the primary voters. right now, in the wake of these mass shootings, it's hard to see how that helps him next year in the general election. polling suggestions americans are very much opposed to what he is saying on that issue. national political reporter for "politico," natalie allison, thank you so much for your analysis this morning. we appreciate it. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. it was a largest crowd i'd ever spoken to. that was prior to the walk down to the capitol building. i don't think, and i've spoken to hundreds of thousands of people, i've never spoken to a crowd as large as this, and that was because they thought the election was rigged. and they were there crowd. >> hang mike pence! hang mike pence! hang mike pence! >> they were there with love in their heart. >> get back! >> that was an unbelievable and a beautiful day.

>> nancy, nancy! >> donald trump last night in his cnn town hall, calling january 6th a beautiful day. the event, of course, last night full of lies, misleading statements. we'll go through the biggest ones, and also his comments about writer e. jean carroll that drew laughs and cheers from the crowd. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, may 11th. we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief jonathan lemire. jen palmieri. jon meacham. and reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany. we watched a rerun from 2016 and what we saw throughout donald trump's presidency. he committed again last night the claim that the election was rigged in 2020. it was not, of course. he called january 6th a beautiful day. he said he was going to pardon the people who attacked police officers on that day. the list goes on and on and on.

would not commit to supporting ukraine in its war with russia. we'll get into some of it but, frankly, no surprises in what we saw or what he said last night. >> no surprises. yet, it was just -- it was a disgraceful performance. >> yes. >> i'm constantly telling people not to catastrophize over trump, that he is actually going to lose because he keeps drilling down deeper and deeper into his base. but it is -- it is -- i can't believe i'm going to use catastrophizing language here, but it was just disgraceful on every level. it showed -- i wouldn't say it's dangerous for democracy because we passed that a long time ago, but it showed the corrosive effects of trumpism over eight

years. i've got to say, the most shocking part was an audience who cheered on a president who tried to overturn american democracy, an audience that mocked and ridiculed the woman who a jury of her peers, donald trump's peers, found had been sexually assaulted. those americans there last night turned that into a punch line. laughed and dismissed cops getting the shit kicked out of them on january the 6th, beaten up over and over again. calling a cop a thug, who actually was trying to stop people from the house floor from being killed. i could go -- i just could go on

and on. basically saying he would turn over ukraine to vladimir putin. it just -- it was -- jon meacham, on every front, you could go piece by piece by piece to talk about how breathtakingly dangerous what we saw was last night, this virus of lies that's been loosened on the american people. but what we saw last night was -- it was a propagandist, and it was a propagandist spewing lies repeatedly over and over and over again, and an audience, an american audience laughing it up. this isn't putin's russia. this is trump's slice of america. what i saw last night at least was as chilling as anything i've seen on television since january the 6th.

>> yeah, we're looking at that his reality has become our reality, and he is -- he's largely invented the way he sees the world. it's dark. it's divisive. we're all the way back to, i alone can fix it, i alone can save the country from this abyss. and it doesn't take a huge amount of imagination to see what he thinks is the abyss. and i think we're always two weeks away from chaos, right? that's the nature of humankind, of history. this is not -- this should not be surprising to people. what it must be, however, is a

reminder that if you believe in american democracy, if you believe in a rule of law that protects you and your neighbor, not just because it's the right thing to do but because of your neighbor is protected, they're more likely to respect you, if you believe in that, then this is the choice. it's very clear. you and i can go on and, you know, we can talk about jefferson and madison and all of that, but it's very clear. if you believe in a country of decency and opportunity, you have a choice. if you believe in a country that -- which is animated by grievance, you have your choice. >> yeah, you do. i have to say, again, again, as

horrific as last night was, i'm just going to say the same thing i say every time he says something that veers off the cliff and is so contrary to american tradition, to the constitution, to constitutional norms, it'll end up hurting him in the end. willie, i do think, and i'm not going to sit here tonight and point fingers at anybody. it was a tough assignment. i will say, i hope reporters, journalists, will look at what happened last night and see that as basically a preseason film and study it to see what needs to be avoided moving forward. there is -- and we have said this before, said it before, you can't get past the first question until the first question is answered. which is, is joe biden

president? is joe biden president? you say the election was rigged. 63 federal judges, mr. president. 63 federal judges all said you were lying, all said there was no widespread election fraud. 63. your own supreme court, mr. president, said you were lying, that there was no widespread fraud. even alito and thomas wrote that there weren't enough votes. even if you took all of trump's arguments to change the outcome of pennsylvania, which was the case before them at the time, a state that he brought up last night. arizona, willie, we've talked about it, how many recounts did republican officials in arizona, republican officials in arizona make? they even sent out the cyber punks who were going to rig the

election for trump, and the cyber punks actually added to biden's totals. georgia, forgive me for being exhaustive, this is what everybody has to do. georgia, republican election officials repeatedly, repeatedly said that donald trump lost, the trumpy governor of georgia said it, the trumpy secretary of state in georgia said it. it was so bad, he recorded a phone call while trump was telling him to throw out just enough votes for him to win. you don't ever get past that to talk about regulations or energy policy. you can't in 2024, as this election heats up. you just don't get there. if you do ever get past that, then you have to stay on january 6th until that's exhausted. >> yup.

>> and it didn't happen last night. but, again, that serves as a notice to the rest of us moing forward, about what we need to do in 2024. because we're on notice. we've had eight years of notice, and we cannot let him just spew lies nonstop in any interview or any town hall meeting. >> and the moderator, kaitlan collins, did have some of that information and did push back on it. the problem was, in that format, it was a rally. it wasn't a town hall. it was full of trump supporters. they laughed at every insult he threw out, supported every lie he told, and he fed on that. he turned to the audience as an ally against her. within the first few minutes of the cnn town hall last night, trump already was pushing the lie about the 2020 election. >> why should americans put you back in the white house? >> because we did fantastically. we got 12 million more votes

than we had in, as you know, in 2016. i actually say we did far better in that election. it was a rigged election, and it is a shame that we had to go through it. it is very bad for our country. all over the world, they looked at it. >> it was not a rigged election, not a stolen election. you lost more than 60 court cases on the election. it's been nearly 2 1/2 years. can you publicly acknowledge you did lose the 2020 election? >> let me just go on. if you look at true the vote, they found millions of votes on government cameras where they were stuffing ballot boxes. >> republican officials debunked the claims about fraudulent ballots. >> who? >> georgia and every single state. your own election officials, mr. president. so we wanted to give you a chance -- >> they're afraid to take on the issue. we have a big problem in this country. >> we wanted to give you a chance to acknowledge the results. >> the elections were horrible. >> a question to you is, will you pardon the january 6th

