on him as my colleague scott wong and i were in the halls, asking people what they think about scott. and rubio even said he loves tim scott but isn't sure if thooes -- he's ready to endorse at this point in the presidential cycle. love may not be all you need in washington to get the endorsements and other things in political calculus that you want on the campaign trail. >> in this instance, right, love is not all you need. ali vitali. thank you as always. good to talk to you. i'm yasmin vossoughian, katy tur picks up our coverage right now. ♪♪ good to be with you. i'm katy tur. a supermarket, a church, a school, another school, a bank, a parade, a synagogue, a

neighbor's house, a walmart, and now an outlet mall, this time in allen, texas, this time, eight people are dead. this time, a witness tells us exactly what it looks like when the gunfire from an ar-15 hits the human body. because this time he saw it for himself. might want to warn you, his experience is graphic. . >> i went to the first person i found crouching in the bushes. looked like she was praying, and i felt for a pulse. there was no pulse. so i pulled her head up to look at her face and there wasn't a face. just brain matter. so i went to the next guy, he was already staring straight ahead, eyes were fixed and dilated. no pulse. went to the third guy, he was breathing put my hand on his chest, he chest wentz up and down, he moaned so i started -- i felt for a pulse, didn't feel a pulse, but he was breathing.

but he was bleeding profusely, so i pushed on the guy's chest to start cpr and the blood came out of his mouth and he looked at me and died. there was nothing i could do. these people were shot catastrophically with high capacity round ammunition. i looked down. the only photo i took was of the bullet, a live round next to a dead body. i hope no one ever has to see a live round from a high capacity rifle next to a dead body in a mall in this weren't again. >> that's former officer steven spanhaur, his son who was working at the mall called him when he heard shots. he got there so quickly, he beat most first responders. the gunman was killed by an officer who was there for a prior call. the suspect might have been a neo-nazi. police say they are investigating the murders as racially or ethnically motivated, violent extremism.

joining me now priscilla thompson in allen, texas for us. and justice and intelligence correspondent, ken dilanian. it must be awful there. what else are you learning? >> reporter: it is awful and sadly at this hour, we are learning more about the youngest victims of the shooting. the wiley school district superintendent announcing that a 2nd grader, sophia mendoza is among those deceased. a 4th grader daniela mendoza, also deceased and their mother, ilda remains in critical condition. we know the names of two other victims, 20-year-old christian lacour, his grandmother confirming that he was a security guard here, and that he was fatally shot. she described him as a beautiful soul who had big dreams for his future, and also aishwarya thatikonda, an indian woman who was an engineer here, a nonprofit confirming that she

was among those killed. her family now working to make sure her remains are brought back to india. and that is some of what we're learning. there are still six people, we're told, that remain in the hospital. three of them in critical condition. and among those six hospitalized, that does include children and they're also really powerful moments that have been happening at this vigil all day today. we witnessed a moment where half a dozen if not more employees who were here on saturday returned, and they were visibly emotional. they had to stop several times as they were walking over to this memorial to console each other, and they knelt and they prayed and they prayed and as one of them broke down crying, one of the guys that was holding her, he just shouted out, thank you, jesus, because it could have been us. and everybody gathered around them. i don't think there was anyone here who was not crying as we watched that happen, and many people here who were coming here thinking to themselves, that

could have been me. i spoke to a woman who has five kids, and she lives not far from here, and she talked about they come to this mall every couple of weekends, and they certainly could have been here this weekend, and that is what i think so many people are grappling with right now. it feels that there's no place that is safe. this outdoor mall, 120 stores, hundreds if not thousands of people who were here on that day, and a gunman gets out of his vehicle and as one witness described it, he just started firing in a straight line as people walked by, and so really, so much devastation and pain here on the ground right now. >> priscilla, thank you very much. ken, let's talk about the motivation of this person. clearly not mentally well. how could you possibly be mentally well if you do something like. this what are officials telling you? >> we've got two significant new pieces of information this hour about the shooter.

