your annihilation, you are not trying to feel bad. you are not going to insult. it would, essentially, dissolve the ability to engage in anything like democratic discourse. it dissolves the ability, and to exist in a society as equals. it is an equal relation to the people around me. >> it is one phrase that i think the law professor coined the second amendment meeting but first. >> the second amendment eating the rest of the constitution. >> one of my favorite writers, and thinkers on all matters, and public affairs, thank you so much, come back anytime. that is all in, on this typical wednesday night. alex wagner, tonight, starting right now. good evening alex. >> and it is a, you had a good hour of television. >> i had a good, hour i thought. i won't falsely -- >> take it from me. >> i did have -- >> i had great guess, thoughtful -- >> a thoughtful hour of

television with people speaking the truth. >> thank you. >> good job, buddy. thank you for joining us this hour. this morning, new york congressman, and serial fabulist, george santos, surrendering himself into federal custody. congressman santos, on bail, and has been charged with 13 felonies. it is facing up to 20 years in prison. that is for the most serious felonies. what is the most serious felony, if you ask? congressman santos had so many scandals, it has been genuinely difficult to talk about which ones are talking about here. this is what mr. santos voting his entire resume. it is not even about him pretending that he produced a broadway show, spider-man, turn off the dark. that was, let's say what it was, a weird lie. it's not even about him pretending that he was a champion college volleyball player, which was also a weird lie. or, that his mother was in the south tower on 9/11. it's not even about congressman santos, allegedly, stealing

$3,000 from a disabled homeless veterans dying dogs gofundme. although the fbi is, reportedly, looking into that as well. no, today's charges are about how congressman santos made his money. during his first run for congress, in 2020, santos reported a salary of $55,000 per year. by 2022, he reported a salary of $750,000 per year, plus, 1 million dollars in dividends. he had, somehow, made so much money in those two years, that he was able to lone his own campaign, more than $700,000. where did that money come from? prosecutors allege, a certain chunk of santos newfound wealth came from unemployment assistance. despite, supposedly, having this incredibly lucrative job, mr. santos, allegedly, applied, and received, nearly $25,000 in covid unemployment benefits. that was meant to help people

who were out of work, and having a tough time against a deadly pandemic. class act, mister congressman. that is out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. that is the bigger pot of money. the feds have a much bigger allegation. mr. santos devised, and executed a scheme to the frauds campaign donors through what appears to be a shell company. a shell company, cold by something called, the devolder organization. now, to understand the devolder organization entirely, we need to pack up just a little bit. all the jobs that congressman santos claims to have, the one we know is real, it is a group for harbor city capital. that is mainly because the fcc alleges that harbor city capitol, was quote, a fraudulent ponzi scheme that victimized hundreds of victims across the united states. weeks after that alleged

volunteers can try to get in with the fcc, wouldn't you know what, mr. santos incorporated a new organization called, drumroll please, the devolder organization. in santos own words, the devolder organization was to help all the people who are left adrift at that alleged ponzi scheme that he was part of. our city capital. in other words, santos made a new organization, it is helping find new jobs for people who are part of the old, alleged, ponzi scheme. now, the federal prosecutors are alleging that the new organization devolder would be created from the ashes of an old fraud, that the new organization, also committed fraud. who would have guessed? the devolder organization controlled the political fund. that political fund is a full on grift. they needed to continue money for tv ads for his congressional campaign. he told them, they could donate unlimited amounts of money to that political fund, the one

controlled by devolder, to get those ads on air. prosecutors allege, one stone or sent in their money, it would be deposited into bank accounts controlled by george santos himself. santos used that money for things like, quote, luxury designer clothing, and credit card payments. which, the last time we checked, is not ads for a congressional campaign. today, congressman santos pleaded not guilty to the charges, and denied all of those allegations. >> the reality is, it is a witch hunt. >> it is a witch hunt. that was george santos, after posting bail this afternoon. if this feels trumpy to you, there's a reason for that. one of the big questions here is that, when the republicans decide to do all too much, and if these guys, yesterday, trump was held liable in court for sexual abuse, and defamation. but, even that does not appear

