are struggling with their mental health to seek treatment. here is some of what he had to say to our reporter. >> can you talk about your decision to seek help, to go to walter reed? what was sort of the triggering event for you? >> i'll never forget the decision, where it's like if i don't do something to claim my life, this could be tragic. i was skeptical. i was like, no i don't belong here, wow. >> you just talked about being skeptical. that you could get help. could you talk about, i think that's an added to that man may have, even more than women. man don't seek treatment as much as women do. >> this isn't a matter of who's tough and who's not. i had the blues or i have a

little melancholy. and i were just big man, you know, you're not too macho and it's no big deal. the people are gonna hurt more than anyone else is your family. >> we're so glad the senator was able to get the help he needed. remember, if you need help, please ask for it. and if you can give help, please give. it we are all in this together. and on that note, i wish you all a good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks and nbc news, thanks for staying up late. i'll see you at the end of tomorrow. tomorrow thank you at-home for joining us this hour. quote, no one is above the law, not even a former president of united states. that is how roberta kaplan, the lawyer for writer e. jean carroll, that is how she began her statement after the verdict was read in the case against former president trump. carol herself said, quote, i

filed this lawsuit against donald trump clear my name in to get my life back. today the world finally knows the truth. >> this afternoon a jury of six men and three women in manhattan, found former president donald trump liable for 60 will abuse and defamation. the decision was quick and it was unanimous for years now, trump has been not only denying miss carroll's allegation that he shoved her against a wall and raped her in the dressing room of a luxury department store in the mid 90s, trump also has been attempting to smear her reputation. the jury today stopped short of finding trump liable for rape when it came to that department store encounter. but jurors believe there was enough evidence to hold trump liable for sexually abusing miss carroll that day. and that alone is a very big deal. it is a big deal not just for e. jean carroll, but for society at large. trump is a public figure who has been accused of sexual misconduct by

more than a dozen women. but no one had ever taken him to court based on their allegations and won, until now. i should know that this was not a criminal case. trump has not been convicted of any crime, nor will he face any prison time. but this is still very much accountability. a former president, and the current republican front-runner in the 2024 presidential race has been found liable for sexual abuse. now president trump's lawyer in the case, joe tacopina, he told press outside of the courthouse today that quote, he was found not liable for the rape and that is it. we are already starting to see that narrative, the narrative that only focuses on that one finding by this jury. we are already starting to see that narrative take hold in the fringes of right-wing media. and former president trump is, of course, calling the trial unfair and a witch hunt. but check out how fox news reacted to this today.

>> a witch hunt is sort of an obsession that you go on forever and in an investigative fashion, chasing after a case that doesn't really exist. whereas in this instance, people brought forward evidence, and it was presented to a jury, not to a panel of democrats, and they unanimously found that he is liable. >> you are being arrogant if you think that this is nothing. this is not nothing. this is a sexual battery, a 5 million dollar finding by a jury, yes he will appeal it, and that appeal as it goes up the food chain will bring it back to the front page. back again and again. trump access hollywood, i could touch her anywhere i want. >> plenty of grounds on which to appeal. >> what are they? >> i don't really see them right now. of course donald trump has the right to appeal. i am very dubious it will be successful.

>> fox news, of all the places, seems to at least at this point understand the reality of the situation. a former president being found liable for sexual abuse is easy to understand, and it is plainly awful. but because the jury didn't find him liable for the rape narrative, it is already forming on the political fringes, i want to show you exactly what the jury did find trump liable for today. so you can see it for yourself. here is the jury's verdict form. question one, did miss carroll proof by preponderance of the evidence that mr. trump raped miss carroll? answer, no. question two, did miss carroll prove by a proponents of evidence that mr. trump sexually abused miss carroll? answer, yes. was miss carroll injured as a result of mr. trump's conduct? yes. if yes, insert $1 amount that would fairly and adequately compensate her for that injury. and you could see there the jury has written in $2 million.

