the president, schumer, all understanding the gravity of the situation and the need not to default, you know, i think that's a positive thing. and the other thing i took, i thought was interesting that he said, well. >> 15 seconds on the shot clock, just so you know. >> the 14th amendment. and he said, well, that would be for the future. i don't -- i didn't hear him rule out that as a sort of break glass last-minute move if it came to that. >> all very interesting. i'm only patrolling the shot clock like a good ref so i can hand it off to joy reid in time. we appreciate you standing by on a big news night. gene robinson from "the washington post." that does it for us. there's a lot going on. msnbc has you covered. keep it right here. "the reidout" starts now. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> when you're a star, they let

you do it. you can do anything, grab them by the [ bleep ], you can do anything. that's what you said? >> historically, that's true with stars. >> true with stars that they can grab women by the [ bleep ]? >> if you look over the last million years, i guess that's been largely true, not always, but largely true. unfortunately or fortunately. >> unfortunately for donald trump, a jury of his peers determines he is indeed a sexual predator. the nine jurors deliberating for just three hours before they historic decision in favor of e. jean carroll on most counts, including sexual abuse and defamation. plus, breaking news, the law is finally catching up to the most dishonest member of congress. nbc news has learned republican congressman george santos is now facing criminal charges from the justice department. but we begin "the reidout" tonight with another historic first for donald trump. not only was trump the first

twice impeached president, not only is he the first former president to be indicted, but as of tonight, he's the first former president to be liable for sexual abuse. that was the decision of the jury in the rape and defamation civil suit brought against trump by writer e. jean carroll. in addition to finding him liable for sexual abuse and the injuries that came with it, the nine-member jury found him liable for defaming carroll after she made her allegations public. and doing so with actual malice. that lability comes with a price tag of $5 million. it took the jury less than three hours to come to that decision following a two-week trial where trump was notably a no-show. after it was read in the courtroom, each juror confirmed the decision was indeed unanimous. carroll and her attorney roberta kaplan did not take questions outside the court today. but kaplan said we are very happy. and about the same time, trump posted on his twitter knockoff, i have absolutely no idea who this woman is.

the verdict is a disgrace. a continuation of the greatest witch hunt of all time. carroll later released a statement that in part read, i filed this lawsuit against donald trump to clear my name and to get my life back. today, the world finally knows the truth. this victory is not just for me but for every woman who has suffered because she was not believed. for trump, this is just the start of what could be a very rough summer on the legal front. he still faces the hush money case brought by manhattan d.a. alvin bragg. there's the ongoing civil lawsuit by new york attorney general letitia james alleging widespread fraud by trump and his company. there's fulton county district attorney fani willis' investigation into trump's meddling in the 2020 presidential election in georgia. and of course, the two special counsel investigations into january 6th and into trump's mishandling of classified documents. joining me now is msnbc producer and reporter adam reese who was in the courtroom today as the verdict was read, also cynthia

alksne, former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst, and tim o'brien, senior executive editor at bloomberg opinion. adam, i'm going to go to you first. you were in the courtroom. talk about the scene when the jury was read, what were the reactions of all involved? >> it was a bit of a shocker how soon it came, joy. but apparently, there wasn't much to discuss. the evidence was overwhelming. in fact, during jury -- actually, during closing arguments, two of the jurors were actually dozing off. one of them had his head actually in his chest. one of the attorneys told me a sleeping juror is a convicted juror. the evidence was really damning and overwhelming against mr. trump. you had the "access hollywood" tape, everyone has seen that. you had the deposition where he thinks he is seeing marla but it's really e. jean. he said she's not my type. he says fortunately or unfortunately, again, it was just incredibly damning. he didn't show up for the trial. he didn't sit at the defense table. he didn't sit at the witness

