good morning, it's may 7th. i'm michael steele filling in for my friend ali velshi. eight people were killed in seven others were injured by gunmen who opened fire into a crowd and people at a dallas shopping outward afternoon. three of the seven who were injured made a critical condition this morning. the shooting took place and alan premium outlets. a shopping center that has more than 120 stores located about 30 miles north of dallas. sale -- sent hundreds of people running for cover and witnesses -- describe the panic that ensued throughout the area. >> it was kind of scary hearing a lot of victims were found outside of h&m. we could hear a bunch of sirens

and rumors like how many shooters there are. other police outside a riot. it was really scary. there is a woman who had to stay behind a little bit for evacuation. she was changing her diaper for her child. it was terrifying, actually. >> the gunman was killed at the scene by a police officer who happened to be at the outlived responding to a different matter. but neither his avidity nor those of the victims had been released as of yet. according to a database maintained by the associated press in usa today, this is the 27th mass killing the sierra. and the second deadliest after the monterey park massacre were 11 people were killed during lunar new year celebrations in january. joining me now, live from allen texas is nbc news correspondent morgan chesky also with us is jim kavanaugh, retired atf special agent in charge who was previously facing dallas for a period of time. msnbc terrorism analyst. morgan, one of the league is my

friend that your hearing on the ground about this shooting at the victims from yesterday's tragedy. what's been the reaction there so far? >> michael, a very somber reaction here in the community as the -- tragedies things in here. at the perimeter of this massive mall complex remains on lockdown as investigators continue to gather evidence. they've established a command post nearby. we have police working with atf fbi texas rangers. everyone coordinating to try to figure out more about this horrific shooting that leaves eight people dead, seven wounded. the age ranges of the victims here, michael, five years old. five-year-old to 61 years old. several of the hundreds of people here who witnessed this gunshots rang out on a busy saturday at the mall. we did get an update from authorities very late last night. we do anticipate another one at

some point today. among the biggest questions you mentioned. the identity of the gunman, what firearm he used, how he bobtail at. right now, all we have to go off of our witness accounts of which there are several. one mother telling me that she walked outside escorted by police. who was guarding her daughter size. but did see a man she believed to be the suitor interesting all black, wearing body armor. appearing to be a really similar to that of a police officer. that it itself created a lot of doubt and concern on behalf of some of the people that were hiding inside, waiting the sowed. police actually made their way through here, to let everyone know it was okay and they could come out safely. in the meantime, we don't have a potential motive. we are hoping to ask questions to investigators later today from this shooting that is absolutely rocked this community here about 25 miles north of dallas.

michael. >> and jim, -- we haven't gotten a lot of information about the kind of gun that was. used for even about the shooter himself. police said they officers were able to neutralize this individual but it seems like there is a lot more that we don't know. a lot more that they still have to do. what do you make of the delay right now and what does that say about where this investigation is? >> they can question him obviously. they have to clean information from his electronic devices, from his family, friends, coworkers. now they know who is, searches, houses, cartwright get the answers from all that background. we call a psychological autopsy. try to walk's life back six months and see what's going on. maybe we can get some kind of motivation. it's gonna ring hollow for us because there is no motivation anybody could believe his okay

to slaughter nine people, 30 more people or however many he did with a rifle. a bulletproof assessed and vandal ears of ammunition and magazines stuffed in his tactical vest, shooting five-year-old children. we're in a terrible state in america. just mass shootings in the last two weeks. if this was being done by ices or al-qaeda, we'd be bombing three countries right now. but we're not doing anything and that's really the tragedy we try to carve out things for special interest groups instead. trying to address the problem. take the fine laws that can help us reduce the number of these shootings across all areas -- not only guns, guns we have to address but -- mental health, special groups and counties that can identify and stop these people. there's many things that can be done. all have to be done. special interest groups try to carve out the thing for their

group and say you can't touch this, you can work on these other things. you can't do that. you gotta work on -- you in a war by fighting out of friends and the only way to do -- reduce thesis to fight on all friends. and listen, it's a see -- i'll close with this thought here. this really comes down to the ballot. people talk about we have march for our lives, of to speak up, we have to go -- none of that matters. it doesn't matter at all. you can march on every building and have a sit in and you can have rallies. the only thing matters is you vote for the person who will change the law to make you safer. that's the only thing. if you do that, if you vote for your kids instead of four people who have a gun fetish, then you'll get reasonable -- not draconian laws, take away certain things like, that some reasonable laws that help them reduce these. i can tell you, there's been a

