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that the republican party in georgia paid more than $200,000 in legal fees to lawyers defending the fake republican electors, the trump supporters who cost played as electoral college electors and the 2020 election. well, tonight, we got news that the 200 grand does not seem like money well spent. tonight's new started with the washington post reporting that at least a pick trump electors have accepted immunity deals. the new york times then advance that reporting that at least one other elector also has a deal, although the persons identity remains unknown.

in other words, a bunch of people are all talking. now, this is all part of fulton county the a funny willis is much broader investigation into all the ways that trump and his allies attempted to overturn the 2020 election in georgia. that includes fake electors scheme, it includes the trump campaign's potential involvement in an authorized breach of election equipment which took place in coffee county in georgia, and who could forget? it includes president trump pressuring the georgia secretary of state to just find 11,780 votes. okay, so other than the $200,000 that appears to have been by the georgia gop defending these fake electors, the other big number to note here is that there were 16 fake electors total in georgia. the washington post reporting shows eight of those electors with immunity deals.

dinnertime suggest nine, but either way, that's all got to make the other electors really nervous, specifically the post points out that at least two of those other fake electors, the once without immunity deals, they appear to remain targets of this investigation. one of whom, a man named david schaffer is the chairman of the georgia republican party. and then, of course, there is the bigger picture here, what does this cooperation at the lower levels of the scheme might mean for the bigger fish. rudy giuliani oversaw the entire fake electors scheme, so i can't imagine that this is a great friday night for rudy giuliani. and then there is senator lindsey graham who despite being a senator from south carolina, also allegedly pressured the georgia secretary of state to throw out some

ballots. and then, of course, there is president trump himself, who is undeniably the center of all of this. we are going to have some expert help working all this not in a second, but before we do, i want to show you one thing from the legal filing that tonight's washington post reporting is based on. this is a transcript of an exchange between one of funny will assist prosecutors and the defense attorney for these fake electors. fani willis's prosecutors says, quote, here's the deal, here's the deal, either elect or he is going to get the submitted the, and he's going to answer the questions, or we are going to leave. and if we leave, or pick up this immunity agreement, and he can be on the indictment. he can be on the indictment. just last week, we got the news that funny willis was warning local law enforcement to be on high alert between july 11th and september 1st because she could announce potential indictments. now this, if i were donald trump, i would make sure my summer travel plans are refundable. joining me now is former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst barb mcquade. barb, thank you for being here. am i right to focus on this exchange between the prosecutor and one of the defense attorneys, where the prosecutor says, his name will be on the indictment, not a potential indictment but the indictment?

>> yeah, i think your reading is fair, alex. the indictment suggest that is not enough but a one, that there will be an indictment. right now, we're kind of sorting out who will be a witness and will be a defender. prosecutors want to go after the bigger fish. some of these people who are fake electors or not household names. they are people who are kind of used as pawns, likely knew what they were doing but they may have some really valuable information that can help provide good incriminating evidence against some of the

people who are higher up and organizing these kinds of schemes, so they are valuable as witnesses. it does not give funny was great pleasure to prosecute some no name person who is a pawn in the scheme. i think they very much want all 16 of them to cooperate, but it's a good number. night is even better. i agree with you in suggesting that -- take it or leave it, you want to be a witness or a defendant, choices up to you. otherwise, you will be on the indictment. does this say to me that there will be an indictment here. >> so, there is a real discrepancy between the defense attorneys for the eight meter deals saying what information they know about criminal activity. from the filing tonight, all the electors, the ones with the immunity to, if united in their collective innocence and defenses and non testified or believe that they or any other elector committed any wrongdoing, much less criminal acts, so then the question is, what do they know? if they don't think they're guilty of anything, and they don't know of any other criminal acts among electors, you pointed this out, does -- do you infer from that that the information they have that has been useful to funny willis's information about people who aren't electors, information about people who are maybe

higher up in the food chain, information about maybe, i don't know, lindsey graham or rudy giuliani or some of the high-level trump officials who are orchestrating this attack? >> yeah, i am not sure what to make of these conflicting statements because they may be in some ways self serving. what they really need probably is a judge to make sure that these lawyers, that these clients are being represented. you have a joint defense, sometimes there can be a conflict of interest there. that is one issue. let's set that aside for a minute. to answer your question, i think that fani willis is not particularly interested in having one fickle active testify against another fake elector. as we have set, these are small fish. if they committed a crime, will roll him into the indictment, and that is fine. but what is more valuable is identifying people of the food chain. how is it that we have take electors coming together in a

