primary and this upcoming presidential election. he has been working on his own potential media empire to launch well before we get to november 2024. >> there's also been some leaks of footage, behind the scenes footage in recent days. the carlson camp is blaming fox for that. this is detail from the "axios" report, tucker carlson met with elon musk about potentially working together. elon musk, who wanted to be a political independent and centrist to twitter, wants to meet with tucker carlson. alex thompson, thank you so much for joining us this morning. it'll be a very busy week in washington. title 42, the pandemic-era immigration restriction ends. the debt ceiling deadline approaches. president meets with leaders of congress tomorrow at the white house. and, of course, reaction to the latest poll. it's a busy, busy week. thanks for starting with us this morning on "way too early" on a monday. "morning joe" starts right now. i work around people who have mental health issues.

this, i don't know what the gunman's problem was, his motive, but it country mental health that killed these people. it was an automatic rifle with bullets. i'm a gun owner, i have guns. former police officer, army officer, but these ar-15s, they have to get off the streets or this is going to keep happening. condolences and prayers won't bring these people back. we need action at the federal and state level for better gun control. i'm saying that as somebody who loves guns. >> what texas is doing in a big-time way, we are working to address that anger and violence by going to its root cause, which is addressing the mental health problems behind it. we know that texas had been lagging in addressing mental health for years, and that's why, over the past three sessions, we've added almost $25 billion to address mental health. we're in the waning days of a session right now where we will be adding even more funding. >> yeah. >> it's just -- really, right

now, there are law enforcement officers who believe that white supremacy is looking at some of shooter's computers. this is what they're saying. and he goes on and talks about -- again -- >> he was asked about gun reform. >> he's always off. he's always wrong. he's always off about guns. he will do anything. he'll do a bait and switch. compare texas' mental health treatment to anybody else's in the world. by the way, there are mental health problems in belgium. there are mental health problems in bribritain. you don't think there's mental health problems in london? there aren't shootings in london like there are in texas, it seems every day, every other day. this guy talks about illegal immigrants getting shot, first of all, heinous, and you talk to

people who want this slaughter to continue, who want ar-15s on the street for everybody. they want it shall they'll g, "oh, well, you never talk about how the shooter was an illegal immigrant." well, yeah, let's talk about that. how did the guy who was deported four times, four times, how did he get an ar-15? how did he get all the other weapons? how are all these people getting weapons? you know, the thing is, abbott will do anything but talk about the issue -- >> yup. >> -- that is in front of him, the murders in texas since 2014 by guns have skyrocketed. all this guy does is say he wants more guns in the state of texas. it's sick. >> what you -- >> this is a sickness. >> what you first heard was a former police officer who responded to the deadly mass shooting at an outlet mall in texas. then that response from texas

governor greg abbott when he was asked about overwhelmingly popular gun safety measures, and whether the state legislature would consider them. he chose only to focus on mental health. we'll have a live report from allen, texas, in just a moment. >> it's really sick. >> yeah. well, gun culture -- >> it is sick. >> -- coming to a home or public place near you. >> this isn't even gun culture. this is the most extreme, radicalized version. i grew up in a gun culture where people would go hunting in the fall. this was normal. >> right. >> there's nothing normal about these ar-15s being so easy to get ahold of, that even an illegal immigrant who is deported four times feels free to shoot it in his front yard before slaughtering his neighbors. also ahead on "morning joe," president joe biden defends his decision to send troops to the

southern border as a covid-related immigration restriction is set to expire this week. it comes as there is new polling this morning that shows the president's approval rating sinking. and on the wrong side of a potential rematch with donald trump in 2024. but there's one key number for trump in that poll that should have republicans quite concerned, as well. with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. the post of "politics nation," president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. former aide to the george w. bush white house and state departments, elise jordan is with us. and founder of the conservative website "the bulwark," charlie sykes joins us this morning. >> charlie, i just, i want to get your response to greg abbott. you know, he was once -- i was once in his party. here you have an -- you have a

state, i mean, that is just going up in flames. a state where migrants are run over on sunday mornings. a state where people are gunned down while they go to shopping malls. a state where nobody is safe, even inside their own churches. they get gunned down inside their churches. a state where, my god, people aren't even safe inside their own home. if we want to use greg abbott's twisted logic, inside their own home because an illegal immigrant who has been deported repeated times still can get his hands on an ar-15 and shoot it out in the yard before going in and slaughtering a 9-year-old child. >> i am so sick of talking about these mass shootings because we go into this doom loop of arguments over and over and over again. we're seeing this again. this toxic stew of insanity,

ignorance, hypocrisy, political cowardice. the kinds of things we're hearing from greg abbott, who tried to make this into, you know, a story about illegal immigrants opposed to the inhumanity of all of this. you know, i mean, honestly, and i've said this before, if what happened at sandy hook did not shake this nation into action, i don't know what would. we're seeing this play out on a regular basis, where we're seeing these mass shootings. texas clearly has a problem. it's a problem beyond simply mental health. it is a problem of these ar-15s and what they do to the human body. the question is, you know, how much carnage are we going to tolerate? the republican party has been dining out on the notion that it is the law and order party for a very, very long time, and with every week, it becomes more absurd. >> it really does. let's get right to the story in texas. eight people were killed, seven others injured on saturday, when a gunman opened fire at an

outlet mall in allen, texas. a suburb of dallas. we want to warn our viewers that some of the footage is disturbing. dash cam video, which police confirms is authentic, shows the moment the alleged gunman got out of his car and began firing. police have identified him as 33-year-old suspected neo nazi sympathizer, wearing a tactical vest armed with an assault weapon and a handgun. the suspect was killed by police. an officer happened to be in the area on an unrelated call. authorities have not released a motive, but investigators are examining hundreds of social media posts that include racially or ethnically motivated rhetoric, including material espouing white supremacy. joining us from allen, texas, senior national correspondent for nbc news, jay gray. jay, what more can you share

with us? >> reporter: well, mika, as far as the investigation goes, you're right, no motive. they are centered on those hundreds of posts from several different social media outlets that he had, several different things that he posted online and interacted with online. a lot of it neo nazi and white supremacist, as you talk about. they have searched his home. they will continue today to interview his family and friends. he lives in dallas and was said to be a loner, someone who didn't spend a lot of time in the neighborhood. he was wearing a tactical vest at the time of the attack and had more ammunition, more weapons inside the vehicle. let's get to the victims here. we still don't have any official information about these victims. we do know that at least three of those wounded in the attack are still in the hospital in critical condition this morning. witnesses here, survivors say

there was really no warning, that they just suddenly heard the crack of rapid gunfire followed by panic and fear. >> we start hearing, and no way, we thought it was roofing. he walks up, he's seeing the pillars in front of our store get hit by rounds. >> there were people on the floor. a lot of people were hiding. they told me to get away, to move out, and i kept telling them, i'm looking for my daughter. >> the first allen police officer pulled up, and i won't never forget the look on his face when he saw what he and i were looking at. i grabbed a 4-year-old that was under one of the victims, that was not breathing, and asked the kid, i said, "are you okay?" i assume he was a boy, but there was so much blood, i couldn't tell if it was a boy or a girl. >> reporter: yeah, look, the massacre here, the second deadliest in the u.s. this year. the second mass shooting in texas in just over a week. mika, i was just in london

covering the coronation. crowds of tens of thousands lining the street, never a hint of any concern about any type of gun violence. but here in texas, going shopping for the weekend became deadly. >> my god. nbc's jay gray, thank you very much. >> you know, that's quite an insight by jay, really quickly. >> throngs of people. >> i remember people commenting that when we were at the queen's funeral, people making the same comments. >> mm-hmm. >> how sad, that when you're in crowds in other countries, in london, when there were throngs there, you're not sitting there thinking about the possibility of a mass shooting. yet, in america, in our country, especially in the state of texas, everybody has to be on guard if they go into a grocery store, if they go into a church where there are mass shootings, if they go to a country music festival where there are mass shootings, if you go into a strip mall where there are shootings. even if you're a little kid

inside your own house, there are mass shootings. it's just, again, it's inexcusable, and it is a choice that texans are making. >> right. >> it is a choice that floridians are making. it is a choice that americans are making. every day, they don't force their state legislatures and their governors to protect their families, protect their loved ones. >> speaking of that, the editorial board of "the dallas morning news" has an editorial to the governor of texas. it reads, in part, governor abbott, you responded this was an unspeakable tragedy. we tell you that it was not unspeakable, and that the people of texas need you to speak to it and its cause. there is nothing conservative about refusing to acknowledge evidence or give voice to the true nature of a problem. you must speak to the terrible

imbalance that you and republican leaders have created between the individual liberty of nearly unrestricted ownership of the most powerful rifles and guns versus the increasing decline in society's ability to function without constant fear of violent death. this has to stop. you cannot say this is unspeakable tragedy and move on. a leader must have the courage to speak. you must look at this horror, at the devastation wrought on these people, and you must summon the will to act to change the laws that have put us in this terrible place. and you know what he and other republicans would say to that. you know what he would say. he would say, mental health, mental health, look over here. what is he doing for mental health, by the way? >> nobody believes it anymore. look at funding in texas for mental health. compare it to other states. i'm sure it's near the bottom or close to the bottom. i mean, there's always this talk

about mental health. >> just an excuse to not talk about guns. >> any time you corner somebody in a debate about weapons of war and how little children are being slaughtered, how people are being -- worshippers are being slaughtered in churches, in synagogues, at country music festivals, at shopping malls, and they have nowhere to go, they go, mental health, mental health, ignoring the fact that there are mental health problems in london. there are mental health problems in paris. there are mental health problems across europe. but the united states, far and beyond any other industrialized country, any other western country, the numbers are staggeringly high here compared to everywhere else, where they have as many mental problems as the united states does. elise jordan, you have a group of migrants being run down and killed. look at this, u.s. has, by far,

the highest child and teen firearm mortality rate among peer countries. our little children are being slaughtered. greg abbott has nothing to say about it. he just wants to change the subject. but after greg abbott cynically, cruelly looked at a rampage inside of a home, where children -- a child and his mother and family was slaughtered by an ar-15, and, yes, an illegal immigrant -- the question is, how did he get that ar-15 -- the governor cynically and cruelly focused on the immigration status of these poor people and that little boy that were slaughtered and called them illegal immigrants. right off the top. just inhumane. he wanted to focus on that, illegal immigrants. so is it any surprise that we

have migrants being run over, with this sort of lack of leadership, this sort of cynicism, the hatred in texas? is it any surprise that we have migrants on sunday mornings, some of them probably going to church, getting run over while they're waiting for a bus? who are that we have a neo-nazi sympathizer, possible white supremacists going to malls to gun down other people? i mean, this is -- there is a sickness in the state of texas, and that sickness starts at the very top with greg abbott, who refuses to protect little children in the state of texas, whether it's at school or whether it's at church or whether it's at shopping malls or even inside their own homes. >> joe, how is this anything but

homegrown extreextremism? how are we not responding to this in a way equal to after 9/11? i mean, took that terrorist threat pretty seriously. perhaps, you know, went a little overboard in some areas, but that's another here nor there. but we just sit around and do absolutely nothing while these high-capacity magazines are freely available for assault rifles. and assault weapons. i just -- you know, how does this 33-year-old have a tactical vest? how does he have this kind of gear? how is it so readily available that a normal citizen can outgun a cop? you know, you heard that bystander talking about what they saw and, you know, the child covered in so much blood, he couldn't tell if it was a boy or a girl, a 4-year-old. yet, we are doing absolutely nothing differently.

you can -- takes a while to get a driver's license, and you can fail that test, but, apparently, anyone can have a gun in this country. >> just like you have to wear a seat belt, but are people allowed to walk around with bombs, live grenades? if you look at the destruction that these ar-15 style weapons are causing on the human body, this makes no sense. >> it makes no sense. everybody should go back and should look -- >> no sense. >> -- at "the washington post" article that studies the difference between an ar-15 bullet when it enters the human body and other bullets. it so clearly was designed as a weapon of war, which it was, a weapon of war, and its only use is to kill multiple people. >> that is what is happening. >> as quickly as possible. that is its only use. we've said it time and time again, as somebody who owns guns, if you want to stop

somebody in your house, intruder in the house, take out the shotgun. hard to miss. does the job and does the job better than an ar-15 inside close quarters. anybody that knows anything about guns can tell you that. but anyway, rev, after 9/11, we did everything we could do. elise said some people suggested we did too much. dick cheney talked about the 1% solution. if there was a 1% chance something bad was going to happen, he was going to do everything to stop that 1%. here we are in 2023, and people are getting gunned down every day in states like texas. 90% of americans want universal background checks. 75% of americans want red flag laws. majority of americans want military style weapons like ar-15 weapons banned.

what do republicans say, other than the ten who voted for reform in the senate? what do republicans say? we can't do anything. we're helpless. i'm sorry, 80% want red flag laws. they say, we can't do anything. we're weak. we're inept. we're just pathetic, pathetic legislators that can't stop the killing of little children. there's nothing we can do. i mean, this is -- americans don't think this way, rev. americans have never thought this way, especially when their loved ones are being slaughtered. yet, that's what republicans want us to think because they care more about the gun lobby and gun manufacturers making money than they do protecting little children in malls, little children in churches, little children in synagogues, and little children even inside their own homes.

