actually be down at the border as this is going down, doing some coverage for us. look out for that. we know the white house is preparing for all options possible, and republicans are certainly ready to weaponize whatever might happen out of this. we've seen the migrant caravans, you'll remember, from the 2018 midterms, how president trump tried to use it against democrats up and down the ticket. this is something that, of course, republicans have been hammering them on for a long time. i think it's something that we won't see them let up on through the 2024 election. >> all right. of course, we'll be covering that all week long as title 42 does expire. alexi mccammond, thank you, as always. we appreciate it. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this tuesday morning with us. "morning joe" starts right now. look at that beautiful sunrise in new york city. 6:00 on the east coast. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday.

>> look, willie. can you imagine? >> no. >> like, waking up every morning there. what a view mika has. again, i don't know about the satellite dish, but, you know, when she sees a ram, she goes out and moves it a little bit west, picks up, yeah. >> some people have the red zone package. mika gets out there game to game. if the team gets to the red zone, she turns it in that direction. you can watch the end of the game. >> okay. >> i've never been invited up there. wonder what it looks like. >> i haven't either. sometimes she lets jack go up to move the satellite dish. jack, upstairs, downstairs. >> no. >> oh, ms. mika. >> funny with the two of you in new york city saying all this. ridiculous. >> are you up there? >> she's up there, straight up. >> no, this is not. do you see the cup? 15 years of this, 15. >> 15 years. you know what? it keeps getting easier every day, baby, doesn't it? >> no. wow, just wow, okay.

>> look at that, the sun. i want some cat stevens. morning is broken, come on, look how beautiful. >> all five boroughs of new jersey. i wouldn't know, but i'm told you could see it. >> eddie glaude, how are you doing? >> dean's day at princeton. >> wonderful. >> that's interesting. alabama, we'd have ribs day. that sounds really hoity-toity. we go to dreamland ribs and talk about the football game. what happens on deans day? >> all the written work is due, the end of the semester. students are at the homestretch. they're crossing the tape. >> can i ask you one thing? >> yes, sir. >> what's a dean? >> what's a dean? >> yeah. >> oh, the dean of the college. it's the dean of the college, not a restaurant. >> oh, joe. >> football coach at alabama? >> yeah, i think, kind of. >> we'd have coaches' day down there. >> every day. >> after ribs day.

>> get your picture with the coach, yeah. >> on the riblet. i'm telling ya, it was great stuff. no, it's amazing, college. have you been to tuscaloosa, rev? >> i have been. >> i joke about it a lot because, of course, they're embarrassed that they let me in. you know, it's an incredible place. >> i brag about it. i know you in tuscaloosa. i always tell everybody, i'm your friend. >> thank god. >> after i do my morning work. i just got back downstairs. mika lets me go upstairs. >> whoa. >> i go on the balcony, "let there be my light." that's my thing. >> lemire, you ever up there? >> not once. i spend a lot of time in this building, particularly in the early morning hours, but i've never been up here. rev, it's lovely. >> i have to do the "let there be light" for mika every morning. >> mika on the top floor right there now.

katty kay, i know, 4:00, because i hear about it, katty is coming over. we can't do the conference call at 4 44:00, we're having tea an crumpets, every day. >> you have to have the clotted cream at 4:00, and that takes 45 minutes. then it is cucumber sandwiches time, getting us through 5:30. there's a lot to do. >> for katty, it's actually noon. >> that's a lot. tuscaloosa, we had ribs and white bread. that's it. >> no cucumber sandwiches? >> you go to dreamland, and they say, "sides," and it's just white bread. >> you have to stock up on something. >> katty, i haven't talked to you since the coronation. how did king charles do? any fights break out with the family in the middle of trafalgar square? everything go okay there? >> he got a crown on his head,

so that's a plus. you know, that was the bottom line. that was the gist of it. look, there was a little bit of a hitch. it didn't all go as smoothly as we had planned. for some reason, kate and william turned up late. it's a coronation. how do you turn up late? >> i know. >> seriously? >> in fairness, traffic. >> seriously. in the running order, the order of service, the prince and princess of wales, kate and william to you, are meant to be sitting there in their seats when the king comes up the abbey in his procession. no kate and william. we don't know what happened. anyway, they roll up. the king gets in his carriage and has to sit there twiddling his thumbs. >> a power mover, i like it. >> it is a power move. he's saying, you'll be dead in a few years. i'm going to be king. he shouldn't be saying that on his dad's coronation. >> joe! >> that's what he was saying. >> that's a male response. i'm sorry. >> it's a nikki haley response. >> they have three small children and one of the children, something went wrong. don't you think, mika?

little prince had a hissy fit. every working parents' nightmare, that's what happened. >> mika was saying to me, she was saying, oh, did charles, like, did charles have a hissy fit? everybody says that charles is angry and everything, kind of like the pin thing. i said, listen, if i'm being coronated king and any one of my kids are late, i'm not going to be happy. >> yeah. >> like, the fact that charles stayed in his, like, cinderella, i would have broken it out. going up and down with the phone, "where are you?" come on, man. so there he is. >> hmm. >> yeah. >> speaking of tuscaloosa, we need that in tuscaloosa. all right. yeah, anyway, it's very interesting. i'm going to leave it at this. i looked right before the coronation about their approval

ratings, these royals. they all seem to be doing pretty well. charles is going up. camilla still having some problems, but everybody else going up. i will tell you, i don't think it's the case in america, but in britain, man, prince harry and meghan at the bottom with andrew, huh, katty? >> yeah, they don't like prince harry. there is no sympathy for prince harry after the book he wrote and for the tell-all. it was -- there's very much been a reaction. listen, if you have these problems with the family, you keep them to yourself. you do not need to make a lot of money by doing a tell-all book about the royal family. so there's not a lot -- i'm just looking at these pictures, having flown back to washington. i do kind of see how ridiculous it is. >> yeah. >> well, no, it's great. this is great stuff. >> i love it. but i'm looking and thinking -- >> no, it's awesome. come on. >> exactly. >> i agree with you, katty.

>> it is great stuff. we love it. we're looking forward to william in a few years. >> exactly. >> okay. >> long live the king. >> long live the king. so yeah, that's the problem, he talked. don't talk out of school. >> harry. >> don't talk about your family. don't talk about your mom and, like, her favorite lotion. it's just all -- come on, what is he doing? >> whatever the opposite of a royal watcher is, that's me. my insights might not be the best here. i share katty's view, and i'm glad she said it and i didn't. the shot with the hats or whatever it is, the crowns, it's silly, but we're still doing it. harry given a third row seat, not invited to the after party, whatever the thing after the thing was called, and just got back on the plane and headed home. tough love there. >> third row seat is pretty good, better than bob uker or i

got. >> still calling games. >> still alive. >> such a hero. >> hall of famer. >> best seats in the house, mika. >> i have no control over this situation. >> mika? >> yes? >> you will notice that, unlike harry, i've written no tell-all books about you or your penthouse apartment. >> okay. >> or the rev coming up and working out up there. >> what? >> everybody else. >> okay. >> keeping it all to myself. she just -- >> let's cut his mic. >> -- leaves me in a shack down by the river. so sad. >> why don't you stay right there? ahead this morning -- >> got to the news at 6:08, 49 seconds. >> discussing the debt ceiling. the first face-to-face on the issue since february. we'll go through what is expected to come out of this afternoon's talks. plus, an update on donald trump's civil rape trial, as the case goes to the jury for deliberations in a few hours. and we'll take a look at a much more muted victory day

celebration in moscow today, and what it says about the popularity of vladimir putin's invasion of ukraine. first, we are learning new information this morning into the investigation into saturday's mass shooting at an outlet mall near dallas that left eight people dead and several others injured. social media postings reveal the gunman shared extremist beliefs online with rants against jews, women and racial minorities. one post included a series of shirtless pictures with visible white power tattoos, including ss lightning bolts and a swastika. in the weeks leading up to the attack, he posted more than two dozen photos of the allen premium outlets where the shooting took place. we've also learned the gunman had a brief stint in the army. he entered military service in june of 2008 but was kicked out three months later for a physical or mental condition. he did not complete initial

entry training. right now, investigators are analyzing evidence found from two locations. his family's home and a hotel. a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation tells nbc news it may take weeks or even months for investigates to gain a more complete picture of the gunman's ideology. at this point, he has no criminal record that authorities are aware of. willie? >> let's go live to allen, texas, where we find nbc news correspondent maggie vespa. maggie, good morning. as we talk about the shooter in this case, in this horrific case, another horrific case in our country, focus on the victims, as well. some of them as young as 3 years old. >> reporter: yeah, willie, children, young children as you point out from two north texas families among the victims. that speaks to why the memorial behind us is so large and growing by the day. we had a huge vigil out here last night. there was actually somebody directing traffic into the parking lot. he was stopping people and saying, are you here to pay your

respects? if people said no, he said, then you can't come in here. this is what this parking lot right now is being used for. we're going to talk about the shooter as little as possible, but motive is a huge question, right? the haunting social media posts that have come to light in the last 24 hours really shedding a lot of light, investigators say, on what may have been behind this. the shooter was killed in a shootout with police. we have an update on that officer here in a minute. a senior law enforcement official telling nbc news that those posts, no surprise here, will absolutely and already are a key part of this investigation, including another post in addition to the ones mika highlighted, that seems to show a receipt for $3,200 worth of firearms, ammo and weapons. that, again, also part of the investigation at this point. also, obviously turning to politics, that's a backdrop right now, days after the horrific shooting here on saturday, texas republicans, including senator ted cruz and governor greg abbott, saying that guns are not the problem,

pointing to mental health. using the same rhetoric we're used to hearing in times like these, and facing the familiar backlash we're used to seeing in times like these. given that, we want to zero in on the victims who everybody is honoring day after day. we have new names as of last night. i want to read these correctly. 3-year-old james cho, the youngest victim. he was killed along with his parents, cindy and kyu cho. 6-year-old brother, william, just turned 6, is the only survivor of his family. also, the mendoza family lost 11-year-old daniela, 8-year-old sofia, and their mother is in critical condition from the shooting. also among the victims, 32-year-old elio cumana-rivas. aishwarya thatikonda, and the security guard at the mall, christian lacour. people trying to name them more than the shooter, which we always make a practice of. finally, the police officer who authorities say killed the

shooter here at the mall in that shootout, he was wounded, being hailed as a hero this morning. overnight, an attorney saying the officer is, quote, doing well. adding, he is a brave servant with a gentle heart. all of our hearts go out to that officer, to his family, and to the families of all those wounded and killed in america's latest mass shooting. guys, i'll send it back to you. >> at an outlet shopping mall on a saturday afternoon. maggie vespa in allen, texas. maggie, thanks so much. let's put that picture up again. joe, this is what we're talking about. this is a family out for a day of shopping at an outlet mall. all three of the people in that photograph are dead for the crime of walking around a mall. their 6-year-old son, as maggie pointed out, william, survived. now, he will grow up without his parents, without his sibling, because they went to a mall on saturday. >> willie, this tragedy is repeated every day. repeated every day across america. every day, whether we report it or not, you know, because we

done have the time in a four-hour show to report all the killings that take place in america. >> yeah. >> you look at the numbers. greg abbott, i mean, it's just absolutely discussing that greg abbott puts up tweets saying that texas is only number two in the states that have purchased new guns. said he is ashamed, they need to be number one. he changes law after law after law that makes it easier for people that are unqualified, untrained, emotionally unmoored, and they get guns. untrained. he says, "i'm embarrassed." this is in 2015. "texas number two in the nation for new gun purchases, behind california. let's pick up the pace, texans." of course, he wants the nra to know he is being a good boy. he wants the nra to know he is a faithful servant, that he is going to care more about the gun lobby than children that get killed in his own state. by the way, this is about guns.

the whole, you know, it's not guns that kill people, it's people that kill. oh, really? let's look at the last ten years. as guns have continued to skyrocket in the past ten years, as gun laws have become stupider, more dangerous and more deadly, look at firearm mortality in the state of texas. it has skyrocketed. it co keeps going up. the same thing has been happening in america since sandy hook. these politicians, they know it. they know it. you look at the mass -- well, the gun deaths since 2024. again, this is not an accident. this is not like the tide is coming in and going out, like it's nothing we can stop. this is an american crisis. it's not a british crisis. this doesn't happen in britain. it's not a crisis in france.

it's not a crisis in australia. this is american crisis and one of our own choosings. rev, the numbers keep skyrocketing, and they keep saying the same stupid thing. after texas churches are shot up, after texas malls are shot up, after texas schools are shot up, after little children are gunned down in uvalde. they're, i'm sorry, heartless, soulless. they are heartless, soulless politicians who continue to let these kids die because they don't want to cross an nra that is just not as powerful as it used to be. >> they don't want to cross an nra. they don't want to stand up to the gun manufacturers. when you say that it is not the guns, it's the people, people could not kill without the gun. >> well, and they get people, by the way, in great britain -- we can ask katty this question -- but they have people in great britain -- >> but they don't have the guns for the people in great britt

pain. >> britain. >> by the way, they don't have laws in britain that allow people to get a gun without training or permits. i have guns. guess what else i had? i got training. i got a permit. went through the process. practiced at the range. they have idiots now, and you talk to gun shop owners, and they will go, like, they'll tell me, "this guy just walked in. he's an idiot. i had to sell him the gun." you know, pass this cursory check, and it's, again, greg abbott and texas legislators are killing little children every day because they won't do what is required to keep them safe in school, to keep them safe in churches, to keep them safe in synagogues, to keep them safe at country music concerts. >> no, it is an unbelievable crisis that we have self-inflicted so that others

can make crazy money selling us guns and just keep doing it. no one is standing up. there must be a movement across all lines to stop this. that's the only way. >> has to be. >> governor abbott immediately tries to short circuit any gun conversation by saying, this shooting happens, another one, "we have to look at mental health." which, yeah, we do. he doesn't want to factor in the guns. after the shooting in nashville, the covenant school, you had members of the delegation, republicans in congress and texas saying, "we can't do anything up here. sorry, it's the price of freedom." i don't think joe thinks, i don't think anyone here thinks that most of the country agrees with that. >> right. >> no one wants the price of freedom to be the 3-year-old kid at a mall or a 9-year-old kid at the school in nash. >> the country doesn't protect our babies, then expects them to

grow up and save the country. it's terrible. it's a corruption of the soul. we talk about fighting for the soul of america, right? this reality, it reflects the kind of corruption of the soul for me. it seems to me, and i'm just going to echo something rev said, we can talk about the nra. we can talk about, you know, the gun manufacturers. we can talk about republicans. we have to fight for a world where this is not happening, right? i have a sneaking suspicion, joe, that the data we just showed, that mass murders are actually correlated with the availability of the ar-15. >> right. >> of assault weapons. so it seems to me that there could be a general agreement among all americans, that that weapon should not be in the hands of americans. it shouldn't be on our streets. and so if we can't make that decision, it's not just simply about republicans and the nra and the gun lobby. it's about us. if we can't fight to get those weapons off our streets so we can protect our babies. >> you talk to most sheriffs,

especially cops in big cities, you talk to most people in the military, they don't want americans, especially without training, to be running around with ar-15s. those are weapons that were designed for war. in case somebody is tuning in for the first time specifically, you know, read the 1981 "atlantic" article. it was designed to be smaller caliber, easier to run through the jungles of vietnam, easier to kill more vietnamese than the heavy weapons that were being used at the time. but you look, though, at the numbers here, jonathan. i do believe there's going to be a change in america. i do believe it's coming, just like it has on abortion, in a way that people have just had enough. i mean, you look at what we're showing you right there. the ar-15 used in the deadliest mass shootings. you know why? because the ar-15 is not

designed for hunting. the ar-15 is not designed to protect our house. the ar-15 is designed to kill people. specifically, to kill lots of people in warfare. and this is what happens in america. and this is a choice that greg abbott and our politicians make every day. so most americans actually are with us, right? this is 90% wanting universal background checks, 75% wanting red flag laws, overwhelming majority of americans want one new gun safety regulation after another. even a majority of americans want ar-15s banned. 77% want a 30-day waiting period. 81% want there to be a

requirement that someone has to be 21, which makes sense, for all gun purchases. what we are saying right here, this is not, like, some elitist view. the isolated view is the other side, the greg abbott view. yet, he ignores the will of 90% of americans. >> he does. >> small kids die in his state. >> it can't be overstated that the a are,-15 is designed not just to kill people, but to kill as many people as quickly as possible. the wounds are not meant to be survivable. the impact of a bullet fired from an ar-15, "the washington post" did a series on it, there's graphic footage that came out on the mall shooting saturday that shows the impact of what an ar-15 does to a human body, particularly a child's body. we are seeing, as we did after parkland, there seems to be more of a national conversation about guns, some political momentum here. will it turn into action? in texas, there is a surprise vote yesterday out of committee. a couple republicans voted with their democratic colleagues to pass -- this would be a legislation that would raise the

age to buy an assault style weapon from 18 to 21. it's not expected to pass in the full congress in texas because it is dominated by republicans, but it seems a step in the right direction. it crystallizes what you're getting at, republicans seem out of step with the rest of the country. the rest of the country wants some common sense measure here. they want some sort of change so americans do not have to live in fear doing the most mundane things, like going to a mall on a saturday afternoon and risk being wiped out by a white supremacist gunman. >> look at that number. mika, 14,945 people have been killed by guns in gun violence so far just this year over five months. over five months. for 20 years, we rightly reported on the deaths and the death count of american troops in afghanistan and iraq.