stand. and in fact, maybe the jurors were actually insulted by that. you had the two prior bad act witnesses, the one woman who claimed she was sexually assaulted on a plane years ago. another reporter for "people" magazine who claims she was sexually assaulted at mar-a-lago when she went to interview trump and melania trump for a one-year anniversary piece. the evidence just kept coming and coming and coming. roberta kaplan, the attorney for e. jean carroll, really laid out her case precisely right. they were lucky on the jury instructions. they were lucky on the verdict form. it worked in their favor. on the way out, both sides spoke. there was a short comment from roberta kaplan. she said we're very happy. then afterwards, both roberta and e. jean carroll spoke. e. jean said this is a victory for all women, all women who have been sexually assaulted and have not had their voices. she finally gets her voice back. she said she wasn't doing it for the money. she just wanted to get her

reputation back. and she says now she has that. she can move forward. for mr. trump's part, mr. tacopina, who has avoided us all throughout the trial, he spoke to us afterwards. he said that obviously, they're not happy. they will appeal. on several grounds. they felt that the "access hollywood" tape should not have been admitted. they felt anonymous jurors should not have been allowed. he has defended many mobsters and even those trials, at least the attorneys know who the jurors are. and that was not true in this case. the nine jurors, six men, three women, they were hustled out as they had been brought in and left every day. they're anonymous. they may remain anonymous. this was a huge victory for e. jean carroll and a devastating loss for mr. trump, joy. >> adam, could you see the jurors? are they anonymous in the sense you couldn't visibly see them when they were sitting there? >> we could see them. it was a mixed race jury.

again, six men, three women. there were times, for instance, when she took the stand, when e. jean carroll took the stand, they were focused on her. during cross-examination, they stayed focused on her. they never looked at mr. tacopina during cross. and again, i want to say that roberta kaplan, the plaintiff's attorney, laid out this case precisely the way it should be. and they got a big victory. >> cynthia, let me go to you. were you surprised at how quickly this came back? >> i was surprised. i tried a lot of sex crimes cases. they can be very difficult, even when you think you have overwhelming evidence, they take a while to hash out. there are some ugly discussions that have to happen in that jury room. i was surprised and pleasantly surprised. i think victims really need it. i think, you know, in this post-roe world, women are under assault. there are all these women out there who have been assaulted and they just needed somebody to say, we think we're going to

believe you. your fellow americans are going to believe you. i'm happy for e. jean carroll, i know she doesn't care about the money, but i think it's really a more important verdict for all the women out there who are suffering and are still part of the quiet generation and need some validation. >> you said the quiet generation. do you think it's important this is a woman in her 70s, for her generation of women, they didn't have a me too movement. and when she was of the age when this was happening to her. do you think it's important that someone of this generation is who came forward so many years later and was believed by the jury? >> you know what i think it was? it was like jumping back in time. joe tacopina took a playbook from her generation to attack her. you didn't scream, you didn't go to the police, and i think we have had a really national discussion about no, women don't scream when they're having somebody stuff their fingers up inside their body when they don't want it. no, women don't go to the police. and this -- joe tacopina proved every reason why they don't go to the police.

because they're abused in the public, and trump proved that as well. it's opened up a discussion that's exciting for me as somebody who has tried a lot of sex crimes cases and i want victims to feel empowered. i think it's been very good. it's going to be very difficult for lawyers after this or it's more difficult for them to try to use this playbook from the '70s. >> one of the things that did surprise me, this is a jury with mostly men. six men and three women, the women were 55, 62, and 64 years of age. they were getting closer to the age of the victim here. the men were 26, 31, 37, 46, 60, and one of unknown age. a jury of twice as many men as women found him guilty. did that surprise you? >> that doesn't surprise me. i mean, classically, men are better jurors in rape cases, i'm sad to tell you. i do think that's changing. it is illegal and improper for a prosecutor to strike a person based on their gender. and i grew up in that world and

