so much so he's gotten negative feedback from progressives for his criticism of more liberal left-wing ideas and policies. so also not incredibly well known, not a showboater and pretty much a workhorse behind the seens making it very difficult to find sound bites to turn into ads as they effectively did with nancy pelosi who was someone that republican voters were aware of for years. >> the theme of this final block of the show, "bad faith republican attacks." senior politics reporter for axios, eugene scott. thank you. have a good weekend. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this friday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia groups and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence -- >> give me a name. who would you like me to

condemn. >> the -- >> proud boys stand back and stand by. >> the proud boys celebrated that shout-out from then president trump during a debate in 2020. months later, members of that group would be heavily involved in the violence on january 6th. and now they are facing serious prison time for their actions. much more on yesterday's guilty verdicts in just a moment. meanwhile, in new york jurors in donald trump's civil rape trial heard more of his video deposition yesterday while taking through some of that testimony, and also ahead, more ethics issues for supreme court justice clarence thomas. >> this doesn't sound -- >> it's not good. it keeps on coming, and i'm not sure what the consequence is here but it looks really bad. there is new reporting that clarence thomas' wife was paid nearly $80,000 by a nonprofit that had a case before the high

court. >> and -- her -- payments to her would come with instructions from leonard leo not to tell anybody she's getting the money. >> seems problematic. we'll talk about it. plus a big legal win for ed sheeran. the singer cleared in a copyright a lawsuit filed by the family of an iconic singer. we'll explain that case. good morning, and welcome to a very busy morning, joe. it is friday, if you can believe it, may 5th. with us here in washington, columnist and associate editor for the ignatius. former white house director kate bedingfield looking very refreshed and i don't know. something different. >> something's a little different. hanging out with my kids. >> can't wait to talk with you about everything. also justice and intelligence correspondent jeff dilanian and chuck rosenberg an nbc news legal analyst, and in new york

the host of "way too early" white house bureau chief at politico jonathan lemire is with us. >> jonathan lemire, mike barnicle hasn't shown his face this morning. skepticism against the red sox. not in vogue these days. the sox, incredibly hot. >> just couldn't face it, joe. he couldn't face that we have been right. that this sox team has won and worth supporting. your stat, red sox beat the toronto blue jays all three times. this week beat them four straight times. sweep at home. sox alive. players are hot and red sox, hitting home runs hit the ball all over fenway. a remarkable five games over .500 to flying exceeding expectations. >> exactly. every single day. and though may not be as important it's a what the sox did at fenway. breaking news just an hour or so

ago. we hear the wagner group, big news, i'm beer sarcastic. more anger, more dissension and deaths for the russia. a very terrible story of what my be a grueling campaign. >> joe, just at the moment that this probe, the decisive ukraine counteroffensive is about to begin we had a debacle with the russian forces beyond anything that i've seen in this whole botched story of the invasion. yevgeny, oligarch friend of putin, running the wagner ma ligs and points to dead bodies and calls out the russian minister. >> doing this for a while. >> looks at the bodies saying blood is still warm and this is on you. moscow and your fancy clubs,

while your children are living it up, and he essentially threatens to withdraw his fighters which have been paying the butcher's bill, to be brutally frank, in this fight dieing by the thousands. pull them out by next thursday if we don't get -- >> and i know you're not a kremlinologist, but what's going on here? for somebody like putin who usually controls the message as well also he does, is this part of this past week the russian propaganda needs to prepare russians for losses coming up over the next few months? >> i don't have a conspiracy view, princes fighting against each other. all the different intelligence and militia chiefs going at it. i think it's breaking down and i think the king sits isolated in the kremlin while the princes

feud. clearly he's a person who has further politicalable businesses. if i were -- if i were putin i'd watch my back in particular in regards to pregoshen. >> he probably shouldn't get in any buildings above the third floor. >> i don't think so. maybe bring back a taster before he has a little dinner. if he was caterer i wouldn't eat at that restaurant. >> whew. not have that hamburger. speaking of kings we go to london where our bbc news special correspondent katie kay is there. tomorrow officially crowned king of the united kingdom, and you know how much mika loves the royals. >> they're okay. i don't like them. >> i don't like them, they're okay. >> yeah. katty, set the scene. >> first of all, sunshine, the first amazing thing today.

yeah. and then tomorrow, i wish you guys were here. would have been great. all here together for the funeral that was so, i don't know if you can call a funeral fun but we saw all the pomp and circumstance. seeing it on overdrive tomorrow. right outside westminster abbey and i have the best view in the house. kings and queens crowned in this abbey since 1066, since william the conqueror. i know you love your history, joe. the first-ever crowning of a king or queen in the united kingdom, 973. arabic numerals weren't invented. paris not the capital of france. crusades hadn't happened. what this is all about. the ceremony tomorrow because charles became king the moment his mother died, this ceremony is all about history, regalia and the day he's been waiting for his entire 74 years. that moment they put the crown on his head. he's anointed with the holy oils

which come from greece and outside jerusalem. this is the kind of detail of this ceremony that you could barely make out. he gets anointed with those holy oils, is proclaimed kings. the congregation shouts, "god save the king." britons around the country invited to join in that cheer. at that moment he really is. been king since hi mother died in september but that's the moment it sinks in for the british public. when we see him wearing the crown we've been used to seeing elizabeth wearing. first since 1953. of course. eyes on the world on king charles. eyes of the day on the duke of oprah, harry's coming over. make him wear a paper bag as he walks in procession like this? the old nuer saints, ain'ts, paper bags? >> something similar from the british public, which, of course, not enamored of prince harry anymore. he's going to skedaddle straight

back to california after the service. not even staying for the dinner which takes place afterwards. it is archie's birthday tomorrow, archie's fourth birthday. time difference with flights get back at 8 o'clock p.m. maybe convenient that's the way it's falling. whether anywhere close to william or see interaction between them, the focus is on king charles, on the woman who will go in at queen consort camilla and come out at queen camilla and heir to the throne. a slimmed down monarchy. >> and except for harry, and meghan as well. interesting to see what that reaction's going to be, but thank you, katty. getting back to you. let's go to news. what happened? >> get to our top stories here at home after months in the courtroom pap jury convicted

five members of the far right group the proud boys of serious felonies related to the january 6th attack on the capitol. here is ken dilanian's report. take a look. >> reporter: prosecutors called them the key instigators of the january 6th assault on the u.s. capitol. >> american citizens are storming the capitol. >> reporter: after a three-month trial a jury found five members of the notorious extremist group the proud boys guilty of most charges against them. four of the five defendants including the group's former leader enrique tarrio were convicted of seditious conspiracy, a civil war era law making it a crime to violently resist the authority of the u.s. government. four were convicted of trying to obstruct the certification of prsh's electoral college victory, and all five were convicted of interfering with the duties of members of congress. many of whom found themselves running for their lives on january 6th. >> today's verdict makes clear

that the justice department will do everything in its power to defend the american people and american democracy. >> reporter: the evidence comes in some cases from the defendant's own mouths. >> january 6th will be a day in infamy. >> significance of the verdict in this case definitely goes not only to these defendants but to others as well in other investigations. >> reporter: prosecutors have not established that the capitol attack was planned in advance, but told jurors the defendants set out that day to act as donald trump's army trying to illegally keep the former president in power. >> proud boys, stand back and stand by -- >> reporter: citing that infamous comment during a presidential debate. defense attorneys blamed trump saying donald trump sold them a lie. >> if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore. >> stand back, stand by, and convicted of seditious conspiracy and face up to 20 years in jail.

ken, it's so fascinating. we're looking at one after another after another get charged, tried, sent to jail, and sometimes it's hard for us, we hear all the chattering from republicans who are glorifying these convicts and people bailed out. at an 80th anniversary, an event warsaw ghetto uprising and a 97-year-old holocaust survivor spoke to the crowd and spoke to me after and said, we're watching. we're watching. we were watching on january 6th, and when you won we won. i said what do you mean, when you won? he said you're bringing them to justice. we didn't do that here in the '30s. and we paid the ultimate price for it. the whole world is watching this, and yesterday was a huge win for people who don't believe

in mob rule in this country. >> joe, a great reminder. glad you mentioned that. you know, there was some angst when the jury took seven days to deliberate and we learned a partial verdict and concern about that proud boys it chief enrique tarrio wouldn't get the conviction. they did. four of the five convicted of seditious conspiracy and now the third jury that convicted senior members of that insurrection of conspiracy telling us what? not just a riot of an unruly crowd, broke into spontaneous violence. planned violence here. prosecutors haven't established there was a plan to attack the capitol in advance, but what they said was that the proud boys were acting as donald trump's army. that they came that day to try to keep donald trump in power. they were going to use whatever violence they deemed necessary. we all know it could have been a lot worse. the people with weapons in that crowd. thing koss have gone very --

>> it was pretty bad. >> pretty terrible. >> yes. >> and it was interesting that merrick garland, a late decision kind of, to make an appearance at the justice department and to say he promised he would bring these people to justice and that's exactly what the justice department has been doing in the biggest investigation in their 153-year history. >> chuck, we've been hearing their criticisms of merrick garland from the beginning. he's not going fast enough, not aggressively enough. you look at the people that have been rolled up, sent to jail. you look at the deliberate process that he's gone through. convictions on charges that are extraordinarily difficult to prove. extraordinarily rare. even charging here in the united states, and one after another after another he is bringing these insurrectionists, these thugs to justice. hasn't he?

>> joe, if i had a choice between being effective or fast -- >> right. >> i'd take effective. >> yeah. >> second, to your point. these are rare charges, two reactions to that. one, thank goodness. right? we're not prosecuting over our history hundreds and hundreds of people for seditious conspiracies. it's an extraordinarily rare charge. extremely serious charge. but, two, thank goodness it worked here, because to ken of point and to your point, the world is watching. now, i don't generally believe in the thing calmed "general deterrence." i don't know if we prosecute mika for robbing a bank somebody else's won't rob a bank because of it. it's theory of general deterrence, but here it pertains when you prosecute more than 1,000 people for their role in this insurrection, that message gets out, and so we bring serious charges. we take our time doing it. we do it effectively.

they win convictions in front of a jury. by the way, proof beyond a reasonable doubt. a difficult standard. i think the word gets out and that's important. >> so do these convictions and others have any connection to the jack smith probe? >> well, yes and no. broadly speaking, jack smith is looking at the role of more senior people in instigating the insurrection. perhaps even profiting off of it and, of course, he has a second line of work involving classified documents that were found at mar-a-lago and perhaps attempts to obstruct their discovery. so, yes. there's a connection, but this work that the d.c. u.s. attorney's office is doing is extraordinarily important, and so back to the very first point. >> uh-huh. >> thank goodness they're taking their time because they're getting it right. >> hmm. >> so, kate, it's interesting following up on what chuck said about deterrence factor. there's also the factor that

you're taking a thousand of the most radical anti-american, anti-government insurrectionists off the streets. i remember before trump's indictment lawrence o'donnell was saying you know, he was, kept fielding the question, are we going to have something like we had on january 6th? and he said, no. because the people most likely to do that are sitting in jail right now. the people most likely to, again, riot, tried to commit an insurrection against the united states, strike back, they're already facing justice and how important is that? >> critically important, but i think the other point that chuck made that is so salient here is, you know, these aren't charges we see all the time as a reminder how dangerous donald trump is. right? a reminder of the fact this is somebody who can incite this kind of violence, this kind of fervor. we saw it, played the clip tr

the debate in 2020 and he made this piece of his piece, central piece, motivating the white nationalist movement firing them up and whistling dog whistles from the debate stage. that's an important thing to remember, too, that his role here is unique. it is -- and it is incredibly frightening. so, yes. this verdict incredibly important taking these people off the street. showing, again, you've all said, showing the world that in america we don't tolerate this. our democracy, our freedom, is sacrosanct and a core value and something we will fight for. it's critically important, but i think we should also not lose sight of the role that donald trump played in inciting this, and this is somebody who's seeking to return to the white house and that's something that we can't ever let our guard down on. >> and jonathan, you wrote the book on january 6th on the big lie and that led to january the

6th. some of these dese defendants s did it for one reason. following donald trump's direction, his orders, told us to be there, told us this needed to be done. heard one defendant after another after another cite the nuremberg defense. i was only following the orders the donald trump. >> yeah. and that says -- >> it begs -- it begs -- there's a dramatic pause there lemire. you've got to let me do my dramatic pause. >> go ahead. >> try it again. hold on. edit this. >> no. >> edit this. fix this up. hold on a second. >> oh, god. >> all citing donald trump. it begs the question -- that's what i was going to say -- how do you indict everybody for seditious conspiracy and leave the main conspirator running it from the top, bringing them to washington, telling them to charge the capitol, how do you

not end up charging him at the end of the day? >> yeah. that is "the" key question. the question looming over not just criminal proceedings frankly our entire democracy. as just noted, not just donald trump was president that inspired the riot on january 6th. he right now is the leading candidate by far to be the republican nominee for president again. this is still, we are still living with this. we are still living with the impact of his big lie and so far he, nothing has, is standing in his way to reclaiming the white house legally. we know, of course, that he's already been indicted once. there are other investigations still going, and, ken, developments in the mar-a-lago case we're going to get to a little bit later, but right now talk to us. i know chuck's mentioned that there may be a link here. certainly jack smith, special counsel, is eyeing the january 6th, as part of his investigation, but it's a

sprawling probe that could take a really long time. give us an update. who else beyond the proud boys may fade charges, seditious conspiracy charges and, also, do we think now this could be part of the case against donald trump? >> well, there's a couple issues that link the two, jonathan. for one thing, look, prosecutors have not established at least in public any direct evidence that donald trump intended for these people to attack the capitol. they haven't shown us that evidence. shown us that his words incited these people, in their own words have said that, but now you have a number of witnesses facing decades of prison. several witnesses. but the justice department has a lot of leverage. if any know any along those lines and can help prove a link there, it's a great opportunity for jack smith but also -- these investigations are two sides of the same coin. both this insurrection and these proud boys and the conspiracy that jack smith is investigating

have the same purpose, which was to stop the congressional certification of those electoral votes on january 6th. so, you know, people talk about it as the white collar version and blue collar version of this effort here and there may be other links that smith is looking at. in terms of future cases, these are the big ones that we're aware of with seditious conspiracy, but every week there are new and shocking arrests. just last week a former fbi supervisor. >> oh, my god. >> was arrested and charged being present at the capitol and, capitol police calling them nazis, gestapo. worked in a counterterrorism role in the u.s. department. >> unbelievable. >> chuck, you did a beautiful job a moment ago talking about this inexorable prosecution. never would have imagined mild-mannered merrick garland as

inspector from the famous musical but he has been. curious where you think this might still go? as joe said, we have this figure called the unindicted co-spawn spiriter to use the watergate term, who sits atop this. garland has shown that he is willing to go harder and farther than people might have imagined. what do you see as coming next? surprises down the road? >> remember, david, unindicted co-conspirator individual one in the southern district of new york indictment charging michael cohen. that said, this is a case where you take merrick garland at his word. he said he was going to follow the facts. that's precisely what they've done. he said he was going to hold people responsible who committed crimes on january th and in connection with that. that's what he's done. i think there's an important point here that folks often miss. the department of justice by design has an extraordinarily

thin political layer overwhelmingly the men and women bringing these cases in the u.s. attorneys office, investigating these cases for the fbi overwhelmingly are career prosecutors and investigators thp this is what they do, and they're good at it. now, garland deserves credit when they do it well and deserves the blame when they do it poorly, but there is an inexorable march to justice because career prosecutors and agents are following facts. to ken's point, a lot of witnesses out there. you know, i know this not as a criminal but as a performer prosecutor. committing crimes and getting away with it is extraordinarily difficult. an example, ongoing investigation at mar-a-lago regarding the documents and perhaps movement of the documents, obstruction of the investigation. there's a lot of people who know stuff about that. you ask those people questions and you follow the facts. >> so we're going to be following these stories

throughout the show this morning, but there's still so much to get to. still ahead on "morning joe," with the supreme court already facing scrutiny for ethics issues, we are following new reporting this morning about personal payments made to justice clarence thomas' wife ginni thomas. plus a look how former president trump is returning to themes of his successful 2016 bid and stepping away from the word "republican." also ahead, much more on the historic coronation of king charles iii tomorrow in britain. we'll be joined by british ambassador of the united states karen pierce and london mayor sadiq khan and a programming note tonight at 10:00, sitting down with president joe biden for an exclusive interview. first since announcing his re-election bid. she'll ask him about the campaign, the current debt ceiling crisis and more.

watch a special two-hour edition of "the 11th hour e"with stephanie ruhle at 10:00 p.m. eastern. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ hey, man. nice pace!

