dangerous. >> yeah, just reading from your reporting, sue, a pseudonym for emergency medicine physician and other texas doctors, had been required to submit patients private medical information in a state run website without their knowledge or consent a, hearing to mandate that forces them to report women suffering from abortion complications, even when they are not. really report on section of texas all is 28 medical issues as abortion complications. doctors are required to tell the state about any women to report one of these issues when cheat happens haven't portion at any point in her life, meaning they don't have to be connected with the abortion. there used to pad the sets, jessica valenti, substack, is vital during these times. thanks so much. >> thanks, chris. >> that is all in on this thursday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. >> such an essential conversation you are having, chris hayes. thanks, as always, for great roundup. there has been a flood of news this evening, with major new developments related to the mar-a-lago classified documents investigation, and there is

brand-new reporting regarding financial payments made out not to clarence, but to ginni thomas, the wife of the supreme court justice, who is already under fire today. we are going to get to all of it tonight. but first, before all that, there is this. do you remember, during the peak of the pandemic, when people would banged pots and pans outside their windows and clap and cheer for essential workers every night at 7 pm? well, this is kind of like that, but only for mogadore hards. since august, almost nightly, trump supporters have met outside the d.c. jail, and at about 9 pm, the january six defendants, inside the jail -- they flicker their lights on and off. and that's because they are signaling it's time for everyone, inside and outside, to seeing the star-spangled banner. >> ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ >> the washington post reports that they do that on most nights. former president trump even recorded and released a rendition of the national anthem using these guys as, like, a backup choir. he then proceeded to play it onstage, hand on heart, in advance of his first major campaign rally in waco, texas, all of which is amazing on its face. but even more amazing when you realize who these backup singers actually are. the washington post identified some of the men in the video. we are not going to go through all of them. but just as a sampling, this is jonathan melas. he is awaiting trial. the u.s. attorney's office identifies jonathon melas as this man here in the video from january 6th, where he is beating police officers with a stick.

and this is the guy who appears to be leading the song, ryan nichols, who is also awaiting trial. here you can see him on january 6th as identified by the justice department, assaulting police officers with a chemical spray. mr. nichols is also famous for this. >> i'm telling you what, i'm here in the pits. i'm hearing that pence just caved. is that true? i'm hearing reports that pence caved. i'm telling you. if pence caved, we're going to drag him through the streets. politicians are going to get ♪ ♪ ♪ drug through the streets. >> the department of justice has charged more than 1000 people relay the crimes even -- now, more than two years later, people are still being arrested and just this week the fbi arrested a man they allege set off this explosive device in a capital tunnel that day. as you can see, the explosive was thrown into a tunnel packed with police officers, who were defending the capitol. they are jammed in there like

sardines. so, these individual arrests are a hugely important part of getting accountability for what happened that day. a lot of these crimes were incredibly violent. and as violent as january 6th was, as much as the massive people each seemingly had their own vendetta that day, what is increasingly apparent is that a lot of these people may have actually been ponds. now, that is not to say that many of them were not violent, and incredibly focused on violence. >> so, we just stormed the [bleep] capitol, [bleep] the mother [bleep] place. -- so much -- >> so much -- >> january 6th will be a day in infamy. that >> was joseph biggs, and in that video, he seems like he could really be any random january 6th rioter. but the truth is that he was not. joseph biggs was a leader, one of the leaders of the far-right group the proud boys. today, big's and three other

members of the proud boys were convicted on federal charges of seditious conspiracy for their role in january six. on the conspiracy council loan, these proud boys leaders could face a maximum of 50 years in prison, and they were also found guilty of other felonies. now, to understand the government's case here, it is important to know just how key the proud boys were to the attack on the capitol that day. the new york times spent months building on the work of online sleuths and watching hundreds of hours of video to identify who in the crowd that they were the proud boys. this is footage of the very first breach, the first time rioters got past police barricades. it looks like chaos. it looks like a mob just overtaking the police. but take a look at how the new york times trace the role of the proud boys, and one of their leaders, again, joseph biggs, in that first -- >> in what is widely viewed as a tipping point, a protester named ryan samson talks to

