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good to be with you. i'm katy tur. george santos is once again a free man. at least for now. after being arrested this morning, the gop congressman from long island was arraigned in a suffolk county courtroom and released on a $500,000 bond. santos pleaded not guilty, and he says he'll hold a news conference to address the charges we're watching and waiting for that, and we'll go there once it begins. federal prosecutors argue he is guilty. they say santos is a liar and a cheat and that they've got the goods to prove it. in the 13 count indictment unsealed today, the feds charged him with wire fraud and money laundering, stealing public funds and lying to the house of representatives. all told, george santos could be facing many years in prison, not to mention the loss of his congressional seat eventually. the gop speaker of the house with his four-vote margin over the democrats needs santos on

the floor. so kevin mccarthy told reporters today, let him have his day in court. joining me now is rehema ellis outside the courthouse in central islip, new york, garrett haake for the action out there, and nbc news just and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian. bring us inside the courtroom where george santos pleaded not guilty. >> reporter: katy, inside that packed courtroom, george santos stood with his attorney and he, as you pointed out, pleaded not guilty. according to our producer when asked how he pleaded -- >> let me interrupt you for one second because we're looking at a live picture of reporters running up to george santos. i think he's going to be addressing the cameras. we're going to listen for just a second, everyone hold on.

>> there is a podium over there for you. can you please go to it. >> let him go, let him move. >> how are you feeling, congressman? >> make a hole so he can get through. make a hole. make a hole. watch your step. you're going to fall. you're going to fall. watch your step. watch your step. >> how are you feeling congressman? >> here's the mic stand back there. >> we're trying to get to it, but your colleagues are making it difficult, sir. >> come on. move. >> what you're watching right now is the assembled press from frankly all over the country and other parts of the world, trying to navigate all at once to get george santos to the podium,

where there are a number of microphones placed that are connected to the cameras that we're seeing, so we could actually hear what he's saying, so work with us as george santos does a penguin walk toward that microphone stand. it should be but a few more seconds, hopefully, if these reporters move out of the way. let's listen, we can hear a little bit. >> just be careful. >> leave him alone. leave him alone. there are worse crimes than what he's being accused of. >> george, what's going on here? did you raise money for a -- >> let me just add, so george santos had a indictment unsealed

against him, 20 pages, 1 counts in it. multiple counts of wire fraud, seven counts of wire fraud. three counts of money laundering. one count of theft of public funds, that's for taking unemployment benefits when he was not employed. he was making $120,000 a year from a florida investment bank and two counts of materially making false statements to the house of representatives. in the indictment, the u.s. attorney of the eastern district of new york wrote, he used political contributions to line his pockets. soliciting at least $50,000 from donors to a fake super pac, and then using that money for personal debts and expenses including luxury goods and designer clothing. i think we can hear now, let's listen. >> you guys let him go to the

podium. make a hole, make a hole. >> look, if you guys don't behave, there's no way you're going to get information back to the people. if you make way and act like, you know, civilized people, i know a lot of you by first name. we talk all the time. let's get to the podium, make some space, and then we'll address. >> can you all agree, make some space. >> george santos, sounding like the voice of reason there to the gathered press, please move out of the way so i can get to the podium, and then i will speak to you, he says. it looks like that is now finally happening, so again, prosecutors say he unlawfully applied for unemployment benefits that should have gone to new yorkers who lost their jobs in the pandemic. they also allege $24,000 he was taking in when he was actually making, as i said, $120,000 from a florida investment company.

intrigueingly, where the money he donated to his campaign, he says it came from his bank account, prosecutors say these assertions are false, he didn't have $750,000 salary from the divulger organization, which, by the way, is his last name, and he did not have between 1 and $25 million in dividends. these assertions were false. he did not have that money. we are left asking, what else might prosecutors have on george santos, that they haven't revealed to us. let's listen. >> i need to address and defend myself. we have an indictment. we have the information that the government wants to come after me on. and i'm going to comply. i have been complying throughout this entire process. i have no desire not to comply at this point. they have been gracious, now i'm

