being found liable for sexual abuse and defamation. we got a lot in there. thank you so much. hopefully we don't default. that does it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts a tad early today. don't go anywhere. hi there, it is 4:00 in new york. he is peak gop in the year 2023, he came to represent everything that is broken, false and politically craven about kevin mccarthy's house gop conference. and his name is george santos. and today his house of cards came tumbling down. george santos today appeared in federal court after being charged for a litany of crimes, 13 charges in total. they include wire fraud, money laundering and making false statements to the house of representatives. in a statement the justice department says this, quote, taken together, the allegations in the indictment charged santos with relying on repeated

dishonesty. and key exception. to ascend to the halls of congress. in essence doj alleges officially now what many have been alleging for months now george santos is a complete fraud. prosecutors claim that santos cheated his own supporters from that indictment, quote, in and about and between september and october 2022, the defendant george anthony santos devised and executed a scheme to defraud supporters of his candidacy for the house and that the false pretenses that the money would be used to for his candidacy. and doj also accuses santos of applying for and receiving unemployment benefits and ten

different people who had lost their jobs during the pandemic, all while keeping a job. prosecutors also say santos lied on the financial disclosure forms required of every house candidate. despite these damning allegations that relate directly to how santos ended up in congress in the first place, house gop leadership is as of this house refusing to call for his resignation. kevin mccarthy telling reporters that he wants the legal process to play out and would only ask him to resign if convicted. santos pleaded not guilty to all the charges. he has been released on a $500,000 bond. at a press conference santos took a page from the disgraced ex-president's playbook calling it a witch hunt and insisting that he will clear his name. the republican congressman defined by deceit is where we begin with our favorite reporters and friends.

we have grace ashford here, she along with her colleague michael gold through their reporting helped put the name george santos on the map many months ago. also joining us michael steel and andrew weissmann. i will do this as sort of mood music. i want to play a little bit of george santos' own reaction to the charges filed against him. >> there is a clock -- >> we'll look for that. we didn't have it ready obviously. do we have it? let's try again. >> you look pretty stressed. when i saw you sit down and the george started speaking, what was going through your mind, what are you feeling after being in court? >> when it is first time experiencing something of that nature, i think that everybody would show some kind of stress.

i quite frankly don't believe i was stressed. i did the best i could to keep my composure. i was fine. but again, this has been an experience, you know, for a book or something like that. >> he is always grifting it would appear. grace, you and your colleagues, i know you throw a lot of the credit to some of the local reporting that even predates the extraordinary body of reporting from by the "new york times." but just take us back in time a little bit to how we got here. >> yeah, thank you so much for having me. this indictment comes i think a lot quicker than many people thought. we got started on our story just a couple days after george santos was elected with the simple question who is this new congressman. and we found, you know, with a little bit of preliminary digging that lot of stories that he told about himself didn't really hold up. he didn't seem to have the sterling education or that he worked for the wall street firms. the more we started digging, the more questions we found.

we found all these questions about his fundraising. and the way that he was spending money in his campaign. you know, we continue to report as did many other outlets and frankly there are so many kind of questions that rose that last night as we were preparing to find out what the actual indictment will contain, you know, we didn't really know. it is really interesting now to take a look and see exactly what federal prosecutors have honed in on these three instances of fraud. >> and i think anyone that covered trump learned that lying to the press isn't a crime. and so there was this spilling over to the lies that he told, everything from where he went to school to where his mother was on 9/11 to where he worked. but there is intersectionality between the lies he told and the crime he committed. you can help us understand where investigators looking for federal crimes turned their focus? >> that is a good point.

lying itself is not a crime, but takes crime if you lie on a federal document for example. and this is one of the things that he is charged with. lying about his income on statements that he filed, so is that one of the very simple counts. you know, other sort of documentary crimes also include the employment fraud. this was new i believe, this had not been reported, but prosecutors allege that representative santos collected unemployment while he was actually employed. he addressed this briefly at the press conference today. he said it was not totally clear and again stressed that he is innocent. >> i want to go through some of it. we have the charges on the screen. andrew, seven counts of wire fraud, three counts of money laundering. one count of theft of public funds. two counts that relate to what grace is describing, false statements to the house of representatives. these were some of his financial disclosures. and i want to read what is

described repeatedly as a scheme temperature on or about october 21, 2022, santos sent to contributor 2 one or more text messages in much he reiterated the need for contributions to company one which he falsely stated would be spent on ads. that same day in reliance upon the email and accompanying text messages, contributor two caused a sum of $25,000 to be wired to company one. from there the funds received from contributor one and contributor two were spent by santos for his personal benefit including to make cash withdrawals, personal purchases at luxury clothing, credit card payments, a car payment, payments on personal debts, and one or more bank transfers to santos' personal associates. anyone that watches "law & order" knows that those are crimes that a lot of people don't get away with. what is your assessment of sort of the scale of criminality revealed in the indictment?

>> well, you really have these three different types of schemes. and one of the things that the government i think did well is rely on hard evidence. what i mean by that is not just what witnesses appear to say but emails and texts which they quote from that include emails and texts from george santos. and so what you are reading from, nicolle, was one of the schemes that involves lying to two campaign contributors. there may be more. but at least two are identified not by name but as two contributors who were told very much like the steve bannon/wall prosecution, they were told please contribute money to my campaign and the money will go to only campaign uses. and in fact as you just noted, the indictment says that it

didn't go to that, it went to all sorts of personal items like luxury goods and clothing and things of that ilk. so it is very much tracking the kind of charges which were successful against steve bannon and his conspirators involving soliciting money for the wall saying that all of this money will go to building the wall when in fact it was going to lining their own pockets. so that is one aspect of -- you know, a huge part of this scheme. but it is only one of three schemes there are charged in this indictment. >> take us through the others, andrew. >> sure. so the others has to do with false filings with the house. as you said, into the crime unfortunately to lie to the public, it is viewed that that is a political issue that people can see through that and can decide how to vote or not. but these were filings that were made to the house about his finances and what he had in his

accounts or didn't have. and so that forms a sented second bucket. and the third is maybe the most outrageous. it was not just seeking unemployment to the tunes of tens of thousands but also covid relief which is for people like about this to get according to the charges in order to get this additional funding. so again, a third way in which false statements can actually be charged. and i should point out to your point about kevin mccarthy, all of this does not have to wait for the end of the criminal case. they have an ethics committee, they have the ability to ask a sitting member of the house questions about all of these allegations and to get at the truth. so they don't have to wait for the judge to schedule a trial

and see if there is a conviction. they can actually get those answers from george santos now. there is a reason that they are not doing it, which is political. it is not because of everything that prevents them from having those conversations. and let's be clear george santos is now voting on thing for the american public even though he is facing 13 extremely serious felony charges. he cannot live the length of time if you were to add up all of the crimes if he is convicted of them. it is a serious set of charges here. >> michael steel, george santos, and i remember reading grace and her colleagues' early stories didn't seem real. it seemed like he was made in a laboratory to answer this question, how bad is the gop. they are so bad that they will hang on to a guy who lies