number of different states? that is no coincidence that they all come together. what were they told? what was the purpose? was this simply an honest provisional ballot, just in case these fraud claims pan out, so that they have certificates on the books, when the deadline came and went, or did they know that this is all part of this plot? we will tell and i have mike pence take these and say, they created such an issue of confusion, what they're all the votes in georgia and describe those, or at the legislature substitute its own choice for the electors there. will control the outcome of the election and that way. i think what they're more interested in from these electors is not testimony against each other but testimony against higher ups. >> yeah, and that then begs the question, who does not have an immunity deal, right? and what are the implications of that? we know that there are two people who appear to have remained targets in the investigation. one, if it schaffer, who mentioned is the chairman of the georgia republican party. one is georgia senator sean

still, who is the person that confirmed the identity of the electors and let them into the capital, where they proceeded to do their thing, and then kathy latham, who played a key role in the coffee county election system breach. we know that kathy latham no as new counsel. we know that there is a ninth person whose identity remains tbd. do you have any suspicions about who dak could be and or, should i ask, barb, if that person is maybe kathy latham, who has new council, what could be the implications there in terms of criminal charges? >> yeah, it's hard to speculate as to who this might be and what their role is but new prosecutors typically like to work their way up the criminal chain and grant immunity to lower level defendants in exchange for the testimony and their cooperation, the way that prosecutors build cases all the time, so it may be that you take the eight, who already admittedly, and he asked them to talk about the role so some of the people that you just identified. i believe that there is

reporting that david schaffer told them that they had to keep quiet and conceal what it was that they were doing when they were going to prepare this false slate of electors. that suggests that he knew that he was engaging in the wrong -- what you do perhaps have a strong case against him and see if you can flip him and get him to testify about who directed you to do this to compile this list of fake electors? did that come from somebody within the trump campaign and work your way up the chain in that way. it appears that is what funny oscars doing. it's a tried and true method the prosecutors use, and it seems like it's working here. >> let me ask you because you mentioned david schaffer, a person of interest here. the chairman of the georgia gop. the new york times reports tonight that craig dillon, the former deputy counsel, independent counsel in the 19 80s of the iran contra scandal, has been hired to represent david schaffer. ghislaine, the lawyer, specializes in cases involving

racketeering, which is among the charges being made by fani willis. we talked a lot about charges, racketeering, give me context at this. is that a further proof point in your eyes, barb, that that could be a charge that we hear more about the summer? >> you know, it's one belief. people, who handle rico matters also probably handle other kinds of color crimes. i don't know that it is positive, but it is interesting. we also heard before the funny willis has a lot of experience using rico in gang cases, which is a little bit of an untraditional use. typically, you think of rico used an -- organized crime. there are some factors in this case that would make it a good case for rico. rico brings with it typically have penalties, but it allows the prosecutor to bring in a number of different little schemes and put them together under one umbrella, if you can show some sort of united criminal purpose. you've got this thing going on

and coffee county, fake electors over here, you've got intimidation of vote counters over there. you've got brad raffensperger being pressured to find 11,780 votes. so perhaps, rico is a way to pull it together in one case that a jury gets to appreciate the full scope of the criminal conduct that is alleged here. >> barb, we know that giuliani, meadows, epstein and, of course, donald trump are all persons of interest. third names are mentioned in a lot of the context for this. who do you think, if you're looking at the group of individuals, who do you think potentially faces the most legal peril at the structure? >> i think all of them are likely facing legal peril. i think we're aware perhaps of more legal peril of rudy giuliani because so much of what he did was in the daylight. the things he was doing a very publicly going before the legislature in georgia, lobbying and trying to get the votes thrown out, in many ways, his role seems to be very obvious.