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- i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. welcome back. >> just about half past the hour. a live look at the white house. >> shot of the white house. jonathan lemire, of course, when people look at the white house they go, hey. isn't that in the city that's home of the washington nationals? and, chuck, rosenberg, reminded me -- that is the name, radio it? the senator? >> is that what they think really? >> the senator and the -- 1974. >> no. >> you know who i'm talking about. should have renamed them the

senators. i mean, come on. the washington nationals went to sleep on them. i know our sox -- blue jays after 3-16 against them last year. but chuck tells me, chuck, won three out of four against chicago cubs who are hot. >> three out of four. walk-off home run yesterday. >> oh. >> after r corbin brilliant, hasn't happened a lot recently. >> and really, it sort of -- it's, stuck a stick in the spoke of the news at nbc, because ken dilanian, who's working on an important package. >> yeah. >> and called chuck. said, chuck, we need your voice. and chuck said -- >> i'm not leaving the game. >> all true. >> oh, my god. >> chose wisely. he chose wisely. >> good stuff. we're going to talk about new report about payments to the wife of supreme court justice

clarence thomas citing documents, it reviewed the "washington post" reports that conservative judicial activist leonard leo paid ginni thomas tens of thousands of dollars for consulting work, but gave specific instructions that her name be left off the paperwork. according to the "post"in january 2020 leo instructed gop pollster kellyanne conway to bill a nonprofit group he advises and use that money to pay thomas. the same year the nonprofit, judicial education project, filed a brief to the supreme court challenging a landmark civil rights law aimed at protecting minority voters. nbc news has not seen the documents or independently confirmed this reporting. in a statement to the "post"leo addressed his instructions for the paperwork writing, knowing how disrespectful, malicious and gossipy people can be i have always tried to protect the privacy of justice thomas and

ginni. >> wait. leonard -- >> just let that sit. >> when you're sending money -- >> take that in. >> to a supreme court justice or a family member of a supreme court justice, it's gossipy for americans to know money's being funneled and a guy got what? $1.5 billion to funnel around? ken, listen -- got to say at some point, you know. i've always admired the fact that john roberts is an institutionalist, even when i didn't agree with his rulings on both sides, but i was respecting the fact he was an institutionalist, but that label only applies to him for so long. if he allows this to continue in his court without coming out. i mean, because end of the day, either the supreme court is

going to issue a new set of ethics rules and guidelines, or another branch of government are. the united states congress has the power and the authority to do it, and you just wonder if -- if the chief justice is going to keep sitting back and letting all of this information come out. most of it against clarence thomas, that hurts the court. >> this story, i think, has a different character than some of the others, because this is a -- i mean, this is a direct payment and an effort to conceal a payment. this isn't about luxury travel, which is bad enough. you know, i mean -- >> trying to conceal a payment. >> right. >> giving instructions, conceal this payment to a justice's wife. >> why isn't the pace of these disclosure documents that i didn't really understand how to do them. i didn't think i could do them, whatever the excuse is, now -- now it appears that there was annest to make sure things weren't seen. is that fair? >> yeah. as a reporter -- people have

known for years or suspected that supreme court justices were taking trips that weren't disclosed. actually an effort that i'm aware of on senate judiciary committee trying to track that going to the martials trying to get records but were unsuccessful. they couldn't penetrate the veil of secrecy and now good journalists have done that and it's important that we're learning this. >> and by the way, we're going to hear b.s. from the usual defenders of clarence thomas. oh, they're just picking op him, because he's a conservative and they hate black conservatives. this challenges the, blah, blah -- all of this other nonsense. if we were reporting on the story this morning that chuck schumer's wife got paid you know, tens of thousands of dollars and that there had been a direction from the biggest lobbyists in the democratic party to keep the payments quiet, we'd be saying the same thing here today, and that is a

pure rank nonsense that, that the "wall street journal" editorial page, "national review" all the other people spewing that, oh, they're just picking on -- no. this is obvious. this is obvious as clarence thomas going through everything that he and his wife are going through in the middle of january the 6th, and not stepping aside on a case where he became the lone discenter when he had a real interest in that case itself. it just keeps piling up. >> it does. i mean -- assertion after assertion. i want to say fact after fact, but we're still investigating this, trips from thomas. payments for school tuitions for people who are related to him. payments to his wife. you get the sense that thomas and others on the court see themselves as victims. you know? people are out there to get us, and think that they get to live by different rules.

>> oh, they -- >> by the way. i knew guys, i served with them in congress, who got a golf trip to ireland paid for by jack abramoff and went to jail, went to jail, bob nate went to jail for that. several others who went to jail, and these guys are whining about how they're victims. no. jonathan lemire, they're not victims. they're on the supreme court of the united states of america, and the most powerful people in the world. they just apparently don't think that the rules that apply to members of congress apply to them, and you know who's not happy about that? members of congress. >> yeah. the senate judiciary committee convened just this week to try to get a code of ethics put in place for the supreme court. chief justice roberts declined to attend. those efforts utterly stymied. and reporting about a gift,

favor given to justice gorsuch, but most surrounds clarence thomas, of course. the "harlem" reporting just yesterday, a pro-republican on the show talking about tuition payments paid for a child raised by justice thomas. who ginni thomas is here. hugely important fig other than the right for a number of years and indeed her text messages to mark meadows so key. she was urging him in the wake of the 2020 election to keep fighting to try to overturn the democratic process. showing them now talking about how an arrest and detained for ballot fraud. people should be going to gitmo. >> she said -- go back to that last one. ginni thomas saying that the biden crime family should be on barges, criminal barges, off of

gitmo. talk about the radicalism and extremism, which, by the way, had an impact on clarence thomas and the way he ruled in a case involving january the 6th! >> how could it not? >> biden crime family. stuff right off the breitbart and extreme right wings. saying help this great president stand firm, mark. majority knows biden and the left is attempting the greatest heist of our history. another message suggests that donald trump was divinely inspired to be there to lead the republic. kate, talk to -- this is seemingly linked, also those messages thomas discusses with her "best friend" of course her husband clarence thomas. tell us about the role she plays and why this is so disturbing that someone so close to a justice, espousing those sort of radical dangerous views -- her husband is receiving, she and

her husband are receiving gifts and payments from some of the movie influential on the right who have business in front of the supreme court. >> right. it's appalling, frankly. it is appalling. if you look at, you know, the bowl that justice thomas has in deciding some of these cases. the role. look at the "post" story this morning about the leonard lee other money, the case in front of justice thomas following that payoff, essentially, was voting rights. voting rights act case. these are -- this influence and this attempt to, to hide influence is, is having a, has a massive and real-life impact on things that matter to people. we're talking about your, protecting your right to vote. we're talking about somebody who sits on the court and makes a decision about whether people who have historically been disenfranchised in this country have access to the ballot box. don't lose sight of that, too. the underlying case we're

talking about this morning is a voting acts case. joe, you mentioned bob nate. also lost the house in 2006 in part because of the abramoff scandal. people paid off. americans have shown this is not behavior they support when people have the opportunity to vote and to say, you know, this is not what i want from an elected official, or obviously someone in the judiciary outside of someone on the supreme court, they're outside facing political ramifications, but, you know, this is part of why people are losing faith in institutions, have lost faith in institutions. incredibly, incredibly damaging. >> i'll tell you, we republicans took control of the house for the first time in 40 years because of the check writing scandal. remember that? dan rostenkowski arrested for a lot less than this. snowflakes on the supreme court and the snowflakes on the trump

right who are such -- victim. they're victims. i saw ginni thomas what a victim. powerful families on the planet, embracing victimhood while she's talking about sending the, duly elected president and his family to a crime barge off of gitmo? and then she acts like she's a victim? it is so grotesque. it is so out of line. it is so un-american the things she has said. the things that she has done. the fact that people on the mainstream, supposed mainstream right, continue to defend this atrocious behavior -- it's unbelievable. and -- and -- let's just -- well, let's just peel this back one more layer. peel back the onion one more layer. listen, i'm all for people getting involved in politics. raise money, influence

elections. do what you want to do. >> vote. >> all right? i'm -- i'm not -- i'm not one of these people who think you have to, you know, question every, every donation. people afraid to do what they want to do. leonard lee other, free to do what he wants to do, but americans need to know who leonard leo is. they've heard the nane and need to know. he is responsible for the right of women to choose. i mean, being taken away first time in a half century. that's his right, his life goal. he did it. it's -- it's, again -- it's a free country. right? he's got $1.5 billion now. something like $1.5 billion now that, that somebody gave to him -- and the radicalism of the court now radicalism of his view of what justice should be, it is going to be accelerated tenfold now with that money. and we're seeing how he spreads

that money around. in this case, you know, causes a lot of concerns. shouldn't we know more about who leonard leo is and how he has changed america? so 10-year-old girls who are raped in ohio have to flee the state, because they may not be able to get abortions in their own home states? >> right. so we should have more robust disclosure. a point missing from some of this discussion. we talked a lot about what the technical moves require. you know? what must the justices disclose. but what that misses, joe, dramatic pause, is, there's a perception issue. we've woo lost confidence in all of our institutions, in academia, in the courts, in congress, in the presidency. in corporate america. and so you have to be worried about two things. whether or not something is fair, just, appropriate, proper,

rule-abiding, and whether it's perceived that way. so when we keep talking about what the rules require, we ought to also ask ourselves, what is the perception? and you mentioned earlier that chief justice roberts, who i often disagree with but admire is an institutionalist. if you're really truly an institutionalist you would care deeply about the perception of the institution. so whatever the rules actually require, the perception is deeply damaged right now, and that's a problem for all of us. >> and, mika, the supreme court's perception. >> uh-huh. >> on, based on polling, lower now than any time. >> just take it to clarence thomas. just look at this, and i know that the technicalities here, maybe didn't understand how to write a disclosure document but does extreme details on cases -- this makes no sense. okay? flies in the face of logic --

but a republican donor gives his hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of vacations over decades. okay? not one mistake. just a lifestyle that is provided to him by a republican donor. his mother lives for free because of a republican donor. his son or adopted son has tuition payments -- this is what we know. then we find out that leonard leo is sending money to cover it up to ginni thomas, his wife, who, of course, we just went over those text messages. the perception is, he's compromised. the perception is, he is owned, and that's a very clear perception. >> by the way, he may not care about it. again -- >> that's even -- >> he may not care about it because the way he was treated in his nomination fight, which we've read time and again, they continue to carry those scars. he may not care about it, but even if he doesn't give a damn about what americans think about the united states supreme court,

shouldn't the chief justice -- >> yeah. >> to the extent he is an institutionalist, very much so, and mika, to that list that you just cited, if there's nothing wrong with any of that, then disclose it. if there's nothing to hide, then don't hide it. i mean, i'm not certain that technical rules were broken. i'm not an expert on the technical rules. i am certain there's a perception that rules were broken and that is just as damaging. right? you have to be fair and perceived as fair. if you're only fair and not perceived that way it's a problem. and the you're unfair it's a problem. if you have nothing to hide, don't hide it. >> and ken delaine yarn and chuck rosenberg thank you both very much for being on this morning. a lot more to talk about ahead. coming up the united states has sent its clearest signal yet that the biden administration wants to restore a broader dialogue with china. we get a live report from beijing. plus, the british ambassador

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and ask about an $800 prepaid card. comcast business. powering possibilities™. . all right. >> all right, look at that, rain. rain. whoever would have imagined that? in london, silver rain was falling down upon the grounds of london, your bbc documentary titled europe's royals revealed, explores while the monarchy is relevant, and what king charles can learn from europe's other royal families. i'm sorry, i'm so distracted by the rain. >> it looks good. your hair looks good. >> what is it, king's delight, how does it go? >> something like that, maybe one of the lessons for the documentary. should have been that they should hold the coronation in the mediterranean where you were going to get sunshine.

