>> we cannot escape history, we will be remembered in spite of ourselves. those words were spoken by abraham lincoln in 1862 and they serve as a powerful warning to a congress that

remained deadlocked over slavery. it remained all to ambivalent over the mothers, the fathers, the children who were enslaved across the united states. of course, lincoln was right. histories judgment was fierce. it was politically craven and morally corrupt politicians, editors, and opinion shapers who fought emancipation every step of the way, they could not out-run histories searing grasp. 160 when there's -- remain marked by their actions and missions. the bibles cane, those cursed with that mark will be found guilty for centuries to come. just as it was when the blood red stain streaked across the decade since both connor and the segregationist of the 1960s brutalized those who believed in the self evident truth and that all men and women are created equal. defenders of that institutionalized racism degraded black americans and forever marked those moderates who silently stood by, too scared to speak up against the most extreme elements of their base. even after four little girls were blown up in birmingham, alabama, killed or are going to their sunday school classes, which brings us to this time. our time. politicians idly stand by as americans children andaughteredn

churches still, slaughtered in schools, still. slaughtered at country music festivals and outlet malls and in their own homes. all because these cowards fear gun lobbyists more than they fear the next uvalde. parkland or sandy hook. those enablers of slave holders and segregationists, these timid, empty, pathetic souls care more about beating back next year's right-wing primary challenge than they do saving young children's lives. but there is no doubt that these evacuees creatures will not escape histories thunderous verdict. the evidence of their guilt is overwhelming. over 1400 deaths by guns already this year. over 200 mass shootings over the first five months of 2023. more than 600 children killed already in 2023, continuing the horrifying reality that guns are the number one cause of death among american children.

the skyrocketing rise in violent gun deaths even since sandy hook a decade ago, the explosion of gun deaths in texas since 2014 because of radical gun laws that put deadly weapons in the hands of the untrained, mentally unstable and people. over that same time, one mass shooting after another mass shooting, after another mass shooting plays out over our smartphones and tvs. in texas and across america, after each texas massacre, governor abbott mumbles meaningless assurances, desperately trying to distract from the weapon that is killing our children, guns. more specifically, he celebrates, he celebrates the proliferation of guns and the weapons of war, even after sunderland springs, even after el paso, even after uvalde. and now cleveland. and now allen. and soon, the next school how leader that greg abbott and every other texas politician knows, tragically, is sure to come. as a lifetime gun owner, a

longtime hunter, and a dear friend told me earlier today, this is not who we are. as it was with slavery, segregation, nazism, 9/11, and january the 6th, we will one day move beyond this awful chapter in american history. but we are not going to do it before more innocent souls die from gunfire in schools, synagogues, churches, and in shopping malls. no. we cannot escape history. we will be remembered in spite of ourselves. so let us then redouble our efforts, do our part, raise our voices, volunteer our time, one for office and, for god sake, get out the vote. maybe then, and maybe only then, and we put an end to this madness. let's bring in msnbc and nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann. he's a host executive producer of showtime's the circus. author and msnbc political analyst anand giridharadas. we also have a host of msnbc politicsnation and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton, and former u.s. senator from missouri now and nbc news and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill. i will start with you, what is at stake here? >> the first level is peoples lives. you have shown example after example of people who are breathing, thriving, making plans no longer with us. i think it goes deeper than that. at the end of the day, this is an issue, as you've covered, where the vast majority of people want to do something

about this, and nothing continues to happen. it raises the question of whether this is even a functional democracy anymore. if things the overwhelming majority of people do not happen again and again and it becomes normalized, then we accept, right, that things we all want don't happen. you can go through the ritual of voting, but it raises the question of what this whole thing is. the last thing i will say is, i think there's been a lot of discussion, including on your morning show in recent years about the second american civil war coming, are we hitting this dangerous direction where the country is pulling apart? i think sometimes we are looking out for the wrong warning signs. we are getting used to low grade, chronic civil violence every day as a persistent reality in america. this is the form it takes. egged on by republicans, egged on by propaganda leaders in the media and social media. this is becoming a country where violence is just everywhere, all at once. >> by the way, when it comes to gun deaths, the gun lobbyists, the gun manufacturers, if a push paranoia and they have. they have for decades now and it's having an impact. anand brings up a great point. 90% of americans want universal background checks. 75% of americans want red flag