going to have to go and fight to defend myself. the reality is it's a witch hunt because it makes no sense that in four months, four months, five months, i'm indicted. you have joe biden's entire family receiving deposits from nine family members receiving money from foreign destinations into their bank accounts. it's been years of exposing a lot of you here have reported on them, and yet no investigation is launched into them. i'm going to fight -- >> what about you. >> i'm getting back to that. i'm going to fight my battle. i'm going to deliver. i'm going to fight the witch hunt. i'm going to take care of clearing my name. i look forward to doing that. >> did you take unemployment? >> hold on. >> what do you say to that? >> i would like the opportunity for some of you guys to ask some questions in an orderly fashion, and we'll start right here. go ahead. >> why would you apply for unemployment benefits when you had a job making $120,000 a

year? >> rachel, this is part of my defense. this is inaccurate information, and i will get to clear my name during the pandemic it wasn't very clear. i don't understand where the government is getting their information, but i'll present my facts. >> prosecutors say that you got over $20,000 in unemployment benefits, sir. how is that acceptable? >> ma'am, like i said, my employment was changed during the time. i don't understand where the government's coming from. i'll present my defense. >> and one last follow up. >> what evidence do you have that they don't have? >> i have plenty of evidence that we will now be sharing with the government in this case to make sure that i can defend my name. >> congressman, are you planning on running for reelection? >> yes, i am. >> do you think you can win reelection? >> why should anybody believe you now? >> i will prove myself innocent and we'll move from there. >> congressman, did you take -- >> go ahead. >> i'm sorry for blocking, the $750,000 they say you reported

that wrongly. do you have any comment to that? >> like i said, i will be delivering all the finances of my company. delivering all my finances to them to dispel their accusations. >> congressman -- >> and again, you will not resign. >> i will not resign. >> did you take campaign donations and use that money to buy expensive suits? >> no, i did not. >> do you think you'll win reelection? >> that's not up for me to know. elections are very tricky. it's up to the people. i trust them to decide what's best for them. >> you've lied in the past, what do you think people will believe you. >> i want to be judged by work i do in the body, and i stay committed to that. i have to go back and vote. tomorrow we have one of those consequential votes in this congress, which is a border bill, and i'm very looking forward to being there to vote on it. i'm not going to address the speaker. i'll address leadership.

i appreciate everybody's patience with my presence in congress as, you know, the media has its ways of doing things, and i respect you guys, i've maintained good rapport with a lot of you guys. i've spoken with a lot of you guys, and i have intentions of continuing that open door. some of you from the hill know how to find me. some of you from the district don't have a hard time finding me. i appreciate leadership for being patient at this time and allowing the process to play out. i think this is about innocent until proven guilty. this starts, i have my right to fight to prove my innocence as the government has a right to try to find me guilty on whatever charges they want. >> what about that $25,000? >> you're being accused. >> the media is not jury or judge. so i will present that to the jurors and to the judge in this courthouse. >> and to the congress. >> it the congress requests it, i will present to them as well.

>> will you negotiate a plea? >> i'm addressing one of your colleagues. i don't want to give the back of -- as usual, jodi, i do my best to be a positive person. life is already as bad as it gets out there. >> your lips are moving. >> i'm fine, i'm good. i believe i'm innocent, yes, i do. i'll be a chairman of a committee in a couple of years, if you look at the standards of congress. look at the senate. >> george, covid money, it's alleged -- >> it's alleged. are you accusing me or are you going to allow the process to play out and allow me to clear my name? >> did you ever accept any unemployment money? >> the charges against you, and can you talk about the process? >> no, it was very amicable, very peaceful. these guys did a phenomenal job.

we clearly came right under your noses and you didn't see us come in today. we're leaving. obviously. i had all the intentions in the world to be out here with you guys. i'm going to keep fighting for what i believe in. i'm going to keep fight to go represent any district, and now i have to fight to defend my innocence, and i'm going to do that. >> did you ever accept any unemployment money? >> governor hochul said you should resign and put your district out of its misery, will you do that? >> governor hochul is entitled to her opinion, i do not represent her. >> i saw your face in court today. you looked pretty stressed. when i saw you sit down and the judge first started speaking, what was going through your mind, what are you feeling after being in court today? >> when it's your first time experiencing something of this nature, i think everybody would show some kind of stress.

