that the country has no more confidence in that government, and they want it gone. and as long as charles is tied to that government, then he's in a sense not able to step out and say what changes need to be made. so he -- he's moved from being a man who was create sized for having too many opinions to being a man now who's chained to the job. he's sort of become a puppet of the government, and he's got to be careful not to become a kind of useful idiot to the government and reflect their values over his own values. >> clive irving, always like to have you. thank you so much for coming on today. appreciate it. >> thank you. be sure, if you are interested, to wake up tomorrow because, again, the first coronation in 70 years could possibly be the last. i don't think it's a sure thing at all that we'll see this institution go forward for who knows -- i don't know -- who knows what might happen? msnbc's coverage of king charles' historic coronation

hosted by alex witt will start at 5:00 a.m. eastern. that is going to do it for me. "deadline white house" begins right now. hi there, everyone. happy friday. it's 4:00 in new york. donald trump's once loyal attorney general bill barr recently said that the classified documents probe was the most threatening to trump, and brand new reporting in "the new york times" reveals why that may be the case. "new york times" out with some blockbuster new reporting that shows that special counsel jack smith is leaving no stone unturned in his pursuit of answers to questions about trump's conduct. namely, whether he sought to obstruct efforts by the government to get back classified documents. some of which contained incredibly sensitive national security secrets. from that new "times" story, quote, federal prosecutors investigating former president trump's handling of classified documents have obtained the

confidential cooperation of a person who has worked for him at mar-a-lago. it's part of an intensifying effort to determine whether trump ordered boxes containing sensitive material moved out of a storage room there as the government sought to recover it last year. the witness who is now cooperating with the special counsel is just one of many, many people in trump's orbit who have been ensnared in this investigation. "new york times" reports this, quote, in the past few weeks, at least four more mar-a-lago employees have been subpoenaed along with another person who had visibility into trump's thinking when he first returned material to the national archives. that's according to people briefed on the matter. two people said that nearly everyone who works at mar-a-lago has been subpoenaed, and that some who serve in fairly obscure jobs have been asked back by investigators. prosecutors have also issued several subpoenas to trump's company. the trump organization. seeking additional surveillance

footage from mar-a-lago. a major focus for prosecutors, what trump did or did not tell his own lawyers. "times" reports this about testimony given to a grand jury by trump's attorney, evan corcoran. quote, during his appearance before the grand jury in march, corcoran testified that several trump employees had told him that the mar-a-lago storage room was the only place where the document were kept. the employees turned out to be wrong. when fbi agents searched mar-a-lago in august, they found classified documents in trump's office and residence. but at the time, that was a common belief within trump's inner circle. although corcoran testified that trump did not personally convey that false information, this testimony hardly absolved the former president. corcoran also recounted to the grand jury how trump did not tell his lawyers of any other locations where the documents were stored. which may have effectively misled the legal team. special counsel jack smith's

investigation into classified documents kept at mar-a-lago uncovering evidence of potential obstruction of justice by donald trump himself. this is where we start with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "new york times" washington correspondent mike schmidt is here. one of the reporters bilined on this big piece of reporting we read from. also joining us, mary mccord, she's a former top official in the justice department's national security division. former rnc chairman mike will steele is here and with us at the time. and acting solicitor general, now law professor at georgetown university. lucky for us, all msnbc contributors. mike schmidt, take us through what you and your colleagues are reporting and what you think the significance is in terms. understanding where jack smith's investigation is today. >> i think the most important thing to come out of our story and our reporting is that -- look, there's a lot in the story. the thing that we're trying to basically get at is that the

issue of the cooperation of the person who was around trump who was someone that knew something about how the boxes were moved and what was going on behind the scenes at mar-a-lago, the fact that they do not have his cooperation is something that has really hurt the investigation. and it has sent them out in many different directions to try and get the information that he could provide to them. this means that they're looking for the footage. this means that they're talking to every person they can at mar-a-lago to get their sense of what was going on and what they know about what was moved. this is all trying to fill the hole that was created by the lack of this cooperation. and in the story, we talk about the fact that back many months ago when the government was trying to get nowda to cooperate they had the choice between using a carrot or a stick to get him to cooperate. they basically essentially sent

the message that they could charge him. and at that point, that shut him down. and the government stopped having his cooperation and still doesn't have it today and is still apparently searching to understand what was it that happened with these boxes, how were they moved, why were they moved, when were they moved, at whose behest were they moved. those are many things that walt nowda can answer that the feds do not have his full cooperation on. >> so mike, if this one witness, mr. nowta, is obstructing that part of the investigation and causing them to essentially subpoena everybody who works at mar-a-lago, and they have some of this conduct on the surveillance footage which i believe doj's own filings suggest they do, why not charge mr. nowta? >> well, that's one of the questions is that what is going on in this investigation -- like in terms of like what charges they may bring at some point, and will they try to use charges

to work from the bottom up. so far in this investigation, it's been largely a grand jury investigation with some big overt investigative moves like executing a search warrant at mar-a-lago. what remains to be seen is how much will the justice department try and use its prosecutorial powers, its ability to charge people to work up that ladder, to try and get that, and how much did they need to do that. if they really thought they needed walt nowta and thought they had to charge him to get his cooperation, in order to indict donald trump -- this is a hypothetical -- that is something that could take a fair amount of time to do and to move forward with, to try and get that. so i think what the government is trying to do is to try and fill that hole in with other things. with -- with the surveillance footage, with other witnesses, with these confidential photos they have obtained. that's what they're trying to

do. they're trying to get around the fact that they don't have this key witness. >> mike, there's something -- it is a -- i suggest everyone go read it. it is a story with lots of twists and turns and lots of information in it. this was one of the most intriguing things. you and your colleagues report this, quote, one of the previously unreported subpoenas to the trump organization sought records pertaining to trump's dealings with the saudi-backed professional golf venture known as liv golf which is holding tournaments at some of trump's golf resorts. it's unclear what bearing trump's relationship with liv golf has on the broader investigation. but it suggests that the prosecutors are examining certain elements of trump's family business. what are the theories on why jack smith is interested in trump's dealings with the saudi-backed golf venture? >> so as a reporter, this is never a satisfying thing to say about your own story and story of my colleagues, but it's one of the great mysteries of the

story. what is it that this subpoena is about? what is it that they're looking for? on the face of it, it is tantalizing, it is very curious. what is it about trump's relationship, his financial relationship, with liv golf? we know that some of the liv golf tournaments have been scheduled to be played at trump courses. they may have already been played there, i'm not sure. we know there is a relationship there. and what is this -- is this directly part of something directly related to the documents? what is it about? it's very tantalizing, and we took it as far as we could take it. we thought it was an important piece of information to put out there. but at the end of the day, we do not know what specifically they're looking for. >> the beating heart of the reporting, though, seems to be the reporting about confidential witness at mar-a-lago. tell us what your understanding is of how that balances out your

reporting about walt nowta. is this person able to close the loop or answer some of those questions now sort of in the walt nowta black box? >> maybe. we know that they have the cooperation of this confidential witness. we know that this witness had provided the authorities with some type of photo that was taken from inside of mar-a-lago. and it seems to be from our reporting that the cooperation of this person has been done in a way to try and protect this person. we know that it is very difficult or it has been or those around donald trump have struggled to fully cooperate with different investigations over the years. it seems like the government has tried to obtain this information in a way to protect this individual. now if they were to go to trial and this was a key piece of evidence, they wouldn't be able to do that. but it seems like someone was able to provide the investigators with some sort of insight in the form of a photo

