do your homework even faster. come again. -sorry, what was that? introducing the next generation 10g network only from xfinity. the future starts now. good to be with you, i'm katy tur. donald trump is not testifying in his civil rape trial but we are hearing directly from the

former president. his video deposition taken under oath is now public. e. jean carroll's lawyers presented it for the jury and it included a portion where the access hollywood tape is played and donald trump is asked about it. >> in this video i just start kissing them. it's like a magnet. just kiss. i don't even wait. when you're a star they let you do it. you can do anything. grab them by the [ bleep ] you can do anything. >> historically that's true are stars. >> it's true with stars that you can grab women by the. [ bleep ] >> if you look over the last million years, that's been largely true, not always, but largely true. unfortunately. or fortunately. >> and you consider yourself to be a star? >> i think you can say that, yeah. >> both legal teams have rested their cases, and the judge has given donald trump the weekend

to reconsider whether he wants to appear in his defense. joining me now is nbc news correspondent ron allen who has been following the trial with us. also with us is nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett and nbc news legal analyst, danny devalue los. -- danny cevallos. >> he said he was doing it in the interest of justice. he was well aware of the comments the former president made on the golf course that he was going to come and testify. the fact of the matter is mr. trump's attorneys in court said he's not going to testify and there's no indication today there's any change or movement on that. the jury as you pointed out has seen mr. trump testify in this deposition. we had only see transcripts of it. today we saw the actual video footage. it is very powerful, and i would think, i'm not a lawyer, but i would think the bottom line is

that ms. carroll's attorneys are very glad that that's what the jury is going to see of mr. trump. he insults ms. carroll, he calls her a whack job, sick, a nut job. he even attacks and is disparaging of the attorney, the female attorney who was questioning him saying that you wouldn't be on my list either in the context of someone of who he would want to be involved with, put it that way. >> i know you're putting it diplomatically. >> it's very raw, it's very graphic. it's, you know, it's very striking. let's put it that way. and that's what the jury will -- and of course, mr. trump denies that any of this ever happened he denies that he knows or ever met ms. carroll, and that's his defense. >> we have two more clips, including the ones you just mentioned, but i want to start with what we just played, the "access hollywood" tape which we've all seen a lot of times over the years, and we've seen donald trump's initial reaction

to it saying it was locker room talk. i've never seen donald trump react to it in this way. help me understand what he was saying. >> i mean, it happens quickly, but realize he has just said fortunately when asked about the ability to grab women. he has said fortunately or unfortunately. what part of that is fortunate? i don't see how you explain that away, and if he had been on the stand, he would have had an opportunity to try to rehabilitate himself. if he had been on the stand, his attorneys would have had an opportunity to confront that. there would have been, you know, a process there for it. instead, the jury has just watched that with no defense case at all. now, they'll have closing arguments, they will be able to try to clean this up in some way, but that is a striking moment for the jury to have watched with no defense. >> i don't know if we have this. can we play it again. i feel like it's worth playing again, just to go over what laura was saying. the way he responded.

we're going to get it up. it is ready. let's play. >> in this video, i just start kissing them, it's like a magnet. just kiss, i don't even wait. and when you're a star, they let you do it. you can do anything, grab them by the [ bleep ] you can do anything. that's what you said, correct? >> historically that's true with stars. >> it's true with stars that they can grab women by the. [ bleep ] >> if you look over the last million years, i guess that's been largely true, not always, but largely true, unfortunately or fortunately. >> and you consider yourself to be a star? >> i think you can say that, yeah. >> danny. >> there was celebrities, stars a million years ago, i mean, everything laura pointed out, fortunately or unfortunately, by the way, this is why i video tape every deposition of a defendant. you don't have to, but you never know what you're going to get. if you just read this transcript, it may have one effect, but if you see him

responding the way he does in realtime, and by the way, as far as i know for the first time, doubling down on what he said in the access hollywood tape whereas before he called it locker room talk, he apparently believes every word that he said many years ago that were caught on tape. so this, i think, is very troubling to see this on video. it's got to be terrific for the plaintiff. and by the way, the whole point about is trump or is he not testifying, i'll double down on that. there's no way he's coming. he's only trolling us. i'm not going to get fooled by this again, and say, oh, because he said it on a golf course. he's not showing up. i'm confident he's not. the effect of that, by saying that, he sends the plaintiff's team into a strategic quandary, do we devote our resources and time to preparing for cross-examination. he's certainly trolling the plaintiff and trolling all of us when he knows he's not going to show up. it's just not going to happen.