i don't think i was stressed. i did any best to keep my composure, i was fine. this has been an experience for a book or something like that. i appreciate you guys. i appreciate you guys. here's what we'll do. guys, guys, i will -- you see, that is information you'll never get because that is the media's -- your intention is to go harass them and make their life miserable. you're not getting that. >> george, where's your husband? >> not often you're left speechless in this job. after all, it is my job to speak, but that kind of leaves you speechless. he says he'll be a chairman of a committee in a cup of years if you look at the standards of congress. he says this experience could be an experience for a book that he might write. okay. he also says he'll comply and that he will defend himself,

that these allegations are false, and he has the evidence to prove they're false, and for everyone to watch and see, as this goes forward. joining me outside of that courthouse, correspondent rehema ellis. also nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake, and ken dilanian, our nbc news justice correspondent. tell us more. >> reporter: yeah, katy, a lot going on here this afternoon. it was quite the scrum in terms o. number of cameras and reporters who were trying to get a word in edge wise with the freshman congressman, george santos, and finally he was able to make his way to the cameras with the microphones and many questions were asked, and one of the things, just towards the end there, he was asked about this $500,000 cash bond, which was

put up by three unidentified people. his attorney joe murray said that in the courtroom, he was not going to identify those people because he was afraid about retaliation. just a few moments ago when he was asked to identify those people, george santos says essentially the questions you're asking me, i don't want you to ask them, that they're entitled to their privacy, and so he would not reveal that information. he waived his right to the reading of the indictment during this eleven minutes that he was before the judge in a packed courtroom, and firmly, when he was asked how did he plead, he said firmly, not guilty. he also was told that he was going to have to surrender his passport, and that he would only be able to travel within the limits of new york, long island, and washington, d.c. his attorney said in the courtroom that his client is running for reelection. he would be attending campaign

events in the area, and would like permission to do that. the judge has said that is all right, and the attorney said he will promise to give notice in advance, but the judge also said do not take anything for granted. seek permission for doing something and not assume that anything is just okay. a lot going on as he over and over again defended himself against these 13 indictments that have been brought against him. he said that he is innocent until proven guilt. he appreciated what was coming from the leadership in the house of representatives who are standing by him. he says he wants to have his day in court, and that he said over and over again, he is guilty. he says i'm going to fight my battle. i am going to fight the witches, as he went on to say that this is a witch hunt. lastly, i would say to you, he pointed out that he is going to be going back to congress.

he is not resigning in any way, shape or form. he is going to go back to congress, and he's going to continue to do his work. when asked whether or not people would vote for him, whether or not he could win reelection, he said elections are tricky, i'm going to do my best. >> he is not guilty, he kept on saying. all right, garrett. >> reporter: not guilty. >> this is your wheel house, kevin mccarthy told reporters that he has his day in court, and he used the example of other lawmakers who have been indicted have kept their seats and have won and stayed in congress. they talked about senator menendez, what kevin mccarthy said, and also other lawmakers who were indicted and convicted and lost their seats, so he's saying let this play out. there's also the fact, though, garrett that kevin mccarthy has a very narrow margin in the house, and he needs george santos's vote. >> reporter: those things are exactly right. i'm going to skip the mccarthy sound bite because we have a lot to chew on. kevin mccarthy made it clear

that he wants to do this by the book, and in congress we do, in fact, basically have a book for how you handle an indictment, and it is largely as the speaker laid out. george santos is already not on any committees. there's no committees to strip him of for the moment, and we're going to wait and see how this process plays out. mccarthy is not going to move to expel him. he's not going to put any additional pressure on him to resign, at least not publicly. although there's plenty of that coming from other republicans including the other members of santos' new york delegation, especially the freshman who have called on him to resign. and the reasons are two-fold, number one, there is the presumption of innocent there, santos says he wants to fight to clear his name. i should say in the four months that he has been in congress, at no time that i can recall has santos successfully cleared his name from various allegations against him. not about his employment, where he went to school, not about his jewish heritage, whether he lied about whether his mom survived the 9/11 attack in the south tower. every time he has allegations against him, the allegations