this is really interesting, what i want you to figure out is why monarchy, this ancient tradition is relevant in the 21st century. let's take a quick look. >> it seems as something about having a king or a queen that works rather well. >> you can't walk past that line. >> then you'll shoot me. >> i think i want to live here. >> i can't quite believe i'm about to meet the grandson of king zog. >> it's my duty to do good in life. >> not too shabby. >> everything you do, that's a first, is very much going out of the box that you're put in. >> it's like kind of gathering of the clan. you don't have a throne. however much you play at it, isn't that all it is? it's sort of a show. >> i can courtesy and talk at the same time. your highness. tell me how you would like me to address you. >> your highness or princess,

or -- i don't mind. >> what does it mean to you to not have a throne? >> i couldn't go in my country. >> even in the unlike lie form of a self-appointed deposed king with hair flying around. do i look like a princess? i mean, i actually do not look like a princess. i had great fun but really it was about what does king charles need to do to make his reign a success, how does hi approach the press and deal with the members of the royal family that are, let's say, a little bit tricky. you can find it by the way, my bosses will kill me if i don't say this, on bbc select on amazon prime, apple plus tv. it's an interesting question, why do people still seem to love monarchies? >> i love it. >> caddy -- >> this looks great. >> mika has been a skeptic when it comes to the royals. >> this is why i love it. >> very patient. i r, of course, all in on the crown, you name it, i've always

been in on this stuff. looking at charles through the years, tortured relationship within the family, and outside the family, saying that he's responded quite well after pengate at the very beginning, responded quite well. and i've been really surprised looking at clips, watching how engaging he is with people. if somebody's been waiting for him for two or three hours he'll run up, how are you doing? he'll shake their hands. how long have you been here. they'll say two hours. east, my god, he'll say, that's too long for me. he's had the light touch in a lot of ways, he and, of course, william, and kate, extremely popular with the british public right now. >> yeah, i mean, those northern european royals have approval ratings in the 80s, which most politicians would die for, even among young people. and the reason they have it is

because they are not seen as aloof, because they're not shut behind big walls. they do interact with their population. they're called the bicycle monarchies, i think that king charles is going to move the british monarchy a little bit more into that model. he's going to make it more accessible, more at one with the people, to the ex-at the present time that you ever can be if you're a king or a queen. i think he has to. i think in order to survive monarchies have to be more approachable. that's why their populations will support him. also, you have to give king charles credit, he was derided for being an environmentalist way before talking about climate change was fashionable, or popular, or the thing to do. he was kind of mocked for talking to plants. well, look, who was on the right side of history? who stuck by his beliefs? it was king charles. who is beyond jill biden, who's the most senior american who's going to be in westminster tomorrow, it's john kerry, the

climate czar, he's here for a reason, he's here because king charles recognizes the work he does and he knows king charles because they've worked on the same subject for years. i think the british public is giving him credit for sticking to his beliefs and actually being ahead of the times. >> all right. caddy, i can't wait to see her documentary. >> so excited. >> it looks amazing, and good luck with the rain. joining us now here on set we have the british ambassador to the u.s., karen pierce. this is quite a historic moment as caddy points out. >> absolutely, hasn't happened for 70 years in the uk. >> go ahead. >> i was just curious, we see what's happening right now in the coming offensive against russia, we see obviously the united states and britain and nato allies have held firm. how much should we continue supporting ukraine? is britain behind ukraine all the way? >> to the hilt.

prime minister rishi sunak made that clear, we're going to carry on supporting ukraine, make sure they have the defensive weapons they need and we are going to be guided by them on the future trajectory of the war, it's for them to decide when they want negotiations but nato, the g-7, president biden, everybody's full square behind ukraine. >> ambassador, it's always struck me as add that we're a country that found its birth in rebelling against the british monarch, but americans have developed a real passion for the monarchy, we feel we know every intimate detail of charles' life by watching "the crown." >> some parts of his life that we didn't want to know. >> more detail than anyone would have wanted revealed about their life. i want to ask you about your own thoughts about the monarchy. charles wants to be a modern king, but there's a way in which the monarchy ties britain and

its people to the past. it's about that sense of being anchored. how do you think this is going to play with the british people, the monarchy's getting a little less popular than it has been. what do you see for the future of this king? >> i think the overwhelming majority of people still want the monarchy to continue, but you're absolutely right, david, the king has spoken about a more modern monarchy, as caddy was saying he's very keen on the theme of accessibility, of getting out there. he and the queen have a very good sense of humor, very good at connecting with people. he does a lot of work for young people. he has a charity, the prince's trust, which helps young people start businesses, get on in life. he puts a lot of emphasis on apprenticeships. i think he's going to deepen that aspect. i think the other thing that's really noticeable about him is how he wants to bring all communities in britain together. you'll see at the end of the coronation, an opportunity for

non-christian faiths to come together, and churches that are not the church of england. that's incredibly important to him, along with environmentalism i think that's one of the things that's really guided him. >> so it is the top of the hour. we're talking to the british ambassador to the u.s. in a moment bob woodward of the "washington post" will be joining us but for now the conversation continues, we're a day away, is it a day away from the coronation? >> yes, we are. you're going to be getting up very early tomorrow morning. >> yes, are we invited? >> of course you're invited and kate and david as well. we're going to have a breakfast screening live at the british embassy. >> that sounds like fun. >> you're very welcome to come. after that, it's embassy open day, so we will have an exhibition outside the embassy, and we'll have flags and things, and people are welcome, if they live in d.c., to stop by, grab a flag, grab a piece of shortbread. >> oh. >> and other british delicacies and hopefully enjoy the day of

embassies being open to the public. >> how exciting. >> i need to change my weekend plans. >> there you go. >> we obviously, we're all struggling through tough economic times, and britain's been especially hit. what is the outlook for the british economy? what can be done to help revive it? >> well, as you say, cost of living is very high at the moment in the uk, inflation is high. but we have overcome the problems of last september. we had a very good budget from our chancellor who's like the treasury secretary. we are now getting the economy back on track, getting inflation down, dealing with fuel supplies and crucially putting the economy on the right trajectory for jobs and growth. >> so the outlook is good? >> the outlook is good. the underlying fundamentals about the british economy are very sound, you have the city of london, you have a free enterprise approach, you have a

well-trained workforce, all those things are going to continue. one of the prime minister's big focuses at the moment is economic security. he hopes to be over talking to president biden about that later in the summer. >> fantastic. >> i wonder, ambassador, i know young people in particular have some -- seem to have more hesitation about the monarchy. is there something that the king intends to do, does he have outreach to younger people, does he have plans? can you speak how he continues to engage younger people in britain as they move forward into the future of the monarchy? >> he's been very good about opening up events at the palace as have william and kate. william and kate were traveling by metro yesterday, went to a pub in soho. they're very good with their charities. kate does a lot of work on early child development, william shares many of his father's

interests in climate and the environment. he has the earth shot prize. if you'd seen william and kate in boston at the kennedy lie briar for the earth shot prize last november the place was full of young people. and the people outside cheering for them were primarily young people. so i think that accessibility, that connection with the public is being passed down from one generation to the next. >> ambassador karen pierce, thank you very much for being on the show this morning and thank you for the invitation. >> oh, very excited. >> very excited. >> thank you so much. >> a few minutes past the top of the hour now the united states ambassador to china says the u.s. wants to hold high-level talks with beijing in order to forge better communication channels between the two governments. let's bring in nbc news foreign correspondent janis mackey frayer, live in beijing. janis, you spoke with the top u.s. diplomat in china this week

for an exclusive interview. what did you learn? >> reporter: well, i spoke with u.s. ambassador to china nicholas burns, and he told me that the u.s. is ready to talk to china, but it seems that china isn't very interested in giving any high-level access to u.s. officials. that includes a phone call between president biden and china's xi jinping, which has been talked about since february in the fallout of that chinese balloon being shot down. as well, there is no official timeline now to reschedule that cancelled visit of secretary of state antony blinken to come here. now, the ambassador made these comments in our short interview. they're among some of the clearest signals yet that this administration is actively trying to restore some level of dialogue with china, and it isn't having much luck. and we're also seeing both publicly and privately some u.s. officials are now beginning to

temper their language around china, in particular its desire to play a mediating role in the ukraine crisis with the stakes so high, with the global economy, taiwan, ukraine, and of course russia. here's more of what u.s. ambassador nicholas burns had to say. >> how problematic is it that china doesn't appear to want to talk to the united states when it seems to be diplomatic business as usual with europe and other countries? >> it's an issue, our instinct as a government is when that times are tough, when you're encountering big problems, and big challenges, in a bilateral relationship, that's when we should talk to each other. so it's not our choice. we have concerns that our secretary of state has expressed, secretary blinken about whether or not china is going to provide lethal military assistance to russia for its illegal war in ukraine. >> have you seen evidence of that? >> we have not seen evidence of that, but we're watching very carefully. we have a difference of opinion there. we see china essentially

supporting russia in this war. we have differences of opinion on taiwan. but we need to have a stable relationship. you can achieve that, sometimes, and we hope to in this case, by having high-level cabinet conversations, by having full access for all of our diplomats here in china, and that's what we're arguing for. >> arguing for. that's what they're arguing for. and that gives a sense of what the knock-on effect of this current situation is, not only is there no high-level access between u.s. officials but there are no visiting members of congress, there are very few american ceos who are coming here and the student numbers are staggering. a decade ago there were 14,000 american students who were studying here in china, and today there are 350. those numbers have been gutted, covid played a role, but politics playing a role too. and so far there's no indication from either side that u.s.

officials are going to be welcome in china anytime soon. jonathan? >> hey, janis, to that point defense secretary austin is trying to have a meeting with his chinese counterpart, no response yet from beijing. i wanted to ask you, though, the president of the united states is heading to that part of the world pretty soon, in about two weeks time he's heading to asia, the g-7 in japan, but then also a trip to australia, which is largely going to be focused on the alliance there, and efforts to sort of combat china's rising influence in that region, he's going to be -- central theme of the president's remarks, these are a concern that as much as the white house administration is reaching out to talk that china will take the president's visit to the region as a provocative act and may rein back even further. >> it's hard to say because at the same time china has been making overtures to australia to try to repair relations there. it's been years of animosity

with the australians seeing the knock-on effect, and everything from australian beef to wine, there does seem to be a bit of a thought in -- thaw in those relations. but the u.s. finds itself at a particular turning point now. even john kerry was saying he's only hopeful he's going to be able to come to china to meet with his counterpart on climate. all of those issues that the two sides had agreed to talk about in singapore, there is no progress on any of them, not on climate, not on fentanyl, and certainly not on any of the more meaningful issues. what will be an indicator is how the u.s. messaging or position might change on playing a mediating role in ukraine. certainly, xi jinping has the leverage with vladimir putin, the u.s. side says it wants to see china try to put an end to the violence in ukraine, the jury is still out on whether that is about to happen.

but there is the sense that there might be more to be gained in ukraine from encouraging china to play a role so that because he's able to shake the hand of vladimir putin in public and twist his arm in private. >> so janis, help us out, pretty radical shift from before the chinese spy balloon was discovered where you actually had president xi willing to meet one on one with america's secretary of state. they were so interested in getting this relationship back on track. after the spy balloon obviously pretty dramatic change. can you go into that? is this just posturing on the stage going around talking to allies, talking to adversaries, and trying to put themselves in the best possible position for when that meeting does eventually take place? >> well, it came at a time --

the balloon came at a time as well when china was trying to shore up its ties with europe, trade with europe extremely important to china right now, and certainly we saw with the effect of emmanuel macron's visit here, in terms of how it's also changed the view of the u.s. and the u.s. being in a dominant position. in terms of what happens next it really isn't clear. i think it's a position that u.s. officials haven't found themselves in before, we're in a period where the chinese side doesn't feel the need to impress the u.s. anymore. it seems to be making diplomatic inroads with europe, with other countries, it's pushing forward with its proposal to come up with a cease-fire in ukraine. xi jinping had that conversation with volodymyr zelenskyy who was very pleased with the outcome, real enthusiasm on the part of zelenskyy in what he called a

long and meaningful chat, so there seems to be a repivoting of sorts on the u.s. side to acknowledge that maybe china can play a more effective role in ukraine, that it shouldn't be completely dismissed, even as the optics of china and russia's relationship speak for themselves. >> well, you know, russia obviously does not have any interest in maintaining the status quo with the global order that's so disproportionately favors the united states and the west and even china. but it seems to me that china does. they've been spending 30 years trying to put themselves in a position where they can dominate, or at least compete against the united states, in the international order. in the end, in the united states and china's best interest to get this relationship back on track? >> reporter: it's in everybody's best interest to get the relationship back on track. we often hear both sides talking

about it being the most important relationship. it's a complicated relationship. but it is a relationship that finds itself, i think, at a new point in history. i think as well increasingly there have been signs, signals, maybe people are just looking for them, that perhaps xi jinping is becoming a bit frustrated with vladimir putin and the inability to put an end to a war that has now dragged on, that threatens stability for china, threatens stability in its position that its trying to craft, and the closeness of the relationship for the lack of a better way to put it is as much about supporting russia as ensuring not necessarily that china wants russia to win, but xi jinping wants to ensure that vladimir putin does not lose. >> all right. nbc's janis mackey frayer live

from beijing, thank you very much for your reporting, and joining us here in washington, we have pulitzer prize-winning editor of -- bob woodward. associate editor of the "washington post" eugene robinson, "washington post" associate editor and pulitzer prize winning journalist jonathan kayhart. and chief foreign affairs correspondent and host of "andrea mitchell reports," andrea mitchell. >> in andrea's defense had she decided to become a writer, she too would have won a pulitzer prize. >> we're confident. >> i don't think so, joe. >> before we go to the big developments out of ukraine, andrea, do you want to chime in about the relationship with russia, given janis mackey frayer's reporting? >> she's dead on. she's so great on this. what we're seeing now and what joe biden saw the last time he saw xi jinping, which was in

bali at the g-20, which is no communication. they met for five hours, and instead of the normal relationship that american observers have noted since henry kissinger where chinese leaders wanted engagement on the economy and now on climate, importantly, there was just ideology. there was just speech-making there xi jinping, and that was very offsetting. the freeze really began with the pelosi trip to taiwan. that's when military to military communications stopped. as janis was eluding to, john kerry told me just before earth day. they had not mad a meeting. and a meeting supposed to be with his very good friend, chinese counterpart, the trip was cancelled. . that's not the cabinet level, important meetings in everyone's interest, globally and important for china and for the u.s., of course, and so not on climate, not on anything.

and it's really offputing and of course the balloon as you point out, joe, that really cut it off. >> well, we're going to get to the big development out of the war in ukraine, and in many ways this is all related. the leader of russia's mercenary wagner group released a statement today saying his forces will be pulling out of the ravaged city of bakhmut next week, coming after the same leader released a video where he berates top russian military figures. he addresses the camera, standing over a field of what appear to be corpses, screaming about a lack of ammunition, and hurling expletives directed at russia's top military general and its defense min stir. >> bob woodward, not a good look. >> no. >> and certainly not what we're used to coming out of putin's russia. are the oligarchs starting to break ranks here?