i took that very seriously, but it is also true that in the past, you know, in the long ago past, in the early e. jean carroll years, we're stepping back in that time, women were tougher, but i think that's changed over time. >> i want to ask, i guess, when the first reading came out, we were all waiting for adam to post each of these things. we're all staring at the box. >> holding on. >> waiting to see what adam was going to post. he had all of the power in his hands. one of the things when i saw no, your first thing you typed was no, adam. i was a little bit like, okay, no on the actual rape charge. these are the three things they had to deal with. so there's the rape charge, which everybody kind of i think understands that, forced sex, you know, that was unwanted. to find abuse, the jurors needed to believe trump subjected ms. carroll to sexual contact by physical force, touching the

intimate parts of another person, and forcible touching, which is squeezing, pinching, or body contact involving some level of pressure to the sexual intimate parts. are you surprised the one they chose of the three options was sexual abuse? >> no, and what's beautiful about this is why i love juries. they listen very carefully. what they know is when e. jean carroll went to her first outcry witness, the woman said to her, that's rape. this is something that outcry witness said to her. and so they were very discriminating about the evidence. not only does that hearten me that they're listening. it also protects the case on appeal that they have made that discriminating judgment. it's all good. >> tim, let me bring you in here. you have dealt with donald trump in court in which you won the day in terms of him lying to you in a deposition or not being honest in a deposition. were you surprised by the verdict and can you sort of have your mind wander into donald

trump's and wonder how he is really reacting? weknow he reacted on hes pretend social media? >> i was heartened by the verdict, joy. i didn't know which way it would go. i was heartened by the direction it took, to follow up on cynthia's very eloquent explanation of the importance of this case, one of the other elements of it that i think is really important is that new york state temporarily opened a window that allowed the statute of limitations to be lifted on cases such as e. jean carroll. and for women who have been sexually assaulted and/or raped, it often takes them years to come to terms with their trauma, the offense itself, and kind of work up the courage to take on their abusers or their attacker. and i think that's another important result from this case for women across the country. and we can hope that the courts continue to evolve in this direction. for trump, does he feel ashamed?

absolutely not. people who are narcicisstic and have damaged psyches don't feel shame. he is going to be humbled by it because he doesn't like to be a loser. and he just got beaten by two women leading a case that put him in the loser category. he's also, for any of the other lawyers defending him in the georgia case, the new york cases, or anything that comes out of the justice department, it's a reminder this guy is a time bomb in a deposition. he's the worst client you can imaginably have because he is a serial fabulist. he lies at will. he exaggerates. he's thin skinned. he wants to be the center of attention. and you combine all those things in one person as they do in donald trump and you have a nightmare client. and that's ultimately why he didn't testify in court. and this is going to be very frightening i think for lawyers who are representing him in other cases in which he's going to be, i think, put under oath. >> yeah. >> i don't think that's why he didn't testify.

i don't think it was because his lawyers said you're not a good client. he is a coward. that's why. he's a bully. he's a kind of person who has a lot to say when he's sitting in his little fancy golf course, but he does not have the guts to show up and actually face his accuser. that's why he played that game, saying i'm coming back to face her, and then he didn't have the guts to show up. and the judge outsmarted him. so i mean, tim knows him better than anybody in america, but i know a coward when i see one. >> let me play, because he didn't testify and yet he kind of did because he gave this deposition that i watched it and was like, this guy has convicted himself. if this was a criminal trial, he testified against himself. let's play probably the worst part of it. this is roberta kaplan who is a great lawyer, clearly, questioning donald trump. >> in this video, i just start kissing them. it's like a magnet. just kiss, i don't even wait. and when you're a star, they let you do it.

you can do anything. grab them by the [ bleep ], you can do anything. that's what you said, correct? >> historically, that's true with stars. >> true with stars that they can grab women by the [ bleep ]? >> if you look over the last million years i guess that's been largely true. not always, but largely true. unfortunately or fortunately. >> you consider yourself to be a star? >> i think you can say that, yeah. >> both cynthia and then tim. that was damning. >> i mean, not only was that damning, but my favorite damning beyond the fortunately or unfortunately was when he was caught wrongly identifying e. jean carroll and then when his lawyer improperly helped him out. that's totally improper. then he says, oh, the photograph is blurry. the photograph is not blurry.