to be a red line, for most republicans in congress. house republican leader, kevin mccarthy, hasn't cake congressman santos out of this conference, are called on them to resign. we did finally see some reaction from him today. they could not support george santos for reelection. george santos, right now, said he needs george santos vote, but next year, next year, congressman santos is on his own, you better believe it. until then, george santos, still, is in the republican conference. still a reliable vote. and, still, unnecessary inconvenience to remain in power. there's another reason why congressman santos invited to feel that this feels frumpy. it's the legal end of things. this could amount to the most actual prison time for congressman santos, which is wire fraud. if there is one thing that is super cut and dry for prosecutors, it is a wire

communication to commit a crime across state lines. you learned last about the special counsel trump is looking for an eerily similar thing to congressman santos. it was mr. trump and his aides, violating federal wire fraud statutes, it is $250 million to, political action committee. they say that they needed to fight to reverse election fraud, even though they have been told, repeatedly, that there was no evidence to back up those fraud claims. they are alleging mr. santos defrauded donors, and they can support the campaign when, relate, the cash was allegedly going into george santos owned bank account. it is saying the dos santos did that to across state lines, which could be wire fraud. jack smith's office, also, investigating trump for, potentially, defrauding voters. using false claims about election fraud, convincing them

to donate via email, across state lines. which, also, could be wire fraud. it is $250 million, and a quarter of a billion dollars. as we watch george santos case play out, it's worth remembering that a lot of what he allegedly did is similar to what trump has, reportedly, don himself. not nearly on the same scale, but could be prosecuted in the same way. george santos, accused of all of these crimes, and it is about him lying to individuals, and the public. trump's legal trouble is that times 250 million. trump's lie, is the big lie. the conspiracy that the 2020 election was somehow stolen, and among other things, led to an insurrection. tonight, at a town hall, in new hampshire, trump was asked if he had any regrets about his actions on january 6th.

people were there that day, quote, because they thought the election was rigged. they were proud. they were there with a love in their heart. it was an unbelievable, and it was a beautiful day. that is what he said to the audience that appeared to be, mostly, filled with trump supporters. the president was asked about his promise to pardon january 6th defendants. >> will you pardon the january 6th rioters who were convicted of federal offenses? >> i am inclined to pardon many of them. i can't say for every single one, because a couple of them, probably, got out of control. what they have done to these people's pews occurred at these people. the answer is, i am most likely, if i get in, i would say, it would be a large portion of them.

it would be very early on. and they are living in hell right now. they are living in hell. their policeman, firemen, soldiers, carpenters, electricians, and great people. many of them, just great people. >> just great people. joining us now, maryland, democratic congressman, and a former member of the january 6th committee. congressman jamie raskin. and mary mccord, visiting professor of law at georgetown university law center, and co-host of the podcast, prosecuting donald trump. congressman, i just want to get your reaction, getting a beautiful day, and that the january six rioters were great people. >> he told a pack of lies tonight about january 6th. including, the fairly new claim that, some how, they tried to make 10,000 soldiers, guards, and to defend the capitol when,

in fact, he was in hiding, essentially, for three hours while the violence unfolded, and did nothing other than we would exacerbate the violence, and enrage followers that tweeted out that vice president pence didn't have the courage to do what needed to be done. he is now repeating these promises, and the january 6th. rioters between violent insurrectionists and, may have been convicted for nonviolent offenses. he could conceivably pardon the proud boys, and he was certain on that. obviously, it is going to commit on hardening the proud boys, or the oath keepers at this point. he is running on an, explicitly, authoritarian program. it is recycling a big lie, and a very big way, and that the whole gop, at least by the evidence of the republicans in that room, seem to be wrapping

themselves around the package of lies, and propaganda, and disinformation that they run on. >> there is lies, and disinformation that american audiences, those that tune in, we're subject to, mary. the fact remains that the big lie, was a lie, and that the big lie is used to solicit money to two trump affiliates, if you will. jack smith may be looking at that action to, basically, grift the american public with the big lie, as evidence of wire fraud. i wonder, how exposed do you think president trump's, minutes ago, again, talking about the big lie that they used to fund-raise? >> who is a part of the investigation that we learned about a, few weeks ago, as you said at the top of the hour, alex, this wire fraud is the bread, and butter, of a federal prosecutor. the prosecution the checks of