>> well, there's a lot of overriding uncertainty in all of this. from the reporting i've tried to do on this not only do we see putin's normal paranoia, but he spent the last three years in isolation absolutely worried about covid, has a small circle. and the analysts say this could blow up in any time frame from one decade to tomorrow. no one knows. and this isolation has taken all of the instincts he's got, and magnified them in a very dangerous way but he's still in charge of russia. >> so we had jeffrey goldberg on earlier this week, and ann applebaum from the atlantic, how russia had to come to the

conclusion this war was unwinnable. you say because of putin's isolation during covid that's just not going to happen? >> again, it could happen. there's a lot of uncertainty in this, and i think putin still, unfortunately, the calamity here is he's in charge of russia and he's in charge of the war. he's calling the shots. now, we could, you know, have all of a sudden a breaking news that somehow he's gone or they're pulling out, or -- but putin doesn't want to give up. he thinks he has the leverage here, just like we've been talking about the chinese, the chinese play the long game. putin would like to play the long game, but things could spin out of control instantly. >> bakhmut, that horrible, you

know, tragedy that was happening there, there's a lot of criticism here. i heard a lot of criticism from u.s. officials about the ukrainians' decision to stay and fight in bakhmut, and people were saying they really should pull back, you know, this is very expensive. it looks like the ukrainians were right, actually, their theory was just to stay there and let the russians, the wagner group keep coming into this meat grinder and that they would wear the russians down and it seems like they've done that. >> it does seem like they've done that and also this comes, this tirade in front of a field of corpses from the head of the wagner group who says he's retreating, this comes after we're hearing one ominous report after another from the russian side about how they're going to retreat, they're starting to get people out of towns and villages preparing for a retreat for the coming summer offensive, leaked documents, talking about how

propagandists in russia are being instructed to prepare people for bad news, that it's not going as well. and bob's right, it could last another ten years. it could disappear overnight, this regime. you look what happened in 1989 across central and eastern europe with the communist regimes and what happened on christmas day in 1991, it happened just like that. >> it suggests that to any rational observer for the russians this may be going even worse than we think, you know, our estimate the u.s. estimate is something like 100,000 casualties in the last -- just in the last few months, 20,000 of those killed. >> and, again, somebody pointed out yesterday that's battle of the bulge numbers. >> yes. to any rational observer this is really bad, the question is the question that bob asked, is putin a rational observer? he's the one in charge. and is he approaching this war

on a rational basis or he not? >> jonathan. >> i have a question in terms of -- excuse me, we're so focused on putin and listening to what this oligarch is saying standing over a field of corpses, how much does the sentiment of the russian people play into the calculation that you're talking about because right now we don't hear anything about what the russian people think about all this? >> will they see that? >> the crackdown on communication is so nearly complete. it's almost a blackout in terms of what they can get. see what happens to those, sentenced to 25 years just for saying in one interview the day after he went back to russia, knowing that the invasion had just happened, 25 years for simply saying it is a war, not a special military condition. that was treason. so the crackdown, i mean, there are really brave reporters, correspondents still in there, and working from the outside, a thousand have left, according to the committee to protect

journalists, just in the first year. one hope, and this is getting back to what you were initially talking about, one hope is that this envoy from china, from beijing, who is so close to vladimir putin, got an award, the medal of the russian federation, he was the ambassador there for years, this man -- could this person going to see zelenskyy be the one to say to putin this is the reality, if there's ever going to be a reality check, maybe, and blinken said this to david -- the day before yesterday, that this could be a positive step that china could be persuasive because putin is so isolated. in the long haul as good as this apparent withdrawal from bakhmut is, in the long haul over more than a year europe is going to be nervous by next year, as terms of the border states are being so pulled and others being so courageous. but long haul russia could win this.

they could outlast us in terms of manpower. >> but it's not rational. and again, you have to realize that putin has spent three years with four people. have you ever spent three years with four people? >> actually -- yes. >> i think all of us have. >> we're all sitting right here, actually. >> what does that mean? what are the consequences of that? and andrea's right, i mean, they have -- putin has a clamp on things. now, that could breakin substantiately. but remember what -- here's the card that putin could play, and that is use a tactical nuke. and just as a demonstration. and from that moment history pivots. and in the white house are they worried about that? my god, they're worried about that. >> they're worried about that. but, you know, who else is

worried about that, mody is worried about that in india, and xi is worried about that in china and huge developing countries are worried about that. and again, if vladimir -- if this were russia 1978 they could make other decisions. i hate to keep repeating this fact, but i'm going to repeat the fact. russia has a smaller gdp than the state of texas. you add together the united states and the eu's gdp, more than doubles china's gdp. china has to deal with the west. india has to deal with the west. they are still developing nations. the pressure on vladimir putin to not use tactical nuclear weapons are accelerate this war is -- will come from china, and i think andrea's right, it's actually a good thing. i know that newt gingrich and other people on the trump right are freaking out because the

chinese are talking to the russians, and talking to ukrainians. well, right now they're in the best position to help bring this war to an end. >> no, i think you look at it -- >> china wants this war to end. >> it is a good thing china is in this position potentially to -- well, certainly to talk to putin and potentially to influence him. and i think that's absolutely right. i think there's a lot of pressure from xi in particular on putin not to go nuclear, not to do anything really beyond what he's trying to do now. and to get this.ve >> right. >> because he -- >> we've heard that from xi and mody saying get this -- >> exactly. >> we heard it from erdogan, get this war over. >> you've got the other -- a lot of countries, brazil, and even mexico that are not completely on the rah-rah nato on this. but i think that's important.

putin -- again, it depends on a question that bob keeps asking about putin's rationtiality, and whether he's willing to face facts. still ahead on "morning joe," a first look at joe's exclusive interview with senator john fedderman following the pennsylvania democrat's return to capitol hill after seeking treatment for depression. plus, a new challenge to a 174-year-old abortion ban in wisconsin, is setting up a high-stakes courtroom battle. the state's attorney general joins us ahead, to talk about that fight and the national implications. also this morning, musician ed sheeran wins a consequential copyright infringement lawsuit. what he had to say about the verdict. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back.

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live look at the capitol, a beautiful day in washington. and it is just about half past the hour. so back in february senator john fetterman checked himself into walter reed medical center and for 44 days underwent treatment for clinical depression. he recently returned to work in the senate and yesterday joe spoke with him in what was a candid and emotional interview. >> you've said that your toughest time was after you got elected to the senate, which most people would think, hey, that should have been one of the great moments of his life. but that's when your world started to collapse. can you explain that struggle and explain it to people who may not understand when it's happening to someone they love? >> yeah. no that's what's so insidious about depression. depression, you know, you might

win, and it still feels like you lose. i laid there, i laid there and watched this hurt my own children because they were confused because they thought just because you won why aren't you -- you should be happy. >> men don't seek treatment as much as women. i know that's an issue that's important to you now to getting the message out to men, if you need help get help, don't be too proud. >> i couldn't agree more. you know, like i would beg, you know, i think this isn't about who's tough or who's not, i would just beg men, you know, you're not too macho, it's no big deal, it's like the only person you're really going to hurt more than anyone else is actually your family. >> so many people don't get quality health care treatment. what does the senate, what does the house, what does the president need to do to give more people a fighting chance

with depression, with anxiety, with suicidal ideations is this. >> it's not just your problem, it's all of our challenges, and we should have it because there might be a time where you're going to need the kind of programming, like me, to turn your life around. it's not a democratic issue, isn't republican issue, it's just a human issue. begging people get help if you can. it works. just like i refused to believe that i could get better. >> this is an incredible interview and you're going to hear more from senator john fetterman in joe's exclusive interview, also with media giant tyler perry, and shonda rhimes. plus joe's take on the news of the day a special joe scarborough presents monday night at 8:00 eastern. that interview, you came back

and you were pretty impacted by it. how was he? >> he's determined to stay. he's determined to fight through this. he feels like he owes that to the people of pennsylvania, owes to his children, owes it to his family. i'm going to say the thing that immediate him most emotional, other than his children, was the love that he felt from republicans, and democrats alike. it's the first thing that he talked about, that when he came back everybody came up to him and said we understand what you're going through. we have a child who's going through that. we understand this is a battle, we've been thinking about you, we've been praying for you, we're here to help you any way we can, he said there was no partisanship here. and, you know, bob and andrea, you all were talking about how if somebody got checked in for depression 20 years ago it was

over. go back to '72, as you said thomas eagleton. here we have a man coming up on a year anniversary of a stroke, so disabling for him. he won the election and then knocked down by depression, and he just keeps coming back. and we wouldn't have seen that 20 years ago. >> not even close. and what an advance that i believe on the floor where republicans and democrats said welcome, we care, you're part of the group here, that that was genuine. and we live in a different world in so many ways. this is one of them. >> you know, mental health, it is so critical. and everyone has experienced it in their family. that's what really does communicate that kind of empathy. >> yeah. >> and it reminds me just of how public attitudes have changed on

other things, on gay marriage for instance, just when there were senators and house members who had gay children, and, you know, gay in-laws, that's when at least the political atmosphere in washington changed and it was changing around the country because these are -- this is america, this is life. >> and now post-pandemic, you know, gene, when i was getting ready for this, i looked at the numbers, i knew they were bad. i didn't realize how staggering there were. one in three young american adults suffer from depression, or live with mental health crises, 49% was the number. why don't we just call it half of young americans, adolescent americans have struggled with mental health crises, and of course those numbers just exploded during the pandemic. this is something america is living with, and senator

fetterman was able to go to walter reed. we're all blessed enough that if we or someone we love needs help, they can get help. but for so many americans the treatment, there's such a radical disparity in treatment for people of color, if you look at the numbers. for americans who live in a rural america, there's just not the treatment there either. >> yeah, the numbers on mental health are staggering, and, you know, this is -- to watch senator fetterman, and to watch him come back, i think this is a step, this is an important lesson, i think, and i hope people pay attention because that's kind of the last barrier, one of the last barriers to break. i mean, everybody has experience with mental health, you know, one in two, basically. i mean, people. so someone in your family has had these struggles. medicine has made a lot of

advances in terms of drug treatment and other treatments for various mental health conditions. the last barrier is we just have to deal with it, we have to talk about it, we have to get the kind of treatment and we have to make it available to people widely covered by insurance plans and it we will be a much, much better nation, not just healthier, but better. >> jonathan, i remember one of the most powerful political ads i saw was near the end of john fetterman's campaign, he was struggling speaking, he was struggling communicating, he was struggling listening and being able to process it without an ipad with him. and he gave this extraordinary speech in the rain to a group of pennsylvanians who felt left behind, who felt on the outside, who felt isolated from washington, and he stood up

there and he was talking about representing them. here's a guy, for people who think the fact that he's going through these struggles, and that there are more struggles ahead, that somehow that's going to disconnect him from the people of pennsylvania. >> no way. >> they don't know middle america. i mean, it's a -- this is -- we're moving into new territory here. >> it's not going to be smooth, it's not going to be smooth for him here. >> right. >> it's going to be a battle. but that's a battle, i think, that's going to connect him more with people in his state. >> well, sure. i think, you know, what you're talking about made him a hero, the fact that he stood there before the voters and said what he said, captured it on tape or on film, put it out as an ad to show the rest of the state, but also the country about, yeah, i'm struggling, but i am just like every last person in the commonwealth, and that translates across the nation. i mean, he's a hero for showing vulnerability from a man who just, if you look at him you

wouldn't think that he would have any struggles, that he would check himself into treatment and the response by some people was just cruel. >> yeah. >> to him, especially when he showed up at that first debate and that did not play well for the very reasons that we've been talking about, the statistics, one in two americans has been affected by this. and i think in the end the fact that he was welcomed back so warmly by everyone at the capitol regardless of party says to me i hope that there's a streak of empathy that is returning to that building, and hopefully returning to the american people. we're all struggling with so much. >> right. >> and we need to embrace folks who are struggling. >> it will be interesting, go ahead, andrea. >> just admiring resilience. that's what this is all about. >> sure, and sharing. you know, we'll be following this, and the reaction to his many challenges that he has,

physical as well, and it reminds me a little bit of the conversation about president biden's age. you know, you can make fun of it and you can say things like nikki haley says but a lot of people over 80 vote, and 70, 80, 90, they tend to be a lot of voters and i don't think they like their chances of survival being minimized by, you know, republicans who that's the only thing they've got. with fetterman, it's a real -- >> playing the 80 -- >> exactly, there's that. >> exactly. >> we can only hope. >> we're a of achievers here. with joe biden, it's so funny, it's constantly, he's too old. >> what else? >> you look at his record of achievement over the last two years, you look at the times he's been underestimated. you look at the times where even democrats were saying he had to go, i think about -- >> and, yes, he's old. >> i think about 2022 and how extraordinary democrats did

there. i think about his state of the union address, we're hearing he's too old, delivers a great state of the union address. i think about last year, all of the bipartisan legislation he passed when we heard that old man he doesn't understand, you can't get bipartisan legislation in washington anymore. >> yeah. >> he proved them wrong every time. >> by the way, you can catch the entire exclusive interview with senator john fetterman in joe's primetime special, that's coming up this monday. i will say that when you came back from this interview you were moved. >> yeah. >> really, it took a minute for him to process it all. it was extremely powerful. so we look forward to seeing that. other news now, the republican-controlled north carolina legislature has passed a 12-week abortion ban. lawmakers in the state call the bill a mainstream alternative. democratic governor roy cooper told "the washington post" he will veto the bill but he's going to wait ten days to do so, he wants the public to digest

this very complicated, burdensome legislation that they haven't had a chance to even see. republicans hold a veto-proof majority in both chambers and say they have enough votes to override a veto. meanwhile, in wisconsin, a battle over a 170-year-old abortion law is a playing out in court. >> let's begin, a 170-year-old -- >> 1849. >> -- abortion law that was passed when i think zachary taylor was president of the united states and republicans want women to live under that ban. >> sorry, i'm -- >> parodies of themselves. >> you're looking at me like, what? the state's democratic governor and attorney general are suing to stop the law passed in 1849 from going into effect. it would essentially ban abortion in every case except when the mother's life is at risk.

and you can imagine the conversations that will happen. let's see, she's bleeding out, she's septic. do you think her life is at risk? let's hold a board meeting. i mean, are you kidding me? yesterday, a circuit court judge heard arguments in an attempt to stop that lawsuit from moving forward. wisconsin republicans say the law should take effect in the wake of the supreme court overturning roe v. wade. joining us now wisconsin attorney general josh kaul, we thank you very much for being on the show this morning. what do you plan to do in light of the legislation right now? >> well, thanks for having me. we are challenging the enforceability of that 1849 criminal abortion ban in court right now. we filed suit four days after the supreme court overturned roe versus wade. we knew the statute was on the books and that some people would argue that it should be enforced. but there are a number laws passed after roe v. wade that regulate lawful abortion. we've gone to court to fight to

stop that 1849 ban from effectively eliminating almost all abortions in the state of wisconsin. >> andrea mitchell. >> and general kaul, what is the health care that's available to women in wisconsin? you know, how good is the health care there? and what will be the impact of the supreme court which now, you know, has that one vote majority? >> well, we've been impacted significantly by the overturning of roe v. wade, planned parenthood locations in wisconsin that used to provide abortion care have stopped providing that care. and so as you talked about in the intro here,erer limited to give abortions only in cases when it's necessary to save the life of the mother. like you talked about it's not always clear to doctors when that is. this has put the health of women in wisconsin in serious risk. we've got some people who leave the state to obtain abortion care, but this is also impacting people's lives in a variety of other ways.

there are people concerned about getting pregnant because they don't know what will happen if they do have a complication that would require intervention from a doctor. it's -- i think it's going to impact ob/gyns remaining in the state and coming to the state. that's why we're fighting so hard to overturn this ban so we can restore access to safe and legal abortion. >> mr. attorney general, as you just outlined an extraordinary impact here on the women of wisconsin. tell us a little more about the consequences that doctors could face, what they will be up against, because of this law, and ramifications for their own lives and practices? >> doctors are facing potential felony prosecutions under this law if they perform abortions and a prosecutor decides it doesn't comply with the law. one of the groups of people we've heard a lot from are doctors who talk about how this is interfering with their ability to provide care to their patients. they talked about how if they need to intervene they often have to talk to a lawyer before they can provide the medical procedure that's needed for their parishes.