into what -- what it looked like inside of mar-a-lago at a critical time that they were trying to figure out were these boxes being moved around, what was going on with the documents. >> mike schmidt, to you and your colleagues, thank you so much for this big scoop and this new pretty sizable installation of information about a very opaque investigation. thank you for starting us off. mary mccord, i want to pick up on the storage facility. this has been something that we've known was at the center of -- i don't know if it's appropriate or accurate to suggest an obstruction prong and a classified documents prong of mar-a-lago, but for the purposes of this conversation let's do that today. in the obstruction prong of the mar-a-lago probe, this is what doj has written -- this was a filing to the special master, several innings ago in this probe. doj asserts this, quote, through further investigation the fbi uncovered multiple sources of evidence indicating that the response to the may 11th grand jury subpoena was incomplete and that classified documents

remained at the premises, notwithstanding the sworn certification made to the government on june 3. in particular, the government developed evidence that a search limited to the storage room would not have uncovered all the classified documents at the premises. the government also developed evidence that government records were likely concealed and removed from the storage room, and that efforts were likely taken to obstruct the government's investigation. now i don't know how that plugs into the puzzle piece of walt nowta, but the government had information in may and june that all the classified material not only wasn't in the storage room, but that it had been moved. tell me your sort of translation of what we're seeing, what we already knew from their filings and what this new piece of reporting answers. >> yeah, i think that, you know, as we've talked about is key because that shows that even after getting the subpoena or evidence that would show

movement after getting the subpoena could support an obstruction charge, right. so i think what you're seeing now and listening to the discussion with mike schmidt, i agree that walt nowta could be a critical witness, but i wouldn't say that what jack smith is doing now is simply trying to fill the gap of what they can't get from walt nowta if he's not cooperating. that's because even if he was handing them the keys to the kingdom they wouldn't want to go into court and bring an indictment based on just one cooperating witness. and particularly if it's somebody who they're actually thinking they might charge or use a charge or the agreement not to charge as an inducement to get his cooperation because that's something he'll be attacked on for his credibility if he's doing this to save himself, and just one person's word is not going to be good enough for the -- the department is not going to want to rely on just that. i think they would be doing all of these same things anyway.

they'd be looking at the surveillance tapes, they'd be trying to figure out if there are gaps in those tapes and why those gaps exist. they'd be talking to other people, other employees of mar-a-lago, to determine if what they say can corroborate walt nowta, and certainly we already know they've talked to one of the former president's attorneys, evan corcoran, and probed him, at least based on the reporting, as to what kind of questions were being asked about the movement of those boxes. the other thing they would want to do is figure out the why, right? why would he be holding back documents, why would he be obstructing if they are thinking of bringing an obstruction charge. that's where i think one of the things that's interesting about the paragraph you read from the reporting about liv golf. because one of the things we do know is that saudi arabia's sovereign wealth fund owns the vast majority of that golf venture, something like 93%. we know that it is that

sovereign wealth fund is run by the crown prince. so this is speculation, but if you are thinking about a motive, right, for president trump potentially to be holding back documents, not providing documents, there's a number of things you could think are possible. at worst, he potentially wanted to share classified information with the saudis. he could have been holding back information as sort of blackmail to make sure that they come through and host golf tournaments at his golf resorts. that is very, very lucrative for the former president. he could be -- it could be that he wrote notes on documents that pertain to the saudis that he doesn't want the federal government to see. it could be that he just does the donald trump thing and thinks it's cool to have these documents. i mean, there's lots of reasons, and it's really speculative for me to each be saying what i just said. but the point is if you're doj you're looking for the why

because you've got to be able to tell a jury you do bring a case, why. what is the modus operandi, what is the intent, and following the money, following possible places of vulnerability and weakness that might have motivated trump to do some of the things that it's looking like there may be evidence that he did, that is have boxes moved, attempt to obstruct justice, that's going to be a focus of the investigation. >> mary, what does it suggest that the public reporting suggests that all these things are happening? that it's a subpoena to provokes -- you call it rank speculation. it's pretty studied theorizing. that if you're looking for a motive, you're at a fairly advanced stage. and you may have some other aspects of the probe already sewn up. what does it suggest if anything about the maturity of the investigation? >> yeah, you know, i -- i guess when i was investigating cases,

i actually looked for motive pretty early on. that was not a late stage. obviously if you have witnesses, eyewitnesses, precipiient witnesses you want to get to them right away, but you're thinking from the beginning what is the why behind this, what is -- what was motivating the person we think committed a crime. so i don't think that that comes in just at the very end. i think -- and i don't know that we know what the date of the subpoena was. i think the reporting is just that it's recently revealed that there was a subpoena like this. and so it could be that it is actually quite dated. but one of the things that prosecutors, bread and butter of prosecutors' investigations is, you know, follow any money. where are the points, again, of vulnerability. so that's what i see here more than the showing an end stage. >> neil? >> yeah. so i mean, i'm going to start with the sentence i almost never say, but i agree with bill barr. this investigation is the most serious threat to donald trump. and it's so because there's two pieces to it.

one is trump's stealing of documents, and the other is obstruction of justice. the stealing of documents has gotten mucked up by the fact that pence and biden also appear to have documents -- not that they stole them, looks inadvertent. nonetheless, it's a more complicated inquiry than many of us thought right when the news first broke. it's the obstruction piece which has always loomed over this, and there's always been evidence of it. they're missing gaps on the tapes, there's -- you know, the way in which the government executed that search warrant suggested they already had someone on the inside back a year ago. and the like. and so while walter newta may not be cooperating now, the government's always had a certain amount of information, and that's why i think the story today in "the new york times" is so significant. it looks like moving toward the end and yes, there have been twists and turns, but at the end of the day, what the picture that emerges is of a president who, you know, took these

documents and probably wanted to use them for some sort of nefarious purpose and tried to hide the documents. now maybe there's pieces of that story that are hard to prove. maybe they're hard to prove because people like walt newta aren't cooperating because trump is making them not cooperate. one of trump's modus operandis has been to pay the lawyers for witnesses against him. so i'm sure if you're the justice department right now, you're wondering, hey, who's paying walt newta's legal bills right now. >> right. mary, speculation -- do you think that -- i mean they've got a lot of date stamps, right? surveillance footage is inherently, you know, a moment in time. it has a dateline on it typically. do you think that if they're looking at or trying to piece together or ask some questions about motive they're looking at -- here's the timeline for the probe. here's when they knew that the fbi knew what they had. january, 2022, trump gives back

15 boxes of stuff to the national archives. it includes classified things. by may 11th, doj subpoenas trump for everything else. so they already know that he has a lot more. june 3rd, his legal team meets with doj, provides this attestation that no classified documents are left -- that's what got the headlines about lawyers hiring lawyers. christine bobb has, too, been before the grand jury. august 8th, the fbi finds 100 classified documents at mar-a-lago. in october the department of justice tells the trump team there's still more. we didn't get them all. november, december, they find two documents themselves that are classified at a storage site in west palm beach. by january, we have the news about ben corcoran and christina bobb testifying before the grand jury. by april, corcoran has recused himself. evan corcoran isn't his lawyer in the mar-a-lago probe anymore because he is ostensibly a government witness. >> that's exactly right. and then there's one more set of events which is the government, jack smith goes in to pierce

attorney/client privilege, the mow sacrosanct thing an attorney can have of evan corcoran because he's the guy who told christina bobb that i certify that all the -- all the documents have been turned over. so now trump's own lawyer is a potential witness against donald trump for the judge to have granted that, she had to find basically serious evidence a crime had been committed. so we're already in the zone of a crime has been committed, sworn off on by a federal judge. now the only question is did trump have anything to do with it. and that's where i think like these inquiries like you were talking to mike about the liv saudi ininquiry so interesting to me. mike's reporting did not say jack smith was the source of the subpoena. so it could be in some other part of the justice department. it could be an unrelated prosecution or investigation that we just haven't heard about. but if it is jack smith, then we

get into those questions that mary mccord was saying before. is this part of the underlying document, motivation, and the like, or is it something else. so far we've known jack smith is investigating mar-a-lago and january 6th. how the saudi piece fits in to either of these is a difficult thing to try and speculate about. >> i'll come you to, michael steele. i have to take a break, but i don't want to do that without getting your take on this. if it's friday, we're talking about trump, we're talking about the saudis, and talking about a potentially mature criminal investigation into his obstructing another investigation. >> yes. to all of that. and i just love the opening of the show today because it is so rich with reporting and legal analysis to give you a real sense of what's at play here and how doj's moving. but let's pull back the lens a little bit and look at the politics for just a second before we go to break, and

that's this -- none of this really matters to a lot of the people around the country who are in line with trump. you know, this individual who's defending and warding off of the doj investigation is a symptom of what you'll see play out over the course of this political season. people, whether trump asks them or not, rally to his cause. that's going to be a very interesting back story and foreground story at various times on how -- how this investigation rolls itself along and how it ultimately plays out getting toward that ballot box. >> that's absolutely right. and that's why i think we always come back to the rule of law isn't just sort of blowing in the wind. it's pushing against this other tectonic plate, pushing just as hard against it, and that is trump and trumpism and everything he ushered in. no one is going anywhere. there's a lot more to get to with all of these guests including another jaw-dropping revelation related to the u.s. supreme court.