over 20 years, that number was one-fourth of what it is over five months. one-fourth over two decades of what it is in america, of americans being killed by americans just in the past five months. >> and the situation in texas is especially gruesome, which makes greg abbott's lack of leadership especially painful. in "the l.a. times," granderson writes about abbott. politicians talk about mental health, and it is important. in fact, we need a lot more mental health support in this country, really good quality mental health support. but this governor talks about it like it's important to him, and it's not. it's a political prop. it's a distractor. this columnist writes, to review, the governor who identified the importance of his state's mental health services later took $211 million from

them. the governor who gutted mental health care now says it is the key to preventing mass shootings. really? this is the governor that bragged that his state should be number one, and it is only number two in gun sales. this is the governor who doesn't care about mental health and definitely thinks the proliferation of guns is a good thing in his state. and he is not looking at the reality right in front of him. does he really care, katty kay, about these people getting massacred, many by weapons of war? >> yeah, i mean, decades of budget cuts in texas means there is effectively no welfare state. there is no support for people of any kind really in terms of public assistance. in health care or mental health. it has disappeared, whether it is rape victims, child abuse victims, the figures for all of these are higher in texas.

more children die from child abuse in texas than in any other state in the union because there are no social services. that's a decision by a republican legislator to cut those social services. it is very hard then to say, well, we have to see this as a mental health problem, when you haven't addressed the mental health issue. i mean, i just -- it is worth reminding people, things can be done. other countries have had mass shootings. britain in 1996, 16 5- and 6-year-olds were killed in a school shooting. end of the following year, private weapons had been banned. there hasn't been a single shooting in the united kingdom since 1996. it is possible. it's a choice you can make or a choice you cannot make to address these issues. but to blame them on mental health when you've undercut mental health resources, and other countries have mental

health problems, they just don't have gun shootings, it seems ducking the issue, to put it mildly. >> it is ducking the issue. you look at every stupid argument they make. there used to be, 20, 30 years ago, you could have a debate over guns in america. handguns, shotguns. you can have that debate, and the debate would go back and forth. it would be reasonable and rational debate on what does the second amendment mean? what phrase in the second amendment takes precedent? that's been answered. now, willie, you really can't have a meaningful debate with somebody who is in support of ar-15s and against universal background checks and are basically the 6%. and you can't do that because their arguments are so stupid. after 3 minutes, they're talking in circles. it's like the abortion debate. you can't have a debate on abortion because somebody will say, "baby killer," and they expect that to end the debate. good luck taking that to the people. you're going to lose. here, you have this debate, guns

don't kill people, people kill people. oh, really? why is it that now that we have so many more guns, so many more people are dying, right? again, britain has people. those people aren't killing people. france has people. mental health, it's the same thing. greg abbott, i'm sorry, how grotesque that he hides behind the dead bodies of little babies and says, "we need more mental health," and he guts, he guts mental health. it's all a lie. you know, if you have the mental health argument, the very people talking about mental health are the people who have been slashing mental health and social services for 50 years. then, you know, you have an argument about, you know, the old argument, "oh, take the ar-15, that's what mao did first, that's what hitler did." somebody tried that with me last year, talking about how the state will have all the power. i said, think how perverse it's gotten, buddy. think about the fact you had 200

law enforcement officers standing outside a school because one 18-year-old freak was on the inside with an ar-15. just one freak had more killing power inside the school with little children than 200 police officers on the outside who felt like they couldn't go in and save the little children because one in america, one freak who is 18 years old, who is mentally unmoored, can have more firepower than an entire police division in a small town. because of it, little children are slaughtered. that tells you how sick and twisted the debate has come. there is no debate. the 90% on universal background checks. 75% on red flag laws. majority of americans on the ar-15. they have all the arguments

because the dead bodies keep piling up because of people like greg abbott. it's not even a debate anymore. their argument is, it's my second amendment right. but it's not! it's not. there's nothing in the constitution. there is nothing in a single supreme court decision that suggests that is their right. they should actually read the constitution. they should read the second amendment. they should read heller. they should read all the cases around guns. they should read what connecticut does. they should read the ban of military style weapons and see that the supreme court has allowed that to stand as law for nearly a decade now. >> the argument that prevails is the nra's argument, that it's a slippery slope. if we give an inch on the ar-15, next, they're coming from your handguns. they're going to take away the shotgun you go hunting with, the shotgun you defend your home with. i won't speak for everyone here, but i think we respect second amendment rights for people.

you've talked about owning guns, as well. and the problem is, the ar-15 has become so almost deified and glorified. it's in christmas cards, campaign ads. some of the logos republicans run have the ar-15 in the logo of their campaign. >> ridiculous. >> giving that away is a bridge too far for so many of them. to your point about good guys with guns, there were cops, thank god, there on saturday. they were already there on a different call, but not before eight people were slaughtered because a guy just got out of his car, raised up an ar-15, and killed a 3-year-old and his parents and other young children, as well, before the cop bravely ran to the sound of gunfire and got him. but the good guy with the gun was there, but eight people died while they were shopping at a mall. >> there is, jonathan, a slippery slope. the slippery slope, though, is going in the opposite direction. even now, gun manufacturers, we heard from some yesterday, had an article in "the new

republic." even now, gun manufacturers are making deadlier and more dangerous guns. when are we going to stand up? when are the 90% going to stand up and say, "yes, there is a slippery slope, and we are with going down it. that slope is slippery because of the blood of our infants that you are killing." i mean, there is a slippery slope. it is going to keep getting worse until we stand up and vote, we stand up and raise our voices, we organize, we get out the vote, and we put in legislators, republicans, independents and democrats alike, that understand this gun madness has to stop. >> it is going to keep getting worse. even as the nra itself has been weakened, the gun has become so fabric and intrinsic to the identity of so many on the right, the state of the pins, the state of the union, it is the campaign ads as willie said, it is part of who that fringe right, it is part of who they think they are and need to be. the hope here is that that is a

shrinking percentage of the population. they still wield a lot of influence right now and a lot of statehouses, right now in the house of representatives. the thought is, hopefully, over time, that will shrink. until then, more children will die. >> all right. we'll continue this conversation. ahead on "morning joe," the latest in the civil rape case against donald trump, as a jury is set to begin deliberations today. plus, more legal trouble for the former president as the judge overseeing his hush money case puts new restrictions on what trump can post on social media. also ahead, the biden administration's new plan to compensate passengers for flight delays and cancellations. and joe's full interview with democratic senator john fetterman of pennsylvania. he explains how what most would think was his happiest day in politics turned out to be his darkest. and how he fought his way back. that powerful interview is

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now, l.a. has a 3-1 lead in the series as the teams head back to san francisco for game five tomorrow night. lakers could go to the western conference finals for all the problems they've had this year. >> so, willie, i don't, much so my son's chagrin, calls me every day and said, "did you see golden state?" i haven't watched the nba in a long time. i love college basketball. i just don't want the nba. they walk three feet down the court, throw an 80 foot shot and it swishes. all that said, it isknow lemire me. it is great to see show time back in l.a. >> no. >> great to see the lakers winning games again. >> no. >> come on, man. >> jack nicholson was there. >> clint eastwood will show up if these guys keep winning. l.a. comes to life, seriously. i'm looking through -- what's

the paper of record first? >> "new york post." >> first, front page, "codger dodger." takes no questions, leaves press seats empty. that's not why i'm showing this. let's show what they have. oh, pictures of women and babies. it must be spring. >> or every other day. >> or every other day, "new york post." "a hole lotta trouble. >>" more than hunter biden's laptop, "the new york post" was invented to talk about the problems of the new york jets, the new york mets, and the new york knicks. >> yes. >> i mean, they're like, you know -- this is egg in their beer right now. they're happy people. >> it's when they shine. "the daily news," as well. jimmy 2-times, talking about butler.

the knicks are on the brink of elimination. the heat never trailed the knicks in a 101-109 win last night. miami takes a 3-1 series lead to madison square garden for game five tomorrow. richard haass is here with us, the president, of course, of the council on foreign relations. i watched with my son, a knicks fan. julius randle, the knicks star said, they wanted it more. not what you want to hear down the stretch. >> outhustled. >> played harder, played better, the heat did. >> absolutely. offensive rebound. the knicks can't hit a three-point shot. the differenc -- i mean, golden state, down 3-1. with steph curry, i feel they have a shot at it. i do not feel that about the knicks, and it makes me sad. >> i'm dead serious about this, the owner, dolan? >> dolan. >> is he the dan snider of new york? this is what i don't understand, the knicks, they still make more

money than almost any sport in the world. >> yeah, number two or three. >> this has been a dysfunctional organization. >> 50 years. >> for 50 years. i mean by dysfunctional, i mean really dysfunctional. the fans have been suffering too long here. how does something stay this bad for so long? can you imagine a great knicks team? madison square garden would be lit up every night. it'd be the greatest show on earth. it really would. >> it's been 50 years since the last title, 1973. new york knicks, they had good teams when i was coming up in high school and college. >> richard nixon was president. >> yeah. >> it's a tough day. >> oh. >> think about the fact that the biggest free agents, whenever they come up, whether it's lebron or k.d. or whoever it is, they don't want to go play for the knicks. >> giannis will be the next one. >> they have a chance to come to the mecca, to the heart of new york city, the branding, the

marketing, all the opportunities, all the money that comes with that. >> the money they could make if they come to new york. they know it's a dead -- it's a cul-de-sac. >> they don't come to new york. we have jalen brunson, who has been great this year, our big free agent signing. the biggest of the big names won't come to new york city, won't come to the garden. they'll go to brooklyn, k.d. did that, but they won't come to the garden. what does that tell ya? >> how are the celtics doing? >> they're 2-2 in their series against philadelphia. >> who do -- philadelphia. >> it's a fun throwback series. it's been a good series. >> how is moses malone doing. >> yeah, malone will be there. dr. malone. >> the chief is still holding his own. >> might still be playing. >> nearly 50. >> i have to tell you something, the sixers, old school. first of all, dr. j. ah, kids that never saw dr. j. fly through the air, especially with those aba red, white and blue basketballs, that was,

like, hendricks, the beatles and elvis combined for basketball. that was, man, crazy. >> caldwell professor. >> i love the sixers, especially when they were beating the celtics. >> that didn't happen very often, i'll just point that out. yeah, the substitute, too, they lost the heartbreaker at the buzzer on sunday when they could have seized control of the series. i mean, celtics/lakers final is on the horizon. we've had a few of those, obviously, over the years. especially throw lebron in the mix now with his own history against the celtics, that would be something. you have to get by philly first. >> tell me, does the garden floor still sweat? >> they finally fixed that. it's the ice underneath from the bruins games. >> like in 1997. >> yeah, couple weeks ago. the bruins got eliminated, so that took care of that problem. >> right. >> mika, we're just going to do a little support group meeting

here. >> okay. >> i want everybody to just say, "i am worthy. my baseball team is worthy. it is a marathon, not a sprint." can you say that, richard? >> it's tough to say this morning, joe. >> tough to say? >> yeah. >> let me tell you something, i say to this to willie all the time, baseball season is a marathon, my friend. the yankees will be back. win somewhere between 11, 110 games. >> getting harder. we're digging ourselves into quite the hole. >> you're getting injured again. >> everybody is hurt. >> yeah. >> that was the yankees except for last year. it was a weird year. you know, judge, god bless him, we love him, he always gets hurt, and yankees always get hurt. >> they have an unusual -- i mean, they always have injuries, but this is unusual. now, we're almost a quarter of the way through the season. this isn't early days. ten games out. you have to say, the division is outrageously good. every team in the division has a winning record. every team has a positive run

differential. they score more than they gave up. the rays. how about the orioles? >> so exciting. >> the jays are hot, sox are hot. it's tough. >> look at this division. >> yeah. >> we usually have no excuse for just showing the a.l. east. this year is different. the red sox, at least before their loss against the phillies a couple days ago, the red sox would have been in first place in four of the six divisions. >> amazing. >> in baseball. those are five of the best eight teams in baseball. >> it's brutal. that's why the climb out of last place is going to be hard. nobody going to give up much at the top. >> six-run lead the other day over the rays, and they lost game. >> can't afford that. >> the oakland a's helped us get better last night. >> by the way, watch their announcer. holy cow. >> we don't play what we said on the air. >> oh, did you miss that? >> tell me off the air. >> a's announcer has been suspended for something he said. >> no, no. >> he's not coming back.