one, courtney kube got access to his military records and learned that he enlisted in the military in 2008 but washed out after three months over mental health concerns, so did not completely basic training. secondly, we have discovered a social media account linked to this person on a russian social media platform that is filled with white supremacist, racist, neo-nazi ideology, very disaffected, ramblings and writings, not coherent at times. at other times it is. what comes through is this person was frustrated and disaffected and isolated. there are disturbing photos, including a photo of a torso that looks like it could be him. it's impossible to know, with swastika and ss tattoos. and there's also a photo of a tactical vest that looks exactly like the one he was wearing

during the shooting that has white supremacist patches on it. we're going through the social media, catie. -- katy. this explains his motivations. >> any clues that might have been missed? >> i have not seen anything. so far in what i have read, threatening violence, but, you know, there are hundreds and hundreds of posts. i've only read a small fraction of them. i am told that law enforcement has been going through this for the last two days. >> he was threatening violence, got kicked out of the military. didn't even complete basic training for mental health. he was able to get a gun. texas authorized constitutional carry, law-abiding texans no longer need, there's no red flag

law, so if his mental illness was so bad that people thought maybe this guy shouldn't have a weapon, there's no red flag law in texas to stop him from getting one. ken dilanian, priscilla thompson, thank you very much for starting us off. joining is texas state senator roland gutierrez. i'll ask you about this. no red flag law. this guy clearly not well. who does this if they're well? you heard what ken laid out about his postings on social media, violent threats, not to mention all the other stuff. what could have been done to stop him from getting a weapon? >> absolutely nothing in texas. clearly because republicans in texas continue to expand access to assault rifles or guns to just about anybody. there's no registry. there's no red flag laws. as you suggested, you can walk around congress street here in austin with your ar-15 loaded and a cop can't even ask you a question. what's most interesting to me,

katy, is that after the walmart shooting that we experienced a couple of years back in 2019, the governor created the domestic terrorism task force because that shooter was a white supremacist, much like this one. that task force, which he is on, includes the director of public safety, steve mccraw, and was supposed to establish some units within the department of public safety to go track people like this, to go track their rants on the internet, and be able to try to stop them. that never happened either. we are in a chaotic state in texas, and we're in that state, katy, because greg abbott and his friends have put us here. >> why can't there be a conversation about ways to stop this from happening that are followed through on? i know greg abbott and the others would say that this is a mental health issue. that's what they have said in the past. and that it needs to be treated

at its source. i assume they don't want to see more people shot and killed. nobody wants to see more people shot and killed. say you believe very firmly in the right no matter what to hold a gun. you don't want that -- you don't want that push up against because crazy people are doing crazy terrible things, so i'm just curious why the conversation -- it's such a difficult conversation to have. why can't a reasonable conversation be had between the political parties in texas and between voters who want to see more stringent rules around this stuff? why can't there be some movement on this? what is the issue here? >> well, i'm trying, first off, katy. and i started off pretty nice about it. and i haven't been so nice about it lately, unfortunately. out of frustration. at the end of the day, if it's a mental health crisis, which it absolutely is, he's right in part. we are 51st in funding on mental health problems, we have 51st in

mental health crisis in this nation. why in the world have we developed a system where we give guns, just give people that are mentally ill unfettered access to all guns. you've seen -- after parkland, we saw 21 set of legislation, including extreme risk protective orders. florida has executed 9,000 extreme risk protective orders for people like this guy. somebody says, hey, he's saying some things on the internet, saying crazy stuff. he's got a whole bunch of guns. they have a hearing and they take the guns for a little bit, and we analyze and talk to this person. that's what keeping our community safe is about. your question specifically is what's greg abbott and his colleagues' motivation.