you're saying to the jury, this is my testimony. i'm talking to you, jury, i'm talking to you. oh, and i'm lying to you. that's what he did. i'm lying to you, to the jury. >> before i go to you, tim, adam, what was the reaction of the jurors to that? did they have a reaction as that tape was being played? >> like you said, it's a confession. it's so damning, i mean, they just watched these tapes. it wasn't just that moment in the tape. it was one after another after another. fortunately or unfortunately. i mean, it's just -- everybody was in shock. i just want to mention one other thing quickly. everybody, i mean, tacopina put his arms up. he said you know what i'm dealing with. the judge today said he wouldn't do anything about trump's post today on truth social just as they're about to go in the jury room, he posted. it was a big moment. roberta kaplan brought it up just before they were about to go in, and the judge threw up

his arms. i'm not going to do anything. that's what you're dealing with. >> tim, for tacopina, he didn't have a strong hand to play. his client is not an honest person. his client says he's not going to testify. he says, oh, my client is not going to testify, then trump is overseas saying i'm coming back to face my accusers. what does this sort of bode for his future cases? because he isn't a client that can be managed, and he isn't a client that knows how to tell the truth and not damn himself by talking when he does? >> he's also a client who doesn't pay his legal bills. you know, that's one reason he's often not drawing the top tier of legal representation. in court, because people know sometimes you do all this hard work and you get a little bit of tv publicity, but you don't get your bills paid. i think tacopina is well matched to trump because they both approach this like one horse instruments, not as i think

surgical observers of the law, and robby kaplan schooled both of them. she's a top tier litigator. she filleted donald trump in that deposition. if you translated some of his answers into short synopsises of what he was saying including when he was talking about grabbing women by the genitals, a reduction would be millions of years, cavemen like me have been able to assault women, and maybe that's a good thing. that's a nuts thing to put on tape. i think it undermined his case, and she drew it out of him. i think she knew exactly what she was doing. and i think e. jean carroll was brave and robby kaplan is a great litigator, and it was good they were together. >> i agree. i would boil it down to something even simpler. the synopsis of his deposition was, yeah, i did it. >> and i liked it. >> yeah, i did it. adam, cynthia, and tim, thank you all very much.

we have much more on the historic trump verdict coming up. first, the day's other major breaking news. serial fabricator george santos is expected to appear in court tomorrow to face undisclosed federal charges. what we know so far when "the reidout" continues. there it is. that feeling you get... when you can du more with less asthma. it starts with dupixent. dupixent is not for sudden breathing problems. it's an add-on treatment for specific types of moderate-to-severe asthma. and can help improve lung function for better breathing in as little as two weeks. dupixent helps prevent asthma attacks... and can even reduce or eliminate oral steroids. can you picture it? dupixent can cause allergic reactions that can be severe. get help right away if you have rash, chest pain, worsening shortness of breath, tingling or numbness in your limbs. tell your doctor about new or worsening joint aches

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more breaking legal news today involving another scandal plagued republican politician. congressman george santos.

nbc news can now confirm that the justice department has charged congressman santos with federal offenses. he's expected to appear in court tomorrow. it is unclear still what those charges are exactly, but we do know that prosecutors have been looking into his finances, including potential irregularities involving financial disclosures and loans he made to his congressional campaign. joining me now is democratic congressman richie torres of new york, and paul butler, professor at georgetown school of law and msnbc legal analyst. i'll start with you paul. speculate for us, what do you think these charges can be? >> so, campaign financing, false statements, unlike donald trump, with santos, it was always a question of when he was going to be indicted, not if. we know that in january, justice department reached out to the federal election commission which was doing a civil investigation. justice said we want this case, criminal cases come first. this was expected. the smoking gun is $700,000, a

