of the hour. join "chris jansing reports" every weekday 1:00 to 3:00 p.m. eastern. i'll be back here tomorrow, and katy tur in addition to that breaking news will also welcome geoffrey hinton, known as the god father of ai to discuss the existential threat he believes that technology poses to society. "katy tur reports" starts right now. we are going to get an additional verdict in a moment. good to be with you. i'm katy tur. convicted, four members of the proud boys, including former leader, enrique tarrio have been found guilty of seditious conspiracy for attempting to overthrow the government on january 6th in order to keep donald trump in power. in the four-month trial, prosecutors painted the proud boys as donald trump's army. they argued the defendants took the former president's 2020 tweet that the protest on january 6th will quote be wild

as a call to action. they said the proud boys were thirsting for violence and were prepared to stop certification of president joe biden's win by, quote, any means necessary, including by force. until the aftermath of the riot on the capitol, the charge of seditious conspiracy was rarely used, but with today's decision, the department of justice has now secured ten trial convictions on the civil war era charge. the others were the oath keepers, including its leader, stewart rhodes. but today's conviction of enrique tarrio in particular could be the most consequential win yet for the justice department. we'll explain that in a moment. joining us now from outside the u.s. district court house in washington, d.c. is nbc news justice report ryan reilly. we got a little bit of breaking news, additional partial

verdict. walk us through it. >> reporter: that's right. any moment now, i think we could be hearing from the jury on the additional charge. it also sounds like they are deadlocked on the other outstanding charges. this might be it for the jury potentially, unless there is another instruction to keep giving it a go. it seems like they have hit pretty much a breaking point on some of these charges. they reached one verdict at least out of these outstanding charges. big picture here, all of these are minor details because the take away from this is that four members of the proud boys were convicted of seditious conspiracy. the fifth member of the proud boys who was not convicted yet of seditious conspiracy is dominic pezzola. he was convicted of additional charges, felony charges that are exposing him to a significant amount of jail time. and just explain what the jury's sort of logic here, is dominic pezzola was a late comer to this conspiracy. he didn't join the proud boys until pretty late in the game. though he is the individual who

probably we have seen on video doing the most damage or at least we have been seeing that video on a loop for two years how of that initial breach of the u.s. capitol when dominic pezzola has that stolen police shield in his hands and is using it to break open the window during the initial breach of the capitol that day. but you can see the logic in the jury's decision there in terms of why they found these four other members guilty of seditious conspiracy but not dominic pezzola, himself. sort of as you alluded to, the biggest thing here is that now the justice department has secured a verdict in a seditious conspiracy trial against someone who was not actually at the capitol. enrique tarrio was at a hotel on january 6th, which is just a little bit further from the capitol than 1600 pennsylvania avenue where donald trump was on january 6th. so, you know, this is something that could have broader implications for the jack smith investigation in terms of being

able to convince a jury that an individual was part of a conspiracy that involved breaking into the u.s. capitol even though they weren't themselves at the u.s. capitol that day. >> and we were just showing that video of dominic pezzola that you were talking about. using the police shield. here it is again to break open the window at the capitol that day. ryan, stick by, stay close to us. we'll get you in here. many more verdicts are read or any more news comes out of the court which should be just a couple of minutes. don't go anywhere. joining me now is msnbc legal analyst, and former prosecutor charles coleman. i want to pick up with where ryan left off. that's talking about the broader implications of convicted enrique tarrio successfully who was knot there that day, he was in another city entirely because he was kicked out of d.c. and what that could mean for the prosecution, potential prosecution, if it comes to that, of donald trump and jack smith's investigation. >> make no mistake, this is a very big deal, and it does give

jack smith, i think, an open door to go further in terms of what he may be looking at in terms of seditious conspiracy charges as it relates to the former president. i think for a lot of people, particularly in the legal space, there was a lot of questions as to how much responsibility are you going to be able to actually put on donald trump's shoulders given the fact that he did not give explicit direction to people, and we don't have information at this point publicly about him talking directly to the proud boys. we don't know whether he was in touch with the oath keepers. for a lot of people there was a question as to whether he would be able to make that link. if you're thinking about this from a logical standpoint and you say that enrique tarrio is guilty or liable for having aen action and set this up, the question becomes at the behest of whom. it does lend itself toward suggesting that donald trump may in fact be held criminally liable, and something jack smith