>> what about him saying, they let you do. they've said yes to doing it. do you read that as him assuming that he's -- it's okay, assuming that there's -- >> you're going to make me say it. >> exactly, he is saying, i will be as explicit, that women let stars and people like him do exactly whatever it is he wants to do, fortunately or unfortunately, whatever that means. and the most mind boggling thing to me is this affirmation of what he said so many years ago he tried to pass out of as locker room talk. he still believes it, and it's something that's been true for, katie, 1 million years. >> this is a civil case, they don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he raped her. they just have to prove it's more likely than not. we should make it clear how different the burden is for the plaintiffs here and how that might play out. they do need to have a unanimous

verdict, but still, they just have to prove it's more likely than not. >> does this prove that he -- what does this prove that he was of the mind that he could do whatever he wanted. it's not proven directly a pattern. >> it goes to a pattern of behavior that happened over a series of years in many different contexts, many different women. they put on two other women that he attacked them unsolicited on different occasions, different years, but it follows the same pattern that he said he would do in "access hollywood." >> let's play the clip where he goes after e. jean carroll's lawyer, robbie kaplan. >> when you said in the video that ms. leeds would not be your first choice, you were referring to her physical looks. >> i look at her, i see her, i hear what she says, whatever, you wouldn't be a choice of mine either to be honest with me. i hope you're not insulted.

i would not under any circumstances have any interest in you. i'm honest when i say it. she, i would not have any interest in. >> so ms. leeds is the woman who said he groped her on a plane. he was asked about her, and then he goes after -- >> and then your denial is to say i'm not attracted to you. i'm not attracted to the person. not that i didn't do it. i would never do it. under no circumstances would i ever rape someone. the defense is, i'm not attracted to you. unprompted. >> if i'm defense counsel in this case, my palm is planted to my forehead because this is a case where the strategy is, look, just go in there and deny everything. you don't remember it because it didn't happen, and by the way, when you read this transcript, there are dozens and dozens of pages of i don't know, i don't remember. i don't know because i don't remember. i don't remember because it didn't happen. stick to that script, and then

he gratuitously adds this nonsense in, which is not good. >> let's go to the i'm not attracted to you point, which he uses in his defense with e. jean carroll, here's the other part of the deposition where he confused e. jean carroll for his ex-wife marla maples. >> you have in front of you a black and white photograph that we have marked as dj 323. i'm going to ask you, is this the photo you were just referring to. >> i think so yes. >> do you recall when you first saw this photo? >> at some point during the process, i saw it. that's i guess her husband, john johnson who was an anchor for abc, nice guy i thought. i mean, i don't know him, but i thought he was pretty good at what he did. i don't even know who the woman -- let's see. it's marla. >> you're saying marla's in this photo? >> that's marla, that's my wife.

>> which woman are you pointing to? >> the person you pointed to is e. jean carroll. >> who is this? >> and the woman on the right is your then wife. >> is that carroll? because it's very blurry. >> let's put up the photo that he was looking at. he says it's a receiving line. the woman right in front of him on the left-hand side of the screen is not marla maples, his ex-wife now, but that is e. jean carroll, he confuses e. jean carroll with marla maples, at the same time saying she was not his type. >> again, if you had a defense case, i'm sure there would be a way to provide explanation. they do look remarkably similar at least in that picture. you would have some way to contextualize this, anything, but without a defense case, all the jury is left is with him saying she's not my type, but yet she was your type.