>> the other thing -- >> won't be making the trip to new york. >> the schedule change this year, you play fewer games against your division foes than you used to, six fewer per team. that'll help the a.l. east stay with the records. >> yeah. >> there's only so many playoff spots. >> 3-16 against the jays last year. i mean, we're playing teams from other divisions. >> you have to be happy, though. what a pleasant surprise the sox have been. >> everybody is happy but mike barnicle. he's a grump. he says how horrible it is. you happy, mike? no, they're not hitting the cut-off. >> he's managing expectations. i think he is worried it might go well, which is an odd feeling for red sox fans. >> i think he is more for are i worried that haim bloom may have put together a good team. nobody in red sox nation wants to admit that. it is a fascinating team. >> i should say, though, remember, you mentioned the oakland a's. blue. as a kid, i loved how you turned

all the way back, then pow. >> the a's teams were so great. i loved watching him pitch. richard, we have 30 seconds now to talk about russia and their victory day parade in the midst of a collapse. i think we may go past that 30 seconds. far different victory day parade this year than even last year. i really do get the sense that this is a vladimir putin and this is a russia coming to terms with certainly defeat. a defeat, you know, compared to their expectations. right now, they're just trying to figure out a way to spin this to the public. >> that's one of several things happening, you're right. clearly, the russians are not beginning to come in the same zip code as their expectations or their initial ambitions. ukraine is going to continue to exist. it still controls 85%, 86% of its territory. secondly, ukraine is coming to terms with the fact, joe, that

they won't be able to liberate their territory militarily, crimea. it's too hard. china is beginning to come to terms, the bet they made on russia was wrong. maybe they ought to recover some of that prestige with a bit of a diplomatic role. i actually think we're beginning to see, at the risk of sounding optimistic, which is something i try not to be, i'm beginning to see some of the pieces begin to align. i would bet by late this year, we're going to see some potentially serious diplomacy. >> where does that come from, richard? is it china? if so, what power does china have to exert over vladimir putin here. >> comes from the united states and europe on one side, working with china. essentially, we would try to do something with ukraine to get them to settle in the short run for less than they want. they won't get all their territory back. we would return to china and say, "you have to lean on your friend vlad. introduce limits into your no-limits relationship." china may be interested in doing it, just for the idea that this is part of their prestige, part of their emergence on the world

stage. that's where i think it begins to happen. i'm not saying -- it's not -- it's far from anything certain, but we're just beginning to see some of the pieces. >> you know, the russians don't like the chinese any more than they like the americans. they don't like being basically a colony of china, which they are rapidly -- the longer the war goes, the weaker they get, the more they're being colonized economically and politically by china. putin can't allow this to continue. i mean, the weaker he gets, the more he's dominated and owned by china. russians have historically seen them as a threat as much as the united states. maybe more. >> yeah, and the white house is happy to use the phrase junior partner all the time when describing russia's relationship with china. richard, maybe it's a sign of weakness, but remember when the kremlin got attacked? nothing has happened. nothing has happened. what does that tell you? does that tell you -- does that potentially rule against a false flag operation, because russia

would use it as provocation, or maybe russia can't escalate further. >> well -- >> even if it was a pro-ukraine group. >> one, it was the narrative at home, we're the victim, and since then, we've also seen some cruise missile attacks. >> a for more, yeah. >> a little more on kyiv and odesa. i think it was a pretext to doing that, but it was a nothing burger. hasn't changed anything. if putin was hoping this was a big move, clearly, it's essentially come up empty. >> katty, as you know, before world war i, there were three empires that ruled europe. all three of those empires were casualties of four-year war. it seemed impossible for the people of europe, that those empires would ever go away. here we are a couple of years into a war in ukraine. this war has changed forever how

many of us are going to look at russia. they are a third rate military power. and i look at the pictures of those old russian, you know, veterans, people who fought and won -- i mean, just this glorious war for russia. they're looking now at a country that -- and this is literal -- that even estonia does not fear. what a bitter pill this must be for all russians, especially president putin, to swallow. >> yeah, you wonder throughout history how many young men have lost their lives defending an empire that some grandiose leader still thought they could hang onto, but the writing was on the wall and they couldn't. in this case, as richard said, russia's ambitions are not even in the same zip code as the reality of what they have.

but, i mean, richard, talking about that, it's interesting what you say about the prospects for diplomacy coming up later this year. the reality with ukraine is that if they even come to some kind of border that is a border that ukraine doesn't love and russia doesn't love, chances are, that border is going to have to be protected for years and years the come. we know the united states and europe have spent a ton of money trying to give ukraine everything it needs to defend its territory. what are discussions that are taking place about the long term of this? because there are going to need to be budgets from the united states and europe for years, as far as i can see, protecting what is effectively a frozen border. >> you're absolutely right. even the optimists don't think there's going to be a formal peace pact with mutually respected borders. at best, you'll get a cease-fire defactor, maybe a non-belligerence pack. you're looking at long-term

help, probably some de facto nato guarantee. you're probably look at special economic help from the european countries. all that is going to be part of it. those conversations have begun. the interesting thing on the other side is whether the russians are beginning to prepare for it. remember pat moynihan, when he talked about what was going on in this country, he talked about defining deviancy down. i think the thing to look here is whether the russians begin to define success down. in my last meetings with russian officials, they spent almost all their time talking about the rights of russians living in ukraine. that was interesting to me. that suggested to me that just maybe, maybe i'm reading too much into this, they were beginning to say that's what putin will claim as a great success. he knows he can't get the territory back. he knows he can't eliminate ukraine. just maybe he is beginning to prepare the ground for a lesser definition of success. i don't know, but i would also just watch what the russians are saying and not saying. >> all right. richard haass, thank you so much.

as always, we appreciate it. go knicks. i say that for you. >> thank you, joe. it's heartfelt, and i appreciate it. >> yeah. >> a lot of enthusiasm. >> so excited about the knicks, just like everybody here. when is the next major golf tournament, the open? >> your golf correspondent doesn't have the calendar in front of him. i don't know. >> usually june, yeah. >> got to be soon. >> you know, that's really pathetic. you have to know this stuff. you have four tournaments to know. katty, do you know when the open is? it's in liverpool again this year, i think. >> it's in manchester on june the 32nd. >> wait a minute. >> 3:45 p.m., yeah, that's it. >> katty, about to make you our new golf correspondent, but no, it is july the 16th. >> job is open, apparently. >> royal liverpool. >> yeah.

>> i would guess then the u.s. open must be next. when is the u.s. open? >> wonderful. >> in june? >> pga will be -- >> that's early june maybe? >> feels right. >> father's day weekend, there you go. >> don't know more than that. it's in l.a. this year. >> joe. >> richard, do us a favor, brush up on the -- >> good lord. >> -- dates for the four majors, if you want this position, and also the impact on global trade of quantitative easing. if you could do those two things -- >> middle of june. >> i want to go to the british open. i don't go to golf tournaments, but i'd want to go. i want it to be 50, raining, rain going sideways, wind about 40 miles an hour. >> cucumber sandwiches. >> just like katty. katty tells us, you'll tell us what we have to do. she knows so much about her golf. mika, we'll send it back to you. i love new york city.

the comcast tower. >> if we can just pretend this segment never existed, that would be helpful. >> wow, that's harsh. coming up, the latest -- >> that hurts. i gave my all for that segment. >> it's tough. >> i left a part of myself in that segment. >> we'll go live to new hampshire ahead of donald trump's town hall event. >> pga. >> plus, a star-studded lineup of hollywood heavyweights. joe's sit-down with tyler terry and shonda rhimes. also, emilio estevez joins us in studio. we'll be right back. the maga republicans in congress are threatening to throw america into default, crashing our economy. their latest radical demand? they want to repeal investments in affordable clean energy and manufacturing that are already creating hundreds of thousands of jobs across america. their reckless demands will kill countless american jobs even jobs in their own hometowns.

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, may 9th. a beautiful shot of the white house as the sun is up over washington on this tuesday morning. ahead this hour, we have the

latest on two cases involving former president donald trump. first, an important ruling from the manhattan judge in his criminal trial. the other, his civil rape trial, where lawyers for his accuser closed out their case using donald trump's own words against him. meanwhile, an exiled member of the republican party is going after the former president. we'll show you liz cheney's new attack ad. eddie glaude jr., reverend al sharpton, katty kay still with us. joining us, the host of "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch. >> in stripes this morning. very good. >> i'm not a fan. >> remember when he wore the baby gap t-shirt, willie? >> i miss those. he wears those socially. he dresses up on the air. >> you said, "son, it's not the way to dress on television." ever since then, it's kind of just been, you know -- >> i don't know that that was me. i think it was mika who said,

"don't ever wear that on set again." usually how things go around here. >> a little tight. >> so funny, people are like, mika can -- and you're like, you read those things like they're going, "poor mika." all the guys here are like, poor mika? she runs the place. >> i was watching this morning. it's amazing, the lack of decorum when she's not here. >> it's a mess. >> it goes off the rails. i mean, it was like, guys, get to the news. >> terrible. >> where is mika? it's the anchor. >> she is. >> terrible. >> she is the anchor. she won't come down from her penthouse. >> can't blame her. it's nice up there. >> atop the comcast building. i want to read this text i got from a real smart guy. one of the smartest guys. he didn't go to school in tuscaloosa, but he is smart anyway. david remnick. award-winning everything with "the new yorker." >> very smart. >> he's really smart, isn't he, mika? >> yes, he is.

immense respect for david. >> this is what he says about the last segment that you were so critical of. the last 15 minutes on the knicks has been electrifying television. put that in a promo. >> electrifying television. as long as we're talk about sports. >> "the new yorker," electrifying. no, "the new yorker" had the best review of us, mika, at the very beginning. >> uh-oh. >> yeah. >> appallingly entertaining. >> joe. >> is that not -- >> joe? >> yes, ma'am? >> joe? >> yes. >> he is making fun of you. >> i don't think he is. he's a sports guy. >> yes, he is. that was sarcasm, and it was not electrifying, it was everything but. >> dave knows his sports. >> rev, is he making fun of me? >> he is, big time. >> i want to do five minutes the top of every -- just like regis did. put the american flag right there, and i want to do five minutes.

>> please don't. >> can we talk about regis, how great was that guy? >> the late and great. >> the late, great. i can't believe he is gone. i'm always thinking, i want to call regis and see what's up. >> incredibly kind, joe. >> nice man. >> you know best. >> sweetheart. >> talented broadcaster, great guy. yeah, top of that show, when he and kathey-lee were doing it, or with kelly, he'd talk about the meal he had, ran into tony gran ganza, and it was great. >> people were like, where did he get the idea from, what's the morning show? i said, i want all three hours to be like the first five minutes of regis' show. just people talking about what people want to talk about. regis, man, he was -- he was a trendsetter. >> he was. he made you feel like he really was into just everyday talking, doesn't have to be nothing deep. but we can only do that when mommy is not on. >> oh, my god.

oh, my god. >> when mommy is home. >> are we back to that? >> we have to watch what we're doing. >> god, chris used to call me that. hey, joe, you're not regis, though. i mean, it's a good show, but we need to move on. >> you are no jack hannity. >> sorry, just saying. >> you know, no, no. >> just took out the filet knife. >> it's a big no. >> is that your tie? come on. >> that was like the scene of "succession" the other night, just ripping it to the core. >> i didn't see the last one. i can't wait to say it. >> i can't wait. >> just one of the great lines in tv history. >> you're not serious people. >> i love you, but you're not serious people. >> you're not serious people. >> i have to say, too. >> fantastic. >> have we said this on the air, mika's conspiracy theory? >> oh. >> she doesn't think logan roy is dead. >> no, definitely not. >> they haven't shown him. it's been four episodes since he supposedly died.

they still haven't buried him. this guy ain't jewish, obviously, as was said. he's just -- they haven't buried him. >> no. >> four episodes in, they never show his body. the only person who supposedly sees it is roman roy, who says -- >> who was in cahoots with him. >> -- quit saying he is dead. quit saying he is dead. >> the one was alan rock, the brother. >> maybe he's in on it, too. they're all over. >> yeah. >> there was a little piece of his torso on the -- in the -- >> just for a second. >> -- airplane, just for a second, but that was it. >> we'll see. we'll see. i will say this, can we just say for people who haven't seen this yet? >> yes. >> i ruin it for everybody. it's just not the same show without him. it's not even close to the same show without him. >> you know what's amazing, how madison avenue just bachelorizes everything. now, he's in mcdonald's commercials. he is doing, like, six voiceovers now. come on, man, don't touch it. sometimes things are just too -- >> it's hot.

>> leave it alone. >> let him be who he is, you know. >> yeah, let him be who he is, something none of us will ever say about donald trump. he admitted in his deposition, mika, that he actually believed that what he said in the "access hollywood" tape might be right. that for millions of years, donald says, powerful men who are stars have been able to rape or sexually molest women. >> yes, i thought -- >> because they let them do it. and the fact that evangelicals aren't going, wait a second, he apologized for this in 2016, but now he's saying that maybe it's a good thing. he said, "maybe it's a good thing." >> let me tell you, that deposition, i watched the whole thing, it's stunning. i mean, not only does he admit that famous people can grab women anywhere and that it might be a good thing, but he insults the person questioning him,

calls her a disgrace and says, "you're not my type." i mean, what? who does this? >> a 77-year-old guy who has been dining out on kentucky fried chicken and big mac for years, who does donald trump think -- whose type does donald trump think he is? he's going around telling all these women, "oh, you're not my type"? seriously, look at that. just look at that. >> now, now, joe. >> he's going around telling women, "you're not my type"? >> i'm glad you said that. >> that would be like me going to the lakers and saying, you know what? you're not my type of basketball team. i'm not going to play for you guys. >> okay. >> come on. >> can we get a close-up, some shots of him golfing? >> joe. >> get the golf shots up. >> look at this. you're not my type? >> okay. >> this guy is the judge on that? >> it's a very cruel thing to say, and on many levels, it's just rude.

>> you know, it's also a joke. can we go back to that picture? that this guy is passing out judgments on people. he calls ron desantis meatball ron. you're looking at meatball don here. really, what is -- >> okay. >> again, t.j., i need a picture of him golfing. >> no, no, no, no. >> i don't -- you know, i don't judge people by their looks for a good reason. >> okay. >> right? i don't look like eddie glaude jr. if i looked like eddie glaude jr., i might pass some judgment out a little bit more. >> all right. >> anyway. >> went a little sideways here. >> we did. again, the point here is, again, who is donald trump to judge anybody, first of all? secondly, who are evangelicals to vote for a man who says that maybe it's a good thing in 2023 for stars to be able to sexually molest women? >> yup. then he mixed up a picture of his ex-wife with a picture of this woman who is accusing him of rape. just all goes around in circles.

that's how he communicates when he is lying or when he is trying to get out of something or he doesn't like the situation. talks in circles. but the jury in the donald trump civil rape trial is set to begin deliberations later this morning after hearing closing arguments yesterday. jurors must now decide if they believe e. jean carroll or the former president. nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett has the latest. >> reporter: a final chance to seal their case. lawyers for e. jean carroll and donald trump facing off in closing arguments. >> historically, that's true with stars. >> reporter: armed with the former president's deposition, carroll's attorney told the jury, mr. trump has a playbook for sexual assault. spelled out in the "access hollywood" tape where he talks about stars grabbing women as something that happens. >> unfortunately or fortunately. >> reporter: who would say fortunately, her attorney argued? he thinks stars like him can get away with it. the former advise columnist

accused trump of raping her in a department store dressing room in the '90s, which he denies. >> disgusting story, just made up. >> reporter: the attorney argues it's not a he said/she said. two friends testified carroll told them about the alleged assault at the time. playing off mr. trump's own words, the attorney suggested carroll was his type, because he mistook this photo of carroll for his ex-wife, marla maples. the former president's defense lawyer, tacopina, said, they want you to hate him enough to ignore the facts. drilling down on past media interviews, tacopina argued that carroll hasn't appeared traumatized. >> i was just there today. >> reporter: posing with a trump lookalike. while the jury heard a lot about donald trump, he never came in person, leaving an opening for carroll's attorney, who said, "we didn't even bother to show up." >> that is the focus here.

the plaintiff in this civil case, katty kay, and it is a civil case, so they're looking for a different bar here. who they believe. who they think is lying, and who they believe. >> yeah, i mean, there seems to be a lower standard of evidence in this civil case. i think the question, i mean, the issue around she's not my type, surely somebody who was not an abuser of women, the answer to that would be not, "she's not my type," but "i would never do that to my woman, whatever type of woman she was, whether my type or not. i would never do that." the implication of that answer, "she's not my type," is, "oh, well, if she was my type," what, that's okay? >> i would do it? >> his answers don't do him any favors. because the judge has allowed the "access hollywood" tape to be part of the evidence and has allowed the two women who e. jean carroll called at the time

to come forward into the courtroom, as well, and then allowed other women who also accused donald trump, of the 26 women who accused donald trump, allowed two of the women into the courtroom, the judge allowed quite a lot of evidence and allowed e. jean carroll's lawyers to build quite a case. i'm not sure donald trump did favors in the deposition. >> the "she's not my type" line is suggesting that rape is about attraction, but it's not, it's about power. meanwhile, donald trump has more trouble in new york. the judge presiding over trump's case in new york barred the former president from posting evidence on social media. in an order yesterday, the judge sided with a request from prosecutors to keep trump from sharing evidence turned over to the defense during the discovery phase of the case. the manhattan district attorney's office asked for the measure, arguing there was a high chance trump would use the evidence inappropriately.