rioters who were convicted of federal offenses? >> i am inclined to pardon many of them. i can't say for every single one, because a couple of them, they probably got out of control. what they've done to these people, they've persecuted these people. yeah, my answer is, i am most likely, if i get in, i will most likely -- i would say it would be a large portion of them. >> again, john, trump said january 6th was a beautiful day, his words, and people were there with love in his hearts. then conceded, some of them got out of control. but then said, "i'm going to let people out of jail who beat up cops," and we saw it with our own eyes. >> it was lie after lie after lie. donald trump has not changed. this is who he was in 2016. this is who he was in 2020. nothing has changed. he lied and ran rough shod last night. you talked about it, willie, the deep flaw of the event last night was the crowd. it was republican voters, trump

supporters, people who worked on trump's previous campaign were audience members last night. we know that emails were sent out to trump republican clubs to say, "hey, come cheer on the former president of the united states at this town hall." they did act like a rally. it was -- when he called the moderator nasty, the crowd laughed and cheered. he called e. jean carroll a whackjob, and the crowd cheered. that gave him allies in the audience. it again shows how he has just reshaped the republican party in his image. the complete dominance of the party. he was given this opportunity last night to talk to them and show again that he is in charge. the counter, though, and joe started to mention it earlier, i heard from senior biden people who said it was an hour long campaign ad for us. the president's response afterward was a tweet saying, look, "if you want four more years, to avoid that, vote for

me. you don't want to go back to that." it is, again, this sort of dichotomy. everything trump is doing seems to further his hold on republicans but probably hurts him in the general election. but, of course, if you're in the final two, you've inherently got a shot. >> of course he has a shot. we've been saying that from the beginning. joe, you talk about politics being a game of addition, not subtraction. if you watched the 70 minutes last night, was there a single voter who said, "you know what, i was thinking about voting for joe biden, or i'm an independent not in love with joe biden, but i like what i saw last night, i'll go vote for donald trump"? >> that's something we've been talking about for years, something i've never understand. -- understood. if donald trump dropped this garbage and talked about can economy, 2018, 2019, going into 2020, had done his best to handle covid, he would have been re-elected. you look at the map, the numbers, he could have been re-elected. but he kept, again, boiling his support down.

it continues to happen. jonathan just brings up a great point. you have a guy, first of all, still lying about the election being rigged. that's a minority view in america by a large swath of people. in fact, that abc poll that was supposed to be horrible for joe biden, a majority of americans said trump should be arrested, should be arrested for what he tried to do in rigging the 2020 election. that's how much of a minority thing it is. praising convicts, praising rioters who beat the hell out of cops and defecated in the peoples' house, the united states house of representatives. he's embracing these people? yes, it's horrifying. it's horrifying, but it hurts him politically. you -- again, we can go down the list. mocking and ridiculing a woman

who was sexually abused by donald trump, sexually abused by donald trump according to a jury of his peers. that woman mocked and ridiculed. and this republican audience of republican club members and people, these trump loyalists, they're mocking and ridiculing a woman that a jury just found had been sexually abused. sexually abused. that doesn't help donald trump. it crushes him in the atlanta suburbs. that crushes him in the philly suburbs. it crushes him in wisconsin. it crushes him in the detroit suburbs. all the places he needs to gain. last night, the trump campaign loved what they saw because they're stupid. they really are. they're just colossally stupid if they think that was good for them in a general election.

and the biden white house, thrilled that he once again showed his colors. there's breaking news that just broke across "financial times," news breaking, he said, he will do whatever it takes. he will provide whatever money is needed from his fortune to make sure donald trump is not elected president of the united states. do you know how many people are waking up this morning saying that? do you know how many people are waking up this morning saying, "you know what, i need to get involved in 2024 and stop this fascist, stop this liar, stop this guy who elevates vladimir putin and trashes america, and calls it the greatest threat to western civilization"? there is, this morning, a lightning bolt going through the american electorate. it's reminding everybody the

stakes of a second donald trump presidency. so last night, bad for democracy, bad for media, but even worse, jackie, for donald trump. you know about january 6th. you know the numbers. you know the majority of americans don't buy what donald trump was trying to sell last night or on january the 6th. but also, e. jean carroll being mocked and ridiculed, a woman sexually abused being mocked and ridiculed by that audience, a really horrific, horrific thing. and politically, a horrific look for donald trump and his republican party. >> yeah, joe, i mean, i covered the rise of trumpism in new hampshire. i was living there in 2015 and 2016. last night was really, it felt

like a regurgitation of those two years, especially for new hampshire voters andporting vote loving what trump was serving up to them. you have to give kaitlan collins some credit for trying to hold trump's feet to the fire, but trump is a spigot of misinformation. you know, doing so and fact-checking every single thing he said is a real challenge. but, i mean, it should be noted that the supreme court was the most conservative it's been in 90 years, in part thanks to trump. they rejected the trump campaign's appeals to challenge biden's -- to challenge trump -- trump's challenges to biden's election victory. i think what's also been lost really in this conversation, there's been some criticisms from the right of the kinds of

questions that were being asked to trump. but these very basic questions about sexual assault, about believing in free and fair elections, about publicly acknowledging that you fairly lost the 2020 election are pivotal and important to long-term democratic norms, without, you know, confidence in free and fair elections. that long term democratic development is threatened and imperilled and has global implications. so, you know, it's definitely a snapshot of what we're going to see going forward, of what base voters want to see from the republican nominee. and a pretty good, i think, case study for democratic candidates, for joe biden going forward in the next two years leading up to november 2024. >> yeah, tough,fair questions,

will you respect the outcome of the 2024 election? he wouldn't do that either. jen palmieri, forgive me for triggering your ptsd, but you all ran against donald trump in 2016. what did you see last night? if you were running for the biden campaign, would you be heartened, not for the country certainly, but for the chances of being re-elected. >> if you're the biden campaign, it showed what's at stake. but it's also scary, what is at stake for democracy? it did sort of show for me the cumulative impact of trumpism over the last eight years that he's really been part of our politics. remember, like, the new hampshire cowan hall, it's not just a thing with presidential politics. it's a stoied place in american democracy, the idea you have civil town halls where people who are undecided, right, not sure who they're going to support, come together to have a respectful conversation where