36 years in law enforcement. commander in atf, all of the united states and dallas, i was assistant special agent who just a few miles from -- gun laws save lives every single day. every single day we took guns from very bad people, mentally disturbed people, people who were bent on a vicious crimes, colts, clansmen, not, see-through balls. we took guns from -- gun laws do reduce violence and death and were not -- reliving in america now that was created by the gun lobby going back at least 25 years. maybe when al gore lost that election. when he lost his home state of tennessee over the gun issue. i live in nashville. the gun lobby had control of american politics for at least 25 years. this is the gun lobby's america right here. that's what we're living in. everybody has a gun, everybody safer. if that was true, texas would

be the safest place on the planet. of course, it's not. it's not true. we gave them 25 years michael. 25 years of their experiment. and their view of how that would all make us -- how is that working. it doesn't, work of course. they have a lot of -- armed society, polite society. things like this. they don't understand the condition and they're always gonna be bad people, criminals, dangerous people and use them for mass murder. >> morgan, i want to finish up with you here. there is a vigil planned for tonight. what can you tell us about that? >> michael, hundreds of people are expected at a nearby church tonight to pay their respects today. lives lost to the seven wounded three of whom are still in critical condition. this is a place where are unfortunately, people are all

too familiar, not necessarily here in per se but in the state of texas with the aftermath of tragedy such as this one. we do anticipate there to be a significant turnout tonight. we plan to be there. and hear more from this community now grappling with is something that unfortunately too many communities are having to grapple with nationwide. michael, i should add that i live in dallas and i flew home yesterday from having covering the hospital shooting in atlanta. where a gunman walked inside to a clinic, opened fire, killing one woman. wounding for others. the story i covered prior to that was going to texas cheerleaders were shot. one of them mistakenly got inside of the wrong car in a parking lot. to now be standing here today. in allen texas. in front of a mall where eight people were killed.

it's a little different. >> it's a little different. nbc's morgan chesky, jim kavanaugh, thank you very much. meanwhile, these latest mass shooting has once again drawn attention to the powerful gun lobby in the national rifle association. widely seen as the most significant barrier to the passage of gun restrictions. even those with broad public support like background checks. just hours after yesterday's mass shooting, the nra tweeted quote no organization in the world does more to promote safe and responsible use of firearms than the nra. joining me now is ryan bussey, former insider who left the gun industry after growing disillusioned with the nra's failure to consider and he kind control after mass shootings. he's also author of the book gunfight. my battle against the industry that radicalized america. ryan it's good to see you again and to speak with you. you were deep in this gun industry before quitting it

altogether after serious a mass shootings. share with us a little bit about that part of your story and what ultimately caused you to rethink and reimagine this gun narrative in the country. >> thanks for having me, michael. i wish i was the one she today but here we are again. this terror that we're living in our country is really a byproduct of as jim, our atf ran just mentioned, it's a byproduct of an all-re-up thing nra governance that has been adopted by the gop. in fact, mortgage reporting. he's -- this issue does not discriminate between democrats and republicans. morgan was just reporting on a shooting in a state with a republican governor. he's now in a another state with a republican governor reporting on a second mass shooting there that he's covering. these things do not discriminate. but the problem is, the nra

used this issue, created as a totemic all or nothing issue. handed it off to the gop. in states across our country. and republicans are now using this in -- as a way to institute their own the libs kind of governance. good governance happens when we beat out hard solutions that make things marginally better in the gray spaces of our lives. they aren't this all or nothing. greg abbott in texas is moving towards the nothing. purmela's carry, he's commuting the sentences of people who murder people. at protests. everything that is being done in texas by the republican party and in other states across the country is now all about owning the libs. this is the byproduct of that kind of insanity. >> it's an interesting and important point because i think what people fail to understand is individuals like yourself

and even my friend joe walsh with us in the last section who's very strong advocate of the second amendment and supports responsible gun laws. they're not -- they're not against owning firearms. you just want to comment since control. regulations put in place. why is the industry so much against that kind of effort. we saw what happened in 2006 with the bush effort to bring some sanity to our gun laws. they were able -- they were torn up. >> let me be very clear. i still own lots of guns. i want to hunt and shoot. my boy shoot in competitions. i'm a very proud gun owner. responsible gun owners understand that that kind of a men's powerful freedom must come with an immense and powerful responsibility. ? and we must balance the scales.