have stood up. not to say the same thing will happen in a court of law. things aren't going george santos' way on this point. to his political future, one of the things he's got going to speak to go what's not happening in the house right now. house republicans were hoping to vote on a border bill, a bill they're not going to get democratic support on. a bill they would need almost every house republican to vote for, they're stalled. they can't do it, in part because george santos, and mike lawler, another new york republican aren't here today. kevin mccarthy cannot afford to be short george santos's vote for any protracted period of time or potentially forever if he were to resign and be replaced by someone else, perhaps a democrat in a special election. so santos' vote is very important to this republican congress even if he is an enormous headache to every other elected republican right now. >> so if he were to resign or if he was forced out, garrett, can you lay out the process to fill his seat, and whether republicans feel they have a decent chance of keeping that

seat? >> so if santos were to be forced to resign anytime between knew and i think it's july of next year, the governor would have ten days to set a date for a special election, and then you would have a special election, an open special election to fill that seat. now santos' victory in the first place was surprising because he won in a new district because of the redistricting that happened in the 2020 cycle, one in which joe biden carried by i think three or four points, so it's a district that a democrat would presumably be favored to win in, certainly against santos, but in an open seat, a democrat would be favored. this was a race that kind of went under the radar in '22. that would not be the case if it were a special election right now in new york city, with the volume, the edge in congress so tightly contested. katy, it would be one of the most expensive, most watched special elections in the history of congress. >> all right. ken, let's talk about the charges in the investigation

itself. santos said it was a four-month investigation, seeming to imply that maybe this was done shoddily, i guess. talk to me about the doj's process and what they have come up with so far. >> well, look, you know, the fbi is not infallible, the justice department sometimes brings cases that don't stand up, but this case seems incredibly strong, katy. it's what prosecutors call a paper case, meaning you can prove these charges based largely on documents, bank records, tax records, corporate records, text message, with the unemployment fraud, if you had a job and applied for unemployment benefits in new york city, and said you didn't have a job and took $25,000, that either happened or it didn't, and it's going to be in documents: similarly with the allegations that he was using campaign funds to pay for personal expenses, they've got the records that they say support that, now maybe there's some explanations in certain cases, the law is not always clear on that, but look, and then the most, the strangest

thing that you have pointed out earlier, i have never seen this happen where someone is charged with lying on a financial disclosure form, overstating their income. they're saying he made $750,000 and he didn't actually. we know he loaned his campaign a large sum of money, $700,000, and the implication seems to be that money came from somewhere else. the suggestion is this may not be the end of the criminal charges for george santos, that the federal government, the justice department knows other things they have not yet said in court. >> not to mention all of those campaign finance forms that he filled out where he listed a great number of expenses that were just under the limit for when you would need to, i guess add receipts or give a line item of what was in them, am i remembering that right? >> $199, right under the limit of disclosure, and, you know,

look, i mean, again, that's all documented and it's really hard to hide anything these days. people don't general pay with cash for things, and so every transaction that he used the money from the campaign for will be documented in credit card records and other kinds of records. so this is, again, it seems on its face, a very strong case. >> thank you very much. don't go anywhere. joining me is journalist and author of the fabulous, lying hustling, grifting, stealing and very american legend of george santos, mark chizzano that book comes out later this year. you have been looking into george santos, and his resume and the stories he has told about himself for some time now, how does today fall into your understanding of george santos, the long island lawmaker. >> yeah, i've been tracking down george santos across two continents now, starting on long island, and went to brazil recently to talk to people who

knew him there. i think what's key from this indictment is that it's the tip of the iceberg, the unemployment benefits situation is relatively new and hadn't been talked about too much. you know, and that seems like a cut and dried case, like we have been talking about. however, you know, it just shows that there's so much more. i havepon to people who say he's stolen from family members, starting at a very young age, that he stole from his roommates, that he, you know, had all sorts of other scams, a whole litany of scams having to do with cell phones and selling cell phones and collecting insurance on them. i really think this is the beginning, and we're starting to peel the layers of the onion back. >> do you have any insight into that money that he loaned his campaign? the feds say he didn't have that money, he didn't have a $750,000 salary from the organization. he didn't have between a million and 3 million he said of, i'm

sorry, 1,000,005 million in dividends. do we have any idea where that money could have come from? >> look, that's the big question. that's what i think people are really really curious to find out. there had been a lot of talk, you know, in the sort of months leading up to this about where that money could have come from and whether he even, in fact, did loan himself his campaign any money at all. i think that that's the kind of thing that the feds are really good at finding out, and i'm sure we're going to be hearing a lot more about it soon. one thing that i found in my reporting for the fabulous was that he kind of has been leveling up his scams. they began with very sort of petty things, you know, a few thousands dollars here and there. and this, i think, is kind of the biggest thing he has attempted if we are to believe what the justice department is indicating happened actually happened. >> in your reporting, have you nailed down exactly who george santos is? is there something you can say