that's not the kind of medicine we should be practicing and it's not safe for women in wisconsin. >> wisconsin attorney general josh kaul, thank you very much for being on the show this morning, and we will be following this. >> jonathan gabehart, it was not too long ago that republicans in a lot of districts felt like they had the advantage on guns and abortion because democrats were taking positions that seem to be out of the mainstream. that's certainly how it felt on the house floor whenever these issues would come up. it's changed radically over the past several years. now, it really seems like democrats are with middle america on both of those issues. republicans here, in wisconsin, just clueless, they knew a supreme court election was coming up and they kept an 1849 abortion ban on the books when even, you know, "the wall street journal" said they could have changed it, they could have

helped themselves. but these trump republicans are -- their feet are in particular cement. and they just keep losing. >> it seems like since the dobbs decisions republicans in the states have basically said hold my beer. great, abortion has been deemed unconstitutional. so we're just going to go even more extreme. folks should have known since the dobbs -- what we now know as the dobbs decision, the draft of the opinion had leaked and the warning signs that were there about what could happen to roe. then the decision comes out, and i think democrats were like well, thank you for this political gift but they didn't realize how much of a gift that decision was. >> kansas, wisconsin. >> that's where i was going. >> kentucky. >> right, and so republicans who for decades used abortion as this thing to raise money and

get votes, suddenly republicans in the country saw what happened. hold up, no, no, no, no, no, no. this is not what we want. wait a minute. this is -- holy -- well, it's in the morning, i was about to curse. i'm not joe, so i can't. >> no, you shouldn't. >> but i can't believe that republicans are going down this road in all these states despite what happened in kansas, despite what's been happening around the country. >> i know. >> do they not see -- >> read the room. >> right, read the nation. >> you even have the "wall street journal" editorial page and ann coulter saying what's wrong with you people, you are going to lose every election. >> and donald trump, really. >> right. >> he's like, what is like all this going on? >> yeah. >> because they realize that, yeah, this is -- this is a loser right now. >> total. >> for republicans. >> jonathan gabehart, thank you, we will be watching your

coverage on saturdays and sundays at 9:00 a.m. eastern. great to have you on board this morning. and coming up, ukraine wants to launch a major counteroffensive. but first, it says it needs the ammunition, a new investment from europe could help make that happen. the eu ambassador to the united states joins us with more on that effort next on "morning joe."

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the european commission proposed on wednesday to set aside $550 million for member states so they can ramp up production of ammunition for ukraine. joining us now, ambassador to the european union, to the united states, ambassador stavros lambrinidis. very good to have you on the show this morning. >> mr. ambassador, did she get it right? >> she got it right the second time in a row. >> unbelievable. >> not that difficult. >> if you're born brzezinski, you develop a way.

>> and talk about the importance of this initiative that passed yesterday. >> it's huge. look, we provided ukraine with over $15 billion of military aid up to now, but it need ammunition. and neither the u.s. nor we in europe have enough of it, so we have to produce it fast, and we have to deliver it to them fast, so we committed we're going to do this. a million rounds in the next few months, so we're ramping up production in europe and helping our member states buy it. >> we have been talking a lot this morning about what's been happening on the russian side. at the same time, it's been a long, cold, brutal war full of atrocities and everyone wants to see an end as soon as possible. it is huge what happened but what does fast mean in terms of ramping up production and actually getting the ukrainian munitions they need? >> they're planning an offensive now, and they did one before, very effectively pushing back the russians. they're going to do this again. they need ammunition immediately

and they're getting it. they need air defenses and they're getting them. but this will not be over tomorrow, i'm afraid. so long as putin insists in trying to kill them and take over the country, so long as he keeps his troops in, they have to keep fighting back. we have to be standing by them, supporting then. that means much longer than just a few months potentially. we all want peace here. immediately can happen if putin who is the aggressor takes troops out. he doesn't want to do it. if he doesn't want to do it, i cannot imagine the ukrainians fighting for freedom and life will be lifting up their arms and saying, oh, boy, we're getting tired now. take us over. i cannot imagine americans and europeans would be happy to allow that to happen. if we do, putin wins. putin proves that we don't have the guts, we don't have the staying power that all his rhetoric about the west, we're corrupt, we are weak, and if he wins, our capacity to project

our power and influence in the world, americans and europeans for decades to come will be diminished dramatically. he can't win, and the reason is not just us helping ukraine. it's because ukrainians are fighting for their lives and fighting effectively. that's something to be proud of. >> ukraine has been so extraordinarily courageous. are you confident europe facing this another winter if this does drag on and russia as badly as they're doing, they have the manpower, and certainlypute want doesn't care about throwing bodies in the fray, so will europe stand with ukraine in the long term if this drags out? >> oh, yeah. absolutely. for us, it's existential, and you have seen it up to now. putin was counting, betting at least one of our 27 countries would not agree to send troops. fw even one didn't, you wouldn't have sanctions from europe. instead, he's gotting packages of sanctions imposed on him.

americans and europeans together. this is going to continue on our side. putin will not write the end of this story. ukrainians will. with our unwavering support, americans and europeans together, and they will be victorious. you have seen it over and over again. have no doubt, and putin shouldn't. i wish he bets on the europeans being split on this at some point. because he's going to lose. >> a few years ago, 20, ten years ago say, it didn't -- when you talked about europe and its foreign policy, its defense policy, that didn't really mean a lot. does that mean something now, europe as a unit with defense policy, with foreign policy? has this brought europe closer together? >> oh, yeah, absolutely. i think in many ways the war in ukraine has been a wake-up call for everyone. even before that, we knew we had to ramp up our military

capabilities. we started doing this together as europeans, although defense is not a european competence. like your federal assistance here. some things the states keep, some things the federal government keeps. in europe, it belongs to our member states. we have decided the reason we pulled together is we realized no matter how big we are, any european country, we're too small in today's world. the challenges are too big to address them alone. so we are massively investing in defense together, also, that's a great thing for nato. our economy in spite of russia's aggression, has persevered. we have cut off russia's oil and gas from europe, from about a 45% dependence on it to only 5% today in only one year. largely also because of american lng exports. i have to stress and underline this. it has been very important for us to be able to get away from

russia and return our focus on our major allies that we rely on. we also have front loaded massive investments in renewables. in the end of the day, to get rid of russia, not just in europe but in the rest of the world, a russia whose economy as small as it is, it relies on oil and gas, you have to make sure the rest of the world as well unhinges itself from this oil and gas dependency, and that's what we're doing. >> ambassador, if i can ask this question about the united states. do you think we understand the complexity and consequences of this war, from my own reporting, i really think the biden administration, the president, has to make a series of decisions that are the most difficult a president of the united states has faced since

world war ii. i think, and the question is, do we -- i sense a numbness about the war. oh, that's over there. it's not affecting us. what do you think? >> i haven't seen that in the administration or in congress. i speak to many members of congress from both sides. but is there increasing fatigue about a war that is so brutal and so terrible going on for over a year? sure. what i understand from people i talk to is that because your question is do they get it, how do they see it. that everyone understands that even though this is thousands of miles away, there's no safe distance from an autocrat sitting on nuclear weapons who is convinced he can bend the will of our leaders to his own through force. everyone understands if this happens, we lose a capacity to have any influence in the world for decades. and that other countries as

well, china and others, are looking. and they're trying to see where this goes. so i think the stakes are very high, and i'm very grateful to the u.s. for in a bipartisan way standing with europe as we fight this guy. what i always say, if i may, is look, the strength of democracy is not simply the strength of the military, we talk about ammunition and stuff, or the strength of ow economy, and that's huge. it's the strength of our values. we are people who care if 16,000 children have been abducted from ukraine to be indoctrinated in russia. if your hair doesn't get raised by this, you have a problem. 20%, 20% of ukraine's children today are in europe because putin kicked them out. >> but sir, this is not bipartisan. there are republicans who want to cut -- >> not many. >> yes, but it's there's and

it's loud. >> i don't mean to correct you. there are not many. there are back bentures, people trying to get social media hits. kevin mccarthy could not have been any more direct in israel when he said what are you talking about? you kidnapped children, you're committing war crimes, get out of ukraine. that's the house leader, republican senate has stood shoulder to shoulder with ukraine. >> clearly has. but fatigue and that's over there, that's not here in our backyard. and it is and could be and politically and emotionally and if you will morally, it is in our backyard. and i just sense that there is a distance from this. and you really have to face it. we have to face it. no? >> what i can do as ambassador and what i do every day is to

communicate to everyone in this country what it is we as europeans do, because i want to make sure that everyone understands that we're sharing the burden of defeating putin here. and we're sharing a huge part of the burden because of course you cannot defy gravity, geographically, we're next to russia. the economic consequences of the war have hit europe much more, yet $75 billion to date in military support, in economic support, because if the economy of ukraine collapses and putin is praying for that to happen, trying for that to happen, then they lose the war. in humanitarian support and refugee support, there are 4 million ukrainians today in europe that we are providing housing for, schooling for their children, jobs, health care. that doesn't come for free. that is expensive. but we will not allow him, putin, to kill the spirit of the ukrainians at the same time he's

trying to kill their physical being. that is what has allowed the ukrainians to fight back. this is a combination of heroism and unwavering american and european support. >> i want to circle back to something you said. you look at the united states and the european union. you look at their combined gdps. it's just astronomical. it dwarfs china. >> close to 40% of the world gdp is american and european together. >> exactly, you look at what's happened militarily. you look at what poland is doing, the "wall street journal" writing yesterday an editorial about what an extraordinary ally they are, the germans talking about stepping up, spending more money. you look at what's happened across yourm, that's extraordinary as well, but i want to circle back to something you said. i talked about it a couple hours ago, but you just talked about the money is great, the military

power is fearsome, but what connects us? why we are brothers and sisters. when i was in poland a couple weeks ago, had a 97-year-old survivor of auschwitz who said to the entire room there, in warsaw, he said i saw what happened on january 6th. i saw you've pushed them back. and you must understand something. when you push them back, and when you defeated them, you didn't just win. he said i as a holocaust survivor, as an auschwitz survivor, i won. my family won. my country won. europe won. and he gave the same message that you're giving right now, which is money doesn't unite us in the west. military. it's the values. we don't commit war crimes against people by firing

unguided missiles into apartment buildings. we don't kidnap children and take them to other countries. we value human life more than that. and when we make mistakes, our leaders are held accountable. talk one more time because our last president always loved to play europe against his base. talk about the ties that bind and how critical that is moving forward. >> so i was at the reagan library last month in california, launching a holocaust exhibit. it's a beautiful exhibit for anyone who can visit. and i was really pleased by the fact that everyone there speaking about the holocaust and the exhibit mentioned the values that unite us and how they are being trampled upon in ukraine as well. how they were offended, hurt,

scared by putin's rhetoric about the nazi ukrainians and how that trivializes everything in addition to just being a terrible, terrible lie. that did bring home to me one more example of how it is that americans and europeans have grown together over the decades into the real powers of not just economy and military, but i don't want to say good, i don't like the good versus bad thing, but we struggle at times. i used to run human rights for the european union before i got this job in 2019 here. i would travel around the world, and there were leaders at the time, now, that's 2010, so isis was doing well and all these leaders were fighting terrorism. they would tell me, why are you poisoning the well here, talking about human rights? we're fighting terrorists and we throw, you know, people in jail because they protest and you just whine about that, but we

have a bigger thing. i answer that question with another question. okay, you tell me, what's so scary about smart girls? why did nigeria abduct 300 girls from school instead of bombing again? in pakistan, why did the taliban plant a bullet at malala youssefsy's head. in iraq, why did isis abduct and kill so many yazidi girls? what's so scary about smart girls to terrorists? smart girls become educated girls and tend to become empowered women. empowered women chance entirely the balance of power in any society, and the last thing a terrorist wants is empowered societies. they can fill it with their hatred and violence. fw you want to fight terrorists, educate girls and boys. don't tell me that values is soft policy, it is hard core foreign policy, and that's what

unites americans and europeans. >> that was a message hillary clinton brought around the world when she was secretary of state. >> she did. >> that so resonates. i spent a lot of time in afghanistan, with the women in the american university, which laura bush helped create. and that is all being wiped out, the first coed school in kabul. >> the battle over the debt ceiling y think there's a week that the senate and house are going to be together collectively. how it pertains to stability in the world and all of our national security relationships, the fact that we have now politics playing out over our debt. >> and testimony yesterday that it's become a national security issue. >> speaking of powerful women, the head of all 17 intelligence agencies testified yesterday, this is a national security issue that america's standing in the world, the value of the dollar, the whole idea of

american democracy, is really on the line here, aside from trillions of dollars. in 2011, the u.s. lost $1.3 billion by edging close to this crisis just in being downgraded by standard and poor's. it will be just light years worse than that if they go over the cliff. >> just, i share your optimism and your hope. the reality is in the ukraine war, the ugly truth is the aggressor has a stunning advantage. and we find in putin not only willing to start the war but to continue it. and you know, where does this go? i mean, it would be great if it's a triumph of hope and better values. you have an individual who is fighting this war, and russia is

a very big country, which he controls. and let's not delude ourselves that somehow putin is going to withdraw. i think -- >> i don't think anyone is doing that. >> this is not going to end up, you know, we're not going to be on the missouri signing peace documents, but putin will never achieve any of his political gains that he sought out. and it may take a while longer, but our point right now is that europe and the united states are united. >> no question about that. >> including, by the way, in undermining dramatically the russian economy. >> no question about that. you have a leader -- you know, i'm sorry to persist on this. >> you're not persisting. >> i am persisting because i think -- >> you have a leader who's going to be remembered 50 years from

now by his stories making the most catastrophic geopolitical decision in europe. >> for his own country. >> and who as you pointed out, and really, they keep yelling us to go to break, vladimir putin is not only exposed his military and is allowing it to be bled out in a way that will make it ineffect for the next 20 years. he's also done the stupidest economic thing ever. you talked about it, he has forced the europeans to cut themselves off from russian oil. and europe is a more independent, a more powerful continent because of it. >> european union ambassador to the united states, stavros lambrinidis. >> three time ins a row. thank you. >> the debate will continue. >> it will continue. but let's not lose sight of who putin is, what he's done. >> who do you think you're talking to?

hello. >> i agree with you. 50 years we're going to look back. >> we have ambassador makarova on here at noon. >> you're talking to a brzezinski. >> coming up, king charles iii is set to officially be crowned in the uk tomorrow. we'll have the latest from london. plus, new reporting in the supreme court ethics controversy surrounding clarence thomas. >> and a months-long trial surrounding the attack on the capitol, ends in guilty verdicts for members of the far right proud boys organization. "morning joe" will be right back. and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon,