laws, the majority of americans want at the banning of ar-15 military style weapons. and yet, greg abbott and the state of texas elected three times. >> there is a concept in polling called salient. a lot of things people say that they believe in, that they don't go and vote on them. you look at abbott, you've got that graph up before of the deaths and gun deaths in texas, started in 2014, greg abbott was first elected. got reelected in 2018 and then 2022, after uvalde, he is running against beto o'rourke who was a passionate advocate for stricter gun safety laws. he creamed beto o'rourke. if you look at the exit poll in texas in 2022, was gone safety the number one issue? no. inflation was. was it a number? to know, abortion wise. number three? no, immigration was. gun policy in texas was the fourth most important issue, the most important issue to only 12% of the voters there. that is the answer to the question. the only way that there is moral courage required on the part of some of these people to do the right thing another vast majority of people want to see. but the truth is, until people start to lose elections because they defy the will of the people, they will not -- greg abbott is an object lesson is someone who has flaunted the vast majority of texans want, but they don't care enough to voted out on that issue. until they start doing that, he's going to keep flaunting. >> reverend, we saw with abortion this past year, the

tragedy of the dobbs decision leading to a ten year old girls being raped and having to flee their states, the tragedy of women suffering some guy. we saw that actually move the needle. abortion is now a critical issue in the next election that's coming, as it was in the last. the question is, how much bloodshed can americans take in their churches and synagogues and shopping malls, country music festivals all around america? how much more violence do they take before they say, enough is enough? >> and when will we stand up and say that if i look at my child and a gun, which one do i love the most? i think you are correct and starting the program, talking about the social movements that changed this country. you must remember the people in the civil war, the southern states protected their money, which was cotton. cotton was in the 19th century, -- cotton was getting. >> as was slavery. >> as was slavery. and then segregation states that wanted to protect that, we have seen texas and others are these states that want to protect gun manufacturers. there are profits in killing our children. it must be a movement. luckily, when you look at march for our lives and others, it's interracial in terms of these young people saying, wait a

minute, we are not going to sit by quietly and watch ourselves become target practice. but we can't go to school or anywhere. that movement must generate into the politics you are talking about and vote people out. it has to be a movement across racial lines. you are shooting young white kids in parkland just like you shot others. this has to stop. only a movement will stop it. >> claire mccaskill, you live in a red state, as i've lived in a red state for most of my life. i'm starting to hear people talk, starting to hear republican mothers on the him a morning of the nashville shooting crying to micah and me talking about their fear of sending their children to school, the tragedy of that, my god. when my parents it was like, you get joey off my like and have him stop crying about me leaving him in first grade. now you have parents afraid to leave their five year old children in schools. this isn't just on the upper west side of manhattan or miami beach. and this is in missouri, this is in northwest florida. this is across america. when does it have an impact? when do they say, enough is enough? >> you know, like all issues, it's about what people are thinking about in a moment. i think what has happened until now is the mass shootings were heartbreaking, and they were particularly painful for the

country and many independent voters when children were involved, but they would go away after a few days. then they would still be worried about the price at the pump or this, that, or the other. now it feels like it's a drumbeat. it feels like the slaughter is continuous. it feels like we have reached a new level of allowing horrible, horrible, horrible sliders of innocence in this country. i've got to tell you what i think is getting independent voters right now, i feel it in missouri, the idea that

republicans are talking about protecting children by banning books. they won't ban high capacity magazines killing their kids. >> you know, you wrote a book about persuading middle america. i know at your heart you are very optimistic. what needs to be done? what is next? if people watching tonight that may not have hope, give them hope. >> two things. first is a fear of paradox on this issue. the more those of us who want to end gun violence talk about it and make people afraid necessarily and being afraid drives people to the right, being frayed makes people buy guns. there is a thing about this to talk about this in a hallway. -- we have to have to show people what it's like on the other side of this chain instead of get rid of guns, get rid of guns, what wouldn't be like to send your kids to school and know they will come home? message, message to people what the world looks like after we have defeated this and remind people. >> what the world can look like and that this is a crazy thing. this is a choice. this is not like the currents,