i don't know the answer to that. i come up with a conclusion that they clearly don't care about their constituents. 76% of voters. 66% of republicans want common sense gun safety solutions. it's abundantly clear that greg abbott cares about one thing and that's funding from the nra and strange article of faith that he gets from the ar-15. >> what do you think needs to happen for change? where is the line? is there one? >> we have three weeks back. i would be asking everyone to call the legislature, saying we have common sense gun safety solutions. raise the age limit on access to ar-15s to 21. have extreme risk protection orders like people are mentally ill. we see the rants, the comes could go in. anybody in texas could go to a gun show this weekend and buy an

ar-15 without sewing your identification. the republicans refuse to do anything. if we can't create some common sense gun safety, to your point, people need to start going to the ballot box and voting these people out of here, because like steven span, i saw children with their faces shot off. nobody should see this. i have seen children, i've seen piles of kids, two in one classroom, one in another, teachers laying draped across their children, trying to protect them. it's a kind of horror you've never seen in any horror movie. no one should have to go through this, katy. we have to do something, and we have to do something now. we can fix this problem. it just takes political will. >> took everything i had not to take my ifb out as you said that so i didn't have to hear it.

it's getting really difficult to have these conversations because we keep having them and nothing happens, and more kids keep getting shots, more parents, more brothers, more sisters, and it's horrible. roland gutierrez, state senator from texas, thank you very much for joining us. let's ask that question of senator chris murphy in a second. is something happening that's different in the senate. is there now enough for there to be change. >> and closing arguments wrapping in the e. jean carroll rain case. what donald trump's lawyers are relying on in the face of the deposition where donald trump said stars have been sexually assaulting people for many years, unfortunately or fortunately. his words. plus, he was choked to death on a new york city subway. what we know about jordan neely and the law and the mental health care system. why can't people who need help the most get it. it's a conversation we need to have right now. we're back in 60 seconds. rightn we're back in 60 seconds d of cls that just don't smell clean? downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters

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201 mass shootings across the country so far this year. that is 201 mass shootings in 128 days. so what are we doing about it? joining me now is connecticut senator chris murphy. senator, thanks for being here. i'll tell you about the conversation i had as i was leaving my house this morning with my -- with my kids' child care giver, our babysitter for our house, and she started crying because she said she's scared to go to a playground. there was a shooting at the playground around the corner from my house recently. she says she's scared to walk down the street. she says she's scared to get in the subway. she says she's scared to go to the supermarket, and we are here in new york city where comparatively gun violence is much less than other states around the country, red states in particular, according to the statistics, not anyone's opinion. what do we say to people who

feel like their own rights to feel safe in their communities, to live their lives, are being infringed upon by people who are demanding unfettered access to deadly violent weapons like ar-15s or ar-15 style rifles. >> also to say at the outset, of course that fear is totally logical when you are watching this cascade of senseless random gun violence. everybody feels like they might be next, but it is also important to right size that fear. you know, as we've talked about, i have two kids in the public school system, and i want them to understand that while gun violence is a real problem in this country, it is still very very unlikely that anyone is going to die in a mass shooting. it doesn't mean that we shouldn't take steps to stop

this from happening, but it doesn't mean that we all have to live every single minute of every single day in fear skpb that we have to become one big armed camp to try to prevent that gun violence from happening in our own lives. i think we have to just settle everybody down for a minute, and make sure there's an ability, especially for our kids, to get on with their lives. that being said, obviously this is happening here at a level where it happens nowhere else in the world. i left a meeting with a mother who lost her daughter in the nashville church school shooting. and it is just heartbreaking how families never thought this epidemic could come close to them are now having to deal with it. what do we do? we have consensus around parts of the agenda, when it comes to what needs to change. 90% of americans believe in universal background checks. 80% of americans think we should have red flag laws available to

us in every state, and so i know it sounds tiring but we have to keep at the work of changing out members of congress, and members of the state legislatures, and replacing them with people who are going to do the right thing. that's politics, that's democracy. it takes a while but that's the work we have to get done. >> i hear you but the randomness is what scares people. it's unpredictable, feels like it can happen anywhere, supermarket, school, a mall. put everything into perspective and live your life obviously. but it feels, and you're saying there's incremental people. it can feel that nothing is being done, and it's not being taken seriously, and that it doesn't matter that the biggest killer of kids in this country is guns. that's not a big deal. that's what it seems like to a