about -- we tried to spit ball and come up with a list. lies that he is jewish, he had two knee replacements from playing volleyball, that he attended -- where he went to college, the mba he doesn't have, where he worked, that he had employees who died in the pulse night club shooting, that his mother was in the south tower on 9/11, this was the one that offended me the most, i think i led with it one day, that he raised funds for surgery with for a dog but he never provided the dog's owner with and the dog ended up dying. i meaning, he seemed too awful to be real but he answered the question of does kevin mccarthy have a red line. no. >> he doesn't have a red line because george santos has something that he values more than the integrity of this process and what it means for

the party and how it plays out. and that is a vote. when you only have a four seat majority, losing a vote, having a special election in a district that could likely yield a democrat coming to congress, yeah, you are going to pretend that the stain isn't there, you will dance and waffle around it. you will try your best to ignore it because you need that vote. so don't expect kevin mccarthy to do anything different than he has done up until now. because with questions coming before the house related to the debt and other big things that republicans want to try to get in front of the american people, they are going to need that vote. so that is the politics of this. the underlying back story is the story of a guy who is once and always looking to be the center of attention. that scrum that we saw coming into this conversation with the

press is a moment very much like donald trump he loves. so reporter was like i saw the worried look on your face. oh, you noticed that i was worried? oh, no, i really wasn't worried. it is all drama. and he says this is something that i could write a book about. folk, you are watching the grift live on television and our press are suckers for it every time. they create the trauma and the atmosphere. if there was just one pool reporter there waiting to get a statement from santos, reality would have been very different. responses would have been very different. >> let me respectfully push back. it is the journalism of grace and her colleagues that brought the story to bear. but i take your point about the

circus today. and i'd go even further by saying to andrew weissmann's point, he has a vote. here is what he has done with it. he has voted with marjorie taylor greene, co-sponsoring a bill that could ban lgbtq books in classrooms, politico reported that he leans on groups with white nationalist ties. cbs news reported that he backs a bill to make ar-15 rifles the national gun of the united states. he is also there enjoying relishing creating i would say i agree with you, michael, the circus. and doing great harm. what do we -- we have a lot of conversations about the rule law enforcement. and it moved quite quickly in this instance. but he is still there and a member in good standing. >> well, he is a member in standing. i don't think how good it is. the reality of it is to the extent that it is good, it is because the leadership allows him to participate the way he does. he can still vote when a vote is

called and again it goes back to the point i was making. he doesn't have committee assignments. he is not having that level of impact on the workings of the congress or on bills that come before committees. but it does speak more broadly to how we get caught up in the circus and that is my only point. when someone like george santos is like everybody calm down, let me get to the podium, right, he is like i want to give you the information, just let me do it, it just speaks to how these things quickly escalate into a circus atmosphere and that plays to the underlying narrative. at the end of the day this will be a book that he wants to write, that he wants to make money off of, that regardless of what the outcome here is, he is going to get paid. there is going to be an up side for him and all of the criminal justice elements that my buddy andrew is laying out and all the

great reporting that is done on this doesn't take away that fact. that is the end game here. that is always the end game. >> and that is because one of the country's two parties is broken. a healthy functioning party expels the cancer from the body politics. >> exactly. he should be gone by now. >> i want to show you, grace, what felt like a turning point in this story. it happened pretty early. and that was a divide in the republican caucus. these are the republican members from new york who wanted him out. let me show you that. >> there is a clock ticking and george santos should have resigned in december, january, yesterday, and maybe he will resign daifrd. but sooner or later honesty and justice will be delivered. >> he should resign. i've said that repeatedly. obviously these charges confirm what i've said from the

beginning. >> why do you think the speaker doesn't follow that same posture? >> i'll leave it to others to discuss their position on it. bottom line is his conduct has been embarrassing and it is graceful. and he should resign as a member of congress. >> and that wasn't the first time these members have spoken out against him. talk about the complicated new york politics and why some republicans from new york distance themselves from him. >> this is one of the more interesting developments. some of the loudest voices on the republican side are coming from representatives who are right near him in long island, local leaders, joe cairo who is chairman of the nassau county gop, very early gathered a press conference and made very clear their stance calling upon him to

resign. those calls have continued. they have been, you know, resolute in those and they have said that they will not work with him on any legislation even though some actually share many similar priorities. there are two different bills, george santos has one and his colleague has another on the salt deduction that burdens many high income states including new york and those congressmen have said that they will not work with him. and you have heard that echoed by other freshman gop members. and. >> so much more to say about that. and grace, we know you are covering the story, you pulled over and stopped to be a part of our coverage. we'll let you go, but not without tipping our hat to the dogged reporting i think it was over the holidays that we first started paying real close

attention to the stories that we're bringing about this brand new member named george santos. so congrats to you and your colleagues. >> thank you so much for having me from my car. when we come back, our next guest says george santos is not an outlier in the republican party. he is the natural outgrowth of the republican party that has allowed itself to be led by an extremist leader now liable for sexual abuse and defaming ex-president. congressman ritchey torez who has been sounding alarms about santos for months now joining us next. and plus for the first time in years that same leader who also fomented an insurrection will be given a platform before millions and millions of americans. audiences worldwide. we'll look at what kind of risk foring and advocating

more extremism that poses. and e. jean carroll's close friend will be our guest right here at the table.

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turning our conversation with congressman who filed an ethics complaint against george santos back if n. january. i remember the day the video broke of you and congressman goldman dropping it off in his office. your reaction to today's 13

charges from doj. >> more than the 13 charges is george santos' reaction. he has take solutions of grandeur that staggers the mind. claiming that he is in a witch hunt. never mind that he lied and laundered money. it is so honest that he has a shamelessness matched only by donald trump. and to me fraudulent figures like trump and santos are symptoms of a diseased republican party that has become a safe haven for clowns and crooks and crack pots. it is a real indictment for how far we've fallen as a country. >> i mean, i think that that is the more chilling part of the story, right? that the contagion of trump's animosity toward the rule of law in america has spread to new york, to george santos. and i wonder if you think that

elise stefanik and kevin mccarthy are to blame for that. >> well, house republican leadership has a clear choice. right? either expel george santos or become his enabler. only two morally acceptable outcomes. either george santos resigns or republicans expel him. and the refusal to expel george santos is clearly driven not by principle but power and politics. worst kept secret is that the republicans need santos' vote. and notice that mr. santos was the decisive vote on the bill to default on america. >> this is a toxic dysfunctional dependence between mccarthy and santos. and i wonder if you can speak more to the success that you and