may be able to move forward on. >> in this trial did they have direct communications where enrique tarrio, the proud boys, are directing people what to do on the capitol that day? >> it was not necessarily enrique tarrio, but it was a group of them collectively understanding what was going to be done and disseminating information through their communication channels. >> written understanding or a nonverbal understanding of this is what we're out there to do, this is our goal there. >> that's part of what the difficulty was in terms of establishing the seditious conspiracy charge. >> if we're talking about donald trump and we're tiptoeing toward a seditious experience charge against donald trump, that's a big deal to say that, and i don't want to set up expectations, i have no idea what jack smith is considering right now, but if you're looking at what happened with enrique tarrio, do you think it's fair to even suggest that donald trump could maybe face something like that? >> i think it's fair, but i think as you've already said to

temper expectations, there's a larger conversation in terms of how this reverberates and the impact. the impact may not be in a court of law. this is going to help frame the narrative around january 6th in a way that will reverberate in political spaces as well. don't forget, he's obviously running for president, and so how this is characterized and him being enrique tarrio and the oath keepers and proud boys being convicted in this way, basically does not do well for the narrative that donald trump wants to advance as a candidate. it may not end up being a court of law that he gets his penance. i think the implications are significant. >> you have made a perfect segue for my next guest, michael steele, i have one more question, appeal, there were novel legal theories. the prosecution was basically relying in some cases on guilt by association. what are the chances that they will be able to successfully

bring an appeal, enrique tarrio and the other proud boys? >> i don't see that as being likely, primarily, you have this group chat, string of messages in which everyone is involved, and i think that's why pezzola, the one defendant who was not convicted of seditious conspiracy, it's very clear that the department of justice laid out specifically what each individual was responsible for doing, what they did do, and the jury made a very clear distinction between each of the defendants and their actions and so when you're looking at that from an appeals perspective, it's unlikely that the guilt by association argument is going to have much traction. charles coleman, thank you very much, and as i just promised, msnbc political analyst, and former rnc chairman, michael steele joins us as well. let's talk about the political ramifications, we'll put the numbers on the screen. millions and millions of people who think that january 6th was either justified, maybe, because donald trump had the election stolen from him or it wasn't as

big of a deal as it is being made out to be. what does a conviction like this in a court of law do to that opinion held by so many americans? >> it may peel off some of the folks who go, oh, okay, if you say so. for the vast majority, that 63.they see that as part of the ongoing conspiracy that led them to the capitol in the first place. donald trump has created this narrative in that vein. he feeds it, runs throughout their political bloodstream and they repel against it in so many case, so this does not clear the deck where all of a sudden we move into a better space. and more and more americans begin to recognize the truth for what it is. what we will see is a hardening of that. why? because donald trump is still talking about this in that old

context, in that old vein, he's still feeding and pumping energy into that gnarled up little pit in their stomach that forces them and pushes them to respond as they have, who see donald trump as a victim here, who will, like marjorie taylor greene, go to jailhouses and rally to support these individuals, so this is not over. good for the justice system, the doj, given the nature of the claim of, you know, conspiracy here. but the reality of it is i don't think it changes much in terms of how that base -- that hardened base response. >> if anything, anyone is questioning what happened on that day, i suggest just going back and looking at the -- not just the news footage from the moments of it happening as it happened, but also the reaction from lawmakers in the after

math, the immediate reaction from lawmakers on the house and the senate floors talking about how they felt about the people who stormed the capitol, how they felt in the moment about donald trump's own words. my other question to you, michael, is i know the democrats are going to use this in the upcoming campaign. they're going to say that democracy, president biden's already saying this, democracy is at stake here. especially if donald trump becomes the nominee. do you see any other republicans who are running against donald trump, potentially using this to say, listen, this guy is dangerous. he's not fit for the job. and last time he lost an election, he tried to incite an insurrection. >> can i answer your last question first because it informs the question you just asked. yes, you're right, a lot of those folks watched members of the house and senate go to the floor and speak about the moment on january 6th.