lot of voters there. >> you're preaching to the choir. i spend every single hour of every day that i'm here trying to wake my colleagues up to this reality that the thing that matters most to us in our personal lives, the safety of our loved ones. we would give away everything if it's what was necessary to protect our son and daughter. give away our life savings, home and car. our government, elected represent tichs seem prioritize our kids physical safety less after everything else, including the profits of the gun industry, and so i think there's just two ways to go, you can be hopeless and give up or you can decide to double down and join an antigun violence organization. work for a candidate who pledges to change things. unfortunately the gun lobby ran this place for 30 years. they were the most powerful political interest in

washington. they don't get dislodged in a number of years. i choose to be empowered by the fact that democracy gives us a choice, and every two years you can get rid of the guys standing in the way of progress, and bring in people who were going to do the right thing. if we do that in one or two more elections, we can pass a ban on assault weapons. we just have to do the right thing in the next few elections. >> senator chris murphy, thank you so much for joining us on what has been a series of hard days. and coming up, quote, she was exactly his type. closing arguments are underway in the e. jean rape case. what they told her attorney about why donald trump did not show up. eight people are dead in texas after a car plowed into a crowd at a bus outside a migrant center. what police are now saying about the driver what police are now st the driver ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing]

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where both lawyers for e. jean carroll and donald trump have been giving closing arguments. let's get right to ron allen outside of the courthouse for us. have they wrapped or is donald trump's team still giving their final thoughts? >>. >> we're close to wrapping, the plaintiff's attorneys have done a rebuttal, they have both giving lengthy closing statements that lasted an hour or more each. we expect this to wrap up in less than an hour or so. then the judge will strict the jury or may decide to do that tomorrow, send them home after all of this that they have taken in. things are coming to a conclusion here very soon and the plan was for the jury to begin deliberating tomorrow morning. that's what we expect. closing arguments on both sides, extremely passionate, and both sides, essentially saying that the other side is lying. of course, because that's what it comes down to. they're not arguing about details or about this fact or that fact, former president

trump continues to insist his side does in court that this did not happen. he was never at bergdorf goodman department store, it's a made up story she put in a book. they even reference there's an episode of the show "law and order" that aired a few years before her book came out that is about a woman being attacked at a bergdorf goodman in new york, and former president trump's attorney said isn't that a coincidence you would beware of that "law and order" episode, and you write your book about these things. what's the motive, they say it's political. this is all about trying to destroy former president trump. e. jean carroll's side, trying to convince the jury she is a courageous, brave woman, who sat on the witness stand and answered difficult questions because she truly was attacked, raped and they think her life ruined and they're asking the jury to believe her.

>> and they played that video deposition once again, replayed the access hollywood tape, replayed his response, stars have been doing that for millions, unfortunately or fortunately. as he said, played those to the jury. ron allen, thank you very much. and coming up, this is a day that we got to talk about this. why can't severely mentally ill people get the help they need before something violent happens? and what some state lawmakers are doing to change that. there is some change. first up, though, and on the same subject, the latest on the jordan neely story. what might happen to the subway rider who put him in that choke hold? r who put him in that chok hold (christina) with verizon business unlimited,

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the driver who allegedly rapid an suv into a crowd of a bus stop outside a migrant center in brownsville, texas, has been charged with manslaughter. >> a bronzeville local with a wrap sheet, ten counts of manslaughter and assault with a deadly weapon. he has received bonds totaling $3.6 million, and we have his picture on record of various producer risks. >> officials are waiting on the results of a formal toxicology report to see if the driver was drunk, whale police are working to determine whether the early sunday crash was intentional.

