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we're live outside the federal courthouse on long island where he's scheduled to appear in just hours. also breaking this morning, we are hearing now from e. jean carroll for the first time since former president donald trump was found liable for sexually abusing and defaming the former magazine writer. a jury awarding carroll $5 million after a contentious civil trial, but today carroll says it was never about the money. >> i didn't even hear the money. this is not about the money. this is about getting my name back and that's what we accomplished. i'm overwhelmed with happiness for the women of the country. it's really not about me so much.

it's about every woman. >> we have the latest on both of these developing cases and what santos and trump's legal problems mean for the future of the republican party. let's begin with that breaking news involving new york congressman george santos who is in custody right now, and we've just learned he's facing those 13 federal counts. nbc news correspondent rehema ellis is standing by outside the courthouse. also joining us capitol hill correspondent ali vitali, justice correspondent ken dilanian, and cynthia alksne. santos in custody now, what's next? >> reporter: there's several things ahead for him, but we can tell you that that freshman congressman george santos did turn himself here to the federal courthouse in islip new york. court officials did let us know he is now in custody. as you point out, he is facing these charges. the indictment was returned yesterday by a federal grand jury here in islip, it's a

13-count indictment including charges of fraud, money laundering, theft of public funds and false statements. today's hearing is at 1:00 p.m. this afternoon as he's expected to plead not guilty. some local representatives here are hoping that he will just resign. ana. >> and ken, this is a lengthy indictment. so let's dig deeper into these 13 counts. walk us through what exactly we know about these charges and the investigation. >> so as the u.s. attorney put it, santos is accused of using political contributions to line his pockets. he's accused of unlawfully applying for unemployment benefits that should have gone to new yorkers. and he's accused of lying to the house of representatives. this indictment includes seven counts of wire fraud, three counts of money laundering and one count of theft of public funds. specifically santos is charged with defrauding campaign funders by using political contributions to fund his lavish lifestyle. he's accused of telling certain

contributors that they could give large sums of money that went beyond campaign donation limits. he's also charged with defrauding the covid unemployment program in new york receiving nearly $25,000 in benefits he wasn't entitled to, and he's charged with making false statements on the financial disclosure reports listing his sources of income that he's required to file as a member of congress. he's actually accused of listing $750,000 in income he did not receive. i've never seen that before, and i think that suggests we have not seen the last of charges because he also loaned his campaign a lot of money. that is not mentioned in this indictment. >> interesting, cynthia, let's just, again, emphasize what charges he is facing, seven counts of wire fraud, three counts of money laundering, one count of theft of public funds, and two counts of making false statements to the house of representatives. put that into perspective. just how serious are these charges? >> well, they're very serious. it's really interesting

indictment. it's like a kitchen sink indictment because a lot of these things aren't even related. the lying to the house of representatives is totally unrelated to the campaign finance and the stealing of the covid money. but i think ken makes a very important point that everybody should focus on, and that is when they charge him with overstating the $750,000 in income, what we're talking about there is in the future he's going to have to justify where he came up with a loan of $750,000 to his campaign. so i would expect a superseding indictment at some point in the future. going back to the indictment itself, the wire fraud charges which are spelled out, you know, wire fraud basically means you were defrauding people and you were sending money through the banks. you know, you made a wire transfer of $25,000 from here to here, and it was fraudulent. those are not hard to prove. he's got a big problem here.

this is somebody who needs to get serious about a plea agreement very quickly or he's going to spend a lot of time in jail. >> ali some republicans were already calling for santos to resign before we got these indictments, so what's the word there on capitol hill? do you think the scope of these charges are now going to push any of the republicans who are on the fence like kevin mccarthy, the house speaker, to make a firm decision here? >> reporter: look, so far, no, ana. in part that might be because when the speaker came back from the white house meeting on the debt ceiling yesterday, he used that as an excuse for why he wasn't ready to talk about santos' future here. we did ask him directly if he thought santos should resign. nevertheless, this continues the idea that the new york delegation of republicans, people like mike lawler are at odds with the speaker on this because the differences in their reaction from yesterday. look at this. >> there's a clock ticking and george santos should have resigned in december. he should have resigned in