the former president's legal team had been fighting the move, calling it a violation of his first amendment rights. trump pleaded not guilty to 34 felony counts of falsifying business records in connection with the hush money payment allegedly made to adult film star stormy daniels. neither his lawyers nor the d.a.'s office responded to requests for comments yesterday. donny, it's hard to keep all these straight. this is amy daniels and the tro trump may be in there, to go along with the civil case of char rape with e. jean carroll. >> backdrop of this, donald trump beating biden by seven points. what's wrong with this country, what's wrong with us? a guy is charged with rape. you'll see three, four indictments, two impeachments, he led an insurrection. yet, yet, republicans follow like lemmings off of a cliff. you have to start to say, and i don't want to attach this back

to the gun segment, but what's wrong with people? what is wrong? this man, they still, they still follow this charlatan, follow this animal. you throw up your hands, i don't get it. i don't get it. >> the people who are, again, the evangelical conservatives who are supporting -- the white evangelicals -- the white evangelical conservatives who are supporting donald trump are the same people that ran around shouting bible verses during bill clinton's presidency, talking about how the country was going to hell because bill clinton was of such poor moral character. now, they continue to stand behind a man, let me say it again, who said in his deposition this year, in this case, that maybe it was a good thing that stars were able to rape women. and they're voting for him. again, you know, one thing we have found is the bill always

comes due. you always have to pay the bill. dominion taught us that. the sandy hook -- who is that guy? >> alex jones. >> alex jones learned that. you look at these people that beat the hell out of cops. they learned that on january 6th. the bill always comes due. the bill will come due for a church that embraces christian nationalism and embraces a guy who says it may be a good thing that stars can rape women in 2023. >> i think that the problem we have, and it goes to your point of the evangelicals, the answer, in part, what donny is saying, is that we have no real moral poll that's standing up. if moses and pharaoh has the

same moral standards, who is going to deliver the children of israel? i think that's what's happened. the people that ought to be putting the donald trumps in check are checking off a box to vote for donald trump, no matter how outrageous he gets. there's no level that he has taken us down to that they've repudiated. so where is your moral standards? you know, one of the things that fascinated me about joe's special last night is every movement that moved this country forward were led by moral people that stood outside of what was acceptable and moved society their way. >> and, rev, by the way, evangelicals, quakers, a lot of people that were on abraham lincoln's side and actually pushing abraham lincoln to action were evangelicals. they weren't talking about emancipation 20 years from now.

they wanted abolition now. it was the christian church in the north, in new england, that was pushing lincoln and was actually ahead of lincoln. you look at segregation. a lot of jewish people, as you've talked about during the '60s, there were evangelicals out there. there were catholics. there were christians pushing the civil rights movement, as well. >> the anti-war movement. the catholic priests. it was always those that made lincoln understand to do what is right. kennedy, johnson do what is right. where are those that are coming to trump from the evangelical community saying, "do what is right"? that's what's missing. so you wonder, why are people going for this? who is telling them not to go for this? that are their moral barometers, moral leaders. >> eddie, you actually have pastors who know better, who have told me they know better, but they're afraid to speak

truth from the pulpit because they think they may lose their congregation. >> so that point actually reverses in some interesting way what rev just said, right? so we can concede we have feckless leaders. we have spineless ministers in pulpits in some places, who aren't, in some ways, engaging in that kind of moral leadership that we need. but they're also feeling pinched and pressured by everyday ordinary folk who seem to hold these views. on the one hand, we're saying that people aren't being moved by moral leadership, and on the other hand, we're saying moral leadership is absent because they're afraid of people. so the question we have to ask ourselves, and i think donny's point really gets us to this, is what does donald trump stand for? for all of these folk, why is this man, who is so clearly flawed -- and that's a generous description --

>> he is pushing back against arrogance and elitism from the coasts. he's the one that's fighting for them. they feel we have been run over and ignored and mocked and ridiculed and forgotten for 50 years. here's a guy they can't beat. he's going to go there, and he is going to raise hell. he is going to do what we need. he's going to -- you know, it's like the first time in 50 years -- it's wrestling. their wrestler goes into the ring and slays the bad guy, slays the arrogant people in the media, the arrogant people on campuses, the arrogant people that have looked down their noses at them, mocked them and ridiculed them for 50 years. that's what he represents to them. >> so is that 40% of the country? >> oh, my god, that's at least 40% of the country, yeah. at least 43%, 44% of the country.

>> bringing it back to guns, what's it going to take with guns, is there anything, is that so deeply entrenched in people -- >> no, it's not. >> is there anything? is there anything that can happen that they'll let go of him? >> it's happening. >> no, of trump. >> oh, trump. >> what is the threshold? >> i will say this, but first of all, i want to say, there's one evangelical, if you want to read about this, andy stanley, charles' son, but incredible pastor in atlanta from everything i hear. he's written a book. we had him on the show. he's talking about, hey, we have to get out of politics. the pews are emptying out. we have to get out of politics and get back to jesus. that's his message. let me just say, this foray into politics has been devastating. >> that's right. >> for evangelicals. you look at whatever wins they've had in the political

arena. they've had those same losses in attendance. pews are emptying out. kids, younger kids who are contemptuous of donald trump, they're not going to a church that celebrates what he does. they're just not. >> right. >> by the way, it would be the same thing if the church celebrated joe biden. you don't go to church for politics. you don't. you go there for jesus. and they're not getting that. they're getting -- andy stanley says, you know, all these freakish -- andy stanley was like, man, during covid, i had people that were equating the vaccine to satan. it's just like, man, they're looking at chinese religious cult websites, and they're getting their news from that instead of the red letters of the new testament. i talked to some of these people, and, rev, they haven't

read the gospels in a really long time. >> that is why what you say is so important. because the moral leaders that are in position are trying to be politicians themselves. they wouldn't be worried about the reaction of those in the pews if they were saying, "i'm here for what is right, not here for what is popular." don't forget, martin luther king was denounced by his own denomination, and they formed another form of the baptist church. the abolitionists weren't part of the accepted church. you have to have moral leaders that stand up even against a religious institution that's playing politics over what is right. >> you know, i think this is really fascinating. really quickly, i just think all of that seems right to me, but there's something else more fundamental, it seems to me, at stake. it's not just simply arrogance,

joe. i think we're still dealing with the unresolved questions of the civil war. let me explain. the civil war was, of course, between the south and the north. it had something to do with the place, the position. what will be the place of these enslaved people in american society, right? what will we do with these black folk, right? but that question actually presupposes a prior question. who do we take ourselves to be as a nation? are we a white nation in the vain of old europe? are we a nation of principle and ideas that and that question has always been at the heart of it, and it's not resolved. so part of what we are dealing with is the arrogance, the grievance, the fear, the anxiety, what trump is bringing in tow is all of the underbelly of american society. which means that it's a deeply existential threat that we face, as we faced from the beginning. >> obviously, i think that's the bigger part of trumpism. i can just say in the church, i can only speak from my own experiences, that at first

baptist church, meridian, mississippi, first baptist church in shamably, georgia, pensacola, florida, my church in tuscaloosa, calvary baptist, race had nothing to do with any of it. it didn't. i never heard one racist thing in any of the churches. i say that, and people don't believe me. >> i'm one of those people that are doubting that. i'm being honest with you. race didn't have anything to do with it? >> race, no. i can tell ya, i was in church four days a week. you know, sunday -- actually, sunday night training union, wednesday night, thursday night bible study. i can just tell you, at least -- this was middle class new south america, somebody said a racist comment in any of those places, you know, you'd be turned on. i mean, again, there is -- just

my life, the arc of my life, i remember a kid said something racist when i was in meridian, mississippi, at i think northeast elementary school. the kid said something racist in line, called a little girl a name, and i remember a young teacher grab him by the ear and said, "what did you say?" then dragged him along the line. we were going into the cafeteria. dragged him along the line by his ear, and he was screaming the whole way. took him to the principal's office. we didn't see him for three days. this was in mississippi in 1969. >> yeah. >> in rural, mississippi, in 1969. what message do you think that sent to the 45 kids that were in line? it wasn't socially acceptable. again, now i know people doubt. i can only tell you my life. >> right. >> i can only tell you my life. i'm not saying that people across the south and across america weren't saying racist

things all the time. i'm just telling you, in the baptist churches i went to across the deep south, race wasn't a part of it. it was never part of the conversation. but i'll tell you what was, arrogance. those people in new york looking down their noses at us. those people in washington thinking they're smarter than us. those people in hollywood mocking our values. why do you think "passion of the christ" was one of the biggest movies ever? you know what everybody said? they finally made a movie about us. >> yes. >> you know what i'm saying, rev? >> yeah. >> and it's that -- that has been at the core of this. i've just got to say, though, after six years of this, seven years of this, they should know. this guy is not only an imperfect vessel for what they want to fight back, but he is hurting them. he is undermining their church. they've got other options.

it's not like it's donald trump or hillary clinton. it's donald trump or ron desantis or mike pence or nikki haley or go down the list. you have 30 different people. you don't need donald trump. so, again, no excuses six, seven years in. >> and i think that that's what he has played on. i think that's where he has to be challenged, and someone has to have the courage to stand up and challenge him. clearly, it was the institutional setup that was not addressed in certain days in terms of the race question. but i think that you're right, there was a time it was unacceptable, even in areas that blacks were not at, to do certain things. it has become acceptable now. >> can i just say, you are so right. i talked about the new south. >> right. >> that we believed we were in from 1969. you know, my first -- if you're

integrated in school your first day you walk into school, you think this is normal. >> right. >> right? that's how it was. i'm sure there's been a lot of backsliing a lot of places because i'm shocked by what people will say on tv now. >> and what they can get away with. don't forget, he started his career birtherism, he's not one of us. you have to have people stand up and say, i'm not part of the party anymore. to your point of who we are as americans, the other part of not only saying, are we slave masters, is the slaves had to say, i'm not a slave. we had to get that psychology out. when i was a kid and jesse jackson said to me, "i am somebody," i had to believe that. and i did, which is why i ended up on "morning joe" rather than, you know, rikers island. you have to have somebody change

your mind. that's where we're changed to -- challenged to change the mind. >> we're all on the shoulders of giants, the false humility, come on, that's a deep south thing there. >> flashing a little of the south there. it has to be said, again, we've talked about this for eight years now, but the idea that donald trump, who lives in a castle by the sea in florida when he's not living in a penthouse on fifth avenue. >> a golden penthouse. >> is the avatar for the fight against arrogance and coastal elitism. donald trump, who flies around in a plane. but there is, donny, as you know, there's that level of aspiration. he is a rich guy. we saw him on tv. also, that he is going to fight for us, even if he is the guy who lives in a gold-plated penthouse. >> what democrats need to understand is step away from woke. i mean, that's the tool he has. the more the democrats go down that rabbit hole, the more everything that we've been talking about comes to the surface for why people like donald trump. so the one thing that's going to kill the democrats is wokeness.

that is -- just please step away. >> i'm just going to rub. >> he's going to have a rough day on twitter today. let's lay hands on and pray for donny today. >> that's -- i mean -- >> you asked the question, what is woke? it's used so much, so meaningless. i get these newsletters. i don't care if it's from the left or the right. if the word "woke" is in there, i'm like, oh, my god, this is so 2021. college campuses are correcting. they are. you look at what berkeley has done. you look at what stanford has done. you look at what yale has done. look at what cornell has done. this heckler's veto thing, where people can scream down and shout down, they're starting to get their arms around it. everybody was always talking about the swimmer. i saw him article in "the new york post" the other day acting like the penn swimmer thatpuber

acting like that happened last week. oh, you know, no! i mean, americans have come to a decision on that. 82%, 85% of americans say if you transition after puberty and you're a man, you shouldn't compete in women's sports, right? and the international athletic association has come to that conclusion. we're getting a lot of two or three years into this, we're getting a lot of understanding across all idealogical lines on some of these issues that were supposedly so contentious. so, i mean, what does woke mean? i'm just -- >> i don't want to get in trouble here. >> it's too late. >> too late. [ laughter ] >> you have stepped out on the branch. we don't have the 7-second delay, donny. let's take this up in committee

meeting afterwards. >> yeah, i think we should. >> thank you. >> by the way, let's have a vote on that. i don't want people to say the southern guy from the southern baptist church is trying to protect donny. all in favor of taking this up in committee for donny's own held? >> i have a breakfast meeting. >> there you go. >> say hi to everybody at the st. regis. >> yeah. >> by the way -- >> this is the guy going to the st. regis, telling democrats how they can compete against, you know, the working class republicans. >> nothing wrong with 16 crumpets at st. regis. >> this thing has veered, even for me, it's veered wildly off. >> let's center. so this all factors, of course, into the 2024 presidential election. >> that is a good segue. >> now, liz cheney is out with a new political ad this morning, warning voters of the dangers of

a second trump presidency. joining us now is vaughn hillyard. tell us about the ad. >> reporter: you were talking about which republicans, which voices in leadership in folks' communities are speaking up against donald trump in 2023. the answer to that is liz cheney. over the last two years, liz cheney has cemented herself as the -- an individual in american politics who has done whatever it takes to take on donald trump. she sacrificed her congressional seat, losing to trump-backed harriet hageman. she lost in the primary in wyoming last august. she said she'd do whatever it took to make sure donald trump didn't get back to the white house. fast forward to today. new hampshire television, folks here in new hampshire will be waking up to a new tv ad from the political organization of liz cheney, in which she makes a direct effort to talk about the

risk of a donald trump presidency. we talk about the character. we have heard time and again from conversations with republican voters that, you know, they may grimace at january 6th and donald trump's character, but what liz cheney in the ad does is try to make the risk of a donald trump presidency, what it would look like. take a listen to what folks in new hampshire are waking up to today. >> donald trump is the only president in american history who has refused to guarantee the peaceful transfer of power. >> joe biden. >> he lost the election and he knew it. >> wins to become the presidents. >> he betrayed millions of americans by telling them the election was stolen. he ignored the rulings of dozens of court. rather than accept his defeat, he mobilized a mob to come to washington and march on the capitol. then he watched on television while the mob attacked law enforcement, invaded the capitol and hunted the vice president. he refused for three hours to

tell the mob to leave. there has never been a greater dereliction of duty by any president. trump was warned repeatedly that his plans for january 6th were illegal. he didn't care. today, he celebrates those who attacked our capitol. donald trump has proven he is unfit for office. donald trump is a risk america can never take again. >> reporter: what's notable in that ad is that you never see liz cheney. it is clearly an effort by her and her political organization to undercut donald trump's candidacy. there are other republicans at play. you'll go back to last year, liz cheney, she put out a $500,000 ad in arizona, taking on kari lake and finchum. both candidates narrowly lost the key races. talking with aides to liz cheney, she intends to continue to be a part of what she says is this battle. she is teaching a class at the university of virginia. she's also releasing a memoir in

november. to note, she is not a presidential candidate as of yet, but at this point in time, she's not ruled out a potential bid of her own. >> fascinating. nbc's vaughn hillyard in manchester, new hampshire. thanks so much. donny, what do you make of the ad? does it reach people who need to be reached on this question, or has everyone made up their mind about donald trump. >> i'll take the ad one step further. looking for the ad that's the mourning in america. beyond january 6th, what this country will look like with a donald trump presidency. the dystopia that he says exists now, paint the picture of what streets will look like, what freedom will look like with donald trump as president. i'm going to cut an ad at some point called "nighttime in america" to show what country would look like.

>> thank you. >> i thought there would be a punch-back. >> i don't, you have to go to the st. regis and eat your eggs benedict. you'll talk about how we can be saved. >> i do my best. >> donny will be back after his tea and crumpets in the fourth hour with "brand up, brand down." >> quick breakfast. >> it is. >> you can go workout, go to brooklyn and see your friends, then come back and we'll still be on the air. >> donny doesn't go to brooklyn. >> donny doesn't do tunnels or bridges. he stays in the city. >> okay. >> he gets lifted up by helicopter. flies over, looks down. he is a guy to talk about how to connect with the working class, just like donald trump. thank you for being here and helping us. >> i love you, too. >> thank you, donny. still ahead on "morning joe," we continue to follow the latest out of allen, texas, following saturday's mass shooting at an outlet mall. what we are learning this morning about the shooter's

ideology and the eight victims. plus, the latest on the looming debt crisis as president biden plans to meet with top congressional leaders at the white house today. first, joe's exclusive interview with hollywood mogul tyler perry. what he's saying about once living through a period of homelessness, now leading a billion-dollar media empire. talk about that. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. my asthma felt anything but normal. a blood test helped show my asthma is driven by eosinophils, which nucala helps reduce. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue.