but what happened since then? they effectively refuted it. they have walked it back. they soft peddled it. they called it just more politics. so that, again, doesn't get us off of that hardened edge. with respect to the question now in terms of, you know, how democrats talk about this, what republicans running for congress, excuse me, running for the presidency may say, the only one i think to challenge this is chris christie. we'll see. >> all right. we'll watch out for that. michael steele, thank you very much. and the jury we're just told has reached a verdict on count one, seditious conspiracy for dominic pezzola. it has not been read yet but after taking the final verdict, judge kelly will dismiss the jury and declare a mistrial on the remaining counts. again, the big headline here is four out of the five proud boys have been convicted of seditious conspiracy, and we will find out if the last one has been convicted as well in just a

moment. coming up, remember the millionaire republican donor who treated supreme court justice clarence thomas to those lavish trips? there's new reporting on who else in the thomas family benefitted from harlan you's quote generosity. and the warning flags the white house is waving over the potential fallout for taxpayers, in other words, all of us, if the debt limit is not raised. plus, the god father of ai joins me later in the hour. he spent decades creating the technology. why he's now so worried about it, he quit google. don't go anywhere. we're back in 60 seconds. don't go anywhere. we're back in 60 seconds we really had our hands full with our two-year-old. so naturally, we doubled down with a new puppy. thankfully, we also have tide ultra-oxi with odor eliminators. between stains and odors, it can handle double trouble. for the #1 stain fighter and odor remover, it's got to be tide. so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back.

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grand nephew. propublica is once again behind more reporting between the financial relationship between justice clarence thomas, and gop mega donor, harlan you. joining me is msnbc senior legal correspondent, laura jarrett. explain this latest reporting and what sort of responses we're getting from thomas and harlan you. >> it's just flushing out a little bit more the financial entanglements between harlan, and you, and just sort of showing the extent and how unusual it is to have this wealthy benefactor, not only as you outlined paying for the travel and the jets, but now the private school tuition for his grand nephew who he says he was raising as his son. and generally, the justices are supposed to disclose gifts. not only to themselves but to their minor children, to their dependents. now, thomas's defenders will say, well, this was a grand nephew, it wasn't actually his child. it wasn't actually his son. >> but he said publicly he was

raising him like his son. >> and had legal custody of him. but that's the argument that is out there today because the justice is not saying a word about this. he has not said anything in his own defense. in the past, he said i didn't have to disclose gifts from harlan you. >> he said harlan crow was a personal friend, and he didn't consider gifts from a personal friend he needed to put on financial forms. >> the private jets still needs to be disclosed. >> harlan crow was asked about the grand nephew. >> $6,000 a month, and they don't know for how long he was paying this, all of his tuition for all time, we just don't know. >> he said, crow's office said he and his wife support many young americans through scholarship and other programs at a variety of schools, including his alma mater. crow has been passionate about the importance of quality

education and giving back to those less fortunate, especially at risk youth. can you consider a supreme court justice's grand nephew who's being raised as his son less fortunate and especially an at risk youth, i know you can't make that judgment, but it's worth questioning. >> the other oddity is thomas received another tuition payment for this same relative, this same grand nephew, but that one he did disclose, and so the question is why disclose the one from this other person who we don't know, back in 2002, and not harlan crow. >> justice roberts, chief justice answer questions to congress about this? it seems like it's only adding up here, and there are real serious allegations that this is not proper, that this has colored some of his decision making. why not answer questions? >> you could make the argument, it's not just justice tom a there have been a slew of reports, gorsuch, and i think

there are larger issues at play for all of the justices, and you can expect more to come. >> laura jarrett, thank you very much, i should note nbc has not confirmed propublica's reporting. appreciate your time. what can senate democrats do to avoid a debt default, a member of leadership who helped avert one of the last big free falls joins me. plus, the god father of ai warns what he helped to create might just be the end of humanity. geoffrey hinton joins me on his call to stop tech companies before it's too late. to stop t before it's too late it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. [♪♪] the uk's #1 skincare if you have diabetes, it's important to have confidence in the nutritional drink you choose. try boost glucose control®. it's clinically shown to help manage blood sugar levels and contains high quality protein to help manage hunger and support muscle health.