january. he should have resigned yesterday, and maybe he'll resign today. >> he should resign. i've said that repeatedly, and obviously these charges confirm what i've said from the beginning. >> with george santos, i did not put him on any committees. in america we'll just follow the same pattern we always have, right? if a person is indicted they're not on committees. they have the right to vote but they have to go to trial. >> reporter: and so we'll see if speaker mccarthy's answers changes today in light of the fact that santos is actually in custody and we'll see him later in court this afternoon. it is a real reminder that mccarthy's number game here in congress has everything to do with what he's saying or rather not saying about the future of congressman george santos. we watched, for example, just two weeks ago how mccarthy was able to get that debt ceiling bill through his conference by one vote. it's a reminder that new york is the majority maker for mccarthy, and he needs every person with an r next to their name to be here in this building. so santos still has leverage in that way even though he's clearly in legal trouble right

now. >> mccarthy needed every vote just to become speaker, right? it went through 15 different rounds. are you saying he needs santos? >> reporter: yes, and frankly, santos has reminded mccarthy of this at a few various moments. just over the last few weeks there was a day where santos seemed to say that maybe he wouldn't vote for the debt ceiling bill. then of course he came back around and said he would, but it's a reminder yet again that santos does hold power in this conference when -- and we've been saying this from the day we started those first of the 15 rounds of ballots for mccarthy to become speaker -- in a conference like this one where the majority is so razor thin it gives every republican house member to be like a senator joe manchin. they all get to be king makers and they all get to have their day where every vote matters. so santos' vote regardless of the legal troubles still really matter here and it might be an explanation why we see mccarthy still dragging his feet saying

this is for the voters and the courts to decide, and not he himself wading into the fray saying what several in the new york delegation have been saying for a while, which is santos should resign. >> santos has already said he will run for re-election. ken, i just want to walk through what reporters have uncovered about santos, some of these things he's admitted to. lying about where he went to school, lying about where he worked, lying about being jewish, lying about his athletic accomplishments, lying about raising money for a homeless veteran's dog, lying to donors, lying to investors, lying about his campaign finances. that list is not even all inclusive. do you think there's more we don't know? >> i absolutely do, ana. as cynthia was alluding to, it would not surprise anyone who's familiar with how federal prosecutions work to see a superseding indictment in this case. there are things that we know, for example, the fbi was asking about such as that alleged scheme to defraud that homeless

veteran over that money for his dog that are not in this indictment, nor is there any explanation for the source of the funds of that $750,000 he said he earned, some of which was loaned to his campaign. so those are unanswered questions that appear to be very questionable, and it would not surprise anybody to see future charges along those lines. >> we'll let you guys dig into your reporting and come back if you get new information. rehema ellis, ali vitali, and ken dilanian, thank you all. cynthia alksne stick with us. e. jean carroll's first comments since a jury found former president donald trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation. plus, what donald trump's latest legal troubles and the charges george santos is now facing may say about the state of the republican party. also, we're breaking down a new inflation report out this morning. could your wallets be in for a little relief yet from that red hot inflation ahead of a red hot

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♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ we are watching the fallout from that landmark decision in the civil trial of former president donald trump where a jury of six men and three women unanimously found trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation of e. jean carroll to the tune of $5 million. let's bring in msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin who was in the courtroom every day of this trial and also with us nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard, back with us also former federal prosecutor cynthia alksne, thank you all for being here. so lisa, this is the first time a former president has been found guilty or liable in this case for sexual abuse and defamation. talk about this historic moment and just your reaction to how this all ended in this trial.