definitively without a doubt is true about him? >> one family member said there's a little pebble of truth in every mountain of lie, which i think is a great way to think about it. he is a really good master of reinvention. i spoke to some people he worked with at customer service site in queens who said that he showed them pictures of a vacation that he took in dubai and it turned out they were stock photos. that's the kind of thing he does over and over again, though it is very hard to tell exactly who he is and what he's thinking at any time. >> mark shiusano, the book is the fabulous, it comes out later this year. a twice impeached sexual abuser and defamer, what republicans on the hill are now saying about their 2024 chances. plus, lies inside the unproductive white house meeting on the debt limit, and what

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(vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. joe is extremely likable. and so, of course, he is congratulating robbie, sean, mikes the whole team. my turn came out, he put out his hand and i looked him in the eye, and i said he did it, and you know it. and then we shook hands, and i went on by. >> e. jean carroll described what she said to joe tacopina in the moments after she was vindicated by a new york jury. six men and three women found donald trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation, and he should pay carroll $5 million in damages for it. asked about the verdict, donald trump's former vp, a devout

christian and likely 2024 rival, mike pence refused to pass any judgment. >> does that result change your view about whether or not he is fit to serve as president? >> well, i think that's a question for the american people, but i really can't comment on a judgment in a civil case. i have no knowledge of those matters, and i'm sure the president will defend himself in that matter. i would tell you in my four and a half years serving alongside the president, i never heard or witnessed behavior of that nature. >> back with me is nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake. you got a lot of work to do there today on the hill. the reaction to donald trump and this now verdict, this finding from a new york jury that he is liable for sexual abuse, which he's been accused of so many times over the years, and

defamation, what's the reaction on capitol hill? >> reporter: katy, it's been fairly muted. i can tell you running around up here yesterday reminded me of being here in 2017, trying to get republican lawmakers to respond to whatever the latest kind of trump scandal of the moment was and having most of them keep their distance from the then president, still the far and away polling leader to be the republican presidential nominee this year. i can tell you that senators were more like than house members to put distance between themselves and the former president. what you're about to hear from john cornyn was about the strongest rebuke of donald trump we heard from any republican yesterday or today. take a listen to some of what our team has been gathering. >> i don't have any observations about it. the american people are going to have to decide, particularly republicans and democrats, who

they want to run for president. >> regardless of what you think about him as an individual, to me, electability is the sole criterion. >> you don't think that trump could be elected president again? >> i don't think so. >> should he drop out of the race? >> i don't think he cares what i think. >> senator cornyn. >> i don't mean to be that cheek in tongue. >> senator cornyn said this is another example of why he can't win in a general election, do you agree with that? >> yes. >> reporter: you'll remember bill cassidy voted to convict donald trump after his second impeachment. cornyn's statement of what he views as an obvious analysis here that this is the kind of thing that would be really damaging to donald trump in a general election was new coming from him, and again, basically the farthest we heard any republican go. i can tell you i spent time on the house side last night, katy, where one republican lawmaker, byron donalds laughed in my face when i asked him this finding of liability for donald trump would

make him reconsider his endorsement of donald trump, he said, you know, are you kidding me? it's just some jury in new york, basically. >> garrett haake, thank you very much. and don't go anywhere because we're going to continue this conversation. after the break, he tried and failed to stop donald trump in 2016. we're going to ask former ohio governor john kasich what the party can actually do to convince its voters that donald trump, as john cornyn said, is not electable. and 21 days before a full blown crisis, why capitol hill is increasingly worried a debt default is inevitable. a debt default is inevitable we really had our hands full with our two-year-old. so naturally, we doubled down with a new puppy. thankfully, we also have tide ultra-oxi with odor eliminators. between stains and odors, it can handle double trouble. for the #1 stain fighter and odor remover, it's got to be tide. (bobby) my store and my design business? we're exploding. for the #1 stain fighter and odor remover, but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business.