>> it is almost as if you would say, on one hand, you have a gun, another hand, your child, and you show more love to the gun than your child. i mean, it is really that serious. for governor abbott to try and duck the issue by saying we need to deal with the mental health issue, all of us want to deal with the mental health issue. you're hosting a special on that tonight, primetime, but that does not address what is available now. if you really believe there was a mental health issue, governor abbott, that's all the more reason you wouldn't have ar-15 and military weapons available to people until we deal with the mental health issue. it is absolutely insulting to our intelligence to leapfrog the immediate to deal with the justified long-term problem of mental health. and for these people to be sitting in a state that has seen

this consistently happen right in their state, at some point, they're going to have to rise up and put people in office that will deal with the issue and not try to kick the can down the road. >> in terms of protecting children, there is social media footage from this shooting. we, of course, will not show it here. it shows a little girl being blown apart by an ar-15. >> oh, god. >> it is too graphic to behold. the state of texas, this is just since 2017, mass shootings, those killed, 2017, plano, texas, nine dead. 2017, sutherland springs, 27 dead. 2018, santa fe, texas, ten dead. 2019, odessa, texas, eight dead. 2019, el paso, texas, 23 dead. 2022, uvalde, texas, 22 dead. now, just in the last week or so, cleveland, texas, five dead. allen, texas, nine dead. that is the state of texas, and

those are little children and far too many of those. >> that's the death toll. >> jonathan, again, this is happening because greg abbott does nothing. this is happening because the state legislature does nothing. and they claim that these slaughters have to continue, that little children have to continue to be slaughtered in the name of freedom. almost like some sick, ritualistic, ancient sacrifice of children's blood for their -- i almost said a word i shouldn't say -- for their screwed up view of a radicalized, hyper-individualized freedom that our founders never anticipated.

that the supreme court of the united states has never interpreted. that the second amendment has never said. that is the law of the land. there are states that have banned military style weapons. the supreme court has been asked to overturn them and has said time and time again, "nope, nope, that's okay, that's legal. what they did in connecticut is legal. what they did in california is legal." that is legal, and, yet, states like texas allow the slaughters to continue. greg abbott keeps trying to change the subject when, again, i'm going to keep saying it, 90% of americans want universal background checks. 80% of americans want red flag laws. the majority of americans want ar-15s banned. these people are radically, radically out of step with the rest of america, and, yet, as

you say, they let the slaughters in uvalde, texas, sutherland springs, texas, santa fe, midland, texas, dallas, texas, continue, continue, continue. >> joe, you'd be right to use whatever word you want. this is american exceptionalism. this is the only country where this happens routinely, nearly on a weekly basis. these days, it feels like a daily basis. we have failed when it comes to protecting our children. we have failed our citizens who are afraid to go anywhere. church, country music concert, mall, synagogue, it doesn't matter. anywhere you are, you are vulnerable, particularly if you live in a state like texas. we just ran through the list, and there's a correlation between the number of shootings and the easing of gun restrictions in that state. it's easier to have a gun. it's easier to carry a gun. therefore, more people are shooting. let's remember, this governor, governor abbott, is the same one

who a few years ago tweeted that he was embarrassed that texas has slipped to number two in the country in new gun purchases. he urged his citizens to pick it up and buy more firearms. >> charlie, in case people are going, yeah, okay, these people got shot. texas is a big state. let's underline it again, the number one killer of children in america, and i guarantee you in the state of texas, guns. >> this is breathtaking. i have to say that the reverend and jonathan have triggered me. when we choose the guns over the children, that's a sign of a deep sickness. jonathan's point about, this is american exceptionalism, we are exceptional in this respect. and, you know, on the question of mental illness, and, joe, you've been raising this issue, are americans exceptionally insane? are we exceptionally more prone to this kind of violence, or is there something else going on here?

there's american carnage, and it's become absolutely routine. i think you're right to highlight the policies in texas. i mean, it's not just the policies, it is also the attitude and the reaction and the kinds of spin that governor abbott puts on this. the way that we have created this culture that celebrates, that celebrates the gun despite, you know, the horrific injury, but also celebrates this crassness, this indifference to violence, or this willingness to accept it. to elise's point earlier, look, if this was happening on a regular basis, if islamic terrorists were killing this many people, if this many people were dying in plane crashes on a regular basis, this country would mobilize. politicians would not be saying, "there's nothing we can do about this," trust me. >> i've said it the morning after january 6th. if it were islamic terrorists

attacking the capitol, they would have been gunned down in, like, 10 seconds. it would have been over. if just one of these attacks was islamic extremism, my god, there would have been such a reaction, an extreme reaction, that, well, we wouldn't have to worry about that happening again for quite some time. but here, mika -- >> nothing, they do nothing. >> -- they talk about mental health. by the way -- >> they do nothing. >> -- i will challenge republicans again. okay, mental health is not the reason these people are dying, by the way. it's guns. but you want to talk about mental health. you think you're going to get away from something? go ahead. fundamental health. >> let's address it. >> the united states of america, states like texas, states like florida,

underfund mental health services. so go ahead. >> makes everything they're saying a joke. >> increase spending on mental health five times, ten times of what it is right now, because it is so radically underfunded, that that's another crisis we have to talk about on this show all the time. >> absolutely. >> do that. but also remember, while you're doing that, americans are going to finally wake up. americans are finally going to demand that you listen to the 90% of them who say we want universal background checks. 80% who say we want red flag laws passed. the majority who say, we want ar-15s banned. that is going to happen at some point, as children keep getting slaughtered. >> well -- >> so you can continue to allow children to be slaughtered, or you can do the right thing now and be where most of america is. >> yeah. also, the kids who have grown up afraid for their lives,

witnessing these things, they're going to run for office and they're going to beat you. like, do we have to wait that long for the people who are living through this nightmare. >> traumatized. >> from the beginning of their lives. they are the ones who are going to step up because you can't. >> yeah. still ahead on "morning joe," new polling shows president biden trailing former president trump in a 2024 matchup. we're digging into those numbers and what they could mean in the race for the white house. plus, donald trump misses the deadline to testify in the civil rape case against him. >> he said he was going to go to new york. >> anyone surprised he didn't show up? >> but he said he was going to go. he lied? did he lie? because he said, "i'm going to go to new york and confront her." >> right. we are hearing from the former president in newly released deposition tapes. those are fascinating. also this morning, congressman pete aguilar and the house's third ranking democrat is our guest amid the ongoing

fight amid the debt ceiling. and this programming note. tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern, another edition of "joe scarborough presents," right here on msnbc. he'll cover everything happening in texas, plus his interview with john fetterman on his battle back to work on capitol hill after being treated for clinical depression. you will not want to miss this powerful interview. >> so moving. >> also, joe's conversations with media giant tyler perry and award-winning show-runner shonda rhimes. that's tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. my asthma felt anything but normal. a blood test helped show my asthma is driven by eosinophils, which nucala helps reduce.

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35 past the hour. a live look at the white house as the sun has yet to come up over washington. two weeks after he officially announced his re-election campaign, polling shows president joe biden's approval rating has hit a new low. in the latest "washington post"/abc news survey, 37% of registered voters say they approve of the president's job performance. his lowest figure for that poll since returning to office. but there are also some troubling numbers for biden's most likely opponent in the 2024 general election, donald trump. in the survey, more than half of all voters say trump should face criminal charges for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election. his role in the january 6th insurrection and for his alleged mishandling of classified documents after leaving the white house. despite this, the survey shows

trump leading biden by six points in a 2020 rematch. 45% to 39%. >> well, you know, i'm not good at math, and i'll prove it again, but it seems to me, charlie sykes, if 55% of americans think donald trump should be indicted and sent to jail, i understand why democrats are worried about joe biden's numbers. they should be worried. they are low. at the same time, if 55% of americans think he should be indicted and face criminal charges, and only 39% don't, maybe that's why he's at 45%. there's not a real upside to donald trump. so republicans understand this. it's why they're panicked. the democratic party right now, everywhere i go, everybody is all so panicked about joe biden. i just wonder, charlie, everybody keeps saying, this looks like the race we're going

to have, and i just have to ask right now, is it? >> yeah, i'm afraid so. i'm afraid that we are stuck with this. and, by the way, i think both parties are right to panic. i think they have reasons to be very, very concerned. look, i mean, this poll may be an outlier and it may be early but this also needs to be a walk-up call. this is really possible. it is possible that donald trump could be elected president with all that that means and all the implications of all of that. it also exposes, i think, joe and mika, i think it exposes the hollow men of the republican party who have been so reluctant to call out donald trump's unfitness. because they've been basing a lot of their critique on the fact he's unelectable. well, that whole argument, you know, that donald trump can't win, that's kind of being blown up at the moment. at some point, if we're going to address the reality of the situation, republicans are going to have to talk about what donald trump should not be the

nominee for and not be put back in the oval office. democrats need to wake up, that simply the craziness and the ill illegality and indictments of donald trump are not going to save us in 2024. no one is coming to save us. this is going to be up to us. i think the people have been waiting for something to come along, whether it's an indictment, that will save us from this. no, it's up to us at this point. >> charlie, in your article in "the atlantic," "america's lowest standard," you crystallize the situation. you write in part, the twice impeached, defeated former president has been indicted on multiple felony charges and may face more. he is a chronic liar and a fraudster. he also played a role in fomenting the january 6th insurrection. trump has called for the suspension of the constitution

and dined with a white supremacist. and he traffics in racist invective and conspiracy theories. you continue, hamilton thought he had fireproofed the presidency from mountebanks and charlatans because we'd seek out the best and brightest among us. instead, we have apparently saved our lowest standards for the presidency. after the release of the "access hollywood" tape, the gop decided that character did not, after all, matter. seven years later, neither the indictments or paying hush money to a porn star, nor the accusations of assault and rape are disqualifying for republican voters. in the 2024 contest for the presidency, they hardly even register. if you look at that deposition tape for the e. jean carroll case, he's asked about what she said on the "access hollywood "tape. i mean -- >> let's take a listen to it. >> all right. >> play it and listen to the

part where he says, "maybe it's not a bad thing." >> could be a good thing. >> that people like trump are able to sexually assault women. listen. >> and you say, again, this has become very famous in this video, "i just start kissing them. it's like a magnet. just kiss. i don't even wait. when you're a star, they let you do it. you can do anything. grab them by the [ bleep ]. you can do anything." that's what you said, correct? >> historically, that's true with stars. >> it's true with stars, that they can grab women by the [ bleep ]? >> well, that's what -- if you look over the last million years, i guess that's been largely true. not always but largely true. unfortunately or fortunately. >> you consider yourself to be a star? >> i think you can say that, yeah. >> yeah, so he takes what he said with "access hollywood" and, elise, he says, "well,

maybe it's a good thing." he said, "unfortunately or fortunately, maybe," it's a good thing that he can sexually assault women because he is a, quote, star. he said that, evangelical. he said that, republican voters. he said in 2023, maybe it's a good thing that he, donald trump, can sexually assault women, even when they're not expecting it or want it. >> i just started laughing out of pure disgust. i looked over at the red and was just, like, what is he, a caveman, saying men have done this for a million years, so why not just keep going forward with it? i mean, that showed such an absolute lack of remorse and no growth whatsoever, which i think is kind of par for the course with donald trump and what we need to expect and brace ourselves for over this campaign

cycle. >> this is why it is, you know, it is very, very complicated moving forward, covering this nominee who is now indicted and is seen on a deposition. i mean, along with all the things that charlie listed in his piece, and that doesn't cover everything, but this is a man who talks about in his definition his type, and how e. jean carroll wasn't his type, so, therefore, he wouldn't rape her? >> confused her as his wife in pictures. in. >> in a flash of anger, tells the attorney, "you're not my type either. you're a disgrace." this is your guy. >> this is the evangelical's choice. this is the republican party's choice. people are going to look back. you know, they look back on bull connor, how did that happen? that i going to look back on texas and the guns, the gunfire. they're going to look back on

donald trump. they're going to look back on the heinousness and the racism and the white supremacy and everything else. they're going to look back at the voters and say, now, why did these people allow bull connor to continue to be police chief in birmingham? why did they allow donald trump, when he talked about, bragged about in 2016 -- or the tape came out in 2016, again in 2023, that maybe he had the right to sexually and assault women. he's a front runner. that said, rev, 55% of americans think that donald trump should be indicted. we're looking at joe biden's poll numbers, and we should. democrats should be freaked out. but republicans have a candidate that's got 55% of americans thinking that he should be indicted, arrested and sent to jail because of january 6th, because he tried to rig the

election, and because the classified documents that he refused to return to the united states government. that ain't holding a -- that's not -- nobody is sitting in the republican party at the table holding four aces there either. >> no. what is alarming, if not frightening, is that 55% of americans feel that he should be indicted and prosecuted. yet, there's no movement in the republican party to really deal with stopping him. and you can't come up with a candidate in the republican primaries, announced or expected to announce, that will take him on. so we're going from what you quoted hamilton saying, the best and the brightest will run for president, to the slickest and the sickest. because this guy is sick, to say that we go back a million years and this is how it was done. i mean, this is real madness for someone to openly, on a

deposition -- let's remember now, he's under oath, knowing he is being taped. for him to say this and our to even entertain this man could be the leader of the western world, and his own party won't stand up to it. >> hey, rev, rev, he said this in a deposition where a woman has accused him of sexually assaulting her without her permission, and he is saying he has a right to do that as a star. that men have been able to do that for a million years if they were, quote, stars, so maybe he has the right to do it today. >> which is actually confessing by his own words. >> yes! >> that, yeah, this is what i do. this is the way it's been done for a million years. and we're going to let this man, using elise's analogy, this caveman, back in the oval office? i mean, this caveman mentality,

not him a caveman himself. this is madness. and if you allow this madness to go, you will allow military style weapons to go. you will allow all that goes with it because you're dealing with the mentality that we operate in some kind of prehistoric times rather than some civilized gatherings of nations that are governed by tl laws and principles. >> to rev's point, it's all connected. this is someone who is doubling down on the "access hollywood" tape, which is eight odd years later. also, of course, he gets a town hall this week on primetime television. we should mention, joe and mika, also, that trump deeply flawed. this is why so many republicans who want to break from trump are so panicked right now, because he leads the polls within the gop primary. because they look at the biden numbers and see a very vulnerable incumbent and think, gosh, if we could put anyone

else up by trump, we'd have a better shot at this. this one poll suggests trump is ahead of biden, but it is early and one poll, a bit of an outlier. one democrat yesterday, senior democrat texted me, saying they hope this might be a wake-up call for this white house, which feels like -- the fear is they feel like if it is a rematch, this white house is being overconfident. this is the race they want, biden versus trump again. they beat him in '20. we know the arguments, that the swing voters and independent voters broke against trump in '20, probably would again in '24. the trump-biden rematch, advantage biden, it would seem, but it's a jump ball. it is a 50/50 nation, more or less. the electoral college gives the republicans some advantages, and i think there is a sense, particularly if we case as a nation some economic headwinds, that's trouble for biden. i think there's a sense here that the white house needs to change its thinking a little bit about this potential rematch. that's what some democrats are saying anyway.