it is doing does look, quite similar, to what we are seeing charges brought against george santos for, in record time, i will say. that investigation began right after the election, and already, we have an indictment with 13 charges for george santos. so, with respect to trump, we are not only asking about soliciting donations based on a lie about election fraud, but, potentially, also, lying about how that money was going to be used. which, might actually, be easier to prove then soliciting based on a lie about election fraud. because, he could say, oh, like so many have done, like george santos has done, i was exaggerating, i was in campaign mode, i was soliciting based on exaggeration, which sometimes politicians do. there is also potential lies about what that money would be used for. one, that it would explicitly be put in an election fraud of

fund, to be used for bringing challenges against the election, for recounts, for audits, and the second to being that the second would be doing those things. it is going to be used for recounts, or challenge with audits, it was where the fraud might have occurred, and would be the basis for wire fraud. connecting it to trump, of course, will depend on depending that scheme to solicit those contributions. >> do you think this help explain their willful denial of reality? that multiple investigations, some from his own officials reveal that the 2020 election to be free of fraud? do you think that is, potentially, why he keeps beyond the ego, beyond the political expediency of a loser? do you think there is a legal aspect to this that is trying to see why a? >> here is the complicated

individual, and i think it could be multiple things. he can't stand admitting that he lost, and it looked at this point, he heard it, and was in a green room watching that town hall. you heard it there, him doubling down on that being a rigged election, and i think, in his mind, this is what they truly believed. they truly believed it was rigged. and yes, i have various advisers telling me it wasn't, but i had other people who were agreeing with me, that it was. so, he was corrected, he was attempted to be corrected, several times tonight, but he stuck with it, and i think has multiple reasons that he is doing that. >> congressman, i won't comment on the utility of allowing president trump a platform to broadcast over, and over again, lines that have been debunked, over and over again, but, i do want to get your thoughts on what the president said about the vice president, which you alluded to at the beginning of

our show. whether or not he owed mike pence an apology. i think we have a clip of that if, we could roll that right now. >> one person who is at the capitol that day, as you know, was your vice president, mike pence, who says that you endangered his life on that day. do you -- i >> don't think he wasn't a danger. >> mister president, do you feel you owe him an apology? >> no, he did something wrong. he should've put the votes back to the state legislatures, and i think there would've been a different outcome. i really do. >> congressman, your thoughts on that? especially in light of the fact that mike pence has now testified against donald trump to federal investigators? >> you are -- a victim denigration is certainly a way of life for donald trump. he did it with miss carroll this evening, or he said, what kind of woman goes into a dressing room with a man in new york? then he did it with mike pence, saying, he was wrong. it was his fault.

the mob was, essentially, on the right side. the crowd was chanting, hang mike pence, hang mike pence, and he never done anything to apologize to mike pence, or he has never done anything other than try to excuse, and apologize, for the violence. this was just a fraction of the lies that he was telling. for example he said, under roe v. wade, the supreme court, guaranteed, you can have an abortion up to the ninth month. anybody who knows anything about roe v. wade knows, it is the trimester framework. the woman's choice in the first trimester, there can be some regulation in the interest of maternal health in the second trimester. the third trimester, the procedure can be banned, completely, in which it was in most of the country. he was simply lying about that. refusing to answer the question, whether or not, he would sign a federal abortion ban, in which case, of course, he would. he was lying about china, and its approach on covid-19. he defended general xi, and the chinese communist party, more

than two dozen different times for talking about how wonderful xi's leadership was, and how he was in such close contact with them about covid-19. now, he is trying to claim, he was a whistleblower about china, but all of that to cover up, for his own, murderous, recklessness, in terms of managing covid-19, with his own covid adviser, deborah birx, saying, we lost at least 140, 250,000 people, because of decisions that were made by his administration. so, i thought it was a shameful, and disgraceful thing to see, but i think it is just an omen of what is to come. by the way, he also refused to stand up for ukraine against russia, filthy, bloody, imperialist aggression against the democratic society. i am trying to equate russia, and ukraine, which is like equating the aggressors and world war ii, with the victim nations. it was to continue to arm, and