was mr. trump's conduct willfully or wonderfully negligent? yes. how much if any should mr. trump pay carroll and punitive damages? $20,000. that is the first part about the sexual abuse. then there is this half about the defamation about trump denying carols claims, and trying to publicly trash her reputation. quote, did miss carroll prove by a preponderance of the evidence that mr. trump's statement was defamatory? yes. did miss carroll prove by clear and convincing evidence that mr. trump's statement was false? yes. did she prove that trump made the statement with actual malice? yes. was miss carroll injured as a result of mr. trump's statement? yes. did mr. trump act maliciously out of hatred, ill will, spite, or wanton, reckless, or willful disregard of the rights of another? yes. and then the jury lists three more dollar amounts for damages. 1 million, 1. 7

million, and $280,000. for those of you doing the math at home, that brings trump's tab here up to $5 million. trump's lawyer has vowed to appeal the verdict but today, clearly a landmark moment in american history. so what does all of this mean now? what does it mean for trump's future, what does it mean legally, what does it mean culturally? we have a lot to unpack. joining us now is lisa rubin, msnbc legal analyst who has been watching this trial from the start, and rebecca, writer at large for new york magazine. thank you both for joining me on this very big day. lisa, you've been there through it all, and i've got to say, when you are the lawyer for a defendant and you have to say, it didn't get him on the right thing, that seems like a thin defense given everything else that they got him on.

>> yes. it is a very thin defense. and he knows what the impact of this liability finding is because even though it is not a criminal trial, he said to the jury, do not condemn this man as a rapist. in other words, he understood full well that while this is a simple trial, the impact of the finding would almost be tantamount to a criminal conviction even though that is not what it is. it would be a jury of his peers unanimously finding that the conduct itself happened, even if the punishment was not jail. the fact they found unanimously that he sexually abused e. jean carroll is astonishing. >> you were there, and there was a lot of talk about the composition of the jury, the expectations of the jury, the verdict was handed down so quickly, unanimously, men outnumbered women. i mean, what can you tell us about what you observed being in the room and what were your expectations about how long this was going to take? >> my expectation was that it would take a long time either way. i will explain why. if there were people on the jury who didn't want to find for e. jean carroll, there would at least be a few jurors who would. they would have to hash it out over some series of

hours. i also thought, given the amount of questions on the verdict form, even though everyone was in agreement that that would take a while. what are the damages that she is owed as compensations both for the defamation claim and separately for the sexual assault? what do we owe this woman in terms of punitive damages, which is not measuring her loss, but how much do we want to punish donald trump? i thought that these deliberations were going to take a while. when i was sitting down, and was told the jury had reached a verdict, my jaw dropped. and i didn't know what to think. but tacopina got what he wanted, and it boomeranged on. him essentially what he said to the jury both in his opening and his closing was, everybody has strong feelings about donald trump and that is okay. there is a place for that, it is called the ballot box. when you enter this courtroom, you have an obligation to the rule of law. it looks like even the juror who listened to tim pool, a

far-right maga, by his own admission, he listened to it. he listened. he upheld the rule of law. he put his political opinions at the courthouse store. and he listened to the evidence, and he found where the evidence took him. which is a liability for donald trump on both of the counts, both battery and defamation. >> rebecca, we are going to talk a lot today, and many days to come about the implications on this as far as donald trump and the republican party. but what should not be lost here is what this does for victims of sexual assault, what it does in terms of women's narratives, and whether and how we believe them. if you had told me 10 years ago, 20 years ago, but a woman was going to come forward with charges that were decades old, she didn't remember when they happened, she didn't scream, she didn't even know or understand what had happened to her in the minutes after this assault. i would've said there is no way that you could litigate that. there is no way. yet e. jean carroll won. how

are you feeling about what happened today? >> i am amazed, as lisa said. the speed of the decision, the fact that it was unanimous, it has been a startling day, and i wrote a column last week, before the decision, obviously, that was talking about how long these things take. the point you just made about how even ten years ago, something like this would be hard to imagine. you know, one of the things that i wrote about in my column is the way that e. jean carroll herself focused on her age. so much that has happened where victories have built on losses, and losses have come after victories. and the kind of sinuous, and decades long lifetime long set of changes that have happened around gender and power, and the ability for people to tell stories and understand and recontextualize our own experiences and that has been so much of what we have seen so far here. and in terms of what she said about victims i think it is really important to know

that this is an unusual legal circumstance. a civil trial, not a criminal trial. and it happened in this one-year window that was opened when kathy hochul, the governor, signed a law permitting people for whom the statute of limitations, when it ran out, to open the civil proceedings and that law was made possible by victims advocates, who worked tirelessly to push for this window to open. all of this came in the wake of what we call the me too movement, which sort of crested in the fall of 2017 after the reporting about harvey weinstein. but it really goes back a year earlier, the release of the pushy tape in which donald trump bragged about being able to grab women against their will. and that was the kind of revelation that caused a storm of other