>> well, listen, i think the reason why this poll shot around the way it did yesterday, even though it's a year out, it could be an outlier, is because, jonathan, you and i, i know the rev has, anybody that is around democrats regularly, democratic leaders, they're all scared to death. they really are. i know nobody inside the white house here is regularly. we hear it all the time. democratic leaders are just as scared of joe biden, whether that's fair or not, and we've explained a thousand times why we don't think it's fair, but that's the reality among democratic leaders, among the democratic base, just like it is among republican leaders and the republican base with donald trump. that's the most fascinating thing about this poll, is both sides are so weak. i say both sides are so weak because, jonathan, every time donald trump says witch hunt, you look at this poll and you know, the majority of americans

say, no, no. 55% say you need to get arrested and go to jail for what you did in trying to overturn the election. 54% say, no, no, not a witch hunt. you need to be arrested, indielt indicted, arrested and sent to jail in relation to what you did for the january 6th insurrection. 54%. the classified documents case, lying to the feds, obstructing justice, 53% say yes. look at that, 39%, only -- not even four out of ten, jonathan, not even four out of ten would tell a pollster that he should not be arrested, should not be indicted, should not go to jail. i mean, this -- i mean, i'm sorry, if you're a democrat or republican, biden is behind right now in this one poll. >> very biden-friendly scenario, actually. >> i look at the trump numbers, and i can't tell you about joe biden and his future.

i can tell you, i'm still where i've always been with donald trump. he can't win the suburbs of atlanta. he can't win the suburbs of philly. he can't win the suburbs of milwaukee. he can't win the suburbs of detroit. which means he can't win the white house. so the question is, are the republicans going to stay with this guy that the majority of americans think should be indicted, arrested and sent to jail? and a guy who says this year that he has the right to sexually assault women? or are they going to try to finally win an election? that's the question. >> that is the question. to this point, the answer seems to be they're sticking with trump. with all of that baggage. he has one indictment under his belt already, and it sure looks like more could be coming in the months ahead. we're being clear-eyed about this. this could be a tough stretch for president biden. title 42 expiring this week. you know, we know that there are concerns about the debt ceiling,

the meeting at the white house is tomorrow. there are some rattling shakes in the economy. people are watching for what might happen to hunter biden in the weeks and months ahead. but those are all legitimate, but none of it compares to this with donald trump, who is already himself under criminal indictment. we saw the way he behaved in office for four years, inspiring an insurrection, undoubtedly going to be facing at least one more indictment, if not more than one, in the months ahead. he is deeply, and many would argue, fatality flawed as a general election candidate. maybe this helps him now with the republicans, but it'll hurt him next year. that's where we are right now. that's why though the poll -- trump's lead over biden certainly raised eyebrows, alarmed democrats, but those numbers there we highlighted, the concerns about trump and his criminal future, that should be just as worrisome, if not more so, to republicans. well, coming up, new reporting entitled "in the post

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there is a group of women suing the state of texas over its near complete abortion ban. among them, one who developed life-threatening sepsis and spent days in the icu after being told by hospital doctors that, although her baby had no chance of survival, she was not sick enough to have an abortion. her story, along with interviews with texas doctors who are navigating the state's abortion ban, are highlighted in a new piece in "the new yorker" entitled "letting pregnant women get sicker by design." stephania taladrid.

you said, like the texas doctors i spoke to, and other hospitals across conservative states, described units where, today, workers must shoulder responsibilities that havesavin love -- lives of mothers, let alone doing little harm. by design, doctors have been offering treatment they feel is right for a patient, now weighed against the risk of legal repercussions that might cost them their livelihoods or land them in prison. they've been soliciting the opinions of hospital lawyers and ethicists. they've been considering institutional liability and struggling to reinterpret concepts, such as due diligence. in short, in a context of fear and bureaucratic anxiety, they have been scrambling, trying to reconcile abortion law language with the daily urgencies of

women they're encountering on gurneys in emergency room cubicles. just how endangered does a sick patient have to be before her doctor can intervene, and how much time can a doctor and her colleagues take in deciding before it's too late for a patient? let's start right there, stephania. when a woman is enduring sepsis, often, the condition can come on really fast. there isn't time for a hospital board and lawyers to meet, and women are now being caught in the middle of this and enduring intense pain, trauma, agony, and often being sterilized because of the position they're left in, something that could have been prevented. am i wrong? >> no, absolutely not. thank you for having me. i mean, as the head in texas

mentioned to me, this is a question of minutes, right? you're lucky if you have even hours, not even days, right? and so the decision to intervene, the decision to treat a woman must come fast. and i think it's really helpful to put this into context. because we've been warned that the overturning of roe would have tremendous implications for women around the country, even before the ruling was announced. you might remember that "the lancet," the medical journal, said, "women will die," right? what we've seen, in a country that is already one of the richest nations with the highest rates of maternal death, the impact is absolutely clear, right? now, we have doctors who, for quite some time, i think, were reluctant to talk about what they were seeing in texas and elsewhere, come out and say, "this is unquestionable," you

know, and it is resulting in more harm to the patients we're treating. >> this story is just god awful. there's no real way to put it otherwise. what kind of -- i mean, aside from laws that actually empower doctors to treat patients as they see medically reasonable and in their opinion, i mean, i guess there's -- you know, this is just a legal issue. we can raise hell all we want about it, but at the end of the day, the law is the law. so women are just going to be consigned to suffer. >> right. and what the center for reproductive rights case you mentioned is asking for is more clarity, right? texas, like many other states where abortion is now illegal, has several abortion bans, right? it has sb-8, which went into effect in 2021. it has a trigger law and a pre-roe ban in effect. each of those bans has its own

exceptions. you can just imagine how confusing it is for doctors who are treating patients with life-threatening conditions, to figure out, well, which law am i supposed to abide by, and which exception am i supposed to take into account here, right? it's just absolutely confusing to them. >> all right. contributing writer at "the new yorker", stephania taladrid, thank you for the incredible piece you wrote. >> mika, this is what we were talking about over easter. >> it's scary to get pregnant now for women. >> people who were pro life their entire lives were talking about stories like this, were talking about how women are no longer safe. >> no. >> i actually have -- know somebody that his wife and he moved out of a red state to a

blue state, and they're actually thinking about having a child. said that they're going to have to stay in the blue state if there are complications. if there are complications, they don't want to be in the position that these women are in. >> people are picking colleges as it pertains to these laws. >> republicans are. this is not some democratic thing. again, at easter, we heard from republicans who all had a different story like this, talking about how insane these laws are. >> it is. charlie, final thoughts before you go today. >> you know, it's interesting listening to that conversation. in the 1990s, remember that book, "the big sort," talked about how we were sorting ourselves out geographically by politics? i think we may be in the midst of a new big sort, a sort of cold civil war, where people are moving with their feet to states

where they feel safe, where they feel they're going to be respected. all of these policies are going to have dramatic implications, both for, say, higher education, but also for the economy. of course, that's one of the backgrounds of some of the things that are happening in both texas and in florida. it's going to be interesting looking back on this a couple decades from now, to see all of the life choices that are being made driven by these public policies. >> all right. charlie sykes, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thanks, charlie. few minutes before the top of the hour, our top story this hour, another mass shooting has claimed the lives of eight people. this happened at a shopping mall outside dallas, texas. it's now one of more than 200 mass shootings in the u.s. this year. nbc news correspondent priscilla thompson has the latest. [ gunshots ] >> reporter: gunshots shattering the peace of a saturday afternoon shopping trip.

>> we need an ambulance. >> we need to get these people to the ambulance. >> reporter: eight people were killed and seven more injured, including children, police say, after a gunman opened fire at this sprawling outlet mall in allen, texas, just north of dallas. the victims' identities not yet revealed. >> i've got one more white or hispanic male subject, wearing a black tactical guard, armed with an ar. he's got some white lettering on the vest that says police or security. >> reporter: dash cam video shows the moment the alleged shooter got out of his car and began firing. [ gunshots ] >> reporter: the suspect was killed by an officer who police say was already on scene for an unrelated call. >> he heard gunshots, went to the gunshots, engaged the suspect and neutralized the suspect. >> reporter: law enforcement officials say the shooter was 33-year-old mauricio garcia, who had interacted with neo-nazi and white supremacist content

online. police searching the home of the alleged shooter as neighbors watched in disbelief. >> just quiet. walking up and down the block, didn't say much, always alone. >> he went to high school with some of the neighbors, and they said he was always very quiet. >> reporter: the scene one that is all too familiar. americans in fear, forced to run, hide and pray. >> we ran to the back, barricaded it with concrete bricks, then right then on the security camera, thank god we went in the back at that time, we saw him walk right back. masked up, fake police outfit on. >> reporter: survivors returned to the scene to collect their vehicles, many still in shock. >> we heard all these shots starting. she had to spin out there. if she hadn't have come in the store, she probably -- >> i was on the edge. >> reporter: as another grief-stricken community gathers to mourn and to heal.

>> all right. let's bring in congressman pete aguilar of california. he is chair of the house democratic caucus, the party's number three position. thank you very much for being on this morning. >> congressman, the shootings continue. sadly, tragically, almost every day. greg abbott, he'll focus on -- >> deflect, avoid, completely deny. >> -- illegal immigrant status, you know, right after they've been slaughtered, or he'll talk about mental health. in but do what 90% of americans want him and other texas governors to do. >> that's absolutely true. it's shocking but not surprising that the governor would take those positions. house democrats have continually advocated for sensible gun reform policies. the american public supports those, universal background

checks, making our communities safer. those are the types of things we're going to continue to support. but it's just shocking and saddening that the governor of texas would continue to say these things. clearly, the statistics bear this out. you know, my heart goes out to these communities in texas, but, you know, clearly, this has to do with leadership, as well. there are open carry rules that absolutely play a role in this. >> there was able to be some progress a year ago on the federal level on guns. there seems to be little to no appetite this time around. the republicans in the house aren't even willing to really talk about it. what can you right now as a lawmaker, what is your sense of -- is it frustration? what can you do, can you push colleagues? what can the white house do? what do you think? >> we can't stop doing things. our job is to write laws and pass legislation. that's what we need to do. the bipartisan gun safety

legislation that passed last year was great. it was the most comprehensive that was done in 30 years. it wasn't enough. clearly, we're seeing that now. making investments in our communities, making investments in states to tighten up their red flag laws, those are absolutely worthy investments. investments in mental health. can and should we do more? absolutely. should we look at the age in which individuals can buy firearms? absolutely. background checks, those types of things have stalled in the united states senate. i don't speak senate, but i can tell you, house democrats have continually advocated for comprehensive reform here. we're going to continue to do that. >> congressman, in the back room discussions, when you're away from the cameras, away from any public exposure, and you're talking to members of the opposition party, is there any sense at all that there's some understanding of the human factor that we're dealing with

here? we're talking about in the last two weeks, kids being killed because they asked the neighbor to quit shooting because it was keeping the infant up at night. five people died. now, people in this -- in texas, same state, being killed going shopping. i mean, is there any way when you're away from everything else, people are not profiling for votes, that you can get through to these people and say, "do you understand we're in a civilization crisis almost in this country"? >> it's hard. it's hard to break through that, rev, to be honest with ya. it's difficult. we understand that the politics are tough for them, and republicans don't want to advance legislation that doesn't have a majority or, you know, over 200 votes of their own colleagues. so that becomes a difficulty. but i'll tell ya, each and every one of us has stories about mass shootings and gun violence in our district. you know, mine was 2025.

i'd been a legislator for 11 months, and a mass shooting in san bernardino, where i'm from. all of us are touched by this in our own communities, and it is shocking that more republicans don't want to come to the table. i think it also shows the hollowed out, moderate republicans that don't really exist anymore. >> congressman, two other issues we want to cover with you. the debt ceiling, of course, and the deadline, and the border. this news out of texas, at least eight people were killed and ten others injured by a driver who plowed into a crowd of migrants in the border city of brownsville. the group was standing at a bus stop outside a catholic charity center yesterday morning. surveillance video shows driver of an suv going straight into the crowd and then wrecking the vehicle. now, investigators are trying to figure out if it was intentional. they say the driver is a

hispanic male who is not cooperating and has given several names. he is charged with reckless driving, but more charges are likely. police are looking into reports from survivors who said the driver yelled anti-immigrant slurs at them while they detained him at the scene. meanwhile, president biden is defending his decision to send additional troops to the u.s./mexico border. 1,500 troops were to help with the influx as title 42 expires this week. the policy allowed the white house to expel people from the country rapidly. in an interview with msnbc's stephanie ruhle, the president said, the additional troops will help speed the asylum process. he also called on congress to pass an immigration bill. >> 1,500 people at the border, they're not there to enforce the law. they're there to free up the border agents that need to be on

the border. and we're having another 1,000 people coming in, asylum judges, to make judgments and move things along. i've asked this congress for help in terms of what they need at the border. they need more agents. they need more people to clear people. they need more action. for example, we need these farm workers. they're badly needed. there needs to be a legal pathway to citizenship. >> congressman, title 42 expiring, what do you make, what do you think of the president's approach to what is happening at the border? >> well, house democrats want order at the border. we want asylum seekers treated with dignity and respect. we understand the importance of making investments to ensure that happens. president biden submitted a budget to congress that would have done that. it would have made investments in border security. it would have increased customs and border patrol officers. what we saw recently out of

house republicans is they would cut these programs. what we need to do is offer that certainty, and we need to make sure that these asylum seekers have fairness. we want to give the president a space to devise a plan that makes sense in a post title 4 42 world. this was a public health measure, and we've moved beyond the public health measure. this is on congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform and fix our broken immigration system. that's on us. i don't trust house republicans to do this. time and time again, house democrats have done just that and have advanced policies and bills to do that. >> democrats agree with republicans, that there's chaos at the border, right? i mean, democrats, i'm sure, are focused on the humanitarian crisis that's been at the southern border now for several years. and, by the way, congressman, i

know you know this, as well, it's only going to get worse. if we continue to allow chaos to reign at the southern border, we're only asking other people from impoverished nations south of us to come up and try to get to the united states illegally, only to undergo their own humanitarian crisis as they, you know, risk their lives only to be turned away. >> we need an orderly process, i agree with you, joe. that's absolutely something that we need to do. what we -- what house democrats want to also make sure we focus on are these root causes of migration. people are fleeing difficult and dangerous conditions. they're fleeing economic issues. they're fleeing because of climate change, and they aren't able to farm the land they used to farm with -- >> congressman, i totally get this. but we've been saying this for three, four, five, ten, 15 years. there is a massive crisis at the southern border right now. i'm not telling you anything you don't know. but it's only getting worse.