loan that santos gave his campaign. this is not a rich dude. where did he get this money? did he accuraty reflect how it was spent on his forms? those forms, joy, are signed under penalty of perjury. this is an easy case for prosecutors. >> there is this piece here which is a "new york times" piece, about $365,000 failure to account for that money in terms of spending. he was not filling out the form saying this is what i'm spending had money on. this could be part of? >> prosecutors follow the money. in santos' case, follow the lies. >> santos claims when a reporter asked him about the charges, he claimed he was finding out from them, from an associated press reporter. does that sound likely to you? >> it sound like another one of his lies, actually. you never know, but i worked in the same section that has indicted -- presented to the grand jury the indictment of santos. in that section, people are

summoned as trump was to criminal court in manhattan, which means that their lawyer is told that they are going to be charged, and they're allowed to come in and surrender. >> it's not possible that, oh, i found out in the news? >> extremely unlikely. >> congressman, let me bring you in here. you have called for santos to resign. what is your reaction to this news? >> long overdue prosecution of george santos confirms what we have long known. that mr. santos is a pathological liar and law breaker, defrauded his way into the united states congress. and should be held accountable. for me, there are only two morally acceptable outcomes. either santos resigns or house republicans summon the courage to finally expel him in congress. if republicans have a choice here, either you're enabling the corruption of santos or expelling it from the united states congress and recognizing he's a deep rot at the core of congress as an institution.

>> what do you think the likelihood of that is? in january when he was asked, kevin mccarthy said he was elected, it's not my place to do anything about it. let me play what he just said within the last hour. here is kevin mccarthy. >> so i think in america, you're innocent until proven guilty, have watched in past behavior here too, when there was another member indicted, i removed committee, i never put santos on any committee. that member did not just get indicted but found guilty, i told him he had to resign. i would keep the same here whether you're republican or democrat. >> but he is on committees, isn't he? isn't he on the banking and another committee? >> speaker mccarthy appointed him to two committees before removing him, so the statement is only partly true. but keep in mind, george santos was the decisive vote in the republican bill to default on america. he was the decisive vote. and so even though republicans

ran on a platform of draining the swamp, republicans refuse to drain the greatest swamp of them all, which is the corruption of george santos. the reality is that kevin mccarthy needs every vote he can get, and he needs george santos to remain in power and sabotage the full faith and credit of the united states. >> let me come back to you, paul. that seems likely to me, it doesn't seem likely he would be forcibly expelled and perhaps a prosecution will remove him on his own. just to be clear, it is not illegal to lie about where you went to school, right? >> no. >> he lied about where he went to school. he went to horace mann, not true, attended nyu, not true. it's not illegal to lie about where you used to work. citibank, goldman sachs, not illegal. lying about your faith. said he was youing, not true. his charities, not true. then you get to these other things where you're actually raising money. he said his mother died in 9/11. no, she did not. those things are not true. and the friends of the pets

things, not real. where do the lies from a politician like him become crimes? >> when you lie to the fbi, when you sign statements saying that everything that you have written on the statement is accurate and you know that that's a lie, then in addition to being a lie, that's a federal crime. and it's true as you spoke with the congressman about, that there's no congressional bar to serving as a congressperson if you have been convicted of a crime. the rule is that if you are convicted of a crime and the punishment carries more than two years in prison, you can't vote on the floor. you can't vote in committee, but you can do other congressional responsibilities. >> the same way donald trump could run for president from rikers, this guy could be a convicted criminal and serve. >> exactly right. >> congressman torres, your thoughts on this. as you said, kevin mccarthy is desperate for these votes. he serves as the narrowest

majority, but even though it's the same majority speaker pelosi had, he ain't speaker pelosi. he doesn't know how to run his caucus the way she ran hers. what is the likelihood in your mind because he needs the vote, he will let him stay in office while in theory he is on trial? >> look y would never bet on the integrity of the republican party, which has a high tolerance for scandal and corruption and criminality, and george santos to me is not an accident. he's an outgrowth of a broken republican party whose standard bearer is donald trump who on the same day was found liable for sexual assault. the modern republican party is an endless stream of scandal, and i have no confidence in the ability of the republican party to hold george santos accountable at all. >> and how odd would it be for you, we're literally looking at the possibility that donald trump could theoretically get indicted either in georgia or at the federal level, you know, for