joseph biggs and immediately confronts the police. they biggs and other leaders looked on. simpson later told the fbi that he was encouraged to -- the police, something biggs denies. as the crowd pushes forward, many of the proud boys join in. they start removing barricades. and they urge others on. >> -- let's go! >> a chain reaction has been set off. the attack on the capitol has begun. >> it was initially pretty hard to identify all this movement as coordinated, in part, because, for the most part, the proud boys dressed as what one of them referred to as normies, regulars in the crowd. but once the new york times i.d. these guys, they notice the pattern. they notice the playbook in action. proud boys would rile up the crowd at one of the key entry points to the capitol, encouraging the crowd to push past police. they would then remove whatever

barriers were in that crowd's way, whether that meant moving literal barricades, or using chemical spray on police officers, so the crowds could push past them. when they met too much police resistance, they would back off, regroup, and head to another entry point. and here they are, making the second -- of the day on the east side of the capitol. >> for hours, hundreds of protesters have remained behind the barricades. but within minutes of these proud boys arriving, the police will be overrun. it's their playbook in action again. one of -- team antagonizes officers at the front. while another clears away barricades -- >> oh! she is going to throw it! oh! >> oh! >> the momentum tips. the crowd easily breaks through the police line.

and it sweeps through the next barrier. i was proud boys takedown fence after fence -- >> over and over again, the proud boys used the same tactics -- while at the crowd, remove the barriers, allow the crowds to push through. the times reports that the proud boys were critical players in five major advances to breach the capital. they were using the crowds as a tool, and it worked. and that is why today's conviction was so important. these weren't random members of the mob. they were the leaders of it. and it turns out one of the things we learned in this trial was that, not only was the mob a tool of the proud boys, but internally, within the far-right group itself, the leaders of the proud boys were losing using their lower level numbers, the lower level proud boys, as ponds as well. here's an example. during the trial, and now former proud boy, a witness who cooperated with the government -- he testified that he was surprised when the group's leaders, like joseph biggs, when they marched about 200

proud boys away from trump's speech and towards the capitol. but when the rioters burst through the barricades, minutes after the proud boys arrived, he realized that this may have been the plan all along. quote, i was putting two and two together, he recalled, and saying, this is it. now, the fact that the proud boys leaders were using their own members as pawns is not just interesting. it is also important, legally speaking. one of the guys who was convicted today, the former chairman of the proud boys, a man named enrique tarrio, he was not even in washington on january 6th. tarrio was kicked out of the city by a local judge days earlier for a separate legal matter. but today, the jury still found mr. tarrio culpable. and when you zoom out and look at not just the proud boys, but at the bigger picture of accountability for january 6th, that verdict, that call, is really important, that you didn't have to be at the capitol riling up the crowd and directing troop movements. you didn't have to be there to

be guilty of seditious conspiracy. today's ruling marks the third group convicted of seditious conspiracy charges related to january 6th. ten were convicted between the proud boys and oath keepers, plus another four who pleaded guilty. so, it's 14 total. the proud boys leaders use their members as ponds, who, in turn, used the crowd as ponds. and now, leaders of the proud boys are being held to account. but there is still one major leader who is missing here. the person who sits at the top of all of this -- >> -- >> who would you like me to condemn? >> proud boys -- >> proud boys? stand back and stand by. >> the department of justice allege that the proud boys not self as donald trump's army, quote, lined up behind donald trump and ready to commit violence on his behalf. even the defense attorneys that people defending the proud boys in this case -- they placed the blame for what happened that day on president

trump. so, now that this is done, now these middle managers in the mob are facing what could be the rest of their lives in prison, what happens to donald trump? >> after three trials, we have secured the convictions of both the leaders of both the proud boys and the oath keepers for seditious conspiracy, specifically, conspiring to oppose by force the lawful transfer of presidential power. our work would continue. >> our work will continue. joining us now are roger paulo dot ski, an editor at lawfare, who is in the courtroom today. also tonight with us is mary mccord, a professor at georgetown university law center, and host of the msnbc podcast prosecuting donald trump. mary and roger, it's great to see both of you. mary, i would like to go to both you, on the novel legal

theory that is being tested here, to secure a conviction on a very old charge. what did you make of it and why is it important? >> i think all three of these trials, the -- and the proud boys trials have been important because it shows that the department did what it was correct in doing, which is that it described the offense that -- here, which was a conspiracy to use force to hinder or delay the operation of u.s. law, that u.s. lobbying the constitutionally and statutorily required meeting of the joint session of congress to count the electoral caliphate college ballots, to actually certify the election. and this was an effort to use force to undermine the will of the voters, undermine the will of the people, and prevent the peaceful transition of power. you referred to it as sort of being novel. but it's an old statute. it's been around a long time. so, it's not so much that it is a novel legal theory. it is just that the federal