your colleagues have had in raising this issue. i mean, it is much more than a lack of ethics, it is flagrant criminal conduct. and to see a couple of the crimes charged, there were so many, but a couple were scarily squarely in this category of lying and therefore damaging lying to and lying on his background forms in the house of representatives. it feels like that shouldn't be a partisan reaction to the sanctity and importance of truthfully filling out background forms and disclosures. >> my colleague and i played a role in shining a spotlight on the corruption, but the person who deserves the most credit is mr. santos himself. when you pretend to be a guy by racial ukrainian belgian brazilian jewish hollywood producer, you are bound to attract scrutiny. for me the life story of george santos is the greatest fiction

in the history of congressional politics. and he is at the core of congress as an institution. and a country of 330 million people, only 535 have the honor of serving in congress and one should not be george santos. it is an embarrassment to this country that he is a member of congress. and one of our responsibilities is oversight. we oversee programs like the unemployment insurance program which he personally defrauded. like he is playing a role in overseeing programs that he personally i defrauded. and the republican party has found common cause with george santos in assaulting the social safety net that he has been attempting to defraud his whole life. >> i mean, to your point about larger implications for the republican party, his role in sitting in a body that oversees that him practice, you could you today a parallel to marjorie taylor greene's role on the homeland security committee when she amplifies and creates content that is main lined into some of the places where domestic violence extremists go

to get their information or disinformation. what is your sense of what if anything can be done to sort of raise the alarms about the threat that republican members represent to the body itself? >> look, if we were to move to expel george santos, it would send a powerful message. and i worry the failure do so will enable mr. santos to leverage his congressional seat to potentially negotiate a much more favorable plea bargain which is a privilege unavailable to 99.9% of criminal defendants in america. so as far as i'm concerned, either you expel george santos or you are enabling him. democrats want to expel him and republicans enable him. a number of republicans have called on him to resign, but actions matter more than words. >> andrew weissmann, can you

speak to whether that is something that prosecutors have taken into consideration, that he be hanging on to hist into c. i don't think that they have taken that into consideration. i think that they will leave that to the political process and they will look at this as an individual and what do the facts show and what is the law. i think that whether -- he may in fact offer to resign and in lieu of, you know, some harsher penalty, maybe his lawyers suggesting lieu of any sort of conviction, but that won't fly. it is very rare that government would consider that. occasionally and very, very low level cases involving let's say a letter carrier who does

something wrong in terms of stealing mail, it may be part of the resolution that the person has to resign. but in a case involving somebody sitting in congress, i don't think that that is the case that this will be something where the justice department steps into have that be part of the remedy in this case. >> and andrew, also weigh in on the comments the congressman made about the rule of law, that this is now a playback on the right to instantly immune motives of prosecutors with whose politics into one has any idea of what they are, and to impune the process, and immediately engage in the grift. >> yeah, two points to that. one, you know, i think that to michael's point that i think that media as we've talked about in the past does tend to give play to adjectives anded a

verbs. but saying things like a witch hint, whether donald trump or now george santos, just saying something is a witch hunt is tee void of facts. to say why the government allegations are wrong in the same way donald trump says it is a witch hunt when nine jurors unanimously found that he abused someone and defamed someone, it is just a tag line. and i do think that what we're seeing is sort of the failure of institutions to clean house. george santos and clarence thomas are wildly different people and what they have done is completely different. and i'm not comparing them. but i do think that when we see that the supreme court is not capable of having a mechanism to police itself, and we're not seeing thehusband -- on us

having a mechanism to police itself. and it is unacceptable and seems such a failure of public sever haven'ts living by their oath of office. and what they owe all of us whether you are in the house or in the highest court of the land, it shouldn't be the department of justice that always is the default or somebody like e. jean carroll having the tenacity and guts do what she did that finally brings accountability, there should be a way to have internal controls that work on a bipartisan level. and i don't think that we're seeing that in either institution, whether the house or the supreme court. >> and michael steel, i want to pick up on this parallel. one of the crimes that i also didn't have his whole name committed to memory, so i'll

look, george devolder santos, charged with lying on disclosure. and he says that there is a failure to disclose even by the supreme court's own rather flimsy ethics code, a failure by clarence thomas to disclose a real estate transaction which is required, properties and home purchased for his mother as well as the paid tuition for someone he was raising as his own son, your reflections, and i know you have a lot, about the impact, this sort of rolling -- i think of it as sort of the rolling blackouts of democracy what happens when one of the two parties doesn't just fail to control itself, it fails to honor its own oath. so then you go into the institution where he is supposed to quote/unquote serve and you are part of its destruction, not just partof its sort of failure to follow the rules. this is not just norm busting,

this is actually destroying and eroding the bodies in which they serve. >> well, they told us up front that is what the plan was, right? we're not surprised by this. they told us what is the goal is this to deconstruct the administrative state. and we saw that process begin almost immediately upon assuming the authority of the white house. when trump went to the cia and stood before the wall of the fallen and politicized that moment, politicized their courage. and their service. that was the form of deconstruction of that institution. which we then saw play out in the department of justice. and, you know, the various other agencies of government. and then sort of filtered into the way that the public began to even look at institutions that they once relied on to protect them and serve them and be of value of them, that distrust

began to take hold. and so very much to an true was saying, you have in one instance an individual who lied in his disclosure and the other who just didn't disclose it. so there you have the twin pillars of the moment exampled by santos and thomas. >> unbelievable moment. congressman, thank you for your work and the work of your colleagues in bringing mr. santos to all of our attention. i know he's long from gone, but it is an important moment. and andrew weissmann, thank you for being a part of the show. i think this is the third day in a row. a new episode of andrew's podcast, prosecuting donald trump, is out right now. listen to it at 6:00.

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. what do you want to call them? give me a name. >> proud boys. >> proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> after he made this comment, enrico tarrio said standing by, sir. during our investigation, we learned that this comment during the presidential debate led to an increase in membership in the proud boys. >> would you say proud boys numbers increased after the stand back stand by comment? >> exponentially. i'd say tripled probably. >> with the potential for a lot more eventually. >> did you ever sell any stand back and stand by merchandise? >> a vendor on my page beat me to it, but i wish i would have made a stand back stand by shirt. >> call and answer. call and effect. trump speaks, there are consequences. and this will be our third straight go-round, third

straight presidential election where a twice impeached once indicted, liable for sexual abuse and defamation donald trump is a candidate. everyone knows that you, me, people on the left, people on the right, largely silent group in the middle, everyone knows exactly what is about to happen. so at this point, it is not projection, not frustration, not exasperation, just a fact pa that when donald trump has a platform to talk, the worst elements of our society are just watching. they are pumping it into disinformation and misinformation system, putting the for r information on steroi pushing it out to the people and agencies that protect us warn are primed and pumped to carry out acts of domestic violent extremism. which is why tonight's town hall