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again a jury of three women and six men found him liable. they said, yes, donald trump did likely sexually abuse e. jean carroll, and yes, he did lie about it. but donald trump is sticking to his story, and claiming that he is, in fact, the victim. >> i don't even know who this woman is. i have no idea who she is, where she came from, this is another scam. it's a political witch hunt. and somehow we're going to have to fight this stuff. we cannot let our country go into this abyss. this is disgraceful. >> joining me from manchester, new hampshire, is nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard. you're in new hampshire for a number of reasons. donald trump is holding a town hall later, another one is that

it's new hampshire and it's the first state to vote for -- not to caucus but to vote for the republicans, and donald trump needs to win those voters over, and secondly, it's also an important state for a general election. so tell me, what are you hearing from voters in new hampshire about donald trump especially today, a day after a new york jury found him liable for sexual abuse. >> katy, you and i talked yesterday, we were talking about how over eight years we have asked republican voters, you know, what is going to be the step too far for you here, and when we're talking about the e. jean carroll case, i think that is going to be another question going forward. the extent to which, for the first time, donald trump has been found liable by a jury for sexual abuse, but i want to let you hear from a particular generation, and that is younger voters that we came out here this week, and spent the last couple of days talking to, because so far we're seeing early data here is that it's actually those 18 to

24-year-olds. those individuals who have grown up with donald trump as sort of the party elder, that he is receiving most ardent support among, compared to older republican voters. i want to let you hear from a couple of them, and we'll talk on the backside of them. take a listen. >> every single person in the united states has done something in their life that they know they shouldn't have done. and that shouldn't define a person, one thing that they say, shouldn't define their character. >> reporter: which politician would you say in your life have you most identified with? >> i would say trump. i would say trump, just because i like the way he speaks his mind and tells the people what he thinks and from a young age, just watching him in 2016. >> a lot of people who are my age are almost afraid to tell others that they are republican because they automatically get stereotyped in with the donald trump era, and i would love to have a new candidate kind of represent our party, and want to

bring our generation back into it. >> reporter: now, katherine, who you just heard from is a sophomore in college. she hopes her own governor here, chris sununu runs, but she would support nikki haley if he chooses not to enter this race. she told me if donald trump is the nominee, she would support him in the november 2024 election. as more michael, a sophomore in college, he was telling me, i was texting him today, these interviews took place before the e. jean carroll verdict, just to double check with you, your opinion hasn't changed for donald trump since that verdict, and he wrote back to me, not at all, trump is still my man here. and i know that particularly your next guest, governor kasich may have better insight into the younger generation, because i know his two daughters are a part of had age group. mike and will catherine, were 11 years old when donald trump came on to the political scene.

their parents admired him. they had rallied that streamed into their homes, and for this young generation, they view him as somebody that they grew up with and that they are seeking and open to serving in the white house yet again. >> it's hard to imagine that time has gone that quickly, that you can grow up as a generation under donald trump. vaughn hillyard, thank you so much, and joining me now is nbc news political analyst, and former republican governor of ohio, john say -- kasich. let's start with your daughters in the trump era and give us your insight. >> i love new hampshire, and my daughters wouldn't vote for donald trump, for a dogcatcher, period, end of story. the one woman said, one young woman said i wish we could move on. why doesn't the party move on, katy, is really kind of the crucial question. i think there's really two reasons. >> go ahead, go ahead. >> you tell me. you're going where i'm going too, so tell me. >> well, the first reason is

that trump has locked up a lot of the party apparatus, you know, if you go state by state, here in the state of ohio, you know, he's got these trump people that are running the organization. that's number one. but the party organization itself doesn't have the power it used to have because the party structure doesn't have the fundraising capability. that's been put out to the super pacs, so, you know, when it comes to the donors, they have nowhere to just put all of their money based on what the party is trying to tell them. secondly, a lot of donors, and i know this personally, they want to be with a winner, they don't want to make a winner. if you have a lot of money, the great thing you would do if you don't like donald trump, give your money a big chunk of it, and organize your friends and pals where you live and across the country. but they literally don't want to do that right now, and that's how you would find a candidate who could actually beat trump because most republican voters will tell you, just like most