to defend the democratic resistance of ukraine against russia's invasion. this is just scandalous, and outrageous, and in that case he said he, he doesn't believe in winning, and losing, and certainly it is the first time i have ever heard him say that before. when he gets into office, the war was over and 24 hours. we've heard a lot of promises like that before. i don't think he's going to get back into office, because i think that the vast majority of the country understands, he is an absolute liar, and a con man. now, he has been found by the jury of his peers of the central abuser, and defamer of women. >> the title, the hurricane of lies, is most difficult to annotate. you did an admiral job, congressman. before i go, there was trump's web of lies in which he exists, and there is the reality. the reality is what dictates our judicial system, and the reality is, trump may be thinking he's in a position to pardon oath keepers, and proud

boys, but it seems like jack smith maybe weighing seditious conspiracy charges for donald trump himself. do you think that is it all likely? >> i certainly think it is on the table, and if there is evidence for which jacks mitt believes that he could prove every element of seditious conspiracy upon a reasonable doubt, i do think that they will strongly consider bringing that charge. just like one of the criminal referrals from congressman morass can, and the house select committee was for giving aid to, and comfort, to an insurrection. again, that has not been charged at, with respect to any of the other january 6th -- any january six rioters, but i think that anything is on the table. it will all depend on what the evidence is to support it. i don't think that they will take risks, and bring any charges that, they think, are dubious in terms of the ability to be proof. first of all, that would be against department of justice policy, they don't want to take risks, but i do think that they will not hesitate to bring

charges, if they think they have the evidence. so, that is why this is gone on as long as it has gone on. that is why we are seeing so many people go into that grand jury that are very high level advisers to the former president, including, of course, mike pence. to see if they can make those connections to bring all of the charges that they, feel, they can prove, and should be brought. >> proud boys going to jail, oath keepers going to jail, mike pence testifying against donald trump. donald trump is, potentially, at a summer of criminal indictments. he may be living in his universe, but the truth is out there, and coming for him. congressman raskin, mary mccormack, thank you for taking the time tonight. we have a lot more to get to this evening, including the latest on the fulton county investigation into efforts to overturn the election. one of the fake electors is now reclaiming his own innocence, or pointing a finger at trump's lawyers. first, congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez joins us live, and we have so much to talk

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and current presidential candidate, donald trump, answered questions about the verdict they found him liable for a sexual abuse in the defamation of writer, e. jean carroll. cnn's kaitlan collins, asking

trump, whether he believes the verdict will deter women from voting for him. trump said no, and then interrupted himself to share something, truly, stomach turning. >> what kind of woman meet somebody, brings them up, and within minutes, you are playing hanky pinky in a dressing room? okay? >> they found that you sexually abused her. >> they said that he didn't rape her. >> they did not say that. >> i wouldn't do anything else, because i've no idea who she is. >> mister president, can i ask you, given your recounting -- >> i don't know her, and i'll tell you this. are you ready? and i swear on my children, which i never do. i have no idea who this woman -- this is a fake story. i have no idea who the -- she is a whack job. >> in the hours since he found trump liable for sexual abuse, in the hours since he was found liable for sexual abuse and definition, trump has not missed a chance to deny any of

this. this prompted this defamation case. they still claim he doesn't know e. jean carroll. he still claims that she is a liar, and that the case against him is a witch hunt. he did that, all, tonight, to, as a presidential candidate. he did it in front of a room of republican voters who laughed. now we're meeting with congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez. congresswoman ocasio-cortez, it is a pleasure to have you here tonight. this is what we have to argue tonight. yesterday, when that verdict was read, i think a lot of people felt like there was real progress in american society for victims of sexual assault. today, listening to the howls of laughter of the former president of the united states made fun of a woman that he was found criminally liable for sexually assaulting, two howls of laughter. it felt like something far worse than backsliding, or