government has not been very successful in the past when it has used this charge, particularly against what i would say referred to as domestic extremists. the government has had more success when it has used this charge against islamic stream us, but not against those who are anti government, and oftentimes also antisemitic, anti-immigrant and anti-other, and want to overthrow the government for a variety of reasons. in this case, of course, it being the reason to keep former president trump in office -- so, i think it was very important that the department used discharge, even though other charges it brought in obtained guilty convictions -- guilty verdicts on, also, our 20-year offenses. so, it's not like this charge is dramatically longer, a period of incarceration for which these defendants now could be sentenced. other charges have serious 20-year penalties, just like seditious conspiracy. but it's important because it really described what they did. and so, it really is hats off to the department for building

those cases. >> yeah. and roger parloff, i would go to you. in terms of the novelty, i think what i was most focusing on is this notion that you did not have to be at the capitol that day to be guilty of seditious conspiracy. because the conceit from the justice department was, look, you could have directed the mob, at a lower level proud boys to be used as pawns, as tools, in the effort to carry out the seditious conspiracy. this was an uphill climb, in some respects, for the doj, given its history that mary mccord so eloquently laid out. what was the outlook in the courtroom through this extended trial? >> well, there was some concern about whether enrique tarrio, the top defendant in a way, the national chairman of the proud boys at that time, could be convicted and whether the jury would think that conducting -- the fact that he was in baltimore throughout all of this puts him in -- its certainly puts him in a

different situation. but you had his involvement in, really, creating the chapter, a special chapter that was created on december 12th, the day after, you remember, they -- donald trump called everybody to washington with the famous december 19th tweet, we'll we'll be while. he starts the next chapter the next day. it's a highly secretive chapter. it's devoted to january 6th. he appoints the leaders and the leaders -- select ten people each. and as it gets closer and closer to january 6th, there are more and more references in the telegram -- the encrypted telegram chats to the capitol, to violence, to maybe we ought to raise some bail money. and then, on the day of the event, he is in baltimore, yes. but he is on parlor as the riot

is taking place saying things like proud of my boys, do what you must be done -- don't effing leave, 1776. he says something to the effect that washington d.c. does not exist anymore. it's now the city of the people of the united states, come and take it. and then most damaging of all, he writes a telegram chat to the governing body of the proud boys, called the elders, and says, make no mistake. we did this. so, that's how you build a -- >> -- that's how you build a conspiracy case. [laughter] mary mccord, how do you see this ruling potentially affecting a case that the doj may be building against donald trump on january 6th? >> just one comment before that

on the novel theory -- just think about -- viewers can think about a drug conspiracy. oftentimes, the one at the top of the conspiracy, he's not the one selling the drugs, right? but his conspiracy is about an agreement to violate the law. so, tarrio certainly did not need to be there. so, as far the special counsel's investigation into jack smith, obviously, this is going to be something that makes them, i think, feel emboldened, that whatever they decide to do, whatever they think that there is evidence to support in terms of charges against donald trump and those in his inner circle -- i think they are going to feel that the department is coming off three successes in a row on seditious conspiracy charges, as well as successes in so many other cases, and that the story that is being told repeatedly to juries is something that the juries are listening to -- and they are returning the verdict that is supported by the evidence. so, when jack smith is looking

at, beyond, of course, trump's, and that was in his inner circles involvement in, as you said, sort of using the people and a mob as he's ponds, he's also how much the fraudulent electors scheme played into this actual assault on the capitol -- because there is much evidence of trump knowing about this scheme to set up false slates of electors -- trump electors -- from the states that trump did not win, seven different swing states, and then put the pressure on mike pence -- and this is so critically important. to either actually count those votes, instead of the legitimate slates of electors, or just reject those votes completely. it's something that mike pence told him repeatedly he did not have the authority to do. yet, former president trump went out to the public, again, repeatedly, and told them he does not does have the power to do this. and -- to use courage -- and in many ways, with the former president did was sick this mob on mike pence that day. we know that the former president was watching