it is quite possible that people like mark meadows and option or doing some of the things that were perhaps a little more any showers, that are just does agree just for more egregious than others. it's why you really have to wait and see what allegations come out in an indictment, if any, before you can really decide who faces the most legal peril here. certainly, any of them have been implicated in the scheme in georgia. we know from the grand jury who shared some views about what the special grand jury was doing, they recommended indictments for more than a dozen people. so, it would not surprise me to see all of those people charged and perhaps a rico or conspiracy where they are equally at risk of criminal conviction, prosecution and exposure. >> yeah, there are a lot of known and knowns to paraphrase -- the thing we know tonight, which is fairly explosive and a big deal, even if you've been

following this and be jaded about, there is an indictment coming, and you heard that from fani willis's team on [crowd chanting] that tape. that is what we know at this juncture. barb mcquade, thank you for your time. >> thanks, alex. >> there is so very much to talk about this evening, including the mystery at the witness of morrow legault, whose reported corporation caused donald trump to lash out today. plus, that steady drip of new reporting about the supreme court justice clarence thomas and is conservative activists wife ginni. that is racing all kinds of questions about the web of dark money that surrounds them, and that is coming up next. shingles. the rash can feel like an intense burning sensation and last for weeks. it can make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. 50 years or older? ask your doctor about shingles. so, you found the no7 then... it's amazing! hydrates better than the expensive stuff

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and this is the headline on the north times. president a quits on report of morrow's case. walter jenkins resigned tonight as a special assistant to

president johnson after it became known that he had been arrested here last week on a charge of disorderly conduct involving indecent gestures. one of president johnson's top aides, a men named walter jenkins had just been arrested after he was discovered having sex with another man at a local ymca. jenkins story is a sort of heartbreaking story about the way that closeted gay public officials were treated at the time, but for president johnson, back in 1964, it was also a huge political scandal that required immediate attention from some of his most trusted advisers. and so on the day that story broke and, again, the days to follow, president johnson repeatedly called one of his closest advisers, a man named abe fortes. here is a sample of one of the squalls, because of johnson discussing whether everyone else in the white house had been checked to make sure that they were not gay. >> i'm told that everybody is

here as been checked. >> oh you can't be told anything. i mean you, can't believe them, my gut, on earth. >> john connally called me last night and said that this thing is going to make a big difference, that it's really just three points in texas. >> i would like very much to have a few minutes with you today. >> i've got to make a nationwide television tomorrow but you come right in when you get through and to oked me. jack will find me and michael to it. >> he was a man that president johnson turned to for sensitive matters, like the walter jenkins scandal. he's close to the president. you've probably seen this famous picture of johnson running over him, laughing, we're getting right up in someone's face. the man president johnson is leading over there is abe fortes. it was sort of a surprise when a 1965 lyndon johnson appointed his friend and confidant abe to

be a justice on the u.s. supreme court. he was confirmed by the senate later that year. but even though he had been appointed to the supreme court, amazingly, he never stopped advising president johnson. fortes regularly attended white house staff meetings, while he was on the supreme court. he advised president johnson on secret court deliberations, and he even helped johnson pressure senators who opposed the war in vietnam. now, i know what you are all thinking, that sounds a huge scandal. imagine how people would react today if justice ketanji brown jackson was walking into cabinet meetings at the biden white house and briefing the president on secret court discussions about how they were going to roll on a student loan program. can you imagine? but at the time, the justice's relationship with president johnson was not a big scandal, at least not big enough to get him kicked off the board. eventually though, justice did

find himself in broad and a big scandal, one that ultimately forced him to resign for the supreme court. in 1969, life magazine broke the news for this cover story, justice for this and the 20,000 dollar check. it revealed that justin fortas had accepted $20,000 for the family foundation of a man named luis wilson. lewis was a businessman being investigated for security fraud at the time, and the prospect that the case could be ending up in front of a supreme court justice who he also give money to, that was considered a big deal. justice for this promptly returned the money it taken from mr. wilson, but it was not enough. it was not enough to save his reputation. calls rang out for justice for this to resign, and those calls came mostly from republicans, like california governor ronald reagan. reagan told the sacramento be that there is no question that the confidence in the court has been shaken. and that year, president nixon ordered a justice department to

open an investigation into the justice for us and his relationship with a wealthy businessman who was often. remember, just a few years earlier, abe fortas had been walking in and out at the white house as a sitting supreme court justice. but as far as the public is concerned, that impropriety was nothing compared to the appearance of corruption when abe fortas took that large sum of money from someone who might eventually have business before the court. so justice for this, under immense pressure, resigned. last for two today, we have a another supreme court justice revealed to be taken gifts and trips and engaging in real estate transactions, all of them involving large amounts of money from a wealthy businessman. both justice clarence thomas athlete billionaire arland crow have insisted that the gibson transactions did not need to be disclosed because the billionaire did not have business before the court. this week, we have new