it is going to continue to get worse over the next two, three, four, five years, unless we do something now. so what can we do? >> well, some of the investments that the administration is planning to make, these processing centers, still need to be stood up outside of the united states so people can process for asylum, to declare asylum. those are positive steps. people right now are able to use an app to schedule a time to meet with an asylum officer. those are reasonable. but this is a western hemisphere problem. migration, the root causes of migration, what we do with it is something that isn't just a united states issue. we need to have more countries at the table to have this conversation, to make sure, whether it's eastern europe or whether it's our southern border, that people fleeing migration for a variety of reasons have an ability to declare asylum that is legal and

lawful, which is currently the case now. but we need to make sure that it's done in a humane way, and that the countries, the host countries, can process those individuals. that's what we're struggling with now. >> congressman, we want to turn you to the debt ceiling. the deadline obviously approaching. we may be less than a month away at this point. tomorrow, the president is hosting congressional leaders at the white house. give us your, first of all, level of concern right now that a deal hasn't been reached. secondly, do you agree with the white house's approach, that they're not going to negotiate on the debt ceiling? they'll negotiate on the budget. they say it's separate thing. is that still the right way to do this with the clock ticking? >> i do. to answer your question, i'm incredibly con earn issed. i'm incredibly concerned that house republicans, now joined by a letter from senate republicans, clearly want to get closer to default. but i agree with the president's position. we shouldn't negotiate this. i voted to increase the debt

limit, as did my colleagues, three times in the trump administration. this has been done 78 times under democrats and republicans. the public only hears about it when a democrat is in the white house. let's increase the debt limit. let's do it in a clean way, then let's have a conversation about budgets. president biden has a budget, by the way. house republicans don't. it makes investment. we can talk about spending and also revenue. that's an incredible part, an important part of the conversation. but i agree with the president's position here. >> mika, i have to underline what the congressman said. republicans don't give a damn about the deficit. they don't give a damn about the debt. they don't give a damn about the debt ceiling when there is a democrat in the white house. >> i know. >> i'm sorry, when there is a republican in the white house. >> yeah. >> look at my twitter feed, watch this show. over the four years donald trump was president of the united states, i kept begging them to do something about the record deficits that donald trump republicans were rolling up.

the record debt that donald trump republicans were rolling up. they did -- the budget-busting budgets that donald trump and republicans were rolling up, they didn't care about it. suddenly, now they care about, and they're willing to wreck the economy because there's a democrat in the white house instead of a republican. it's the same thing with illegal immigration. you never hear from 'em, do you? illegal immigration, illegal border crossings across the southern border were at 50 year lows when barack obama left the white house. >> nobody talks about that. >> nobody talks about it. >> congressman pete aguilar of california, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. >> thank you, congressman. >> we appreciate it. >> thank you so much. still ahead on "morning joe," what we're learning about new immunity deals in the fulton county d.a.'s investigation of donald trump's efforts to overturn georgia's 2020 election results. >> this looks like it is getting more serious. >> this is -- >> every day.

>> -- heating up. plus, president biden is coming to his son hunter's defense, as prosecutors are said to be nearing a decision on possibly charging him with tax and firearms violations. >> by the way, if, if that happens, and if hunter biden is charged, note, democrats, unlike republicans, will not call for an end to the fbi or an end to the department of justice, because, i don't know, i guess it's only republicans that think the powerful are above the law. >> right. what the president is saying about that. also ahead, the inside story on supreme course justice clarence thomas and his wife ginny's path to political influence in washington. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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this tangled web around justice clarence thomas just gets worse and worse by the day. i don't know what's going to come up next. i thought i'd heard it all, but more disclosures about his activities, it just embarrasses me. the question is whether it embarrasses the supreme court and the chief justice. >> the number two democrat in the senate, dick durbin of illinois, speaking yesterday about the wave of recent allegations surrounding supreme court justice clarence thomas and his wife ginny. last month, the pulitzer prize-winning news site pro publica revealed that, for years, the thomases have been benefitting from a relationship with billionaire donor harlan

crow. those allegations and the upbringing of clarence and ginni thomas are the focus of a new documentary from front line and pbs. >> clarence thomas accepted millions of dollars. >> ginny under scrutiny. >> she grew up with republican activism. >> he felt resentment, victimization, anger. >> their influence. >> roe versus wade is overruled. >> they are the "it" couple of the far right. >> wow, joining us now, producer and director of "clarence and ginni thomas: politics, power and the supreme court," michael kirk. thank you for being on this morning. this documentary, i mean, in light of the revelations from pro publica, of trips worth

hundreds of thousands of dollars, of school tuition and homes being paid for, you take a look at what shaped these two people, politically, and how it might have come to this point. can you tell us what you found? >> well, it's a -- thanks for having me here. it's an amazing tale. we started out just to try to figure out why people were calling it the thomas court and not the roberts court or the alito court. once we dove in there, into that conservative world and how thomas is who thomas is, we started -- it meant we had to get back into his life and go all the way up to now. it's a fascinating story, almost like -- our film says it is almost novelistic he becomes who he becomes and the way he does it. especially the part where he meets up with ginni. you discover all the things you didn't know about her, which is also tremendously interesting

and endlessly fascinating to me. and we're not done yet. here comes the news again over and over again. >> right. >> that's how we started, and that's where we ended up. >> so can you tell us what you found out about the backgrounds of these two individuals or their relationship, and then when the pro publica news broke, i take it you were probably already working on this, how did those revelations fit into everything you were finding? >> it's very interesting. what you discover about thomas in his life is that a set of resentments and grievances that grow out of rejection, rejection all across the board. when he was a little kid in georgia living in desperate circumstances. the other black kids made fun of him. his mother handed him over to his very stern and abusive grandfather. he goes off to the seminary to try to become the first black priest in savannah, georgia.

the whole community is -- black community is eager for him to succeed. he fails. he comes back home, rejected by the grandfather. goes off to yale law school as part of affirmative action. he is rejected there. on and on and on. it's a story of clarence looking for home, and home, by the time we get to here, is rich, conservative white people. ginni, her story is very, you know, midwestern, couldn't be more different than clarence's. what you discover is she grows up in a family of more conservative, goldwater republicans, john birch society, all that. her world becomes binary. she's on a spiritual crusade. every since she was a young girl in omaha. when the two get together, that's when the sparks fly, and they aim for where they are now. >> michael, al sharpton.

do you get into the sense that justice thomas really is a true believer in what he is supporting, voted for as a justice? i ask that because around maybe 15 years ago, he wrote a memoir. a mutual friend of ours asked me to sit with him. i did go over with a lot of reluctance to meet with him in his chamber. and i was absolutely amazed, that even with just three of us in the room, that he really believes in this crazy stuff, in my opinion crazy, that he advocates. there was -- you know, i guess i was waiting for him to wink and say, "yeah, you know, brother, so and so." but, no, he really acts like he believes that stuff. do you get into how this builds up, that this guy, as wrong and backward as i think his decisions are for the country, he seems to be a true believer

which, to me, is even more depressing. >> it's fascinating, reverend. he -- and it's a good retelling of the way that he feels now. it wasn't always so. in the '60s, he was -- he loved the black panthers. people called him clarence-x, as his idol was malcolm x. separaism was everything he believed in, and it included interracial marriage. you watch the trajectory, coming out of the rejection, and each time he is rejected by a different group, he's seeking home, he follows the politics of whatever the group is that's going to support him. so by the time he's in reagan's washington, where he's joined the republican revelation with reagan, because as one person said in the film, the line was shorter for black people over there than it is with the democratic party. clarence noticed that and began

to adapt and adopt the politics of reagan, so that he could support him from the background. that was really the ticket for him to move up and raise enough eyebrows and enough attention for himself to become, potentially, a nominee for the united states supreme court in a republican administration. >> michael, elise jordan here. it's very rare for the spouse of a supreme court justice to be so front and center and politically active. can you tell us what you learned about how they met and what kind of influence ginni thomas has had on her husband's belief system? >> ginni was raised by -- she was the -- she was what she called a mistake child. older, much older siblings, parents very, very, very political conservative and active in omaha. rather than rejecting her parents like almost everybody in america does, especially during the '60s, ginni became a true

believer. went with her mother to the conventions. her mom was a follower and one of the leaders of the movement, and ginni was right in there the whole way. binary view of the world, not different than clarence's, by t time they met, was very much moing away from the black world, the black support, his home in the black world, to white people. there was ginni also moving away from liberalism, from feminism and all of that. they get together at a convention against anti-affirmative action in new york. they share a cab, and the rest becomes sort of history. it's fascinating because clarence had been in a real trough before meeting ginni. no nurturing, nobody close, not a really close friend. he'd been drinking too much.

his marriage had fallen apart. ginni comes in and gives him the feel of home, whatever that is, and also becomes his primary adviser. at a moment, he's not reading national news, not paying attention to anything, and ginni is his eyes and ears on the world. ginni and rush limbaugh, who becomes a great friend of his. >> oh, my gosh. >> between the two of them, that's how his world view gets established. to get back to the reverend's point, if your advisers, your top advisers are ginni thomas and rush limbaugh, that explains an awful lot about how he ends up who he ends up being. >> sure does. "clarence and ginni thomas, politics, power and the supreme court," it premieres tomorrow night on pbs. producer and director michael kirk, thank you very much for

coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. coming up, a former mvp mixes it up with a team owner, sitting courtside. we'll show you that strange moment. also ahead, a woman wanted for taking part in the insurrection at the capitol is identified after a viral tweet by the fbi. we'll bring you more details in that story. "morning joe" is coming right back. what, are we rich?! ♪ ♪ are we rich? we could get a personal chef! i heard about this guy on the news that, that serves a very rare species of fish. highly illegal. he's wanted by interpol. we could have his scary fish whenever we want! - we're not rich... i used kayak to compare hundreds of travel sites to get a great deal on our flight, car, and hotel. - oh. - kayak. search one and done. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance...

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i've proven myself to be honorable as well as effective. >> president biden addressing the lingering questions about his age in an interview with msnbc's stephanie ruhle. also in that sit-down interview, president biden defended his son, hunter, as the justice department reportedly nears a decision on whether to charge him criminally. >> sir, there is something personal that's affecting you. your son, while there's no ties to you, could be charged by your department of justice. how will that impact your presidency? >> first of all, my son has done nothing wrong. i trust him. i have faith in him. it impacts my presidency by making me feel proud of him. >> federal prosecutors will reportedly soon announce the outcome of a four-year investigation into his youngest son. sources tell nbc news the doj is considering a felony count of tax evasion, a gun-related charge, which could rise to a

felony, and two misdemeanor counts for failure to file taxes. hunter biden has denied any wrongdoing in the tax case, saying he handled the matter, quote, legally and appropriately. jonathan lemire, what are you hearing from the white house about this? obviously, there are people on the far right, on the right, who really want to see hunter biden impacted by the law. >> yeah, i've got some new reporting on this, mika. look, the white house and campaign aides, they know they're going to take a political hit on this either way. either the hunter biden, the son of the president of the united states, is going to be charged criminally, or he won't be, and it'll lead to republican attacks, bad faith attacks, suggesting the department of justice, that the fix was in. they were bias. they weren't going to prosecute a biden, someone with a biden last name. but white house aides think that this will be a manageable political blow. look, they know it's real. they know this is a thing that will be a story line. but they point out a couple

things. first of all, many of these allegations were known in 2020. donald trump tried to make that an issue. obviously, voters chose joe biden anyway. the person at the front of this saying hunter biden should be criminally prosecuted is someone who has already been criminally indicted, donald trump. he faces more legal jeopardy in the months ahead. they think that takes the sting out of it, too. their concern is the toll it might take on the president. this is something where we report that he speaks to friends and aides nearly every day and expresses worry about hunter. we have heard in voicemails that have been leaked, you know, expressions of concern that he's given for hunter. he is -- people close to him say, look, he is a loving father. some americans are deeply sympathetic to hunter biden, who have addiction in their own families. hunter, who acknowledged he made mistaks and acknowledged he had problems with drugs for a long

time, they say it paints a human picture of the biden family. they are steeling for what could be coming in the next few weeks, but their concern is less political and more personal on joe biden the man. >> jonathan, thank you. now to this, at least eight of the so-called fake electors who signed a certificate falsely stating former president trump won georgia in 2020, they've been given immunity in the fulton county district attorney's investigation into alleged election interference. this according to a new court filing. according to the filing, the eight unnamed individuals agreed to interviews with prosecutors, seven of which were completed between april 11th and april 14th. more than a dozen trump allies agreed to the scheme in 2020 to pose as official georgia electors. fulton county district attorney fanny willis said she'd announce any potential charging decisions by mid july. her office denied a request for

comment. a lawyer for some of the fake electors did not respond to a request for comment. we'll stay on this. also, a federal judge has handed down the longest sentence yet to a january 6th rioter. peter schwartz was sentenced to 14 years and 2 months behind bars for his role in the capitol attack. nbc news reports that the judge did not buy schwartz's apology, and told him, quote, you are not a political prisoner, mr. schwartz. you are not alexei navalny, a reference to the imprisoned russian opposition leader and vladimir putin critic. schwartz, who has 38 prior convictions, was found guilty in december of using a wooden tire knocker and pepper spray to assault officers. and a tweet from the fbi and fbi field office, specifically, has led to the id of an alleged january 6th rioter. this post from late last month

shows a young woman at the capitol during the riots, sporting a pink beret. the most went viral and inspired several jokes even about her appearance as it spread. it eventually caught the attention of someone claiming to be an ex-boyfriend, who reported her to the fbi. by friday, the bureau had identified her as jennifer of los angeles. some jokes included referring to her astilda or emily in incarceration, a play on "emily in paris." up next, the highlights from nba playoff games. also ahead, chicago mayor lori lightfoot will join us for her last national interview before leaving office next week. "morning joe" will be right back.