television, watching the attack on the capitol, knew that mike pence had barely gotten out of the senate chambers and down the hallways and away from the crowd, and knew that the crowd was chanting, hang mike pence, and had erected a gallows on the grounds. so, these are all things that jackson ate and his team are going to be looking at. trump's knowledge of all of this, as he was, in many ways, as you indicated, sitting at the top. >> using the proud as a tool. for people watching who are not in the courtroom, trump's name was invoked a lot by both the prosecution and the defense. can you tell us more about that? >> yeah. you sort of alluded to it in your opening. yeah, he was part of each sides narrative for the government, of course, it really began, with the september 29th, the presidential debate, stand back, stand by, which had an enormous impact on proud boys

recruiting. and then there was the tweet, as i mentioned, from december 19th, that triggers the creation of this mos the mosd -- it was called the ministry of self-defense -- that was the special chapter -- the defendants, also, at least two of them in particular, really blamed trump for the events. and the claim was, this was not a conspiracy. the proud boys, basically, reacting to a spontaneous riot the way 1000 or 2000 other people did. and that the person to blame was trump -- so, at 12:17 pm, trump says, you need to fight like hell or you won't have a country anymore. and 36 minutes later, the

barricade falls. so, it's saying, well, it's not that the proud boys arrived at that barrier -- 200 of them, three minutes before the barrier fell. it's that they were all these people from the ellipse gradually getting in there too. so, he was in both narratives. and they are not mutually exclusive theories of what happened. >> exactly! >> it's not binary. a lot of causes went into -- he instigated the proud boys to do what he did. and he instigated other groups. but the proud boys did -- the jury found -- act in a conspiracy. >> donald trump loves having his name mentioned. perhaps not this much. roger parloff, thank you for joining us tonight and for your coverage throughout this trial.

mary mccord, please hang back, if you can. we have a very big story coming up that i would love to get your thoughts on. when we come back, yet another story tonight involving secret money being funneled to both ginni and clarence thomas. and no, this is not the story you were led to this morning. it is new. stay with us. but right up next, new details in the mar-a-lago classified documents investigation. there are reports of a inside a cooperating witness. there are alleged gaps in the security footage, and now prosecutors are asking questions about trump's relation to a new saudi financed golf league. all of that is coming up next. coming up next. - double check that. eh, pretty good! (whistles) yeek. not cryin', are ya? let's tighten that. (fabric ripping) ooh. - wait, wh- wh- what was that? - huh? what, that? no, don't worry about that. here we go. - asking the right question can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this? - what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - yeehaw! - do you have a question? - are you a certified financial planner™?

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reporting tonight on the justice department's intensifying investigation into donald trump's potential mishandling of classified documents down at mar-a-lago. according to the new york times, federal prosecutors have obtained the confidential cooperation of a witness who worked at mar-a-lago as part of special counsel jack smith's probe. specifically, smith is reportedly investigating whether trump ordered boxes of classified material moved from a storage room on the premises, as federal investigators attempted to retrieve those boxes. the report cites multiple people familiar with this

inquiry. the doj has been interested in mar-a-lago surveillance footage that captured these boxes of documents being moved around. and now, we are learning, again, according to this reporting from the times, that investigators are looking into the handling of that surveillance footage itself. to get to the bottom of what happened, the doj has apparently issued a wave of new subpoenas, and gotten grand jury testimony, including testimony from two of trump's longtime allies, who appeared before the federal grand jury today. matthew calamari sr., who was chief operating officer of the trump organization, and his son, matthew calamari, jr., who is the trump organization's corporate director of security -- those men are among the trump world figures who may have insight into the handling of that mar-a-lago surveillance footage. now, the reason for this new interest in that camera footage is this. back in october, the washington post reported that walter not waltonada, trump's body man --

remained at mar-a-lago, trump himself directed mr. mada directed -- at this point police begin -- mr. nauta -- now attempting to learn more about the movement of those boxes. one person told the times that prosecutors have questioned a number of witnesses about gaps in the security footage. gaps in the security footage that may be key evidence as to whether trump tried to hide boxes of government records from the government. so, yes, that would be of interest to investigators. and there is more. according to the times, a previously unreported subpoena to the trump organization sought records pertaining to mr. trump's dealings with a saudi-backed professional golf venture known as liv golf. which, of course, it's holding