and cable network, it is not about just a candidate, but it begs the question, have we learned nothing? last time trump was questioned by a nonfox news nonright wing person or network was in october 2020 and he got mad and walked out on the interview. since then he has plotted, orchestrated, cheered and sought to join a coup that you might have heard about, he was impeached a second time and remember the first one was for trying to extort zelenskyy who is now at war with russia. he has then been indicted in manhattan for campaign related conduct for paying hush money to a porn star to stay quiet weeks before his election. and yesterday he was found liable by a jury of his peers which reportedly included people who were part of the maga world for sexually abusing a woman in the 1990s. they believed her. and now he is poised to return

to the mainstream media airwaves. tonight. let's bring in former republican congressman david jolly. mike steel still with us. david, what are your thoughts? >> i shear this could be a danger was moment for the reasons you mentioned regarding his and to mobilize some of the dark and dangerous behaviors in our culture. but i think that it is fair to ask the question who then bears responsibility. and i would play a bit of a contrarian to some of the current wisdom on this about whether or not the world needs to see him. i think the world does need to see donald trump for a couple reasons. first, he is currently leading the republican primary by as much as 40 points. and in this week's "washington post" poll he is up by seven over joe biden. not because he has had mainstream media platform but because enough people in the nation are actually saying this is the direction we want to go. and so that then creates the hard question for the media, is it their roll to shepherd the direction of the country or help

cover it. and cnn has made the decision to cover it. so the question is the responsibility to frame and to remind the american people about the absolute danger of this president. another reason i think that we need to hear from him is there is so much that he says or does that is danger was. we sometimes miss it. this is a person, a leader in the presidential contest, who has called for a test of patriotism of teachers and for parents to be able to get rid of teachers who are insufficiently patriotic. he has called for firing squads for the pardoning of all january 6 convicts. he is recently pivoted on a national abortion ban to say that he would entertain it. if there is any comfort, i realize i'm a contrarian, but i'd say trust the voters and viewers. because the more people get to see donald trump, the more they have hard questions and his support begins to erode. this is a hard moment. i fear the danger, the mobile

ization of dangerous elements when donald trump has a platform, but i'd rather see it now than hide from it and wake up to it when he becomes president in 2025. >> michael steele, i cover him here, so i don't have condemnation or wisdom, but i think fool us once, shame on you. fool us a second time, shame on us. and i want to put into the conversation michael finone writes cnn putting him on stage having him answer questions lee like a normal candidate normalizes what he did. it sends a message that attempting a coup is just part of the process that accepting a election results is a choice and there are no consequences in media or politics or anywhere else. he has a point too. >> he does.

and i agree with my buddy representative jolly up to that point. because i think at the end of the day the final analysis, that is the truth of what is happening here. this is the legitization for the purposes of ratings and for purposes of getting from trump's perspective a broader platform, legitimate platform, legitization of all of this particularly on the heels of the court ruling, the jury ruling against trump. and so, yeah, we want to contextualize it, we want to understand it and we want to decide ultimately as a nation what direction we want to go in. but i don't know how much more evidence you need to make that decision. to be honest, i don't know what else does he have to do to make you go, oh, no, we shouldn't do

that. because he has given us a boatload of stuff. even in the face of everything that has been going on, the impending indictments, indictment out of new york, the trial with e. jean carroll and the results there, you don't see people going, oh, ob, overt my eyes, i can't watch, this is not good. they are like tell me more. can we do a sitdown and have a conversation about this? i want -- you know, so they are leaning into it. and to david's point, that is where the concern about how people feed off of this becomes something else on the back end of it. when it does become a standby moment. we're standing by, just give us the word. and that to me is more telling and i think this legitization around the idea, well, he is a presidential candidate, so we should cover him like we would

cover joe biden or any other presidential candidate, that is a slippery slope i think. >> i totally agree with you. yeah. and also there is a -- and we stopped carrying sarah huckabee sanders' briefings because she was using the white house podium to spew disinformation from -- with all that you are describing. the connotation that it is an official place of the united states government. she was using it for political purposes and for lies. but you can still watch it without broadcasting it and convey anything important. there is sort of a third path. i want to press both of you 6 what that looks like but we'll squeeze in a quick break. t lookl squeeze in a quick break . what that looks like but we'll squeeze in a quick break. what that looks like but we'll squeeze in a quick break treatted.com that's treatt-e-d.com. (bobby) my store and my design business? we're exploding.

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we are back with david jolly and michael steele. i want to do this respectfully. i want to come back at you, david, about people needing to see him. if donald trump were applying for a low level job at the white house, i don't think he could clear the background check because of the handling of classified documents. if he wanted to visit, i don't think he would get in because he is under investigation for plotting a coup against the u.s. government. is there anything that's still unknown in terms of the opaque nature of the criminal investigations into -- he is under investigation in georgia and they think he represents such a threat, she's issued alerts to law enforcement. he created a tinderbox in this

country is a known view. does that change your view? >> it doesn't change my conclusion. i agree. i agree with michael. i can feel the love coming from viewers and the twitter sphere on this. it should not be a rehab project. he is not deserving of it. he has been found liable for sexual assault, engaged in an insurrection, has been accused of business fraud, tampering with an election. what is unique in this situation is he is leading in the polls and may be the next president, without any of this platforming. how do we assure to educate america on this? we cover it but don't empower it, like you do every day and i'm sure tonight during the 8:00 hour. how do you cover this dangerous direction that he wants to take the country without platforming it? everything you mentioned, god bless her, caitlyn collins, say that to the former president

tonight. confront him. let voters and viewers see his reaction. what we learned in '18 and '20 and '22 and there's too much donald trump. see him lie to them one more time. >> donald trump achieved his lowest approval ratings, michael steele, when he was doing the daily covid briefings. the country said, we are dropping dead in part because of your incompetence. i come down on the other side, that platforming him is too dangerous when you look at the warnings and the way content swirls. again, i cover him. i think it's complicated. what's your advice, michael steele? i know you have a lot to say about the chase and how we cover him. >> i totally get it. it's complicated. i come down on really -- at the end of the day, to david's last point, i don't think it makes a difference. i don't think -- we have had seven years of this.

it's not like we are vealing anything new. the level of shock and awe is long since dissipated when it come to anything related to donald trump. what's surprising in the e. jean carroll case is that he was convicted. what was surprising, that the new york d.a. brought charges. there's no expectation that that will happen. in one sense, david is right. get him in front of the cameras and let him riff and maybe there's that, my god, no, i remember i didn't like that. my concern and fear is, a lot of americans are past that. they are like, i don't get what the issue is. again, this seems a little overdone. they are hammering this guy for no reason. that's where his playing the victim comes into play more than anything else. that changes the way people look at him. >> the study -- the march dispassionate study of extremism

and disinformation, he has a rip -- reptilian reflex to tap into it. what was the mueller thing about? an interesting moment. i'm grateful to have a frank conversation with the two of you. thank you so much. up next, a real treat. a close friend and confidante to e. jean carroll will be our guest. don't go anywhere. ll be our guest. don't go anywhere. ♪ the thought of getting screened ♪ ♪ for colon cancer made me queasy. ♪ ♪ but now i've found a way that's right for me. ♪ ♪ feels more easy. ♪ ♪ my doc and i agreed. ♪ ♪ i pick the time. ♪ ♪ today's a good day. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way