reporting about more disclosed money being funneled to clarence thomas's household, this time to his wife, ginni thomas. the washington post reports that back in 2012, leonard leo, he had of the conservative judicial federal society, that leonard leo directed tens of thousands of dollars in secret payments to ginni thomas. the post reports that we ordered the money to be taken from a nonprofit that he advises and paid to affirm, run by kellyanne conway, that name might ring a bell, at the time, she was a poster. she was a fairly well regarded poster at that. kellyanne conway wasn't instructed by leonard leo to use her firm to pay the money to ginni thomas. but to make sure and leave jimmy thomas's name off the paperwork. leo told conway, quote, no mention of ginni, of course. of course. nbc news has not seen these documents and has not independently verified this report. in a statement to the post, mr. leo defended's actions,

including this decision to keep thomas's name off the paperwork, saying, quote, the work ginni thomas did here does not involve anything connecting either to courts business or with other legal issues knowing how disrespectful, malicious and gossipy people can be, i will try to protect the privacy of justice thomas and ginni. kelly and thomas -- kellyanne conway and the thomas did not respond to requests for comment to the post, but the latest scandal as raised a bunch of new questions for the thomas family and their benefactor's, including questions about the nonprofit that leonard leo used to pay ginni thomas. according to the washington post, that nonprofit was taking in less than $50,000 a year back in 2011. but in 2012, the same years that the secret payments were made to ginni thomas, that same nonprofit suddenly pulled in 1. 5 million in anonymous donations, one point $5 million and $150,000 of that money was spent on poor. who was pouring all of that

money all of a sudden into leonard wheels profit? was that money secretly going to ginni thomas? where was going and experience or expertise did ginni thomas have that would make or someone that you would want handling your polling, especially if you were already polling expert? i'm going to talk to one of the reporters who broke the story and one of the people pushing to fix our broken supreme court coming up next. i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. (wheezing) asthma isn't pretty. it's the moment when you realize that a good day... is about to become a bad one. but then, i remembered that the world is so much bigger than that, with trelegy. because one dose a day helps keep my asthma symptoms under control. and with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy helps improve lung function so i can breathe easier for a full 24 hours.

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single-handedly changed the face of the judiciary. he has many assets, that is not even all he does. it does not really tell all that he does, but i know enough to know the man is a force of nature. >> that force of nature ginni thomas reference there was federal society leader leonard leo. yesterday, we learned that leo at quite a hand and shaping the supreme court and much of the federal judiciary, that leonard leo also reportedly at a hand in atlantic ginni thomas's pockets at least a decade ago. according to the washington post, leo directed and pollster kelley and conway to pay ginni thomas for unknown work in 2011 and 2012. that reporting which nbc is not a verified is the latest in a running list of tom's family ethics scandals. joining us now are gabe roth, executive director of fix the court and emma brown, washington post investigative reporter, who broke that story

about leonard leo directing the secret payment to ginni thomas. >> let me start with you, emily, because you had the breaking news here. there are a lot of questions about this arrangement between leonard leo, kellyanne conway and ginni thomas, what do we know about the judicial education project, a small nonprofit that was making like very little money until the time at which funneled 150,000 -- $100,000 to ginni thomas? >> the judicial education project is the nonprofit that was the source of the $25,000 that leo was saying to go to ginni thomas kellyanne conway's firm. it was, as he said, a small nonprofit not bringing in very much money until 2012, when it reported revenues about one point $5 million and essence grown into just the financial juggernaut of revenues more than 100 billion dollars. it is one part of the sort of interlocking network of

nonprofits that leo has a hand in. he told us that he was an adviser to the judicial education project. in 2012, which was the year that he directed these payments from the judicial education project to ginni thomas, it filed its first brief before the supreme court. it was in the landmark voting rights case, shelby versus holder. that was the case in which the court on 5 to 4 votes struck down a provision of the law that was meant to protect minority voters. clarence thomas voted with them, that narrow majority, but he ran separately to say that he would've gone farther into welcome to the set he endorsed, the same outcome that the judicial education had endorsed in its brief. our report does not show that the nonprofit or its payment to ginni thomas suede clarence thomas because this was a position he had and they pass