in the country right now, our scales are way out of whack. again, the governing style of the gop is to dispense the sort of responsibility that is often codified in laws that are beat out in the hard work of governance. it's much easier to govern easing the culture war and to pat laws or to dispense with laws so you can own your enemy. that's not how a functioning democracy is going to exist. people like me, millions of people and i live in montana. millions of gun owners in texas are guessing. they are in favor of responsibility so that they can protect their rights and protect the rights of all citizens. we're in this to function as a country. to protect our life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. those people are now in texas right now. there is life has gone. liberty is gone and the pursuit of happiness is gone there today. how is that responsible? >> ryan, before we let you go,

the one thing i really -- if you can help us wrap your head around this. over the, years you've noted the gun industry has embraced this military style weapon. selling into the public. how did that happen. how did we get on this track where an ar-15 now people wearing lapel pins of the gun on their clothing in congress. >> remember, this is the totemic issue for many in the republican party. because nothing conveys power and authoritarian-ism like a loaded gun. nothing. that's where people -- that's why armed men marched to the mission capital caring ar-15s. they don't have ice cream sunday, they have ar-15s. because that's what conveys the authoritarian power. responsible gun owners are not for that. what happened was 15 1820 years ago, the nra figured out that the singular symbol that thing that lapel pin. that would be the totemic thing for them to own the libs with. here we are.

these are the sorts of policies and tragedies that we live with because -- >> ryan bucy, thank you for being here. still ahead, donald trump still has time to change his mind and take the stand in his own defense in the battery and defamation trial followed by -- eugene carroll. the former president has until 5:00 tonight to decide and if not, closing arguments will begin tomorrow. plus, we will head to the southern border to take a look at what immigration will look like under new biden era policies. this is velshi. policies this is velshi this is velshi want a worry-free way to kill bugs?

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immigration policy known as title 42 is set to expire on thursday, border communities are seeing in a major increase of people gathering near crossing points, hoping to enter the u.s..

some immigration experts say they expect to see the number of attempted border crossings nearly double to more than 10,000 per day. in preparation for the increase, the biden ministration is now sending some 1500 active duty troops to the border who are set to arrive there on wednesday. and one of the cities that we'll see troops -- which is right across the border from tijuana mexico. hundreds of migrants have already started gathering their hopes of eventually making it to the u.s. to find work -- nbc news correspondent is in -- where it's just this morning, a large group of people many of the families with young kids arrived at the border. can you tell us about what you are seeing there and what's happening and what's your mood like, actually? >> michael, what we have a surge of all of these border cities from to want to hear in the western coast.

as far as texas and brownsville where they've also seen a large surge. hundreds of migrants arriving daily with the end of title 42. coming in just a few days. here between-to-one and the san diego area, we have this area between -- this is a particular part of the border. we have two barriers. we have the first barrier on top of the mountain back there. the second barrier. for the first time, we've seen migrants who are getting over the first barrier and camping and between that and the second barrier. this morning, we found 300. that's what we counted. every day, migrants arriving. it's very particular right now about the san diego sector. you have migrants from vietnam, you have migrants from south america, migrants from morocco. there is a group of seven individuals here. they're from vietnam. seven of you guys from vietnam. they traveled for four months. we were able to speak using google transit with our phones they told me that they got here because they've been following other migrants from south america.

they said they made their way to chile, from chile even traveling by bus just one of the examples of what we've seen here. women which filled run over in the other side. what happens is they're camping out waiting for a border patrol to come through the fence. there's a wide open defense. take them in for processing. these are migrants that are attempting to ask for asylum. a lot of the migrants arrived in u.s. mexico border want to request asylum. there is a process in place where migrants can use an app and apply for the asylum process. others choose to enter the country illegally and then await at the border until they are apprehended. we've also seen groups of migrants and other parts like an oh passed so. -- they are not intending to be apprehended by border patrol. there's a lot of different things happening at the border, at the moment as we see the surge. here in the san diego sector, the border patrol chief said that as of april 1st, between october and april 1st, they had

already seen 100,000 encounters at this sector. that's of the fiscal year. that's a very large number. that's just for here in san diego. meanwhile, in places like brownsville, the secretary said they were averaging about 2000 migrants suggesting that entire region. that's examples of the surge that we are seeing here at the u.s. mexico border, michael. >> abc's squad venegas thank you so much. appreciate it. do during the mass shooting at an outlet mall -- one mother's instincts kicked in. she heard the gunshots, she had her daughter in a bathroom. risking her own life she told nbc's morgan chesky that she tried to shield her daughters from the scene the carnage but there was only so much she could do. >> something you don't want any child to see. >> i saw. now ports can know where every piece of cargo is. and where it's going.