this is not like the sun rising and falling. this is a choice that politicians are making to protect gun manufacturers more than our own children. >> we have come together time and again in our history, from your black and white footage onward. we have solved these kinds of problems in the past and we can do it again, and we will do it again. >> we will do it again. anand, thank you so much. greatly appreciate you coming out. coming up, next my interview with john fetterman and his that'll with clinical depression. a disease which is actually getting worse after he won the senate seat. >> you know, winning doesn't mean it still didn't hurt still. i laid there and watched this hurt my own children. ♪ ♪ ♪

>> we will do it again. anand, thank you so much. greatly appreciate you coming out. coming up, next my interview with john fetterman and his

that'll with clinical depression. a disease which is actually getting worse after he won the senate seat. >> you know, winning doesn't mean it still didn't hurt still. i laid there and watched this hurt my own children. ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ >> two things. first is a fear of paradox on this issue. the more those of us who want to end gun violence talk about it and make people afraid necessarily and being afraid drives people to the right, being frayed makes people buy guns. there is a thing about this to talk about this in a hallway. -- we have to have to show people what it's like on the other side of this chain instead of get rid of guns, get rid of guns, what wouldn't be like to send your kids to school and know they will come home? message, message to people what the world looks like after we have defeated this and remind people. >> what the world can look like and that this is a crazy thing. this is a choice. this is not like the currents, this is not like the sun rising and falling.

this is a choice that politicians are making to protect gun manufacturers more than our own children. >> we have come together time and again in our history, from your black and white footage onward. we have solved these kinds of problems in the past and we can do it again, and we will do it again. >> we will do it again. anand, thank you so much. greatly appreciate you coming out. coming up, next my interview with john fetterman and his that'll with clinical depression. a disease which is actually getting worse after he won the senate seat. >> you know, winning doesn't mean it still didn't hurt still. i laid there and watched this hurt my own children. ♪ ♪ ♪ you don't have to mow the lawn this weekend. with the performance of craftsman battery power by your side, you get to.

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>> three weeks ago today, newly elected pennsylvania democratic senator john fetterman returned to capitol hill. he'd been at walter reed hospital since mid february receiving treatment for clinical depression. fetterman suffered a stroke nearly one year ago, four days before the primary election. he's been open about his struggles with the aftermath. i sat down with the senator in washington to talk about tough road to recovery. you've said that your toughest time was after you got elected to the senate, which most people would think, hey, that should've been one of the great moments of the fight. but that's when your world sort

of collapsed. >> fetterman! fetterman! >> that's depression. depression you might win and you still feel like you lose. my family and i went through this grueling campaign, and now you've won and now, what's wrong with us? is it not enough for us? why do you feel this way? i try to explain to them, it's different. just because winning doesn't mean it still didn't hurt still. i lay there and watch this hurt my own children because they were confused because they thought just because you won, why aren't you -- you should be happy. >> can you talk about your decision to seek help, to go to walter reed? what was the triggering event for you? >> i will never forget the decision where it's like, if i don't do something to claim my life, this could be tragic. i was skeptical. i was kind of like, no, no, i don't really belong here. give me one last chance.

>> as he is seeking help for depression, his wife gisele, tweeting, after what he's been through in the past, year there's probably no one wanting to talk about his own health last night john. i'm proud of him for asking for help and getting the care he needs. >> you just talked about being skeptical. that you could get hope. can you talk about -- i think that's an attitude that men may have even more than women, men don't seek treatment as much as women do. >> this isn't a matter of who's tough and who's not. i have the blues, or i have a little melancholy. i was a big man. you are not too macho. it's no big deal. the only person you will really hurt more than anyone else is actually your family. >> did you get inspiration from people like lincoln and churchill who struggled with depression their whole lives and yet fought through it and changed the world? >> i would say there's almost