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yesterday was the happiest day of my life. >> was it? how come? what was the feeling? >> the former president had smeared me so badly and so evilly and with such malice and such spite that it wasn't until yesterday i got back up on my feet and felt, my name is back. >> you forget what it's like to have your reputation stolen from you. hi, again. an elated e. jean carroll this morning after yesterday's historic verdict that found former president donald trump liable for sexually abusing and defaming her. a unanimous decision that took less than three hours for the jury to reach after it started deliberations. this win for e. jean carroll marked a momentous day for

victims of sexual abuse everywhere, especially the more than two dozen women who have accused the ex-president of sexual misconduct. it was when trump will for the first time face legal accountability for his treatment of women. the jury awarded her $5 million in damages. although, we should note they did not find trump liable for the claim specifically of rape. over the trial, we heard her describe the alleged rape in great detail. and speak about her life, what it has been like and how she struggled every day since. the testimony and questioning were at times emotional and very graphic on e. jean's and other witness' parts and at times repetitive on trump's lawyer joe tacopina's part. a key aspect of tacopina's cross examination of e. jean carroll was trying to paint her as some sort of abnormal or atypical rape victim.

this trial dispelled the notion that a rape victim should act in any certain way. >> before yesterday, there was a concept of the perfect victim. the perfect victim always screams, always reports to the police, always makes note when it happened. then her life is supposed -- the perfect victim's life is supposed to fold up and she's never sort of supposed to be happy again. yesterday we demolished that old concept. it is gone. it is gone. i'm overwhelmed with happiness for the women of the country. it's not about me so much. it's about every woman. >> trump still denies her allegations, attacking her and the judge in this case on his platform called truth social. he vowed to appeal the ruling. carroll's lawyer says she rarely

felt more confident for an appeal than about this one. it's a remarkable defeat for the ex-president. a win for the rule of law. >> the ex-president found liable for sexual abuse and defamation is where we begin the hour. joining us here at the table, writer and e. jean carroll's longtime friend who testified at the battery and defamation trial, lisa. we are happy to have you as a guest. thank you for being here. also joining us, two members of her phenomenal legal team.

they made history. let me start with you. i said this yesterday, without being ininformed, but imagining there had to be this exhalation. i love what she said about getting her reputation back. anyone who has gone toe to toe with trump has been smeared by him at some point. for her to feel like it was first time her name had been cleared in all these years, you could just hear the emotion in that. for the people who carry this -- she kept a secret. who carry the secret with her all those years, how did you feel? >> i felt the same way. i felt that she got really battered in this trial. it hurt to see -- she's already a skinny skinny woman of a cert age get really maligned and slammed. they did the same to carol

martin and me, too. but the fact that she weathered it and didn't give up, it was a beautiful thing and very, very moving. i'm surprised she could get out of bed this morning, honestly. >> it's probably a little bit of adrenaline. she might feel some of that coming down to earth. i wonder what you can tell us about the story that was told in court. i mean, it was a brilliant legal strategy and it worked. at the end of the day, you were the human beings who had to bring it to life for the jury. what was that like? >> i knew i was telling the truth. that made everything possible. i knew that she's not -- she may be a little eccentric, but e. jean is not a liar. she's not a myth maker. it wasn't easy for her to tell me all those years ago when i

was heating up nuggets for my children that this -- >> we all do. >> that she was raped. she didn't use the word. she told me that he had attacked her in the dressing room. the thing was, he wasn't a president. he wasn't presidential. he wasn't politically adjacent. he was more like crazy eddie or a retail new york figure who would get on the news in any way possible. it didn't seem out of character. but yet, he did that to her. she didn't want anyone to know, because that's not e. jean. she's not a victim. she didn't want pity. >> it's your conversation with her -- i first heard it in the episode of "the daily" where you are tell -- she's describing -- she's giving you a rundown or play by play what happens in the dressing room. you tell her, he raped you.

she reacts almost viscerally, no, no, don't say that again. did you abide by her request? >> i did. i asked her to go to the police. she said, no. by now i have left the kitchen. i don't want my very young children to hear the word rape. chicken nuggets are probably worse than hearing that. i said, he raped you. i will take you to the police. she would have none of that. none of that. for all these years i thought, 1940s, indiana, press pa -- we don't come out. i realized, she's weathered some things. as her best friend, i didn't even know them. >> you managed to piece together

her life from the alleged rape to yesterday. to not shy away from everything that we all put on you. that this was also a moment, perhaps the most closely watched sexual abuse and rape trial in a most me too movement. how did you do that? >> i think to lisa's point, i think that the strength of e. jean is that she is unapologetically e. jean. she can be a bit eccentric, but she's a truth teller. she is herself. she was herself in 2019 when she wrote the book. she was herself on the witness stand through three days of pretty grueling direct and then cross examination. i think generally, juries relate to that. they see that. they saw the truth. they believed her. so i think really just letting e. jean be e. jean, letting her tell her truth in the way that she feels comfortable telling it, it worked here. >> the architecture of what was

presented seemed to bring to life what happened at the time. again, the jury bought that. the story she told at the time to her friends. and the other women over a longer span of time who were treated and abused by trump in the same way. >> the challenge was never e. jean's account or her life. the truth was on our side. i appreciate you saying it was a brilliant legal strategy, but we had the truth. >> a lot of people go against trump with the truth and lose. >> that's fair. our most difficult job in terms of lawyering was just helping the jury understand from e. jean in her own words, why was she saying things like, i'm fine, i'm fine, i'm fabulous? she minimize so deeply. she pushes things so deeply inside her. you didn't want the jury to be confused when you say this horrible thing happened but i see 40 interviews where you say

you are fabulous and fine. we wanted her to explain that. >> $5 million suggests the jury didn't think she was fine. >> i think that's right. >> can we talk about the trump deposition? i have covered trump for seven years. when he talks, you always know that he is the most likely person to hurt himself. david jolly just made a point in a political way. but it is true. he can't talk without harming himself. i wonder what you thought when you saw him mistake e. jean for his second wife. >> that was crazy. >> what? >> yes. then he did it again. >> and again. he does it three times. >> i mean, the wildest thing about his deposition is that he didn't just deny the claims. he went so much further than that. he attacked robbie, who was taking the deposition. he doubled down on the offensive and horrible things he said, not just about e. jean but robbie, the justice system.

i guess trump is unapologetically himself. that means that he will stop at nothing to say whatever pops into his head to protect himself and attack whoever he perceives to be slighting him. >> it was like a word salad though. >> always is. >> when he said, i studied history for the last million years. men have been doing this to women unfortunately or fortunately. just stop talking, man. >> what is it about the "access hollywood" tape, playing it and asking him about it in the deposition, that was so important? >> i will let sean speak to the deposition. in terms of the -- at trial, it was twofold. the obvious thing in the tape he is describing what he did to e. jean, natasha and jessica. moving on them without any sort of warning. >> why? what he did and why he did it.