regression. i don't know what to call it. i wonder where you make where we are, and a culture. >> there was a profound courage, and sacrifice, that a survivor like e. jean carroll makes. survivors across the country make this. many, who often go unrecognized, in this courageous act of coming forward. this is coming as the story of an assault. what i saw tonight is a continued demonstration of a sacrifice that women, and survivors of sexual abuse across the country, of all genders, and of the sacrifices that they make our order to come forward, and challenge power. what we did see tonight was a consequence of doing that. they sacrificed their anonymity, they sacrificed their safety, and they sacrificed all of this, because we continue to live in a society where an overwhelming

amount of structures allow this abuse to happen, and find it permissible. they say that they will not comment on the platform of such atrocious disinformation, but i would. i think it was profoundly, and irresponsible decision. i believe that i would be doing my job, if i did not say that. what we saw, tonight, it was a series of extremely irresponsible decisions to put a sexual abuse victim at risk. this puts that person at risk in front of a national audience, and i could not have agreed with it anymore. it was shameful. >> a lot of people will echo those points in the coming hours, and days. the president which, our expectations for it, collectively, are fairly low. but, he exceeded, even those low expectations. i have to ask you how you felt of how you feel about the revision-ism around january

6th. we have heard, for months now, the january 6th insurrection, and rioters, they're tested on election, our heroes. people who have been treated badly, deserve better conditions because they are treated by, quote unquote, hail. the former president, echoing that, suggesting, he might question many, if not all of them. you lived through january six, and you said it felt like you are going to die. i think it is important in this moment to champion the voice of victims, and it is a victim that day. so, how does this feel to you? how does this narrative feel to you? >> i made a statement, about two weeks ago. in that statement, i stated that january 6th was just a dress rehearsal for some of these folks. i believe that the former president really echoed that sentiment tonight. why else would you pardon people who perpetuated a terrorist attack, on the united

states capitol? this is a support for the person in a potential effort to do it again. it is refusing tonight to say, and we would not only recognize the results of the 2020 election, but refused outright to acknowledge any outcome, respecting any outcome, of a 2024 election. this is a profoundly dangerous moment. what we saw on january 6th was a dress rehearsal. what we are seeing is that being set as an example, in state legislators, all across the country in an ability to spend democracy and states like tennessee, and montana, and they follow the presidents example, and are committing, truly, unprecedented acts to expel, sensor, or, generally, barr members, duly elected

legislative officials from entering the legislation that they're elected to. this is a moment that they win tonight, and for him as going to be that they would belie, and had attempted to recall the national guard. i'll tell you, we were barricaded in a room, what the lights off, it would be the entire day. there will be out the window, trying to figure out if we can break the glass to jump out, and if so, how would we not be recognized, or killed. we knew, when the sun was setting, it was -- there was no indication that it was coming. it was terrifying. that won't even hold a candle to what donald trump is capable of.

they would stop on january 6th. he was stopped from what he, ultimately, wanted to do. he repeated that tonight. what should have happened is that mike pence should've overturn the election. that is what he said, tonight. for as bad as january 6th is, i believe that the former president, former president trump, would not have qualms about going further, without a shadow of the doubt. >> i think it is hard for us to grapple with that trump has, sort of, outline for the republican party, if not the country, what he would like to see in a 2024 election. but, it is very certain that trump has created a model for a new politician. they would have to ask you george santos. george santos was not called for an insurrection, they would just lie with impunity, and you'll never have to pay a price.

and it will seem like you pays a price. they've certainly leaned at the near ladapo trump, is that the truth doesn't matter. what is his future in congress? what do you think, can and should, happen? he is part of the new york delegation. can you give us any insight into how it is that this person is, still, acting? emphasis on the word acting, as an elected representative? >> your point about donald trump setting the model is a very astute one. even what we saw, today, is that after yesterday's announcements of these charges and these counts. this morning, the counts in the indictment, being unsealed, 13 counts of criminal activity, varying the spectrum of different kinds of offenses. george santos publicly declared it a witch hunt. he went on twitter, he decided to take, wholesale, a page out of donald trump's book, and who

attacked the courts, deciding to attack a potential investigation, and to claim that as his breaking of the law, and his acknowledgment of that, that these indictments of that could be political persecution, an act of political persecution, in all of this which is, truly, cut from the cloth of former president trump. it is not a coincidence, whatsoever. we are seeing this in any semblance of accountability as a witch hunt. that attack, of the truth, that attack on the our institutions, the attacks on our courts, the attacks on any semblance of the structures, and the rules, and the guides that we all, each of us, live up to, that, in and of itself, is the game to attack any narrative, or any fact that inconveniences you as biased.