they ask questions of candidates. you know, this is something that i'd say 2004 was probably the height of that, with the cnn, msnbc, other people doing town halls like that with presidential candidates. they wanted to bring the new hampshire experience, the civil, good politics new hampshire experience to television. trump just made a mockery of that, right? the crowd, it was like kaitlan collins was having to serve as a truth translator at a trump rally. for the biden campaign, what does it go back to? we saw it on stage, finish the job, right? he talked about when he announced his re-election a couple weeks ago, finish the job with policy initiatives, guns, paid leave, child care, climate, but, you know, he ran to defeat trump. trumpism is still here. when he talks about finish the job now, we're going to, you know, have that, the images we saw last night in our heads.

>> as john pointed out, president biden on twitter saying, quote, do you want four more years of that, after watching the town hall. donald trump also defended his comments from the "access hollywood" tape, where he said celebrities could do anything they want against women. it was used in his case with e. jean carroll. >> i said "women let you," not the that you do. they said, "will you take that back?" i said, "for a million years, i want to be honest, this is the way it's been. i can take it back if you'd like to. but if you're a famous person, a star, and i'm not referring to myself" --

>> you were asked -- >> people who are powerful, they tend to do pretty well in a lot of different ways, okay? you'd like me to take it back? i will not. it's been true for approximately a million years, perhaps a little longer than that. >> so you stand by those comments? >> i don't want to lie. >> mr. president -- >> here's -- >> let's get to the audience questions tonight. >> there is no advantage over anyone else. well, you do have an advantage. i say unfortunately, but that's the way it is. >> you said fortunately or unfortunatelily. mr. president, we have a lot of audience -- >> for her. >> wow. if you're keeping score at home, and i understand it may be hard because of the lies that were spewed last night, donald trump just said if you're a star like him, which he did say in the deposition that, of course, he was a star, and if you're wealthy and powerful, you will do better in a number of ways. his definition of doing better

in a number of ways, going back to the "access hollywood" tape, is reaching out and sexually abusing women. his words. his words. it's just straight forward. here we have, again, a night that was bad for democracy, a night that was bad for the media, a night that was bad for cnn, a night that was bad for, well, donald trump's campaign. again, the winner last night from just that absolute monstrosity of a town hall meeting, with an audience shipped in from -- i mean, i thought we were supposed to have swing voters there -- an audience shipped in from republican clubs from across the state of new hampshire, the only winner was joe biden. that's why jeffrey katzemburg

has said, "i'll give whatever money i have to to stop donald trump." last night was n a sense, a political earthquake. i said it was aghtning bolt. it was an earthquake. people are once again waking up with the consequence of donald trump in the white house. a guy who has breached one political norm after another, one constitutional norm after another. and, you know, you look at this, and jackie alemany, let me go back to you, you have the most important part. going back to trump, what willie brought up, that trump is just hurting himself here by pushing away the very people he needs on board. he is now in a republican party. he is running a republican party, and he is sending a message to women across america,

that if you're successful -- i want to get his words right -- they do well in a number of ways. one of those ways, he said, referring back to the "access hollywood" tape, was the ability to just walk up and sexually abuse women. you have donald trump in a republican party that require 10-year-old girls who are raped to be chased out of their states. you have donald trump and a republican party that still is lying about january 6th, still lying about a rigged election. and it's only going to hurt donald trump. it's only going to -- again, in all of those suburbs, why all of that madness happened last night, at the end of the day, it's only going to hurt trump. but this is where we are. it doesn't make it any less

damaging to democracy, that that was allowed to go on tv last night. >> this is certainly not attracting any independent, swingy, college-educated women voters to the republican party, for those who either watched in realtime last night or reading the headlines this morning. and this goes exactly to what you and i discussed last week, joe, and what is going to be a major, central topic going into 2024. something that was covered extensively in the draft gop autopsy report that my colleagues reported on, which said that republicans not only need to learn to talk about issues like abortion in a more moderate and centrist way by support things like exceptions when it comes to abortion bans, but also in terms of tone. that tone that you saw last night is the exact opposite of what people like ronna mcdaniel

have been advising gop candidates. they've been recommending to candidates to address the sensitive topics head on, to be compassionate. take a page from joe biden's notebook and have a tone that is more inclusive and brings women into the fold, or at least makes them feel like the republican party can be an ally to women. >> yeah. of course, speaking of women, i didn't even talk about mothers who are now afraid to send their children to school because of what happens all too often and because of donald trump's republican party unwilling to do anything to protect our children in schools, in churches, synagogues, at country music festivals and shopping malls and grocery stores, you name it. willie, i just have to ask, i just have to ask, what the hell?

what the hell was it with that audience? what the hell? what were they thinking putting that audience in there? it was -- those weren't undecided voters. it was a pep rally for donald trump where they mocked and ridiculed the cnn anchor. where they mocked and ridiculed a woman who was sexually abused by the man on stag they were applauding. what was with that audience? how did -- how was that audience selected? >> i don't know how they did, but you're right, it was advertised as republicans and undecided voters in new hampshire, which as jen said a minute ago, there is a tradition of town halls. i've done some of them with hillary clinton and with candidate on both sides of the aisle. you get good question from smart, engaged voters that

challenge the candidate up there. last night, there was no challenge. kaitlan collins was alone on stage, on her own network's town hall meeting. jon meacham, as you watched that, you do wonder, let's say ron desantis does get in the race a couple weeks from now. does he really have a shot against that, though, when that passionate trump wing, the loudest and most vocal and strongest part of that base, is so enthralled with trump and cheers all the things we've been laying out here for the last 30 minutes, all of the abhorrent statements, all of the lies, all of the insults? it appear to be what that part of the republican party, which is most of it if you look at the polling right now, wants, and donald trump will, in fact, be the nominee. >> you know, i'm always wrong about this, but if you have the original, why would you watch a spin-off? you know, you can play the

metaphor out. if you have real coke, why would you want coke zero? so i don't see -- there is an elemental connection between trump and that base. it is remarkable. it is deep. it's real. and it could be controlling, right? it could be disdispositive. when we talk about the independent voters, who one hopes would engage with this phenomena, see this, and go running. remember, the "access hollywood" vernacular was adjudicated twice in '16 and in '20. almost everything we saw last night is for anyone paying the slightest bit of attention, already a part of the trump phenomena. and 71 or whatever million

people in 2020, after the covid reaction -- and let's remember, a million people died from that virus -- 71 million people said, "yeah, let's try this again." so i passionately believe that the argument has to be made for a constitutional order where there is give and take. that said, i'm not entirely sure that the right number of voters in the right states agree with that. and so i understand, and as we talk about, the president is my friend. i help him when i can. i'm not entirely sure, i'm not entirely sold that president biden is the big winner out of something like last night. i hope so.