>> i was astonished, ana, honestly, to see this jury convict -- i'm sorry, hold donald trump liable, and i want to be really clear about the distinction between the two. it's a civil trial. he was held liable. there is no criminal conviction. however, as joe tacopina said to the jury in his closing, the impact of holding him liable was a condemnation of him as a sexual assaulter, and that's not to be treated lightly or understated. were it not for all the other things we know about donald trump, i expect that the impact of this verdict would be devastating, and yet, we sit here today in 2023 with this twice impeached former president who is now a subject of at least four criminal investigations, two by the special counsel, one in fulton county, georgia, and then the ongoing case by the manhattan d.a.'s office. it's not clear this is really registering with people that we have a former president, as you

noted, who has been found liable of sexually assaulting a woman, who is one of his 26 accusers of sexual harassment and assault. >> i do want to get into that angle here as we continue this conversation, but first let's talk more about the legal aspects here. and also, i want to make sure we give a voice to e. jean carroll because she is now speaking out after this verdict, cynthia, earlier here on "morning joe" carroll talked about the notion of a perfect victim. listen to this. >> we did away with the perfect victim concept, the perfect victim always screams. she always goes to the police. she always writes the date in her diary. she always folds up and is a sad person. for every woman in the country, this is for you, i think this will help you all be believed. >> cynthia, you've litigated

quite a few sex crimes cases, your reaction to that? >> well, i think it's a really important point. that is watching and listening to this trial -- and by the way, lisa's coverage is just amazingly on point -- but watching this trial was like jumping back in time because it was joe tacopina was attacking her in some 1970s way, and she stood up to him. she was so brave, and i think that is going to make a difference for lots of women coming forward because what this jury has said is, yes, you were dragged through the mud, but yes, we believe you. and it gives power to other women to be willing to go forward with that because that's my experience in trying cases. that's what rape and sexual assault victims want. they want someone to say to them it's going to be worth it to go through the trial. they're going to believe you, and that's so important, and e. jean carroll has promised them in a way and proved to them that it's possible.

i was so impressed with her on "morning joe" this morning because she recognized this was not a case about her. she was other people focused. she was focused on other victims. she is a quality person who has done all sexual assault victims a favor, and i just want to say one thing about this rape versus sexual abuse discussion that we're all having. in a civil case and in civil cases there isn't the detail about exactly what body part touched what body part that you might have in a criminal case. that just didn't happen, and so the jury believed she was assaulted sexually. that's the important thing. that's the key point. e he said he didn't even know her. she said he assaulted me, and they believed her. whether he assaulted her with one body part or another is not important. what's important is they believed her, and they called him a liar. >> and that belief is so important as well as that

justice in this case because as we've reported, the data shows so many victims or urged say survivors of sexual abuse, sexual assault don't even report the crime because of fear of retaliation, fear of not being believed by law enforcement, and other reasons. vaughn, i do want to ask you about the reaction among supporters of trump. you're in new hampshire where trump will be later today. so far he's reacted saying this verdict is a disgrace. he called it, quote, a very unfair trial. he's still the republican front runner for 2024, is he not? any sign that this changes given the verdict? >> reporter: and let's be clear, in 2016 and 2020, despite the access hollywood tape and despite more than a dozen women coming forward with allegations of sexual assault or sexual harassment by donald trump, millions of americans clearly prioritized other facets of donald trump's political offerings over those allegations of sexual assault and sexual

harassment. what we have now is a jury finding donald trump liable for sexual abuse and when we're talking about the extent to which this will change the trajectory of this political race, morning consult polling showed him with his largest lead since announcing his candidacy in november. 60% to ron desantis's 19%. what you see is a quiet republican field. you have not heard from nikki haley. you have heard a subtle defense by mike pence of donald trump suggesting he hadn't seen this type of behavior over his four and a half years of serving alongside donald trump. asa hutchinson is a 2024 presidential gop candidate, and he did come out and say this was behavior that demonstrates yet again why donald trump should not be president. but largely from capitol hill to across the country, you heard little from republicans pushing back against donald trump, despite what this jury found. now, we should note tonight he