saudi bankrolled tournaments at trump's golf resorts. it writes itself. joining us once again is mary mccord, executive director of georgetown law institute for constitutional advocacy and protection and co-hosts of the msnbc podcast prosecuting donald trump. mary, let's for start with the notion that donald trump has -- how meaningful is that? and the search they are presently undertaking to find out what went down with the security footage. what do you make of that? >> this is a story that just seems like, every day, there is new developments here. and certainly, in any investigation like this, the department will be looking for cooperating, not just one, but preferably, more than one. and it does seem, from this reporting, that they have someone who has got some inside information, someone, an employee at mar-a-lago -- and that's really key. because they need to get inside that building, and figure out what was happening when. because, i think, one of the things that is most significant about this investigation is the

potential for obstruction of justice charges. i said all along, if this was just about classified documents being taken to mar-a-lago and being promptly returned after they were discovered, well, i don't think we would be even talking about a criminal investigation. but that's not at all what happened. and what seems, in many ways, to be some of the most significant information here is, what kind of actions did trump, potentially, order after he was subpoenaed to try to make sure that the documents that the government was looking for did not get turned over to the government. and i think this new reporting about seeking the business records with respect to the saudi golf tournament businesses -- you know, this makes you also think that the government is, again, trying to figure out, why was trump trying to obstruct? what was he worried about? and so, i think that is getting, again, to his motivation. >> are we supposed to infer from that, that potentially, the government thinks that the

saudis were a reason why trump may have been holding on to these documents? >> so, it's still so early to tell. there could be all kinds of reasons for that subpoena, even things that we have not even considered. but one of them, i think, could be, either, is there something that -- at its worst, is there something that trump wants to share with a foreign government? and that of, course, goes to the heart of sort of the mishandling of classified information, and the vulnerability to information being shared with people and governments who are not entitled to be in possession of it. information that could cause grave and in some cases exceptionally grave on to the national security. so, one thing is about, is there a risk that this -- some information might have been something that the saudis would have wanted to know. but there are less extreme examples to. just that there could be something even in there about the saudis that he wanted to hide, to try to protect them. there are so many possibilities

here. but i think that -- my best guess is that it is going to some of the motivation for what appears to be, potentially, efforts to obstruct. efforts including misleading or even lying to his own attorneys. >> the fact that they are involving trump organization officials in the search for this -- again, we don't know, what is that suggesting that trump directed officers of his organization to potentially tamper with the surveillance footage that would have shown the boxes being moved around? there is so many questions. mary mccord, we have to leave it there. but thank you for stalking sticking around for double duty tonight. i sincerely appreciate it. >> no problem. >> coming up, we are going to bring you not one but two bombshell stories today about payments benefiting justice clarence thomas and his conservative activist wife. it is all happening, all the time, everywhere, all at once. and that's up next. d that's up next feeling better?

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like she goes to work at three in the afternoon and sometimes gets off at midnight. she works a lot, a whole lot. we don't get to eat in the early morning. we just wait till we get to the school. so, yeah. right now here in america, millions of kids like victoria and andre live with hunger, and the need to help them has never been greater. when you join your friends, neighbors and me to support no kid hungry, you'll help hungry kids get the food they need. if we want to take care of our children, then we have to feed them. your gift of just $0.63 a day, only $19 a month at helpnokidhungry.org right now will help provide healthy meals and hope. we want our children to grow and thrive and to just not have to worry and face themselves with the struggles that we endure. nobody wants that for their children. like if these programs didn't exist

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their path isn't for the casually curious. and that's what makes it matter the most when they find it. the exact thing that can change the world. some say it's what they were born to do... it's what they live to do... trinet serves small and medium sized businesses... so they can do more of what matters. >> in 2002, it was a 500-dollar benefits. payroll. compliance. trinet. people matter. honorary membership to a club -- 1200 dollar tires, and a 5000 dollar education gift from mark martin. we are going to come back to that last one in just a second. in 2014, it was a 530 dollar stained glass medallion from his alma mater, yale law

school. in 2015, it was a bronze bust of frederick douglass, which was valued at more than $6,000. those were some of the gifts that supreme court justice clarence thomas listed on his public disclosure filings over the years, in keeping with post watergate federal disclosure laws. while each of those reported items could raise some eyebrows on their own, they are not even the most interesting parts of thomas's disclosure forms. for that, you have to look at what is missing from those forms. in the past month, propublica has reported on a litany of items -- on trips and on payments for real estate that justice clarence thomas accepted as gifts from texas billionaire and republican megadonor harlan crow. they are gifts that justice thomas routinely failed to report. if you add up all the dollar amounts from propublica's reporting, the gifts amount at up to more than $1 million. and none of it showed up on the disclosure forms over the years. today, propublica is out with