but the bar for recusal for a federal judge is a reasonable person will questioned the impartiality of the judge, so ethics experts we talked to are divided on whether he should have recused or accused. >> yeah, then there is the no mention of jimmy caveat, which is to me, like, if anything will run an alarm bell, it's the idea that these payments, we can talk about actually who they are going through, and they are fun up to a third party from just a sunlight point of view, from a transparency, disclosure point of view, how could this be? >> it's very easy to hide that money. i have a 501 to see. i could be paying jimmy thomas right now, checks in the mail. the thing is that one justice is -- so justices do have to fill out a financial disclosure report every year. we know that there are a lot of

emissions that they've had and the financial disclosure report that he's had in the 32 years on the court. all he has the list is his wife's employer, and his wife employer is self employed. . it's liberty consulting. justice thomas is not the same where that money is coming in, so leonard leo pays, ka conway or any of these trump and right-wing officials pay ginni thomas, it does not at the b reported in a public way. so we don't actually know. amongst reporting is great. i think that is the tip of the iceberg, but it's possible that there were many checks over many years. >> yes, all of a sudden, it goes from a small nonprofit and then, all of a sudden, it gets when false and becomes a financial jonah. look, it's lining the pockets of a supreme court justice's wife, who will rule on the side that the same nonprofit would prefer a landmark case on voting rights. i want to ask because we're talking about what we know at

this point about the ethics scandals surrounding the thomas family. can we pull up the timeline of there are a couple of years here where it seems like it is just a cash bonanza. 2001, thomas is talking about the disclosing of the bible he's been given. he's disclosing the gift tuition money from the pass control owners. and then in 2008, harlan crow start shopping maybe $100,000 on tuition. harlan crow builds a heritage museum in thomas's hometown. harlan crow contributes half 1 million dollars to ginni thomas 's employer. liberty center, ironically. the supreme court, of course, strengthen campaign financial restrictions and says it's united. then it's like, we're off to the races. leonard leo offers these payments, we're getting dark money's. it's just a series of years that crow is buying property from thomas. do you have a sense, gabe, that

is -- that there was a kind of peak and then a decline in terms of what was being done and accepted in the way of these gifts, or that there is just no we don't know about that has not been reported? >> i think there is more that we don't know about that has not been reported. it seems the nature's at the gifts, as been reported, it's this yearly luxury trips, weather to the greek aisles, indonesia or new zealand, thomas goes seemingly every year to a resort in upstate new york. so i think some of the payments that you pointed to in the full screen graphic seemed to increase, but this seems to be an ongoing relationship where thomas is just being lavished year after year. sometimes, with leo, there with him. there's a finished painting with mark poleta and clarence thomas, harlan crow, all sitting sitting smoking cigars. that is the symbol of the corruption, that you have these forces that are all joining together, and they are not even adding.

it actually, that's not true, they're hiding most of. we had to do or the reporting to learn about. that one painting is like -- >> it's the underdogs playing poker. >> it is. >> emma, it is like every day there is a new story about this. i wonder from a reporter standpoint, some of this was happening -- some of this have been reported out in years past, but if it is like there is a ground of people that are raising their hands and saying, oh, i have a story about clarence thomas. i'm not going to ask you to reveal your sources because you give us perspective on these sort of chatter that is happening in and around clarence thomas ethics scandals. >> it's a sting, you know, back in 2011, there was a lot of reporting also about thomas and ethics and at that time, it was revealed by a couple of government groups that he had not reported ginni thomas's source of her income or employment for years after initially reporting the when he got the court. there is this bit of reporting

ten, and then a faded away. no, it does seem like we're back in a moment where the media is really scrutinizing thomas and other justices. it is visit a moment where the court, the scrutiny is not going to go away. >> that then sort of goes to your ands, gave, in terms of what can be done aside from casting a very close eye on what's been happening at the supreme court. what kind of reforms are even possible. i did not realize that sheldon whitehouse and hank johnson in the house are sending letters to the judicial conference of the ignited states, which is an agency charged with administering the courts to refer thomas to the a. g. to merrick garland for investigation. merrick garland has a lot on his plate. what can be done to fix this?