but, you know, we're talking about an elemental force here. what's so remarkable about america is that it took us this long to face this challenge at this level. what it's going to require is all of us, at each point in this unfolding story, to remind ourselves that it's more important to defeat this force and this person in donald trump than almost anything else. and if we don't remind ourselves of that, then chaos awaits, more chaos. >> what donald trump promised last night when that town hall was at a second trump term would be just like the first one and maybe even a little bit worse. jon meacham, jackie alemany, thank you both. we appreciate it always. ahead, more from last

night's town hall, including what the former president had to say about the war in ukraine and whether he'd support a federal abortion ban. plus, embattled republican congressman george santospleads not guilty to federal charges. what house speaker kevin mccarthy is saying about that. also, the ongoing debt ceiling fight raising fears about a possible default. donald trump had something to say about that, as well, last night. steve rattner joins us to explain what it all could mean for the u.s. economy. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh?

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country." they can't use the debt ceiling to negotiate. >> you once said using the -- that using the debt ceiling as a negotiating wedge just could not happen. you said that when you were in office. >> that's when i was president. >> why is it different now that you're out of office? >> because now i'm not president. >> the u.s. defaulting would be consequential for everyone in the room. >> you don't know. it's psychological. it's psychological more than anybody else, and it could be very bad, it could be maybe nothing. maybe you have a bad week or a bad day. look, you have to cut your costs. we're spending $7 trillion on -- much of it on nonsense. $7 trillion on nonsense. >> we have another question from a voter tonight. >> all of that money that was wasted, and, frankly, the senate should have never approved it, get the money that's wasted, and if they don't get rid of it, you have to default. >> donald trump at the town hall. the first bite you heard was from 2019, where he said raising

the debt limit was a sacred element of the country. now says, eh, maybe we detault. default. former treasury official and "morning joe" analyst, steve rattler at the southwest wall with his world-famous charts. good to see you. before the charts, just your reaction to what donald trump said, that maybe it wouldn't be so bad if we defaulted a little bit. >> i'll show what happened when we almost defaulted, 2011, the worst debt crisis before the current one. i'll explain the numbers in acr was revolved, what happened? the u.s. lost the aaa credit rating from standard and poor, yet to get it back. we are 1 trillion jobs fewer than we would have had if we hadn't have the problem. the stock market dropped 17% in the course of this. it's hard to say this is a big circus or joke or an illusion. >> so you have unprecedented

market fears of a default happening right now. the markets don't seem to be confident that the white house and kevin mccarthy and the congress can work this out. >> right. so as i said, this was the worst -- this is a measure of insurance on the u.s. debt. you can actually buy insurance against a default, just like your car, house. i won't explain what all the numbers mean, but, obviously, higher is bad. 2011, as i said, was our worst previous case. the index got to about 85. a smaller one in 2013. look where we are here now. we are almost at 200. we are just under 180 at the moment. you can look at this as a fear index if you want, of what people believe in the markets could possibly happen in this crisis. everyone i talked to, everyone who was involved in the past crises say this is the worst one, the scariest yet. >> as we move to your second chart, let's talk about what republicans are hoping to extract from this negotiation over the debt ceiling.

major cuts to discretionary spending. >> sure. let's just set a baseline for all our viewers to explain discretionary spending quickly. here's our budget, $6.3 trillion. most of it is made up of things congress doesn't appropriate on a yearly basis, social security, medicare, medicaid, those things are locked in. defense which people consider to be locked in. what we're fighting about, what republicans are aiming at, is this 11% slice of the budget. where that becomes important is because when you start cutting the amount they want to cut, you're only cutting from this, which means in order to achieve their number, they want to cut 47% of that. that includes all these things, nasa, energy, labor, justice, state, all would have budgets cut by 47%. that's after inflation. the actual cuts would be bigger.

just to put that in perspective with the president's proposal, the president has a relatively modest increase of 4% in his spending. he has some offsetting deficit reduction measures, which we'll talk about in a second. >> 47% proposed cuts to discretionary spending from republicans. as you move to the third chart, it represents a philosophical difference. where joe biden wants to find the money by raising taxes, and republicans want to do that by cutting spending. >> exactly, willie. first, you have the republican cuts that we talked about. essentially, $4.8 trillion of which virtually are $4.5 trillion by cutting taxes. ironically, most of the revenue raisers they want is by taking away the irs funding, which costs the government money, because we make money on the irs because of the audits and recovering money from taxpayers. so president biden, as i said, wants to increase spending modestly by $2.6 billion over

ten years. trillion dollars, excuse me, it should be a "t." but he wants to raise money on mostly business and wealthy americans by $5.3 trillion over the same period. his deficit reduction is smaller than the republicans. if you look at the last chart here, what you'll see is that the republican savings are in the early years. biden catches up. by the end, biden actually reduces the deficit by slightly more than trump when you get out here. look, we shouldn't kid ourselves, we do have a deficit problem. the problem is the growing deficit without doing something. both of them are trying to do something. but as you eluded to, the something is very different. >> steve, of course, if you cut 50% of 11% of the budget, those cuts would be absolutely catastrophic. what that would, do of course, would make getting on a plane far more dangerous.