new reporting about more money. this time, it's tuition money that crow paid to schools on behalf of justice thomas's relatives, or relative. in the late 1990s, justice thomas took custody of his grand nephew, a man named mark martin, at that time, a child. by the early 2000s, thomas decided to send morton to private high schools. and harlan crow stepped into which some of the bill. according to propublica, crow paid martins tuition at two different schools -- for the duration and the total sum of those payments remains unclear and in a statement to propublica, mark poleta, another longtime friends of clare saw mrs., said crow paid two years worth of tuition at the schools, which would amount to about $100,000 of undisclosed to asian gives. while nbc has not independently verified this reporting, crow responded to propublica with the statement about he supported tuition for many kids, and he did not deny the reporting. now, crow was not the only

person who offered thomas 2002 financial disclosure form. and clarence thomas reported a 5000-dollar gift for mark martin's education. that give, that $5,000 a gift was, from earl and louise dixon, a the owners of a florida-based pest control company. as propublica reports, thomas was very careful in accepting in these closing that contribution. according to two journals who wrote a biography of, thomas at first thomas was worried about the propriety of the duration. he agreed to accept it if the contribution was there deposited directly into a special trust for mark. and yet, when it came to harlan crow, a multibillionaire with an avowed and articulated interest in swinging the judiciary to the right, justice thomas stayed silent. and then, there was thomas's wife ginni. tonight, the washington post is reporting that ginni thomas receive tens of thousands of dollars for consulting work in 2012, as directed by federalist

society leader leonard leo. the post reports that leo instructed kellyanne conway, who was, at the time, a republican poster, to bill a nonprofit organization that leo advised, and then use that money to pay ginni thomas. this was the same year that leo 's nonprofit filed an amicus brief to the supreme court in a landmark voting rights case. in all, kellyanne conway's polling company paid ginni thomas and her consulting firm $80,000 between june 2011 in june 2012, with another $20,000 to come before the end of 2012. in a statement to the post, leonard leo said, in part, it is no secret that ginni thomas has a long history of working on issues within the conservative movement, and part of that work has involved gauging public attitudes and sentiment. the work she did here did not involve anything connected with either the courts business or with other legal issues. we are going to have a lot more on the implications of all of this coming up next. coming up next. what about your neck? it's good to go. before advil.

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disclosing more than $100,000 to pay for school tuition is presumably weighing in at some point on a case challenging president biden's plan to forgive up to $20,000 in federal student loan debt. because, as even clarence thomas can tell you, tuition can be really quite expensive. joining us now are dahlia lithwick, posted the amicus podcast and thalia farhadian weinstein, who, among many other titles, as a former supreme court justice clerk. thalia farhadian weinstein -- discloses this -- from a pest control company and then chooses not to disclose what could be a 100,000 dollar gift from a billionaire conservative activist. to me -- and i'm not a lawyer -- it seems like some kind of consciousness of guilt. how do you read the discrepancy between those two? >> that's what lawyers call a bad fact. . but really, alex, i think it

shows the bigger problem is here. because so much of what the justices can do in this space is voluntary. and so, he could make the choice to disclose one thing and not another, and then argue, well, i'm not really required to make all of the disclosures that other federal judges are. i think it's very clear that if he were a lower court judge, he would have had to reveal all of this, and so i think this has really broken open the problem with the system. because judicial is thinks -- it's two things. it's disclosure and then it's disqualification based on what you disclose. but if you don't tell us what the bad facts are -- >> right. >> if you don't tell us what the potential conflicts or actual conflicts are then we can't have an intelligent qualification conversation about qualification and whether there is going, it's really, in the system. >> yeah, dahlia lithwick, to tali farhadian weinstein's point about the system here, there are -- but in terms of the disclosure system -- harlan crow was asked by the dallas morning news, whether he

would be friends with clarence thomas if clarence thomas were not a supreme court justice. and he said, it's an interesting, good question. i don't know how to answer that. maybe not. maybe yes. i don't know. i mean, there you have the man potentially admitting that he's only doing this for clarence thomas because he's a supreme court to justice. this seems problematic as well. >> it is problematic in the extreme. and let's also note that harlan crow was asked, how did you become friends with clarence thomas after he's already on the bench? and crow literally says, oh, i was flying around on my plane. and we became simpatico. so, it's so clear that this was about him using his immense resources to buy proximity and -- and he cops to that. and so it's just to keep hearing him say, no, we are dear, dear, dear, dear friends. we are dear friends. we are not lifelong friends. this is someone who has carried