>> i've called on garland to appoint a special counsel. >> much like richard nixon did for abe fortas. >> there you go. i think that's a few things. one, there needs to be a stark response no. the reason i say that is thompson not be on the supreme court for a long time. his accolades will be on the supreme court well into the -- >> why don't you think he'll be on the court for a long time? >> just because of his age. >> you don't think he won't resign? >> of course. not i think the cause of him to resign and in peach our it was the time, sorry. i think we need to send a strong message, whether that be investigated by special counsel, investigation by the judiciary committee, but that she in the house, investigation by the judicial conference,, fighting thomas under the law for every mission under the statute of limitations, he could be fined $50,000. with a go about four years, see how many of those in the last four years, we should find him.

we should pass new laws that have a code of conduct that is enforceable and stronger gift travel, personal spotty rules like the house and senate do. i am worried about this next generation of judges and justices because so many attempts look up to thomas. i don't want them to be looking up to thomas ethically. it doesn't of them are already in seats in lower court judges. you know the second that there is precedent haley or desantis or hutchinson, thomas won't resign. one of this former course will replace him. i don't want them to be harlan crow's next project. i think sending stronger messages right now will have a good effect for generations. >> -- ill-defined but do you think we are getting there? >> i think we're getting close. i think there are -- there was the first ever bipartisan supreme court ethics bill in the senate. the first supreme court ethics bill was introduced to the house about ten days ago, and it's very basic. it says code of conduct for the justices, enforceable with an ethics officer and, by the way, if there is another major league, don't do a stupid internal investigation that does not find anything.

the dead part of the bill is higher the fbi or nsa to help you out. >> there are people that know how to do these things. gabe roth, you've been on this longer than anyone else. thank you for your time. emma brown, thank you for that reporting. we appreciate time tonight. coming up, donald trump has a very important decision to make this weekend before his civil rape trial resumes in eight new york city courtroom on monday. we'll tell you what that is but first, what the revelation of an insider witness someone who worked at mar-a-lago, with that could mean for special counsel jack smith's investigation into trump's alleged mishandling of classified documents. that is next, stay with us. paradontax blood when you brush could lead to worse over time. help stop the clock on gum disease now. parodontax toothpaste... ...is 3x more effective at removing plaque bacteria, one of the main causes of bleeding gums. parodontax. the gum experts. do you struggle with occasional nerve aches one of the main causes of bleeding gums. in your hands or feet? try nervive nerve relief from the world's number one nerve care company. nervive contains ala to relieve nerve aches,

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voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ we've gotten some bombshell new reporting from the new york times that and tense-ifying efforts in special counsel jack smith's probe into donald trump's potential mishandling of classified documents at mar-a-lago. the times reports on the existence of an insider witness, someone who has worked for donald trump at mar-a-lago and is said to have provided investigators with a picture of the storage room where the material had been held. the reporting goes on to say that prosecutors appear to be trying to fill in some gaps in their knowledge about the movement of the boxes, created in part by their handling of another -- mr. trump's ballot, will not oh. prosecutors believe mr. not a has failed to provide them with a full and accurate account of his role and any movement of boxes containing in the classified documents. meanwhile, the identity of that

cooperating witness has not yet been disclosed, the former president is already sounding off and post into a social media site today that the special prosecutor is harassing and threatening his people over the document hoax. additionally, two people briefed on the matter have told the times that nearly anyone who works at mar-a-lago has been subpoenaed, and that some who serve in fairly obscure jobs have been

asked back by investigators. joining us now to help us better understand what all this means is one of the reporters bylined on the story, michael schmidt, washington correspondent for the new york times. michael, thank you so much for joining me tonight. there is a very strong focus here from your reporting on the movements of these boxes. can you more fully explained why prosecutors might be focused specifically on where and when the boxes were? >> what's going on here is that the special counsel's office is trying to recreate and understand what happens inside of mar-a-lago in the weeks leading up to the disclosure from trump side to the governments that they've done a diligent search, and that they have returned all the materials. what happens in the weeks after that. because the whole question here, on this part of the investigation, is not necessarily just whether trump mishandled classified documents. the question is, did he obstruct the investigation? and did they provides the governments with an accurate answers when they said they had done a diligent search and indeed looked to see if there are classified documents, and you sort of summit up, trump's people had said that they