revelations from people who said that they have been grabbed. then he won an election after that. there is no straight path here. and that is one of the things that i'm thinking about, just how long this history takes to make. how long social proud books take and how the path toward progress, and towards days like today is very winding. keep in mind, this is a man who is a candidate for president again. he could very well be the president again. there is no victory that is the end of the story but there is also no loss that is the end of the story. that is something i thought about a lot. there were a lot of funerals for me too, as if it was the end of a story, and the end of a movement forward. this is a lesson for me that we shouldn't be taking the temperature and announcing the ends, or the beginnings. we are in a long, generations-long process here. it is a very big day and that process. >> it is important, i read the story before the verdict ended almost, i was guarding myself

like okay, this is how people are going to process loss and this trial. when in fact, it ends up being a win. which in some ways, also makes the point in a slightly different fashion. i think that we have a full-screen of the article that you are mentioning, but it is such an important point that progress does not happen in a linear fashion. there are flows, and the arc may be long, but it bans up and down, and up and down, towards justice. the damages awarded to e. jean carroll, $5 million, i didn't realize this, i am going to television law school, you went to actual law school. i didn't realize that the jury could assign a number to, $1 figure if you will, to the wrongs that have been done to a plaintive. can you talk to me a little bit about how unusual it was for e. jean carroll to defer this decision to a jury, and to not file for a particular dollar amount? and also, whether the

sum seems unusually high to you, or how do you think of the 5 million dollar price tag? >> i think that juries sometimes like to find round numbers and work backwards to allocate them. one of the things i thought was so unusual here was that e. jean carroll's lawyers in their closing made a very big deal of the fact that for her, this wasn't about money. they did that for two reasons. one, they were trying to undercut tacopina's narrative that e. jean carroll and her friends conspired to make up a story. first, bring trump down, then to make money and sell books, and third, to be famous. and by saying the amount of money, we are not going to put a price on it, yes we are suing for damages but we will not put a price on it, that is up to you, by saying that they were trying to take the power away from the tacopina narrative. but they were also saying it because it was true. for e. jean carroll it was about getting her name back, getting her reputation back. what surprised me today about the damages that nobody ever said how much carroll lost

-- from her emotional distress, fear, inability to form relationships with men, which is something the psychological expert in the case talked a lot about. yet, the jury assigned $2 million to the assault itself, separate and apart from the reputational losses she has suffered when he defamed her. that, to me, was really notable. >> rebecca, when you talk about the price that trump will pay for this, a lot of people are saying that it has been like litigated before and as you mentioned, i am not of the mind that this is nothing. i think that it is different to have locker room talk, i'm not calling it that, but that was the excuse to come out in a tape days before the election, and to be found liable to the tune of $5 million for sexual assault in a court of law. i wonder if you think that is

also a case of, you know, where one inflection point on sexual us all to may not have resulted in an injustice that some victims would like to have seen. which is to say the 2016 election. this one, i feel like it is different, to be a republican and to have to find something to say on this. >> well, it is interesting because there are a bunch -- first of all, the money matters. because we know that donald trump hates paying people. in general. so many is something that he uses, and throws around in terms of status and power. and he now owes money in a public way. i think that actually matters in terms of even his own self presentation as a powerful man. which has always been tied very closely to his often exaggerated sense of his own wealth. that matters. i think the defamation matters because one of the things that has been a topic and a real issue for donald trump, and for the contemporary american right is the weaponizing of untruths. here he has been held legally

accountable for defamation for lying. i think that matters. as to whether it is going to matter, the clips you play are very interesting because it is clear that at least in this immediate shock of the moment, there is distancing happening. i would, however, point to the fact that there was distancing that also happened after the access hollywood tape. and we forget that. there were a lot of republicans who condemned him in the immediate wake of the access hollywood tape before it became clear that he was going to barrel forward. i wouldn't read too much into the political tillis about what this is going to mean a for his candidacy. i just don't know. i don't know that we can predict that. i definitely agree with you that this matters. in many ways. it matters to have this litigated through the legal system and the process in a federal case by a jury. all of those are very different from the politicized fighting that takes place on fox news, or ideologically, and who can be