and, the facts that favor you as being the capital t truth, which is the very definition. it cuts at the very core of trumpism. it's what leads to calls a personality, it is how you condition your followers to not question any set of facts that may cast you in a negative light, and it is a very serious moment that we should all take, very seriously. in terms of his future, he should resign, but i don't think he will. just like president trump, i don't think there is any amount of pressure that leads an individual like that to draw withdraw, unless, of course, unless they were in custody, frankly. >> that's a new bar. a democracy if you can keep it. sunday, some moments, these years, not whether they can go with us. alexandra ocasio-cortez, and

thank you so much. >> of course, thank you. >> still to come, despite trump losing georgia in 2020 by about 12,000 votes, 16 fake electors certified their state vote for trump, anyway. half of them, now getting immunity deals. one of the ones who did not get an immunity deal, now, arguing, if anything they did was illegal, look to trump's legal team. we talk about that, just ahead. at, just ahead

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it is totally okay if you missed this headline, here. quote, georgia gop chairman says, he was just following orders from trump lawyers. that gop chairmen, david schaffer. he is the man you see, right here, leading the fake elector meeting in georgia, on december 14th of 2020. to fulton county d.a., fani willis, who is investigating trump's efforts to overturn the results of the presidential election in georgia, to fani willis, mr. schaffer is key. he has been singled out by the judge overseeing this case for the unique role that he played out in the day those fake electors met. when fani willis offered immunity to a group of fake electors, in exchange for collaboration, mr. schaffer was, reportedly, not included in that group. faced with this reality, schaffer's legal team sent a letter to dea willis, one that

was obtained by the atlanta journal-constitution, a letter trying to ward off an indictment against mr. schaffer. the lawyers argument is, everything mr. schaffer did was based on legal advice provided by trump lawyers. quote, every action by mr. schaffer, as a presidential elect, or nominee, or contingent elector, which is what they were calling the fake electors, contingent electors. is that every actual taken in conformity with, and reliance upon the repeated, and detailed advice, of legal counsel. to see this, they attach a familiar name to alex kaufman. kaufman tells schaffer men, it's important that schaffer carry out that fake elector meeting. quote, david, i am reconfirming the importance, and our collective advice that our slate of delegates, again, the fake electra's, that they meet on december 14th, and cast their ballots in favor of president trump. i believe that this is still the most conservative courts of action to preserve the best

chance for georgia to ultimately support the presidents reelection. so, that's in case you missed it, team trump offering its collective advice that the fake electors meet and cast their ballots for donald trump on december 14th. and the lawyers add that if the fake electors plot was somehow used in nefarious fashion to, i don't know, try and steal an election -- while then, mr. schaffer had no idea about any of that. media reports have suggested that certain high-level members of then president trump's legal team, including john eastman, rudy giuliani, may have developed subsequent plans to attempt to persuade vice president pence to count these contingent presidential electoral votes, fake elector votes, as about valid electoral votes. mr. schaffer was not involved, and had no such knowledge of any such plans. mr. schaffer was not involved. but you know who was? team trump. joining us now is again keith

fleming. she's a former district attorney for dekalb county in georgia. when, it's great to see you in person on this night of nights. >> thank you, glad to be here. >> how does this letter ring to you? is it possible? >> i think it's one thing that the defense attorneys want to be able to get their story out early. obviously, we've seen, or at least heard from some of the grand jury's about what some of the testimony was, and so, i think the defense team really wants to make sure they have an opportunity to get their story out, even though there are no indictments yet. so, that is a little bit of an odd thing -- >> or an indicator maybe? >> possibly. i mean, obviously, the ableist has indicated that she is willing to make announcement somewhere between july and september. and i think that will be the real game-changer. but in terms of this particular letter, there are some key differences here that i think fani or members of her team will raise, as to the case that they are relying on for this legal theory, a really, it