kind of an ability to it. we are suffering and there is no ability to that. maybe something where it toughens you up a little bit. but it didn't toughened me up. in fact, it nearly ruined me. i know i put my family through a lot of pain. >> when did you start to think, hey, i may be making progress here? i may be able to put one foot in front of the other, in front of the other, and move forward with my life. >> my first visit was my children really, after three weeks. my dad had left me these little post-it notes. my kids grabbed them and wrote encouraging notes everywhere. just dozens of these things in my room. it became kind of like, that is what sparked my idea that it's like, there is a whole big reason to get better. me putting my kids through the scare of losing me or what's wrong, you know, really was the

single biggest motivation to really take it on. i had a lot of support. i was ashamed, you know, that an 80-year-old boiler have the kind of enthusiasm and you've got this, that. i was the guy that should be the one cheering for them and encouraging them. but no, it was the children that we're doing all that. they didn't hold it against me. they let their love come through. that single thing, the catalyst. >> i saw you when you first came on the hill, when you are getting sworn in. i remember thinking at the time that this is tough enough for anybody to adjust to life on the hill. i could not imagine a pain you had to be in adjusting to the challenges after your stroke. adjusting to being this big guy, this take charge leader and suddenly have all these new challenges coming at you so quickly. it had to be so isolating. >> it's really the truth. oh, another thing that was very punishing at that time was that there was these social media blowtorch unleashed on my family as well. unleash whatever you want on me, but not my family. i just can't imagine anybody that would think it would be funny too make fun of children or whatever. >> i remember late in the campaign seeing one of your ads -- >> have you ever gotten knocked down, get back up! >> if anyone lives in any

community that was left behind or got knocked down, that's what his campaign is about. >> it was one of the most powerful campaign ads i've ever seen. you were talking about people who were forgotten, people who are struggling to get by, and it shows you talking onstage, talking about your struggles, and then showed them in the audience. there was this powerful connection. i wonder, does this draw you even closer to all those people? not only in pennsylvania, but across america, that feel like they are isolated, they are around, they've been left behind by washington. >> absolutely, joe. i will never, ever tire of wanting to pay it forward to having that gift. you can't possibly -- you can't fully appreciate being well then after realizing in a very dark place i was there. there is a lot of people it hurts. >> we are learning senator john fetterman is now out of the hospital after being treated for clinical depression. his message, he says, is that the president is treatable in treatment works.

>> so many people don't get quality health care treatment. what does the senate, what does the house, what does the president need to do to give more people a fighting chance with a depression, anxiety, suicidal ideations? >> this is not a democratic issue. this is not a republican issue. this is not hard right, hard left. this was just a human issue. if somebody is living right now in a red county that desperately needs mental health, and there is a person in a blue

county that needs to make somebody to speak to because they are thinking of harming themselves, and we all need to be creating a national priority. i would tell anybody watching this, i'm begging you, please go look for your treatment. it works and it's what saved me from my anguish. >> john heilemann and -- still with us. clare, talk about the political courage this showed. >> yeah, this is a man who had an opportunity so just say he had a physical ailment that made it impossible for him to serve because of the impact the stroke had had on his processing and auditory ability. he could've easily walked away and quietly gone back to pennsylvania. no one would ever know about how it's debilitating this mental illness is. no one would truly understand that it takes courage for a man like john fetterman to say, hey, i'm suffering so seriously i must be hospitalized with an illness no different than

cancer, no different than heart disease. but our country still stigmatizes. by the way, republicans give a lot of lip service to this. there's a few exceptions, but most of them give lip service, mostly around shootings. this is a man who has walked the walk. i think he will go down in history as doing more for mental health of this country than any other elected official we've ever seen. >> john heilemann, this is the cutting edge. you had a great insight on generational change, how it moved because of a new generation. whether you are talking about marriage equality, whether you are talking about legalization of marijuana. and now mental health. how does john fetterman play into that story? >> first of all, watching that interview, great interview.