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we're going to talk now about the new reporting on payments to the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas. citing documents it reviewed

"the washington post" reports that conservative judicial activist leonard leo paid ginni thomas tens of thousands of dollars for consulting work, but gave specific instructions that her name be left off the paperwork. according to the post, in january of 2012, leo instructed gop pollster kellyanne conway to bill a nonprofit group he advises and use that money to pay thomas. the same year the nonprofit the judicial education project filed a brief to the supreme court challenging a landmark civil rights law aimed at protecting minority voters. nbc news has not seen the documents or independently confirmed this reporting. in a statement to the post, leo addressed his instructions for the paperwork, writing, quote, knowing how disrespectful, malicious, and gossipy people can be, i have always tried to protect the privacy of justice

thomas and ginni. >> wait, leonard, when you're sending money to -- >> take that in. >> -- to a supreme court justice or a family member of a supreme court justice, it's gossipy for americans to know that money is being funnels and this is a guy who now, what, has $1.5 billion to funnel around? listen, if you're going to say at some point, you know, i have always admired the fact that john roberts is an institutionalist, even when i didn't agree with his rulings on both sides. but i always respected the fact he was an institutionalist, but that label only applies to him for so long. if he allows this to continue in his court without coming out. because at the end of the day, either the supreme court is going to issue a new set of

ethics rules and guidelines or another branch of government are. the united states congress has the power and the authority to do it. and you just wonder if the chief justice is going to keep sitting back and letting all of this information come out, most of it against clarence thomas, that hurts the court. >> this story, i think, has a different character than some of the others, because this is -- i mean, this is a direct payment and an effort to conceal a payment. this isn't about luxury travel, which is bad enough. you know, i mean -- >> trying to conceal a payment, getting instructions, conceal this payment to a justice's wife. >> flies in the face also of these disclosure documents, i didn't understand how to do them, i didn't think i could do them, or whatever the excuse is. now, it appears that there was an effort to make sure things weren't seen. is that fair? >> yeah, and as a reporter, people have known for years or

suspected that supreme court justices were taking trips that weren't disclosed. there was an effort i'm aware of to try to track that, by going to the marshals who protect the justices and trying to get records. but they were unsuccessful. they couldn't penetrate the veil of secrecy, and now good journalists have done that, and i think it's important we're learning all this. >> by the way, we're going to hear bs from the usual defenders of clarence thomas. oh, they're just picking on him because he's a conservative, and they hate black conservatives. this challenges the blah blah blah, all of this other nonsense. if we were reporting on a story this morning that chuck schumer's wife got paid, you know, tens of thousands of dollars and that there had been a direction from the biggest lobbyist in the democratic party to keep the payments quiet, we'd be saying the same thing here today. that is a pure rank nonsense

that the "wall street journal" editorial page, national review, all of these other people have been spewing about how, oh, they're just picking on clarence. no, this is obvious. this is obvious as clarence thomas going through everything he and his wife are going through in the middle of january 6th, and not stepping aside on a case where he became the lone dissenter when he had a real interest in that case itself. it just keeps piling up. >> it does. i mean, assertion after assertion, i want to say fact after fact, but we're still investigating this. trips for thomas, payments for school tuitions for people who are related to him, payments to his wife. you get the sense that thomas and others on the court see themselves as victims. you know, people are out there to get us, and think that they get to live by different rules. >> oh, they definitely live by

different rules. >> by the way, i knew guys, i served with in congress who got a golf trip to ireland paid for by jack abe ram off, and went to jail, went to jail, bob may went to jail for that. there were several others who went to jail. and these guys are whining about how they're victims? no. jonathan lemire, they're not victims. they're on the supreme court of the united states of america. nine of the most powerful people in the world. they just apparently don't think that the rules that apply to members of congress apply to them. and you know who's not happy about that? members of congress. >> yeah, the senate judiciary committee convened just this week to try to get a code of ethics put in place for the supreme court. chief justice roberts declined to attend. those efforts have been utterly

stymied. some reporting about a gift favor given to justice gorsuch. but most of this surrounds justice thomas. the harlan crow reporting from earlier this week, just yesterday, we had propublica report talking about tuition payments for the child the thomases are raising as their son. it's worth spending a moment to emphasis who ginni thomas is. an important figure on the fright years. it was indeed her text messages to mark meadows that were so key. she was urging him in the wake of the 2020 election to keep fighting to overturn the democratic process. we're showing a few of them now here, talking about how media reporters should be arrested and detained for ballot fraud, people should be going to gitmo. >> she said if you go back to the last one, ginni thomas saying that the biden crime family should be on barges,

criminal barges off of gitmo. you're talking about the radicalism and the extremism, which by the way, had an impact on clarence thomas and the way he ruled in a case involving january 6th. >> how can it not? >> biden crime family. this is stuff right off breitbart and the extreme right wing. here she is saying help this great president stand firm. the majority knows biden and the left is attempting the greatest heist of our history. another message she suggests donald trump was divinely inspired to be there to lead the republic. so kate, this is all seemingly linked. also in those messages, she discussed how she discussed all this with her best friend, who is her husband, clarence thomas. tell us about the role she plays and why this is so disturbing that someone so close to a justice, espousing those sort of radical, dangerous views, her husband is receiving, she and

her husband are receiving gifts and payments from some of the most influential people in the right who have business in front of the supreme court. >> right. i mean, it's appalling, frankly. it is appalling. if you look at the role that justice thomas has in deciding some of these cases, if you look at the post story this morning about the leonard leo money, the case that was in front of justice thomas following that payoff, essentially, was shelby, the voting rights act case. so these are -- this influence and this attempt to hide influence is having -- has a massive and real life impact on things that matter to people. we're talking about protecting your right to vote, talking about somebody who sits on the court and makes a decision about whether people who have historically been disenfranchised in this country are going to continue to have access to the ballot box. we should not lose sight of that, too, the underlying case we're talking about this morning

is the voting rights act case. joe, you mentioned bob may. the republicans also lost the house in 2006 in part because of the scandal and because people were paid off. so americans have shown that this is not behavior that they support, when people have the opportunity to vote and to say, you know, this is not what i want from an elected official or obviously someone in the judiciary who is outside of someone on the supreme court is outside of facing political ramifications, but you know, this is part of why people are losing faith in institutions, have lost faith in institutions. it's incredibly damaging. coming up, the mayor of london, sadiq khan, joins the conversation ahead of this weekend's royal coronation. that is just ahead on "morning joe." - elites. now that we've made travel so expensive, we have this hotel to our...selves..?

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all right. >> look at that. rain. whoever would have imagined that in london? silver rain was falling down upon the grounds of londontown. your bbc documentary titled europe's royals revealed explores while the monarchy is well and what king charles can learn from the other royal families. i'm so distracted by the rain. rain at night, king's delight. how does it go? i don't know. >> reporter: something like that. maybe one of the lessons for the documentary should have been they should hold the coronation in the mediterranean where you are going to get sunshine. this is really interesting, what i want to figure out is why monarchy, this ancient tradition is relevant in the 21st century. let's take a quick look. >> it seems there's something about having a king or queen that works rather well.

>> you can't walk past that line. >> then you'll shoot me. >> yeah. >> i think i want to live here. i can't quite believe i'm about to meet the grandson of king zog. >> not too shabby. everything you do that's a first is very much going out of the box that you're put in. >> it's like a gathering of the clan. >> you don't have a throne. however much you play at it, isn't that all it is? it's a sort of a show. i can curtsy and talk at the same time. tell me how you would like me to address you. your highness or princess. i don't mind. >> what does it mean for you then to not have a throne? >> i grew up, i couldn't grow up in my country. >> even in the unlikely form of a self-appointed deposed king with hair flying around. do i look like a princess?

i mean, i clearly do not look like a princess. it's pouring with rain. i had great fun. really it was about what does king charles need to do to make his reign a success. how does he approach the press, how does he deal with the members of the royal family that are a little tricky. you can find it, by the way, on bbc select on amazon prime and apple plus tv. it is an interesting question. why do people still seem to love monarchies? >> i love it. >> katty -- >> this looks great. >> mika has been a skeptic when it comes to the royals. but she's very patient. i, of course, i am in on the crown, you name it, i have always been in on this stuff. it is fascinating, though, looking at charles through the years, sort of tortured relationship within the family and outside the family. saying that he's responded quite well after pingate at the very

beginning. responded quite well. i have been really surprised looking at clips, watching how engaging he is. with people, if somebody has been waiting for him for two or three hours, he'll run up. how are you doing? he'll shake their hands. how long have you been there? they'll say two hours, he'll say, that's too long, for me especially. actually, he's had the right touch in a lot of ways. he and of course william and kate, extremely popular with the british public right now. >> those northern european royals have approval ratings in the 80s, which most politicians would die for. even among young people. and the reason they have it is because they are not seen as aloof, they're not shut behind big walls, because they do interact with their populations. they're called the bicycle monarchies. i think king charles is going to move the british monarchy a little bit more into that model. he's going to make it more

accessible, more at one with the people, to the extent you ever can be if you're a king or a queen. i think he has to. i think in order to survive monarchies have to be more approachable. and that's why their populations will support them. and also, you have to give king charles credit. he was derided for being an environmentalist way before talking about climate change was fashionable or popular or the thing to do. he was kind of mocked for talking, who was on the right side of history, who stuck by his beliefs? it was king charles, who is beyond jill biden, the most senior american in westminster abbey tomorrow, john kerry, the climate czar. he's here because king charles recognizes the work he does and he knows king charles because they have worked on the same subject for years. i think the british public is giving him credit for sticking to his beliefs and being ahead of his time. coming up, former president

donald trump has all but dropped a key word from his vocabulary, republican. nbc's vaughn hillyard has new reporting on how the gop front-runner is retooling his message. that is straight ahead on "morning joe." want to stop lower body pain before it starts? there's a dr. scholl's for that. new dr. scholl's prevent pain insoles are the only ones clinically proven to prevent pain from muscle-induced joint stiffness and strain. so you can stay pain free.

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the united states ambassador to china says the u.s. wants to hold high level talks with beijing in order to forge better communication channels between the two governments. let's bring in nbc news foreign correspondent janis mackey frayer live in beijing. janice, you spoke with the top u.s. diplomat in china this week for an exclusive interview. what did you learn? >> reporter: well, i spoke with u.s. ambassador to china nicholas burns and he told me that the u.s. is ready to talk to china, but it seems that

china isn't very interested in giving any high level access to u.s. officials. that includes a phone call between president biden and china's xi jinping which has been talked about since february, in the fallout of the chinese balloon being shot down. as well, there is no official timeline now to reschedule that canceled visit of secretary of state antony blinken to come here. now, the ambassador made these comments in our short interview. tare among some of the clearest signals yet that this administration is actively trying to restore some level of dialogue with china, and it isn't having much luck. and we're also seeing both publicly and privately some u.s. officials are now beginning to temper their language around china in particular its desire to play a mediating role in the ukraine crisis with the stakes so high with the global economy, taiwan, ukraine, and of course,

russia. here's more of what u.s. ambassador nicholas burns had to say. how problematic is it that china doesn't appear to want to talk to the united states when it seems to be diplomatic business as usual with europe and other countries? >> it's an issue. our instinct as a government is when the times are tough, when you're encountering big problems and big challenges in a bilateral relationship, that's when we should talk to each other. so it's not our choice. we have concerns that our secretary of state has expressed, secretary blinken, about whether or not china is going to provide lethal military assistance to russia for its illegal war in ukraine. >> have you seen evidence of that? >> we have not, but we're watching very carefully. we have a difference of opinion there. we see china essentially supporting russia in this war. we have differences of opinion on taiwan. but we need to have a stable relationship. you can achieve that sometimes, and we hope to in this case, by having high-level cabinet conversations, by having full

access for all of our diplomats here in china, and that's what we're arguing for. >> reporter: arguing for. that's what they're arguing for. and that gives a sense of what the knock-on effect of this current situation is. not only is there no high-level access between u.s. officials but there are no visiting members of congress, there are very few american ceos who are coming here. and the student numbers are staggering. a decade ago, there were 14,000 american students who were studying here in china. today, there are 350. those numbers have been gutted. covid played a role, but politics playing a role too. so far, there's no indication from either side that u.s. officials are going to be welcome in china anytime soon. jonathan. >> hey, janice. to that point, defense secretary austin is trying to have a meeting with his chinese counterpart, no response yet from beijing.

i wanted to ask you, the president of the united states is heading to that part of the world pretty soon, in about two weeks, he's heading to asia. there's the g-7 in japan, also a trip to australia which is largely going to be focused on the alliance there, and efforts to sort of combat china's rising influence in that region. that's going to be a central theme of the president's remarks. there's a concern that as much as the white house and administration is trying to reach out to beijing to talk, that china will take the president's visit to the region as a provocative act and may rein back even further. >> reporter: it's hard to say because at the same time, china has been making overtures to australia to try to repair relations there. it's been years of animosity with the australians, seeing the knock-on effect and everything from australian beef to wine. there does seem to be a bit of a thaw in those relations. but the u.s. finds itself at a particular turning point right

now. even john kerry was saying that he's only hopeful that he's going to be able to come to china to meet with his counterpart on climate. all of those issues that the two sides had agreed to talk about in singapore, there is no progress on any of them, not on climate, not on fentanyl, and certainly not on any of the more meaningful issues. what will be an indicator is how the u.s. messaging or position might change on china playing a mediating role in ukraine. certainly, xi jinping has the leverage with vladimir putin. the u.s. wants to see china try to put an end to the violence in ukraine. the jury is still out on whether that is about to happen, but there is a sense that there might be more to be gained in ukraine from encouraging china to play a role so that because he's able to shake the hand of vladimir putin in public and twist his arm in private. coming up, a live report