>> you're a defense lawyer. i know it's donald trump, but if you were his lawyer would you be going to the golf course right now and saying, please, you got to come to new york and you got to clean this up or are you saying to him, you were too volatile, i don't know what you're going to say, i'm going to clean this up myself. >> it's a combination of those. what you do with difficult clients, and this is the classic difficult client, you put it in a note, memorialize it, but you realize you cannot control your clients. making those bad decisions that clients make is why they have lawyers like me in the first place. you're not going to change them by sending him an e-mail or text, hey, don't do that. and often even judges don't understand this. they tell us get your client under control. judge, you got to be kidding me. i don't control my client. i can put it in writing so i'm covered but look, everyone on trump's defense team knows that he can not be controlled. they can ask him. they can cajole him, beg him, but it's not going to make a difference.

>> have you seen anything like this before. >> in terms of difficult clients? >> in terms of a deposition like this on tape? >> nothing like this. there are some crazy depositions. you can find them on you tube, they're out there, but nothing like this, and nothing involving and the reason we're all here, the former president of the united states. >> the former president of the united states who was accused multiple times of groping, harassment, assault, rape even, who has denied it repeatedly, and this happened during the 2016 campaign. he won in 2016, and he's denied it but he's also the front runner again. ron, wrap it up for us. what do we expect to see on monday? >> closing arguments, the defense has hammered away on the fact that e. jean carroll and her friends are democrats. they have shown the jury e-mails and speeches where they are very very critical of donald trump. they point out that she can't say exactly when this happened. there's no date. and that's what they have been hammering on to the jury, the unbelievableness of this, that

this could happen in a downtown department store when there are shoppers around. nobody has come forward, no witnesses. that's the essence of their case. however, we've seen the other side of this as well. and it's going to come down to does the jury believe mr. trump or does the jury believe carroll, two other women who say that they were assaulted and two friends of carroll's who say she told them about the alleged attack when it happened. >> we'll find out what happens in this court of law i'm sure in a matter of days, what it means for the 2024 election is still up in the air. it didn't mean anything for 2016. i asked women about that "access hollywood" tape, multiple women and they shrugged it off and called it locker room talk. 2024 is a different time, and donald trump lost in 2020. a lot of people said they were tired of all of the drama, all of the baggage that he was carrying around, and this is just that, and potentially just that for a lot of voters out there, making a potentially a hard time. if he gets a gop nomination to

win in a general election. everybody, thank you very much for starting us off with that remarkable video deposition. appreciate it. coming up, more unreported payments to justice clarence thomas's family. what the "washington post" now says his wife ginni thomas was paid, tens of thousands of dollars for, and who did the paying? plus, what the ”the new york times” says a cooperating witness is telling the doj about classified documents found at mar-a-lago. the legal troubles keep piling up. also, dianne feinstein has been absent from the senate since february. what she's now saying about coming back. we are back in 60 seconds. a coming back. we are back in 60 sendcos. we're done. what about these? looks right. nooo... nooo... quick, the quicker picker upper! one sheet of bounty is all you need and bounty is 2x more absorbent so you can use less. bounty, the quicker picker upper.

this week is your chance to try any subway footlong for free. like the subway series menu. just buy any footlong in the app, and get one free. everyone loves free stuff chuck. can we get peyton a footlong? get it before it's gone. on the subway app. introducing astepro allergy. get it before it's gone. now available without a prescription. astepro is the first and only 24-hour steroid-free spray. while flonase takes hours, astepro starts working in 30 minutes. so you can [ spray, spray ] astepro and go. first it was justice clarence thomas himself, then his mother, grand nephew, and now it's his wife. unearthed documents reviewed by "the washington post" showed tens of thousands of dollars were funneled to ginni thomas