the jack smith investigation. and you could have the pivotal swing vote or the pivotal vote for kevin mccarthy in the house and the standard bearer of the republican party both facing criminal indictment? do any of the people on the other side of the aisle ever say to you that they understand how crazy that is? >> look, the majority of republicans want nothing to do with george santos. everyone acknowledges that he's corrupt and radioactive and has no business being in congress. the so-called reasonable republicans live in fear of the extremes and refuse to hold george santos accountable. as far as i'm concerned, those republicans who are turning a blind eye to the corruption of george santos, who are denying voters the representation they deserve, are complicit in defrauding the voters of the united states. >> congressman ritchie torres, thank you. paul butler, don't make any plans for the next couple days because this is going to keep getting spicier and spice. . >> up next, more on today's

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we're back with the news that former president donald trump was found liable for sexually abusing and defaming e. jean carroll. this is the first time a former president has been found liable for these types of allegations.

it is unprecedented. and yet, is happening as he's asking the american people for a second shot at the presidency. right now, trump is the republican standard bearer and the front-runner. just think about that. a man found liable by nine jurors of sexual abuse and actual malice is the man to beat. here's what republicans are hearing and saying about the verdict. >> any other candidate faced with this type of verdict would likely never be seen again. >> it has a cumulative effect and people have to decide whether or not they want to deal with all the drama that's going to surround him. >> to roll the dice on nominating somebody with this -- these kinds of difficulties and baggage, i just can't see it. >> regardless of what you think about him as an individual, to me, electability is the sole criterion. >> you don't think trump could be elected president again? >> i don't think so. >> in a town hall tomorrow, cnn will are the opportunity to ask

voters and the former president if they care. it's an open question whether or not they actually will. joining me now is david plouffe, former obama campaign manager and msnbc political analyst, and douglas brinkley, presidential historian and professor of history at rice university. thank you both for being here. douglas, i want to start with you because this is a historic moment. there are presidents who have been alleged to commit sexual offenses before. even old grover cleveland had a case that was thought to just be an illegitimate child and later historians discovered that 1871 case was actually an alleged rape. and of course, there was the situations with bill clinton, you could go on. but this is the first time that you had a jury actually say yes, this man is a person who committed sexual abuse. what does that mean in your view historically? >> well, this will be in the first paragraph of donald trump's obituary. this man is a sexual predator. he committed sexual assault.

the jury wasn't nine women angry at donald trump. it was six men in the jury, and they deliberated quickly. the evidence was overwhelming. and so this is a landmark moment. i think history will look at the adult survivors act, and you know, that opening for women like e. jean carroll to come forward and get some bit of justice, not just the $5 million monetary settlement, but the fact that she has her name cleared, and hopefully, joy, she gets her column back. she was a major columnist from 1993 until 2019 for "elle" and maybe now she comes back at 79 years old and talked about the me too generation and how women can confront sexual predators in various ways and tactics and it's scary because this guy, donald trump, is running for president again. >> you know, and i think it's so important you said that.

cynthia alksne also was leaving the set in the last segment when she was on, she was making the point that for women, this is such an important verdict because it means that women will feel they can be believed and there are women in their 70s and also in their 20s dealing with this, and it's frightening, but let me bring you in david. the thing about donald trump that's unique among everyone who has run before is that this is just one of 26 women who have accused him of some level of sexual abuse including rape. this is somebody who seems to be not just a one timer but a sex pest. multiple times, and we're living in this area where roe is gone, where you have two of nine supreme court justices who have also been accused of predatory sexual activity. they're deciding whether we can have abortions. what is going on politically here inside of the republican party, and how do you think they're going to deal with it? >> well, joy, i hate to reduce it to politics but i do think