is engaing in a town hall here in new hampshire. over the course of the last 12 hours, ana, he has put out numerous social media posts continuing to suggest that e. jean carroll is part of a hoax, is a liar, and of course when we say that, we have to also note that a jury literally found him liable for defamation for making those exact very claims. but we should expect nothing different from donald trump, and now the question here to voters is to the extent whether it be in the republican primary or then the general election, does this move the needle and does this push some folks away from being able to support him into the future. >> as you get a chance to talk to those voters following this verdict, let us know what you're hearing. i do want to play a little bit more of what e. jean carroll had to say earlier about an intersection she had with trump's attorney joe tacopina. he came to congratulate me and i

said he did it and you know it. >> trump's team is saying they will appeal this. how do you see this moving forward from here? >> you have to differentiate between the merits and what trump sees as a victory by kicking the can down the road by delaying. you know that for trump as well as i do, delay is often a win, and particularly -- >> this case was years. >> this case was years in the making. she originally brought her first defamation case in november of 2019. that case actually still hasn't been litigated and e. jean carroll has to decide whether she wants to press forward with the defamation case based on her claims while he was president about her. on the appeal, i think the merits of the appeal are extraordinarily weak. they have to do with the judge's decision to exclude dna evidence, mostly on the ground that trump himself didn't cooperate with that until joe tacopina came into the case in february. there are a number of other

pretrial rulings that joe tacopina or trump's defense team wants to challenge. i don't think any of them constitute reversible error, but for donald trump, if he can delay this long enough until the presidential campaign, use it as a political talking point and even potentially delay it until the inauguration when he thinks he might become president, that for him is a win, ana. >> lisa, thank you so much for reporting with us and all the work you did during this trial to cover it for our network and thank you all, cynthia, as well as vaughn for being with us. up next on ana cabrera reports, is president biden willing to go where no president has gone before with the debt ceiling. the possible constitutional secret weapon he's weighing. and as if potential economic catastrophe from that wasn't enough, add inflation to the mix. we're all feeling it but is it easing?

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back now with breaking economic news, this morning inflation cooling to its lowest level in two years, april's consumer price index showed inflation rose by 4.9% year-over-year. now, that's better than economists expected. still higher than any of us want, of course, but not as high as we feared. and joining us is nbc news business and data reporter brian cheung. brian, this is good news finally, but month over month,

prices are still going up. it's still so high for a lot of people trying to pay their bills. explain all this and how it impacts the everyday american. >> yeah, it's a little bit confusing because the number's going down but prices still going up. let me add a little bit of context here. prices in april went up 4.9% compared to this time last year, which is a slowdown from the 5% pace that we had seen march of this year compared to march of last year. again, prices are still going up, but the rate of those price increases are indeed slowing down. so where did we see the price pressures in the month of april, if you break it down by category, we saw shelter, the cost of just putting a roof over your head increasing between march and april, energy prices also increased because of the gasoline prices going back up, although not nearly at the levels we saw last summer. interesting to see some encouraging signs on food prices, which didn't change between february and march and also didn't change between march and april. we saw food at home actually go down. you take a look at things like pork, milk, eggs, all those

categories actually seeing price declines between march and april. perhaps a bit of welcome relief for american households. >> brian cheung, i appreciate it. thank you. later this hour, new york city where he'll keep up his push to try to raise the debt ceiling without the spending cuts republicans want, and it comes after a meeting. they seem no closer to reaching a deal. they do have another meeting planned for friday. kayla tausche and democratic congressman from new york, joe crowley. kayla starting with you and the reporting, any movement forward? >> well, the movement is that talks are happening. that's more than has been happening for the last three plus months. it happens as the clocks are ticking. the president says that the staffs will be meeting as early as yesterday evening, principals have been invited back to the white house on friday, and so

they're going to try to find some common ground. i think it's really telling that in over an hour of conversation and discussion yesterday that the top four congressional leaders and the president did not arrive at that common ground. here is president biden and house speaker kevin mccarthy in their own words following the meeting. >> america is not a deadbeat nation. we pay our bills and avoiding default is a basic duty of the united states congress. >> everybody in this meeting reiterated the positions they were at. i didn't see any new movement. we are ones who raise the debt limit. we've sent it to the senate. we've sat with the president. i tried to for 97 days he said no. >> so the entrenchment is real, but can the two sides reach some sort of agreement that allows either side to save face and maintain those positions amid all sorts of political pressure. that's what they're going to try to do in the next three weeks. it's notable that president