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the white house released new calculations today warning what will happen if congress fails to raise the nation's debt limit. ahead of speaker kevin mccarthy's meeting with the president next week, the council of economic advisers says a default would tank the stock market 45% and put 8 million people out of work. joining me now is punch bowl

news cofounder and nbc news political contributor jake sherman. good to have you. you have the federal reserve and the white house both saying there's no alternative to congress acting to limit the government's borrowing limit. is that how congress sees it? is anyone preparing for the white house using executive action with the 14th amendment? >> reporter: they keep saying no, but let's lay out what the facts are. today is may 4th. the government runs out of money on borrowing authority on june 1st. this is not a calculation that will shift much because the people who make this calculation is treasury, so all the folks saying, well, maybe we can last until july, that's not really operative at this point, and the two positions are in direct conflict, mccarthy will not put a clean debt ceiling on the floor. the white house is taken to saying they could do it at any time. biden could build the wall at any time. right? anybody could do anything at any

time, but mccarthy is not going to put a clean debt ceiling on the floor, and i don't think a clean debt ceiling will pass the senate. we have spent weeks now asking senate republicans if they're backing offfccarthy's republican is. they will meet on tuesday. we're talking about a time crunch, katy. this is the scariest. three weeks to craft the debt ceiling deal when one party, the white house says they don't want a deal. the other party, the house republicans and senate republicans saying they won't lift the debt limit without a deal. so first, one party has to back off of their position. then they have to craft a deal. then, they have to get it through the house and the senate. senate takes a week to do anything under most circumstances, house will take a week to do anything. that's all the time they have. this is an intractable problem that needs to be solved immediately. >> that's good news.

jake sherman, thank you very much. let's ask somebody who's going to be involved in the negotiations. joining me now is washington senator and member of the budget committee, patty murray. senator, thank you very much for being here. let me ask you what jake was just talking about. what do you think can pass the senate if a bill comes to the senate? >> well, katy, i think it's time for us to all eat our vegetables pill. we have to pay our nation's debt, and that requires us to lift the ceiling on the debt and pay our bills. that is a separate conversation from what we are all focused on here is what is our budget and our appropriations going to be. let's separate that out, do our due diligence on what we're supposed to do, and then of course we will have to engage on what our spending plan is for the rest of this year. tying those two right now is wrong. we will get to the wrong answer, and we have a responsibility to eat our vegetables right now and do it. >> why can't you do them at the same time? what is stopping you from doing

them at the same time? >> well, first of all, what the house is offering is chaos. we are not going to pay our nation's bills. we're going to send us careening into debt. this is real, this isn't pretend. or we are going to demand that we cut absolutely basic services across the board that americans depend on, which will also create chaos and make it impossible for us to be as a country, economically viable or provide the basic services for america. those are two alternatives that are not accessible. >> the two biggest parts of the budget, the two biggest reasons we are in debt are defense spending and social security and medicare. is there anything in either one of those -- is there any fact in -- fat in either one of those that can be trimmed out. nobody wants to touch social security or medicare, because there are questions about whether that can be paid in the

future. we look at the defense budget, the black hole, are you saying there's nothing that can be taken out? >> as you know, i have been in the middle of negotiations a number of times on our budget, our debt, and our spending. and we've been able to work together as i said with paul ryan to bring a budget, put it together, both of us had to give a little, and move to where we need to be. i don't know what the outlines of that is right now because we haven't gotten that, and we're certainly not going to get to it in the next two weeks. we have a crisis clearly in front of us that we need to pay our bills. let's say together, stand together as adults, we're going to pay our bills, and we can work on those very challenging questions that you just outlined. >> do you need senator dianne feinstein to help you pass something? >> obviously, we hope everyone will be here. i'm hoping diane will be back. the fact is we have to deal with the realities in front of us, not fake our way through any of this, pay our bills, and work on

the appropriations and budget bill. and susan collins, my counter part, chair of appropriations, she's my vice chair, we are willing to dive in and work on this, so i'm hopeful that we can be able to do that soon. we need to get this whole pay our debt thing behind us so we can get to that conversation. >> americans are worried about this. can you promise them we're not going into default. 8 million people are not going to lose their jobs. the stock market is not going to tank. we're not going to have our credit rating downgraded. can you promise that's not going to happen? >> the reason i can't promise that is i don't know what marjorie taylor greene or any of those people who demanded so much from mccarthy to begin with are going to be willing to do. i think that we have to, at this point, say please, get this behind us right now by paying our bills and, yes, then we are going to have a discussion about our appropriations and budget as we do every year. don't hold that hostage to some demand that will tank our academy. >> senator patty murray, thank