and just the honesty, and the emotion, the authenticity that radiates from that interview. this guy is when -- these are the moments. i don't want to talk about the political career terms. issues, legislation, things people go on capitol hill every day mean nothing to most people in america. this is something that people look at john fetterman and say, i believe my brother, my sister, my mother, my father, someone who -- that's why i think about game marriage as a great example. that transformation where we everyone said, i have a lesbian sister, i have a gay brother, a cousin, a college classmate. suddenly, the attitudes, that generational change, the attitudes towards it changed overnight almost and we live in a different world. misses the beginning of that

conversation. clare's right. still massively stigmatized in america. but a rising generation has a different attitude towards mental health. now we have a champion, someone who is doing exactly the right way with honesty, candor, emotion, evident emotion in every moment he spoke. i think this is the man-made moment and a turning point in how we think about these issues. >> i really think it is. i will tell you why. senator fetterman told me that republicans greeted him warmly, just like democrats greeted him warmly. he said because this cuts across all political barriers. john heilemann, thank you so much. senator claire mccaskill, thank you for your time tonight. greatly appreciated. coming up, someone else who

knows a thing or two about tyler perry now sits at the head of a billion-dollar media empire. but it started with him sleeping in his car, homeless. my conversation with tyler, next.

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meet the future. a chef. a designer. and, ooh, an engineer.

all learning to save and spend their money with chase. the chef's cooking up firsts with her new debit card. hungry? -uhuh. the designer's eyeing sequins. uh no plaid. while mom is eyeing his spending. nice. and the engineer? she's taking control with her own account for college. three futures, all with chase. freedom for kids. control for parents. one bank for both. >> there are a few names and chase. make more of what's yours. media known as well as tyler perry, and certainly nobody as successful. i recently caught up with the media mogul at his massive studio campus in atlanta. this place is just incredible. reverend al told me about it, tell me about what an extraordinary community you've built their. that i saw on instagram, what was it, geo -- >> and geometric. >> you lived in, you are homeless when you came to atlanta. how do you process that? that you go from that to where

we are right now. >> very gradually, you know. the time it took to get from there to hear it was all of 20 something years. but the process of it was so important and i talked to a lot of people who are up and coming in try to get things going. i'm like, enjoy the process. it's kind of hard to say enjoy the process when you are sleeping in your car, but having an understanding of, if you have a goal and you try to reach that goal, there is a buy in. i've always looked at it as a buy in. >> it has to be crazy for you. he open up the forbes top entertainers, tyler perry, the same guy that lived in that car, the only billionaire on the list. i would guess hollywood is paying attention now in a big way. you don't play by the rules. >> it was out of necessity. it was out of understanding that when i got to hollywood, it's a much different place than it is now. diversity, diversity, diversity. i was thinking of diversity before that thing even became a thing. i will tell you what happened.

i think this is when i started to get acknowledged, honestly. the tragedy of george floyd. after that, the academy awards honored me with the award and the emmys. but it wasn't until people saw the horror of that, to have people understand what the fight has been and start to acknowledge it is really, really great. but i was very comfortable being hidden. let them underestimate you. i think my first deal with the lyons gate -- >> why -- >> it is so great. they paid for half and didn't believe it worked so they sold the other have to b. e. t., which is a full circle moment right now. to go in the room and make a deal to say i have an airship. i don't care, this isn't going to do anything. great. $50 million and i was like, wait a minute, what? ♪ ♪ ♪ >> i do solemnly swear that i will faithfully execute the office of the president of the united states. so help me god. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> so you shoot the oval here. how many episodes so far? >> i think we are at 420, just past that point. it's been a good run. a really, really good run. i've got to show you the oval office. >> okay. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> a lot of black panther we shot here.

most of it, actually. the costumes, the wardrobes. all those stages are always win three years at a time. you visited the oval office for sure. >> i have, and this is perfect. >> pretty close. when i set out to help someone, it is my intention to do just that. i'm not trying to do anything other than meet somebody at their humanity. >> in the academy award speech, you talked about how we need to start talking to each other again. not just politically, but also people of different faiths. >> as i think about that and look at what is happening in the world, you couple bond problem we have in this country, i'm a gun owner -- >> i'm a gun owner as well. like most gun owners, it is just too extreme, isn't it? >> it's too extreme. regulation is not a bad thing. i think part of why the gun violence has gotten so bad over the past few years is because of what we are being fed through the internet. along with it just the access to ar-15s and anything in that vein. i am worried for my eight -year-old, for these things that are not being regulated, not being talked about, not being fixed by the people that we are putting in office. >> when i build my studio, i built it in a neighborhood that's one of the poorest black neighborhoods in atlanta so that young black it's could see that a black man did that and they can do it as well. ♪ ♪ ♪ misses the pretty famous house,