all of the victims including the 8 dead are believed to be migrants, while it's not clear if there's any sort of connection, the pandemic era border policy known as title 42 comes to an end on thursday. some officials say they are expecting a spike in border crossings along with claims of asylum. texas governor greg abbott said they're not and has employed a tactical border force of national guardsmen to block migrants from entering the country. and we are learning more about what's happening around the death of jordan neely. two sources tell nbc news the manhattan district attorney's office plans to present the case to a grand jury. protests continue to grow for criminal charges to be filed against the former marine who was recorded putting neely in a fatal choke hold. joining me now is nbc news correspondent george solis who has been following this story for us george, thank you for

being here. so jordan had a history with the police, he had a history of mental health checks. and now this ended in a terrible and tragic way, what is the latest and what might we expect to see in regards to the man who put him in the choke hold? >> good to join you. we got new reporting courtesy of jonathan dienst, the d.a. won't make a decision whether to present to the grand jury later this week. we know the d.a. has assigned a senior prosecutor to review all of the elements in this case, including the medical examiner's report which does in fact show that jordan neely died as a result of the choke hold. we know he's had a run-in with authorities over the years, and a couple of those instances involved mental health issues. now, his attorneys say he experienced the loss of his mother at the age of 14 when she was murdered. a lot of protesters have said this was a man who was troubled

but did not deserve to die. that video, that crucial video you see him being held not only by the man accused of killing him but you also have two other people that are seen restraining him as well. protesters, demonstrators are saying when are their names going to be released. will charges be filed for them? obviously there's going to be a large investigation as a part of this, and now with the time line sort of pushed back, many are still wondering, what charges and if they will ever be filed. >> and jordan neely had been investigated the day before for pushing somebody on to the tracks? >> we are learning to confirm that independently. we know he did have a number of arrests, 30 or so. so there is a picture here that we're still trying to put together as far as the arrest and both sides issuing statements to attorneys. the demonstrators are saying, look, there's nothing that you could tell us when we watch that

video that would justify your actions. so that is sort of the tail of the tape right now, and we are waiting to see, again, when and if a grand jury is convened and what those charges look like. >> neely was a man who needed help and was not getting the help he needed. george solis, thank you very much for being here, we appreciate it. and on that subject, we're going to talk about mental health and what has gone wrong in this country. why people who need it northeast aren't getting it. stay with us. need it northeast aren't getting it. stay with us not cryin', are y? let's tighten that. (fabric ripping) ooh. - wait, wh- wh- what was that? - huh? what, that? no, don't worry about that. here we go. - asking the right question can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this? - what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - yeehaw! - do you have a question? - are you a certified financial planner™? - yes. i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. find your cfp® professional at letsmakeaplan.org. (christina) with verizon business unlimited,

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the story wasn't supposed to end like this, a talented legal scholar who triumphed over mental illness. michael louder graduated with high hopes and honor from yale law school, a remarkable comeback after a long dark period, eight months in treatment for schizophrenia what often produces hallucinations. he kept hearing bells, that his neighbors were ringing them to announce the dawn. he feared some of his friends were in a cult. with the schizophrenia under control, he dazzled students and faculty at yale, becoming editor of the law review. a national mental health organization considered him an inspiration. last wednesday it all came crashing down. police accused him of stabbing his live-in fiance eleven times with a kitchen knife. >> the attack was particularly

brutal. it was vicious, there were repeated deep stab wounds to the victim in this case. she didn't have a chance. >> police aren't say what role if any his mental problems played. he said a drug treating schizophrenia was a huge help. now accused of a crime that stirs up the worst fears about serious mental illness. >> that was pete williams in 1998 reporting on the dramatic fall of michael lauder, though he brutally murdered his fiance, prosecutors conceded no jury would convict him after three doctors concluded he was insane. his childhood best friend investigates what went wrong and what should have been done to stop it. now when i think about the frenzied moments before michael killed kari, when violence was imminent, and intervention was necessary but impossible, i understand it isn't on the brink of crisis but earlier that

something can be done, only by a culture capable of making difficult choices and that has the resources to implement them. jonathan rosen joins me now. jonathan, thank you very much. i couldn't -- i had to put the article down because my kids kept interrupting me. it was a very compelling read because it does feel like we're in this moment because we cover so many of these stories where people are clearly not well. and something happens that leads them to do something terrible. it's been in the news today, it will be in the news tomorrow and the next day probably. when you were looking into this, tell me about what happened that stopped our society from giving help to the people who need it the most. >> yeah, that's a hard question only because it's hard to summarize. michael killed kari 25 years ago. i'm very moved seeing the clip of him now.