back in 2012, allegedly for consulting work. the post reports the payments were arranged by a right wing judicial activist, leonard leo who told former trump adviser and gop poster kellyanne conway to bill a nonprofit he advised but then to transfer that money to thomas. his directive to her, keep ginni thomas's name off the books. the same year that nonprofit filed an amicus brief in a supreme court case which ultimately stripped away parts of the voting rights act, a case clarence thomas did not recuse himself from. nbc news has not confirmed "the washington post's" reporting on leo's payments or yesterday's propublica's reporting on harlan crow's payments. leo and crow have defended the family, and denied unethical behavior. joining me now is "washington post" reporter emma brown, part of the team that uncovered this

latest reporting. emma, walk us through who leonard leo and what sort of payments he allegedly was giving to ginni thomas, and why the timing is of interest. >> leonard leo is not exactly a household name but he's a really important figure in what has been a generation-long effort by conservative activists to shift the federal judiciary to the right, and he oversees an interlocking network of nonprofits that just a couple of years ago got a major infusion of $1.6 billion in cash. so he is an influential person, and what documents we reviewed show is that in 2012 he told kellyanne conway who would of course go on to join the trump white house, she was then in charge of her own polling firm, and he said, look, i want you to -- and the quote was give

ginni thomas another 25k and he directed her to bill a nonprofit he advised, the judicial education project, and to use that money to then pay ginni thomas for what he said was consulting work. the timing matters because it was in 2012 that the judicial education project filed its first amicus brief and it was in shelby v. holder, the land mark voting rights case in which the stream court struck down a provision of the voting rights act that is meant to protect minority voters. clarence thomas agreed with that decision, but actually wrote separately to say he would have gone further and struck down a broader provision in the law. that was the same outcome that the judicial education project had also advocated for, and i think, you know, this was a position. this was not a new position for thomas. he had held this position in the past, but the standard for

determining recusal is, you know, a reasonable person has reason to question the impartiality of a judge, and so the question is whether, you know, this payment arrangement in which leo sought to keep ginni thomas's name off of paperwork constituted some sort of conflict of interest that raises questions about the impartiality of justice. >> leo said the reason he was keeping her name off the paperwork is he was trying to protect the privacy of the thomas family, and the work ginni thomas did not involve anything connected with either the court's business or with other legal issues, but as you just mentioned, recusal requires or should require just the appearance of impropriety. we're now seeing a lot of these questions about clarence thomas's ethical behavior, his disclosures pile up. is there a breaking point from your reporting.

have you seen anything that could further be coming that would make it impossible, i mean, it's hard to predict, but impossible for the supreme court to ignore? >> well, i think what we're seeing right now, and you know, last year there was the dobbs leak, and other excellent reporting on the court by "politico," "the washington post" had reporting about ginni thomas, and her role in trying to overturn the 2020 election, and then, you know, in the last month, this series of block buster revelations by propublica, there is just this scrutiny on the court that the pressure seems to be building on the chief justice. many more calls for action, and of course, you know, media everywhere now looking for conflicts of interest, not just with one justice but all the justices, and so, you know, i think we're in a moment of great scrutiny for the court. >> all right.

emma, thank you very much. joining me now is nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake. so the calls for an investigation, the calls for accountability have been pretty loud in congress, especially among senate democrats. what are you hearing today? >> almost exclusively among democrats. that's part of the challenge. it's worth a step back to understand the position justice thomas holds in conservative legal circles. he's an icon to conservatives in the same way ruth bader ginsburg was to liberals, and senate republicans in particular have been loathe to criticize him in any way. i will say yesterday, talking to senate republicans, including those on the judiciary committee, a significant reluctant to criticize justice thomas or only justice thomas, but an acknowledgment that the court's ethics rules are not keeping up with the complaints against sitting justices in some cases. i talked to thom tillis, republican from north carolina who sits on the judiciary

committee who says the court needs to get ahead of this and address the perception that you were just describing, the perceptions of improprieties on their own. he argued congress has not place to impose a code of ethics on the supreme court, but the supreme court risks losing legitimacy in the eyes of the american people if they don't get ahead of these issues sooner rather than later. >> thank you very much. and coming up next, donald trump wants the hush money case against him moved from state court to federal court. what he's arguing and what it would mean for that case. plus, what do you say when some house republicans don't believe a debt default would be all that bad. the tricky position speaker kevin mccarthy finds himself in, and why punch bowl argues the white house might be better served politically in 2024 if president biden ends up compromising. in 2024 if president biden ends up compromising