democrat voters will tell you, they don't want biden. republicans don't want trump. they don't speak out about it and don't organize. >> donald trump is now a twice impeached former president, an election loser, he lost in 2020, you can argue he's dragged the ticket down in 2018, 2020, and 2022. he has been found to be a sexual abuser, liable for sexual abuse here in new york. a defamer, he's under criminal indictment here in new york state. he could be facing another criminal indictment in georgia. or maybe two more criminal indictments from the federal government in the special counsel cases against him. that is a whole lot of baggage. and when you tell me that donors don't want to create a winner because they don't -- you tell me why they don't want to do that? are they just worried about losing their money? do donors believe that if they put their money behind donald trump that he's a winner. do they think he can win with

all of that a general election? >> some of them like his policies, so, you know, these other things, forget about it, but fundamentally, katy, years ago, the party itself had the power to screen, to develop, to raise the money, but the power for political parties has been taken away. the laws that have been passed in congress have empowered super pacs, and you know, these super pacs, katy, these are people who give money. nobody knows who they are, because they don't disclose the names. what has to happen is you can get some very significantly wealthy members who are donors, and they then have to organize, but they don't organize because it takes a lot of work, and it's not just about the money, it's about them getting their friends and families and sticking their necks out, and a lot of them complain. they complain all the time. why can't we have somebody better. same thing on the democrats' side. nothing ever seems to change. i think as this becomes

accumulated myself, first of all, trump is going to be hurt again by this with women voters. most particularly in the general election, how this is going to affect women in the republican primary, we've probably got to wait another two or three days, as far as i'm concerned, i fought them before anybody else did. and i just, in politics, and i said this guy was not capable and should not be elected and i haven't changed anything, you know, and this is kind of where we are. i'm frustrated like so many republicans are frustrated. but frustration is not enough. it has to create action. >> if you like his policies, and this is a conversation we'll have to put on pause for the day, but there are a lot of other republicans, almost all of them who basically have the same policies as donald trump. so if you're looking for a policy aligned candidate, i don't see why you don't move your money elsewhere. especially with the questions surrounding donald trump's general election, electability. >> they're kind of sitting it out. a lot of these donors are

sitting it out. >> got it. >> in terms of the policies, that's for another day. i can tell you, these policies, whether it's on the border, where this build a wall and nothing else or whether it has to do with spending money with e don't have, and this debt crisis can be laid at the feet of donald trump, who never saw a spending program he frankly never liked or whether it's trade wars or a foreign policy that was all really fouled up, these are the things that when people say they love his policies, i'm like, okay, let's sit down and have a debate about that. let's talk about that. because i don't think the policies are that great. what we need is a candidate with a positive vision, a positive vision with a lot of energy. same thing on the democrats' side. on the republican side, what are you going to do about prescription drugs, the budget, the debt, what are you going to do about the border. what are you going to do about crime. all of this should be debated.

we're not hearing it. we've got two guys, biden, trump, nobody likes either but this is kind of what we're sat -- saddled with in the moment. in an nba game, it gets settled in the last three minutes. we have a long way to go. >> thank you, i want to tell you to ease your mind, teddy had his molars coming in, that's why he had a fever. john kasich, thank you very much. >> thank you. coming up, when president biden says he's going to do about the debt limit, plus, we've heard that meeting at the oval office was heated. what lawmakers are now saying about a default, again, after that unproductive meeting yesterday at the white house. r that unproductive meeting yeerstday at the white house (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data and unlimited hotspot data.

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yesterday's meeting at the white house didn't go so well. speaker kevin mccarthy accused the president of lying and the president accused speaker mccarthy of playing a dangerous game of politics that will damage the economy. today the president went to the home of freshman republican mike lawler in new york to make the same argument but this time directly to the american public. >> the debt we're talking about is accumulated over 200 years. the last administration alone, last guy who served in this office for four years, increased the total national debt by 40% in just four years.