accused of coming from the left, or coming from the right. this was a jury, and we know, lisa has talked about this, it was mixed ideologically. it was majority man, i think that it really does, at least temporarily, and i mean forever changed the nature of how this has been litigated, literally. but i wouldn't make any guesses about how it would affect his political future as well as the 2024 election goes. i don't think we can predict that. this is the stage for what could be many more legal challenges he's about to face. >> i guess. i agree with you that it is impossible to know but regardless of what happens, it matters. it matters for victims, it matters for women, it matters for american culture, and society that this happened. thank you for your time, and brilliance, and rebecca -- what if e. jean carroll doesn't win? we know the answer, but it is

important to read this piece because it tells us about the longer movement towards progress. this is in new york magazine. thank you for your time. we have so much more to come on this day of breaking news, including a federal criminal indictment for serial fabricator congressman, george santos. and donald trump's loss important day is making life complicated for people, especially republican people. that is next. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? >> vo: for us, driving around is the only way we can get our baby to sleep, so when our windshield cracked, we needed it fixed right. we went to safelite.com. there's no one else we'd trust. their experts replaced our windshield, and recalibrated our car's advanced safety system. they focus on our safety... so we can focus on this little guy. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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in history on the day nine jurors in new york city unanimously found a former president of the united states civilly liable for sexual abuse and defamation. that former president is donald trump, who also happens to be the favorite to win the 2024 republican presidential nomination. which puts his fellow republicans in an awkward and unusual spot.

former governor, asa hutchison, who is running against trump for the nomination, he thinks trump is a liability for the party. but so far that kind of republican outcry has been mostly limited to hutchinson. then there are the other republican presidential hopefuls like nikki haley and tim scott and ron desantis who are all saying nothing at all. literal silence. and then there is mike pence, who said a lot of different things. without saying much at all. >> i think that that is a question for the american people, but i really can't comment on the judgment in a civil case, i have no knowledge of these matters, and i am sure the president will defend himself in that matter. >> for you personally, do you feel comfortable with someone who was found liable in this case serving as president?

>> i would tell you in my four and a half years serving alongside the president i never heard or witnessed behavior of that nature. >> mike pence appears to still be courting trump supporters even though they erected a gallows on the capitol and wanted to hang him. but who knows? perhaps has discretion on the sexual isak case will bring them all back home. joining us now is former missouri senator and current msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill. clare, it is great to see you. help me, if you would, claire, understand what do you think mike pence is doing here? >> he is just such a coward. listen -- we could spend hours, and days talking about how about donald trump is. but this guy is something else. how do you know what he knows about this man, the fact that he can't tell the truth, the fact that he has no moral character, the fact that he changes wives

like some people changes shirts. like adultery was a way of life for him. how could this evangelical guy who is so pious, and all about his faith really not just say what is the harshest and said, and what mitt romney said today, this is not a man that we want to hold out as an example to our children. this jury just made it official. so the fact that he is not saying anything and china's not talk at all, this is for people hating politicians. they just hated. and pence, he has no shot whatsoever. so it is frankly just discouraging to see him not have the guts to just say it like it is. this man was found to have assaulted, sexually assaulted a woman by a court of law in the united states of america and he has no business in the oval office. >> i completely agree with you. i don't understand why. why run for president? first of all, if

you can't say -- if you can't talk about something like this, how can people depend on you to talk about the stuff that is actually really difficult? secondly, if you think that trump is going to survive it why are you running? because that seems to be the bedrock foundational principle of all of these i can't really talk about its or dead silence that you are hearing from other republican candidates. after the access hollywood tape, trump survived, and one. so you might want to get, why are they running? it's very difficult to understand the logic of not saying anything about anyone that you are running against. >> all these candidates are handcufffed by the math. what is going on here is that they see that there is about 25% of america that has bought everything trump is selling. they absolutely believe trump won the election, they actually think he's capable of telling the truth, he has defrauded about 25% of america. and they are locked in. they are handcuffed to donald trump. by the way, that is not the majority of america. but guess

what? it is the majority of republican primary voters. so they have to try to not offend those people, that are locked in with trump at the same time convincing them that they are kind of like trump, but not really kind of like trump. they want to tread very carefully and very lightly to not really turn away those voters. they have to have any shot of winning the primary. but all of them are cowards. nikki haley, she can't decide whose side she is on. on any given day. >> when you talk about the numbers they are confounding. there were some really weird data that we had from the washington post and abc earlier this week that says on average about 55% of voters feel that trump should face criminal charges for various scandals including overturning the presidential election and mishandling classified documents and january 6th. but