but i went back 50 years when i met him when i was 10, the book moves from childhood forward, and it was extraordinary to me how much optimism, goodwill, and hopefulness went into the destruction of the mental health care system. president kennedy had claimed that he wanted to replace, you know, the cold isolation of custodial care as he called it with the warmth of communal care. >> the institutions that were torn down, they were terrible. >> the institutions had become terrible but they had cared for the most severely ill for over a hundred years, and they were not built for terrible reasons. and so what we also live in a moment of now is the desire not to reform but to simply tear down and replace with something new. the something new that came along were community mental health centers. people thought because there were now antipsychotic drugs, they could empty the old mental health hospitals. >> and medicate people into

getting better. >> that's right. of course they needed follow up care and a community environment. the mental health centers, the names suggest they weren't replacing hospitals for the most intractably ill people, but that they were actually embracing a broad definition of mental illness. so broad you could actually call it mental health. and in no way do i mean to diminish the suffering of many many americans, but, you know, we live in this moment where everything in the diagnostic and statistical manual is mental illness, arachnophobia, schizophrenia. >> you're talking about severe stuff? >> the small people suffering from diagnosable severe biological orders and community mental health centers actively avoided those people because they needed so much care. the promise that was made to them was never fulfilled, and really, we have been betraying them ever since, but already 25 years ago, when michael killed kari, he had gotten sick in the

ruins of that system. and we're still all inside those ruins. >> and part of the issue is that when you are that sick, sometimes you do not know that you are that sick. you stop taking your medication because you don't believe you're ill. your psychosis makes you believe something else is happening to you, and you're trying to avoid that, someone's trying to drug you, they're trying to change you, whatever they're trying to do, for michael, nazis were chasing him and wanted to give him a lobotomy. you talk about how it relates to things we have experienced recently, and one of them was the pushing of michelle go into the train tracks last year, a big story in new york city. a violently mentally ill man pushed her in front of the tracks, and he was somebody who was like michael, needed the help and wasn't getting it. >> what was so extraordinary for me, you know, it took me ten years to write the book. the article is a piece of it. i always thought of michael as

absolutely extraordinary. he was brilliant. he went to yale law school despite schizophrenia. someone who went to law school with me called me what happened, and he assumed michael would have resources when he didn't. they were allowing his illness to assert itself. >> this is a push back to mayor adams who has introduced a policy of trying to forcefully help people who can not help themselves. >> yes. >> has been that it's a civil rights issue. it's a civil liberties issue. you cannot -- you have to respect somebody's autonomy, and you talk about here that sometimes the people that are in these scenarios don't understand what's going on around them. there's a woman who was on the street for ten years suffering. and she kept getting mental health checks. and she wasn't admitted because she wasn't violent. she wasn't forcefully admitted because she wasn't violent.

finally something violent happens, she does something violent. she gets forcefully admitted and gets stable and is fine a little bit later and counters the doctor who didn't admit her for all of those years. you son of a b you, left me out there to rot for ten years, if i was bleeding, my arm was bleeding, you would fix my arm but because it was my brain, you left me out there. >> yeah, and what's amazing is that, an amazing street psychiatrist told me that story. it was ultimately the police. it wasn't even this one psychiatrist or doctor who kept trying to avoid committing her in any way, and the people caring for michael, too, they wanted to save him from the system, not so much from his illness. >> it goes from hospitalization to criminalization, instead of doctors caring for these people, often times they end up in prisons and cops have to deal with them. we've seen this and had this conversation as well, it's not fair for cops to be doing mental health checks. >> absolutely. and in fact, there's an amazing

memoir by a guy who ran community mental health center, the one group they avoided were people released from hospitals because everyone around them was poor and marginalized and discriminated against, and they were, and what happens to those who are just as poor, marginalized and discriminated against who have a daughter or a father who's having a psychotic break, and the answer was, they call the cops. >> the state of california, gavin newsom has introduced new laws, new proposals, so has mayor adams, in your view after writing this book and article, how do you see those new policies? >> i think they are good policies, they're very subset o that have terrible illnesses, are too sick to know they're ill and are incapable of caring for themselves. the problem is if they're brought to the hospital what then happens? but to fault that policy for the