getting in a car with your family, going on vacations, far more dangerous. all the transportation safety, getting on a train, far more dangerous. it would make the food that you feed your children at night far less safe. i mean, you can go down the list even, it's just -- those numbers are not possible. as far as the irs goes, it would make the irs even less responsive to taxpayers who are being audited or need a refund. the irs is already operating on 1980s technology right now. i bring that up. i want you to, if you could, do a couple things for me. first of all, add, tell americans how else their lives would be made more difficult, more dangerous if you slashed 50% of that 11% of the budget, which is all the things that we

think of as government, outside of the social security, medicare, medicaid, defense. secondly, you and i both agree, and we have agreed since the obama administration, and i have since 1995 when i first got to washington, that we've got a deficit problem. we've got a debt problem. if you and i were to sit down and tried to hammer out a deal here, how do you -- how do you raise the debt ceiling and also look at the debt in the long term and try to slow down the massive increase in debt? let me just say, let me throw the first item on the table. let's completely get rid of every trump tax cut from 2017. let's go from there. >> sure. joe, you eluded to the ways in which everyday americans would be affected by this.

imagine the agricultural department which inspects your food and makes sure it is healthy to eat. the food and drug administration which approves your drugs and makes sure they're safe to take. imagine the fact that our transportation system that does so much to also keep us safe, would be affected. then you have things that you may feel are less critical, but imagine, you know, all our national parks closed because the interior department doesn't have enough money to fund them. or energy department, which is working so hard now on our transition to clean energy, imagine how they would operate with so much less money. you can just go on and on and on. labor enforcing workplace safety standards for workers out there every day. the justice department prosecuting lots of criminals and wrongdoers every day that would have half its budget eliminated. it's impossible to imagine the epa making sure our environment, drinking water, things like that are safe, almost impossible to imagine how we operate with a

government that's literally cut in half, any more than any other business can operate if, suddenly, half its workforce disappears. >> yeah. steve, one more quick question for ya. this is beyond the charts. yesterday, of course, inflation slowed down. i think it's the tenth straight month inflation slowed down. it was down to 4.9% at an annual rate. do you think the fed has gotten on top of this? do you think we're going to keep moving in that direction? is inflation going to continue to be tamed? >> i do think inflation is going to be tamed, joe. the fed did indicate it was probably going to pause to see the effect of these large increases on the economy so far. unfortunately, we have a target of 2%, rightly or wrongly. powell, chairman of the federal reserve, is insistent on it, which means we have a long wray to go from 5% to 2%. it is definitely going in the

right direction. each month's numbers in general have been slightly better than the one before. but we still have a long way to go. >> steve rattner with his charts, thank you, as always. jonathan, tomorrow, the second meeting in a matter of a few days between the president and leadership in the congress. got nowhere out of the first one on tuesday. any hope for something tomorrow? >> there has been a little be it of hope from the developments from the staff meeting. the principals, the president and congressional leaders met tuesday, portrayed as a contentious meeting. very little got done. staff met yesterday and are again today. there was thought yesterday some progress made, early steps, but some good dialogue, at least to agree to what to talk about, which is an important first step, of course. but all eyes are trained to the white house again tomorrow. particularly, the biden-mccarthy relationship, which is not in a good place right now. it was the source of a lot of friction on tuesday. the president yesterday traveled to upstate new york, suburban new york, to a district that was

won by a republican last time around but biden himself captured in 2020. trying to put some pressure on the 18 districts, thinking of the moderate republicans, might be able to pick off votes. the white house considering a trip to another swing district in the days ahead. the president sounded optimistic notes, thinking which would get done. aides i spoke to said, "look, we're further along. the deadline is approaching. of course, there's anxiety." they still think the politics are on their side, and they're hopeful they can get something done before the cliff approaches in a couple weeks. >> clock is ticking on that. coming up next, donald trump's comment at the town hall last night where he suggests he would bring back his policy to separate migrant children from their parents if he is elected again. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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the pandemic-era immigration

polity known as title 42 expires at 11:59 p.m. eastern tonight. migrant crosses have picked up ahead of the deadline, with 11,000 caught crossing into the united states on tuesday alone. joining us now from el paso, texas, nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley. julia, good morning. again, what does it look like today now with hours to go before that deadline? >> reporter: well, willie, you're right, the numbers are rising, and they are going to get higher. right now, you wouldn't know it from where i'm standing. i'm here outside sacred heart church in downtown el paso, where we've usually seen hundreds of migrants camping out. there were more here yesterday when i was speaking to you. now, a lot of this sidewalk has been cleared. we understand that overnight, immigration authorities came through here and moved a lot of these migrants out. they had made sure they were processed at facilities. a lot of them had come through and hadn't been processed or accounted for. what happens after that is they

start releasing them. some of the migrants may be coming back today. that's something that happened yesterday. a lot of the shelters were cleared out, then the same people were coming back after they'd been processed. it's part of a strategy to clear more space, get more people through the system, before that expected surge. because at 10:59 tonight, title 42 will lift, meaning anyone who crosses the border can claim say asylum. if they passed through a country where they could have claimed asylum, like mexico, and they didn't, they'd be deemed ineligible. they'd be rapidly expedited for removal. but the processing will take longer. that's what has border patrol concerned. i talked to ortiz yesterday. he said if numbers get to 13,000, they may not have the capacity to move migrants around and ease up the tension. we reported on a plan to remove

migrants if they're over capacity. they already are now. but they'd release migrants without court dates or alternatives to detention, a way of tracking migrants as they move around the country. on the other hand, they're also doing some measures to try to stop the numbers from getting too high. they've sent troops down to the border. they're putting families now on a detention program, g geo locating program, showing where the head of the family is. putting families on a curfew, something we haven't heard before. they're adding the troops. they're working on an app for people to apply for appointments to come and build processing centers in other countries so people can apply where they live, rather than making the dangerous journey to the border. it's part of a comprehensive strategy to make it easier to apply for legal pathways where the migrants are from and keeping them from ending up on the streets of el paso and other border towns. >> julia ainsley, thank you so much for your reporting.