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♪♪ am i supposed to talk over stevie? it's hard to talk over stevie. >> it's disrespectful. >> it is. okay. there are few names in the media industry as well-known as tyler perry. in fact, you look at the "forbes" list of top

entertainers this year, there's one billionaire on that list. he is a guy who was homeless about 25 years ago and lived in a little car, which that's tough enough. but if you're, like, 6'6", even tougher. i recently caught up with the media mogul at his massive studio campus in atlanta, georgia. >> this place is incredible. reverend al told me about it, told me about what an extraordinary community you built here. i saw on instagram, what was it, a geo -- >> geo metro. >> that you lived in. you were homeless when you came to atlanta. how do you process that, that you go from that to where we are right now. >> very gradually, you know? the time it took to get from there to here was all of 20 something years, but the process of it was so important. i talk to a lot of people up and kming, trying to get things

going, and i'm like, enjoy the process. it's hard to say enjoy the process when you're sleeping in your car, but having an understanding of if you have a goal and you're trying to reach the goal, there's a buy-in. i've looked at it as a buy-in. >> you open the "forbes" top entertainers, and tyler perry, the same guy who lived in the geo metro, the only billionaire on the list. i would guess hollywood is paying attention now in a big way. because you didn't play by the rules. >> yeah, it was out of necessity. it was out of an understanding that when i got to hollywood, it was a much different place than it is now. everybody is talking diversity, diversity. well, listen, yeah, i was the king of diversity before that thing even became a thing. i'll tell you what happened, and i think this is when i started to get acknowledged, honestly, was the tragedy of george floyd.

after that, i have honored with the humanitarian award, at the emmys. it wasn't until people saw the horror of that, to have people understand what the fight has been and acknowledge it is really great. i was very comfortable being hit. let them underestimate you. my first deal, "diary of a black woman" with lionsgate. >> a wire hanger! >> this is so great. they paid for half and didn't believe it would work, so they sold the other half to b.e.t., which is a crazy full circle moment right now. so to have this, to go into the room and make a deal saying, "i have to have ownership," they were like, okay, this isn't going to do anything. opened to $50 million. they were like, wait, what? ♪♪ >> i do solemnly swear i will faithfully execute the office of the president of the united

states, so help me god. >> so you shoot "the oval" here. how many episodes so far? >> i think we're approaching 120 or just passed 120. >> wow. >> yeah, it's been a good run, a really, really good run. i have to show you the oval office in the east room. >> okay. >> "black panther" was shot here. >> really? >> a lot of it, the costumes, wardrobes. >> oh, my gosh. >> all those stages are always booked, three years. >> three years ahead of time? >> yeah. >> you've been to the oval office for sure. >> i have. i have. this is -- yeah, this is perfect. >> pretty close? >> when i set out to help someone, it is my intention to do just that. i'm not trying to do anything other than meet somebody at their humanity. >> the academy award speech, you talked about how we need to start talking to each other

again. that would not just be politically but also people of different faiths. >> you know, as i think about that and i look at what's happening in the world, you couple the gun problem we have in this country. i'm a gun owner. >> i'm a gun owner, too. but like most gun owners, it's too extreme, isn't it? >> too extreme. regulations are not a bad thing, right? i think part of why the gun violence has gotten so bad over the last few years is because of what we're being fed through the internet. along with just the access to ar-15s and anything in that vain. so i'm worried for my 8-year-old, for these things that are not being regulated, not being talked about, not being fixed by the people that we're putting in office. >> when i built my studio, i built it in one of the poorest black neighborhoods in atlanta, so the young black kids can see a black man did that, and they can do it, too.

♪♪ >> this is a famous house, "madea's" house, one of my most famous characters. >> i have to go to the liquor store to get mine. >> i'm going to show you the historic district. this is built in the 1800s. slaves actually built a lot of these buildings that we're about to see. >> oh, my gosh. >> i understand the history. i understand what i've been given stewardship over, so i've done my best to try and honor it and make sure all of these historic buildings remain just as they were. >> how many acres?so, how many ? >> 330 acres. >> 330. >> i just bought 39 more other acres on the other side. the amount of money they would spend on those sets, putting them down, i have always thought building permanently. >> makes sen.

>> refurbish and rebuild. that's why i built the white house. >> we've talked about all the incredible things that have happened over if past 20, 30 years. for somebody who's down right now, somebody who's been beaten up, somebody who's lost their job, they don't think they can get out of bed and get moving and keep pursuing that dream, can you give them some hope? can you talk about a particularly low point for you where you pulled yourself out of bed and you said i'm going to just put one foot in front of the other? >> you just gave answer, one foot in front of the other. i remember i went by this hotel a couple years ago, i would go by every now and then, pay by the week hotels, drug addicts. i had been in one of those places and i wanted to die. i didn't want to get out of bed. it was freezing.

everybody would start their old cars in the morning. there was a crack under the door just this wide. i prayed the fumes would come in -- >> you wanted to die. >> it was too much. the pain was too much. what i'd been through was too much. i'm homeless. i don't have food to eat. i'm just done. and in that moment as i'm sitting there praying in tears, everybody warming the cars up, all the cars drive away almost simultaneously. it's lit moments like that that, okay, i have to get up and go to work today. moments like that where it would be you're okay. i would say to anybody, just look for the little things that encourage you, even if you don't see anything, the little, small things that keep you going. so for every little thing that somebody did i was able to make a little step. and each step was forward. and to be here on this side, what i say to anybody, if the

pain is the buy-in, what are you paying for? had i stopped then, died then, given up, i would have missed the best part of my life. i would have missed being able to help thousands of people see their dreams come true. so my hope for anyone who knows, like you know it, you know it in your soul, there's something, no path, nothing makes sense, you don't know how to get there, but you know for sure something's out there, my hope is one little step at a time, keep going. >> incredible man, incredible story. rev, you told me something last night i had no idea about. he's all been an outsider among the hollywood elite, but you told me last night he was even an outsider in the black community among a lot of leaders. >> a lot of the leaders, a lot of the elite looked down on his productions. he would go to the theaters and do his productions and that was not something that they would

support. and he came through to where now all of them were trying to get next to tyler perry. i think sometimes we don't talk enough about how within groups, within silos there are different classes. and the reason tyler perry is such a transformative figure and gives such hope is he broke through the class and the race systems that held him down to prove to kids that were even doubted in their own communities that you can emerge even if you don't have the pedigree and the lineage. it doesn't matter if you do one step at a time and believe in yourself. that's why tyler perry means so much to so many. >> his own rise is extraordinary, as joe pointed out in the interview, but now what he does to help other people rise, that's his life's work. he makes automatic the movies, but he employs so many people on that campus, he puts young actors who might not get an

opportunity elsewhere in his stuff, he's using his success and platforms to lift people up. >> i was listening to the interyou, and i thought of jordan neely. you remember that moment he described where he said he felt like he was hungry, he was homeless, he didn't want to live, and you can imagine him crying out and he said if he had given into his pain at that moment he would not enjoy the rest of his life. i was thinking about what would it mean for neely or someone like neely who's in that moment to hear that story, to have someone support him to do this stuff. and so there's a sense in which tyler perry has lived through those darkest hours, come through on the other side of it, now trying to lift up folk. and his story is that what happens when we, right, give people a chance to become who they're called to be. if they can have that opportunity. look what results. >> it's just an incredible story. >> really inspiring. yeah. >> it is. it's inspiring. we should have, like, a new joe goes on the road.

your interviews are amazing. my compliment of the day. >> she's being nice to me. >> it's good when you go on the road. >> you can't come up to the penthouse suite, lemire. why not go out on the road. >> see you when you get back. >> you need to work. let's do something on location, just you. >> i can't ever retire, right? you don't want me around your penthouse apartment. don't retire. >> penthouse. okay. coming up, president biden weighs in on the writers' strike. his comments come as his administration is calling for compensation for travelers who have their flights delayed or canceled. there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month.

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"morning joe." >> can you imagine, like, waking up every morning there? what a view mika has. again, i don't know about the satellite dish, but, you know, whenever she sees something, she moves it a little west. >> some people have the red zone package. mika gets game to game and turns it in that direction and you can watch the end of that game. >> i've never been invited up there. i wonder what the view is like. >> i haven't either. sometimes she lets jack go up to move the satellite dish. >> right. >> jack, i want to see upstairs and downstairs. miss mika. >> funny with the two of you in new york city saying all of this. >> she's up there. >> are you thereupon? straight up. 70th floor. >> 50 years of this. 50 years. see the cup? >> it gets easier every day, babe. >> no. wow. just -- wow. >> look at that.

the sun -- i want some cat stevens. "morning is broken." look at that. >> you can see full five boroughs in new jersey from that view. i wouldn't know, but i'm told. >> eddie, how you doing today? >> it's dean's day at princeton. i'm excited. >> that's interesting because alabama would have rib steak. hoity-toity. we go to dreamland ribs and, you know, talk about the football team. dean's day. what happens? >> all the ribbon work is do, end of the semester. students are in the homestretch, crossing the tape. >> one thing. >> yes, sir. >> what's a dean? >> what's a dean? the dean of the college. it's not a restaurant. >> like a football coach at alabama. >> yeah. >> kind of. >> i think. >> we'd have coach's day. >> right after ribs day.

>> i'm telling you, it was great stuff. it's amazing, college. have you ever been to tuscaloosa, rev? >> i have been. >> i joke about it a lot. they're embarrassed they let me in. but, you know, it's an incredible place. >> well, i've read about it. i know you and tuscaloosa. i always tell everybody. >> oh, thank god. >> after, you know, i do my morning work, just got back downstairs, because i go upstairs. mika lets me -- >> mika lets you use the gym? >> only for a minute. i get on the balcony and say, "let there be light." that's my job every morning. >> jonathan lemire, have you been invited up there too? i never go up there. >> not once. i spend a lot of time in this building but i've never been up either. it does look really nice. >> i have to do the "let there be light" for mika every morning. >> mika, the tom floor.

and katty kay, 4:00, they hear about it, she's coming over, we can't do the conference call at 4:00 but we're having tea and crumpets every day. amazing. >> and the cream and the scones. that takes 45 minutes. then it's cucumber sandwiches time. i mean, there's a lot to do in an afternoon. >> for catty, it's actually noon. >> that's a lot. tuscaloosa, we have ribs and white bread. >> no cucumber sandwiches? >> no. you go to dreamland and say they sides and it's just white bread. >> so, katty, i haven't talked to you since the coronation. how did king charles do? any fights break out with the family in the middle of, like, trafalgar square? everything go okay there? >> well, he got a crown on his head, so that's a plus.

>> that's good. >> that was the bottom line. that was the gist of it. there was a little bit of a hitch. it didn't to all go as smoothly as we had planned. for some reason, kate and william turned up late. it's a coronation. how do you turn up late? >> come on. >> i know. right? >> seriously? >> seriously. and the order of service, the prince and princess of wales, kate and william, are meant to be sitting there in their seats when the king comes up the alley in his procession. no kate and william. we don't know what happened. the king gets there in his carriage and has to sit there for a few minutes. >> power move. let me tell you, it is a power move. but he could be dead in a few year, i could be king. i don't think you should say that on your dad's coronation. that's what he was saying. >> it was such a male response. >> they have three small children. one of the children, something

went wrong, don't you think, mika? >> oh, yes. >> william having a hissy fit. every parent's nightmare. >> mika is saying oh, did charles, like, did he have a hissy fit? charles is really angry at everything, kind of like the pen thing. and i said, listen, if i'm being coronated king and any one of my kids are late, i'm not going to be happy. like, the fact charles stayed in his cinderella -- i would have broken out and i'd be going up and down with the phone call, where are you? come on, man. so, there he is. yeah. speaking of tuscaloosa. all right. yeah. so, anyway, but anyway, it's very interesting. i'm going to leave it at this. i looked right before the coronation about their approval

ratings, these royals. and they all seem to be doing pretty well. charles is going up. camilla still having some problems. but everybody else going up. but i will tell you, i don't think it's a case in america, but in britain, man, prince harry and meghan at the bottom with andrew, huh, katty? >> yeah. there's no feelings for prince harry and the book he wrote and the tell-all. if you have problems with the family, you keep them to yourself. you do not need to make money by doing a tell-all. looking at these pictures, having flown back to washington, and i do kind of see how -- >> no, it's great. this is great. >> great stuff. >> i love it, but i'm looking and thinking -- >> no, it's awesome. come on. >> exactly.

>> it's great stuff. we love it. looking forward to william in a few years. >> exactly. long live the king. >> long live the king. yeah. so, yeah, that's the problem. he talked -- don't talk out of school. you don't talk about your family. don't talk about, like, your mom and, like, you know, what her favorite lotion was. it's just all -- come on, what's he doing? >> whatever the opposite of a royal watcher is, that's me so i might not be the best here. i've v share katty's view, and the shot with the hats or whatever, the crowns, it's silly. it is and we're still doing it. harry was given a third-row seat, not invited to the afterparty or whatever the thing after the thing was called and just got on the plane and went back home. tough love over there. >> third-row seat is pretty good. that's better than bob uecker and i got. is uecker still alive?