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bullies his way inside, out to harden for the three, got it! >> james harden was clutch again for the 76ers against the celtics yesterday. his floater at the end of regulation sent the game to overtime, and then harden won it for philadelphia with that go-ahead three-pointer in the final seconds of the extra period. i'm sorry, you can't leave him wide open like that. don't double the big man. that was a mistake. the sixers beat the frustrating celtics, 116-115, to even the series at two games a piece. the teams head back to boston for a pivotal game five tomorrow night. out west in phoenix, thepho suns got even with the nuggets, defeating denver in game four behind 36 points each from kevin durant and devin booker. the 129-124 win coming despite a 53-point night from mvp jokic

who received a technical foul after a bizarre altercation, showing it now, with the suns' owner. jokic appeared to shove him while trying to retrieve a loose ball among the crowd that was courtside along the baseline. the league will likely review the incident and determine whether or not jokic will be fined or suspended. seems to me they should also be looking at the behavior of the owner, who as you can see refuses to give the ball back. game five tomorrow night in denver. you now to someone who never scuffles with a team owner, at least not on television, nbc sports soccer analyst and co-host of "men in blazers," roger bennett. great to see you. a very busy weekend of action on the pitch. take us through it, my friend. >> yes, inkeed. premier league enters its final month like a marathon in which

every brother gets to be a change thing. big game this weekend, plucky arsenal, way up north to newcastle, rejuvenated by new saudi arabian ownership. a battle between second and third, highly anticipated. election night. this is a must-win for arsenal to maintain any part of title race. from outside of the kenny loggins danger zone, a line drive, two nutmegs, 1-0 arsenal. and newcastle, like an empire, struck back, gabriel jesus in a way reminiscent of jokic klatching with the phoenix suns owner. but then four minutes later, schaar would score an ole goal. martinelli making room at the old sao paulo soft shoe shuffle. massive 2-0 win for arsenal, who

have made one point back from man city, new manager sam allardyce. this is a man who is brexit in human form. manchester city cruise to victory, scoring the same goal twice via the same player, gundogan, who from an identical spot channeled the great elvis costello seeing, "my aim is true." the other manchester team, manchester united, owned by the glaziers, stumbled in west ham. joe scarborough's liverpool one point back in the race for fourth. they beat brentford 1-0. the only goal from mo salah, the egyptian king, the one true monarch liverpool fans care about. liverpool, six straight wins. now kwoing going full on. emily dickinson, hope is a thing

with feathers nape still believe. >> roger bennett, thank you. keeps liverpool alive. we appreciate it, my friend. mika, i know you were watching at the edge of your seat this weekend as well. >> yeah, i was. roger's just down right crazy, so thank you. happy monday, roger. still ahead, new polling on if 2024 presidential race that's bad for both president biden and republicans. we'll explain that. also, the latest from the outlet mall massacre in texas as investigators dig into the social media history of the gunman. gunman i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... ...is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased

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she was kneeling like she was praying, i don't want to be too graphic, but i felt for a pulse, turned her head, she had no face. she was already gone. i tried the second victim. he was gone. the third one, i started chest

compressions on, he spit up blood and then he just looked at me and he expired in front of me. >> a former police officer who rushed to help victims of the deadly mass shooting at that outlet mall in texas describing the horrific scene he came upon saturday afternoon. we'll go through the latest developments and hear from survivors in just a moment. and our next guest argues these kinds of tragedies are exactly what the gun industry wants. is it good for business? we'll talk about that. also ahead this hour, we'll be joined by chicago mayor lori lightfoot, starting her last week in office. welcome back to "morning joe." it is monday, may 8th. jonathan lemire, reverend al sharpton and elise are with us. police have identified the

gunman suspected of killing eight people and injuring seven others. the youngest victim just 5 years old. nbc news correspondent morgan chesky has more. >> reporter: overnight, a community marred by gun violence coming together to mourn. a vigil honoring the eight lives lost in now what is the second deadliest mass shooting this year. >> gunshots at the outlet mall. >> reporter: the frantic scene unfolding in allen, texas, just north of dallas. police say 33-year-old mauricio garcia opened fire on saturday at this crowded jut let mall. >> i've got victims. we need an balance. >> reporter: law enforcement officials tell nbc the crimes now being investigated as a case of racial or ethnically motivated violent extremism. two officials say the suspect interacted with neo-nazi and white supremacist continue innocent online. there was a patch with a right-wing acronym on his chest.

sources also confirm police are reviewing this footage, showing the moment the gunman began to open fire on innocent shoppers as families barricaded themselves inside. authorities tell nbc news the shooter wore a tactical vest and was armed with a rifle and handgun. more weapons and ammunition were later found inside his car. >> i heard pow, pow, pow. and everybody ran. >> reporter: the suspect fatally shot by an officer who police say was already there for an unrelated call. >> i need everybody i got. >> reporter: amid the chaos, acts of heroism. some people were huddled inside an h&m store. one of them called his father. former police officer steven spinhour raced to the scene. he immediately began performing first aid on victims, but for some, it was too late. >> a young child was underneath one of the victims, okay, laying on the ground. >> reporter: and their parents? >> they were on the ground. they were dead. >> reporter: the father forced to wait agonizing minutes as

officers led hundreds of shoppers out of the mall before he was finally reunited with his son. the former officer agreeing with so many others that something needs to change. >> this is not a democrat thing, it's not a republican thing. it's an american problem. >> nbc's morgan chesky with that report. this year is already on pace to be one of the worst ever for mass shootings in the u.s. nbc news senior national correspondent kate snow has that part of the story. >> reporter: the outlet mall near dallas. >> we start hearing rap, rap, rap. >> reporter: the atlanta medical office. >> all i seen was police cars and s.w.a.t. and everybody just pulling up, pulling up, pulling up. >> reporter: neighbors shot in cleveland, texas, a sweet 16 birthday party in alabama, a louisville bank. [ siren ] and an elementary school in nashville. >> how are our children still dying and why are we failing them? >> reporter: the gun violence archive counts more mass

shootings so far this year than days, 199. that includes any shooting with at least four victims not including a shooter. >> i've been studying this for 40 years and i've never seen a year like this. >> reporter: james fox oversees a database at northwestern university that keeps track of deadly mass shootings. why are we seeing so many mass killings this year? >> well, we have several factors. we have many more guns in the hands of americans, a large increase in gun sales since covid, and because of covid, many americans are suffering economically, emotionally, and this country is divided. people are angry. and they're taking it out on innocent strangers. >> reporter: texas governor greg abbott is a strong supporter of gun owners. he said the long-term solution is address mental health. >> there has been a dramatic increase in anger and violence taking place in america.

what texas is doing in a big-time way, we are working to address that anger and violence by going to its root cause, which is addressing mental health problems behind it. >> reporter: josh horowitz is co-director of the johns hopkins center for gun violence solutions. is it a combination of factors including access to guns but also including mental health? >> well, it's always a combination of factors. other countries have mental illness, other countries have video games, but we have unprecedented access to firearms, so you take the combination of those risk factorings and layer on all these weapons, new guns, high-capacity magazines, ar-15 assault weapons and you have the disaster we have in the united states. >> reporter: governors in colorado and washington state signed major reforms on gun ownership last month, but in washington, d.c., a chronic impasse. >> i have used the full extent

of my executive authority to do anything on my own about guns. >> yamiche alcindor covers washington. the president said it's up to congress to act. is that likely to happen? >> reporter: last year president biden helped pass substantial bipartisan gun legislation. he's repeatedly urged congress to do more, including banning assault weapons, but it's unlikely that republican who is control the house will agree to that restrictions or gun laws. >> reporter: for communities like allen, texas, a fear nothing will change. >> nothing gets done. >> nbc's kate snow with that report. joining us now, editor of "the new republic," michael tomaski. in your latest column entitled "the gun industry wants america's malls and schools to be war zones," this is frightening. you write in part, "newer and deadlier guns are coming on the market at a steady pace.

that's right -- if you thought gun manufacturers might hit pause on all of this, think again. after all, there's a market out there and it is booming." "last year, for example, saw the introduction to the u.s. market of the sig sauer mcx spear, the civilian version of the u.s. army's new xm7 rifle. it is according to some report rs i read twice as powerful as an ar-15 and it's specifically designed to tear through kevlar or any other supposedly bulletproof material. this is the truth about where we are. the gun industry is bringing to market weapons capable of dispensing more death, in more violent fashion. republican members of congress say it's in god's hands, not theirs. and malls and schools are war zones. there's only one logical conclusion to be drawn from all

of this. this is the america gun manufacturers, the nra, and the right-wing politicians want -- a country where we know that any trip to the mall involves a certain rolling of the dice. after all, that's freedom." so, michael, in many surge in g after a mass shooting. i mean, this is backed up by a lot of different things. it's not even just that the guns are getting more dangerous and more violent, but i think a lot of people didn't know that, but they're actually making more, but there's a demand for them. joe and i even saw that out talking to folks while we were traveling after a recent school shooting. and we heard from parent who is think they need to arm, they need more guns to solve this problem. >> you're right, mika, and thank you. and the demand just grows and grows. the weapons dead deadlier and

deadlier. i'm sure if we asked these people as individuals do they want all this to happen, i'm sure they old say the right words and they're saddened by this. that's not the right thing to judge. let's judge their actions and look at what they do. you have a gun industry that keeps making more and more lethal weapons to satiate as i said this booming market. you have republican politicians who say there's nothing we can or should, nothing we can or should do about this. this is freedom. that's what greg abbott sate in 2021 when the texas legislature passed the open carry law without a license. politician said there's nothing we can or should do about this. and when something like this happens, you have some politicians say, as the congressman who represents allen, texas, over the weekend on tv, we have to leave this to god. so, what other conclusion are we supposed to draw?

>> michael, drawing from the conclusion in your kol that you mean there is certainly the financial benefit, windfall for the gun industry, gun manufacturer, and being that you say the republicans, and you are correct, in that, don't want to move forward, is it not the only way we can get a handle on this is by making hard laws that are enforced and therefore this becomes a way for enlightened democrats on this issue to really drive this as a campaign issue on why they need to take the house and the senate and the white house? i mean, is it the politics of this possible to be the only way to offset these almost every other day mass shootings if they can communicate this to the public that this is the only way we're going to stop this is to change the law and therefore the lawmakers? >> it's a great question, al. and, yes, this is -- this should

be a big theme of the 2024 campaign from biden and from all democrats. i've written before with respect to the gun issue and other issues, the democrats need to run a much more unified campaign and need to explain to people, look, if you made joe biden president, fine, but if you put republicans in charge of one or the other houses of congress, nothing is going to happen. you want results on gun, american voters, you want something done about this, you'll have to give the democrats the run of the house so to speak, and that's the only way anything's going to change here. >> so, michael, you mentioned republican congressman keith self, who represents that area of allen, texas, and he's facing criticism for comments he made pushing back against those who say that more than prayer is needed to combat gun violence. let's all take a look. >> many people argue that prayers aren't cutting it, prayers are not preventing the

next mass shooting. what is your response to that criticism? >> well, those are people that don't believe in an almighty god who has -- who is absolutely in control of our lives. i'm a christian. i believe that he is. we have people, though, with mental health that we're not taking care of. >> seems to me that god's will doesn't include a little girl blown apart by an ar-15. but, michael, it is a revealing comment from the congressman deflecting the need to actually do any legislating to make things safer, but also it suggests that the guns, even in a moment when the nra is weakened, it's still much part of the cultural identity for so many on the right. and i don't necessarily see that changing anytime soon. do you? >> no, jonathan. that's not going to change anytime soon. i mean, it would take shootings like this to happen daily for a

year and then maybe, but it's so extreme. we've gotten to such an extreme place. i was watching self's comments over the weekend and trying to figure out whether he was just saying that politically or whether he actually genuinely believes that and which of those two things is worse. and i really don't know. but i think a lot of people do actually believe that, that there is nothing we can or should do about any of this, and, you know, that's just absolutely terrifying and leaves us with few places to go. >> michael, you've studied this issue over the years a lot. if you had one policy prescription that you would want president biden to do via executive order or a law that you would push congress to pass, what would it be? >> well, it would be to ban or severely curtail the public sale

of these kinds of weapons. look, i get that there are people who get their kicks out of shooting these kinds of weapons at a range, you know, and i suppose that's their constitutional right. but keep the weapon at the range. keep the weapon and the ammo at the range. if that's all you do with it, why do you need to take it home? so maybe ban them, but at the very least, do that, severely curtail them so that these weapons aren't in circulation. but, you know, elise, there are so many of them in circulation now that, you know, i don't know how we stuff that toothpaste back in the tube. >> all right. "the new republic's" michael tomasky, thank you for your insight this morning. chicago mayor lori lightfoot made history four years ago, becoming the city's first black female and openly gay mayor, and now her time as the city's leader is coming to an end. today lightfoot will give her farewell address. her official last day in office is may 15th, and then she'll

hand over the reins to brandon johnson. before all that, she joins us now right here on "morning joe." it is great to have you back on the show. i want to talk to you a little bit about guns. chicago has its own set of issues. but first let's just talk about your time in office. you came into office with an extremely ambitious agenda, you broke out of the pack of 14, you won all 50 wards, and then in the re-election, it didn't go that well, it -- i believe you didn't even make the runoff, but if you could tell us what you think you learned from this experience and what about chicago politics that perhaps could be useful for the next mayor in serving the city. >> well, first of all, thank you for having me on today. it's always been a pleasure to be with you and the others. look, i think we live in a really difficult time. and i'm one of the first big-city mayors that ran for

re-election coming out of covid. many of my peers across the country opted not to run. and i think what we know is what you've been talking about in your program. we are a very divided country, and unfortunately we're a divided city, even though we're a deep blue democratic city. the winds we see that are blowing nationally are certainly affecting us every single day. and i don't think we can ever underestimate where we are as a country, coming out of this pandemic where the lives of literally every resident were upended. and i said this many times going into the re-election, my biggest concern wasn't the name of a particular person on the ballot, it was making sure -- the frustration and fear people are feeling in my city and i know are feeling across the country. we came up short, but i leave office with my head held high.

