specifically, when this relative was in high school. your team as you mentioned has uncovered not just this but you've over the course of several weeks reported on private yachts, luxurious vacations, real estate transactions. i think the big question a lot of us are wondering is why? why was crow providing all of this? do you have any sense of that answer? >> well, we have what crow and thomas have said, which is that this is just a friendship. we are dear friends. we broke our first story about luxury travel, crow said that he's extended this sort of hospitality to his many other dear friends too, but i mean, i think it's really still a very

much a live question. thomas has not talked to us about the nature of their relationship. crow hasn't responded to our requests for an interview. he's just released these statements, and you know, why exactly these financial ties have so many tentacles is still pretty much unclear. >> and the other big piece of what makes this alarming or concerning maybe is the fact that clarence thomas just never disclosed any of this in his financial disclosures, and so barbara i want you to jump in here and get your reaction and thoughts on some of this reporting. propublica reports this, and i quote, thomas did not report the tuition payments from crow on his annual financial disclosures. several years earlier thomas disclosed a gift of 5,000 for martin's education from another friend. it's not clear why he reported that payment but not crow's. what do you think, barbara?

why report one but not the other? what does that indicate to you? >> this is a bright red flag. this is, along with all of the other episodes of receiving funds from harlan crow, the kind of conflict of interest that just cannot stand on our supreme court. it is very suspicious, i think, that he would report one and not the other. it seems that this is an effort to conceal the ties to harlan crow. it does not appear that there is any evidence that justice thomas made any decisions directly advancing the interests of harlan crow but that's not the point. this is a conflict of interest. this shows that justice thomas is owned by another person. these are the kinds of things that would completely bar someone from getting a security clearance in other branches of government because it would suggest that person is beholden to another. could be blackmailed by another, and owes another, and the idea that a sitting justice of the supreme court is taking this

kind of money from another person is just untenable. abe fortis resigned from the court over far less than this, and i think it's time that justice thomas do the same. >> there has just been this drip, drip, drip from josh and his team at propublica reporting on thomas. he's repeatedly been able to brush off these accusations. his fellow justices haven't taken any action to hold him to account, but when do you think that drip drip drip becomes a flood that the justice can no longer ignore? >> i'm already there. i was there last time. this one is just really the straw that breaks the camel's back. if you are chief justice john roberts, you have to have a conversation with justice thomas. he is ruining it for all of the rest of them. you know that phrase, this is why we can't have nice things. to the extent there was any pushback about an ethics code for supreme court justices, this is going to really give fuel to the argument that there absolutely must be a code of

conduct, and justice thomas has violated any ethical code that could exist. i think that members of congress are absolutely within their right to demand answers to questions, and if he continues to stone wall, if he continues to refuse to resign, i think there's potentially grounds for impeachment for this failure of disclosure. >> barbara mcquade, thank you. you'll be back with us in just a moment. joshua kaplan, thank you for sharing your reporting. we hope you'll come back as you continue to learn more and dig up more, really appreciate you and your team. up next here on ana cabrera reports, a new wave of attacks on ukraine in just the last 24 hours after moscow claimed without evidence that ukraine was behind an alleged attempt to assassinate russian president vladimir putin. get this, now the kremlin is also pointing fingers at the united states. plus, we're live at a migrant camp in mexico as thousands there wait for a u.s. border policy to end.