access and favor, and someone else who has been the beneficiary of that. and even though they may be dear, dear friends today, it does not change the fact that the relationship is predicated on one person wanting someone something and another person being a justice on the u.s. supreme court. >> yeah, i've got to ask, you tali, because you clerked -- the idea that the supreme court justice is riding around, living the life of insane luxury that is unfathomable to even a lot a very rich people, on a trip to the caribbean -- this is the person for whom clarence thomas was a legal guardian, mark martin, he recalls, riding jet skis off the side of the billionaires yacht, roughly 20 years ago. martin, thomas, and the crows went on a cruise to russia in the baltics. they towards st. petersburg in a rented helicopter and visited a palace. we are talking about a level of -- i'm not going to say corruption, though, that is the word that i

just said -- but a level of gift giving that exceeds the wildest dreams of many. you know what it was like on the court back in the day. with this pea even imaginable in the era of sandra day o'connor? >> absolutely not, alex. as clerks, we get a window into their lives for a year or two. and there are public servants who are living the lives of public servants, and i remember when justice o'connor was -- months and had to wait at the airport and did not move quickly enough to get to the line to get re-booked on some other flight. i mean, just the things that are part of daily life -- >> she was not flying private with a billionaire? >> indeed, no. the thing is, if you are going to conduct yourself this way, if you are going to have this friendship, as they are calling, if you have to own it. you have to put it down on that piece of paper that is available online for everyone to look at.

but we can figure out, are there some cases that justice thomas should just not be sitting in because of whatever label you want to put on it -- whether you want to say it's friendship or something else. and you use that language of consciousness of guilt. it's the culture of secrecy that, i think, is really the problem here. we actually have a pretty good framework for how to do this. and we will first find out what is up and then talk about what to do about it. but if we are not even going to be open about it than how can we have faith? >> i think people presumed guilt when there is so much secrecy. i have to ask, you dahlia, because this is breaking news from just a few hours ago, the idea that leonard leo, who is the head of the federalist society, is effectively asking an organization he's only affiliated with to make secret payments to ginni thomas via kellyanne conway smacks of the worst kind of cronyism and corruption that we have in this country. how do you read the sort of

underground pipeline of cash that is being funneled, not just a clarence thomas, but to ginni thomas? >> i mean, alex, i have to say, i thought i was incapable of shock. and i thought that this morning's revelations about the school tuition were pretty shocking. and then, to get this blockbuster reporting from the washington post, that puts the lie to the notion that leonard leo and the federalist society in the groups that he is involved with are just benign debating societies, that they are just friends with the thomas is -- i mean, this is kind of the whole enchilada splayed out for all of us to see. and as you say, it's not just that the same, quote, no mention of genie, of course, on the paperwork -- again, it's an admission that, again, he knows that would be wrong. but you have this organization that is funneling money through kellyanne conway, to ginni thomas, and then that the same

organization is filing amicus briefs in shelby county, that comes down 5 to 4 with clarence thomas as the deciding vote -- this is not a debate society. this is not just an shape or we shape the federal courts. this is an organization, a huge, sprawling, network affront groups and influence peddlers, that is quite literally trying to buy the courts to reshape democracy itself. this is really the five alarm fire. and i think we should stop calling it an ethics problem. this is way beyond an ethics problem. >> yeah. the supreme court is in crisis. i will say it. that is what is happening right now. dahlia lithwick and tali farhadian weinstein, it's great to see both of you guys. i'm sorry it is under these crisis circumstances. thanks for your time tonight. we will be right back. l be right back. i know... i was talking about the dogs. they need their lawn back fast and you need scotts turf builder rapid grass. it's revolutionary mix of

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will see you again tomorrow. and now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell, good, evening lawrence. >> good evening, alex. i know it's unfair. to spring math on anyone not named kornacki on live tv. but my question for you, before you go. how much money does a supreme court justice have to make in order to pay for his own tires? >> i guess more than $150,000 a year? >> i guess. because clarence thomas makes, in his supreme court salary,