the same poll shows that if the candidacy for president in 2024 where trump and biden, 44% of voters would definitely or probably vote for donald trump. which is more than those who would vote for joe biden. how do you think someone should face criminal charges but also on the same hand want to vote for him in the 2024 election? do you understand that psychology? >> i don't. but i will tell you this poll has gotten a lot of attention and it is just one poll. and it was weird. it was very strange. i do think that the majority of america does not want the chaos that is donald trump. they do want someone that they can be proud of and they want their children to emulate. but the majority of the republican party does not feel that way. they have been laid down a path of ugly and they are perfectly comfortable staying there. that is the big question. >> there is a

question of what happens with trump in 2024 but that is what is the republican party, the leading figures in the gop cannot say what happened in this courtroom, it is devastating for the country, it is devastating for the office of the president, and this person who is found liable of these things should not be president again. what does that say about the gop? >> it says a lot. frankly, if you really step back from this, this jury of mostly men, six men and three women in a speed to determine that credibility of the witnesses. they determined that jean carroll was credible and donald trump wasn't. could you imagine what they doing if a democratic president had this happen to them? could you just see the tops falling off of their heads? they want to focus on the president's son, instead of the president because the president has been a loyal and ethical and moral man, all his life. so it is crazy to me the double standard that the

republican party is engaging in now. and i don't think that it will work out for them in the long run. i don't know when they will recover from this, but if they don't, i do think eventually not anytime soon but eventually, they will fade into a third party in the united states. >> until then they are one of our two parties and we are all in the same boat. fix yourself, gop. claire mcaskill, thank you for your time tonight. >> you got it. >> when we come back, a new mystery around republican congressman george santos, who is now facing federal criminal charges. that, plus the return of tucker carlson, who says that he has a new platform where he could spread his particular brand of, let's call it analysis. that is next. organic veggies. step one: use miracle-gro performance organics container mix. it's full of nutrient-charged raw materials so it's guaranteed to produce twice as much harvest. and that's it. miracle-gro performance organics. all you need to know to gro...organically.

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job update while railing against news outlets. in fact, the focus of this video was tucker carlson warning his audience that the news media is lying, that people are being deceived and they are being manipulated and that all of this is really just a dark eve of misinformation. now, as a reminder, tucker carlson was booted from fox news at least in part due to information uncovered during the dominion voting systems defamation lawsuit against fox news. they claimed that fox, including tucker carlson, peddled misinformation. and fox settled. and tucker carlson now says the news you consume it is a lie. and that he, tucker carlson, is here to presumably tell the truth. so that is the business plan. the idea at the center of that business plan, that the media and journalists are lying to their consumers, except for people like tucker carlson, that idea has been on prominent display in the past few days since a 33-year-old man shot and killed at least eight people at a mall this weekend in allen, texas.

journalists have been battling a stream of misinformation about the shooter as federal and local law enforcement continue to investigate his motives. they say that they suspect the shooter was a neo-nazi sympathizer. a major reason for that suspicion are the countless posts that journalists identified on the social media profile believed to belong to the shooter. the account is littered with rants against women, black people, and jewish people. there is language praising hitler, there are photos of people giving nazi salutes, and there are shirtless pictures presumably of the shooter, that show fresh ink, ss, lightning bolts, and the swastika. despite all of the deeply researched and carefully reported news items about the shooter's social media presence, misinformation about the shooter has proliferated online. the dallas morning news has been tracking the false claims of the shooter being an undocumented immigrant, that he was a gang member, that he yelled all whites must die

during his rampage. none of those things are true. the shooter was born in dallas, county texas. and his apparent white supremacist ideology was not subtle. but all of those lies, they spread on tucker carlson's platform of choice, twitter, including this tweet from congresswoman, marjorie taylor greene, who took the anger and the fear surrounding the shooting and she focused it on migrants at the southern border. again, the texas shooter was an american citizen of hispanic heritage. this is misinformation. spread on twitter. the idea that tucker carlson is trying to sell you, and that news outlets and journalists are the ones purportedly lying to everyone, that is dangerous. over the years we saw the idea bolster right wing violence, and an insurrection, for which we are still seeking accountability. the stuff poisoned the well of our democracy and it is very

hard to clean up. and since elon musk took over we have seen twitter become a place where a lot of these lies and misinformation can spread virtually unchecked. and that is where tucker carlson is apparently headed now. what could go wrong? when we come back, republican congressman george santos has been under scrutiny since journalists from his home district began exposing his lies. today, that scrutiny took a serious turn with reports of impending criminal charges. that's next.