this one involves $25,000 secret payment to clarence thomas' wife, ginny, with strict directions to make no mention of ginny in any of the paperwork about it. plus, donald trump in his own words, under oath on camera. lordy, there are tapes this afternoon. and we're seeing them for the very first time. it's the testimony he gave in the ongoing civil trial brought by e. jean carroll. we'll show you what the jury heard including his defense of the now-infamous "access hollywood" tape. he's standing by it. we'll continue after a break. and you say, and again this has become famous in this video, "i just start kissing them. it's like a magnet. just kiss. i don't even wait. and when you're a star they let you do it. you can do anything. grab them by the [ bleep ]. you can do anything." that's what you said, correct? >> historically that's true with stars. >> true with stars -- that they

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(cecily) on the network worth bragging about. verizon so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. was there a limited number of people who had access to that storage room? it seeps like a pretty important room, right, since they've made such a big deal of it and have the lock on it. were there a limited number of people who could go in and out?

>> yes, absolutely. >> or who had access to it? >> certainly mar-a-lago is secure in and of itself. you know, just getting onto the compound is hard. and then it was a locked door, and getting, you know, back down into the basement, there's security. you can't just walk down there. only certain members of staff can get there, and then there's only one key. so yes, it's a very limited number of people that have access down there. and you know, it was enough to where president trump believed -- our team believed that it was secure enough. >> so that was trump attorney christine that bobb in the aftermath of the fbi's court-approved search of mar-a-lago talking about access to the classified documents stored in the storage room there. we're back with mary, michael, and neal. michael steele, the beginning, i asked mary about the two prongs. it would seem that's a great answer if you're defending against allegations that the material was not indeed safe. but the truth is only donald trump would have had clearance. nobody else should have been able to access them. and if he's not the guy that went in and moved them, the

better answer on the obstruction prong is like, oh, all manner of people were in and out of that room, it wasn't trump. what she says right there is that very controlled in and out, trump would have had -- i mean, they can't answer any questions on either half of this without incriminaing their client, donald trump, on the other side. >> and that's always been the problem. we saw it play out politically with republicans in washington. we see it play out in the various investigations and impeachments with trump lawyers. they're always trying to cover -- it's the worst game of whack-a-mole ever because you're always trying to cover the hole before something pops up, and you can't get there. you can never catch it. you can never catch up because, you know, and say what we just heard, the lawyers sort of telling us, well, yeah, there's only -- basically only one person has access to this room but only one person has a key. so when they get in the room and find all these classified

documents, it really doesn't matter whether it's under lock and key or not. because one person has access to it, that's trump, and so then it begs all the question that was, you know -- that mike talked about in his reporting, wrote about in his reporting, and then neal was just referring to what are these documents, what are they doing here, what did you want to do with them, how did the saudis play a role? so there's always something else, and the problem is the -- lawyers can never account for the something else because it leads to other things. there are other threads that are exposed, that when pulled by legal authorities like the doj, which is what, you know, jack smith is doing right now, he's pulling on all the threads that are currently exposed. and that's leading to other threads that are revealing more and more information. >> you know, we never really got any answers about the financial entanglements between trump and his daughter and son-in-law and the saudis.

but this subpoena suggests that there's an active inquiry into some sliver of that, potentially more. the golf tournaments are an interesting public-facing piece of that. trump has been seen with his allies, i think tucker carlson was there, one of his kids, at the golf tournaments. it is a serious and public entanglement. what are your questions about the saudi piece, the saudi subpoena? >> how does jared get a $2 billion payday? let's start there. >> and the mnuchin doesn't. >> right and mnuchin doesn't. so jared walks out of the white house with $2 billion in some go-me-fund thing that he's doing, right, and everybody's fixated on the -- republican side fixated on a laptop by hunter biden. mike said it, follow the money. that's what this is about, you know. following the money, and the money will always lead you to those threads, right? that legal authorities pull on.

and so yeah, there are -- legitimate questions about this nexus between the trump white house, about that being all the players who have their fingers playing in the middle east with saudi arabia, and trump himself, and how they benefit from this on the other side of this time in the white house. and clearly there's some -- there's some things that should be looked at. and the saudis, you know, they ain't complaining. $2 billion worth the investment if trump doesn't say anything about the execution of a "washington post" reporter and, you know, that's how it works. >> i mean, mary, we don't even talk anymore about what trump ushered in. what's apparent in this story, a complete co-mingling of his business, the trump organization. also in the story is some interesting reporting about the father and son who worked for trump org being subpoenaed. this san investigation into

classified documents he took while ostensibly our commander in chief. and public facing is looking at how that mashed up with his businesses. what do you think an investigation that includes subpoenas of the calamaris, subpoenas around the liv golf tournament, interactions and dealings, do you think it's looking at the final days of a trump presidency? famously, jared kushner was in middle east on january 6th. >> quite possibly so, but i think you really -- you nailed it right at the beginning of the question which is that nothing is ever uncomplicated when it comes to trump because he did co-mingle so much of his business, his family business, and his personal life with his role in the white house. and i don't think he ever appreciated -- i think it's almost undebatable that he never really appreciated what his role was as the president. and you know, the sort of, you know, missteps in half-hearted

efforts to sort of distance himself from all of his various financial incentives and financial interests. and you know, we saw litigation over the emoluments clause and his hotels being used routinely to have foreign governments and foreign dignitaries stay there. and he was making money off of that, right. so these are things that have always been part and parcel of trump's time in the presidency. and it may be that other presidents had small, you know, individual problems that raised ethical concerns, but i've never seen anything as massive as this. so i think you're right that as jack smith does this investigation, it's about classified documents, but once it also becomes about obstruction of justice that opens up a whole lot of other things. because again, as we talked about earlier, the motive for that would be important. just to obstruct justice -- like how does the government make a

case that moving boxes was intended to obstruct justice unless you can show why he moved those boxes. and so getting into all of these relationships with other countries and his business relationships all is -- picking away, putting together that puzzle to try to establish what that motivation might have been. >> so neal, i'm thinking as mary's answering this question about the durham probe. durham hand picked, cherry picked, if you will, by bill barr, travels with him overseas. we learn only at the end, a year and a half after trump has left office, that what barr's sort of much ballyhooed by the right probe actually found was evidence of criminality on the part of donald trump. and what -- i made this very unscientific chart, but mar-a-lago was believed to be about classified documents and national security and obstruction of justice. it's clear from this "new york times" story it's also about rank corruption, and it's about foreign governments maybe being entangled with these other three things -- classified documents,