>> still calls games. >> such a hero. >> hall of famer. >> best seats in the house, mika. >> i have no control over this situation. yes. >> you will notice that, unlike harry, i've written no tell-all books about you or your penthouse apartment or the rev coming up, working out up there, and everybody else. >> okay. >> i've kept it all to myself. she just leaves me in a shack down by the river. >> why don't you stay right there. ahead, an update on donald trump's civil rape trial as the case goes to the jury for deliberations in just a few hours. and we'll take a look at a much more muted victory day celebration in moscow today and what it says about the popularity of vladimir putin's invasion of ukraine. first, we are learning new information this morning into the investigation into saturday's mass shooting at an

outlet mall near dallas that left eight people dead and several others injured. social media postings reveal the gunman shared extremist beliefs online with rants against jews, women, and racial minorminoriti. one post included a series of shirtless pictures with visible white power tattoos including ss lightning bolts and a swastika. and in the weeks leading up to the attack, he posted more than two dozen voe v photos of the allen premium outlet where the shooting took place. he had a brief stint in the army. he entered military service in june of 2008 but was kicked out three months later for a physical or mental condition. he did not complete initial entry training. right now, investigators are analyzing evidence found from his family's home and a hotel. a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation tells nbc news it may take weeks

or even months for investigators to gain a more complete picture of the gunman's ideology. at this point, he has no criminal record that authorities are aware of. willie? let's go live to allen, texas, where we find nbc news correspondent maggie vespa. good morning. we talked about the shooter in this case, in this horrific case, another in this country. focus on the victims as well, some 3 years old. >> reporter: young children from two north texas families among the victims. that's why the memorial is so large and growing. we had a vigil last night. there was somebody directing traffic and stopping people and said are you here to pay your respects? if they said no, he said you can't come in here. that's what the parking lot is being used for. motive is a huge question.

those haunting social media posts that have come to light in the last 24 hours shedding a lot of light, investigators say, on what may have been behind this. obviously, the shooter was killed in a shoot-out with police, so we have an update on that officer in a minute. but a sewn yor law enforcement official telling nbc news those posts are a key part of this investigation, including another post that seems to show a receipt for $3,200 worth of firearms and ammo and weapons, again, also part of the investigation at this point. also, obviously turning to politics, that's also a backdrop right now days after this horrific shooting here on saturday. texas republicans, including senator ted cruz and governor greg abbott saying that guns are not the problem, pointing to mental health, getting some of the same rhetoric we're used to hearing in times like these and facing the familiar backlash we're used to seeing in times like these. given all that, we want to zero in on the victims that everybody

is honoring here day after day. we have some new names as of last night. 3-year-old james cho, the youngest victim. he was killed along with his parents cindy and q cho. his 6-year-old brother, women yam, just turned 6, is the only survivor of his family. the mendoza family lost daniella, 8-year-old sophia, their mother is in critical condition from the shooting. also among the victims, a 32-year-old, a 23-year-old security guard at the mall, christian lacour. everyone is doing their best to name them. and that police officer who authorities say killed the shooter here at the mall in that shoot-out, he was wounded, being hailed as hero this morning, and an attorney saying the officer is, quote, doing well, adding he is a brave servant with a gentle

heart. obviously all of our heart go out to that officer, to his family, and to the families of all those who were killed in america's latest mass shooting. guys, back to you. >> at a outlet shopping mall on a saturday afternoon. maggie vespa, thanks so much. let's put that picture up again, joe. this is a family that was out for a day of shopping at an outlet mall. all three of the people in that photograph are dead for the crime of walk around a mall. their 6-year-old son, as maggie pointed out, william, survived, so now he'll grow up without his parents, without his sibling because they went to a mall on saturday. >> willie, this tragedy is repeated every day, every day across america, whether we report it or not because, you know, we don't have the time in a four-hour show to report all the killings that take place in america. you look at the numbers. greg abbott, it's absolutely disgusting that greg abbott puts up tweets saying that texas is

only number two in the states that have purchased new guns. he said he's ashamed, they need to be number one. he changes law after law after law. that makings it easier for people that are unqualified, untrained, emotionally on board and they get guns, untrained. he says i'm embarrassed. this is back in 2015. texas number two in the nation for new gun purchases behind california. let's pick up the pace, texans. of course he wants the nra to know he's being a good boy. he wants the nra to know he's a faithful servant, that he's going to care more about the gun lobby than children that get killed in his own state. by the way, this is about guns. the whole it's not guns that kill people, it's people that kill -- really? let's look at the last ten years. as guns have continued to skyrocket in the past ten years, as gun laws have become

stupider, more dangerous, and more deadly, look at firearm mortality in the state of texas. it has skyrocketed. it keeps going up. the same thing has been happening in america since sandy hook. and these politicians, they know it. they know it. you look at the mass -- here's the gun deaths since 2014. again, this is not an accident, this is not like the tides coming in and going out, like it's nothing we can stop. this is an american crisis. it's not a british crisis. this doesn't happen in britain. it's not a crisis in france or australia. this is an american crisis, and one of our own choosings. rev, the numbers just keep skyrocketing and they keep saying the same stupid thing.

after texas churches are shot up, after texas malls are shot up, after texas schools are shot up, after little children are gunned down in uvalde. i'm sorry, heartless, soulless. they are heartless, soul lels politicians who continue to let these kids die because they don't want to cross an nra that is just not as powerful as it used to be. >> they don't want to cross an nra, they don't want to stand up to the gun manufacturers. when you say it is not the guns, it's the people, people could not kill without the gun. >> and they get people, by the way, in great britain, we could ask katty, but they have people in great britain -- >> we have more guns. >> they also don't have laws that allow people to walk in and get a gun and carry it around without any training or without a permit. i always talk about it, guns. guess what else? i got training.

i got a permit. went through the process. practiced at the range. they have idiots now -- you talk to gun shop owners, and they will go, like, well, tell me, this guy just walked in, he's an idiot. i had to sell him the gun. you know, passed this cursory check. again, greg abbott and texas legislators are killing little children every day because they won't do what is required to keep them safe in schools, to keep them safe in churches, to keep them safe in synagogues and country music concerts. >> it is an unbelievable crisis that we have self-inflicted so that others can make crazy money selling us guns and just keep doing it. and no one is standing up. there must be a movement across all lines to stop this. that's the only way it's going to happen. >> has to be. >> and governor abbott

immediately tries to short circuit any gun conversation saying this shooting happens or other in this state, we have to do something about mental health in this country. and we all agree we do. the other element is guns he doesn't want to factor into it. the shooting in nashville, members of the delegation, republicans in tennessee in congress saying there's nothing we can do about this. we're not doing anything here. sorry, it's the price of freedom. i don't think joe thinks or anyone here thinks that most of the country agrees with that. >> right. >> no one wants the price of the freedom to be that 3-year-old kid at a mall or a 9-year-old kid at a christian school in nashville. >> the sad irony is the country refuses to protect our babies and expects those same children to grow up and save the country. it's just terrible at a certain level. it's a corruption of the soul. we talk about fighting for the soul of america, this reality reflects the kind of corruption of the soul for me. it seems to me -- i'm going to

echo rev -- we can talk about the nra, we can talk about the gun manufacturers, we can talk about republicans. we have to fight for a world where this is not happening, right, because i have a sneaking suspicion, joe, that data we just showed, that mass murders are actually correlated with the availability of the ar-15. >> right. >> of assault weapons. and so it seems to me that there could be a general agreement among all americans that that weapon should not be in the hands of americans, that it shouldn't be on our streets. so, if we can't make that decision, it's not just simply about republicans and the nra and the -- it's about us. if we can't fight to get those weapons off our streets so we can protect our babies. >> you talk to most sheriffs, especially cops in big cities, you talk to most to people in the military, they don't want americans, especially without training, to be running around with ar-15s.

those are weapons that were designed for war. in case somebody is tuning in for the first time, specifically, a 1981 "atlantic" article by james fallow, it feels designed to be lighter, smaller caliber, easier to run through the jungle ls of vietnam, easier to kill more vietnamese than the heavy weapons that were being used at the time. you look, though, at the numbers here, jonathan, and i do believe there's going to be a change in america, i do believe it's coming, just like it has on abortion, in a way that people have just had enough. i mean, you look at that, what we're showing you right there, ar-15 used in the deadliest mass shootings. you know why? because the ar-15 is not designed for hunting. the ar-15 is not designed to protect our house. the ar-15 is designed to kill people and specifically to kill

lots of people in warfare. and this is what happens in america. and this is a choice that greg abbott and our politicians make every day. still ahead on "morning joe," joe's full interview with democratic senator john fetterman of pennsylvania. he explains how what most would think was his happiest day in politics turned out to be his darkest. and how he fought his way back. that powerful interview is straight ahead. from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. make sure you ask your doctor

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john fetterman returned to capitol hill after being treated for clinical depression. he suffered a stroke nearly one year ago, four days before the primary election. he's been very open about his

struggles with his recover. you've said that your toughest time was after you got elected to the senate, which most people would think, hey, that should have been one of the great moments of his life. but that's when your world started to collapse. >> that's what's so insidious about depression. depression, you know, you might win and it still feels like you lose. our family and i went through this grueling campaign and now you won and now, like, what's wrong with us or is it not enough for us? why do you feel this way? i tried to explain to them, you know, it's different. just because, you know, winning doesn't mean it still didn't hurt still. i laid there and watched this hurt my own children because they were confused because they thought just because you won, you know, why aren't you -- you should be happy. >> can you talk about your decision to seek help, to go to

walter reed? what was sort of the triggering event for you? >> i'll never forget the decision, where it's like if i don't do something to claim my life, that this could be, you know, tragic. i was skeptical. i was kind of, like, no, no, i don't really belong here, but give it one last chance. >> now, as he is seeking help for depression, his wife tweeting, after what he's been through in the past year, there's probably no one who wanted to talk about his own health less than john. i'm proud of him for asking for help and getting the care he needs. >> you just said -- talked about being skeptical, that you could get help. could you talk about -- i think that's an attitude that men may have even more than women. men don't seek treatment as much as women do. >> this isn't a matter of who's tough or who's not. i may have the blues or a little

melancholy and i would just beg men, you know, you're not too macho, you know, it's no big deal. the only person you're really going to hurt more than anyone else is actually your family. >> did you get inspiration from people like lincoln and churchill who struggled with depression? >> yeah. >> their whole lives. and yept they thought through it and changed the world. >> i would say there's almost kind of like a nobility to it, our suffering, there's some nobility to that. so maybe something -- it toughens you up or whatever. but it didn't toughen me up. you know, in fact it nearly ruined me. and i know it put my family through a lot of pain. >> when did you start to think, hey, i may be making progress here, i may be able to put one foot in front of the other in front of the other and move forward with my life?

>> my first visit was -- my children after three weeks, and my dad had left me these little post to itself notes and my kids grabbed them up and wrote encouraging notes everywhere and just, you know, dozens of these things in my room. it became kind of like that's what sparked my idea that it's, like, there's a whole big reason to get better. me putting my kids through the scare of losing me or what's wrong, you know, really was the single biggest motivation to really take it on. and i have a lot of support. and i was ashamed, you know, that an 8-year-old boy had the kind of enthusiasm and you've got this, dad. i was the guy that should be the one cheering them on and encouraging them, but, no, it was the children that were doing all that. and they didn't hold it against me. you know, they let their love

come through. it was just that single thing that was the catalyst. >> i saw you when you first came on the hill when you were getting sworn in, and i remember thinking at the time that this is tough enough for anybody to adjust to life on the hill. i could not imagine the pain you had to be in adjusting to the challenges after your stroke, adjusting to being this big guy, this take-charge leader who suddenly had all of these new challenges coming at you so quickly, it had to be so isolating. >> it's really the truth. and then another thing that was very punishing that time, too, is there was the social media blow torch unleashed on my family as well, too, on that. unleash whatever you want to on me, but, you know, my family, i

just can't imagine anybody that would think it would be funny to make fun of children or whatever. >> i remember late in the campaign seeing one of your ads -- >> you ever got knocked down, you get back up. if anyone lives in any community that was left behind, ever got knocked down, that's what this campaign is about. >> it was one of the most powerful campaign ads i've ever seen, and you were talking about people who were forgotten, people who were struggling to get by. it showed you talking on stage, talking about your struggles, and then showed them in the audience, and there was this powerful connection. i wonder, does this draw you even closer to all those people not only in pennsylvania but across america that feel like they're isolated, they're alone,

they've been left behind by washington? >> absolutely. absolutely, joe. i will never, ever tire of wanting to pay it forward to having a gift because you can't possibly -- you can't fully appreciate being well than after realizing, you know, at a very dark place that i was there, and a lot of people it hurts. >> we are learning that senator john fetterman is now out of the hospital after being treated for clinical depression. he says depression is treatable and treatment works. >> so many people don't get quality health care treatment. what does the senate, what does the house, what does the president need to do to give more people a fighting chance with depression, with anxiety, with suicidal ideations? >> this is not a democratic issue. it isn't a republican issue. this isn't a hard right, hard

left. this was just a human issue. there's somebody living right now in a red county that desperately needs, you know, mental health, and there's a person in a blue county that needs to make -- somebody to speak to because they're thinking of harming themselves. you know, and we all need to be created -- it's a national priority. i would tell anybody watching this, i am begging you, please look for your treatment. it works. it's what saved me from -- from my anguish. coming up, my conversation with shonda reince who has created hit after hit on tv and streaming. she talks about her process as a writer and what's happening in hollywood. egas! - in this economy? what, are we rich?! ♪ ♪ are we rich? we could get a personal chef! i heard about this guy on the news that, that serves a very rare species of fish.

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compare thod their expectations. they're trying to figure out a way to spin this to the public. >> clearly the russians won't come in the same zip code as their expectations or initial ambitions. ukraine is going to continue to exist. it still controls 85%, 86% of its territory. secondly, i think ukraine is coming to terms with the fact, joe, they won't be able to liberate their territory militarily, crimea. it's just too hard. >> right. >> i think china is beginning to come to terms that the bet they made on russia was wrong, maybe they ought to try to recover some of that prestige with a bit of a diplomatic role. i think we're beginning to see, at the risk of sounding

optimistic, something i try not to be, i'm beginning to see some of the pieces begin to align. i would bet by late this year we'll see some potentially serious diplomacy. >> where does that come from, richard? is it china? if so, what power does china have to exert over vladimir putin here? >> the united states and europe alongside working with china, essentially we would try to do something with ukraine to get them to settle in the short run for less than they want. they won't get all their territory back. we would turn to china and say you have to lean on your friend, vlad, introduce some limits to your no-limits relationship. china may be interested in doing it. it's part of their prestige and emergence on the world stage. that's where i think it begins to happen. i'm not saying -- it's not -- it's far from anything certain, but we're just beginning to see some of the pieces. >> you know, russians don't like the chinese any more than they like the americans. they don't like being basically a colony of china, which they

are rapidly -- the longer this war goes, the weaker they get, the more they're being colonized economically and politically by china. so putin can't allow this to continue. the weaker he gets, the more he's dominated and owned by china. and russians have historically seen them as a threat as much as the united states, maybe more. >> yeah. and the white house is happy to use the phrase "junior partner" all the time describing russia's relationship with china. richard, maybe it's a sign of weakness, but remember when the kremlin got attacked? nothing's happened. nothing's happened. what does that tell you? does that tell you that -- does that potentially rule against a false fight operation because russia would use as provocation? or does it show you maybe russia can't escalate further even if this was carried out by some sort of pro-ukraine -- >> one was the narrative at home, the victim, and since then we've seen cruise missile attacks on kyiv, a little more on kyiv and odesa. i think it was a pretext to

doing that. it was basically a nothing burger. it hasn't changed, hasn't changed anything. putin was hoping this was some big move. clearly it's essentially -- it's come up empty. >> katty, as you know, before world war i there were three empires that ruled europe. all three of those empires were casualties of four-year war, and it seemed impossible for the people of europe that those empires would ever go away. here we are a couple of years into a war in ukraine, this war has changed forever how many of us are going to look at russia. they are a third-rate military power. and i look at the pictures of those old to russian, you know, veterans, people who fought and won leningrad, people who fought

and won -- i mean, this glorious war for russia. and they're looking now at a country that -- and this is literal -- that even estonia does not fear. what a bitter pill this must be for all russians, especially president putin to swallow. >> yeah. you wonder through history how many young men have lost their lives defending an empire that some grandiose leader thought they could hang onto but the writing was on the wall they couldn't. as richard said, in this case, russia's ambitions are not even in the same zip cold as the reality of what they have. richard, it's interesting what you say about the prospects for diplomacy coming up late this year. the reality for ukraine, if they come to some kind of border, a border that ukraine doesn't love and russia doesn't love, the chances are that border will have to be protected for years

and years to come. the we know that the united states and europe have spent a ton of money trying to give ukraine everything it needs to defend its territory. what are the discussions that are taking place about the long term of this? because there are going to need to be budgets for the united states and europe for years protecting what is effectively a frozen border. >> you're absolutely right. even the optimists don't expect there will be a formal peace pact. at best you'll get some kind of a cease-fire. the fact, though, maybe a nonbelligerency agreement, that will take time. both sides will continue to arm. i think you're right, looking at long-term military help, de facto nato guarantee, probably looking at special economic hem from the european countries. all that will be part of it. those conversations have begun. the interesting thing on the other side is whether the russians are beginning to prepare for it. remember pat moynihan talking about what was going on in this

country, daniel patrick moynihan, defining it down. the thing to look is whether the russians begin to define success down. in my last meetings with russian officials they spent almost automatic their time talking about the rights of russians living in ukraine. that was interesting to me. that suggested to me that just maybe, maybe i'm reading too much into this, that's what putin is going to claim as a great success. he knows he can't get the territory back. he knows he can't eliminate ukraine. just maybe he's beginning to prepare the ground for a lesser definition of success. i don't know, but i would also just watch what the russians are saying and not saying. coming up, one of our next guests is taking a lead role in fighting back against hate crimes. josh stynes is north carolina's attorney general and he has a plan to shut down threats of violence. hustle harder they said. achievement takes sacrifice.