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still has an opportunity to testify in the battery defamation trial via -- writer e. jean carroll. the judge has given trump and his team until 5:00 tonight to partition the court to allow to testify. the judge says he made this decision because trump who has now appeared in the courtroom at any point during the trial sedentary say that he will quote probably attend. videoed from state disposition was released to the public on friday. it went exactly as you'd expected to go. >> when you said in that video that may sly would not be your first choice, you were referring to her physical looks, correct? >> just overall. i looked at, or i see her. i hear what she says. whatever. you wouldn't be a choice of my neater to be honest with you. i hope you're not insulted. i would not under any circumstances have any interest in you. i am honest when i say.

she, i would not have any interest in. >> i hope you're not insulted as i insult you. e. jean carroll alleges trump raped her in a department store in the mid 1990s and then defamed her by denying her claims published in 2019 books she rode. trump denies the allegations. if trump decides not to testify, the closing arguments will begin tomorrow. i'm joined now by choice fans, former u.s. attorney in alabama and an msnbc contributor and a good friend of e. jean carroll. troy's welcome's always good to see you because i get to tap into that wonderful brain of yours about these things. why has the charge given trump window to testify after both sides -- going off of he said he may show up. trying to call trump's bluff here? what should we make of it? >> that's exactly what it is. the judge has called trump's bluff because trump makes this overblown statement on a golf

course in ireland. telling people i have to cut my trip short early and go back home to defend myself against these terrible allegations. literally within hours of him doing that, his lawyer is in court, telling the judge that he is down presenting his evidence. that's a lock in a trial. once you close everything so far, no more evidence comes in. judge caplan did the smart thing here. he calls trump's bluff. he says okay, your client says he's going to testify. he says he has to leave europe early and fly home. i'm gonna bend over backwards and give him every opportunity. ultimately, what the judge does by doing this and i suspect trump will not testify if he does. that would be an entirely different situation for his lawyers to try to deal with. what the judge does here is he for closes trump's opportunity to tell everybody what a terrible biased judge he had and how they prejudiced him and

didn't let him testify. he has had every opportunity here. >> it was interesting for me watching this deposition. the takes that we saw. during which trump made those disparaging remarks about e. jean carroll. even the attorney who was -- the deposition. which of those responses struck you the most and what kind of impact do you think that will have on the jury. >> it's tough to pick a favorite michael. all of them are striking. i have defamed your client. now let me talk ugly about you. i seriously doubt that e. jean carroll's lawyer was disturbed by that. but it's an important moment for the jury to get to see. what they're being asked to do is to make credibility -- when they deliberate. who do you believe? e. jean carroll who testified, who was here in the courtroom every day. or donald trump who never

showed up in court but who you can see on videotape speaking while he was at least for a little while under oath a sort of a unique situation for him. all of these moments on the videotape are very powerful because they in essence form trump's testimony. he doesn't do a very good job of defending himself when he says things like this. >> what should we expect to come monday. if trump doesn't respond by 5 pm today? >> right, so monday the judge will hold what's called a charging conference. that's the point where he sits down with the lawyers and hammers out of the instructions so give the jury. jury's are the judge of the facts. they decide what testimony they believe, what they think happened. it's up to the judge to tell them what law they should apply. once they determine those facts. that can take a little while. there will be closing arguments both of the parties have suggested that they would like about two hours for each side in order to close. what's likely is that if trump

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said to oppose raising the debt ceiling. this of the nation's just weeks away from defaulting on 31.4 trillion dollars worth of debt for the first time in history. and the consequences could be potentially catastrophic for millions of americans. and we seized -- has all of the details. >> this week, treasury secretary janet yellen warned in a letter that the debt ceiling isn't race soon, the u.s. might not be able to pay its bill as early as june 1st. soon after the release of that letter, news broke that president biden had invited to the white house the top two republicans in congress for a face to face meeting. house speaker kevin mccarthy and senate minority leader mitch mcconnell. along with the top two democrats, senate majority leader chuck schumer and house minority leader hakeem jeffries. president biden and congressional democrats want to raise the debt limit with the no strings attached. the republicans say they want spending cuts attached. exclusive interview on msnbc,