national security, corruption, and obstruction of justice. it is clear that whenever any federal investigator including mr. durham but certainly jack smith starts turning over rocks, there's all sorts of stink underneath. >> that's exactly right. and ukraine before that, as well. so this is a long-standing pattern by donald trump. but also a long-standing pattern is the fact that the defense almost admits the game. like when you were showing the video of christina bobb, his attorney, saying these documents were behind a locked door in a secure compound that not everyone can get in -- >> the chinese would disagree with that, right? >> the chinese would disagree. b, that describes my house. i mean, you know -- and i -- before i did all the supreme court stuff, i was national security adviser at the justice department. i can guarantee you that having a lock on your door doesn't insulate you from a charge for mishandling classified information if you bring it home. and so you know, yes, all of these things you're talking about and what mary's talking

about, about the foreign policy pieces, are important. but also this is a pretty simple investigation of stolen documents and obstruction into the investigation. and the last thing i want to do is to have a prosecutor whether it's jack smith or merrick garland or someone else feeling they have to chase down every motivation before indicting what you already know. the clock is ticking, and you know, this does not seem like a complicated case at the end of the day. and so yes, there might be motivations that should be uncovered later on, but that is no excuse to not indict now on what you do know. obstruction of justice of these classified documents under section 1519 is a 20-year felony. it's a serious thing. and it has to be serious because we entrust so many people with our nation's secrets, and you can't just bring them home or bring them to your golf club. >> and then have your lawyers lie about them. >> exactly. >> neal, thank you very much for being with us at the table. mary, michael, stick around a

little bit longer. after the break, 849 days after the insurrection, there are still new arrests this week. one of the accused used to work for the fbi. we'll bring you that story next. . ♪ ♪ but i manage it well. ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪ jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. jardiance may cause serious side effects including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction, and don't take it if you're on dialysis.

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tourist visit. senior law enforcement official telling nbc news that an ex-fbi official who allegedly urged rioters to kill officers during the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol was previously the supervisory special agent in charge of -- wait for this -- home-grown violent extremism for the fbi new york field office's joint terrorism task force. jared wise, who was arrested earlier this week, allegedly shouting at officers at the capitol, quote, i am former law enforcement. you're disgusting. you are the nazi. you are the gestapo. you can't see it. shame on you! shame on you! shame on you! then his fellow rioters, yeah, f them, yeah, kill them, kill them, kill them, kill them. wise was an fbi agent for 13 years. he had that job until 2017. his arrest coming as

intelligence agencies re-examine their approach post january 6th. "politico" reporting, quote, the department of homeland security's office of intelligence and analysis notified congress that it is implementing a series of organizational changes after allegations that its staff mishandled intelligence collection and dissemination in the lead up to january 6th and during the civil unrest in portland in 2020. joining our conversation, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence, and msnbc national security analyst. mary mccord and michael steele are with us. frank, your reaction to this, and then i have to ask you to go on the record with thoughts about the new york office. it is the same office where mr. mcgonagle also has been charged with and indicted with many criminal acts. what's going on in new york? >> yeah, i'll get to new york in a second, although i think this is less about new york and more about what we're seeing across

the board with law enforcement and trump. but let's put this in perspective and then talk about how we deal with this. this guy, wise, is essentially someone who is not respected, he did 13 years, he's booted out on an entry-level management job, by the way, he was a squad supervisor over domestic terrorism squad. not respected, basically told, hey, we gave you a shot at management, it's not working. he leaves. so okay, so he's a former agent. the question is whether this is something reflected throughout federal law enforcement now and what's happening. you and i talked for years about the impact that trump has had on our institutions. there's an obvious line there about eroding credibility in our institutions. he attacks the dod, the dhs. he attacked the doj, fbi relentlessly and the people in it. then he puts people at the head as political appointees such as big barr at doj and jack wolf at dhs. so we've talked a lot about the

obvious erosion of the institutions, but what we haven't talked about and is becoming more and more apparent here with something like this arrest is erosion from the inside out. in other words, are there seeds planted now and clearly there are some, where even the folks responsible for protecting us from domestic terrorism have actually bought into this, the trump maga thinking, to the point where they're actually going to enact violence. they're going to act out violently. this isn't just i'm kind of a conservative republican and maybe trump had something right to say a few years ago. no, now we're seeing this guy that had joined up for the fbi was inside the building, breached security, and as you said, repeatedly encouraging the crowd to kill police officers. he was a cop. he was a federal cop. an fbi agent. but now he's telling the crowd to kill the cops, trying to protect the capitol. the question becomes what do we do about it. this is the challenge. so to think the fbi is a

monolith, right, and not impacted like the rest of society, is dangerous. that means that chris wray at the fbi has got to do things like secretary of defense austin has done in the dod and, god bless that effort, that's a massive effort, which is to try to identify incoming violent extremists before they get in, and then after they're on board because i have to tell you, i think there's more coming. i think there's more revelations coming about who was president inside and outside that capitol. my sources tell me there were retired fbi agents clearly attending the rally and in the march to the capitol. even if they weren't inside. we already know an active duty dea agent was arrested for breaching security inside the capitol. i can tell you i worked alongside somebody at a very high level who i jaw-droppingly saw on fox news red faced and screaming about the search warrant at mar-a-lago and then

spouting conspiracy theory fabrications like he's gone off his rocker. he was completely sane and respected when i worked with him in the fbi. so to think that they're not immune, they -- they're immune, they're not immune. the question is vetting and how you continue that vetting. i know, for example, the fbi has a unit internally that looks at social media, that looks at applications and candidates and then does it going forward. i know there are five-year reinvestigations and polygraphs where they redo your applicant investigation like you're brand new every five years. that may not be enough to single out and ferret out people who have bought into the maga lies. >> frank, how do you eradicate the damage that someone who -- even a disrespected 13-year of the fbi has authority, how do you erase the damage that his

legitimacy and resume brought to the insurrection and the larger, broader movement that sits at that intersection of donald trump and domestic violent extremism? >> yeah, there's two -- two ways that have to -- you have to approach, this and they have to be done simultaneously. so it's the incoming screening process has got to get -- has to be shifted and pivoted so that you can identify this. even experimenting which is what i'm hearing is being done in polygraph circles around the community which is there's even new polygraph theories about polygraphing for indications of violent extremism and racism. it's very fascinating. i'm learning more about that. things like that need to be implemented. some police departments are doing that, by the way. and then with regard to people already on board, wow. so the five-year reinvestigation has to be ongoing. it used to be, yep, we going to put you under a microscope every five years. but between those five years,

you're kind of -- you know, free to do what you want to do. and even this concept of looking at your social media, well, if you want to turn over all of your social media, that works. if you want to hide that private chat room you're in with the proud boys, that's not going to work. so we've got to get better at that. most of all, you know what the military does when there's a helicopter crash or something awful happens, there's a death in training? they call a time-out across the entire military. they go time-out, we're issuing training generals and colonels are going to get in front of their troops and well going to say this and play this video, and they're good to read them the riot act with regard to safety, security, whatever happened, right. that needs to be happening inside the fbi, coming straight from chris wray and all the agents in charge of field field offices. >> i want to bring michael and mary in on this. i feel like waiting for chris wray is like waiting for john roberts but i'll let michael and mary be the judges. we have to sneak in a quick break first. we'll all be right back. ight ba.