biden and senate minority leader mitch mcconnell both committed that the u.s. would not default on its debt, no matter what happens, but speaker mccarthy did not make that same promise in his comments. and just this morning, ana, we're getting comments from the white house in response to that inflation report saying that the best thing that they can do for the economy is to avoid a default and that house republicans are the ones that are essentially putting the economy on the line. >> kayla tausche, thank you so much for your reporting. congressman, president biden did say, quote, he is absolutely certain a default can be avoided, but speaker mccarthy isn't budging, so who do you see giving in? >> well, i've been around that table quite a few times myself, and i can say i'm very confident that something will be worked out between now and then. whether or not it is something that the republican conference in the house will accept is really a problem for kevin mccarthy at this point in time. there's no doubt that our nation needs to pay its debts.

i think the president's absolutely right there. the republican conference voted three times during the trump administration without any hostage taking or without any conditions to raise the debt ceiling. it only seems that when democrat that republicans will not play along with that. it's unfortunate because only the american people, the economy and the world economy will be affected if we ever dare to not pay our debts. >> yes, they did raise it during the trump administration, but i will say they weren't clean bills, that is without any other kind of legislation tied to those debt ceiling increases. what about the idea that this president could just bypass congress and use the 14th amendment to pay the bills. this is an amendment that says the u.s. debt shall not be questioned, so some legal scholars have suggested that gives the president authority to bypass congress in this case. could that be the way to go? >> i think everything's on the table, quite frankly. this is not something that should be toyed around with and

so i think the president will use every tool in his shed to move this ball forward. and i think that's the right thing to do. i think that the 14th amendment is something that they're seriously looking at. but even before we get to that, i think really cooler heads need to prevail. look, looking at the house bill that passed over a ten-year period they would cut a half a trillion dollars from veterans. you know, a lot of those republicans who voted for that bill, many from new york, they're not happy with the bill that passed out of the house, they cannot be. so you know, it's no wonder that mike lawler is actually up with the president in westchester county today. that's a seat that the president won in 2020 but that mike lawler won in 2022, a republican. it's going to be tough for him to hold onto that seat. it's no wonder he's going to that event with the president today. >> former congressman joe crowley, we'll be listening to what the president says at that event. i really appreciate your insights. thanks for sharing your perspective with us.

>> thank you, ana. up next, new urgency at the border with covid restrictions ending tomorrow. former homeland security secretary jeh johnson will be here to talk about the thousands of migrants crossing into the country as president biden says this. >> it's going to be chaotic for a while. and it's an example -- goes tor gardening basics that... aren't so basic. the entertainer... her place might look expensive. don't let it fool you. and me, the lounger... i get just what i need with a tap on the wayfair app. get outdoorsy for way less at wayfair. ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ introducing astepro allergy. now available without a prescription. astepro is the first and only 24-hour steroid-free spray. while flonase takes hours, astepro starts working in 30 minutes. so you can [ spray, spray ] astepro and go.

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migrants were apprehended crossing the border yesterday with processing centers stretched to the limit. here's what i mean, more than 27,000 people are right now in a space built for a little over 18,000 migrants. that's according to three sources. also, they tell nbc news that the biden administration is preparing a memo for border patrol to release migrants into the u.s. without court dates or the ability to track them. nbc news correspondent guad venegas is live from san diego, california, with more now. homeland security secretary mayorkas is set to talk in the next hour about how the administration is handling this crisis and what's coming. what steps are they taking and what are you seeing there along the border today? >> reporter: ana, it's interesting also because we are expecting mayorkas to give more information on rules to expel migrants that enter the united states illegally. that's one of the things that he said they would be communicating when he speaks again with all these new immigration policies that will be coming to replace

title 42. so here at the border, we've had this camp here for days with more migrants arriving. yesterday we were in tijuana to see what the shelters were like. in fact, we were at that port of entry where the legal way to seek asylum takes place, and as you saw yesterday, it was quite empty because there isn't very many appointments given. behind me, you can see hundreds of migrants, a camp that continues to grow, of individuals that come across the first border wall to then turn themselves in to border patrol and seek asylum. they say they're forced to do this after trying to use the app, some say for weeks, some say for months, which has not worked for them. this is what they do. last night for the first time in the last few days, it rained, so a lot of them spent the night in the cold and also getting wet. here's a conversation i had with a migrant just minutes ago. >> it was terrible because all my things and with the rain wet -- >> are you wet right now? are you wet? >> yes.