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over the last two decade, shonda rhimes has absolutely dominated the tv industry from "grey's anatomy" to "how to get away with murder" to "bridgerton." she keeps making hit after hit. her latest show, "queen charlotte," is the top show on netflix. just before its premiere, i got a chance to sit down with her. so great to have you here. thanks so much. >> happy to be here. >> you walk in here, shondaland, you've become this icon, this global icon. how could you ever explain to the 10-year-old version of yourself with five siblings that this is where you were going to end up? or did you always just kind of know that you were probably not going to be an accountant? >> in a lot of ways, in my

childhood i spent all this time wanting to be a doctor, wanting to work in washington. i realized i didn't want to do them. i just wanted to research and write about them. there's something about the idea that you get to write something, the actors perform something and then you can write based on that. it's this wonderful collaborative give and take. >> i wanted to ask you how you juggle business and creative. does the business side ever get in the way of the creative side? >> what happened was, i was really lucky. i hired a bunch of people who i actually trusted to do their jobs. somebody once told me write down all the things you do in your day for work and cross off anything somebody else can do and only do the things you haven't crossed out. that really came down to writing and editing.

i have this team of amazing people who help me do all that stuff on the business side. >> you go all over the place, different genres, settings, generations, centuries. does that keep you interested in the process? >> it does. people who do one and done sort of thing, i was never that comfortable that i was successful. it took me a really long time to realize, oh, i'm successful. i was being inducted into the television academy by oprah. >> shonda rhimes, this is your time. [ applause ] >> oprah just did my introduction. that was -- i don't know. >> that was the moment. like i'm okay now. but it took a long time. i don't take things for granted. i only made things i'm excited about.

>> let me ask you how you keep the drive alive. mika has know your value and 50 over 50, you were on the list, on the cover. she always tells young women you have a long runway. usually she's focusing on people who become successful after 50. you did it on the other side of 50. i'm curious, do you think you'll be pushing yourself and going for quite some time? >> i think as long as i have ideas for stories to tell, i'll be telling stories. i can't imagine life any other way. >> you are a thorn in my side. >> i've saved lives and i've had my life saved. >> what about "grey's anatomy"? >> what was good about having it be my first television show ever was, i didn't know the rules, i

didn't know what you were supposed to do or what stories you should tell, so i just wrote what i thought was interesting. people would say, i don't think we can accomplish that, but we always would, so it was great. i can't believe we're about to enter season 20. >> you've also touched on topics before other people touched on topics. in scandal, me too before me too. remember dr. o'malley and men suffering through depression and handling mental health issues as well. >> clearly mental health is a huge issue. we're telling stories in a hospital. those things were really important. >> pardon me. >> this is my sister.

>> then of course bridgerton. you produced it. it's fascinating. bridgerton obviously breaks all the rules. it's fascinating how those rules being broken, when you approach that as a producer, how difficult was that to piece it together in a way that would flow for the viewers? >> you know, they're based on books by julia quinn, this amazing author. when i first read the books, i could picture myself in the show, in the book. if you can picture yourself in something, that feels universal enough. two, i was never going to make a show that didn't include me or somebody who looked like me. i wasn't even interested in that. the idea we came upon this thing that there's real belief queen charlotte was a woman of color and we made a story about how

she changed society and talked about all that. >> i've seen great writers talking about whether it's movie or tv, some start with a rough outline, go through the first draft. how do you do it? what's your process? >> i don't start writing until i know what i'm going to write and i don't write outlines, because i go with sort of how the story is flowing. what's really good about that is you get to really follow your instincts. sometimes i'll write five pages and think, this is completely wrong and i'll throw that out. sometimes i'll write ten pages and go this is ready to shoot. it's amazing. >> what's your process? is it when you're walking, when you're driving your car? when do you imagine these things? >> a lot of the stuff comes to

me like when i'm lying in bed or i dream something. mostly the things i think of at night, if they're sticking with me during the day, i know they're something. >> we talked about the different genres you've gone into. where would you like to go next? >> oh my gosh, i'm not totally sure, but i'm very interested in science fiction right now and how to make it accessible to my audience who maybe doesn't watch a lot of sci fi. >> at this point in your career, with all of your success, you don't really have a lot of time to explain where you want to go, right? >> that's true. but usually i'm very sure why i want to do something before i do it. >> thank you so much. good luck with "queen charlotte." >> thank you. coming up, another hollywood veteran standing by.

emilio es te vez joins the conversation. es te vez joins te conversation what are folks 60 and older up to these days? getting inspired! volunteering! playing pickleba...!

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how? and more protein to keep you moving with diabetes. how do you choose? how do you choose the ones you save? he's coming for you with everything. dom! can't save 'em all. ♪♪ cloudy day in los angeles as the sun comes up. it's 6:00 on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." joining us this hour, we have pulitzer prize winning columnist and editor of the "washington post" eugene robinson. republican strategist susan dell percio joins us. we are learning new information this morning about the investigation into saturday's mass shooting at an outlet mall near dallas that left eight

people dead and several injured. social media postings reveal the gunman shared extremist beliefs online with rants against jews, women and racial minorities. one post included a series of shirtless pictures with visible white power tattoos including ss lightning bolts and a swastika. in the weeks leading up to the attack, he posted more than two dozen photos of the allen premium outlets where the shooting took place. let's go live to allen, texas, and maggie vespa with the latest. maggie. >> reporter: those last posts you mentioned, the photos of the mall, another haunting detail from that. authorities say they believe it's very possible the shooter 33 year old mauricio garcia was monitoring this mall at its

busiest time which may have been what led him to strike it, killing eight people in a shootout with police. those haunting details on a russian social networking platform, a senior law enforcement specialist telling us they are absolutely part of this investigation into what led this latest shooter to do what he did. the aftermath includes the political debate. already we're seeing republicans here in texas including governor greg abbott and senator ted cruz go into the argument over mental health. then you have democratic colleagues saying, no, it's actually about the gun. according to authorities, a receipt showing $3200 on weapons in the days and weeks leading up to this shooting.

while that familiar debate plays out, which again we are too used to in this country, we're learning much more about the victims memorialized in this memorial behind me at the premium outlets. 3-year-old james cho is the youngest victim, killed along with his parents. his 6-year-old brother is the only surviving member of that family. he'll grow up without his parents and little brother. 8-year-old daniella and 8-year-old sofia mendosa. we're talking about three young children from two different families here in the north texas area who were killed in this shooting. the list goes on. eight people killed in this latest shooting here in texas. at the same time, we mentioned the shooter was killed in that gun battle with the police officer. overnight an attorney for that

police officer saying he is doing well and, quote, adding he's a brave servant with a gentle heart. we've seen this time and time again. this community is struggling to make sense of something that is senseless and struggling to find their place in this growing list of communities across the country that are now scarred forever by a mass attack by a lone gunman. >> maggie vespa live in allen, texas, thank you so much. such a grim report. you know, gene robinson, we talk about guns. we also, though, are looking time and again at the bigotry. it should be no surprise to us. donald trump mainstreams bigotry

starting with his campaign announcement in 2015. you have in 2017 in charlottesville, jews will not replace us. you have in 2018 trump and other republicans with the fascist, racist screed about go back to where you came from to united states members of congress. we have anti-asian bigotry mainstreamed by donald trump with racist slurs against his own cabinet members. you have governor greg abbott talking about a little 9-year-old boy being slaughtered while he stood in front of his mother trying to protect his mother who was slaughtered by an ar-15. what does governor greg abbott do? he doesn't refer to him as a little boy. he doesn't refer to the mother

as a mom. he refers to them as illegal immigrants. so we're not surprised, are we, that with one shooter after another, we're finding this mainstream anti-immigrant, anti-hispanic, anti-black, anti-asian, anti-other bigotry playing out and costing lives. their words have consequences. here the consequences are dead bodies piling up. >> yes. a new permission structure has been created, has been opened up for this kind of hatred. you see it growing and flourishing in the oxygen that it's been given by the whole sequence of events and

personalities that you just recounted. it is an awful thing that is happening in this country. of course, the other awful thing is that you have a massacre like this one at the allen mall and governor greg abbott and ted cruz immediately run to it's all about mental health. >> by the way, when they slash mental health over and over again and steal from the coffers of mental health funding in texas. >> that's right. texas is near the bottom in terms of per capita mental health spending. so, no, they don't really wand to spend any resources or even pay any attention to mental health. they just want an excuse not to talk about guns. this guy seems to have been a

neo nazi. that's an ideology. you can argue there's something wrong with him mentally, but that's not the way we deal with ideology in this country given the first amendment. how could we have stopped this? naturally, the answer is for him not to have had that ar-15 style rifle. it's for him not to have had all those other weapons. the answer is the guns. that's the constant in every one of these gun massacres, is by definition the gun. >> the goal should be to keep ar-15s, weapons of war, out of the hands of neo nazis. guns don't kill people, people kill people? again, just a friendly reminder,

they have people in great britain. there hasn't been a school shooting in great britain since 1996. we were talking earlier about how i was raised in an integrated school starting in first grade. it is hard to believe by today's standards. gene just said something, he's so right. here's the tragedy. we were making progress, but gene just said, donald trump, this republican party, the bigotry, the hatred, the anti-immigrant statements, the anti-asian statements, a republican leader mocking,

making a racist slur every time he talks about an asian american who's a cabinet member, it all adds up. new permission structure. donald trump and this republican party has provided a new permission structure. remember, i talked about first grade the kids saying the bigoted thing in the cafeteria. the teacher grabbed him by the ear, yanking him out of line, taking him to the principal's office. taught us all a lesson. no permission structure for racism in this school in mississippi. but donald trump has given a permission structure for racism and bigotry and hatred and neo-nazism. charlottesville and all these people, oh, he didn't say what he said. what are you going to do,

believe me or your lying ears? there is no defense. this bigotry leads to neo nazis getting ar-15s and killing little kids. >> it was the entire appeal of his candidacy, which began eight years ago next month, which is oh, we can say these things? i thought we weren't allowed to say them out loud. he said, no, you can think it and you can say it and i'm with you on it. i was thinking about this incident in texas. we put out the statistics about how many mass shootings this year. you have to get into it and think about the people, including the 6-year-old boy william who was at the mall with his family. his parents are dead, his 3-year-old little brother is dead. i wonder who's having that conversation with him today that your parents are gone, your little brother is gone. he's probably finishing

kindergarten. who's sitting down with him? is it a grandparent, a teacher? trying to begin to explain to him that his parents are gone and why they're gone, and those conversations are happening every day in our country. >> he's orphaned. he doesn't have the ability to process it. he's going to have to live with that for the rest of his life. and the fact that we allow it, that we won't protect our children in this way, is really an indictment of the state of the country in so many ways. not just these horrible people who are doing these things, but the fact that we continue to allow these weapons of war to circulate in the country. i think, joe, you've made an important point. there was a moment after the civil rights movement where there was a kind of tacit

agreement that certain things were off the table, you couldn't talk about people in certain ways. so politicians would engage in dog whistles. they would work because we knew underneath our civility was some of this ugly stuff. what did donald trump do? that new permission structure, we're going to turn the belly over. >> think about how quickly things changed. and he's gone.

he is gone. >> and here we are now, because of that permission structure, a white supremacist nazi with a weapon of war. >> this permission structure, which was created many years, political correctness went away and now it's racism and giving fuel to people like this monster over the weekend. the republican party has seen defeat after defeat. yet, they're only going further down that road. there's no signs of turning back. what does happen next? more people are going to die? >> more people are going to die because the republican party is not going to do anything to stop it. talking about that permission structure, how many dozens of leaders could have stopped

donald trump dead in his tracks eight years ago? the permission wasn't given by donald trump as much as it was people afraid to call out donald trump. that to me is what's really disturbing. when we look at the issue of ar-15s in people's hands, i think the best partnership we can have right now is with law enforcement. i think democrats really need to step up with law enforcement, who are condemning these weapons and that's who republicans are afraid of. there's no more nra. law enforcement turning their back on republicans on this issue could make a difference. >> with guns now the number one cause of death among children in the united states, most washington lawmakers are opposed to additional federal gun legislation. so the battle to protect america's kids is falling to the states. in north carolina, the situation is especially dire according to a report released this year. children are 51% more likely to

die of gun violence in north carolina than the rest of the country. joining us now is someone working to change that. north carolina's attorney general josh stein. thanks for being with us. you've talked about red flag laws, background checks, raising the age to get an ar-15 to 21, not exactly gun grabbing but just some new rules and laws that have broad national support across parties. that's been the response to those ideas in north carolina? >> there are two ways you can measure response by the people or the republican politicians in our general assembly. there is widespread consensus that dangerous, violent people should not have guns. that's why we have comprehensive background check systems and red flag laws to take guns away from people who pose a risk to themselves and others.

that's why kids who can't buy a beer or a cigarette but can buy an ar-15 should not be able to until they're 21 years old. these laws wouldn't solve this gun problem, but they would have a measurable impact on reducing the number of people dying gun deaths. we have a republican assembly that seems to be completely captured by those who want to have guns everywhere. i'm all for the second amendment. these two ideas, respecting the second amendment and keeping guns out of violent people's hands are in no way inconsistent. >> i grew up in a gun culture, georgia, mississippi, alabama, northwest florida. it was very common to walk in for thanksgiving dinner at your relative's house, they have

shotguns up against the wall. but guess what? they're locked up. if they have handguns, they're locked up. go place that probably has 10 or 12 guns in that house between hunting rifles and pistols and shotguns, they're locked up. i talk about churches in the deep south. none of them are nra members. they're all hunters. not one of them i met in 60 years have said i need an ar-15 and nobody can tell me that i can't leave my shotgun laying around on a table if i don't want to. i say this to say these legislators fighting red flag laws and safe storage and all of these things, they are so radically out of touch even with gun owners in northwest florida, gun owners in north carolina,

gun owners and hunters across america. >> i agree, joe. yesterday we held a forum in charlotte on the youth mental health crisis, which is real. it's incredible painful to see what our young people are going through. the keynote speaker was a dad who talked about his son who was experiencing a depressed moment, at the lowest of the low and he went to his dad's gun safe to get a shotgun to blow his head off. thank god he could not get into that safe and that young man is alive today, all because that father had safely stored his weapon. we must have safe storage because too many kids are getting their hands on guns and terrible things are happening as a result. >> we're talking about guns. it's also fuelled by hate. you're supporting in your state the hate crimes prevention act. tell us a little bit about what's in it and also that it can't get to the floor for a vote because it's not being

supported by republicans in your state. >> yeah. what we have seen is that hate speech can lead to hate crimes. the increase in hate crimes happening against all population, doesn't matter if you're black, jewish, hispanic or gay or any other marginalized group, the increase in incidents is very troubling. a senator has introduced hate crime laws to raise enforcement and increase the reporting requirements by local law enforcement so we have a full sense of the scope of the problem here in north carolina, because right now we simply just don't know. >> north carolina attorney general josh stein, thank you very much, sir. turning to washington where president biden is set to meet with top congressional leaders

at the white house today including house speaker kevin mccarthy on the debt ceiling. for a preview, let's bring in ali vitali. what do we expect to see this afternoon? >> reporter: high urgency, but low expectations heading into this meeting, especially because we've seen both sides here on capitol hill over the last few weeks dig into their position. democrats say they only want to do a clean debt ceiling hike and separately have conversations about budget and spending, republicans continuing to group those two things together. we watched because kevin mccarthy narrowly passed a bill through his conference that would raise the debt ceiling but also deal with spending concerns. mccarthy is trying to ride that into this meeting to show he has leverage. in this moment he does have a little more leverage going into this, because it's a rare moment

where mitch mcconnell is falling in behind mccarthy, at least publicly saying that he is going to allow the speaker to continue to control the tone and ten your of these negotiations. the clock is ticking on this moment. you've got less than a month between this meeting today and that june 1st date the treasury department has laid out does not leave leaders a lot of time to hammer out a negotiated position. the procedure here in congress is notoriously slow as well. so there is concern among republicans and democrats that i've talked to that maybe the negotiation might take so long. it's partly why we've seen the white house float the idea of maybe a short-term fix that would allow them a little bit more time. both senate republicans i've

spoken to say a deadline is a deadline and that's the reason negotiations are picking up now. we're watching staff try to till the soil a little bit to make sure this meeting can be as productive as possible. myself and the team here on capitol hill met on friday the top staff for the core four congressional leaders as well as top staff from the administration met on friday to sort of hammer out the initial details of what this meeting could entail today. all of it meant to put tangible things in motion that these leaders can get to the table and actually be productive. again the hope is that this meeting can start negotiations on a fast track because time is of the essence. >> thank you so much. republicans talking about the debt ceiling and deficits and debt, such a joke. you have people saying oh, oh, joe biden has spent more money -- nobody said anything

when donald trump was breaking records for budgets every year, for deficits every year, for national debt every year. donald trump expanded the national debt more in four years than the first 40, 42, 43 presidents expanded the national debt over 220 something years. it's such a joke. republicans don't care about debt ceilings. they passed a hell of a lot more of them when republican presidents were in office. they just don't care. it's hypocritical. democrats may cross their arms and say, it's going to be a clean debt ceiling. no, they're not going to get that. democrats are going to need to come back with something and talk about the deal. what do democrats need to do in the senate? >> well, what i think needs to

happen in the senate is i think mitch mcconnell needs to get activated and i'm sure he and chuck schumer could work out something that they could agree on and they could get the senate to agree on.