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i think that frank's incredibly important point, there are a lot of communities around this country who have seen this and witnessed this sort of police behavior other police behavior for some time. so now, it is kind of permeated up at this sort of national exposed level where you are finding out, oh, you mean there are agents would are secretly proud boys and white nationalists. and these are the same folks who before they got to the capitol steps were having encounters with black and brown americans across the country at all levels. so, now, everybody gets to see about policing an the general concern about the kinds of men and women who are called into that service. and so frank is exactly right. they've got to change their game. they have to change their approach. don't expect that to come from

congress because that is part of the rot. jim jordan is not credible on anything let is a loan getting to the bottom of what happened on january 6. so set that aside it is the institutions themselves that will have to come up. and i thought the example of what happened in the military is a good one. you know, timeout. everybody, across all services, now is the time to do a check down and get had this right so it doesn't happen again or we avoid this problem in the future. policing at all levels, especially now that we're in post january 6 environment, nicolle, has to come at it in a much more deliberative and creative way to deal with the rot that is beginning to form, if it hasn't already taken hold inside of their institutions. >> from the outside, mary mccord, chris wray looks terrified of criticism from the right or indifferent to credible news accounts and charges from his own justice department of

acts like this from people once inside his own agency. do you know which is the truth and what do you think he should do? >> well, it is interesting, because he's been very forthright i think in testimony about the threat from racial and ethnically motivated domestic extremisms and for many years fbi directors didn't really talk very much about that threat. and he's pretty forthcoming there. but he has been far less forthcoming about the problem within the fbi. and that reporting reminds me of the email that was revealed i think a week after after january 6 and an email to paula beat, number two at the fbi, with someone with a knowledge of the position of agents and talked about, you know, the problems within. that there were many people within the bureau that he thought were sympathetic to the insurrectionists. we haven't really seen anything

happening as a result of that. >> mary mccord, frank figliuzzi and michael steele, thank you for being with us today. don't go anywhere for those of you watching. late this afternoon, we got a look at what the jury got to watch in the ex president's civil rape and defamation trail. in his own words on camera. we'll bring that to you next. i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. when it comes to reducing sugar in your family's diet, the more choices, the better. that's why america's beverage companies are working together to deliver more great tasting options with less sugar or no sugar at all. in fact, today, nearly 60% of beverages sold contain zero sugar. different sizes? check. clear calorie labels? just check. with so many options, it's easier than ever to find the balance that's right for you. more choices.

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the [ bleep ]. >> if you look over the last million years that is largely true. not always but largely true. unfortunately or fortunately. >> you consider your to be a star? >> i think you could say that, yeah. >> hi, everyone. it is 5:00 in new york. what is the front-runner for the republican nomination for president who thinks as of today that he is a star and that stars could do that. that is part of the newly released deposition of the disgraced twice impeached once indicted ex-president doubling down under oath and now in front of the entire country and world on comments he first made as far as we know in the access hollywood tape about where you could grab women. trump gave the deposition in october. it was played yesterday before a jury in new york. they will begin deliberations on tuesday in the defamation trial in which e. jean carroll accused

donald trump of raping her in the 1990s. it is a charge he denies. it is likely the jury's only exposure to donald trump who now has until sunday at 5:00 p.m. to change his mind about not testifying. his legal team has told the judge that it is not making any defense or providing any witnesses. in the deposition there was also this really important moment. are where trump attack e. jean carol and saying that she is not his type. watch. >> she's a accusing me of rape, of raping her. the worse thing you could do, the worst charge and you know -- you know it's not true too. you're a political operative, also. you're a disgrace. but she's accusing me and so are are you, of rape. and it never took place. and i willel it you, i made that statement and i said, well it is politically incorrect. she's not my type. and that is 100% true.

she's not my type. >> comments i'm not showing trump for kicks. it is really important and potentially legally. because it is not the only time trump said that e. jean carroll was not his type as an excuse or part of his alibi for not raping her. but earlier in the deposition, he was shown this photo. that is his first wivive anna on the wife and that is e. jean carroll who he mistaked for marla maples, his aedge willed wife at the time of the ins den. watch. >> i don't even know who the woman -- let's see. i don't know who -- it is marla. >> you say marla in this photo? >> that is marla. yeah. that is my wife. >> which one are you pointing to? >> here. >> of course you just pointed to e. jean carroll. >> who is that -- >> and the woman on the right is

your then wife. >> this is the picture. i assume that is john johnson. because it is very blurry. >> it is time for that mocha test, potato, tomato, tamale and it is the last week of e. jean carol on the stand testifying under oath that i'm here because trump raped me followed by three straight days of powerhouse witnesses bolstering her case against him. the twice impeached disgraced indicted ex-president on video and under oath is where we begin with the hour with our favorite reporters and friends. katie phang is here,k also joining us mia wiley, and now the president of a leadership conference on civil and human rights, charlie sykes is back, the editor at the bulwark and "new york times" reporter susan craig is here. susan, let me start with you. access hollywood tape is one of

these political pillars, right. it will stand as a pillar of what voters will tolerate from someone who will become a future president. but in this instance, it is an admission that the act of grabbing women between their legs is something that he believes today that -- that depo was in october, so he believed in october it was something he could do because stars could do that and when asked under oath, are you a star he said, yeah. it is an incredible admission of conduct he believes he can carry out today. >> right. and in a very different tone than he took in 2016, right after that tape came out, "the washington post" was first to have that. it was an incredible moment in american politics. and there was that -- when it hit everybody, everybody was like, it is over. and he spent i think whatever it was, 24, 48 hours it seemed like much longer and then he came out and was quite contrite about what he said and i think today we're seeing with the release of

this tape, you're seeing in his own words, in fak, that he feels that it is a right of a star to do that, that they've been doing it forever and that everybody knows that they could just take what they want in this context. >> you know, katie phang, if you go back to some of the most dramatic moments in the trials that were unearthed based on evidence, unearthed by journalists and journalists in other places, i don't know that there is a confession on tape as stark as trump saying that he today, as he stands trial in this civil case, for sexual assault, believes that today he could still carry out the acof grabbing women between the legs. are you aware of any such confession? >> i'm not. and to susan's point, i think when you saw some type of contrition, it was obviously fake contrition. it was done because he had an evangelical vice president nominee running with him for the oval office. from a legal perspective, you can't get any more clear. he says that he was allowed to

do it because he thought that he was a star. putting aside the inappropriateness of his lawyer trying to intervene to try to correct things thereafter in terms of his deposition testimony, that access hollywood, whether it was the kryptonite or the silver bullet that needs to take him out, from a lethal perspective, that is him. that is not something forcing him, even if the deposition setting, nicolle, to say something. he's in the casualness of that setting with billy bush to be able to make those statements and he does them willingly. and then when he's under oath on a videotaped deposition, and let me tell you something, when you are preparing for trial, you want the videotape depositions because in a event like this when with you don't have the party participating in the trial, the jury could still see and hear very palpably the lack of contrition and the embracing by a defendant who has been accused of civil rape and

defamation that he just thinks it is okay. not only does he think it is okay, but it is given to him like some deitty because he has stardom in his pocket. because of that very elegantly you see the presentation of a complete pana plea of a case from e. jean carol's defense team. and to leave the jury hearing from donald trump's own mouth those words, that is the last thing they're going to hear before they go into closing arguments an i'm going to bet my bottom dollar that because roddy kaplan, the royal has this sandwich is what we call it, she's going to start first in closings and then joe tacopina and robbie is the rebuttal and that is the last thing that you'll hear. you'll hear more of the donald trump stuff during the closing arguments. >> so let me play more for you mia wiley. this is trump distorting, if that is a strong enough word.

saying that carroll told anderson cooper that rape is sexy. watch. >> she faked it with great emotion. she actually indicated that she loved it. okay. she loved it. until commercial break. in fak, i think she said it was sexy, didn't she. it was very sexy to be raped. didn't she say that. >> the question i'm asking, is did she say in that interview that she loved being sexually assaulted by you. >> something to thatesque. you'll have to take a look at that interview yourself. i believe she said rape was sexy. >> you know, many problems with being delusional, this is one of them. here is what carroll said to anderson cooper, mia. oh, i'm sorry, what she said, i don't have the tape, but she said, quote, i was not on the ground and ravaged, which the word rape carries connotations.

this is not sexual, it just hurt. most people think of rape of being sexy, they think of fantasy, whatever you think of that it is not what donald trump testified to and i wonder, mia, again, this jury is going to hear him say that today he thinks he's a star and can carry out the act of grabbing women between the legs. he's saying she loved what i did to her. it is really anything but a denial of the physical conduct that she alleges. >> it is a denial of the physical conduct and a misrepresentation of what rape actually is. i mean, what e. jean carroll was saying is that we have to stop thinking about rape as sex. we have to start thinking about it as violence and recognizing it is an abuse of power. and that is part of the point about the access hollywood tape. and donald trump doubling down on it is, i got the power, i'm the star, i can do what i want.