really causes some concerns, i think. >> and in the sort of course of making their argument, to the public, just in case there is an indictment, there is i -- think the turn that's throwing people under the bus, like, there is literally, if anything bad happened with these fake electoral votes, involving mike pence, and trying to play fuzzy math with the 2020 election, that is rudy giuliani and john eastman's fault. i mean, does that ring -- i mean, how damaging is that to team trump? the fact that someone who was part of this block is saying, look this way. >> i think it creates an interesting dynamic, right? and sometimes, it will let you know how desperate or how things are starting to shape out on the other side. but, again, the prosecutors always gonna have to prove intent. so, one of the reasons that it could've been put out there this way is to demonstrate at least schaffer did not believe he had the intent to violate the law. but, again, i think there are some key differences here. the case and hawaii that the

whole legal theory is based on, there was an active court order recount going on, which is what created the uncertainty. we did not have that in georgia. the election was certified seven days before the electors gathered. the other thing is that it was only a difference of less than 200 votes. here in 2020, we're talking about almost 11,000 -- >> 11,780. >> exactly. >> just for people who aren't following along, there are some leaks and all of this. the idea that these republican electors had to had these -- they had to make these contingent electors decision is because they were saying, in case this goes trump's way, we need to basically have our ducks in a row, because in hawaii, in 1960, a similar situation played out. they did not. and look what happened. >> right. >> but you're saying that there's a huge difference -- >> huge differences between what happened in hawaii in 1960 and what went down in georgia in 2020. >> exactly. and two of the other key

differences is that in the hawaii situation, the governor signed off on the contingent electors, if that's what you want to call them. >> we call them fake electors here. >> that did not happen in 2020. the other thing in hawaii, the ceremony was public -- >> yes. >> and in 2020, there was at least testimony and evidence that they were trying to keep it hidden -- >> i think complete secrecy wasn't one of the emails. >> yes, exactly -- >> david schaffer does not have immunity. and there are eight fake electors, maybe nine, that have immunity. how meaningful are these immunity deals at this moment in time? >> i think they are critical because, again, those are the folks that were in the room. they're part of the backdoor conversations. they know who actually approached them and convince them, as to what the strategy would be, the intent of the strategy, how they were gonna go forward. so, that really gives the dea and her team that behind the scenes look at what people were thinking, and what they were trying to achieve. again, all of this was sent to the national archives to be able to create uncertainty about the certification on

january 6th. >> fani willis is the prosecutor here, a woman very much in the spotlight. governor brian kemp of georgia has signed a bill last week, making it official, a law, that creates a commission with powers to investigate sanction or remove local prosecutors. do you think she is worried about being able to see this case through? >> i don't think so. she's been a true professional for decades, certainly as long as i've known her. and i think she is continually -- she is being stepwise and elaborate about how she's building her case. she is not being crushed by all of the calls to try and bring an indictment or force her on a different timeline. and i think her team is really trying to put things together, which is why we're starting to hear about immunity deals, which is why the grand jury took so much time to listen to 75 witnesses. and so, again, she is doing whatever good prosecutor should, in terms of making sure she has her evidence and her law, and her theories together, before presenting it to a grand jury. >> and then wait and see what happens.