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♪♪ that beautiful shot of los angeles as we launch the fourth hour of "morning joe." welcome back, everybody. it's 10 minutes before the top of the hour. time for a look at the morning papers. we begin in florida with reports the state house has passed a bill that bans chinese citizens from owning land in the state. there are exceptions if they hold dual u.s. citizenship. it has sparked protests prompting lawmakers to reply those against it are conspireing

with the chinese communist party. >> sweet jesus, what's going on in florida? now you're banning other countries from purchasing property. yes, it's china, but people said when the japanese took over pebble beach and they bought 30 rock that that was the end of the american century. guess what? we survived it. you know what it's called? a free market, which again, republicans are supposed to support free markets. they're supposed to support reenterprise with disney. this is about as overarching big government, socialist government as i've seen. >> why has this economy in this country managed to stay on top for so long? obviously, you know, openness is

obviously the reason. our openness to immigration, our openness to all kinds of free trade. obviously you can talk about restrictions and fair practices and all that, and we should, but clearly to say that people from this country can no longer buy property in our state is just stupid. >> it's funny, jonathan lemire. they didn't complain, these republicans, when russian oligarchs grossly overpaid donald trump for his property in palm beach. curious. >> you are right. there were no howls of complaint when that happened. it's connected for obviously the state of florida. joe, you know so well this comes as governor desantis is ramping up his war on disney still. in fact, his board he has

appointed to lead was just given more power. he has been warned by so many within the republican party that this goes against what they should be standing for. disney is the most popular and powerful industry in the state. he is still doubling down. >> not only that, but he's doubling down against bob iger. you know, as far as intellectual wattage goes, bob iger against ron desantis is like mike tyson in 1991 against the princeton boxing champ in 1957. it's just not a fair fight. he's not going to beat bob iger, and everybody knows that. the question is, why does he keep taking on mickey mouse when mickey mouse is sporting brass knuckles? he can't win. >> he can't win. whether it's stubbornness or

conviction that he is scoring some sort of culture war points on this wedge issue, but he's speaking to a smaller and smaller audience. the florida legislature ends today. not that he stayed in tallahassee for it as he trotted around the globe for the last month. in illinois the beacon news leads with lawmakers' push to punish public schools and libraries that ban books. legislators sent a bill to the governor's desk that would cut state grants to libraries that remove books and materials for partisan reasons. >> so we have states actually against banning books. >> it comes as many parents have advocated to ban books with sexual content.

have you seen the internet? the herald sun has a feature on north carolina ranking among the worst in the country for starting teacher salaries. the state came in at 46th place. north carolina teachers start off making about $37,000 a year. as far as overall teacher pay, north carolina ranked 36th in the country with the average educator making more than $56,000. and finally, maine is looking at mandating nurse-to-patient ratios. lawmakers held a hearing to discuss the issue. they're looking to alleviate staffing shortages and force hospitals to hire more nurses. supporters say requiring one nurse for every two patients will help workers who are stretched thin. new developments this morning in the case of four murdered idaho college students.

new police body cam footage was released overnight showing the moment officers searched the suspect killer's apartment. nbc news correspondent erin mcloughlin has the story. >> reporter: newly released body cam video showing officers at bryan kohberger's apartment. earlier that same night on the other side of the country, kohberger was arrested at his family home in pennsylvania, according to police documents. different parts of kohberger's washington state apartment tested positive for blood, including a mattress cover on the bed described as having a brown, irregular drip. there were also two separate stains on an uncased pillow on the south side of the bed. according to the documents, one

had traces of blood. what's not clear is who that blood belonged to. authorities previously revealing a laundry list of items taken from the apartment that night, including a black glove, multiple air strands and possible animal haircuttings, police also seizing electronic devices. kohberger was arrested and charged for the murders of four students at the university of idaho. a month before the murders, kohberger was involved in a traffic stop on the campus of washington state university where he was a graduate student. body camera video of that run-in also released overnight. >> i think you know why i stopped you. you ran the red light. >> i was stuck in the middle oh of the intersection. >> i was behind you the whole time. >> the video shows a distressed kohberger in the same car seized from his family's home.

he was blocking an intersection and ran a red light. >> what would the appropriate thing for me to have done? >> reporter: he was eventually let go with a warning. >> never occurred to me that was actually something wrong. >> wow. six months later, questions still surround that tragic ig night. tomorrow airmail will have the latest piece in a series examining the idaho murder case. joining us now is coeditor alessandra stanley. >> it explains that even things like bloodstains that we think will convict him explains how difficult it is to actually prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. what he does, which is

astonishing is he -- so many people, not just the policemen, not just the fbi, there were so many people that had to be involved in this. it includes a kayaker on the snake river. it's a billionaire capitalist. it's a husband and wife team. it's, believe it or not, a white supremacist. for want of a nail, it's the opposite. all these people working separately but in conjunction brought evidence that, i think, at least the lawyers believe will be incontrovertible. the murder is so tragic and so awful, but there's at least some comfort in seeing how hard people are working to solve it and put him away, the alleged killer. >> let's turn to some of the other items in this week's

airmail. what about jackie kennedy? she wanted to be a capitol hill reporter. tell us what you discovered in terms of what she did in terms of a newspaper column and how she helped her future husband with his research. >> she did his homework. this was all news to me. carl anthony has written a new book about jackie before jack. i had not realized how seriously she had wanted to be a writer so that she had this dinky insipid column that she turned into something that was read by everybody. when she met the senator, the thing i found extraordinary is she wrote an 88-page thesis on vietnam uing french sources.

that was just to help him prepare for his first speech in the senate. she was much more involved and intellectually curious than i realized. >> you also said that at the end of that report, she wrote a note with a cheeky dare to her future husband and the future president. >> yes. she basically dared him to say that vietnam should go to the communists, you know, the chinese communists because they at least really knew how to take care of a place, unlike the french, who at the time seemed very bad colonialists. >> it's interesting, on the front page of the "new york times" today there is a story that talks about turkey's

ruinous mix of greed and corruption. this is a country that is still reeling from a massive earthquake and greed and corruption. airmail takes us even deeper into the upcoming presidential election and talks about how the stakes have never been higher in this election in turkey. talk about it. >> well, this is actually a very personal story by a wonderful photo editor at airmail. she was there for the earthquake. she lives here, but her family is there. so this is her description of what it's like to be turkish now, whether you're in exile or there and the sense of horrible things keep happening. it's not just an earthquake. it's a coup, it's the way the government has clamped down on

everything that you could possibly want to do, including what you read. what's troubling is there's no sense that this election, even if erdogan loses, that that kind of difficulty will change. the other part is there's another earthquake expected in 2024. it's just a very personal, very touching look at a woman who loves her country, but feels like she can't live there because it's gotten so bad. >> the new issue of airmail goes online tomorrow at 6:00 a.m. eastern time. for more on this week's stories go to airmail.news/mj. thank you for being with us. talking about turkey, it's extraordinary. back in 2006-2007 dr. brzezinski

was talking about critical it is to the future not only of europe, but to the middle east. since that time, you look at what erdogan has done to that country. it is more corrupt, more backward, more dangerous than ever before. >> yet it's still a really important country. in this case, geography is destiny. it's the cross roads of the old world and turkey is still blocking sweden's admission to nato, for example, you know, one of erdogan's contributions that's not very helpful. >> people are asking, why is turkey still a nato country? more arrested journalists there than anywhere else in the world. it is an autocratic state. >> there was a time when turkey not only behaved completely like a nato country, but was really

eager to enter the european union and wanted to become more european. now turkey is just being erdogan basically, a fiefdom. >> if erdogan does lose, we'll see if they can move beyond this break period. we're following a major development in the government's ongoing prosecution of those who stormed the capitol on january 6th. among them, members of the right wing proud boys group were convicted yesterday of seditious conspiracy. >> we just stormed the [ bleep ] capitol, took the [ bleep ] place. so much fun. >> so much america. so much america. >> january 6th will be a day in infamy. >> yeah, it is for you.

the man in front center of that video is now facing years in prison. here's attorney general merrick garland yesterday. >> the evidence presented at trial detailed the extent of the violence at the capitol on january 6th and the central role these defendants played in setting into motion the unlawful events of that day. today's verdict makes clear that the justice department will do everything in its power to defend the american people and american democracy. the justice department will never stop working to defend the democracy to which all americans are entitled. >> former militia chairman enrique tarrio and others face up to 40 years in prison for that charge. dominick pezzola was found

guilty of assaulting certain officers. prosecutors said the militia members were looking for violence on that day and were willing to stop the certification of the election by, quote, any means necessary, including by force. the defense argued that the justice department was using the men as scapegoats and should really be targeting former president trump. multiple other militia group members, leaders of the oath keepers have been found guilty of seditious conspiracy themselves. let's bring in david drucker and maria theresa kumar. >> it's interesting that the attorney general has been blasted by progressives for a year and a half now for being too slow, for dragging his feet, for not bringing a lot of these

january 6th defendants to justice. it seems, though, justice allayed is not justice denied. he's been successful doing something that's rarely done. that is getting convictions for seditious conspiracy. >> he gets hit from the right for bringing cases against people that supposedly don't deserve to have cases brought against them. the left wanted to see a much more active both rhetorically as well as whatever law enforcement actions he would take, a much more active attorney general. they wanted to see a populist pronouncing people guilty before they had gone through the system. merrick garland is very moderate in temperament. he likes to let the process play out. i'm sure there's a political bone in his body plenty. he's the attorney general of the united states, he's a political appointee. he's also a judge and a lawyer.

i think he understands from the perspective of you have these defendants, charges have been brought against them, and if you believe they're guilty and you want them to be convicted, the worst thing an elected official could do is prejudice the case and try and hurry things along before they move through the system. >> he spent all those years as a judge. that just keeps coming back to me, because he does not do this lightly. he does not charge people with seditious conspiracy lightly. >> right. you've covered republican politics a bit over the past five or six years. again, so much of what i talk about here is anecdotal, what i hear from my republican friends, republican relatives who have stayed with trump through thick and thin. it seems to me with every one of these convictions, it seems with every bit of news that comes out january 6th, i see one after

another after another peeling off. i bring this up because we said on the set in 2016 that donald trump could have won the republican nomination, because what we were hearing from all of my family and all of my relatives. there seems to be a disconnect. washington is talking about trump getting his arms around the republican party again and everybody lining up and everybody ready for him to go. i've got to tell you i'm hearing just the opposite from the people. i have to underline this, not whining, i'm good, i'm hearing this from the same people that told me they were voting for a man who accused me of murder 12 times and said i should be arrested, thrown in jail and executed. they stood by him through thick and thin. now they're starting to peel

off. i'm not seeing news reports in washington, d.c. what are you hearing from republicans you talk to? >> i think republicans are trying to figure out whether this is 2016 all over again and they don't want to get caught flat footed. when we look at the polling in 2015 into 2016, donald trump was leading in virtually every national poll and most state polls, including in iowa where he ended up losing in the caucuses. republicans, particularly republican insiders, kept saying, well, it's early. well, eventually people will get serious and figure out he's not a nice guy. of course, none of those things happened and voters had a different view of donald trump. people in washington, all of us collectively, don't want that to happen again. when you look at polling and he

jumps out in front so quickly, despite indictments, despite january 6th and they see how he jumps out to such a big lead, they say to themselves, oh, i've seen this before and you're not going to fool me again. >> i think to answer your question is this different, i think donald trump does really well at normalizing things that are absolutely abhorrent. you start to normalize the fact that he was indicted. you start to normalize the fact that some believe he started an insurrection against our

democracy. you start to normalize everything he has done to push back against constitutional norms by bringing him back in without stopping right there on the facts and not budging. you know what this whole thing is over if we can't agree on this truth, because we're not going to sit here and let you do this to our country, spew lies and disinformation without agreeing on the facts. we got to start there. >> just one correction. i never correct you, mika. >> go ahead. >> i will just say you've said that some people say he started an insurrection. he started an insurrection. he led an insurrection to try to overthrow an elected president. >> how do you get beyond that?

>> what you're touching on is so important. the fact that msnbc decided not to air in totality when he declared for presidency most recently, that was the right thing to do. if you listen to him for the first ten minutes, it was all lies and cnn did not interject right away. if you're the average viewer and you only have five minutes to tune in and you walk away with someone not correcting it, it's a problem. we talk to a lot of voters. we need to understand independent and moderate republicans to really understand the pulse of america. like you, joe, i believe that in this moment most people would not vote for him. the challenge is we have headwinds coming our way that we are not ready for. we are not ready for the massive a.i. deep fakes. how do you counter that? we are not ready for the recession that may be. when voters say i have to pay $7 for butter and donald trump, i

remember he gave me a relief check that he signed, that is going to be really hard. so we're going to have to prepare as the media the american people for those deep fakes so they understand how to detect them. conversely, how does biden prepare the american people for what play be a very difficult economic moment we're about to face. >> great point. >> they doubted him before iowa. they doubted him before new hampshire. they said his candidacy was over. then he was elected. they doubted his ability to get bipartisan legislation. progressives openly mocked him, said he was an old fool for believing he could work with republicans. he passed one piece of key bipartisan legislation after another. they said there was going to be a giant red wave because joe biden was too old and too out of touch. shocking results in the midterm

election. he did better than any president since 1934 in their first midterm election. he said even after that, he was too old, he was out of it. then he delivered a state of the union address. everybody said, wow, okay. so we're back to joe biden is too old and we need to find somebody else. i hear it. mika hears it. we hear it every day. the doubts just keep surrounding a guy who has constantly been underestimated his entire political career. >> president biden's favorite catch phrase is don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative. certainly we're at a moment now where doubts are starting to creep back in again. we do it hear it from nervous democrats. title 42 expires next week. they're expecting real chaos at

the border. debt ceiling talks going nowhere right now. there's a concern there what happens next even if the white house is fairly confident the republicans will take most of the blame, but not all. then concerns about ongoing support for ukraine. the list goes on and on and some economic warning signs as well. they still feel like they've made a strong case. they point to his legislative record and they point to the chaos on the republican side. they feel like trump, who's already under one indictment, could easily face more in the months ahead. yes, there's worry in the biden white house about what might happen withhunter biden. we heard joe say he thought one of washington's favorite pastimes is underestimating him and the vice president. he feels like that's happening again and they'll be just fine.