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that is special counsel jack smith has an insider at mar-a-lago. multiple people familiar with the inquiry tell the paper that a person who worked for the former president at his private club is cooperating with the justice department on the handling of classified documents, as prosecutors try to determine whether donald trump purposefully hid government documents from the federal government after doj issued a subpoena demanding their return. joining me now is nbc news legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, paul butler. the hole they're trying to fill is what happened after that subpoena was issued and the times that they came to collect all those documents. why did documents that were supposed to be in that storage facility suddenly appear in donald trump's office? >> that's exactly what jack smith wants to find out. prosecutors have purportedly interviewed virtually every

employee at mar-a-lago. they finally found an inside man or woman who can help them figure out what was going on with these top secret documents, where they were stored, who had access to them and what trump told his employees and what trump told his lawyers about these materials. >> the times is also reporting that prosecutors had a choice on the decision of how to go after -- how to get information from the president's personal valet who's seen on the surveillance video allegedly apparently moving boxes and the question was do they use a carrot or a stick, you're not in trouble at all but you have to tell us everything. or do they say, you could be in a lot of trouble, you got to tell us everything. they chose the you could be in a lot of trouble route. and nada has buttoned up and has not talked to prosecutors since

that initial conversation. is that a problem for jack smith's team? >> it is a problem. the justice department obtained the mar-a-lago search warrant because they persuaded a federal judge that there was probable cause that someone at mar-a-lago was guilty of obstruction of justice and we know that trump's valet had access, and reportedly, as you say, katy, prosecutors tried to get his cooperation by threatening to go after him, but that didn't work. he's gone full team trump. prosecutors are really interested in who's paying the legal fees for these witnesses from mar-a-lago, reportedly trump and his aides are. that's not against the law, but there is concern about their loyalty, and whether they're telling the truth. so it's an important development that prosecutors don't have to rely on this valet that now they have another eyewitness who can

provide some of the same information. >> nbc news has not confirmed the reporting, the times has. i'm wondering with all that you have so far read, where do you think this investigation is? >> you know, last week the big news was that former vice president pence had testified to the grand jury and that was almost certainly about january 6th, and that seemed like an important escalation in that investigation, but these developments, katy, suggest that jack smith is still on this classified documents case. that's a more traditional public corruption prosecutor. trump is going to say it's all political. especially since it's come out that former vice president biden and pence also maintained documents that they weren't supposed to. but if there's a witness who can testify that trump was active trying to hide these documents, that would take this beyond a documents case to major concerns about obstruction of justice and national security. >> paul butler, thank you very

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could be beneficial for president biden. joining me is punch bowl cofounder, john bresnahan. let's start with what punch bowl news has reported. there are a lot of phone calls being made by top executives around the country warning lawmakers that a default is a really bad idea. >> yeah, what we reported in the midday edition was that the white house, including white house chief of staff, janet yellen, are calling ceos urging them to pressure congress saying, hey, lawmakers, members and senators, it's time to get going on this. a default would be catastrophic for the u.s. economy. congress needs to get into this. so they are pressuring the ceos and they want them to pressure congress. and i we kind of laid this out, my colleague jake sherman and i

laid this out this morning. some kind of debt limit deal would be good for biden. i mean, especially if it cuts spending or it freezes spending or limits spending, you know, he's tacking toward the center as he gears up for reelection. you look at it on immigration, for instance. doing something on spending, reigning in government spending that's never going to be bad for a president in an election year ago, i think something to keep the economy moving, you know, doesn't alienate progressives too much, and you know, limits or reduces spending. there's a deal to be had there. >> democrats would argue that this is not fair for him to be making any sort of deal here, that republicans have raised the debt limit without any questions a number of times in the past, and republicans have been president. it's only an issue when democrats are in power, so why should the democrats fold suddenly when the republicans decide to make an issue of it. >> yeah, well, sorry, it's not fair. it isn't fair.