handed everything back and when they in when -- they found many more documents. so they are trying to understand what trump's role was in having boxes moved around, and whether the movement of those boxes can show that trump actually knew that there were classified documents that were still there at the same time that his lawyers were telling the government that there were. >> yes. so there is a lot of interest in the witnesses who can provide that account, and also the security cameras that would've potentially captured the movements of everybody, including the movements of the boxes in the hands of certain people. you're reporting that the trump organization had of security and his son, matthew calamari sr., and matthew cullen murray junior, they are talking to investigators. what is that tell you about the -- trump organization's involvement here, and how does that duck tail with their interest in the security camera footage? >> what appears to be going on is that this special counsel's

office does not have the cooperation of -- this is his basically personal assistant to trump at mar-a-lago, who had been told or did move these boxes around. and has some insight into whether trump knew whether there was classified documents in the boxes or not. and, what is happening is that because of a decision made by prosecutors along before the special counsel was appointed, mold nada has fully cooperated with the government's investigation. the government -- that they may charge him with a crime for not providing a full and accurate account when he had met with investigators, and that led his

lawyers to say, we are going to stop cooperating with the government. now, the government never went forward and searched him, nor has the government given his full cooperation. so they are going to extraordinary lengths, and they might have done this anyway if they had his cooperation, but they are now doing without it, to try to understand what surveillance footage may show of this storage facility, what if -- who knew about the storage facility, and what was in its, the reference you made earlier in our story about how nearly anyone at mar-a-lago has been subpoenaed at this point. why wasn't the camera fully fixed on the door of the storage facility? where is all the footage from these cameras that may have been looking at the storage facility? it's really getting into the anatomy and functioning of mar-a-lago, to understand, okay, what was really going on inside at a time when trump and his lawyers were repeatedly telling the governments and the national archives that they had given everything back. >> you mention gaps in the security footage. can you expand on that a little bit? >> so, they're trying to understand why they don't have full versions of the security footage, and why there may be gaps in that. are these natural gaps that occur when you have

security footage? are you retaining security footage for weeks and weeks with -- and they didn't? so they're trying to see, what was going on inside of mar-a-lago, and basically the running's of mar-a-lago, and why was it that they don't have a full digital camera accounting of the things that they need --? >> a full digital camera accounting, something that everyone likes to have. thank you for reporting, i appreciate time tonight. >> we have one more story for you tonight, the clock is ticking for donald trump who has a big decision to make and not a lot of time to make it. that's ahead. we leave you with hydrates better than the expensive stuff

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very important decision that donald trump is facing this weekend. whether or not to testify in his civil rape trial brought by former magazine called missed eeg carroll -- but yesterday, testimony was completed, and both e. jean carroll and trump have testing quite wet -- meaning this trial

is set to officially begin wrapping up on monday. but the presiding judge has given trump a deadline to decide if you wants to testify in his own defense, and that deadline, sunday 5 pm eastern, is fast approaching. trump hasn't taken the stand thus far, but the reason we are led to believe he wants to say something is because of what he said on an irish golf course yesterday. >> i'll be going back early, because a woman made a claim that's so false it was fake. she's a fake. it's all a big scam. it's all a big political scam. so because of that, i have to leave ireland, and i philippe scotland, where i have great properties. i have to leave early. i don't have to, but i choose to. >> will you attend the trial mister president? >> i'll probably attend. i'm going to go back and i'm going to -- this woman is a disgrace and it shouldn't be allowed to happen in our country. >> aside from that takedown on an irish golf course, he has vowed to confront e. jean

carroll, trump's own lawyer does not believe his claim that you will be taking the stand. during a sidebar conference, which was within earshot of a courtroom stenographer, nice one, mr. tacopina was heard telling judge kaplan quote, i know you understand what i'm dealing with. i know you understand what i'm dealing with. just a total attorney-client mind meld there. anyway, either way, trump has until sunday at 5 pm to officially make up his mind. however that process happens. that is our show for tonight, and now it is time for a special two hour edition of the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle, who interviewed president biden today. the 11th hour, that interview starts right now. good evening once again, i'm stephanie ruhle. president biden is now asking voters for another four years