you very much for joining us. we have to go back to ryan reilly who's got the rest of the verdict or what remains, at least in the proud boys trial. ryan, what do you have? >> reporter: yes, that fifth defendant, dominic pezzola has been found not guilty of the top charge of seditious conspiracy, and the judge has declared a mistrial on the outstanding counts. i wouldn't say that dominic pezzola was considered that much of a win, given that he has huge criminal exposure, and overall this is a huge victory for the justice department, securing four out of five of the top charges, and significant criminal exposure against all five defendants. arguably i think there might even be some smiles at the prosecutor's table because on appeal it's going to be a lot easier for them to make the case that the jury considered this very diligently and looked at these charges very carefully. they didn't just throw the book at everybody. they looked carefully at what the evidence shows, and what they concluded is there was not enough evidence to support a

guilty verdict against that top defendant or one of the five defendants, dominic pezzola, and he was that individual who smashed open the window with a stolen police shield. he was not as involved with the proud boys and only joined the proud boys pretty late in the game and wasn't in communication with other members of the proud boys, so they said that prosecutors did not put that case over the top. in that case, you know, dominic pezzola who took the stand in his own defense, what jurors heard from him, at least convinced them that he wasn't a part of this sort of broader movement, and wasn't in communication with the other members of the proud boys as the four defendants who were found guilty of conspiracy. >> dominic pezzola, not guilty of seditious conspiracy, but enrique tarrio, guilty of seditious conspiracy, and zachary, and ethan biggs, four

of the five men there. the national security council's john kirby joins me to respond. first, though, he's arguably the oppenheimer of artificial intelligence, and now he's worried that what he's unleashed could end the world. what geoffrey hinton warns will happen if we don't act immediately to limit ai. immediately to limit ai.

it's the stuff you see in movies, a dystopia where robots have all passed humans and will wipe us all out, except what's happening right now isn't fantasy, the so called god father of ai is warning that an end to humanity is a real risk. and he's just quit his job at google to warn us. geoffrey hinton, a renowned researcher that created the technology that became the foundation for ai says we are in danger. the advances he thought would take 50 years or longer are now at our doorstep bringing us closer to what he calls a nightmare scenario. joining me now is the god father of ai, chief scientific adviser of the vector institute, and former vice president and engineering fellow at google, dr. geoffrey hinton. thanks for being with us. your interview in the "new york times" was scary. i just want to ask you why now?

what happened in the last year that made this so urgent for you? >> so for a long time i was working on making computer models that got more and more intelligent, in an attempt to understand what went on in the brain, and very recently i realized that the computer models we're now making may actually be a better form of intelligence from what's going on biologically, so the idea that they might overtake us quite soon suddenly became much more plausible. far long time i said that will be 30 to 50 years, now i think it may be a few years. >> what are you scared of happening if they do get smarter than us in a few years? >> the reason i'm talking out now is we need to think hard now about how we're going to control something that's more intelligence of us. we don't know if there's a simple way to do it. it's not like climate change

where you can say, if you stopped burning carbon, you solved the problem, there isn't a simple solution like that here. not enough people are thinking about it, and not enough resources are going into thinking about it, and that's why i'm speaking out. >> so there were a couple of letters signed by more than a thousand tech leaders to temporarily pause ai because of what they say are the profound risks to society and humanity. the 19 members of the association for the advancement of artificial intelligence signed an open letter also warning of ai's risk. this is serious stuff, profound risk to society and humanity, you're on my show warning about it now. you're doing interviews. what can be done? how urgent is this? when you talk about climate change, you say it's not quite the same. climate activists who see the world as under serious and dire threat are going to extreme lengths to protest and try to get the public to pay attention. what should be happening now to get the public to pay attention

to this? >> well, i think we understand climate change much better than we understand this. having things that are more intelligent than us is not something that will arrive, but there's a good chance it will arrive in the next decade. that's completely new territory. things are incredibly uncertain, and not nearly enough thinking is being done about how we're going to keep them under control. >> who does the thinking, the leaders of google, the leaders of microsoft, is it governments, who do you think should be responsible for putting this pause on it to think long and hard about what it might do to all of us? >> i'm not actually calling for a pause on it because i think that's completely unrealistic. if the u.s. paused, china wouldn't pause, and it's inevitably going to be developed more because it's so useful. this could cause incredibly good things. it would be much nicer to see a