my jacket. >> everything is wet? >> my t-shirt and shoes. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> how long did it rain for? >> how long, six hours. >> a large part of the night it was raining. >> large, yes. >> reporter: and this camp has been growing. yesterday when we were on the tijuana side, i was able to look at it from far away. i counted 3 to 400 migrants. it is larger today, and i should add, ana, that she told me she's here with her husband who is at a different camp. she's telling me that now they're setting up another camp up the hill for a lot of the men that are arriving here at the border, so the numbers are growing. i should add one more thing, in the last few days we've been here, these individuals that have arrived have gotten food and water from a lot of the ngos that come here to give that to them. we have not seen a lot of food distributed. we've heard that border patrol

has distributed food, but most of the food that we've seen get districted to the migrants that have arrived come from the ngos that come here daily to check on them. pretty soon this could become a humanitarian crisis. >> no doubt about it. thank you so much, guad venegas, reporting for us from san diego, california. for more, we are joined by former homeland security secretary, jeh johnson. it's always good to see you. i want you to take a listen to what president biden said last night when asked about whether this administration is prepared for the end of title 42. listen. >> we're doing all we can, and we've gotten overwhelming cooperation from mexico. we also are in the process of setting up offices in columbia and other places where you can -- where someone seeking asylum can go first. it remains to be seen. it's going to be chaotic for a while. >> is that a good enough answer? >> well, the president, i believe, is appropriately

setting expectations here. the administration has come to this idea of regional processing centers. they're starting in columbia and guatemala. i think that's an excellent idea. you have to give people who are desperate for a new life an alternate safe legal path to apply for asylum, and if they qualify, settle in the united states as opposed to giving them no alternative but to head for the rio grande and the southern border. that investment in regional processing centers is going to take some time. you need resources. you need personnel. you need countries to agree to have regional processing centers in their own backyards. so that is a long-term solution. with the end of title 42, we need to appreciate title 42 is a public health authority. dhs does not control title 42. it's an emergency authority that was put in place three years ago

in the depths of covid. it was bound to end sooner or later, and the administration has been sending the message, and i think they need to continue to send a message that there's a right way and a wrong way to come here. if you come here the wrong way, we will use our resources and our enforcement authorities to send you back. and they are doing that, i think it would be a good idea to continually everyone size the numbers of people who are actually being sent back. >> we do know that there were about 2.5 million sent back because of title 42 and their ability to use that authority, and i think that's one of the big reasons there's this huge concern about what happens when that authority goes away. we just reported according to three sources 11,000 migrants were apprehended at the border just yesterday. >> there's a lot of people. the problem is much bigger than it was when i was secretary seven, eight, nine years ago.

in my day, a number over 1,000 in a day was for me considered a bad day. the problem is bigger because the countries contributing to the problem, that list is much longer. venezuela, haiti, nicaragua, cuba, in addition to central america. and fortunately our resources for dealing with this are larger. but still, you simply cannot absorb along the southern border numbers at this level, and there does need to be a more coordinated effort to resettle migrants in the interior of the country and not just leave it to governor abbott and governor desantis to decide to send people to port authority bus terminal. >> begin to release migrants into the country without court dates. republicans will point to that and say look, catch and release. do you support this move?