greatly appreciate it. former deputy cabinet secretary for the biden administration, cristobal alex, msnbc political analyst. thank you so much for being with us. >> good morning. >> it's just seemed for quite some time that this white house hasn't gotten just how chaotic things have been at the southern border over the past several years. the humanitarian crisis at the southern border over the past several years. now, we're talking about 11,000 migrants crossing the border on a single day. you know, that's a danger, even with the united states being big enough, over time, to absorb the migrants? if you talk to business owners, they'll say, "bring us migrants, legal immigrants. we need more." that said, there's a possibility

that tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of more migrants are going to make this dangerous journey in the coming months and years. how do we stop it? how do we raise legal immigration, cut the chaos at is southern border off, and make this entire process more humanitarian? >> yup. well, that's exactly the right question. ultimately, only congress can do that. we just saw images from my hometown of el paso, which has really, for a long time, been the center of the immigrant debate. the modern day ellis island. we think about the united states. it is a country of immigrants. it's always been a country of immigrants. the statue of liberty's encryption, "give me your poor, huddled masses." that means something. those are our values there. but you're also right, we need to strike the correct balance here. my hometown, el paso, that you saw is understand a lot of pressure.

the border is under pressure. they need the support at this juncture. that said, it's about security and also humanity and empathy, understanding the images you saw there. these are families, many running for their very lives. if they're not running for their lives, they're running to improve their lives, like my family were running to improve when they settled in el paso. last night, i watched donald trump, and he said he'd bring back his family separation policy. this is the actual policy of ripping babies from the arms of their mothers, one of the darkest chapters in our history. we can never go back to that. what the biden administration is doing is exactly right. bringing order to this influx of migrants and proving due process in ways to come to the united states legally. again, he cannot do that on his own. congress really does have to act. >> let's listen to that moment from the town hall last night.

>> another immigration policy you had was the zero tolerance immigration policy that separated families at the border. if you are re-elected, are you ruling out instituting that? >> well, when you have that policy, people don't come. if the family hears that they're going to be separated, they love their family, they don't come. so i know it sounds harsh, but if you remember, remember they said i was building prisons for children? it turned out that it was obama that was building prisons for the children. >> would you reimplement that, is that what you're saying? >> we have to save our country. >> that's a yes? >> no. when you say ", if you come, we're going to break you up," they don't come. we can't afford to have any more. look at new york city. look what is happening. they're living in central park in new york city. the city is being swamped. los angeles is being swamped. iowa is being swamped. our country is being destroyed. >> jen palmieri, donald trump making no secrets about what his

second term would look like, a return to most of what we saw in the first. >> yeah. to evoke the separating children from their parents policy, you know, that's not a policy that has a -- that there is positive or proactive purpose behind, right? that is something that he knows is inflammatory, something where the cruelty is the point. cristobal, i did the show yesterday, and lemire asked me if i worked for -- if i was in the white house, you know, what else would i be doing to try to make the case to the american people about what exactly is happening here. it's complicated. i know the administration has their mantra of they're doing everything they can to deter. they're doing everything they can to enforce. they're doing everything they can in terms of diplomatic efforts. but explain why it is that the congress, you know, for the last -- since the '80s, which is the last time they passed comprehensive immigration

reform, you said ultimately this needs to be solved in congress, and why that isn't happening. >> we haven't seen true comprehensive reform or any reform really since reagan. folks have tried it over time. the country has gotten more and more polarized. quite frankly, republicans just don't want to solve the problem at this point. the administration, the white house, they're doing everything they can to address the situation at the border. what you're seeing right now is a lot of pent-up demand to come to the united states after a pandemic, after years of donald trump who had worked very aggressively to gut our agencies, to roll back our government. now, we're seeing a reaction to that. i do think the next few days, maybe the next few weeks, the images we're going to see are going to be difficult to watch. ultimately, the president will do everything he can. i worked with him on this issue on the campaign and later in the white house. i take him at his word. i trust him, there will be

increased legal pathways to citizenship and due process. however, he can only do so much as executive. congress ultimately has to do it. the only way that's going to work is if republicans get serious and come to the table to do it. >> all right. former white house deputy cabinet secretary cristobal alex, thank you so much for being with us. we really appreciate it. and, jen, most americans, and count me as one of them, don't understand why we can't figure out a way to bring order to the border. i just -- it seems that the biden administration was asleep for a couple of years on this issue, kept talking about how it wasn't as bad as we all thought it was. you have 11,000 migrants crossing on one day this week. it's only going to get worse. what's the disconnect? because i will tell you, as i've said on this show repeatedly, the obama/biden administration

brought illegal border crossings on the southern border to 50-year lows. you've been out there with "the circus." you've been out there campaigning. you understand, there are a lot of people who support immigration. like reagan, i think it's immigration that keeps this country young, vibrant, and a step ahead of everybody else in the world. but there has to be order. there has to be -- this chaos and humanitarian disorder has to end. >> you can't tell people the economy is doing better when they don't feel it is, and you can't say there's not a problem at the border when they see it so apparently. i think that there was, particularly in the early years of the administration, like in '21, it was a huge logistical problem, a huge resource problem. and, you know, ultimately, the

republicans are setting -- republicans in congress are setting the administration up to fail on immigration, and they're doing it by design. i had a moment in the obama white house in 2015 after president obama had -- we'd put forward in 2012 the daca program, right, deferred action for childhood arrivals. this is dreamers, making sure they can still stay in the united states. congress took administrative action, but congress wouldn't act, right? the supreme court was going to hear a case challenging that, but it couldn't because there were only eight supreme court justices because mitch mcconnell refused to put a ninth supreme court justice, you know, refused to have hearings, let alone a vote on merrick garland becoming the ninth supreme court justice. that's when i had the moment, thinking, this isn't just partisan gridlock. this is the republicans -- this is democracy in dysfunction. they want that, in particular, with immigration. so there's only so much that

biden can do without congress, and they won't act. >> well, they need to act. the president needs to act. there needs to be bipartisan action. they've done it on several other issues, even on guns. they need to do it on immigration for so many reasons. to end the humanitarian crisis and also do what businesses say they need, more workers, high-tech workers. i mean, they come over here, get the best education on the planet, and then instead of creating jobs in north carolina, we kick them out and they create those jobs in new deli. -- new delhi. it's insanity. we need to keep those gifted people here. we have to have more legal immigration here. we have to stop the humanitarian crisis at the border.