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we are back with breaking news. we have a verdict in the proud boys seditious conspiracy trial. let's get right to the courthouse, our justice reporter ryan reilly is outside that courthouse in washington, and still with us barbara mcquade, also joining us danny cevallos, ryan, what do we know about this verdict? >> reporter: we know there's at

least a partial verdict in this case. the jury had sent a note a couple of days ago asking what they could do and the judge instructed them that they could indeed return a partial verdict if necessary, if they are hung up on any counts. so that seems like what we might have a situation here is that, you know, this could be a full verdict or a partial verdict. given the jury's note before, we could be looking at potentially a partial verdict in this case. this case started back in december during jury selection, and opening arguments were in january. we're now in may. this has been a very long lasting trial stretched out over several months, and you know, jurors had a lot they had to look at here. i think one of the most complicated questions for the jurors to ask really had to do with enrique tarrio who's the top head of the proud boys, and you know, he wasn't there on january 6th. he was actually at a hotel in baltimore. i think that's something for people to really keep in mind here depending on how this verdict comes out. you know, it's a lot easier to settle those questions. people were actually on the

grounds of the capitol that day. for enrique tarrio arrested in connection with a second incident and was kicked out of d.c. by a judge, him being in baltimore might be more of a complicating factor. i think that is something we could expect that some jurors struggled with during the proceedings here, and we'll ultimately find out shortly at 10:30 when the jurors are expected to walk back into the room and deliver at least a partial verdict in this proud boys case hear. . >> we expect to hear what that verdict is in just a few minutes from now. ryan you mentioned a note that indicated perhaps what we might expect when this verdict or partial verdict is read. what did the note say? >> reporter: essentially it was a little bit complicated. they didn't come right out and say, hey, we're deadlocked here, what do we do, ask for an instruction. there's this thing that's referred to sort of as the

dynamite charge that a judge can come back and say really try this. this has been a long trial. basically try to push the jury to reach a conclusion on those outstanding counts. it wasn't quite to that level. the judge ultimately didn't give that sort of dynamite charge. what he did say is that essentially you can come -- you know, keep working on it, let me know if you're locked up, and you can send me a note if you're ultimately locked up on something here. that could spark further discussions in the jury here. it did seem there's at least one of these charges or one of these defendants that there was definitely a lot of tension within the jury and they were sort of getting hung up with. you know, they sent a number of notes in terms of some of the different evidence, what they were looking at. zachary real, the head of the proud boys from philadelphia, he was someone that they were particularly interested in. some of his videos that he filmed that day, and there was this late breaking thing in the trial where some of the online sleuths just before -- just when he was on the stand actually surfaced this video that prosecutors and the fbi had

missed that showed -- that appeared to show zachary real pointing a can of what appeared to be pepper spray at a line of officers. that's going to be another interesting thing to look at here. broadly speaking, if you want to look at long-term repercussions and implications, the enrique tarrio is going to be the main thing to look at here. that's really -- you know, as close as an analog as you could have to a donald trump sort of situation where it's somebody who is away from the capitol, not directly there, and there's, you know, the evidence about whether or not there was explicit instructions was a little bit mixed. if you wanted to read the tea leaves, certainly it's affair to say that jack smith's team is watching closely to see what happens with enrique tarrio here. >> the prosecutor saying in their closing arguments the proud boys wanted to be donald trump's army and that they were thirsting for violence and organizing for action. ryan, there are several counts and several defendants in this

case, of course seditious conspiracy is the most serious charge that carries up to 20 years behind bars if convicted. but even if we don't get a conviction or even a verdict, a unanimous verdict on all of these charges, can you remind us what the different charges are that we'll be listening to hear verdicts on? >> yeah, you know, the obstruction of an official proceeding charge has the same exposure, criminal exposure for a lot of the defendants, and i think that's been generally a lot easier of a charge for jurors to decide. remember, in that first oath keepers trial that we saw back in the fall, it was only, i think, two out of the defendants who were ultimately found guilty of seditious conspiracy. that would be kelly megs and stewart rhodes, so the jury wasn't able to reach a conclusion on that charge of seditious conspiracy. all the defendants were found guilty in some capacity and, you know, a lot of them had