that as i think about the election where he is right now the front-runner, long way to go, but i don't think there's a single swing voter out there who is going to be more likely to vote for donald trump. i think this will add to the baggage that he's carried. much of it very, very serious and unprecedented. but i think with republican primary voters, i think there's probably 30% to 40% of them that would really like to choose somebody else, maybe even a little more than that, because i don't think he can win, not that they think his behavior is all that awful. that the terrible thing. people don't really condemn his behavior. they'll condemn the fact, well, this makes him unelectable. this probably strengthens him in the near term, because i think for a lot of republican primary voters, they cannot believe that donald trump is ever done anything bad, it's all unfair. it's all rigged. but i do think that, you know, as you look at next year, where we may have a pretty challenging economy and a democratic incumbent president asking to be re-elected with a challenging economy, it is all that baggage

that trump carries that probably gives biden a slight advantage in that matchup. and the other thing about it is, basically, you have -- there's no age differential between biden and trump. you have two old guys running. one has now been convicted of basically sexual assault. he has all these other allegations. he's been twice indicted, twice impeached and people are kind of tired of the act. that's what's fascinating about this going forward. i think at the end of the day something fundamental, joy, 20, 25 years ago, the republican party, the party of faith, of family values, would not just support this guy, but hoist him up. i think for a lot of republicans, he is the most important republican president and the most significant in their life, more than lincoln, more than reagan, it's donald trump. that tells you how rotten to the core the whole enterprise has become. >> douglas y do think about that. i can't think of a president who, you know, if this had been juanita broaddrick and bill clinton before his second term

came up and he had gone to court and lost such a case, the democratic party would have run him out of town. even i mentioned glover cleveland, mama, where's my pa, he was ridiculed. thomas jefferson who was accused of raping a 14-year-old girl, but at the time, it was a tremendous scandal. i can't think of a person, at least in the modern political era, who could survive this kind of onslaught of bad things that they have allegedly done. what does it say about the state of the country, of the party, that donald trump seems to be actually thriving the more bad things he's accused of? >> you know, one of the things from the beginning donald trump has kind of marketed himself as a misogynist. i mean, he was somebody who was doing beauty pageants and somebody who was objectifying women. he famously went on howard stern's radio show and said my

vietnam was sleeping with so many women i didn't want to get gonorrhea or venereal disease. he says all this kind of stuff, and so he's been toxic on the issue of women, the way he treated hillary clinton when he ran against her, demeaned her. but the fact is, he got three supreme court justices in, and those conservative justices are the ones that have unraveled roe v. wade and are turning women's rights backwards. so hopefully this e. jean carroll victory will empower women to speak up and go further and demand their human rights and equal rights in a very loud way that's heard at the ballot boxes. that this is finally becoming the year where the women votes matter in a huge way. and i think what happened with e. jean carroll is another dent

in trump's armor because he's not operating in the mad man era anymore. he's operating in the era of the me too movement and he caught his comeuppance by a 9-1 jury verdict in new york. >> you know what's interesting, 9-0, it was a unanimous -- it had to be unanimous. and david, i do wonder that. the "access hollywood" video came out when there was still a roe v. wade, when you didn't have this absolute rage among women, even in places like kansas, about the withdrawal of a right that women -- most women had grown up with their entire lives or in e. jean carroll's case got in their 20s and it's gone. do you think this hits differently in a post-roe era? and is it worthwhile, you know, women's votes are malleable depending on whether you're talking about women who are white or not white. is it worth leaning into what this says to older women,

particularly older white women who are like e. jean carroll, for democrats to lean into it, given that roe is gone? >> well, it's clearly going to be one of the core arguments, if he's the republican nominee. again, we have a long way to go until then. do you want a convicted sexual abuser as your president? by the way, who's most responsible to douglas's point about the three supreme court justices, for the erosion of women's health care rights, of roe v. wade? donald trump. you have to lay that on him, in many respects, we saw that in 2022, but the person responsible wasn't on the ballot at the top of the ticket. so yeah, at the end of the day, i think he carries enormous baggage, personal behavior, some of the policies he supported, how devastating they have been to women and i would argue all people in this country and do people want to return to that? do we want him to appoint one or two more supreme court justices? so at the end of the day, that's where you hear the cornyns of the world, you know, they don't