>> that's not good because even when the numbers are high, we should -- i.c.e. should be able to give a migrant a notice to appear at a specific date and a specific place so that we can track them and they have an expectation that they have to show up for immigration court. if we're releasing people without giving them ntas and without tracking them, that's a big problem, and it suggests to me that we've got to do a much better job at resourcing and doing our best to keep track of who's entering our country. you know, there's -- ana, this issue is overly politicized. it's very emotional. frankly, i believe there's a lot of racist rhetoric around this, but i do also believe that in the most powerful nation on earth, the american public should have the expectation that we can track who's entering our country, and we can to some degree secure our perimeter.

so this is going to take a lot of resources. ultimately i think we will get control of this situation once it settles down over the next days or weeks, but secretary mayorkas and the administration do continually need to send a message that we have our enforcement authorities now that title 42 is gone, and if you come here illegally we will send you back. >> thank you so much for coming on and sharing your thoughts. you know, i could pick your brain about this issue a lot longer, that's for sure. i think i only got through half my questions, if that. thank you so much, secretary jeh johnson. coming up here, over a year after her husband's death, a widow publishes a children's book about grief. well, now she's facing murder charges. but first, the elephant in the room, the state of the gop after the indictment of congressman george santos and after a jury finds trump liable for sexual assault.

will these legal issues cause any electoral consequences for republicans?

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(vo) request a cash offer at opendoor dot com back to our top stories this morning, congressman george santos now in federal custody facing a 13-count indictment just after former president trump was found liable in the e. jean carroll case. so what do these legal developments mean for the future of their party, the gop? joining us now two msnbc political analysts, two former republican big league players, michael steele, he's a former rnc chairman as well as former florida republican congressman david jolly. thanks, guys, so much for being here. congressman jolly, let's first start with the george santos news. 13 federal counts, fraud, money laundering, theft of public funds, false statements. what kind of pressure does this put on speaker mccarthy to confront this behavior? >> certainly a lot of pressure.

look, george santos is somebody that has been an unknown fraud, if you will, from the time he arrived in washington. the question is what can the house actually do? the house does have the authority to expel a member. there is not strong precedent for expelling based just on indictment. often what you see is a member will be removed from committees, removed from republican conference, if they do not otherwise choose to resign, which george santos could. berry from nebraska and three other members in the previous few years have faced indictment, they stayed in the house, they resigned once they were convicted, and in a case where a member does not resign upon conviction, they would be somewe journey for santos. the political reality is this, though, kevin mccarthy needs george santos' vote and he will be allowed to vote on the house floor, mccarthy knows that, i don't suspect mccarthy will do anything right away against george santos.

>> look at this. santos and trump gobbling up all the headlines this morning. and for all the wrong reasons. you can see trump found liable for sexual abuse, that's the new york post, what do you think these players' futures look like in the republican party as you look into 2024 and the crystal ball? >> strong. look, this is the bed the party has made. what i find, the irony for me is that everyone is sort of, you know, to david's point, you know, sort of praying and hoping that, you know, santos kind of disappears and they try to distance themselves. i'm, like, wait a minute, you got this guy who now has been indicted on this end, you want to distance yourself from, but then you got this other die who has been indicted and now found guilty of basically sexual assault and you're, like, embracing him.

so the party is even at conflict with itself with respect to the two criminal elements in front of them. so -- >> i don't get it. i don't get it. >> i don't get it either! it makes no sense to me. it is not logical. >> isn't a wrong a wrong a wrong? this is what we hear from some inside the republican party as they were asked for their reaction to the e. jean carroll decision. listen to this. >> i think the new york legal system is off the rails when it comes to donald trump. >> i don't think it is going to make a difference to trump supporters or trump's opponents. >> the fact is i do not think he can win the presidency. >> i hope the jury of the american people reach the same conclusion about donald trump. he just is not suited to be president of the united states. >> in my 4 1/2 years serving alongside the president, i never heard or witnessed behavior of that nature.