absence of all the other ones, only the state can net hospital beds. new york lost a thousand beds during covid. who decided being severely ill was like elective knee surgery and still haven't gotten those beds back. many things have to happen but it is a beginning, and it's a humane beginning, because to call a choice something someone is doing when they are dying in slow motion in front of us, i think, is not fair. i want people if they do anything to learn what it is they're arguing for. >> jonathan rosen, thank you very much. your story about your best friend from childhood michael laudor is on the cover of this month's "atlantic" and an excerpt from your book. thanks for being here. it was fascinating. i'll go out and pick up the book. what's it called? "the best minds"? >> yes. >> coming up, what the president

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you have a very strong economic recovery story, but this is a very volatile congress. there are members of congress that might be okay with us defaulting because they think it could hurt you more politically. given that, are you prepared to vote the 14th amendment and blow through the debt ceiling? >> i've not gotten there yet. >> that was the president not exactly ruling out using the 14th amendment to avoid defaulting on the nation's debt, a move janet yellen would risk a constitutional crisis. joining me now nbc news white house correspondent monica alba and nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake. homing you can flush that out. he said not yet. >> any time he says yet when it

comes to something this financially catastrophic ears perk up and people are going to pay attention but the reality check here in conversations with white house officials, even from the podium today is that that is really not something that this administration wants to have to resort to using and that is why they are really positioning this meeting tomorrow in the oval office with the four congressional leaders as being about urging congress to act and do its duty. that will be the main message from the president tomorrow and not talking about some of these other alternatives, even though there have been conversations throughout this entire process over the last couple of months about what is on the table and in the last couple of weeks or so, many of the top officials involved in this have said nothing is off the table when it comes to this but, of course, the priority becomes a little bit about the political messaging here, and the white house wants to say this is our number one plea which is for congress to act. we don't want to get to

exploring some other things but when you do talk to officials about whether that would even be risky or something, a path they would want to go down they say we really don't want that, that's what secretary yellen said over the weekend but it has been a part of the larger conversation, but you've also had a larger conversation about whether there's going to be a short-term extension, again, something the president isn't going to come into the meeting saying this is what i want. the fact they're coming together is significant. no one is expecting a ton of movement or progress out of this here tomorrow. >> does the white house think there's a scenario where compromising is gooder in them politically? he's compromising on immigration and moving to the middle. any scenario the white house has a secret list of things that they're happy or that they're willing to negotiate on? >> for months the president has said he doesn't want to negotiate, that the u.s. can't negotiate when it comes to something like the debt limit saying that's off the table and he's not going to be doing that. the fact that speaker mccarthy

and others are coming tomorrow to have the conversation shows, they would argue, already a little bit of willingness to compromise though what tangible outcome is up in the air. house republicans are vulnerable and a sign they don't expect anything to be solved. >> garrett, what's the congressional angle on this? >> look, that idea of compromising without compromising on the debt has me thinking that a short-term punt is probably the most likely outcome here. if the white house wants to say they're willing to negotiate on spending cuts but not do so in the face of the debt ceiling they got to move the calendar so the debt ceiling and usual annual spending process are more aligned. that's a possibility, this idea of a short-term extension that republican lawmakers think they might hear about in this meeting. i talked to dusty johnson late last week. he is a top ally of speaker mccarthy and he indicated to me the republicans wouldn't

necessarily be opposed to that in theory but they're not going to do it for free. they will argue they did pass a bill that raises the debt ceiling and that the white house's preferred outcome a clean raise without any strings attached didn't possible. there aren't the votes for it in the house. every republican opposed, and there aren't the votes in the senate, with at 43 senate republicans saying they won't support it. enough to filibuster and block it on the senate side. a willingness to engage in some kind of negotiation, but a demand even for a short-term boost of the debt ceiling there's got to be some concessions from the white house now. >> garrett haake, monica alba, thank you very much and that's going to do it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york, the violent collision of hate and easy acc