significant criminal exposure here and we should see sentencing actually coming up in this case within the next few weeks here. so you know, the seditious conspiracy charge is a tougher charge to prove, but there's a lot else on -- a lot of charges that are following up. the problem, i think, for prosecutors, for enrique car tar owe, it's a little bit all or nothing because he wasn't another defendant using a stolen police shield, it's kind of an all or nothing scenario if the jury concludes that there's not enough evidence to suggest x. there is a lot of evidence that suggests that the proud boys were more worried about antifa and fighting with antifa in the lead up to this, and that's what a lot of the discussions were about. one of the defendants, joe bigs gave an interview that morning basically laying out what he thought was going to happen, and it was all about how they

thought once night fell they were going to be fighting people. that is what this was sort of concentrating on. a lot of the testimony that we saw, despite all this really sort of awful talk that we saw from the proud boys, a lot of the testimony indicated that this was more a spur of the moment sort of scenario at peace circle on january 6th than it was, you know, a predetermined plot. there was a message before from somebody saying, you know, about storming the capitol and that went to enrique tarrio, and tar owe sent a message back and said i just heard this essentially, you want to storm the capitol. that's something that prosecutors did have, but you know, this is a little bit of a developing situation here that we're going to find out very soon how the jurors ultimately came down. >> barbara mcquade, i'd like to get your thoughts as we await this verdict, just how significant will this moment be in the bigger picture when it comes to justice for what happened on the january 6th? >> i think it's a very

significant moment. you know, juries can do funny things. we asked jurors to do an awful lot. they have to parse through i think it's ten counts in this case, many of them charging multiple defendants. they have to prove that each and every element has been satisfied, and that can be a daunting task. and so legally, i think you could say whether it's a guilty or not guilty verdict, you know, there is a little bit of the whim of the jury that is at play here, but i think politically and historically it is very important to see the proud boys brought to justice as we have seen with the oath keepers. to me, based on what i have read, there is sufficient evidence to prove a conspiracy, seditious conspiracy. there is talk of 1776 and then after the attack, we did this. it seems quite clear to me that the conspiracy, which requires just proof to use force to oppose the authority of the united states was met here. for a jury to find it was not met i think would take some of the wind out of the sails of jack smith and the department of

justice in its effort to hold accountable all of those who used violence on january 6th. >> danny, do you agree that, one, if the seditious conspiracy charge is not something that they were able to agree upon, which again, we don't know. we are awaiting the verdict, and so we're just, you know, discussing the possibilities here at this point, if they don't get a conviction, the justice department, on that most serious charge, is this still a victory? is this still justice? >> symbolically you might say that an acquittal on the seditious conspiracy is a loss, but look, government plays to win, and that's the way they've crafted this indictment. they only really need one or two or three convictions. and then at sentencing, they can bring in what's called relevant conduct. it may surprise a lot of people that at sentencing, a defendant can be sentenced on acquitted conduct. in other words, a count that you may have won as a defendant and

gotten -- and beaten, gotten acquitted comes in at sentencing and is considered by the court in fashioning a sentence. like i said, the government plays to win, and they've done so with this indictment. if you look from count one all the way down to count ten, when you look at some of those lower down the list counts, they're things like destruction of government property. does that sound like a difficult case to make out for a january 6th defendant? now, admittedly each of these defendants did different things on those days leading up to and during the attack on the capitol, so they all have different fact scenarios, but what's critical here and the reason why the government will likely win as long as they get just one or maybe two convictions is because they're still going to be able to sentence significant periods of time. you don't need the seditious conspiracy to sentence these defendants to a considerable period of time in prison, so all in all, the government set itself up for a win. although, i would concede that

symbolically, spiritually, the seditious conspiracy charge is acquitted, that might not be a good look, but the reality is this is not a charge that's brought very often. we saw that the jury struggled with it. they sent out a note. it's hard to grasp. conspiracy law itself can be difficult to grasp. this kind of seditious conspiracy is even more so. >> let's go back to ryan reilly who is outside the courthouse again. this is a federal trial o we don't have cameras in the courtroom. i know you are getting realtime updates. you have new information. fill us in. >> reporter: that's right, judge kelly said this is indeed a partial verdict, so that means we're not going to learn every single count here what the jury concluded. what we could end up seeing is that we have some of these charges come back with either guilty or not guilty, and then the judge could potentially instruct them to go back and deliberate further on these outstanding charges. this all really depends upon how these charges come out, but you know, if we're reading the tea leaves here a little bit, i do