this is madea's house. my most famous character. i've got to go to the liquor store to get mine. i'm going to show you this -- filmed in the 18 hundreds, the slaves of built a lot of these buildings we are about to see. i understand the history, i understand what i have stewardship over. i do my best to try and honor it and try to make sure all these historical buildings remain just as they were. >> so how many acres? >> it's 338. i just bought 39 more acres on the other side. the amount of money that they spent on those sets, putting them down, building them up. i always thought, build it permanently. refurbish it, redo it. that's why built the white house. >> we talked about all the incredible things that have happened over the past 20, 30 years. for somebody who is down right now, somebody who's been -- who has lost their job, they don't think they can get out of bed and get moving and keep pursuing that dream, can you give them some hope? can you talk about a particularly low point for you where you pulled yourself out of bed and you said, i'm going to just put one foot in front

of the other? >> you just gave the answer. one foot in front of the other. so many times i just remember i went by this hotel a couple of years ago, i would go by every now and then. it's one of those hotels where there are drug addicts and everybody is down on their luck and up staying. i was in one of those places. i remember wanting to die. i did want to get out of bed. it was freezing cold. every morning, everybody would come out and start their old cars and there was a crack on the door, about this wide. i just prayed that the fumes would fill the room and i would just die. >> you wanted to die? you were praying to god that he would take you? >> it's too much, the pain was too much. what i been through as too much. i'm homeless, i don't have food to eat. i'm just done. in that moment, as i'm sitting there praying in tears, everybody is warming their cars, up all the cars drive away almost simultaneously. it's little moments like that where i'm like, okay, i have to go to work. those moments gave me, like, you are okay, you are going to be okay. i would say to anybody, just look for the little things that encourage you. even if you don't see anything. the little, small things that keep you going. for every little thing that somebody can do, it's a little step, each step is forward. to be here on this side, what i

would say to anybody, if the pain is the buy in, what are you paying for? had i stopped then, had i died then, had i given up, i would've missed the best part of my life. i would've missed being able to help thousands of people see their dreams. my hope for anyone who knows, like you know it, you know it in your soul, there is something, no path, and nothing makes sense, you don't know how to get there, but you know for sure something is out there, my hope is one step at a time. keep going. >> one step at a time, keep going. what a guy. you know what comes through with tyler is just how real, just how authentic he is. >> and nobody i've met in my journey has been more authentic. the thing that people need to understand about the phenomenon he's become is not only was he black in a world that was dominated by whites, he was not even in the black elite. he was able to come from being homeless and broken, where blacks would look down on him, and he broke through. now all of them are trying to get into a tyler perry situation. [laughter] he gave hope to people -- he was more rock-bottom than anybody that goes to see his shows. his story is the story of hope for everybody. >> it's really incredible. you are right. he snuck up on hollywood. here's a guy who is in atlanta,

they gave him no respect. this year, on the forbes list of the richest entertainers. he is the only billionaire on the list and did it all himself. >> he did it all himself and he remained himself. he did not try to become hollywood. he made hollywood become tyler perry. [laughter] i think that is something. he's a transformational figure. we really to tell all our children about him because there is nobody that has traveled as far as heated as fast as he did without losing who they are. >> it's an extraordinary story. he's an extraordinary man. reverend, al, thank you so much. we will see you tomorrow morning? >> brighton early. >> i will see you bright in early. coming up next, another legend of the entertainment industry whose brought us bridgerton, grey's anatomy, now the number one shot on netflix. my interview with the one and only shonda rhimes.