willo willie, we're past the top of the hour. the town hall last night, it was a disgrace what he said, the mocking of a woman who he -- a jury found him liable of sexually assaulting. the audience laughing at the woman who was sexually assaulted. donald trump actually saying that rich people, stars do well in a number of ways, and one of those ways, donald trump suggested, was they're able to go up to women and sexually abuse them. he continued to lie about the 2020 election, despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of americans don't believe it was rigged. he called the moderator a nasty person. he complimented putin once again, saying he was a smart guy, a guy who destroyed his country. and, you know, he also -- he's just so dumb, i believe, or he plays dumb. he actually said he had every

right to break the law, to steal documents from the white house and to lie to the fbi, lie to the justice department about returning those documents. you can go on and on and on. you can talk about the fact he wanted to pardon convicts who had rioted, who had defecated in the capitol, who had broken windows and beaten the hell out of cops. willie, just -- as we said last hour, it was a terrible night, terrible night for, well, democracy, for the media, for cnn, but i think, most importantly, a terrible night for trump. because the biden white house was celebraing last night because he showed the worst in him, if that's even possible. you have people like jeffrey

katzemburg saying, "i'll do everything i can do, i'll give all my money if required, to beat donald trump and get joe biden back into the white house, polls be damned." >> it was called a town hall, but it was a rally. it was a room of trump supporters who cheered along, laughed at the insults, clapped at the lies. he called, again, the 2020 election rigged out of the box, didn't concede he lost. called january 6th a beautiful day, saying his supporters were there with love in their hearts and he would, indeed, pardon a lot of the people in jail. the people who beat up cops, who tore through the capitol, he'd pardon some of them. he said, maybe we ought to default and let this debt ceiling rise so we get what we want out of it. about mar-a-lago, he said, quote, about the classified documents, sounds like a confession to me, quote, i took what i took.

that's what donald trump said. then invoked the presidential records act, which does not apply to that case. he also talked, though, about ukraine, whether or not he'd support the country if he was elected again. he was asked, who do you want to win the war, and couldn't answer the question. here was donald trump last night. >> the question here is, would you give ukraine weapons and funding if you were president? >> i would sit down -- let me put it a nicer way. if i'm president, i will have that war settled in one day, 24 hours. [ applause ] >> how would you settle that war in one day? >> i'd meet with putin and zelenskyy. they both have weaknesses and both have strengths. in 24 hours, the war will be settled, over. >> do you want ukraine to win this war? >> i don't think in terms of winning and losing. i think in terms of getting it settled so we stop killing all these people. [ applause ] >> do you want ukraine or russia

to win this war? >> i want everybody to stop dying. russians and ukraiukrainians, i them to stop dying. >> eugene daniels, correspondent for "the new york times." peter baker and staff writer. at the "the atlantic," tom nichols. what does the spectacle last night say about donald trump and where the campaign is headed? >> what it says about donald trump is that he is -- it is donald trump unplugged now. he is going to run at full strength. he knows what his base wants. it was a great night for him as a primary candidate. i can understand if others think testifies a bad night for him as a general candidate. but donald trump hasn't changed. he is going to manipulate the media, which he did.

he was in control of the whole event last night, which was shameful, and he is going to just, you know, fire hose his lies and propaganda at full strength, without any fear of contradiction or consequences. >> here's what -- >> so -- >> sorry, go ahead, willie. >> i was going to point out what we were talking about a minute ago, joe, about the classified documents at mar-a-lago. this is an ongoing investigation where donald trump is potentially in legal peril. here is what he said about why he took the documents, and he did say, "i took what i took," when he left the white house. >> when it comes to your documents, did you ever show the classified documents to anyone? >> not really. i would have the right to. by the way, they were declassified after -- >> what do you mean, not really? >> not that i can think of. let me tell you, i have the right to do whatever i want with them. i had the right. i was negotiating with nara. >> the national archives.

>> extremely left group of people. >> you don't -- >> extremely left. >> they're bipartisan. >> they invaded my house. they didn't raid the house of joe biden. they didn't raid obama. >> joe biden didn't ignore a subpoena to get the documents back like you did. so that's the question. >> 1850 boxes. >> investors' questions, why did you hold on to the boxes when you know the federal government were seeking them. >> are you ready, can i talk? do you mind? >> i would like for you to answer the question. >> it is simple. >> that's why i asked it. >> it is very simple. you are a nasty person, i'll tell ya. [ laughter ] >> do you have any classified documents in your possession? >> you ready? >> do you? >> no. i don't have anything. i have no classified documents. by the way, they've become automatically declassified when i took them. >> no, you have to declassify them. >> let me ask you a question. why is it biden had nine boxes in chinatown, and he gets a lot of money from china? why is that?

>> there is no evidence of that, mr. president. you cannot say that, there is no evidence of that, mr. president. >> why do they put this jack smith and the group of thugs -- >> this wasn't -- >> -- why is he in charge of that? >> i don't really understand why they didn't just cut him off and go to a panel. i really don't. it's just -- it's just a -- it's just an absolute mystery to me. i -- there are no words. there are absolutely no words. peter baker, donald trump, other than horrifying voters and making himself even less electable in 2024 in the very places he needs to win, in the suburbs of atlanta, philly, detroit and phoenix, he also gave prosecutors, it se wonderf.

he said, "i have the absolute people." then he lied and said, "they become declassified when i take them." no, they don't become declassified just because he stole them from a government building. i wonder, what's jack smith, what's the justice department thinking about the admissions that donald trump made on television last night? >> well, it obviously provides them a road map to any defense he might try to mount if they do prosecute him on obstruction of justice or something similar. you're exactly right, he is not entitled to take those documents with him, whether they're classified or not. they belong to the government, not him. that's number one. two, they're not automatically declassified. there was no evidence he declassified anything before he left office. three, he said there in reference to biden's time as vice president that a vice president can't declassify. that's not true. a vice president can declassify. he said so many things that

aren't true, of course, it's hard to take it seriously. he, in fact, of course, you're right, said, basically, that "i had the documents." he said -- the critical question that he was asked there by kaitlan collins is, "did you show them to anybody?" that seems to be of interest to prosecutors. prosecutors seem to be asking potential witnesses what he did with the documents. he never answered the question why he took them. she asked, "why did you take them in the first place?" he tried to say, "well, i just took them." what was he doing with the documents when he refused to return them? his answer there was obviously less than definitive, saying, "well, i don't remember." well, that's a big question. they may have witnesses saying the opposite. >> he was asked, the former president, about more legal trouble he faces. this one in the state of georgia where he made that infamous phone call to secretary of state brad raffensperger on january 22nd, 2021, where he asked the