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feed your lawn. feed it. just moments after a jury found donald trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation, republican house speaker, kevin mccarthy, left capitol hill, and walked over to the white house for a meeting with president biden about the debt ceiling. so, when speaker mccarthy came out of that meeting and took questions from reporters, he was probably expecting this question. >> mr. speaker, a jury just found donald trump liable of sexual abuse. do you still support him? >> you know what, i've been in this meeting, let me find out what they said. >> clever. but just as speaker mccarthy tried to push the conversation back to the debt limit negotiations, the reporters in the gaggle, they all got the alert that there was yet another breaking news story involving another high-profile republican in legal jeopardy. >> congressman george santos has just been charged by federal prosecutors. do you believe that he should be removed from congress.

should he be allowed to -- >> i'll look at the charges. >> i'll look at the charges. that was very likely the moment that speaker mccarthy found out that congressman george santos had been charged by federal prosecutors in the eastern district of new york. you're probably familiar with the strange saga of george santos. after being elected to congress, as a republican in a swing district, it was quickly discovered that mr. santos was and continues to be a serial fabulist, a liar of the highest order. over the course of several months, it was discovered that george santos had discovered -- lied about his work history. lied about being jewish. lied about his college volleyball career. he had lied about his mother being in the south tower on 9/11. and the list goes on from there. during that period, reporters uncovered a whole host of shady practices related to george santos's campaign. hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign money had somehow gone unaccounted for. now, federal prosecutors appear

to have found something in santos's past that they believe they can charge him with. he is expected to appear in federal court to face those charges tomorrow afternoon. and that is, yes, a problem for george santos. but it is also a problem for kevin mccarthy. who has been dodging questions about whether santos even belongs in congress, by saying this. >> are you gonna take any action against him at this point or any of these allegations acceptable to you? >> one of the charges against him? is their charge against him? in america today, you're innocent until proven guilty. >> joining me now is brandon,

buck former adviser to speaker paul ryan, and former press secretary to speaker speaker john boehner. brandon, i'm but you're glad you're not working the speaker 's office today. how is kevin mccarthy gonna handle this? he's on the record saying, show me the charges. we're gonna have the charges tomorrow. >> yeah, well, mccarthy's probably gonna be concerned about one thing, the president. unfortunately, we've had a number of incidents where we had both republicans and democrats who have been indicted while in office. in the typical course is that you remove them from their committee, so they can't vote in committee, before the legislation. they still remain in the house until there is a conviction. at that point, they typically resign. the problem is, mccarthy has already removed santos from his committees, because of all of the other things that you just outlined. he doesn't have any real options to punish him at this point. at this point, there's probably not a lot of consequences that he's going to bring. the difference with george santos, this is a person who has no good will with any of his colleagues. he's a pariah. all of his numbers would gladly gone tomorrow. it would not surprise me if kevin mccarthy is actually trying to, at some point soon, bring george santos in and let him know how bleak his future

actually is and that it is probably his best interest to scram. i don't know if you listen to that. that's probably what the prevailing sentiment of the house republican conference is right now. >> i should update our viewers, we have a little bit more from kevin mccarthy on george santos. he is invoking, in this clip, i think we have the sound, of nebraska congressman, jeff fortin barry, who was found guilty of lying in front of a federal grand jury about foreign campaign donations. this is what kevin mccarthy had to say. >> in america, will follow the same pattern we always have. if a person is indicted, they're not on committees, they have the right to vote, but they're going to trial. just like we had a member of fortin barry, he had the same ability. i removed him from committees. he was found guilty. i told him he needed to resign. that is my policy and principles on this, i follow the same. >> there, it sounds like he's going to let santos wait this out while this case moves forward in the court system? i just wonder what the optics