stephanie -- question the president on whether he thing speaker mccarthy is an honest broker. >> when you say this is not your father's republican party, is kevin mccarthy an honest broker for you to negotiate with? >> i think he's an honest man. i think it's a position where he had to make, video that it was pretty 15 votes. 15 votes that were the sold away everything that the far right. there is a republican party and there's a maga republicans. the maga republicans really have put him in a position where or in order to stay speaker he has to agree to things that maybe he believes but are just extreme. >> meanwhile, a default could lead to a global crisis and trigger a great recession types in area. the white house says even a brief default could result in 500,000 job lawsuits. or protracted a fault lasting longer than three months could

cause more than 8.3 million people to lose their jobs. >> nbc's -- thank you very much. another gut wrenching mass shooting in texas. how is anyone supposed to feel safe when this keeps happening over and over and over again? this couple that witness that the attack said they certainly don't. >> it was really terrifying. really terrifying. >> what's going through your minds? >> honestly? move out. honestly. >> it's not safe anymore. i don't feel safe.

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gunned down innocent people in a shopping mall, and not for the first time. such an attack is too shocking to be so familiar. and yet, american communities have suffered roughly 200 mesh shootings already this year according to leading counts. more than 14,000 of our fellow citizens have lost their lives, credible estimates show. the leading cause of death for american kids's gun violence. those details about the air 15 rifle and tactical gear are new people of information we did not know prior to this statement. joining me now are to native texans, liana castro, former secretary of housing and urban development under president obama. he's also the former mayor of san antonio and an msnbc political analyst. and roland martin, host and managing editor of the roland martin unfiltered digital show. and the ceo of new vision media. secretary, i want to start with you. get your reaction to learning this new information, just now

from the president of the united states. first of, we haven't had that reported. the president just did. what are we to make from this information and the level of detail that we have so far. >> it's not surprising that this was an ar-15 style weapon that was seized. we've seen this over and over and over again. so many of these mass shootings. it's almost second nature. people assume it. we have it confirmed now. it's not surprising that this is the type of weapon that was used to gun down so many people so quickly. it's notable here that you fortunately had a police officer that was on site for another call that was able to take out the shooter pretty quickly, it seems like. although we haven't gotten all the details. even in that scenario, because of the way these weapons are able to fire so quickly, we still have as many casualties and people wounded as we do. the other thing is president

biden notes. we see this again, this happens everywhere in our country all the time. especially in states like my home state and rowan's home state. texas where are republicans have created a climate of problem solving by bullet and the availability of guns to anyone anywhere anytime. they've made it easier and easier and easier and they refused to do anything about actually solving the problem. they said they were gonna do something about four years ago after the massacre in el paso at that walmart. they put together a show commission that didn't recommend anything significant and then the legislature didn't do anything about it. same thing this legislative session. there is legislation on the table to require that somebody be at least 21 years old to purchase one of these assault-style weapons.

it is languishing right now in committee. republicans won't do anything about it. >> roland, you would think after a mass shooting like this, lawmakers in the state where it happened would take stock or work on policy changes to the secretary's point. to prevent it from happening again. but that's not what's happens in texas. what do we do here? how do we break this cycle? it's not like every two weeks, my friend. it's like every other day we're having these stories now about mass shootings. >> the only way to change any of this is to completely wipe out the republican party. somebody has to say greg abbott the governor is sick and demented. he has done nothing. lieutenant governor dave patrick, leadership republican leadership in the state, they literally have done nothing. they have no -- i was there the texas capital a few months ago. they are not going to do

anything. here is also what has to happen. people of conscious are going to have to stop sitting at home and saying we want something done in the last election, 75% of all texans under the age of 30 did not vote. the only way to change this is to move these people out of office. there is no other way. yes, we've seen what they've done when it comes to voter suppression. they want to remove voting locations from college campuses. the way to counter this, you have to take these people out of office and put in people who are going to pass the laws. that is the only way because it is clear, they are not going to change the laws because they are so in love with guns and so in love with the second amendment crowd. they do not care to seep audience piled up -- >> change comes when you change

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and get the best price for 2 lines of unlimted. >> back with marie is former visit xfinitymobile.com today. secretary of housing and urban development, under president obama. and roland martin, host and managing editor of the roland martin unfiltered digital show. you have to check it out, it is some good stuff, folks.