think he can win. but right now, you know, someone has to take the throne away from him. and the governor of florida is kind of, you know, sputtering around. i still think he's got one or two lives left. it's still very early. i think even the republican primary voters, there's enough people to say donald trump is my favorite politician of all time, but he can't win. give him the gold watch and go with somebody else, but someone has to seize that from trump. i'm sure what we'll see tomorrow night on cnn, he'll be very pugilistic, of course, he never, ever apologizes for anything. and he'll just attack the news media and say this is all one big plot to basically silence his voice and silence the voices of maga. so i do think, yes, it's hard to believe donald trump would do better with women voters in 2024 than he did in 2020. the state of the economy will play a part, no question this is another anchor kind of around his political ship.

>> yeah. it is shameful, i think, that the only thing that cornyn, senator cornyn could come up with is he's unelectable. at some point, the party supposedly of family values ought to care that he seems to have sexually assaulted a woman in a public space and walked away from it, and maybe 25 other women who were his victims as well. that ought to matter to someone. david plouffe, doug brinkley, thank you. up next, we're learning more about the white nationalism of the texas mall gunman and the victims of his horrific crime. we'll bring you the latest after this. and while romeo over here is trying to look cool, things are about to heat up. darn it, kyle! and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, you could end up paying for this yourself. so get allstate. here's to all the super moms who make every day an adventure. this mother's day give mom super gifts from weathertech

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that's it. miracle-gro. all you need to know to grow. >> the big question that we are dealing with right now is, what's his motive? why did he do this? the big question is, we don't know. we do know that he had neo-nazi ideation and he had patches, he had tattoos. even his signature verified that. that is one thing we do know. you >> details emerged today about the texas mall gunman who fatally shot eight people, including three children. the neo-nazi ideation, well, that came as no surprise and nbc news reports the shooter maintained a profile on a russian social networking platform, and ranted against jewish people, women and racial minorities. he also posted photos of a flat vest, in place and with patches,

one of them with the initials for right wing death squads, a popular meme among far-right extremist groups. another post included a series of shirtless pictures with visible white power tattoos, including a swastika. and yet, not even swastika ink can commit convince some conservatives that the shooter held far-right views, with the like of marjorie taylor greene tweeting racist file such as, quote, only dumb white people would believe that a mexican gang member is killing people for white supremacy, unquote. the shooter has no criminal history. but facts don't matter when labeling brown people carte blanche as gangbangers, or undocumented, or drug dealers. of course, we know about the shooters hodgepodge of hate. but the big question remains. did he choose this target deliberately? the way other shooters, even very recently, targeted certain groups in their deaths breeze? we don't know if there is a racialized motive here. and we may never know.

what we do know is that allen, texas is among the dallas-fort worth area's most diverse suburbs. per the census, it has a fast growing asian american population as well. the shooter did not pick dallas, where he is from. he chose allen, about 25 miles north of downtown dallas. let's look at the victims again. at those who died -- let's think about the six-year-old survivor who lost his parents and his little brother and whose life will never be the same. let's think about who lives in the city, who shocked -- and at least half of those killed were asian americans. let's think two about how the government deliberately targeted the small, posting more than two dozen photos of it, as well as surrounding areas, including screenshots of google location information, seemingly monitoring them all and its busiest times. these massacres are often random. but then, they also aren't. and rather than considering, as

a nation, what a person with hateful views and unfettered access to weapons is capable of, we are pretending that a person, with a little swastika tattoo -- with a literal swastika swastika tattoo -- cannot be a white supremacist. we will be right back. that was this over your melia back to pedal thought you $26,000 per employee that's right your business support within five full-time of lawyers in 2024 2021 and your business was affected by the covid pandemic you eligible from $26,000 per employee to check your company's eligibility to receive $26,000 per employee goal about 70

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♪ ♪ ready for the big show? buckle up. ♪ ♪ i'm not gonna lie to you... that was awesome! >> that is tonight reidout, all in with chris hayes with is up next -- he will be talking to