family doctor who's seen 100 million patients, than a doctor who has seen a few thousand patients. it could make everything much much better, more or less everything much better, and that's one of the reasons people aren't going to stop developing it. we should be thinking very hard, all the people you mentioned, governments, leaders of big tech companies and scientists should be thinking hard about how we can keep it under control. it's not certain that we can, but obviously we need to try. >> i know you had a conversation with the ceo of google, as you were leaving and the times said you weren't going to divulge details of the conversation, but i just want to ask you, did that conversation leave you feeling more hopeful or more pessimistic? >> it actually left me feeling more hopeful. the ceo of google is very well aware of these things, and google is actually being very responsible. they had a big lead in this

area. in 2017, developed transformers and diffusion models and didn't put it out there. now that microsoft has put it out there so that people can use it, google is going to compete with them. that's capitalism. you're not going to stop that. what's important is before it gets more intelligence than us, we need to put a lot of work into thinking how we might control it. >> it's inevitable if it's out there, going to fall into the hands of people who may not don't have the same values, same motivation, same goals, how do you stop it? is it possible to stop it or to control it if it falls into the wrong hands? >> i don't think it's possible to stop people like putin using it for bad things. but what i'm talking about is the existential threat of this kind of digital intelligence

taking over from biologic intelligence. from that threat, all of us are in the same boat, the chinese, the americans, the russians, we're all in the same boat. we do not want digital intelligence to take over from biological intelligence. everybody realized if there was a global nuclear war, we all lose. that was sufficient to get people to cooperate. it's going to be harder here. but maybe that's a ray of hope. >> you talk about three different phases of worry you have and in the short-term, you talk about disinformation and misinformation. and we are already seeing the development with artificial intelligence of images of humans of people that look like humans, and there are some subtle ways you can see that they're not. they have too many fingers or too many teeth or just random or just created imagery that didn't exist, you know, images of pink taxi cabs as scott pelley did on

60 minutes, how do you, as a regular consumer out there of the internet, of information, how do you tell what's real and what's fake? how will you be able to tell what's real and what's fake? >> so i think one thing governments could do with regulation is insist that you're not allowed to put out voices or images or text without making it perfectly clear that it was generated by a computer rather than being real. >> so government regulations. do you think the governments have the ability to pass legislation like that? do they understand it enough to get their heads around it? >> well, my worry is that the government doesn't even seem to be able to stop giving rifles top teenage boys, which seems to be a no brainer. if they can't do that, this is a much more difficult problem, so that worries me. >> they'll argue that's the second amendment, so it's intractable. geoffrey hinton, dr. geoffrey

hinton, thank you very much for joining us and for issuing this warning that you have here on this show. we appreciate your time. >> thank you for inviting me. coming up next, he was choked to death by another rider on the new york city subway, what we know about the death of jordan neeley, and what's happening next. neeley, and wha happening next ld. there's an abundance of reasons to get started. how far we take an idea is a question of willpower. because progress... is a matter of character. ♪♪ the only thing i regret about my life was hiring local talent. if i knew about upwork. i would have hired actually talented people

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the streets in lower manhattan after the death of a homeless man who was killed while in a choke hold on the subway earlier this week. here is that protest right there. joining me now from new york city is nbc news correspondent rehema ellis. you're outside the subway station where it happened, the broadway lafayette station, what happened? what does the nypd say they believe went down? >> reporter: according to the nypd report, katy, they say that there was a dispute, a verbal dispute between two men. one of them jordan neely, and the other, a 24-year-old man. that escalated into a physical altercation. they also say that during that altercation, neely was placed in a choke hold, which led him to become unconscious. he was later pronounced dead. and that the medical examiners ruled that it was -- that cause of death was a homicide. i want to show you a full screen we have of a witness who was on

that train at the time. i have been told this is also the man who recorded some of the video, and it says, he talked about how a man got on the train and began saying things in an aggressive speech, and saying he was hungry, he was thirsty. he didn't care about anything. didn't care about going to jail. didn't care about a big life sentence, that it didn't matter even if he died. how that led, that kind of conversation or that kind of speech led to this chokehold is what many people are questioning. there's a lot of noise out here in the city of new york, as one person said to me, and that this kind of thing is not unusual, that people get on the subway and make a lot of noise. what led to it ended up in a choke hold death is what's under investigation right now. police want to know. they did talk to the 24-year-old man and let him go, and some people are very disturbed that that 24-year-old man is not in custody and has not been arrested and has not been charged with anything. authorities say it's under investigation. >> it's been ruled a homicide,