>> at the beginning of the recording, he describes taking a woman furniture shopping and moving on her. what we said was, that's what he did with e. jean. he was shopping with her until he wasn't. we thought there were multiple aspects of that video at trial that were very compelling. >> what is it about -- what would you have done with him if he had shown up? did you want him to show up? what would you have asked him? >> we had a lot of questions prepared for him. again, i think it would have been another example of him doubling down, of him going after whoever, the judge, the jury maybe, for sure the lawyers, for sure e. jean. really, when you have taken someone's testimony in a deposition and then they show up at trial, a big part of it is locking them into the prior statements that they have made. he has made so many damaging statements. he is so willing to repeat them and go further that we would have been happy to have him come. >> was e. jean -- did she have

an opinion about whether he showed up or not? >> she thought he might. as the trial got closer, we sort of believed he was a coward and wouldn't show up. >> do e. jean and the others have a connection? are they -- the thing i thought that was so powerful was that the only thing that ties these people together is what trump did to them. do they now stay in touch? are they supportive of each other? >> they do. e. jean wrote a series of profiles of the 19, 26 -- >> we are at 26. >> women who she could for the "atlantic" magazine. they are an unusual sisterhood. i know natasha was very emotional during her testimony and during the subsequent days. it's been very touching to see their day in court, through e.

jean. she enabled that to happen. >> what does e. jean understand? she sounds like she was so motivated by sort of standing so other women would speak out. if you can hold the most powerful person in the world accountable, you can hold anyone accountable. how much did that weigh on her? how much did that sustain her? >> i think it was everything. she wasn't doing this for money. she wasn't doing it -- she wanted to clear her name. that is for sure. she is 79 years old. she was doing this so that it couldn't happen to other women. she's not just patriotic. she is heroic. i don't think it's overstating it. >> what was the -- it seemed from the outside like a turning point for tacopina to make this claim that because she didn't scream it wasn't a real rape. what was the impact on the jury?

>> as we know, that's really when e. jean had her probably most emotional moment on the stand. really showed herself and who she was. i think -- again, when you got nothing, you play the cards you are dealt. >> fair. >> what was i think sort of a misstep was if you say i was never there, i don't know this woman, this never happened, why does it matter if you scream? why does it matter? you have a jury that's confused. are you arguing she consented or he wasn't there? you allowed this very brave and a woman who feels things deeply if at times she hides it, to have a moment there to say, you can't speak to me like this. you can't put this antiquated notion on me. on the one hand, i didn't think it was going to help him. it allowed her to have a powerful moment. i think we know the jury processed that. >> from the outside, it seemed

like a moronic thing to do. you have no idea what anyone brings to having to make a decision or evaluate the evidence. it seemed that trump's defenses were in contradiction. when you are a star they let you do it. i guess i'm a star, fortunately, unfortunately. she's a whack job. i never heard of it. do you think the jury was confused? >> i think that. i'm a star, they let do you it was from the "access hollywood" tape when he thought no one was listening. then he doubled down on it in the deposition. i think joe tacopina, he is an experienced lawyer. he is skilled. but he sort of was left with the throw spaghetti on the wall strategy. had a bunch of defenses that as this jury clearly did, when you sit down and think about them and pick them apart, they can't all be true. if none of them -- if they can't all be true, then none are true. i think it didn't take the jury long to figure that out.

>> was e. jean confident? she seems like someone very sort of humble, doesn't get ahead of a moment. was she -- did she have an expectation for what was going to happen yesterday? >> honestly, after four or five years of preparing for that day, i think she was cautiously pessimistic. i think she was really feeling like, okay, if it doesn't work, we will put on our lipstick, we will get a new pair of tights and we will do it again. i think this is very overwhelming in the best, best way. i mean, she put a dent -- i thought of this last night. i haven't said it. you may have heard me. she put a dent in his teflon. there has never been any. >> totally. totally. >> this is forever. >> the likes of mueller have tried. i asked that question because i think some of the psychological

trauma of watching trump do what he does on "access hollywood" and 26 women come out and accuse him of sexual misconduct and abuse, is that -- i felt the same way. i said, i can't watch. i was standing in a colleague's office. i'm going to put a dress on. i'm going to go put my lipstick on. i can't watch. what is it about the sort of sanctity of a legal process that the facts could have their day in court literally? >> look, it's well said. the judge bent over backwards to give trump his day in court. to the point where he said, you have rested your case. if you want to reopen it, i will hear you. if mr. trump wants to come. we had a jury of six men, three women from all around new york, new york city, but also upper

boroughs. they were not confused at all. it's the worst system except for the others. but when it's right, you know it's right. if that makes sense. >> it totally does. i think that's what we -- it was disorienting it all seemed to work. to your point, it was this rare dent in his armor. i have so many more questions. i need you to stick around. we need to squeeze in a short break. there's much more on e. jean carroll's story, her monumental victory in court. what it means for women everywhere. plus, what she said to joe tacopina. tucker carlson is back in the news. too toxic for fox news. he found a new home with a lot less oversight. what could go wrong? for him to spread his harmful lies. the real danger of replatforming him, a far right wing extremist who promoted anti-semitic and racist and anti-lgbtq hate who was too much for fox. that's later in the house. don't go anywhere.

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i understand you had an exchange with joe tacopina after the jury delivered its verdict. what did you say to each other? >> joe is extremely likeable. and so, of course, he is congratulaing the whole team. my turn came up. he put out his hand. i looked him in the eye. i said, he did it and you know it.

then we shook hands. >> did he say anything back? >> he is extremely charming. he smiled. we got through it. >> we are all back. part of her credibility is she's so generous toward everybody, even the lawyer who was trying to impugn her credibility. >> it's true. at the end of her cross examination, she went up to him and said, you are a good lawyer and shook his hand. yesterday when the verdict was read, we were filing out of the courtroom. as she said, he went up to congratulate her. she looked him in the eye and she said, he did it and you know did he it. then just walked away. he kept walking. >> i don't know if you have seen this what chris christie said.