i think we taught the city and the uncan tri how to operational itz equity, whether it's historic investments in affordable housing, the environment, our youth, coming up with a public safety strategy that wasn't just dependent upon law enforcement first and only. we have a lot of things that we have done, seeds that we have planted, that i'm confident will continue to transform our city for years to come. >> mayor lightfoot, reverend sharpton. you spent maybe two days at our action network and every time you walked in the room you got a standing ovation. is it you get a sense that people understand that you and other mayors of color, black mayors, came up against some insurmountable odds, as you said, the pandemic, crime, dealing in new york right now with a subway individual language tee, and that these forces that you have to deal

with are really trying to target in many ways cities that have black mayors, like texas sending migrants to your city and to new york city. i think people don't have a sense that you governed at a time where you tried to align the star against mayor of big cities, particularly of color, particularly democrat, to try to put their thumb on a scale that was already down in terms of the pandemic and all that you had to deal with. >> look, there's no question, reverend al, that there are some people in chicago and across the country that don't want mayors like me to succeed. there's a reason why in 2020 part of trump's national strategy was to go after cities and mayors like me by name, by city, not just me, but also kiesha lance bottoms in atlanta, muriel bowser in washington,

d.c. and when the person with the biggest megaphone and biggest stage attacks you in a way that trump attacked us, it unleashes a set of forces that are hard to control. those dog whistles that were blown in 2020 are still resonating today, and it was fed by the uncertainty and the anger and then funded by right-wing forces that wanted to take down a big-city mayor. unfortunately, the people who were jumping on the bandwagon of a republican posing like a democrat now got a democratic socialist as their mayor. so be careful what you wish for. >> mayor lightfoot, good morning. we've been talking about texas governor greg abbott quite a bit today for a variety of different reasons. you and your fellow big-city mayors have been sharply critical of his moves to bus migrants to your cities, in this case, of course, chicago, and you've been saying there's been thousands of migrants and you don't have the ability to properly care and house them.

tell us a little bit about what you want from him but also what more do you need from the federal government while this continues. >> look, what greg abbott is doing, a man who professes to be a christian, is absolutely, utterly inhumane. putting people on buses, treating them like freight to make a political stunt, and it's no coincidence that he decided to do this at a time when biden announced his plans for re-election. his ambitions to be the republican nominee are fading and he's becoming irrelevant. the fact that he is now doing this again is a political consequence, not a public health or public safety consequence. and what he's doing is treating these migrants in the most inhumane way. we see people come into our city who are in dire medical conditions. we see people coming that are suffering from all kinds of trauma from their home countries but also the journey that they took to get to the united

states. so we can't solve this problem on a city-by-city, a state-by-state basis, and i'm incredibly sympathetic to cities along the border that are getting crushed an have been for quite some time, but we definitely need the federal government to step up. we need work permits for these people that are here in our country legally. i could put every able-bodied adult to work today if they were allowed to work in our cities legally. i know other mayors across the country feel exactly the same way. we need more resources to come to cities like chicago, like new york, like washington, d.c., denver, albuquerque, phoenix, automatic of us who are -- they're using those resources to ship migrants to our cities. we need a federal solution to this national problem. >> mayor lightfoot, just on

guns, like many other cities across the nation, chicago is facing its own challenges. what is your advice to the next mayor about how to tackle chicago's handgun crisis? >> well, again, the mayor i'm confident will continue to do the things that we know work, but the problem is the guns are pouring over the border from states that have a very different sensibility about gun and violent crime. and, look, just this weekend, we lost a young police officer who was killed by what i'm sure is illegal handguns in the hands of criminals. you asked your previous speaker what were the things that should be done at the national level, and i would say two things. obviously, commonsense gun control but most importantly, most importantly, strip the immunity that the gun manufacturers have. if individuals and families and

communities were able to sue the gun manufacturers for the h -- havoc they're wreaking and the blood money they are reaping profits from, we would see a dramatic change. we wouldn't see them making more serious, violent guns. we wouldn't see them having record sales because every single time in the history of our country, when we've seen a product that is unsafe, whether it's baby cribs, whether it's cars, whether it's -- >> right. >> -- consumer products, we take those products off the market. we should be doing the same thing with these weapons of war that have no business being in the hands of civilians. >> mayor lori lightfoot, thank you very much for coming on this morning, and thank you for your service. and we'll see you soon. >> thank you. coming up on "morning joe," president biden's approval rating slips to a new low, and he's trailing donald trump in a

hypothetical 2024 matchup. but there's one number for trump in that poll that should also be of concern for republicans. we're be digging into that. plus, when it comes to the fight over the debt ceiling, president biden and democrats have a new strategy for targeting vulnerable republicans. from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination.

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two weeks after he officially announced his re-election campaign, polling shows president joe biden's approval rating has hit a new low. in the latest "washington post"/abc news survey, 37% of registered voters say they approve of the president's job performance, his lowest figure for that poll since returning to office. but there are also some

troubling numbers for biden's most likely opponent in the 2024 general election, donald trump. in the survey, more than half of all voters say trump should face criminal charges for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election, his role in the january 6th insurrection, and for his alleged mishandling of classified documents after leaving the white house. despite this, the survey shows trump leading biden by six points in a 2020 rematch 45% to 39%. >> you know, i'm not good in math and i'm going to prove it again, but it seems to me charlie sikes, 55% of americans say donald trump should be indicted and sent to jail, i understand why democrats are worried about joe biden's numbers, they should be worried, they are low. at the same time, if 55% of americans think he should be

indicted and face criminal charges and only 39% don't, maybe that's why he's sitting at 45%. there's not a real upside to donald trump. so republicans understand this. it's why they're panicked. the democratic party right now, everywhere i go, everybody's also panicked about joe biden. so i just wonder, charlie, everybody keeps saying this looks like the race we're going to have, and i just have to ask right now, is it? >> yeah, i'm afraid so. i'm afraid we are stuck with this. both parties are right to panic. they have reasons to be very, very concerned. look, this poll may be an outlier and it may be early, but this also needs to be a wake-up call that this is really possible, that it is possible that donald trump could be elected president with all that means and all of the implications of all of that. it also exposes i think, joe, and mika, i think it exposes

those in the republican party so reluctant to call out donald trump's unfitness, because they've been basing a lot of their critique on the fact he's unelectable. that whole argument, you know, that donald trump can't win, that's kind of been being blown up at the moment. so at some point, if we're going to address the reality of the situation, republicans are going to have to talk about why donald trump should not be the nominee and should never be put back into the oval office, and i think the democrats need to wake up that simply the craziness and the illegality and the various indictments of donald trump are not necessarily automatically going to save us in 2024. no one is coming to save us. this is going to be up to us. the people have been waiting for something to come along, whether it's an indictment that will save us from all of this, and it's up to us at this point. >> it really is. charlie in your latest article

in "the atlantic" "america's lowest standard," you crystallize the situation. you write "the twice-impeached defeated former president has been indicted on multiple felony charges and may face more. he is a chronic liar and a fraudster. he also played a role in fomenting the january 6th insurrection. trump has called for the suspension of the constitution and dined with a white supremacist, and he traffics in racist invek tich and conspiracy theories." you continue, "hamilton thought he had fireproofed the presidency from mount jnt ebanks and charlatans because we would seek out only the best and brightest among us. instead, we have apparently saved our lowest standards for the presidency. after the release of the ""access hollywood"" tape, the gop decided that character did not, after all, matter. seven years later, neither the

indictments or paying for hush money to a porn star nor the accusations of assault and rape are disqualifying for republican voters. in the 2024 contest for the presidency, they hardly even register." if you look at that deposition tape for the carroll case, he's asked about what he said on the ""access hollywood"" tape, i mean -- >> let's take a listen to it. play it far second. and listen to the part he says maybe it's not a bad thing. >> yeah. could be a good thing. >> that people like trump are able to sexual assault women. listen. >> and you say again, this has become famous, in this video, i just started kissing her, it's like a magnet, just kiss, i don't even wait, and when you're a star, they let you do it. you can do anything, grab them by the [ bleep ]. you can do anything. that's what you said, correct? >> historically, that's true with stars. >> true with stars they can grab women by the [ bleep ]?

>> if you look over the last million years i guess that's been largely true, not always, but largely true. unfortunately or fortunately. >> you consider yourself to be a star. >> i think you could say that, yea. >> so he takes what he said with ""access hollywood"" and, elise, he says, well, maybe it's a good thing. he says unfortunately or fortunately, maybe it's a good thing that he can sexually assault women because he's a, quote, star. he said that, evangelicals, he said that, republican voters. he said in 2023, maybe it's a good thing that he, donald trump, can sexually assault women even when they're not expecting it or want it. >> i just started laughing out

of pure disgust. i looked over at the rev and was just, like, what is he, a caveman, saying men have done this for a million years so why not just keep going forward with it? i mean, that showed such an absolute lack of e remorse and no growth whatsoever, which i think is par for the course with donald trump and what we need to expect and brace ourselves for over this campaign cycle. >> this is why it is, you know -- it is very, very complicated moving forward, covering this nominee, who is now indicted, and is seen on a deposition -- i mean, along with all the things that charlie listed in his piece, and that doesn't cover everything, but this is a man that talks about in his deposition his type and how carroll was not his type and therefore wouldn't rape her. >> he confused her for his wife.

>> in the pictures and in a flash of anger tells the attorney who is deposing him, you're not my type either. you're a disgrace. i mean, it's just -- this is your guy. >> this is the evangelical's choice. this is your guy. >> this is the republican party's choice. by the way, people are going to look back and, you know, they look back on bull connor and, you know, how did that happen? they'll look back on texas and the guns and the gunfire. they'll look back on donald trump. they'll look back on the heinousness and the racism and the white supremacy and everything else, and they're going to look back at the voters and say why did these people allow bull connor to continue to be police chief in birmingham? why did they allow donald trump, when he talked about, bragged about in 2016 -- or the tape came out in 2016 and again in 2023 that maybe he had the right to sexually assault and abuse women. that said, rev, 55% of americans

think that donald trump should be indicted. we're all looking at joe biden's low numbers and we should. democrats should. they should be freaked out. but republicans, they've got a candidate that's got 55% of americans thinking that he should be indicted, arrested, and sent to jail because of january 6th, because he tried to rig the election, and because the classified documents that he refused to return to the united states government. that ain't -- nobody's sitting in the republican par tirr at the table holding four aces there either. >> no. what is alarming, if not frightening, is that 55% of americans feel that he should be indicted and prosecuted, yet there's no movement the republican party to really deal with stopping him. and you can't come up with a

candidate in the republican primaries, announced or expected to announce, that will take him off. so we're going from what you quoted, hamilton saying the best and the brightest will run for president, to the slickest and the sickest, because this guy is sick to say that we go back a million years and this is how it was done. i mean, this is real madness for someone to openly on a deposition -- let's remember now, he's under oath, knowing he's being taped. for him to say this and to even entertain that this man should be the leader of the western world and his own party won't stand up to him -- >> rev, rev, he said this in a deposition where a woman has accused him of sexually assaulting her without her permission, and he's saying he has a right to do that as a

star, that men have been able to do that for a million years if they were, quote, stars, so maybe he has the right to do it today. >> which is actually confessing by his own words -- >> yes. >> -- that, yeah, this is what i do and this is the way it's been done for a million years. and we're going to let this man, using elise's analogy, this caveman, back in the oval office? i mean, this caveman mentality, not him a caveman himself. this is madness. and if you allow this madness to go, you will allow military-tile weapons to go, you will allow all that goes with it because you're dealing with the mentality that we operate in some kind of prehistoric times rather than some civilized gatherings of nations that are governed by laws and principles. >> to rev's point, it's all

connected, and this is someone who is doubling down on the "access hollywood" tape, which is eight-odd years later. also of course he gets a town hall this week on primetime television. we should mention, joe and mika, also that donald trump, deeply flawed, this is why so many republicans want to break from him, are so panicked because he leads the polls within the gop primary. they look at the primary numbers and see a very vulnerable opponent. they think if we could put anyone else up against him, we have a chance. it is early and one poll, an outlier, but one democrat yesterday, a senior democrat texted me and said they hope this poll, they hope it's a wake-up call for the white house, there's a fear if there's a rematch, this white house is being a little overconfident, that this is the race they want, they want biden versus trump again, they beat him in 2020. we know the arguments that the swing voters and independent verts broke against trump in

2020 and probably would in 2024. it's advantage biden it would seem, but inherently it is sort of a jump ball. it's a 50/50 nation, more or less. the electoral college gives the republicans some advantages. and i think there is a sense that particularly, if we face as a nation, economic headwinds, that's trouble for biden. i think there's a sense here that the white house needs to change its thinking a little bit about this potential rematch. coming up, we'll go live to allen, texas, where a gunman killed eight people, injuring seven more in a mass shooting at an outlet mall. the latest on what police are saying about a possible motive next on "morning joe." but shing. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache,