over the last decade, single largest contribution of the debt aside from the pandemic with the trump tax cuts skewed to the wealthy. >> and joining me now is our political contributor jake sherman. read the tea leaves. are we defaulting? >> in the department of good news, the white house and capitol hill negotiators just met for two hours in a meeting that several people involved said was positive, surprisingly positive, but again, that is a long way away from having a deal by next week which is what speaker mccarthy said needs to happen if they want to avoid the june 1 deadline. there is some question as to whether june 1 is a hard deadline. treasury will probably we assume update that in the coming days. but listen, getting a bill through the senate takes a week. getting a bill through the house takes roughly a week, maybe a

couple days. so there is not a lot of wiggle room here and we still haven't solved the ultimate question which is whether democrats are willing to raise the debt ceiling with a spending deal or whether republicans are willing to raise the debt ceiling with a spending deal at some other point or alongside. so those are key questions procedurally that we'll have to know the answer to to know if we'll get over this hump. >> you've been the modern day cass is an take for us because you say have been talking about this since november, december, even earlier. you were talking about the republicans getting control of the house. and watch out because the debt fight was going to get ugly talking about all the factions in the republican party and what they would be demanding. and l and behold it is may and we're having this conversation and we're running out of time. so as we get closer to this deadline, you have been reporting that maybe it would be a short term deal, maybe they would both come to an agreement, kick it down to the fall, to line up the debt ceiling

negotiations with the budget negotiations. kevin mccarthy has said no to that. i mean, you are talking about aides having conversations. but if the leaders, if mccarthy and the president aren't getting anywhere, will there come a point where mitch mcconnell starts trying to be deal maker here, peace maker here as he has sometimes played had role in the past. >> he firmly ruled that out. he has zero interest in doing that. he sees this and he said this in 2019, when speaker nancy pelosi was the speaker of the house and donald trump was president, he said divided government, let the speaker and the president then donald trump cut a deal. and now he's saying the same thing. let biden and mccarthy cut a deal. probably healthy to not have mel cut the deal because house republicans probably wouldn't like whatever mcconnell came up with. but this is no surprise. mccarthy said this in october in an interview that we did, he

said listen, if we win the house, we'll have a fight over the debt ceiling. democrats had the opportunity to do it in december, they decided against that. and here we are february 1 meeting between biden and mccarthy, 97 days, and now here we are. both sides have reasonable arguments. not one side is more reasonable and the other. but aides have to come to an agreement, principles have to cement the agreement. and then you have to sell it to the membership and the rank and file and then you have to pass it. so this is why you get a lot of time do these things and you leave a lot of time do them. >> does mccarthy survive this? >> that is a good question. >> do you foresee enough -- what is it, two republicans have to say or two members of the house -- just one now has to say i don't have confidence in him? >> they could force a vote. one republican could force a

vote and then he would need to get 218 to stay in the speaker ship. the answer is i don't know. it depends what the deal looks like, it depends how angry the right is. a lot of people want this to be done but just don't want their hands on it, don't want to be in control of it. so that is the situation we find ourselves in. >> let me ask you about senator dianne feinstein. she showed back up today. we have video of it, her coming back. what is the read on her? >> she is here. she said that she will have a lighter schedule in the coming week and months ahead. but a much needed vote a whole host of votes coming. and it obviously took a lot for her to get back. she was quite ill, she had been gone for months, so a big moment for schumer. >> let me ask you about comer and the investigations into the biden family. we're hearing a lot of noise from him about the allegations and the findings that he says he

has uncovered about the financial ties between the biden family and foreigners. and i have yet to see any hard evidence of that. are you expecting that, are you expecting receipts to be shown, bank statements to be shown? what is going on there? >> they have to at some point, right? they have made a series of relatively serious charges against the biden family. and at some point they will have to put it to paper. they recently launched a joint investigation with chuck grassley based on a whistleblower report saying he was paid by a foreign national. they have not shown that. they will try to get that record from the fbi, that interview roord from the fbi. but at some point they will have to show a lot of this evidence. >> have they tied it directly to president biden? >> no, just a lot of allegations. nothing hard and fast. >> all right. jake sherman with a very busy day at the capitol. a ton to ask you and it didn't even include george santos or the reaction to donald trump

being found liable for sexual abuse and defamation. we got a lot in there. thank you so much. hopefully we don't default. that does it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts a tad early today. don't go anywhere. hi there, it is 4:00 in new york. he is peak gop in the year 2023, he came to represent everything that is broken, false and politically craven about kevin mccarthy's house gop conference. and his name is george santos. and today his house of cards came tumbling down. george santos today appeared in federal court after being charged for a litany of crimes, 13 charges in total. they include wire fraud, money laundering and making false statements to the house of representatives. in a statement the justice department says this, quote, taken together, the allegations in the indictment charged santos with relying on repeated