they're investigating, they haven't brought any charges. do we know anything else about this 24-year-old? >> reporter: well, there's talk that this 24-year-old man is a former marine. we don't know why he was on that subway. we don't know where he was going or where he was coming from. a lot of questions have yet to be answered. and even in terms of the definition of the cause of death as a homicide, authorities have said it's important to remember that the ruling of a homicide is not a ruling of intent or culpability. that's up to the district attorney's office to investigate and criminal justice to lay out the concerns here. the mayor had mentioned earlier today that there are many layers to this story, and he wants all of and he wants all of them to be revealed in this investigation before anything else goes forward. he wants the process to play out. some people are not happy with the way the process is playing out right now.

>> reporting from houston street where this took place. thank you very much. coming up next, the latest on the proud boys trial and what the verdict might mean for the future ken dilanian is joining us with more news. (psst psst) ahhhh... with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting, non-drowsy relief. (psst psst) flonase. all good.

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joining me now is justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian.

ken, we started this hour with the proud boys verdict. seditious conspiracy, this is now the tenth trial conviction from the doj on seditious conspiracy. and even though he was not in washington, d.c. at the time. >> right, this is a huge victory and vindication for the justice department. there was a time when legal expertses were debating whether it was even wise of them to bring charges of seditious conspiracy, a rarely used civil war era law. but they really have been vindicated by three separate juries. that law and that charge fits the facts of these cases. so what it says is that this was more than just a riot. it was more than just an unruly crowd that got out of control. this was an effort organized, not completely organized to the extent it was a month-long conspiracy, but spontaneous conspiracy of different groups of people to impede the lawful

transfer of power. it's part of the biggest investigation in the justice department's history of more than a thousand people arrested so far and potentially hundreds more to go. all with an eye towards sending a message that this kind of conduct cannot be tolerated and they will pull out all the stops to pursue legal accountability. >> ryan riley said prosecutors might have been happy that the charge of seditious conspiracy did not come back as a conviction as a guilty verdict for dominic, the fifth proud boy standing trial. he's the one that we have been showing in the video of him breaking through the window on the capitol. and riley was arguing that this might help them on appeal, the fact that he was not found guilty of seditious conspiracy like the others. can you help explain that? >> ryan knows these cases far better than i i do, so that's

beyond my understanding of the legal theory of that case. but i think what prosecutors are happy about is they got serious felony convictions against all the defendants. so even though they was acquitted, he was convicted of all serious charges and they are facing significant prison time. federal guidelines dictate this. we a talk about the maximum of 50 years, it's what sentencing guidelines call for. but in this case with the level of violence and the history of the proud boys, i think we're going to see very lengthy sentences with these defendants. >> so we have the proud boys with seditious conspiracy is there anybody else out there that is so far facing a charge like this? or is this the end of this particular charge for the justice department? >> it looks like the end, especially in terms of the big cases with organized groups. but every week almost we learn about new cases that are interesting. just this week a former fbi

supervisor was arrested, charged with being at the capitol, allegedly screamed at capitol police and called them nazis. so i think there's not going to see an end to disturbing allegations of extremism and new defendants, people the at the capitol, going to be charged with crimes. >> what about jack smith and his investigation into former president trump? >> so prosecutors in these cases have not presented any direct evidence that shows that donald trump or his allies were causing this and intending this violence to happen. they argue that trump sparked it with his speeches and his words, but not that he intended it. but what jack smith has now are a bunch of witnesses facing many years in prison, who may know things. and he has leverage over these people now. the justice department did you want. so they think this can only help jack smith as he investigates

the other ways that donald trump and his allies tried to stop the lawful transfer of power through words and the written word and spoken word and putting pressure mike pence and putting forth slates of electors. if there's any link whatsoever between donald trump and allies and this violence, jack smith has more leverage to find it. >> mike pence is also now testified in front of a grand jury. there's talk about what this means for the time looib for the investigation and whether it might indicate he could be coming to a charging decision. ken dilanian, thank you very much for joining us. we appreciate that on the breaking news of seditious conspiracy convictions for four of the proud boys. and that's going to do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi, everyone.