think enrique tarrio is the one to be looking at as to whether or not he ultimately -- they reached a conclusion on his case. it is simply easier to reach a conclusion on the cases of people who were actually on the grounds of the u.s. capitol that day who allegedly pointed a canister of pepper spray at police, who used that police shield to bash in the window, for example. so you know, people who were actually on the grounds that day, those other defendants, it's going to be a lot easier for the jurors to look at the evidence here. so i think tarrio is the one i'm looking at. >> also joining us is nbc news justice correspondent ken dilanian. let's talk about the scope of this investigation. it's been about 27 months since that attack on the capitol, and now we know there have been more than 1,020 arrests in connection with that attack. this has been a huge lift for the justice department. >> that's right, ana, by any measure the largest criminal investigation in the 153-year

history of the justice department, and that's really the big picture here. whatever happens in this case presumably they will get convictions on at least some of the counts in this case. what the justice department has done with this investigation is sent a message that they will hold accountable the people that breached the capitol and the people that committed violence, and they've done that in a massive enterprise here, calling on all sorts of resources, probably not enough as ryan reilly has been reporting consistently, the number of potential defendants probably exceeds the justice department's ability to bring every case. but they've done about as much as could be expected here, more than they've ever done in any case like this, and they've gotten significant convictions and significant prison time, and we've learned a lot. principally, i think the main things we've learned is that witness after witness have come forward and said that they were acting because of donald trump's words, that that is what caused -- what donald trump said on the ellipse that day and some

of the tweets were some of the principal reasons they were committing that violence. but we also learned that there was no organized conspiracy reaching out many, many weeks in terms of planning to breach the capitol. it seemed like more of a spontaneous kind of decision, even in this trial that's sort of the state of the evidence. so you know, it's kind of a mixed picture, but an important historical set of facts that we're learning and very important that the justice department is holding these defendants accountable, ana. >> for our viewers who may be just tuning in, we are awaiting the reading of the verdict in the seditious conspiracy trial involving five members of the proud boys, the trial starting months ago back in december when jury selection began to now in this moment in may, and so they've been deliberating. the jury has been deliberating for the past several days, and now we have learned they have reached a partial verdict. we're awaiting what that partial verdict is. i want to go back to ken here

because, ken, this is, again, prosecutors with the justice department who have been putting forward this case, special counsel jack smith is taking on a related but separate part of this case related, the broader case related to january 6th. can you explain how there has been sort of this separation and what his role is versus the rest of justice department's work? >> yeah, i mean, the shorthand way to look at it is smith is looking at the white collar end of this effort to overturn the election, and of course he was looking for any potential links between donald trump and the people afternoon him, the people wearing suits who are meeting in hotel rooms and planning efforts to overturn the election. he was looking for any potential links between them and the violence and the proud boys and the people who actually attacked the capitol. so far there haven't by any direct links established. nonetheless, there was a massive effort to try to overturn the

election, including putting forth fake electors and trying to pressure mike pence to stop the certification through means other than violence and that may have been illegal, and that's what jack smith is looking at in terms of january 6th, and he's looking at fund-raising and white collar, technical violations of the law, which aren't about attacking police officers or breaching the capitol physically, but which may have been just as dangerous at the end of the day, just as much of a threat to our democracy, and that's what jack smith is looking at. >> we know that jack smith's grand jury just recently heard from the former vice president mike pence who testified before then in that particular investigation manifestation. i'm going to squeeze in a quick break here. everybody please stand by as we await the partial verdict in the case involving the proud boys and this seditious conspiracy trial. we're back right after this. l. we're back right after this. with verizon, you can now get a private 5g network. so you can do more than connect your business, you can make it even smarter. now ports can know where every piece of cargo is.