>> to his credit, i remember chris christie telling me at the time that michael cohen was ensnared. this was the greatest threat to donald trump because cohen knew all of his sort of -- things he kept secret. chris christie seems to have watched your closing argument. each of our witnesses took the stand and swore an oath to tell the truth. their testimony is consistent and overwhelming. the guy calling them a liar is the only one who did not testify, who wouldn't swear an oath in the courtroom without admitting he assaulted miss

carroll. this was never a he said she said case. we had too many witnesses for that. at the end of this trial, we see there wasn't even a he said because donald trump never looked you in the eye and denied it. this is specific to this case but also quintessential donald trump. i know lawyers never like to project their cases on to others. do you think that other victims and other groups of lawyers are looking at the ak success you had? >> we hope so. that's what e. jean was trying to accomplish with this. i know i speak for the team and for e. jean as well when we say we hope people who have been through these things will say to themselves, people will believe me. i can have my day in court and i won't be shamed. a jury of my peers will say, that happened. we certainly hope so. >> there's this piece that --

covering trump for seven years, you get to interview a lot of lawyers. there's this logic and common sense that we understand people are asked not to suspend. the piece of logic and common sense is what chris christie is getting at, 26 random women are just coincidentally alleging the same act by the guy who says he does it all the time with billy bush? >> yes. and? >> what do you think should happen next? >> you know, i think -- i always wonder back from the days i was at "spy" magazine and watching him, that here is a guy who has every advantage and privilege one could imagine. yet, he wakes up angry. he wakes up in a golden bed, pees in a golden toilet and is irritated, enraged, a bully, a cry baby. i don't know. i still don't understand why

people are so excited to support him. >> i have said this about his voters, usually in american elections, the side that wins is so happy. they won. the other side cries. this was the opposite. his supporter were more pissod after he won than before. he spread this way of thinking. >> the idea that he may fund-raise off of this loss, the idea that he will gain supporters over his now fact of law that he is a sexual assailant -- i like to say that -- >> it's true. >> is remarkable. who are those americans? what do they think they get from him? they are much more interested in protecting him than he is of protecting them. >> totally. i remember -- i covered "access hollywood." i remember some of the republicans in the room when it dropped thought he should drop off the ticket.

pence was one of them. this analysis that it has no political import is ludicrous. just because he still prevailed -- i think if chris christie's message reaches enough people in possession of their common sense, what are the odds? how much was that part of the story you were telling? rely on your common sense. >> it was a huge part of the story. it was absolutely a part of the story. when someone tells you who they are in an unvarnished moment where they don't know anyone is listening, believe them. he told you what he does. he told you what he has done. he told you what he will do again if he is not stopped. believe them. believe him. >> because it has been happening for a million years. what was that? >> that was a crazy, totally unscripted moment i'm sure his lawyers did not like. >> can we go back to mixing up e. jean with marla? these are pieces that these women -- he said about -- his

reflexes is, not my type. he couldn't discern the difference between his wife -- let's listen to it one last time. >> i don't even know who -- let's see. i don't know -- it's marla. >> you are saying marla is in the photo. >> that's marla, yeah. that's my wife. >> which woman are you pointing to? >> here. >> the person you pointed to is e. jean carroll. the woman on the right is your then wife. >> i assume that's -- is that carroll? it's very blurry. >> it's not blurry. what do you do with that? >> exactly what we did. i will say, when the jurors saw that in the opening, the looks

on their faces, which of course is the looks that were on all of our faces when we first saw it, but you know, it was one of the most powerful pieces of evidence. the jurors were very attentive, very focused and very difficult to read. except for that moment. big smiles, almost laughter in the jury box. it was devastating. >> let's be real about what she's not my type means. it means she's not hot enough for me to grab them in the bleep which stars have been doing for a million years. that's what he is saying when he says that. he can't tell her apart from marla maples. >> the joke is that e. jean carroll was his type. it's not a joke. she was gorgeous and leggy and vivacious and fabulous. she looked exactly like every woman he liked. there's no two ways about it. for him to confuse her -- by the

way, that's his wife marla with his wife ivana. it does get a little crowded in there. >> how much do you think the jury found him not only to not be credible but not to be at all likeable? i'm guessing that might sting more than the $5 million check. >> i think they did. when mike said they were smiling when we first sort of pointed out that he had mistaken e. jean for his wife, i think they were -- it was incredulous. what? then they saw the tape. then they saw his own words. he doesn't just answer a question. he goes on attack and is insulting and sarcastic. it was hard to come away from that liking the guy. >> two questions. do you think -- i saw him -- robbie is a genius.

her performance was riveting. she says -- we call it the p word because it's 5:30 in the east. i promised i wouldn't say it on tv. when she says it, he doesn't even flinch. i said it. that's my word. what was it about the strategy to depose him with his own words? was there anything that surprised you or her? >> the misidentification was a surprise. robbie had a brilliant strategy throughout the deposition was to not react and not let him get to her, even when he was coming after her. >> you are not my type. >> all these things about her. she asked him a question. for four minutes he attacks everyone. he would finish and she would say, are you done? is that a yes or no? she just didn't let him rile her up. i think her being calm and

remaining respectful riled him up. >> yeah. totally in control, which we know he hates. >> he hates that. also the thing about, and you are not my type, i tell you. he has so many extra words. he just has to fling in rage. natasha he said i wouldn't pick her, i can tell you. she's beautiful. it is so -- what playbook does he have that to feel bigger you have to destroy everything in your sight? >> just even that was answered by witness testimony. he didn't pick me. i was sitting next to him. his penchant for abuse was so reflexive. there was an answer for everything. >> agree. let's not forget another very powerful piece of testimony in this sort of vein of spitefulness, which was how she

concluded her testimony with the story about donald trump seeing her again at this gala where she was dressed to the nines and was having one of the nights of her life and he said, you are that c-u-n-t from the plane. the jurors who were poker faced, you could see them look, did i just hear that right? this is coming from a lovely 80-year-old woman with no ax to grind, not on social media. it was a powerful moment. >> do we have her comments outside the courthouse? let me just end with this. let me play this. >> i would like to express my support for e. jean carroll with her suit against trump. her story rings true to me. i also would like to encourage anyone who has suffered sexual aggression to know they are not

alone and they can speak up. it seems society and perpetrators won't get the message of how damaging aggression is until it becomes apparent and it's so rampant, which it is. go ask your mothers, your wives, your sisters, your daughters and your sons. thank you. >> an unbelievable moment, i guess, for all this. i can only imagine -- i will give you the last word on that. >> bravo to her. bravo to e. jean. to the justice system and you guys who are my new heroes. if you are a woman and you have worked in america, you have probably been through some hassle, some harassment. there is now a positive spin on

taking it forward and standing up for yourself. >> it's remarkable. congratulations to both of you. >> couldn't have done it without her. >> thank you to all of you. >> thanks for having us. fox news can stop tucker carlson from spreading hate. what could go wrong now that tucker is moving to elon musk's platform? that story is next. which is why we made bounce pet hair and lint guard with three times the pet hair fighting ingredients. just one sheet helps remove pet hair from your clothes! looking good starts in the dryer with bounce pet. somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people