and to katie's really important point here, what -- what kaplan has to prove, what e. jean carol has to prove in this case, which is not a criminal trial, is, look, more likely than not, what the jury has to believe is if we don't have 100% of the evidence, we sure got enough to tell us this is a guy behaving the way he behaves. that is called propensity. we talk about conforming to the character of the act under scrutiny here and in this case rape, here is a person in the form of donald trump doubling down in every incident saying, yeah, i'm that guy. i think of women as things, as just bags of flesh i can do with what i want. an that is exactly what they're demonstrating with the evidence that is donald trump's own

words. so, two kay's point, donald trump is testifying whether he's shown up in this trial or not. and the reality of mr. taco pena's defense about not putting him on is because they don't think that he could fix it for himself. and what is we have to remember when we don't see the defendant on the stand. >> i want to show you more of the deposition. i have to say it is truly shocking to watch him. he looks so diminished. not in terms of character, because he never projected much of that. but he looks -- he looks feeble. and he would love to talk about mocha tests in his first term as president. let me play some more of this and talk about the content as well as the performance value. this is trump saying that e. jean carroll is mentally sick. >> when you say in here, i don't know this woman. and have no idea who she was --

who she is. even though you're using the present tense, you're referring back to your knowledge as of when she first made the allegation. >> i still don't know this woman. i think she's a whack job. i have no idea. i don't know anything about this woman other than what i read in stories and what i hear. i know nothing about her. >> okay. well i guess the distinction i'm trying to make when the allegation came out in 2019, i think it is your testimony you had no idea who she was. >> i still don't. >> well today you know she's a plaf in a case suing you. >> oh, yes, that i know. i know nothing about her. i think she's sick. mentally sick. >> how do you think that will convey to a jury? >> well, i can't speak to the jury. but we just seen some great moments in presidential rhetoric, haven't we. the jury got to see donald trump the man in the full.

they got to see his bluster, his bragging, when he insulted the attorney and said she's not my type and you're not either. and i have to say, sitting here, i find it extraordinary the way that this is all coming back because we all remember october 8th, 2016, when the access hollywood tape dropped what the reaction was. and i think we could still look back on that whole weekend, that whole episode as one of the real turning points in american politics. >> yeah. >> where so many republicans were horrified, they looked at him and said we are learning that wants the office once held by abraham lincoln and we're not going to go along with it and yet they all pretty much decided that they were going to embrace him. and that is one of the turning points. and since then, we've had one acquiescence after another. the other thing that strikes me over and over again as i'm watching and reading about all

of this, is the number of evangelical christians who look donald trump and say this is our champion. this is our hero. this is all about god and virtue and bringing back traditional values. there is that whole weird trump as jesus cult. and i have to say, it is remarkable that -- to imagine anyone looking at that man in that video, listen to him essentially smirkingly say, yeah, i'm a star and i'm able to grab women any time i want. and throwing out these kinds of insults an thinking, yeah, that man should be president. much less a role model. there is not one of those evangelicals who would want donald trump to be a youth pastor at their church. but they're willing to put him back in the oval office and i that i this is extraordinary. so we are having this coming back and i think maybe of us thought that after the access hollywood thing, that is baked in. the americans have accepted this. 26 women come forward and it is almost like a non-story.

i asked earlier this week, before this trial, when was the last time that donald trump was asked about the sexual assault allegations. when was the last time any media outlet reporter, any one of the women's names much less their charges and now it is all coming back. and hopefully there will be some accountability at long last. >> yeah. and that is on all of us. on my piece of that, jessica leads is back in the news because she's one of the witnesses. but you're absolutely right. let me just follow up with you, charlie. i mean, the other piece of this is that whatever part of trump saying that is not my type, let any of the republican men who defended him or stayed with him, which is all of them, nobody stopped supporting him after access hollywood and after 26 women came forward and credibly accused him of sexual misconduct and aharassment and assault. he can't even tell the

difference between e. jean carol, is she's not my type and marla maples his second wife. everything he said is b.s. >> it is a very revealing and awkward moment for him. how inappropriate to say there was a certain type of women that he -- that he would be willing to rape. it is a strange way of putting it. you either did or did not. no, that is not the kind of women that i would rape or sexual assault. but being confronted by the fact that she's a dead ringer for marla maples. and at least there is some part of his lizard brain that realized he made a mistake well it was just so blurry. but what an awkward moment for him. >> let me put the picture up. i don't think it reads blurry. could i see it one more time? no, no blur there. and i don't have the greatest of eyes. i wan to show you a little bit more of the way he answered questions in this deposition. this is trump saying he swooned e. jean carroll.

>> you say she completely made up a story that i met her at the doors of this crowded new york city department store and within minutes swooned her. do you see that? >> yeah. >> what is swooned? >> that would be a word maybe accurate or not having to do with talking to her and talking to do an act that she said happened. which didn't happen. and it is a nicer word than the word that started with an "f." and this is a word that i use because i thought it would be inappropriate to use the other word. and it didn't happen. >> i'm not sure i could follow all of that myself. but, you know, something you and i come back to over and over again is the damaging impact of trump's own depositions. the unwieldingness of trump as a

witness in his own cause and defense. >> right. i think the hole he's dug here already in front of the jury is pretty deep. i don't think they're going to put him in front of the jury again. the hole will just get larger. and i think one of the things that has been really compelling to me about this case, when i've been watching this, is that her friends who she called afterwards, you know, on that moment when she got out of bergdorf goodman, she called some people and they remember to this day what happened and what she said to them. and that to me is so powerful. when i first -- "the new york times" has done a lot of reporting and my colleagues have on it. they've interviewed those women, we heard them again when they were on the stand this week, reports of it. and that to me is the most powerful thing. memories are tricky. and people do make things up. but when you have evidence and conversations like that, that is how you build a great story and

that is how you build a great case and i think that when you think about what the jury is looking at, it is a civil trial, this threshold is lower than at a criminal trial and i'm not saying that it -- there wouldn't have been a criminal trial and this wouldn't have been successful, but i think there is a lot of powerful evidence they're going to get when they get this case next week. >> susan, it is exact topic that our colleague lisa rubin writes about, that we're seeing legal trial work borrow some of the successful tactics of investigative journalism, largely your colleagues and the me-too investigations. and you also have a legal victory against trump, "the new york times." congratulations on that. >> i'm very happy about it. it is crazy that the suit, we felt was frivolous and we argued that in court. but to see it be thrown out is just a big weight off of our shoulder. you never know where these things will go and i just want to give a shout out both to "the

new york times" and my colleagues that i worked with including russ beutner, who is excellent reporter and our general counsel david mcgraw that argued this in court. and what we do and the work we do if this hadn't gone our way could have redefined how reporters could do their job in the stay. this. i'm glad it is not just thrown out, it will pay our costs and this will top him from going forward and filing another stupid lawsuit. >> i'm not sure that he'll do that. we welcome optimism around here. but the work that you and your colleagues do is important to us in our ability to understand any politician, so especially him. so we're glad that you prevailed as well. thank you for showing up this hour. speaking of news, and the value of journalists, there is breaking news out of georgia on the plot to overturn president

joe biden's 2020 victory there. and we'll bring that to you. and the steady stream of ethical questions and quandaries surrounding justice clarence thomas, the drip, drip, drip, is more like a flood. newest report on money from a conservative activist secretly paid to ginni and the big question that is still out there, what if anything will be done about it. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. go anywhere. - especially when it comes to your finances. - are you a certified financial planner™? - i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. your yard is your sanctuary. where you should feel free.