it's complete hypocrisy on the grounds of the republicans. no question about it. but then republicans dig out old video of, you know, then senator joe biden saying there should be some kind of spending bill deal to raise the debt limit. both sides are hypocrites on this issue. republicans probably more so on this. i do think, though, it's imperative that this is not republican party of even, you know, five or ten years ago. this is a republican party that particularly in a post trump era or semi-post trump era, they're not, they're driven by their flings, and the flings want to, you know, they don't believe that a default is a big deal. they believe the government can continue to function and the economy will go on as, you know, it's that the media is making this up and democrats are making this up. we know that's not true.

so, you know, there's a real danger here that in moderates and democrats, moderate republicans and democrats are aware of that they're scared of the right wing of the republican party, and this is something speaker mccarthy has to deal with and senator minority leader mcconnell. a gofferening coalition has to emerge somewhere with speaker mccarthy and president biden, there has to be a governing issue. >> and the democrats probably need senator feinstein to pass anything in the senate, and the word is she might be back next week, is it next week? >> you know, it's hard to say. senator feinstein, she's the oldest member of the senate, 89 years old. she has been out for a couple of months. she has shingles. she's not returned to washington. she's not given anything other

than statements through her office about when her return is. she did speak to senate majority leader, chuck schumer, there was some question about whether she'll come back next week but her office, the latest public statement said she has not been cleared to fly yet. so we'll have to see. she could come back next week. she could come back in a couple of weeks. she could not return. i mean, look, this is one of the areas where senators and members of congress, they're not very transparent at all. health issues, we have seen it over the years, both parties, senators, members, this is a very very difficult issue for everybody to deal with. >> john bresnahan, thank you very much. and a quick programming note, tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern, stephanie ruhle sits down with president joe biden for an exclusive, his first since announcing his reelection bid. they're going to cover his campaign, the debt ceiling

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she asked what the biden administration is doing to prepare for the number of people who are trying to get into the united states. >> reporter: i'm down here in brownsville, texas, where just this morning they say 2,300 migrants cross in this area in the rio grande valley. behind me there are migrants set up in tents where they will from here go into rio grande valley to be processed and many of them will be pushed back into mexico under title 42, these covid-19 restrictions, but those are set to lift next week, and that is why secretary of homeland security alejandro mayorkas and other border leaders came here today to share their plans for what happens when those restrictions lift and more migrants come to the border in what is expected to be a historic surge. i had the opportunity to speak to secretary mayorkas one on one and ask for his plans when title 42 is lifted. his message to americans is they are doing all they can, they need more help from congress. they are trying to put in place more restrictive policies that would keep immigrants from

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clinging to a storied past. but will it? here's nbc's keir simmons. >> reporter: king charles looking relaxed just 24 hours before the biggest day of his life. the prince and princess of wales even taking time to go to a local pub. >> having done some of this, it puts everyone at a bit more ease. >> good. if all goes well, good. fingers crossed. good weather, as well. >> reporter: overnight the city's landmarks lit up, and this morning commuters treated to a light-hearted message from the king. >> please mind the gap. >> reporter: london is almost ready with last-minute preparations under way, under heightened security. while many are looking forward to the pomp and circumstance, protesters are vowing to ensure their slogan "not my king" is heard. it will be britain's biggest ceremonial event this century. >> i think it's going to look amazing, yes. >> reporter: the major general in charge speaking to us