for every little thing that somebody can do, it's a little step, each step is forward. to be here on this side, what i would say to anybody, if the pain is the buy in, what are you paying for? had i stopped then, had i died then, had i given up, i would've missed the best part of my life. i would've missed being able to help thousands of people see their dreams. my hope for anyone who knows, like you know it, you know it in your soul, there is something, no path, and nothing

makes sense, you don't know how to get there, but you know for sure something is out there, my hope is one step at a time. keep going. >> one step at a time, keep going. what a guy. you know what comes through with tyler is just how real, just how authentic he is. >> and nobody i've met in my journey has been more authentic. the thing that people need to understand about the phenomenon he's become is not only was he black in a world that was dominated by whites, he was not even in the black elite. he was able to come from being homeless and broken, where blacks would look down on him, and he broke through. now all of them are trying to get into a tyler perry situation. [laughter] he gave hope to people -- he was more rock-bottom than anybody that goes to see his shows. his story is the story of hope for everybody. >> it's really incredible. you are right.

he snuck up on hollywood. here's a guy who is in atlanta, they gave him no respect. this year, on the forbes list of the richest entertainers. he is the only billionaire on the list and did it all himself. >> he did it all himself and he remained himself. he did not try to become hollywood. he made hollywood become tyler perry. [laughter] i think that is something. he's a transformational figure. we really to tell all our children about him because there is nobody that has traveled as far as heated as fast as he did without losing who they are. >> it's an extraordinary story. he's an extraordinary man. reverend, al, thank you so much.

we will see you tomorrow morning? >> brighton early. >> i will see you bright in early. coming up next, another legend of the entertainment industry whose brought us bridgerton, grey's anatomy, now the number one shot on netflix. my interview with the one and only shonda rhimes. ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪ jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. jardiance may cause serious side effects including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction, and don't take it if you're on dialysis. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. ♪ jardiance is really swell, ♪ ♪ the little pill with a big story to tell. ♪

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deland keeps making hit after hit. the latest show queen charlotte is now the number one show on flicks. just before its premiere, i get a chance to sit down and talk with shonda rhimes. now the full interview is going to be on morning joe tomorrow morning, but here is a quick look at some of what we talked about. >> you walk in here, shonda land, you just became this icon, this global icon. how can you ever explain to the ten year old version of yourself, with five siblings, that this is where you go are going to end up. >> and a lot of, ways in my childhood, i spent all this time wanting to be a doctor, work in washington, wanting to do all these things and realizing i might not want to do, them i just want to research and write about them. >> you go all over the, placed different genres, different settings, different generations, different centuries, does that keep you interested in the

process? does that keep everything fresh for you? >> it does, and i feel like people who do one and done sort of thing, i was never that comfortable that i was successful. i was being inducted into the television academy hall of fame by oprah. >> shonda rhimes, this is your time. that was, oprah just did my introduction. that was the moment. i'm okay now. it took a long time, i do not take things for granted, i was a very much like we have to make more shows. i only made things i'm excited about. >> about grey's anatomy, can we talk about, that what was good is, -- i did not know the rules, i did not know what you are supposed to, do what you should tell, so i just wrote what i thought was interesting. >> then there was bridgerton, you produced bridgerton.

bridgerton obviously breaks all the rules. >> when i first read the books, i could picture myself in the show, in the books, if you can picture yourself in something, then to me that feels like it is universal enough. also, i was never going to make a show that was not going to include, me or someone who looked like, me that was not going to happen. i was not interested in that. so the idea that came upon this, there is real belief that queen charlotte was a woman of color, and we sort of ran with that, and made a story about how she changed society and talked about all that. >> the process of writing, and seeing great riders talking about whether it is movies, tv, some will just start with that rough outline. how do you do it? what is your process? >> i do not start writing until i know what i will write, and i do not write outlines. i go with all the stories flowing. what is really good about that,

you get to follow your instincts. a lot of the stuff that comes to me comes to meet when i'm lying in bed, or after i have gone to sleep. mostly, the things i think of at night, -- i know there is something. >> another incredible creator. you can see much more of shonda rhimes tomorrow in my interview with her on morning joe. thank you so much for being with, us this has been a special addition of joe presents all in with chris hayes will be back tomorrow night, up next tonight, rachel maddow investigates the far right ties of the gunman who killed eight people, including little kids at that shopping mall in allen, texas. the rachel maddow show starts on the other side of this break. thank you so much. k you so much. my asthma felt anything but normal.

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