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just over two weeks ago, amid pressure brought on from the lawsuit brought by dominion voting systems, a fed-up fox news made the decision to fire its most watched host, number one purveyor of hateful rhetoric, tucker carlson. in the days that followed, the main question was whether carlson, despite that, would find some other home, some other outlet or platform on which he could continue spewing his con conspiracies and lies. it seems for now that tucker has found a home. in a video posted late yesterday afternoon to twitter, carlson announced he would start a new show on the social media site itself calling twitter the last platform in the word that allows in his words free speech. details on vague on what it would be. it seems his announcement means he would be willing to go 25

million in pay from fox. the interesting thing about tucker's move to twitter to us is the fact that the platform is run by none other than elon musk, who appeared on tucker's last few shows, what pandered to the political right almost every day since taking over twitter. most famously by reinstating the disgraced ex-president's account. musk said in a tweet, twitter had not signed any deal with carlson whatsoever. but the combination of the platform and carlson's words and penchant for spreading misinformation and hate could make for a horrifying and dangerous combo. joining our coverage, jeremy peters as well as the ceo of the

anti-defamation league. i know your focus isn't where i think musk and tucker would like everyone's folk us to be, free speech. it's about what kind of speech and the consequences of the speech and the language and the words that they know can be inciteful and that they intend to damage and discriminate. your reaction to today's news? >> yeah. i mean, i was fairly bewildered to see that tucker carlson managed to get fired from fox and then find a new home for his anti-semitism, his racism, his xenophobia on twitter. bewilders but somewhat bemused. the idea that this is free speech is profoundly wrong. i mean, platforms, publishers, networks, they make choices about who they elevate and who they ignore. choosing to amplify someone like

tucker carlson would be a catastrophically bad decision for elon musk and twitter. the fact of the matter is that tucker carlson used his daily program to mainstream that kind of hate we haven't seen in this country in decades. he gave it a home. he laundered it every night. he laundered conspiracy theories. he laundered this idea of the great replacement. he laundered white supremacist talking points as if they were simply political observations. let's keep in mind that this was announced just 48 hours after the shooting incident in allen, texas, where a man with neo-nazi sympathies gunned down people based on his bizarre fever dreams of anti-semitism and misogyny and that that happened on sunday and then this sunday is the one-year anniversary of

the massacre in buffalo, new york, at the supermarket where a white supremacist gunned down black shoppers. for this to be what happens in between those two horrible bookends of bigotry and violence seems to me an awful statement for someone like elon musk, who wants to elevate twitter into something mainstream. >> jonathan, tragically, we have been on the air together and i have covered enough mass shootings, that there's a pattern, whether it's el paso, tree of life, buffalo, allen, texas. the mass shooters almost always -- not always, but almost always, have an ar-15-style weapon. the digital footprint almost always includes references to the replacement theory. no one with a bigger platform talked about and in your words laundered the replacement theory more than tucker carlson. >> absolutely correct.

tucker carlson is the father coughlin of our times. >> wow. >> an individual who used mass media to every single night target and victimize particular grous of people. father coughlin went after jews relentlessly. tucker carlson has a wider lens for his unique brand of vitriol. the notion we have to confront him on a daily basis on twitter is too much for many of us. we know the damage he did. >> i want to ask you, jeremy -- i have to sneak in a break. i want to ask you about the business decisions and legal considerations of firing someone views as too toxic for fox news. a quit break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. you don't want -to go bowling with us tonight? -yeah. no. there's my little marzipan! [ laughs ]

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we are back with jeremy peters of "the new york times" and jonathan greenblatt of adl. jeremy, the texts that we learn is the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back, i just want to remind people who tucker is, what he writes and transmits. a couple of weeks ago i was watching an a video of people fighting in the streets of washington.

i couple of trump guys surrounded an antifa kid and started pounding the living [ bleep ] out of im. it was three against one at least jumping a guy like that is dishonorable. it's not how white men fight. somewhere in my brain an alarm went off. the antifa creep is a human being, much as i despice what he says and does, much as i knew i'd despise him personally if i knew him. if i don't care about those things, if i reduce people to their politics, how am i better than he is? tucker carlson does reduce people to their politics. that was the central theme of his show. that is exactly who he is. i read the whole thing because one of his accusations is that it's being taken out of context. this is the whole text. that's the whole thing published.

what do you make of the inflection point, if sit that, from us? >> tucker's video last night, he did the same thing, used the same trope that conservative media has used all along. they're lying to you. >> i have it but i'm not going to play it. that's what he said. >> i'll tell you the truth. you can only trust me. he's going to have a lot smaller of an audience to use those words if he sticks with twitter. i'm not convinced he goes through with it. i'll believe it when i see it. there's a lot that's unresolved about his contract and whether or not he can amicably negotiate an agreement with them to do some other type of media. i'd be surprise first down fox let him do any type of cable television. twitter, i don't know. >> to jonathan's point, what is the universe of people who take someone and replatform someone who was too toxic for fox? >> well, already you are starting to hear noise about a

potential advertiser boycott, of the same forces that pushed many of fox's blue chip advertisers out of tucker carlson's show are starting to talk about about what this might mean to twitter, because elon musk made it very clear he's trying to rebuild the business there, and he could have difficulty with advertisers if they have the same kind of response. and ultimately, what led fox to get rid of tucker carlson was a businesses decision. a lot of people said, didn't they know who he really was? i don't buy it. he says all this stuff on air for years. he became such a liability, and they had voluminous evidence of what a toxic culture they allowed to exist, and what horrendous thicks he said public will i and privately.

>> nobody was advertising in prime anymore. >> except for my pillow, largely, that's right. someone explained to me about the date of birth of advertising on that show, my pillow was like the american express for tucker carlson's show. they didn't have any, because nobody wanted to be associated with him. >> jonathan, this seems to be where the problem lies, right? it should be noncommercial to spread anti-semitism and hate, particularly at a moment in our country when it sits -- extremism. i know the latest studies show that violence rooted in anti-semitism is at an all-time historic high in this country. what concerns me is that that's -- i guess it's out there, but it doesn't seem to be part of the consideration or conversation on the right anymore. >> look, i got to -- i think jeremy's analysis is right -- elon musk, who's been a pretty successful businessman in all the different endeavors he's

undertaken, from tesla to paypal to spacex. he's trying to rebuild twitter. bringing in a flame thrower like tucker carlson will burn the business down. it may be a short-term spike in terms of subscriptions, kind of, you know, it will be a little bit sensational. i think for the first few days, maybe weeks. but as jeremy laid out, businesses will flee from the platform if it is poisoned with anti-semitism and racism and prejudice, and we know this because at adl, we were calling for bans of advertisers or people to get off of tucker's show, and they actually did. the same thing will happen at twitter, which arguably it's the most powerful microphone in social media today. it's got 400 million users. it still remains a place where journalists and influence makers go, but more and more it's going to resemble truth social if they

allow people like tucker carlson to be the main attraction. >> jonathan, i said just that before this segment at. i said, i have a really hard time finding all the news sources that i follow. it's already sort of mashed up and heading in that direction. but this would accelerate that development. jonathan and jeremy, thank you so much for being here and having this conversation with us. to be continued. quick break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. was not let. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... ...is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased

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