exclusively. how nervous do you get before a big event like this? >> i don't really get nervous because we've done a huge amount of training. >> reporter: little has been revealed about prince harry's plans. the king's youngest son will attend without his wife and children, but harry will not have a formal role in the coronation. on saturday, by 5:00 a.m. eastern, guests including first lady jill biden will be arriving. at 5:20, the king and queen's procession will leave buckingham palace for the abbey. around 6:00 a.m. around 2,200 guests the coronation ceremony will begin. the crowning moment midway through the ceremony -- approximately 7:00 a.m. on the east coast. at 8:00 a.m., the king and queen will ride in a gold stage coach for a stunning procession of 4,000 troops. then at around 9:30, the famous balcony appearance. expect more fun pictures of the children, while 9-year-old prince george will make history

as a page. the barnes family flying in from seattle to be here, trying to get a glimpse of it all. 80-year-old chris has traveled for many royal events, and now she's bringing her daughter and granddaughter. >> it's going to be great seeing my grandmother in her element. >> reporter: the coronation, a celebration that will be remembered by generations. joining me now is the former managing editor of "the sunday times" in london, clive irving, always good to have you on. you're our favorite person to go to for these stories. it's complicated for king charles iii. it's complicated for the united kingdom. yes, there's still quite a bit of support for the monarchy, but it's diminished over the years, and it's diminishing with this new king. doesn't have the same popularity or goodwill that his mother did. what's next? how is this coronation going to go? will it be accepting, a very different looking future, or will it be clinging, as i said

earlier, to a storied past? >> well, it should be -- reflects enormous change socially in that you've got two divorced people being coronated. that would have been unthinkable in 1953. also unthinkable would have been the king's previous mistress is going to be crowned, and the crown has a load of diamonds in it worth about $60 billion. so that's one big change. and you've pointed out that it seems anicknistic against the idea of this being a modern state to have something basically medieval which is part of the -- this whole coronation, part of the british constitution unwinding before your eyes. you see the tensions there. and i think one of the problems, real problems king charles has is there's a disconnect between this wonderfully culturally diverse country of which london is very diverse, it's a

wonderful diverse city, and a royal family which is very rich white people surrounded by other very rich white people trying to connect to this vast change in the country. and so far, not making much of it. but they've made several missteps in the planning of the coronation, most flagrant of which was to ask for a vote -- a vote of allegiance in the middle of the service. but i think that it -- it's always going to be difficult for charles because he is himself not -- doesn't seem a person at this time. they chose to do it that way because they could have skipped a generation. if they had a generational change to will and kate, at least the optics would have been different even if there were fundamental changes underneath that remain the same. there is a lot of pressure on charles tomorrow to look as though he's capable of stepping out as it were this -- this pageant. and understanding what's going

on in his country, and the country at the moment is going through very tough times. there's a great deal of public destitution. in a sense, there's a danger that this will feel like holding a banquet next to a food bank. >> yeah. can the monarchy and british society, the country, can it evolve together when there are these competing forces at play with, as you said, i mean, the rising amount of poverty in the uk, the costs just skyrocketing, people struggling to pay their energy bills but also struggling to afford food. >> yeah. the trouble is the difference between being a prince of wales and being the king is that being the king, he has to tow the line with the government of the day. there has to be -- the way this works is there's a consensus between the crown and the government. he can't step out of line and say anything that they don't want him to say. and at the moment, on this very day when this government has suffered an amazing loss in the

local elections in the country, that the country has no more confidence in that government, and they want it gone. and as long as charles is tied to that government, then he's in a sense not able to step out and say what changes need to be made. so he -- he's moved from being a man who was create sized for having too many opinions to being a man now who's chained to the job. he's sort of become a puppet of the government, and he's got to be careful not to become a kind of useful idiot to the government and reflect their values over his own values. >> clive irving, always like to have you. thank you so much for coming on today. appreciate it. >> thank you. be sure, if you are interested, to wake up tomorrow because, again, the first coronation in 70 years could possibly be the last. i don't think it's a sure thing at all that we'll see this institution go forward for who knows -- i don't know -- who knows what might happen? msnbc's coverage of king charles' historic coronation