>> we have vaughn hilliard with new reporting on a keyword that donald trump is seemingly eliminated from his campaign rhetoric. what are you hearing? >> good morning. look, donald trump, i've been traveling with him these last several months. there's a notable word we have seen dropped from his vocabulary. that's the word republican. when you look at polling numbers, you see him 30 points ahead of ron desantis. this harkens back to the campaign strategy of this current operation. john allen, our colleague, and myself had multiple conversations with advisors and allies about their strategy. they are looking to revert this back to a 2016 campaign, one separate from the republican party. of course, donald trump has suggested he may not sign a

loyalty pledge later on this year, meaning, there's other republican candidates in this race who he could see himself not supporting if they were to win the nomination. he has suggested he may skip the first republican debate. the times you do hear donald trump out on the campaign trail talk about the republican party, it's in a disparaging way largely. when he's talking about ron desantis, he called him an establishment paul ryan republican. we had conversations with steve bannon in this piece, who says what has the republican party done for him over the last two years? to what extent have they defended him? it's time for him to break away. charlie kirk, a right wing provocateur who has a major radio and tv program speaking to grassroots conservatives, he made the case they need to build up a true opposition party and that relying on the republican party in 2024 is not going to be good enough for them. they need to build a movement,

one that really creates an opposition movement. i had a conversation with one advisor who told me they need to look big picture. they said they need to build a broader electorate. one-third of the american population over the age of 18 did not vote in the 2020 election. so, yes, donald trump faces some headwinds. you, joe, have had conversations with people who are moving away from him, but there is a reckoning inside this campaign that they need to build something greater outside of this and they believe moving away from the republican party is their best opportunity to do so. >> i know a lot of elected republicans here in washington who would love to stop saying the name donald trump and divorce him as well. they just wish he wouldn't take their voters with him. that's the problem.

what's the balance between grievance on the one hand and i alone can fix it on the other hand? so what extent is it all about the election was stolen from me, they're unfair to me, versus here's what i can do for you? >> it's at the heart of i am fighting on behalf of your grievances because i have my own grievances. look at his poll numbers since his arrest in new york. that is where they believe they can make the case around the country that whether it is this idea of what they're teaching in schools or whether it is an overbearing justice system or whether it's in the case of taxpayer money going to global efforts as opposed to ones hitting in the hearts of communities here in network.

they intend to make this campaign about the biden administration, in their words, big government efforts that are distractions from the issues that matter to folks at home. that is where now you see him after 2020 making the case he was going to take the republican party forward with a united front. in 2022 he did the best he could to expunge the republican party of voices like liz cheney and adam kinzinger and tom rice. now he feels like this is an opportunity to fight on behalf of himself. americans for prosperity, club for growth. they have actively said they are going to work against them. this for donald trump now is about himself. they believe running that 2016 campaign that said to hell with the republican party is their best way forward when they're looking at the poll numbers right now. >> vaughn hillyard, thank you so much for your reporting.

greatly appreciate it. we know club for growth and all these other organizations just like last time will be against donald trump until they are for donald trump. >> so predictable. >> i want to go back to that famous fox news debate. meghan kelly was on. the question was asked would anybody run as an independent if they didn't get the nomination and trump was the only one who wouldn't say, no, i will not run as an independent. this reporting suggests donald trump's getting ready to run as an independent. he either gets the nomination or he runs against the republican who gets the nomination as an independent. >> a couple of strategic points on this. when you talk to republican strategists about the republican base, they will tell me that a

lot of people underestimate the extent to which a grassroots republican does not like the political establishment, in particular the republican party. so running against the republican party, while it may look and be an attempt to present himself as the incumbent who's already moved onto the race against joe biden, is strategically a good way to sew up the republican primary, because having negative things to say or suggesting the party is falling short is a message that can work. second of all, though, to the extent that the former president may choose to run as an independent or sink the nominee if it's not him and we need to see how this race unfolds once a few more candidates get in, see a couple of debates, see if they are willing to punch him in the mouth, to the extent he's

willing to do that, i wonder if republicans should worry less about it. because if you look at everything since 2016, which was the kind of victory they had been looking for for a long time, at least in the electoral college, and you look past the fact in 2020 donald trump improved his margins with nonwhite voters, they lost the national election in 2018, they disappoint in 2020 and 2022. it's been a slow bleed. if he wants to blow it all up in 2024 because he's not the nominee, get it over with, so you can start fresh in 2026. i don't know what you're waiting for or what you're afraid of at that point. lawyers for both e. jean carroll and donald trump have rested their cases in the civil trial against the former president. carroll is suing trump for battery and defamation. she alleges that he raped her at

a new york city department store back in the '90s and then lied about it. trump denies the allegation. yesterday jurors heard more of his video deposition he gave last october. trump is seen mistaking the writer for his wife at the time, marla maples. >> didn't he say that carroll wasn't his type? >> he was also heard calling carroll, quote, a whack job, a nutjob and sick. trump then goes on to further deny the allegations saying it's a made-up story. trump defended his notorious boast that in 2005 "access hollywood" recording about grabbing women's genitals. earlier this week trump's lawyers said he would not be a witness and they rested their case yesterday. but the judge decided to give

trump until 5:00 p.m. on sunday to change his mind about testifying after hearing the former president tell reporters in ireland he'll probably attend the trial. >> it's a disgrace that it's allowed to happen false accusations against a rich guy or, in my case, against a famous, rich and political person that's leading the polls by 40 points and i have to go back for a woman that made a false accusation about me and have a judge who's extremely hostile and i'm going to go back and confront this woman who's a disgrace and it shouldn't be allowed to happen in our country. >> if trump does go testify, the trial will move to closing arguments on monday. >> your thoughts? >> we keep giving him air time, but the fact he is thinking to go back to trial, that is any

attorney's worst nightmare for a client. the last thing you want is a headline that a candidate for president is actually being accused of rape. if i were his attorney i'd say don't do it, but he can't help himself. this side of trump, the one that is not in front of the tell tell prompter, which is what is going to destroy him. the he started technically the offshoot of the progressive wing. maybe that's what we're going to see. i think the challenge of whether or not the republicans stay and don't bifurcate and have a viable option as a continued party in their current form is whether or not he as a third-party candidate can ensure he doesn't have the money to

run. the american people will decide whether or not he gets enough money. if he has enough money, then we're in real trouble. king charles iii will officially be crowned the king of the united kingdom tomorrow after serving as the longest heir apparent in the country's history. charles' wife camilla will also be officially crowned queen camilla at the ceremony. it is scheduled to start at 5:00 p.m. eastern when charles begin the procession from buckingham palace to westminster abbey in london. joining us, the mayor of london sadiq khan. >> we know this only happens every 70 years or so, but let's talk about something even more important than the coronation

tomorrow. that is the fact that liverpool has five wins under their belt, manchester united lost yesterday, liverpool won the day before. we are on a run. can we make the top four? >> we've got to talk about something really important, which is the team both joe and i love had an awful season. we've won five in a row. saturday's important home game, of course i'll be at the coronation, but i'll be a bit distracted, because if we win again tomorrow, that's six games. brighton beat man united. the grasp is there. the question is, is the reach there. six games to go, let's see. >> stay focused. coronation, coronation. >> we just showed the tables there with liverpool. thank you for our crack staff

for doing that. so let's move onto less important news. mika and i were actually at the queen's funeral. we both commented how remarkable london was, a post modern society. it really was. london just showed its best to the world. i'm sure you're hoping the same thing happens tomorrow. tell us what we might see. >> we spent the last weeks getting ready for the most important day in our nation's history in decades. we have a monarch in many people's eyes old fashioned, but he's going to celebrate the diversity of our great country. he is said to be the defender of the faith, but he's going to show himself to be the defender of fates. so we have a prime minister who is a hindu. we have, of course, myself a

proud british person of islamic faith. and now the king, a proud christian. you have pomp and pageantry you've never seen before. but also a solemn religious ceremony as well. the great news is the first lady is now in town and we've got guests from around the world, the first lady, prime ministers, presidents, members of the royal family from across the globe seeing the best of our city. our job tomorrow is to make sure we put on the best show possible for our king, our future queen, but also for you watching on tv. >> we've always taken great pride in america being the melting pot, yet yesterday more white nationalists who tried to overthrow the government found

guilty of seditious conspiracy. i was stunned when i went to london. i saw a country that the queen took over as an ancient empire. she passed along as a post modern extraordinarily diverse country and city. when i was interviewing bill clinton last week and tony blair about the good friday agreement, they said look at the prime minister of great britain, look at the prime minister of india, look at the mayor of london and look how extraordinarily diverse these countries have become. it really is something that britain has done something that america's been struggling with for some time. >> the u.k. has certainly become more diverse, the leadership has become more diverse. london stands out because london is an incredible diverse city, more diverse than the rest of the u.k.

i do have a question for mayor kahn. so it will fall to king charles to sort of define the role of monarchy in the 21st century. so this coronation will not be quite as lavish and over the top as the last one 70 years ago. but there will still be the golden carriage. there will still be a lot of pomp and circumstance and finery and crowns and everything. has he dialled it back enough, do you think? and will the monarchy, in fact, dial itself back a bit more in order to remain relevant? >> you raise a really profound point, which is how a monarch evolves as circumstances change.

i've had the privilege of spending a lot of time with king charles. he understands that many families are struggling. he understands inflation is at record levels. he's tried to have the pomp and pageantry, but respect. he's dialled it down a bit. but we love the pageantry and the pomp and the fact there's going to be a ceremonial procession leaving buckingham palace going to westminster abbey. the royal family will be on the balcony of buckingham palace. there will be a flyover. also he's not gone over the top like he could have done. his mother was very similar. his mother took over shortly after we had rationing after world war ii. the one thing about our former queen and our current king is they get it. they understand the rhythm and

pulse of our citizens, their subjects. >> sadiq khan, thank you very much for coming on this morning. we'll be watching tomorrow. thank you. best of luck. and coming up on "morning joe," a legal win for ed sheer han. plus steve kornacki will be live from louisville to break down the odds for tomorrow's kentucky derby. tomorrow's kentucky derby. - why are these so bad? - if i would've used kayak to book our car, we could have saved on our trip instead of during our trip. ughh - kayak. search one and done.

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now to an important legal ruling for the music industry. ed sheeran was found not liable in a trial that claimed he stole components of marvin gaye's "lets get it on" for "thinking out loud". >> i'm just a guy with a guitar

who loves writing music for people to enjoy. >> that guy, international pop star ed sheeran, is celebrating a victory from a new york city court. >> looks like i'm not going to have to retire from my day job. i'm unbelievable frustrated that baseless claims like this go to court at all. >> he was found not liable in a copyright infringement lawsuit for wrongfully using the identical harmonic rhythm as a marvin gaye song. sheeran defended his song as an original he co-wrote after his grandfather's death, even going through his musical process, singing and playing guitar on the stand. >> you're comparing music. it was very cool hearing him.

>> the suit was brought by the family of "let's get it on" cowriter ed townsend. coming up, our next guest says country music can lead america out of its obsession with guns. the front man for old crow medicine show joins us to explain how. and the world health organization has just downgraded the covid-19 pandemic, saying it is no longer a global emergency. in april president biden signed a bipartisan congressional resolution to end the national emergency that gave the government sweeping power to respond to the virus. ond to thes i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant...

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♪♪ ♪♪ ♪ this time i don't agree ♪

♪ more than an american child should live in sweet harmony ♪ ♪♪ ♪ it's the voice rising up saying it's about time ♪ that's a new song by old crow medicine show. the song entitled "louder than guns" was recorded in the aftermath of the mass shooting at a school in nashville in march and released in partnership with the bipartisan gun safety organization 97%. and the front man and founding member of the grammy-winning group joins us now. thank you for being on. tell us how you think country music can be part of the solution here. >> thank you, mika. thanks, joe. we are uniquely poised here in nashlg as the nashville as a

city where the civil rights movement got its start. this is the head water. this is the proving ground for civil disobedience. this is the place where folks game and gathered in the '60s to make sure they could walk into a woolworth's store and be fairly treated. it's the same place we can stand up for our kids and make sure they can go to school safely. >> we've talked to other country music artists who have said so many people in the music industry there will say things off camera and will be on your side off camera, but they are scared of the fans, scared of the backlash and they won't step forward even when it comes to protecting the lives of young children. what's your message to them? >> well, this is a time for us all to stand up as nashville people. when the show is over, we're in

the pickup line on a monday morning. we are parents very involved with our kids here in the country music business. that's what we're talking about. the messaging is less about guns and which guns, and instead it's about our kids and our kids being safe in school and in public spaces. >> so what kind of impact is this having in the state? there have been a lot of hard line pro gun legislation and rhetoric. it looks really tough. >> it's a big challenge to see our community come together. se together. however, i am privy to the unique opportunity as a musician to see my front row look like the very groups that need to come together to make this change. i see the hiphippies, and i seee

rednecks, and they're all right in front of me, and they're all singing along to our music at the same time, so you know, i think that a lot of country music audiences look this way too. you know, willie nelson did such a great job uniting the tribes. if we could see that kind of union, i think that we could elevate our kids in ways that we haven't seen before and in the wake of the shooting at covenant, we need to see now. >> so ketch, you just spoke about how some of your audience is responding. have you received some pushback from others who don't want to hear you talk about guns? if so, what's your message to them? what is your message to those who have doubts about what you're trying to say? >> well, i think you've got to listen to everybody. this is a stalemate, and i'm much less interested in the stalemate and why as i am in making sure that, you know, on any given friday morning i can take my kids to school with the wherewithal that they're going to be safe. that friday night i can take them to the movies and that will

be okay too or the mall or the swimming pool or the grocery store, anywhere that i could go in nashville. you know, when these rampage style violent acts come to your community, it changes everything because suddenly it's your kids who are in the cross hairs. you know, this is -- it's been 40 days since the shooting in nashville, and i'm not giving up. i'm here on behalf of nashville parents, and i'm here with the blueprint for what country musicians can do who choose to stand up. >> i love it. ketch secor, band is old crow medicine show. thank you very much for being object show this morning. we appreciate your message and your music. >> thank you so much, ketch. >> thanks. coming up, steve kornacki is standing by at churchill downs ahead of tomorrow's kentucky derby. he joins us live from

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. churchill downs is investigating the death of four horses that occurred this week ahead of tomorrow's kentucky derby. the causes of two of the fatalities remain a mystery with the trainer of those two horses saffie joseph now suspended. as for tomorrow's big race, joining us now with a preview of the 149th running for the roses, live from the finish line is nbc's steve kornacki. steve, you're a lucky guy. >> set it up for us, steve. >> reporter: i tell you, it has been a news-filled 24 hours here when it comes to this running of the kentucky derby. you mentioned it, yesterday alone we saw three horses from the field scratch. you mentioned lord miles, all the controversy there. the practical move who had won

the santa anita derby, one of the highest regarded horses out of this race. continueuar, one of the horses from japan out of this race. three new horses drew in to replace them just yesterday including another japanese horse named mandarin hero, who had run a very impressive race in the santa anita derby here in the united states a few weeks ago, could be a very interesting wild card, and now within the last two minutes just announced over the public address system here at churchill downs another scratch. we've now had four scratches in the last 24 hours. the horse's name this time is skinner, the horse skinner spiked a temperature this morning and is not going to run in the kentucky derby. so believe it or not, at the start of the week, we had 20 horses in the field. we had three horses on the waiting list. all three horses from the waiting list are now in the

field and we're only going to have at this point, 19 running. it has been a chaotic 24 hours here, and i think it threatens to when we start to see some real odds tomorrow creaing some interesting situations in terms of the betting odds and how the money is spread around. >> who should we be looking at out of this big field? >> so the favorite right now, forte, todd fletcher's horse. fletcher's won this race twice before. he remains in the race. he had a little bit of an incident in the workout yesterday, but keeping a close eye on him. the second choice also figures to be a todd fletcher trained horse, his name is tapit trice. the last time the trainer had first and second in this race, it was bob baf fete. the other story line, the japanese horses i mentioned, internationally in some major

races, horses from japan have been staging dramatic unexpected breakthroughs in the last few years. the one nut they haven't been able to crack has been this race, the kentucky derby. i mentioned mandarin hero who's now going to be in the race. there's a second one named derma sodagake is going to be in this race, probably going to be one of the top five choices betting wise. ran in the united arab emirates derby to get in this race. put up an unbelievable time. keep an eye on those japanese horses. >> steve kornacki, thank you, enjoy. and you can watch the 149th running of the kentucky derby tomorrow on nbc, the network's full coverage begins at noon eastern, and is also available on nbcsports.com, the nbc sports app, and peacock. so we'll be tuning in. >> yes, whet