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with texas doctors who are navigating the state's abortion ban are highlighted in a new piece in "the new yorker" entitled "in the post-roeer ra, letting patients get sicker of that design." contributing writer at "the new yorker" joins us now. in the piece you write in part, "the texas doctors i spoke to, like their counterparts in other hospitals across conservative states, described ob/gyn unit where is today workers must shoulder responsibilities that have little to do with saving the lives of mothers, let alone doing no harm. instead, as pregnant women get sicker by design doctors have been weighing the risk of offering treatment that they feel is right for a patient against the risk of legal repercussions that might cost

them their livelihoods or even land them in prison. they've been soliciting the opinions of hospital lawyers and ethicists. they've been considering institutional liability and struggling to reinterpret concepts such as due diligence." in short, in a context of fear and bureaucratic anxiety, they've been scrambling, trying to reconcile abortion-law language, with the daily urgencies of women they're encountering on gurneys in emergency room cubicles. just how endangered does a sick patient have to be before her doctor can intervene? and how much time can a doctor and her colleagues take in deciding before it's too late for a patient?" let's start right there, stefania, because when a woman is enduring sepsis, often the condition can come on really

fast. there isn't time for a hospital board and lawyers to meet, and women are now being caught in the middle of this and enduring intense pain, trauma, agony, and often being sterilized because of the position they're left in, something that could have been prevented. am i wrong? >> no, absolutely not. and thank you for having me. i mean, as the head of acog in texas mentioned to me, this is a question of minutes, right. you're lucky if you have even hours, days. so the decision to intervene, the decision to treat a woman must come fast. and i think it's really help to feel put this into context, because we've been warned that the overturning of roe would have tremendous implications for women around the country, even before the ruling was announced. you might remember that ""the lancet,"" the medical journal,

issued an editorial saying women will die, right? and ever since, what we've seen is that in the country that is already one of the richest nations with the highest rates of maternal death, the impact is absolutely clear, right. and we have doctors reluctant to talk about what they were seeing in texas and elsewhere coming out and saying this is unquestionable, and it's resulting in more harm to patients that we're treating. >> this story is just got-awful. -- god-awful. there's no real way to put it otherwise. aside from walls that actually empower doctors to treat patients as they see medically reasonable in their opinion, i mean, i guess there's -- you know, this is just a legal issue and we can raise hell all we want about it, but at the end of

the day, the law is the law. so women are just going to be consigned to suffer. >> right. and what the center for reproductive rights case you mentioned is asking for is more clarity, right. i mean, texas, like many other states where abortion is now illegal, has several abortion bans, right. it has sb-8, which went into effect in 2021. it has a trigger law and a pre-roe ban in effect. and each of those bans has its own exceptions. you can just imagine how confusing it is for doctors who are treating patients with life-threatening conditions to figure out which law am i supposed to abide by and what exception am i supposed to take into account here, right? i mean, it's just absolutely confusing to them. >> all right. contributing writer at "the new yorker," stephania taladrid, thank you so much, for this

incredible piece you wrote. >> just incredible. mika, this is what we were talking about over easter. >> yeah. >> everybody came around. >> it's scary to get pregnant fou for women. >> people who were pro-life their entire lives were talking about stories like this, were talking about how women are no longer safe. >> no. >> getting pregnant. and i actually have -- know somebody that his wife and he moved out of a red state to a blue state, and they're actually thinking about having a child and said that they're going to have to stay in the blue state. >> yeah. >> to have to stay in the blue state unless there are complications. if there are complications, they don't want to be in the position these women are in. >> people are picking colleges.

>> republicans are. this is not some democratic thing. at easter we heard from republicans who all had a different story on how insane these laws are. >> it's interesting listening to that conversation. in the '90s, remember that book "the big sort" talked act how we were sorting ourselves out to politics. we are in the midst of a cold civil war where people are moving with their feet to states where they're safe. all of these policies are going to have dramatic implications for education and the economy. looking back on this a couple of decades have now, to see all the

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we've seen an increased number of shootings in states with easy gun laws as well as states with very strict gun laws. i think the state in which the largest number of victims have occurred this year is in california, where they have very tough gun laws where 11 people

died. one thing we can observe easily is that there has been a dramatic increase in anger and violence that's taking place in america. >> that was texas governor greg abbott talking about the deadly shooting at an outlet mall. gavin newsom responded, pointing out that the gun death rate in texas is 73% higher than in california. coming up, we'll go live to allen, texas, for the latest in the investigation. also ahead, a live report from the white house says the biden administration prepares a new strategy in the fight over the debt ceiling. and we'll talk to the first black woman elected chair of the

democratic party in south carolina. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. we begin this hour in texas, where eight people were killed, several others injured saturday when a gunman opened fire at an outlet mall in allen, a suburb of dallas. some of the footage is disturbing. dash cam video, which police confirm is authentic, shows the moment the alleged gunman got out of his car and began firing. joining us now, priscilla thompson, live in allen, texas, with more. >> reporter: mika, good morning. police have identified that shooter as a 33-year-old male. we do know from two senior law enforcement officials that they are investigating this as a

potentially racially motivated crime that was fuelled by violent extremism. you played that video of the dash cam where you see the suspect get out of the car and immediately start firing in this sprawling outlet mall, more than 120 stores here, hundreds if not thousands of people here shopping on a saturday. the suspect was armed with a rifle and also a handgun. they also found additional weapons and ammunition in his vehicle. we know that he was wearing a tactical vest and he also had a patch on his chest that was a right wing acronym. officials have looked at the suspect's social media accounts and found hundreds of posts related to white supremacy neo nazi rhetoric. they are evaluating all of that. they say he interacted with that content, although they are not going so far as to issue a

definitive motive here. we know they conducted a search, according to witnesses, at the family home of the shooter. we went there and spoke to neighbors about what they knew of this young man, many saying they did not know anything about him. he was quiet, he sort of kept to himself, but many in shock he was living just feet from them with the capability to commit this kind of violence. i spoke to one neighbor who got very emotional when she talked about the state we're in in america now where this seems to keep happening. >> he could have done that here. i mean, we don't know. why did he choose the mall in allen? it makes no sense at all to any of us. i'm just really tired of the gun

violence. we just go through this over and over and nothing gets done. >> reporter: do you think something will change this time? >> not in texas. governor abbott and the republicans will not do anything. i know they won't. >> reporter: and you heard that sound from governor abbott over the weekend refocusing this conversation on mental health resources. we heard from him this morning where he said there are still questions about why and how this happened and once they get that information, it will inform the steps and measures that the state of texas will make moving forward. senator roland gutierrez who represents uvalde and several family members of those victims plan to be at the state capitol calling on action for gun reform as we look ahead to the anniversary of that horrific shooting as well here. mika. >> priscilla thompson, live in

allen, texas, thank you so much for that report. there have been 201 mass shootings in the u.s. this year. we're not even halfway through the year, according to the gun violence archive, which defines a mass shooting as an incident in which four or more people are injured or killed. in texas alone, there have been 17 this year. a reporter from the austin american statesman highlighted some of the most high profile shootings in the state. the shooting in allen, texas, brings the number of victims killed in mass shootings in the state to at least 100 during governor greg abbott's two-year term since 2015. that number does not include the shooting in cleveland, texas, last week, which saw five people killed. as the "new york times" reports, texas has some of the country's most permissive gun laws, priding itself on being a state

with more than 1 million gun owners despite its recent history of mass shootings. many authorities in texas say they have seen an increase in spur-of-the-moment gunfire since 2021 when the state began to allow most adults to carry a handgun without a license. it is worth recalling this tweet from governor abbott back in 2015 when he was, quote, embarrassed that texas was second in the nation for new gun purchases, like we should be number one in buying guns, we as in the state of texas. really? i'm not sure the people of texas who are enduring these mass shootings might feel this way. it seems like in texas, the hate and the violence seems to be headed in a worse direction. the more people buy guns, the more powerful guns they make. are we going to have guns more

powerful than ar-15's in texas so they can defend themselves against so-called predators? exactly how are the police supposed to handle this influx of guns if they so badly want to be number one? even from the governor's own tweets you see these tinges of hate. victims of gun violence shot by someone who, yes, had immigration issues and also got an ar-15. >> when you look at the fact that these were victims of a mass shooting, because they asked someone next door not to shoot because it kept the infant child up, and he kills someone in the house, and the governor's response in a measure of saying, well, i'm sympathetic, but you're illegal immigrants, it

shows the kind of hate that he couldn't even bring himself to give sympathy to the victims of a mass shooting without trying to get into his immigration bias in terms of who they were. it is also telling this governor is saying, well, we're dealing with mental health. our position in texas is we're going to invest in mental health. well, that's fine, but what happens in the interim of you dealing with mental health? and what about the people with mental health problems that can buy ar-15s right now without any problems. all they have to do is walk in a place and answer that they are a u.s. citizen and they are old enough, and they get a gun. i mean, he's not even addressing the issue, which is why you saw the emotion of that woman that was a neighbor to this last person, because they've got to feel like their whole state has not only let them down, they have to be in fear. and you have a governor that's

kicking the can down the road talking about what we'll do by and by when the morning comes with mental health while escalating sales of these military-style weapons. >> these weapons are so lethal and plentiful and available that we've seen instances where police officers are afraid to challenge the gunman because they know they're outgunned. we should give credit to the officer who was at the mall for an unrelated reason on saturday and shot and killed the suspected shooter. it's almost a daily basis we have a mass shooting like this. there does seem to be a sense of frustration. the nation is weary and angry and sad. do we think, though, that this is a moment where we know the republicans are out of step with public polling on the shooting? is this going to be an issue that will really shape the contours of next year's

election. is this going to be what pushes people to vote next year? >> those are two extreme issues. the extremists in the republican party dominate this issue. it's out of step with most of the country. you look on the far left on things like abolishing i.c.e., not very popular. you can see how the republican party has become hijacked by policies that are not very popular even among their own party. in parkland, those young students galvanized a movement. you saw a little bit of movement reflected in the midterms after this. but unless it's a sustained drum beat, sustained outrage, how is anything going to move? >> this country is so far behind

in dealing with this problem. also in texas, at least eight people were killed and nine others injured by a driver who plowed into a crowd of migrants in the border city of brownsville. gabe gutierrez has the latest. >> reporter: this surveillance video shows the seconds right before an suv plowed into a crowd waiting at a bus stop sunday outside a migrant shelter in brownsville, texas. eight people were killed, some migrants from venezuela. at least nine others were injured. this morning investigators are still trying to determine a motive. >> one, it could be intoxication. two, it could be accidental. three, it could be intentional. >> reporter: witnesses say the driver yelled anti-immigrant language, but police say it's still under investigation. law enforcement tells nbc news the driver is a hispanic male

who is not cooperating with police. >> just a terrible situation to witness. >> reporter: the migrant deaths come just days after homeland security secretary mayorkas visited brownsville ahead of the lifting of the covid border restriction known as title 42, expected to bring another migrant influx to the southern border, as many as 10,000 people a day. >> the situation at the border is very serious. >> reporter: last week we visited juarez, mexico, where thousands of migrants have already gathered. what's been the hardest part? >> the hardest part is never having work, food or water, this man from guatemala told us, saying he planned to cross the border with his 2-year-old son. the biden administration is preparing for the end of title 42 by sending 1500 active duty troops to the border and setting

up asylum processing centers. >> there has to be at least a pathway to citizenship. in washington, 43 republican senators, including the entire leadership of the conference, signed a letter to president biden saturday, saying they would be backing the house republicans' plan that calls for substantive spending cuts in any debt limit deal. only six republican senators including mitt romney and susan collins did not sign the letter. democrats in the senate appeared to be well short of the 60 votes needed to pass any clean debt ceiling bill. when asked about house speaker kevin mccarthy's tactics over the debt ceiling, president biden had this to say. >> when you say this is not your father's republican party, is

kevin mccarthy an honest broker for you to negotiate with? >> i think he's an honest man. i think he's in a position that he had to make a deal that was -- you know, 15 votes where he just about sold away everything to the far, far right. there's the republican party and there's the maga republicans. the maga republicans really have put him in a position where in order to stay speaker, he's agreed to things that maybe he believes, but are just extreme. >> joining us now, white house correspondent mike memoli with new reporting this morning on how president biden is preparing to take the debt ceiling battle to vulnerable republican lawmakers. >> reporter: all eyes, of course, on the white house tomorrow afternoon as president biden is set to host the so-called big four congressional

leaders to try to find a way forward on this debt ceiling crisis. the question is, what is the president's negotiating strategy? is he going to be able the get republicans, for instance, to support a short-term debt ceiling increase, kick this fight to the fall when you can have it in parallel with the annual spending bills. the political strategy at the white house is coming into focus. the president is going to be traveling to suburban new york, talking to the american people in a swing congressional district that's now represented by a republican, mike lawlor. you heard the president there talking about the pressure speaker mccarthy faces from the hard right flank in his party. the white house is really trying to create some counter pressure to the more moderate members of the caucus to avert the debt ceiling crisis.

these so-called moderates have been aligning themselves with the maga wing of their party and we're going to let their constituents know that. lawlor spoke with our capitol hill correspondent and said, listen, i won my election last fall. he said, i won this race because my constituents want me to rein in spending. lawlor didn't rule out potentially supporting some of these compromise efforts, a discharge petition to try to put a clean increase on the floor. but he said it's a miscalculation on the part of the white house maybe if they think i'm going to be there. you look at 18 republican members of the house who represent districts that president biden carried in 2020. we know how narrow the republican majority is. if you can put enough pressure on some of those lawmakers, that might find a way forward here for the white house in this debt ceiling strategy. >> a number of those

representatives who won in biden districts have said they haven't heard from the white house much this year at all, which is surprising to some. what is the white house previewing to you in terms of contingency strategies? say tomorrow doesn't go well and doesn't lead to a breakthrough. there are very few days where the house and senate are both in session this month. the president is scheduled to be overseas for a week or more coming up. what's the plan b here? could that trip get cancelled or cut short? are they talking about other negotiations? >> reporter: i asked the white house last week about the possibility of the president's travel. they say he's president wherever he goes and he can monitor the negotiations from afar. we've seen presidents have to

postpone foreign travel before as we head into a crisis. the real fascinating question at this point is over a potential unilateral option the president can take, invoking the 14th amendment. stephanie ruhle asked the president about that and he said, i'm not there yesterday. treasury secretary yellen said she doesn't want to entertain these kind of emergency options. the deputy treasury secretary referred to a possible constitutional crisis that would trigger, because there is a question about the legal authority of the president to do this unilaterally. that really does pose the question of, if you can't negotiate this with republicans and they're not confident of their legal authority to do this unilaterally, we are looking at a potential default. that really complicates the economic argument the president can make. the white house is confident that voters will ultimately blame republicans for their

incalcitrant here. that's a real question about how the white house navigates this ultimately. the recent republican obsession with schooling is the battlefield the gop plans to stake their political future on. think about it. there's guns, there's abortion, but no, they want to go after these issues. it's the focus of jonathan chat's latest piece entitled "indoctrination nation." you write in your piece that it's hardly novel for republicans to emphasize the need to improve schools.