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off. there is a big new development in the probe into the 2020 election by fulton county district attorney fani willis. washington post just thousand dropping a story and reporting that at least eight of the 16 georgia republicans who convened in december of 2020 to declare donald trump the winner of the presidential contest despite his loss in that state have accepted immunity deals from atlanta area prosecutors investigating alleged election interference. that is according to a lawyer for the electors. prosecutors with the office of fulton county d.a. fani willis told the eight they will not be charged if they testify truthfully in his sprawling investigation into efforts to over turn the victory in georgia. we're back. this is a big one. katie phang, take us through what would happen next? who is above the actual fake electors, who would fani willis

be pursuing more testimony about? >> yes, so let's break it down for one second, nicolle and realize that just with the offer of immunity, that does not mean that the eight electors who have offered to accept the offer from d.a. fani willis, that it means they are coming or -- to say that yes, i broke laws and give me immunity so i could implicate others. the acceptance is not money admission of guilt. that being said. what we know about fani willis, the extent of hadar investigation so far and the fact that she has a history of being able to craft together particularly complex investigations into a case sometimes implicating crimes like rico, would indicate that she has cast a very wide net and in the campaign of her making sure that she puts the requisite amount of pressure on the targets of this investigation, there are people that are now coming forward and saying, you know what, it is worth my while

to take this deal to sit down and be able to say what i know. which kind of raises the question, though, nicolle, some of the electors have been interviewed if not testified concerning what happened when they convened illegally and improperly to be able to vote in a different slate than one that would have elected joe biden. it kind of suggests to me is there the possibility that they weren't forth right. maybe they weren't completely telling the truth. the other complicating issue, they're all represented by the same attorney defense. that is not a problem if they've waived any potential con flick of interest. but we do know from reporting that there are some electors that one did commit a crime. so it is very complex and it is very complicated. but i think this gets fani willis one definitive step closer to being able to say who am i going to fill in the blanks

to the indictment that i'm presented to the grand jury. >> let me read more from "the washington post" to you. the meeting of trump's electors on december 14th, 2020, despite republican governor brian kemp's certification of joe biden's win, is a key target of her investigation. along with trump's phone calls to multiple state officials. and his campaign's potential involvement in an unauthorized breach of election equipment in coffee county, georgia. mark meadows is traveling to georgia around this time and lindsey graham is on the phone with georgia officials around this time. this is when jeffrey clark would like doj to send a letter to overturn biden's win at this time. this is time that a u.s. attorney in georgia resigned because of the investigations he's asked to open. this is when rudy giuliani is essentially destroying the reputations of shay moss and ruby freeman for fake

allegations of voter fraud in georgia. now trump doesn't stay president by just that, but it was a hot he bed for the branch of government. >> yes. indeed. and i think this is the poin that there is the are relationship to the point around how the d.a. is building her case and what she's got. because now we've got people who we know will be and have ever reason to be completely forthcoming. who did they talk to, what did they understand? and how directly does it link to these all of these pieces we know. and also there is a little question in my mind about where and how are we going to see this sequencing because we also have the federal investigation. that will include this potential conspiracy, what looks like a conspiracy or fake electors and donald trump is personally and actively engaged at multiple

levels as is rudy giuliani and we know that the special grand jury that was impanelled said, oh, lots of witnesses lie, we believe. so, the connection between these electors, what they know, who they talked to, but also exactly how it links to these other folks, that we know have been implicated and having some connection to conversation and action and that means potentially connection to conspiracy because that is what a conspiracy is. and that is why this links up in process to making clear for the rest of us and potentially the american public if it comes to indictment, exactly who is potentially culpable here. and we know there are a lot of names very closely connected to donald trump including donald trump himself. >> mia, let me ask you this. if these eight trump fake electors are granted immunity deals an jack smith happens to also be investigating the fake

electors plot, does he also have to offer them immunity deals? >> he didn't have to do anything that he doesn't want to do. he will assess his case and the way that makes most sense for his case. but obviously one of the things he will assess is how much information is valuable to me and who are my true targets and where am i most likely to build my facts. so part of the process also includes figuring out the people with whom you say you do a deal with me, you're going to be better off in the long run. and then know that you're building a case, a strong case. >> john eastman, john eastman, charlie sykes. let me read you one piece of this story and ask you about him. georgia was among seven states where the trump campaign and local gop officials aink ra -- aink raed for alternate elekkors while election challenges made their way through the courts.

they have explored whether the appointment of alternate electors in the creator of elector certificates broke the law. another question is whether trump campaign officials and allies initiated the strategy as part of a larger effort to overturn biden's overall victory during the counting of electoral votes on january 6, 2021. there is copious evidence in the public arena from the work of the january 6 select committee that i think adam kinzinger pointed a blueprint for a coup. it is a a document created by john eastman and handed around the west wing. apparently lots of hours of conversations with counsel for the vice president and counsel for the president about it being both illegal and in violation of the electoral count act and unconstitutional. meaning it would fail not 7-2 as eastman first asserted but 9-0 before the u.s. supreme court. do you think fani willis has her eyes on john eastman?

>> well i think, there is a lot of different targets here. you think about all of the evidence that we have here. we have the blueprint. as you just described. we have the audio tape of donald trump asking them to find the votes. there are -- there is a mountain of evidence, the question now is what is the legal theory and what are they going to pursue. and katie mentioned something that i find intriguing and i've heard this before, i was talking to some legal experts at law fair yesterday on my podcast and they suggested that fani willis may be looking at using the rico statutes to pursue this case. it was created to go after organize crimes and mobsters. but if she is pursuing that kind of a sweeping theory of the case, trying to tie together the conspiracy, then we're talking about real legal problems not just for donald trump but for all of the people in trump world that you have been mentioned. so i'm really interested to find out exactly, you know, how sweeping that net might be and

whether or not rico is a possibility. and i know it is kind of a leap. but yesterday the seditious conspiracy convictions in washington, d.c. do demonstrate that prosecutors can use these more sweeping conspiracy statues to bring charges and to get convictions. so we may be heading to a dramatic conclusion down in georgia. >> let me read you, katie phang, what the washington report says. some of the electors will not be charged raises new questions about the scope of fani willis' previous identified as criminal targets in her investigation. the-e lectors did so without any promise that they would offer incriminating evidence in return and they remain unified in their innocence and not wear of any criminal activity. in telling the truth, they continue to say they've done

nothing wrong and not aware of anything else doing something wrong much less criminal said a person familiar with the investigation. among the electors who appear to remain targets are david schaefer, who presided over the gathering and john still a state senator who was state finance chair for the party and told congressional investigators he played a role confirming elector's identities and admitted them into the room where they convened at the georgia capitol. and the overlapping investigations an the passage of time and the incredible work of journalists and "new york times" and "the washington post" and nbc's own reporting on this. there is so much evidence of what this looks like not just in georgia but nationally. how do you think it plays into a potential rico prosecution? >> well, the idea is when you're doing an investigation, you could actually piggy back on

information that is coming not only through the media, through publications to the sources that you just talked about, but also when you're offering immunity, you could either do it a couple of ways, right. you could offer everybody immunity that a target of this investigation and see who nt whats to come forward to cooperate. you could also cherry pick the targets. from what we understand and it is very tight lid on the fani willis investigation, but the immunity deal was offered to everybody and it was first come, first serve. and we know the bottom line is the see though evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, only lasts until you find the weakest link in the chain of the conspiracy and it suggests that if fani willis, who has expertise, let me be clear, this is not a prosecutor is just taking a wild kind of, you know, guess at how to prosecute a rico charge, this prosecutor fani willis does rico all of the time. and remember, this is a state prosecution.