>> congressman, what does that mashup tell you? >> a bunch of hot garbage from republicans today. call it what it is. it is not hard to take the side of a victim in a case where you know donald trump was just found liable for sexual assault. and that includes the likes of those being silent. ron desantis and others, it is not hard to say i'm glad e. jean carroll had her day in court. and i think donald trump should be held accountable. you can still hug his politics closely if you want to out of partisan loyalty. i think what you saw from cornyn is an interesting angle, which is he does not think that donald trump can be president of the united states. that is not a qualitative moral argument against the president that they should be making. it is a political one that says in a general election, someone now who is faced liability, culpability for sexual assault is a bad general election candidate. >> michael, do you think any of this news will rattle donald trump's base at all. he's about to go forward with this town hall tonight. >> no. it is not going to rattle him.

it reinforces it. they lean into it. they see him as the victim here. they do not believe that he sexually assaulted e. jean carroll. just as they don't believe he had anything to do with january 6th, that the folks who rallied to support donald trump on that day are patriots. there is no situation. there is no daylight, despite what cornyn says and what mitt romney said, there is no daylight between the base and donald trump. and the judgment the american people are going to make is going to be after donald trump is the nominee of the party for the general election in november of next year. so, that's the point. this all leads to the initial most important point is not what happens in november 24, it is the fact that donald trump with all of this happening around him right now with more to come, by the way, ana, as you know, right, there are other -- >> several, yes, several cases still out there. >> exactly. he will be the nominee of the

party. and so that speaks volumes about any separation between trump no matter how much cornyn beats his chest about donald trump not being fit for the presidency. you're going to vote for him. you're going to make him your nominee, so it doesn't matter. >> he seems to think he will benefit in the fund-raising after this verdict in the e. jean carroll case. michael steele, david jolly, thank you for being here. i appreciate the conversation. up next, an author poured her grief into a children's book after her husband's death. now, she's charged with allegedly pouring fentanyl into his moscow mule. into his moscow mule. d is the only way we can get our baby to sleep, so when our windshield cracked, we needed it fixed right. we went to safelite.com. there's no one else we'd trust. their experts replaced our windshield, and recalibrated our car's advanced safety system.

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a utah mother wrote a children's book about grief after her husband's death. well, now she has been charged in his murder. here's nbc's erin mclaughlin. >> hey there, well, kouri richins was plugging her children's book about grief, publicly claiming to be mourning her husband, police in utah allege she was hiding a shocking and murderous secret. >> my husband passed away unexpectedly last year. >> reporter: a month after promoting her children's book inspired by her husband's death, the widowed mother of three is charged with his murder. >> so you actually wrote this book with your children. >> i did. >> reporter: police arrested kouri richins on monday outside of park city, utah, alleging the

33-year-old poisoned her husband eric last march with a lethal dose of fentanyl. >> three boys he loved more than anything. >> reporter: according to court documents, police were called to the couple's home at 3:22 in the morning and found him unresponsive on the floor at the foot of his bed. an autopsy later revealing he had five times the lethal dosage of illicit fentanyl in his system. kouri told responding officers she made eric a moscow mule, which he drank in the bedroom earlier that night. before she went to sleep in her child's room. while she claimed she didn't touch her phone until she called 911, investigators say they found phone records indicating she sent and received messages that night, which were later deleted. her seemingly heart felt sentiment expressed while promoting her book now seen in a very different light. >> it is just comforting to them to know that, you know, they're not living this life alone. like dad is still here, it is just in a different way. >> reporter: according to the charging documents, kouri purchased fentanyl from an acquaintance last february. which she says was for an

investor asking for some of the michael jackson stuff. days later, following the couple's valentine's dinner, eric became very ill and told a friend he thought his wife was trying to poison him. prosecutors are allege kouri then purchased more fentanyl and less than a month later, eric was dead. and kouri claiming to be grief stricken, dedicated this book to her husband, calling him a wonderful father. >> i took things that my kids have said to me this last year and we kind of articulated it and put it into a story. >> reporter: kouri is charged with one count of aggravated murder and three additional felony drug charges. she has yet to enter a plea and her attorney declined to comment at this time. richins is expected in court next week. back to you. >> erin mclaughlin, thank you. thank you for being with us. that does it for us. jose diaz-balart picks up our coverage right now. good morning. 11:00 a.m. eastern, 8:00 a.m. pacific. i'm jose diaz-balart. breaking a short time ago,