ronald reagan administration published a report, a nation at risk, that inaugurated the modern education reform debate. you continue, what sets the current movement apart from previous efforts is not merely its greater intensity, but its focus. academic achievement levels are incidental to republicans' concern. their main preoccupation is not the ways in which chinese and swedish kids may be outpacing their american counterparts. they are instead accusing schools of carrying out an insidious indoctrination campaign that they believe poses an existential threat to their party's future and their way of life. my first question is, do they really believe this? do they really believe that don't say gay is so important that it's existential to the future, or banning certain books? really? >> yeah. i think they do. that's really the number one point i want to make in this

piece is that i think a lot of people who aren't hard core conservative republicans see this as a cynical messaging exercise and just an attempt to rile people up. but i really think conservative republicans believe this. they're freaked out about the idealogical tenor of schools. they think schools are turning the kids liberal and they've got to change it. so they're acting on these beliefs. we need to stop dismissing this as just messaging and trying to rile the voters and really think about it as a serious attempt to change american education. >> on the face of what you're saying, i'm going to believe they believe it, but i need to understand. for example, some of the laws passed in florida -- i'll go to some of the ones that have kind of sparked a lot of outrage among members of all parties worried about school shootings. they say don't say gay, for

example. is it really happening? >> it's all the way up to third grade. >> are kindergarten teachers walking into class and saying, here's my friend johnny and he's gay and let me tell you what that means. like, what are you talking about? is this really happening? are these teachers really doing this? >> i try to walk through it and show there is an element of truth. there's a germ of truth in these fears. you can find a lot of liberal and progressive teachers who from time to time are trying to use the classroom to advance some left of center thoughts. what i'm trying to show is that, number one, the republicans have exaggerated in their own minds the scale at which this is happening and, number two, their response is really clumsy and disproportionate and in some ways, especially at the college level, is doing the opposite of

what they're accusing the left of doing, which is imposing their own agenda on the classroom instead of having some reasonable middle ground. >> there's definitely truth to all of it in some way. in some it's just a germ of truth and in other ways it might be very true. but this germ of truth they capitalize on and create into an entire crisis when we're dealing with women's health care literally getting decimated before our eyes and children getting shot up in classrooms. >> i think i understand your point, because i know when i was younger and they took prayer out of schools, there were people that really believed prayer should be in the school. but they were manipulated by people who wanted to use that for political reasons. don't you have to consider as you look at this that there are

people that take these real believers and now have expanded it going after intersectionalism like with kimberly crenshaw's teaching going after black history, going after women's history. so where you may have had a germ or a seed of real believers, there is a whole political movement now that is using this for very misogynist, homophobic and racist reasons for a political outcome. >> absolutely. a big part of what i'm trying to show in this piece is they've unleashed the most right-wing parents to object to material in the school library or the classroom and to harass teachers and librarians into taking completely innocuous material out of the classroom on the basis of these hyperventilated

claims. at its core, some reasonable elements and a whole lot of hysteria has just been unleashed across the country into this pretty unreasonable and dangerous movement. coming up, the chair of the south carolina democratic party crystal spain is our guest. we'll ask her about her historic election as well as her plans for the state party heading into 2024. from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need

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come here and say a word. >> thank y'all so much. i'm a mess, i apologize. my heart is so full and i'm so

overwhelmed that you all would choose me. i want you to know that because i chose y'all. the work i do for this party is because i love y'all. i love the people who make up the party. i'm going to continue to do this work. thank you to all the delegates who voted for me and for the ones who did not, thank you for participating in the process. this is our party. it's about democracy. it's about a fair and equitable process. thank y'all so much. >> that's the new head of the south carolina democratic party christale spain speaking about being elected by the state's democrats to lead her party form. she is the former executive director of the state's democratic party and is the first black woman elected its chair. this comes at a pivotal moment for democrats in south carolina, who will be voting first in the 2024 democratic presidential primary election.

christale spain joins us now. it's great to have you on the show. it must nice to watch that moment back over again. tell us a little bit about why you were so emotional in it. >> thank you so much, joe and mika, for having me. i was so emotional, because when i came to this party over a decade ago, i didn't know there was a party. i was an unemployed single mother and i came to volunteer. from there, i worked my way up to be the executive director. i've had the opportunity to lead presidential campaigns across the state. i just did a successful stint at the dccc. i didn't have an expectation of a job, much less a career. it kind of hit me all at once when the delegates started standing for me. >> that's an incredible story. wow. as you move forward, the big goal, obviously, is preparing the south carolina democrats for the 2024 election, the

presidential primary. what are the challenges facing the party in south carolina right now, especially after the midterms? >> we had a pretty rough midterm, but with challenges come opportunity. i stepped up to lead this party because i know what it's going to take for us to win. one of those is year round engagement. we've got to celebrate the accomplishments democrats have made across the country. we know it takes resources. we're asking folks to go to scdp.org and invest in the future of south carolina. >> this is reverend sharpton. congratulations again. i know you won because you really have done a lot of the work. people that i work with in south carolina love you. you may have the possible challenge that the nominee of

the republican party, you may have a south carolinian on the ticket. nikki haley could be on the ticket. senator tim scott could be on the ticket. how do you combat that in south carolina if you are facing the possibility of a republican nominee, whether it be donald trump or desantis, picking someone from south carolina who may run against them on the primary and you've got to organize against that person. >> we do that by telling the truth about who they are. nikki haley has already committed herself to not only gutting social security and medicare but raising the retirement age. south carolina is a retirement state. that would be devastating for voters in this state. we know who tim scott is already.

he's the architect of the 2017 tax scam. south carolinians are fighting every day to fight abortion bans right here in south carolina. republicans want to ban abortion before a woman even knows she's pregnant. >> christale, congratulations on your victory. you really have a mandate. you won by a pretty overwhelming margin. what advise do you have for national democrats as they try to bring back in rural voters, like those voters you know in south carolina? >> we've got to go to the voters. we've got to meet voters where they are, most times at their house, in their community. we can't be afraid to go into these communities. we've got to take the time to canvass rule south carolina and

we've got to be prepared to sit down and talk about local issues and speak to the successes and accomplishments democrats have already made. >> what are you hearing from democrats in south carolina, especially the people who probably saved the nation, african-american women in south carolina? are they worried about joe biden's age? >> you know, we know with age comes experience. my age came up in this race and i was surprised, but experience matters. joe biden has accomplished many things. he's already passed transformational legislation that helps south carolina. they're investing heavily in hbcu's. we feel the benefit of that investment. they're're invested in rebuildi delap dated black communities.

>> christale spain, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. congratulations. still ahead, a look at the growing protests over a chokehold death on a new york city subway train. and the timeline for possible charges in the case. as we go to break, the u.s. ambassador to china nicholas burns met today with china's leading diplomats to discuss what he called challenges in the u.s./china relationship and the necessity of stabilizing ties and expanding high level communication. it comes amid simmering tensions between beijing and washington over taiwan, trade and that chinese spy balloon. that chinese spy balloon. ♪ the all-new chevy colorado is made for more.

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♪♪ choosing miracle-ear was a great decision. like when i decided to host family movie nights. miracle-ear made it easy. i just booked an appointment and a certified hearing care professional evaluated my hearing loss and helped me find the right device calibrated to my unique hearing needs. now i enjoy every moment. the quiet ones and the loud ones. make a sound decision. call 1-800 miracle now, and book your free hearing evaluation. live look at new york city, a beautiful day in the big apple. welcome back to "morning joe." it's 41 past the hour. calls are growing louder for criminal charges against a

former marine who placed a homeless man in a deadly chokehold on a new york city subway train. protesters clashed with police over the weekend, shutting down some subway lines. emily aket that has the latest. >> reporter: this morning growing outrage surrounding the chokehold death of 30-year-old jordan neely. protesters calling for criminal charges, some jumping onto subway tracks in protest, leading to clashes with police. authorities say 13 people were arrested so far. it comes as we're learning more about what happened on that train ride when neely was placed in a headlock by another passenger for several minuted. when mr. neely began

threatening, daniel acted. daniel never intended to harm mr. neely. the calls for his arrest are intensifying. >> we will try our hardest to make sure he's held accountable. a source saying that before help arrived, nypd dispatchers received five 911 calls, including several people reporting a man making threats on board. neely, who place say was arrested more than 40 times was homeless and known to be struggling with mental illness since his mother's murder in 2007. still, his family's attorney saying he was a talented street performer who loved to dance and make other people happy. >> he had demons. we know people on the brink of going through something major. that's where he was, but he had a life he was living. >> reverend al, you spoke with

both of the attorneys for the neely family this weekend on "politics nation." what did they tell you? >> they said the victim here had mental health issues, but that it was certainly not something that should have sentenced him to death. i think many of us have taken that position in the civil rights community that you cannot let this go unaccounted for without really opening the door to legitimizing. this young man didn't assault anyone, was disruptive, which happens every day on subways. and you're going to put him in a chokehold and hold him for minutes at a time while two other people hold him down and kill him? this person should face a grand jury and the two people with

him. the attorneys say the family is going so pursue this. they're planning a funeral. all of the community is riled up about it. i think the protests are saying this could be anybody, you can't take the law into your own hands and kill someone when there's no life extenuating circumstance. last month we introduced viewers to frankie carillo, a democratic candidate for congress in california's 27th congressional district. he is running, like our next guest, to unseat republican mike garcia in a tossup district that is key to democrats' hopes of retaking the house next year. joining us is george whitesides. he was the nasa chief of staff under president obama and previously served as the ceo of

virgin galactic. it's really good to have you on the show. been looking into your campaign announcement. you brought up it really is time to not have timid leadership. who and what are you talking about? >> well, look, i'll tell you i'm an optimist, but i'll start with a profoundly depressing story. when my daughter was 5 years old, she went off to kindergarten and came back and told me in her first week that she had done an active shooter drill. this is not the society we want to be building. i want to build an inspiring future for our kids, with great jobs, great schools and all that stuff. we have a republican congress that's not going to be working on any of these issues and we've got to make a change in california's 27th district. >> i'm a parent of kids that did

school shooter drills. that was as eye opening as it gets as you watch your kids get traumatized by them and live in fear every day that they go to school. i'm curious, your republican opponent if you win the primary, why do you think you need to replace him? >> he's really out of touch with the voters in our district now. as you probably know, mike garcia is someone who cosponsored the national abortion ban bill. he voted to decertify the 2020 presidential election. he's taken money from marjorie taylor greene. he voted against background checks last year. everybody supports background checks. he voted for this budget last week that would potentially cut up to 22% of nasa and the va and all these green energy incentives that are going to be so beneficial to our district. so he's become part of the

problem. we've got to make a change. >> good morning. talk to us about your district there, the 27th district of california. what are the big concerns you have for the local community? >> we've got a beautiful district. it runs from santa clarita on the south up over the mountains to lancaster, where i lived for 12 years now. we're in the middle of the district. it's a district that there are a lot of commuters in the district. a lot of people drive from their homes down into los angeles for their employment. they're on the roads for three, four, five hours a day. you know, to have mike garcia, who voted against the infrastructure bill, which could dramatically help those kinds of things is crazy, i think. it's a wonderful community. it's the stuff that everybody

thinks. we want to have strong education, we want good local jobs and safe communities where we don't have to worry about getting shot. we had a school shooting in our district in 2019 where tragically two young people lost their lives. this is a very real issue for our community. >> democratic candidate for congress in california's 27th congressional district, george whitesides, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thanks for the time. s for me staaaaacccceeeyyy! i'm the sizzle in this promposal. and tonight, sparks are gonna fly. kyle? and while romeo over here is trying to look cool,

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beautiful shot of seattle, the skyline there. welcome back to "morning joe." it's time for a look at the morning papers. we begin in iowa where the gazette leads with lawmakers passing a bill that rolls back child labor laws. the measure allows companies to employ 16 and 17-year-olds to work jobs currently banned for minors such as construction and manufacturing. those companies have to file for an exemption that shows the job is educational and does not interfere with the child's health, well-being or schooling. parents must also grant permission. the tallahassee democrat has a front page feature on the struggle florida faced during the legislative session. republicans had a majority in both chambers allowing them to pass bills that expanded access to guns and restricted access to abortions. now democrats are hoping those controversial measures will incentivize more people to vote

next year. a recent poll found that nearly 77% are against florida's new law allowing people to carry guns without a permit. 75% also opposed the state's six-week abortion ban. in illinois the beacon news reports newly constructed homes in illinois will soon be required to require an electric vehicle charging station. the statehouse and nat passed the legislation last week. it requires new, single family or multifamily homes to offer at least one ev-capable parking spot. a large residential building must have all its parking spaces equipped with chargers. the star gazette has a front page feature on new york now becoming the first state to ban natural gas hookups. starting in 2026 gas-fired heaters and appliances will no longer be installed in new homes and businesses. the new law does not affect exists gas hookups or

appliances. the move is part of a larger effort to curb the use of fossil fuels. before we go today, tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc, joe tackles what is going on in texas. the mass shooting over the weekend outside dallas brought the number of victims killed in mass shootings in the state to at least 100 during governor greg abbott's two terms since 2015. joe dives into the latest developments in the lone star state. plus, his conversation with senator john fetterman. the pennsylvania democrat grew emotional talking about his path back to the senate after being treated for clinical depression. it is a powerful interview. you won't want to miss that. a special "joe scarborough presents" is tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the

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♪ ♪ hello. thank you for being with us on this monday. it is 10:00 eastern.