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one of the defense attorneys had objected to taking the partial verdict, meaning they wanted to hold off and wait until everything had come back, let the jury deliberate on these other remaining accounts. what judge kelly said he is going to take that partial verdict. the jury will come back into the room. the counts they've reached a conclusion on, they will then deliver their verdict on, at which point we could have a situation where the judge tells them to go back and continue deliberating those outstanding counts. it seems as though the jury is pretty locked up on those charges. so you know, i think this is going to be the big -- this is going to be i think for the most part the big moment here on these partial counts because if they haven't reached conclusions on the other ones, those are going to be a little bit more difficult for them to get to, even if they're given this sort of allen charge as it's called, that dynamite charge and told by the judge, listen, you guys have been going at this for a while. keep going at it, try as hard as you can to reach a verdict. >> it's not an easy case,

obviously, because this trial unfolded over five months. if you're the jury, barbara mcquade, how difficult, you know, is it to synthesize the case for these jurors given the sheer amount of evidence that was presented? >> yeah, the amount of time is not a friend of the prosecution. when i went to training when i fist started at the department of justice, i remember being told this, the department of justice doesn't often lose cases because the jury didn't believe its evidence, the department of justice loses cases when the jury didn't understand its evidence, and so we were urged to keep things simple, keep things short and not let too much time go by. i can remember trying to persuade some of our prosecutors to just stop, you know, you've proved the case. at some point you're going to lose the jury, and so i don't know whether they made a mistake or this was just the amount of evidence or sometimes there are things beyond a prosecutor's control. the judge allows too many

delays. the judge indulges too much bench conferences or too many objections to the evidence. so there are a lot of reasons trials can take a long time. no doubt it is a long time for members of a jury to remember and to collect the evidence, and in this case, by my count, there's something like 46 separate verdicts they have to make. nine counts with five defendants and a tenth count with one defendant. so i think that's 46 decisions they have to make. so that's a lot of work that they have to go through. they have to find for each defendant on each count that every element was met, so that's a lot of work. >> i want to give our viewers as much information as possible as to what's happening inside the courthouse right now. we can't show it. cameras aren't allowed inside federal court. and ryan, we understand the jury is now being brought back into that courtroom, and the judge did give some sense of what might happen after this partial verdict was given. what are we learning? >> reporter: that's right. the jury is now back in the

room, just before they came in the judge said this they will indeed deliver the partial verdict and then they will be instructed to go forth and continue deliberating on those remaining counts. right now i guess the big question is what counts have they reached a verdict on. that's going to be sort of the ball game here in a lot of ways for figuring out which defendants are ultimately found guilty, and you know, again, i think enrique tarrio is probably the big one here because it is sort of an all or nothing scenario for him because he was not on the grounds of the u.s. capitol, there's not like a backup charge that you can find him guilty of, right? it's either sort of he was a part of this conspiracy or he was not. so i think that that's what we're ultimately going to be looking at potentially here or perhaps the seditious conspiracy count was just, you know, too much potentially here or perhaps this seditious conspiracy count was too much for the jury and they could be looking at one of these outstanding counts they have in terms of obstruction of an official proceeding, which a lot of defendants have been found guilty on. at the same time, that

obstruction charge is facing a federal appellate appeal for a lot of these defendants, and the future of that charge is a bill up in the air because that was a law that sort of grew out of the aftermath of the scandal that's now being applied to this obstruction of an official proceeding in terms of a congressional proceeding. it's a bit of an experimentation they have been doing here in order to hold the defendants accountable for their actions on january 6th. >> assaulting officers might be one of those charges that's easier to reach a conclusion on, and we know they haven't reached a conclusion on some or at least one of these charges. your thoughts that this judge is going to make the jury go back and continue deliberations and not letting them off the hook? >> and that's rule 31, which themselves are kind of