this is not a federal prosecution. so this is definitely within her wheelhouse to be able to pursue charges. if fani willis is seeking and chasing down a rico conspiracy, it is not just going to be the low level boots on the ground soldiers, it is going to necessarily implicate the mark meadows an the rudy giuliani and the john eastman and the sidney powells an then you know what really, let's just speak bluntly among friends. is the ultimately target donald trump? he's on tape. we just talked in the last segment about donald trump being on tape and in his videotape is a deposition and admitting to grabbing women between the legs because he could do it. we also have him on tape. demanding, ordering that the 11,000 some votes be found for him. you also have brad raffensperger, the secretary of state of georgia who is participated in this process as well with the grand jury. so, you know, i'm envisioning this very large chart, you know,

this youth war room for fani willis with a lot of people's faces on a wall and she's just linking them altogether through the evidence and thousand it is what are you going to tell me under this offer of immunity because we have other people that we're going to be taking down if you actually want to be part of this good side and be on the right side of the history now or do you want to be sitting there with a jail -- and be a defendant that we're going to prosecute in court. >> wow, charlie, i will resist a wire reference because we don't have much time for -- or kari mathison. the web has been presented and laid out and that is most definitely what her wall looks like somewhere. i wonder if he'll ever see that wall. for rolling with us for this breaking news, katie phang, mia wiley and acharlie sykes, from the bottom of our hears. thank you. when we come back sh the newest and latest bombshell reporting about serious financial and ethical questions concerning supreme court justice clarence thomas and this time it is reporting about his wife

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drip, drip, drip. leonard leo, a key figure in a network of nonprofits that work to get conservative judges nominated, strucking kellyain conway to make arraignments for ginni thomas to be paid tens of thousands of dollars for consulting work and just as one does, when everything is absolutely 100% aboveboard, they asked that ginni's name be left off the billing paperwork. not menged or written down. this revelation frames leonard leo as much more than simply an ideology an spirit ally of justice thomas but with someone with an undisclosed financial relationship with his wife. before we go on, we want to tell that you nbc news has not independently verified documents reported on by "the washington post" or independently verified

its reporting. we have reached out to all of the parties involved. thomas's have not responded. although ginny thomas has said previously that she kept her and her husband's career separate. kelly an conway has not responded by the statement reads the work ginni thomas did here did not involve anything connected with either the court's business or with other legal issues, end quote. adding on the topic of keeping ginni thomas's name off the paperwork, knowing how disrespectful people could be, i have always tried to protect the privacy of justice thomas and ginni. joining our conversation, reporter sean bob ert, one of the reporters who shared a by line and with us gabe roth, creckive director of fix the court. let me start with you on the reporting. take me through exactly what we know for sure was left out and

what we know for sure amounts to the reasoning at the time? to protech their privacy? because it is always about us. we're going to gossip about her consulting work? >> the statement by leonard leo, said, yes he takes steps to protect the privacy of clarence thomas and his wife. of note here is that the dom -- the documents in question were internal invoices between a con tracker, that is kelly anne and a nonprofit. so i'm curious exactly why he thought he needed to take an extra step to protect their privacy begin that this was an internal communication. >> let me read through inside the mind of a conspiracy theorist. but the post is reporting leo

told conway that he waned to give ginny thom another 25,000 and he emphasizes that the paperwork should have no meng of ginni, the polling company sent the judicial education project a $25,000 bill that day. per leo's instructions it listed the purpose as supplement for constitution polling and opinion consulting. in all, according to the documents, the polling company paid thomas's firm $80,000 between june 2011 and june 2012 and it expected to pay $20,000 more before the end of 2012. do we know if this financial relationship was ongoing if it redates or is this all of the documents show at this poin. >> this is a snapshot in time. and, you know, there are a couple of things we don't know. there is a lot we don't know. we don't know the precise nature of the work that ginni was paid for. we don't know whether leonard leo arranged other work or pages

for her. we don't know if ginni thomas has continued to work for the polling company in subsequent years. so there are a lot of unanswered questions. you by think what these documents do show is a revealing moment, we often don't have much information about the income, the sources of income for the justices' family members on disclosure forms. they don't have to list the clients of their consulting firms for example in this case. so, this is significant because it shows, number one, that there was, you know, that it shows the source of some of this money and number two, i think the other significant detail here is the original source of the money, the judicial education project, and the subsequent years and even that same year did have interest before the courts. the supreme court specifically. and filing amicus briefs on

hot-button issues. >> let me read that reporting. in december 2012, the project submitted an amicus brief challenging a landmark civil rights law aimed at protecting minority voters. the court struck down the voting right acts that which states have to obtain clearance and thomas was part of the majority 5-4 and issuing a concurring opinion in the case arguing that it is unconstitutional. thomas's opinion which was consistent with a previous opinion figured the out come had advocates in their amicus briefsm did he not site the judicial education project brief. now, again, showing it is possible that thomas would have reached this opinion on his own. but the is a appearance of impropriety is undeniable. do you think this line of reporting is pushing against the court in any way that will break

through to them? >> well, you know, i think that there is a judgment call. and the amicus brief, whether someone has interest in a case to require accusal is an unresolved issue, but there is an appearance problem here and i think what complicates that or makes that appearance even worse is what is revealed in these documents which is an effort to keep this secret. >> we were talking in the commercial break, that what appears to be happening in this great careful document sourced reporting in "the washington post" and the propublica reporting is that every document reveals that clarence thomas isn't abiding by the court's own disclosure laws. is that a fair assessment of where we are? >> i would think so. sean is right, that the justices don't have to list clients of their spouses. i think they should if they're

getting $100,000 from a single source. it is almost like laundering money. i'm not saying that i'm getting money from the judicial education project and there was another source where she got over $200,000 from an interest that filed an amicus brief before the court because we can't find out about it all it said under the disclosure is list liberty consulting, don't tell us who the clients are. that should change. that way he's following the letter of the law. beyond just what sean has been reporting on, the number of gifts, private planes and yachts and sculptures, and tuition gifts to his grand nephew that thomas has received, many of them, if not all, should have been reported and it is unique that we have a justice that is so impacted or so -- has received so much largesse from a single source who by the way also has interest before the court. >> it is a secret relationship

that the thomas's have with harlon crow. an this is all document driven reporting and these are transactions on paper and no one has denied them, they tried to come up with excuses for them. what is your sense as someone familiar with some of these documents of how much we don't know about the thomas's financial arrangements or entangles with the crows or others. >> i think there is a lot more that we don't know and a lot more coming out in the nem couple of weeks. you mentioned drip, drip, drip, it is going to get super drippy if it hasn't already. and we've seen from the thomas camp of excuses of parsing legislative text and does a grand nephew count as a child and does a flight to indonesia consider hospitality. and that is beside the point. impeachment and removal will never happen or a $50,000 fine which we're past the statue of

limitations, you're liable for a fine and it is never happened in supreme court history. and what we need to learn in terms of entanglements, the sum total is unequaled and it is not normal despite all of the excuses that thomas or his family or friends might give to are have a single individual giving so much money, gifts, trips, what have you, tuition, to a justice. and the public is obviously going to see that and athink, it is corrupt because that is how it looks. >> and the thomas' might think it look corrupt too which is why they hid it. hidden financial arrangements. unbelievable new reporting. sean bobert, thank you for spending time with us. other break for us. we'll be right back. they're called 'small businesses.' but to the people who build them there's nothing 'small' about them. that's why at t-mobile for business...

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hour. just in the last few minutes we learned that a federal judge has imposed longest sentence in a january 6 yet. the judge imposed a 14-year and two-month long sentence for peter swartz who was armed with a wooden tire knocker on january 6. and engaged in a series of assaults on law enforcement officers. including using pepper spray. swart said he regretted the damage january 6 has done but judge was not buying it. telling him, quote, you are not a political prisoner, you are not alexei navalny. we'll be right back. like a red-hot chili pepper, or...your inflamed eyes are so watery they need windshield wipers, it's not too late for another treatment option for thyroid eye disease, also known as t-e-d. to learn more, visit treatted.com that's treatt-e-d.com.

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