roland, let's get to you, my friend, on this one. talk to me about democrats because republican-led state legislatures like texas, they're just chewing it up and spreading it out, all right? they're passing up popular stuff, anti-democratic bills, and where is the fight? there is no fight. it's not just the gun issues, transgender issues, it's books that we read. where is the fight from the democrats that say, you know, what time out, we're not doing this? >> well, there is a fight, but you can't fight when they have a supermajority. so, what democrats have done for the last, oh, 20 or so years, they focus on winning national elections, not understanding that you can ignore the states. so, right now, republicans have a six to -- 5 to 10 majority on the supreme court, 2018, beasley lost by 400 votes, democrats could've had a 6 to 1 majority had she

won. now, that cortez flipped. you look at florida, you look at mississippi, look at texas, all these places, they have super majorities. so, democrats, all these democratic funders out here are gonna have to put their money on the ground to be able to change. i just mentioned, 75% of young voters in texas did not vote in the 2022 midterms -- so, you see what they're doing. and what they're doing is attacking folks who've already won. in texas, they're attacking harris county, by specifically saying, oh, we can overturn the election, call for a new one, if certain things happen. they're throwing a prosecutors in florida, andrew warren, the senator -- brad kemp just signed a new law in georgia to replace prosecutors. so, democrats have got to wake up and realize republicans are exercising power. this is about power. democrats are playing nice. you have got to remove the

super majorities to give yourself a fighting chance. >> yeah, i couldn't agree with that more, it is about power, and it's something that we know how to exercise and use extremely well on the republican side. secretary castro, you've seen firsthand a lot of what roland is talking about. used to be the mayor of san antonio, you know the inner workings of local government in a very red state. better than most. so, where is that opportunity to do like roland said, to sort of begin to create and generate the level of interest at the ground level that changes everything that flows up. >> well, you know, a lot of it is at the local level. what you have and many of these states, whether you take a state like texas or states that are, you know, better positioned, like georgia. you have blue cities, big blue cities in the middle of this huge red state, san antonio, dallas, houston, austin, el paso.

and the organizing that goes on in these local communities is important. what goes on the ballot in these local communities set the trend, the representatives that serve these urban and suburban areas around these cities, that's important. i think that it's gonna take a grassroots effort from the ground up. on the other side of, it as roland noted, these guys are being very systematic about trying to limit that power, trying to take voting away from college campuses, all other voter suppression legislation that will basically chill the ability, dampen the ability or the willingness of people to get out there and register people to vote, and to actually get registered themselves. they know what they're doing. democrats have to be as intentional about expanding the franchise, getting people to pull, is getting their themselves, as republicans have bed about taking that away. >> roland -- >> you have to run people, you have to run people, 75% --

75% of the republicans who won in tennessee, they ran unopposed, they ran unopposed. so, no wonder the supermajority. so, what representative pierson and johnson and jones are doing, they have created this -- now, how do you come and under that with financial support, and then begin to say, we have to run people. they're destroying nashville, they took away their congressional district and split into three, okay? in mississippi, they're creating an expanded complex of state police and in the courts of jackson mississippi. again, executing power. for all of these democratic donors out there, get off your butt, stop putting money in entertainment, and understand that if you are not putting resources on the ground in states, in states, okay? you are going to keep losing. abortion rights, states, voting rights, states, gun issues, states.

everything does not happen in washington, daisy. you cannot ignore the states. and for black people, a significant percentage of us living in the south, we're also being impacted by this. so, folks had better wake up and understand that 2024 is not just about trump and biden, it is literally about the future of america in our states. >> secretary castro, i want to pick up on that point by roland, as you take a side of this conversation. how does that all begin to come together for democrats right now when you're looking at the leadership, you are looking at the kinds of candidates that are gonna be out there running. you've got, why, 51% of democrats that don't want joe biden to run in 24? who are you gonna run if you don't run joe biden? so, if democrats are already fractured around the presidential nominee, to roland 's point, how are you doing anything on the ground in the face of the assault that's happening by republicans on democratic rights?

>> yeah, i mean, this is one area where the little optimistic, more optimistic, michael, that's because during the trump era, you had these grassroots movements and organizations that came out of them. in so many committees out there, whether it's run for something or indivisible or groups like that that have produced a ton of energy around creating new candidates, getting people to the polls. especially on the issues of reproductive rights and common sense gun safety reform, i feel like there's a lot of energy, especially among young people. so, i think that 2024 can be a strong here for democrats. >> all right, we'll see. castro and roland martin, thank you very much. that does it for me, thanks for watching. l.a. will be back next week. stay right where you are, inside with jim psaki begins right now. >> another mass shooting in america, this time in the dallas suburb of allen, texas. another round