controversial. you can take that with a block of salt coming from me. i'm a criminal defense attorney. but it allows or encourages juries to deliver a partial verdict, to hurry up and resolve what they may think of as a provisional type of resolution and not being aware of the finality of it. to be candid, partial verdicts encourage efficiency. they encourage resolving a case, and they do avoid mistrials, at least as to counts the jury is confident about. so they do serve an important purpose, and defendants challenge them all the time with limited or virtually no success at the appellate courts. but you can see and expect the defense here is going to object to the partial verdicts. they will not be successful in the district court, and they will probably not be successful if they appeal on that basis as well. so this is allowed. the jury will return a partial

verdict. it's allowed as long as there are multiple defendants or multiple counts. in this case, you have an abundance of both of those, so no problem with returning a partial verdict. the jury will continue to deliberate, and they may return more partial verdicts as they feel more confident about certain charges than others. and if i were betting, which i'm not, you can probably bet on resolving the lower down counts which deal with things like obstruction of government property. >> we just talked object how this justice department prosecutors have brought now more than 1,000 charges against 1,000 defendants. more than 500 of those defendants have pleaded guilty. 67-plus now have been convicted in a trial, and so this has been just an unwielding investigation in the last 27 months. after this case, again,

seditious conspiracy is a very serious charge. what's next for this investigation? what's still out there? >> there are many, many cases left to go, and many defendants who still haven't been charged, potential defendants. it's believed the number could grow by hundreds and hundreds, past the thousand mark. this is really the world series of the cases they've brought so far. i do think, though, if there is a partial verdict, as long as there are convictions on some of the main counts, no one will remember. in the oath keepers' trial, which is another big trial, there were acquittals on some of the counts, including against the lead defendant. and that's sort of lost to history at this point. to me, the big picture here is this massive effort to hold to people accountable who breached the capitol in what the doj calls the capitol siege investigation, biggest in history. nonetheless, important for the prosecutors who spent five months on this case to get a

win. they would be very disappointed if enrique tarrio is acquitted on all accounts. >> your thoughts, barbara mcquade. >> i think a split verdict here is not a big deal as long as we see a conviction on some of the big ones. i think enrique tarrio is one of the biggest ones here. he's also charged as an aider and abetter in eight other counts. it could be jurors are having a difficult time wondering how he aided and abetted when he was not on the location. of course, encouragement, incitement, planning, all of those things are sufficient for aiding and abetting and conspiracy. it will be interesting to see which charges the jury is deadlocked on. sometimes it's something very insignificant. whether one of these five guys stole a shield from a police officer is probably

insignificant in the vast scheme of things. >> what are you watching for next? so once we get this verdict, obviously, there are still outstanding cases, this is an ongoing investigation, barbara, from your perspective given all the experience you have, what are you waiting on the doj to do in terms of next moves? >> well, of course it's -- the larger case involving donald trump and his inner circle. will any of those people be indicted. i think the doj has done a very good job of prosecuting the people they have been able to identify who were physically at the capitol attacking that day. of course the other pieces that have been handed off to jack smith, those were not at the capitol, people who engaged in the planning. we know from the january 6th committee investigation, people like rudy giuliani and steve bannon were there. it seems that that is where jack

smith is focussing his energies. it also seems jack smith is getting close to the end. putting mike pence into the grand jury has got to be one of the very last things you would do. that suggests to me they're close to a decision. >> we only have about 30 seconds, but as we await this verdict, any more from the courtroom? how close are we? >> reporter: still waiting. this trial went on for a very long time. i think waiting a little longer here to find out how the jury ultimately comes down. this isn't the end of it. they're going to be back in there being told to deliberate further. there's a lot of things going into a friday, whether or not they would want to settle this and call it an end after that. we'll see what happens. >> again, a verdict in the proud boys seditious conspiracy trial expected any minute here. i'm going to hand it over to my

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