at the very least are going to be for the gop on this, given the just fantastical number of lies that santos has apparently told, and of course, today's news, the titular head of the party has been found civilly liable for sexual assault. >> yeah, absolutely. in mccarthy's defense, that is the precedent. republican and democratic speakers, you wait until there's a conviction to actually remove somebody. to your point, yes, this is an incredible distraction that i think everyone would love to have removed. the problem is, george santos, as we have seen, is not a stable person. and most people who get into these situations, when they say that they're going to be convicted, they say that they have no future, they get the message, and they leave. i just don't we can trust george santos is going to see that that clearly. he has nothing to lose, he's a dead man walking. so, it would not surprise me if he resists all efforts to remove him. even if he gets convicted, it wouldn't surprise me. if he resists that. keep in mind, we've only expelled five people in the entire history of the house of representatives. it never comes to that.

people have resigned countless times because of trouble, but they always realize that it's better for them to go. i don't think we can count on that. at some level, mccarthy is -- doesn't have the ability to push him out unless they bring that almost unprecedented vote to the floor. it may end up being a situation of peer pressure. again, this is someone who is deeply unpopular, members are sick and tired of talking about it, having to answer questions about it. they get tired of answering questions about donald trump, at least he does something for them politically. george santos is nothing but an anvil around their neck. i'm sure they love to find a way to push him out, i doubt that this is somebody who's going to be rational enough to think that it's a good idea to leave. >> i will say, in terms of what they need from george santos, don't they need his vote? given the razor-thin majority

by which mccarthy holds the speaker's gavel, and the looming debt ceiling negotiations, if there are negotiations. the hostage taking -- manufacture by the republican party, vis-à-vis the debt ceiling, don't they need all of the republican soldiers to fall in line, including george santos? >> well, it's a good point. it's certainly something that they're going to think about. i don't think that's that big of a problem at this point. he certainly needed george santos to be on the floor when kevin mccarthy was trying to come speaker. whatever they do on the debt limit is not gonna get every republican anyway. that's gonna have to be bipartisan, and the george santos vote isn't there. i don't think it's going to have a material impact. are there other things they're gonna want to do? like a border bill that they're working on? and they're gonna need to re-vote? yes. one thing that really matters this congress, is the debt limit. that's gonna end up being bipartisan. so, well that's a consideration, i think that the cost of having george santos around is pretty significant, it might just be worth losing that vote for a little while. having a special election and trying to get another republican in that seat when they fill it. >> the longer george santos is around in the public eye, the longer we have to discover the absolutely insane lies he's been spinning about his life, his background, his charities,

whether or not he was a landlord or a volleyball star. the list goes on. we literally don't even have time to detail all of them, but the night is young. brendan, thank you for joining us this evening. >> thanks. >> when we come back, today's historic verdict against a former president of the united states does not necessarily mark the end of that particular story. will there be an e. jean carroll versus donald trump part two? stick around to find out. awh, use priceline. they have package deals no one else has. [son inflates] we can do it! ♪go to your happy price♪ ♪priceline♪ when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there

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the claims that donald trump sexually assaulted her in a department store dressing room in the mid 1990s, this is what then president trump first had to say about it in an interview with the hill. totally lying, i don't know anything about her. i know nothing about this woman. i know nothing about her. she is, it's just a terrible thing that people can make statements like that. i'll say it with great respect. number one, she's not my type. number two, it never happened. it never happened, okay? >> carroll filed this lawsuit against the president a few months later, in november of 2019. the first one. that case remained stalled for years over whether or not trump could be held liable or if he was immune from liability because he was president when he made those comments. but then last month, the case was sent back to a federal court here in new york. to the same courthouse where today's proceedings took place, and before the same judge. same courtroom, same judge. keep an eye out for round two.

that's our show for you for tonight, we'll see you again tomorrow, now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> tonight, where i was planning to not be on tv. i was doing an event that the boston public library, my favorite library and then that verdict came along and we made some emergency arrangements here in boston to get into this coverage tonight. we have lisa birnbach joining us, alex, as the first guest tonight. she, as you know, is e. jean carroll's best friend and the most supportive witness that e. jean carroll had in the trial. she's the very first person who heard e. jean carroll's story. that very day. minutes after it happened. when she had that encounter with donald trump at bergdorf goodman. >> and lisa birnbach's testimony about this, i think, should so much light into the way victims of sexual assault often have a hard time grappling with what they just went through. and lisa birnbach did, i