>> that may be why some people like schaffer are getting a bit nervous and trying to preemptively establish their own narrative of what went on. the great gwen keys fleming, thank you so much for your time and wisdom this evening. >> next for having me. >> still to come tonight, with the presumed republican presidential front-runner facing a litany of challenges like -- i don't know, criminal indictments, a multi million dollar civil judgment, and multiple investigations, is there such a thing as traditional campaign politics? how democrats will have to navigate these unprecedented times? with jen psaki, that is next. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ take your lawn back with scotts turf builder triple action! gets three jobs done at once - kills weeds. prevents crabgrass. and keeps it growing strong. get a bag of scotts triple action today, it's guaranteed. feed your lawn. feed it. realtor.com (in a whisper) if we use kevin's college fund, we can afford this house. the house whisperer! this house says use realtor.com to find options within your budget. good luck young man. realtor.com

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it's your verizon. >> the white house pool, the press pool, traveling back from new york city to washington, d.c. this evening with president joe biden, reported that as they border air force one tonight, as former president trump was participating in a cnn town hall in new hampshire, televisions and the press cabin were said to msnbc and not cnn. joining me now is my esteemed colleague jen psaki, host of inside with jen psaki. jen, thank you for being here, my friend. it seems not -- i mean, god bless everybody who watches msnbc -- what's that? >> such a fun detail. >> but i think it's an important detail, too, right? not just that god bless everybody was an msnbc viewer, but at the white house does not want to deal with the headache that was, or perhaps further expose people to nightmare that

was president trump spouting lies largely uncensored for 75 minutes. is that, i mean, is that part of a campaign strategy? there are no accidental decisions in something like that. what do you think that represents? >> that's true. and now i want to know more about that. but i would say, alex, from the officials that still top there, and i do stay in touch with a number of my former colleagues, they do not underestimate trump. when there was a whole theory of, oh, trump would be the easiest to run against, oh, biden would clean his clock, that was not something i ever heard from a former colleague over there. they ran against him before, and he almost beat biden. so, they're not the ones, in my experience, or from my engagements with them, we need a kind of a wake up call. i will say that given tonight was one of trump's biggest returns to the national stage in a while, it should be a pretty big wake up call for democrats. i mean, he lied about a lot of things. he said some crazy things, like the country could default.

he couldn't answer whether he would sign an abortion ban. maybe he's on the side of russia. he said lots of crazy things about january six. all of that is true. but he also had commands and that town hall meeting, and he has the evil charisma that people can hate but, it is happening. and hopefully, it was a wake up call for people out there about the reality that this guy is currently on the path to be the nominee, and to maybe, likely, give the president a run for his money. >> yeah, i think you're absolutely right about the evil charisma. he was owning the room, and perhaps more disturbingly, the room was eating it up. >> well, that was the most disturbing -- i mean, there was a lot of disturbing, but the laughing, when there were insane things, offensive things, things about e. jean carroll being said, the laughing and the room, that was disturbing. >> you know, and the fact of the matter is, as we talk about the evil charisma, trump's opening of the room, the

audience lapping it up, this would be some criminal indictment against the ex president. and it's devastating for anybody was concerned about the state of our democracy, it could also we are at least strengthen trump. and i wonder from amongst his people, from a biden standpoint, what is your sense of how the white house talks about potential criminal indictments? how much they lead into that? >> well, there is the tradition, alex, of not wait on criminal indictments. and they're not, they'll try to abide by that. it becomes harder and less strategically to their advantage, if there is an indictment on january six, on the georgia case you are just talking about. these are fundamental values, defensive democracy. they're gonna have to find a way to talk about it. they don't have to comment on the case, but it is about values. what you're trying to defend and the contracts between the two candidates. so, yes, i think it's just a little bit of their other indictments on these other issues. >> do you think president biden is ready to go ahead because it feels like he's gonna need to do that? >> i mean, i'm gonna rephrase

for those of you are not following along at home. but is he ready to throw punches because it feels like trump is in the ring? >> i think so. he did it in 2020. i think he has to be. the other thing, though, to remember here it's probably gonna be won or lost on fact-checking. it's probably going to be on fighting about the issues, abortion access, democracy, the economy, that helped him win the first time. so, i think is gonna be very specific about where he throws his punches. >> well, we'll see -- we'll see what stations and the televisions are tuned to tomorrow. >> stay tuned. >> hopefully, msnbc on sunday at noon, for your program, jen psaki, my friend and colleague, thank you for your time tonight. >> thank, you alex. >> that is our show for this evening. we will see you tomorrow. now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, alex. and we have a hakeem jeffries leading off with us tonight, as