we're going to honor the 14th amendment and honor the full faith and credit of the united states and take us to court if you don't believe that. that at least buys some time as the supreme court makes a decision. that's a crazy way to run a country, a ridiculous way to run a country. the debt ceiling is the stupidist fight we regularly have. but here we are and i frankly wonder if kevin mccarthy can maneuver this or land this airliner? >> i want to see chuck schumer

come back and say we're going to roll back every single trump tax cut. we're going to abolish all of the trump tax cuts. when republicans started whining about gas stoves, they're not coming for your gas stoves. they're saying you can't have gas stoves in the future in new york state. please tell me that these new york democrats did not do that?

they're idiots. >> yes. that's what happens when you have one party rule and you're trying to take care of the progressive left and you have a governor with a gas stove. >> does the governor really think gas stoves is the most pressing thing in new york state? is she going to stop climate change by stopping people on long island from getting a new home and putting a gas stove in there? there are people who like cooking with gas. >> again, trying to please everyone really coming down poorly on this. as a new yorker i'll tell you i love my gas stove. >> this is a stupid, stupid thing for them to do.

it really is. they play into the stereotypes. this is my miscalculation. i didn't think democrats were this stupid. >> just wait. there's more to come. i promise you. i'm trying to do a segue. i'm not going to do speaking of stupid because that wouldn't be nice. coming up on "morning joe," brand up/brand down. heading on a family trip? nah, sorry son, prices are crazy, [son deflates]

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walker, pullup. walker with another one! >> the lakers getting an unlikely boost in game 4 against the warriors.ch and scores 15 in the fourth quarter, including that go-ahead jumper in the final minutes. lebron james led the lakers with a team high 27. anthony davis, 23 and 15. the lakers overcoming steph curry's triple-double. now l.a. has a 3-1 series lead as the teams head back to san francisco for game 5 tomorrow night. the champs on the ropes here. >> curry is doing his part but this warriors team does not have the depth of previous squads. the lakers traded westbrook. e l. brought in bench players. davis and lebron have been great. they ared the team to beat out west.

i hate to say it. >> i have to say, i watch college basketball, i haven't watched nba. if it is the lakers and celtics in the finals, i'm watching all seven. >> that's a good series. this all brings us -- it's all prelude. brand up-brand down with donny deutch. >> he committed to usc. he is number 19 in the country. he is projected to go number 10 in themb draft. he is the nil. he is worth $5.9 million. college athletes can trade on their likeness. lebron james has been in the public eye since high school. he has the son to prove it. >> he said something moving. he was glad his son was staying home. he was also the first in the

family to go to college. lebron jumped right to the nba. >> if you follow him on social media, amazing family. let's go to fox advertisers. >> it is interesting. brand up. everybody saying what a horrible business decision was to get rid of tucker carlson. he has huge ratings. ratings only matter because he was ranting. now p&g is back. scot lawn products are back. major advertising is coming back. it was not just a bad financial decision. tie advertisers are coming back. >>er you see media reporters wh don't understand the basic economics of cable news. it's stunning. everybody say ratings are ratings. you look at cnbc. they don't get a lot of viewers, but the right viewers and make a

ton of money. if you have the right penal watching, your advertising rates go up. instead of glenn beck at fox news selling survival seeds and gold coin. literally. same with tucker. you get somebody in and everybody is going to say the ratings are down. p&g doesn't care. you know what? they have the right people watching. they get the audience here. listen, we want p&g and an pb. they want the morning joe audiencejo and fox news. they want the east coast and west coast and central time zone. also, one other thing, they don't understand is it is the end of the day and why have you had bill o'reilly leaving? tucker carlson leaving. it moves on because 75% of the

income of cable news networks make from sub fees. there "ain't" a cable news system in america that is going to drop fox news because of who is on or not on at 8:00 p.m. for fox, you are right. they will get the sub fees now and now advertisers on top of the sub fees. this is a money making venture for fox. >> six months, the ratings will be back. beck was replaceable. the fox audience watches fox as a utility. >> they leave. they come back. >> the a.i. is at the center of the hollywood writers strike. brand down? >> this is the beginning of corporate america's wrestling match with a.i. part of the writers strike is protect actors from all of a sudden dubbing foreign voices and faces in their speaking. they want to protect actors and

writers. you can't use a labor union to say. a lot of writers will be replaced by a.i. this is the world. >> i'm deeply concerned about this one because i'm 43 years old. the age of 43, brand down. why? >> first year they say according to research that millennials at 43. >> this is pure picking. >> they don't feel young. they feelt aches and gray hair. i don't see gray hair on you. >> you look great, john. >> the good news is you have nine years until you start to feel old. the age is 52 when people start to feel old. >> i'm going to talk about myself here for a second. i know i never do that. i just turned 60 this year. >> seriously? i'm in the best shape of my

life. 50s. you turn 50 and guys are stupid. the first time they figure out i'm going to die. women figure it out a long time ago. you figure it out and it is tough.d 50s are great. the 50s are great. 60. come on. >> i'm 65. 65 just sucks. >> you know. >> 60 was great. >> i'm fine. for the first time, ike working -- i'm working out. >> mika, is this true? >> i'm just saying they are trying to depress 43-year-olds. i'm doing what you said, baby. there's a long runway. >> yeah. are you talking to me? >> i wasn't talking to donny. >> you can't say that. >> it's a long runway.

i love 50s. 56 this year. i thought i was 57 for the longest time. long story. 43. you are a baby. it's true. he has been working out like crazy for the past i would say year or nine months like crazy. >> am i looking like the rock? >> much better. >> you know, it's funny. you are 43 and you want to look like the rock. when you are 60, you want to stay alive. it would be nice to be here. i say i still get a 15-year-old kid. i have to keep up. >> i moved. >> i got to help jack. if somebody of nantucket and somebody talks trash about willie's sunday show, jack's going into the crowd. i'll wear my duck head khakis and boom. i work the bag all the time.ll

i know i have to defend your honor. >> the nantucket red. >> you know, left, right, left, right. >> you start bleeding and nobody can see it. this 43 thing, i'm talking to you who are 43 right now. you have a long runway. it's all good. >> that's good, joe. >> don, you say it breaks down at 65. >> it all falls apart. i'm doing pushups and running around. 65 sucks. i don't want to kid anybody. you have five years. >> i have five years. >> my dear friend, you have five. let's talk in five. >> thank you. >> the rails are off. we never got to all-you-can-eat at golden corral. this is for you. all-you-can-eat like golden corral and cicis.

through the roof. do a remote. >> i'll do a remote from barn hill country buffet. all-you-can-eat. it's doing well. >> i love the buffet or cracker barrel. >> mmm. >> i'm going to tell you -- >> i just have to say one other thing. this is it. i promise. you talk about cracker barrel and u food. i want to beg the good people of whataburger. expand your territory. the good people of krystal's. go north, go south. you look at my food pyramid. you have the burger. you have the krystal burger and

popeyes chicken. that's the pyramid. i miss roy rogers and rr burger. >> good on the parkway. they have roys. you can find them. mika, back to you. >> okay. >> mika. start this up. >> i'm going to say that to really wrapo this up. nothing beats shady maple the in lancaster, pennsylvania. a football fieldnc of food. that's all i will say. coming up, president biden backs the writers guild as its strike hits one week. we'll have the comments for you ahead on "morning joe. mornin g j. your brain is an amazing thing. but as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain

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from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. for the first time, president biden is weighing in on the ongoing hollywood writ s strike going one week. >> i hope it gets resolved and get a fair deal. they deserve it. this is iconic american

industry. we need the writers and all of the workers and everyone involved to tell the stories of our nation and stories of all of us. >> the president made the comments last night at the white house while hosting the screening of the upcoming streaming series "american born chinese." writers are striking for the first time in 15 years with the disputes centering on pay and staffing. the biden administration is proposing airlines to compensate travelers when the company is at fault for the disruption. this marks the first time the airlines would be required to cover meals or hotelshotels, an ticket refunds for controllable delays and cancellations. all for it. coming up, award winning actor and filmmaker, emilio estevez is joining by. he joins us live in studio

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you should fly with me. a father and son trip, it will be fun. >> yeah, right. >> most people don't have the luxury of picking up and leaving it all behind, daniel. >> you said if i let you take me to the airport you wouldn't lecture me about my life. >> i lied. >> hello? >> are you the father of daniel avery? >> i was walking the road to santiago, 800 kilometers on the northwestern coast of spain. this is everything he had when we found him. people have walked the path for over a thousand years. it is a very personal journey, mr. avery. >> he was my only child. >> we're going to walk, both of us. >> tom? this is the way. >> that is the trailer from the

2010 film "the way" which tells the story of a father played by martin sheen who travels to europe and picks up the journey of his son who died attempting the pilgrimage. that location is the culmination point of extensive network of pilgrimage routes and trails that wind through europe. hundreds of thousands of people from around the world walk them every year. it is part of the reason why "the way" has developed a huge fan base in the years since it was first released. a spiritual story about relationships and life's journey the way now is being rereleased in theaters nationwide next tuesday, may 16th. joining us now, the film's director, who also co-stars in the movie alongside his father emilio estevez. good morning. so good to have you at the table. >> so wonderful to be here. >> you mentioned it first, i'm okay saying it now, you look so much like your father. i mean that as a high compliment, yes. >> he's a handsome lad. >> yes, he is.

yes. >> thank you very much. >> so can you explain for people who maybe didn't see this film in 2010 just the way it has picked up steam and become this almost like an iconic movie for so many people around the world, and why it is coming out again now? >> well, so, the -- people have been doing this pilgrimage for a thousand years and ten years ago, 11 years ago, we decided to make a film about it. we had no idea it would get this sort of following that it has. and it really struck a nerve with a lot of people because now following the pandemic, people are looking at sort of hitting the reset button on their lives. and they're saying what's important to me? pilgrimage doesn't necessarily also have to be going to spain, a pilgrimage can be walking across the aisle, for instance, and just meeting people halfway. which we're not saying a lot of in this country right now. but i think the important thing about pilgrimage is that it -- you take a minute, in this case, 40 days, to reflect, to figure

out what's important in your life, and have that -- take that spiritual journey and it is about a 500-mile pilgrimage. you have the time to really sort of figure out your life and, again, like i said, hit that reset button which is so important, especially now. >> disconnect in a way that no one does much of anymore. acting with your father, martin sheen, when he shot this film, i guess, 12 or 13 years ago now, what was that experience like? >> well, working with martin, i'm sure you met him, he's never a met a stranger and he loves everybody and he wants to shake everyone's hand. and he's always running for mayor. the thing about my dad, i had to get him to play this stodgy country club guy who wasn't really friendly, kind of prickly, and along the way he opens up. along the way he becomes very much like the son that he couldn't really meet halfway. in the opening, i only have a couple of scenes in the film as an actor, but in the film, i'm sort of this hippie, looking to

go off and travel the world and he's, you know, his idea of adventure is, you know, four guys, four doctors playing golf at the country club. so he won't -- he can't see the life that i'm -- that i'm really excited to want to live, and so he -- after the son's death, he's now forced to go to spain, to collect the remains and bring him home for burial, but instead he has this moment of inspiration and he does the pilgrimage himself. >> by the way, your dad has been so beautiful to us, so loving and giving about this show and so supportive and it is just meant the world to us. he's just been -- he's just a wonderful guy. i do have to ask, though, i can't teach my -- i learned a long time ago, i can't teach my kids guitar. >> right. >> god help us piano. i'm curious what was it like and have you gotten over it a decade later directing your father?

hey, hey, hey, hey, legend, not now, don't read the line that way. what's -- tell us about that. >> well, so, he -- you know he's pretty dug-in. and he's -- >> that's a beautiful way to say it. >> and he's -- listen, the crew -- the crew, they look at me, i say do that again. i'm going to -- >> i'm going to tell my kids to say that about me, he's pretty dug-in. >> the crew would look at me and say why are you yelling at him? i said, he's not getting the lines right, he's not following my direction, why wouldn't he do what i'm telling him to do? but, again, our parents, you know, they are -- they are our parents. and i think that there's -- they never stop looking at us like we're still 6 years old and i think he probably looked at me the whole time as i was giving him this direction, that i'm still the 6-year-old kid telling him what to do. and so -- but, listen, i think

he gives the most amazing performance. >> what a beautiful result of that relationship. >> absolutely, yeah. >> talk about the rerelease now. you mentioned the pandemic. so many people have lost so many people. >> that's right. >> and so many people are grieving in the privacy of their own homes, trying to figure out how to hit the reset button. what does it mean for you as director of the film, that had a life probably well beyond what you initially thought it would have, to rerelease it right now. >> i just talked to a journalist last week who lost 22 members of his family. 22 members. and i think, again, coming out of the pandemic, when are we going to grieve? because i don't think we have grieved properly. i think that we are still sort of -- we kind of went on to the next -- we lost a million plus americans. when are we going to start the grieving process because i don't think we have. and i think the importance of the film and why it is so important now coming back is that it offers that moment to grieve. and i think that's why it's -- i

think that's why people are digging into it again, and rediscovering it, and saying, this movie, we may have missed this 12 years ago, but it is -- this movie is more important and more relevant now than when it was when we first released it. >> of that, of that timing, it is about family, but tell us why it is a movie about faith. >> well, the pilgrimage itself has been -- it started as a catholic or christian pilgrimage. it is now sort of morphed into something more than that, something -- people will go off for adventure, people go off looking for a life change, but they just lost somebody, so it is about loss, it is about grief. but it is -- when you look at the pilgrimage, it is easy to dismiss it as a faith-based pilgrimage, but it is not. it is much more than that. it is about community. and it is about finding community where we may not be finding it elsewhere right now in the world. and oftentimes the community you find is not necessarily the community that you want. but it may be the community that

you need. >> well said. it is such a cool movie, i'm so glad it picked up all this energy that it has. and that people get another chance to see it if they haven't yet. it is called "the way," rereleased in theaters nationwide next week. emilio estevez, so great to see you. >> cincinnati guy. >> my mom was born in cincy, 1939. my dad was born in dayton. i'm a buckeye. >> a buckeye and reds fan. >> and bengals and reds guy. i'm all for it -- i'm all about cincinnati. >> congrats again. so great to have you with us. >> thank you. that does it for us this morning. we'll be right back here tomorrow morning. >> for another 12 hours. >> another 12-hour shift. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. hello and thank you for joining us. it is 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. and this morning,