secretary of state to, quote, find the votes. >> i only need 11,000 votes. fellas, i need 11,000 votes. give me a break. so look. all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. there's nothing wrong with saying that, you know, that you've recalculated. >> i want to move to another investigation you're facing, which is the one -- >> she doesn't understand it. >> -- in georgia where they are investigating your efforts to overturn the election results in the state of georgia. >> i did nothing wrong. it was a perfect phone call. >> let me finish my question. at the center of that is that call that you had with the secretary of state. >> perfect call. >> brad raffensperger. >> yeah, sure. >> given the fact there are indictments expected to come in that case this summer, is that a call you would make again today? >> yeah, i called questioning the election. i thought it was a rigged

election. i thought it it had a lot of problems. i called the secretary of state. listen to this, there are, like, seven lawyers on the call, we're having a normal call. nobody said, "oh, gee, he shouldn't have said that." if this call was bad, i question the election. >> you asked him to find you votes. >> i didn't ask him to find anything. >> we heard the audio tape, mr. you are asking him to find you 1 11,000 votes. >> i said, the election was rigged. why didn't him and his lawyers hang up? how dare you say that. this was a perfect phone call. >> eugene daniels, it's on the tape. we can play it again if people want us to. he asked the secretary of state to find 11,780 votes, calls it a recalculation, in his words, to give him the state of georgia and the presidency. the secretary of state, of course, refused to do that. wisely recorded the call to prove his side of the story. >> yeah, i mean, that was a

complete lie, right? she said, did you ask to find the votes? he said, "no, i didn't." we did. we've been hearing that audio for years at this point. like has been said, you know, while his political team may be celebrating, people who love donald trump, the folks that were there, celebrating with him, his legal team is probably not because of all of the things we're talking about right now. him opening up the kind of explanation, more so than i think he has before, his mental process in thinking about these things, right? talking about, once again, that this was a perfect phone call. something that's interesting is he always tries to throw it on other people. why didn't they stop me from doing it if it was a problem? you're the president of the united states. people usually don't stop the president of the united states from talking when they're on a call like that. we are expecting these indictments, as kaitlan said.

he is at the center of these investigations. i talked to a bunch of biden folks yesterday. there was a mix of giddiness from everybody, but also a mix of, like, fear. because, one, they felt like this proved their theory of the case. they think that donald trump is unfit to be president. they feel like people saw that for an hour or more yesterday. but they also are terrified because they heard people clapping from the very beginning. the audience were making all types of noise, smiling while he made jokes and laughing when he made jokes about e. jean carroll, talking about the election being stolen. all these things also scare them as they think about the campaign and move forward, and try to convince the american people, independents, and trying to pull off some of the republicans to vote for them in the general election. because everyone who i talked to yesterday said he may have solidified his front-runner status, possibly won the nomination last night. whether that's true or not,

we'll have to see. that's how the biden folks are feeling and a lot of republicans, as well. >> john, president biden tweeted out after the town hall, quote, do you want four more years of that, putting it simply. there is a balancing act, is there not, of letting donald trump go out and politically light himself on fire, but not playing the four-corners offense and try to run out the clock. >> you can't do that. there are some vulnerabilities this president faces. polls suggest that. there's concerns about his handling of the economy. we know there are some economic headwinds. the word recession is still being tossed around. his age, title 42, what this border will look like. there are plenty of things for this president to worry about. he needs a positive message. of course, the debt ceiling, as well. what last night did, i think, for the biden folks, they can play the same playbook again. will it work again? we'll see.

the independent swing voters who broke, some anyway, for him in 2016, against him in '20. hard to see how last night would be appealing for them. tom nichols, we were talking about who had a good day last night. it was a very, very short list of people who may have come out of that happy with what they saw. one of them is probably vladimir putin. returning to how we broke him in this hour with the clip we played there of trump talking about the war in ukraine, refusing to say that he is rooting for ukraine, refusing to say that he wants ukraine to win that conflict. yeah, he criticized trump -- i mean, he criticized putin once, vaguely, after kaitlan collins pushed him to don't, saysaying t it was a mistake to invade. but he said, "i can make this end," basically saying give russia what it wants. is this going to embolden putin? as poorly as this war is going, if he can hang on to 2024, he might get an assist if trump

were to win the white house again? >> absolutely. it's putin's dream to have an unhinged, sociopathic ignore ignoramous in the white house. he blundered into ukraine. what criticism do you have? well, that he went in at all. wouldn't call him a war criminal, wouldn't call him out for any of the things that russia is doing. both sides of the conflict effortless talked about, well, when buildings are destroyed, people are killed. as if buildings are getting destroyed from the sea somehow. of course, putin wants this guy back in. not only because it'd strengthen putin's hand in europe and ukraine and in russia, but because it would be disastrous

for the united states to have this emotionally disordered, i'll say it again, this emotionally disordered sociopath returning to the white house. that would be, you know, the end of nato. it would put another final -- maybe not a final nail, but one more nail in the coffin of american leadership around the world. you know, putin has to be sitting there with a trump '24 mug on his desk, hoping against all hope that trump is going to make it. even if trump doesn't get elected, i think putin is going to really enjoy the chaos that's going to come from having donald trump unleashed on the national scene again. >> yeah. >> because trump is an attention seeker, and he puts america on its back foot. the fact we're sitting here talking about this, you know, pathetic man, yet again, instead of important problems that face

the american republic. again, the guy is putin's dream. >> well, he certainly is. if you look at the fact that russia, and russian propagandists love promoting issues, ideas and people that actually tear america apart at the seams. it's been their game plan for a very long time, and donald trump does fit right into that. it is interesting, though, we are talking about donald trump again, because of what happened last night. peter baker, i remember dan mcglauglin saying, of "the national review," he said, and i think he nailed it, when americans are talking about joe biden, republicans are winning. when americans are talking about donald trump, democrats are winning. that was his warning, as donald trump got back out and made himself part of the '22

campaign. dan mcglauglin was saying, this is not a good thing. if they're talking about trump, we lose elections. they've lost election after he ex-. election. last night, as much of a train wreck as last night was, they've got to be celebrating in the biden white house. because he's right, if they're seeing the worst side of trump, seeing him in primetime, that ends up in the general election at least helping joe biden, doesn't it? >> yeah, absolutely plays into the strategy the biden people have, right? as you say, biden is not doing well. jonathan lemire rightly said, we has the issues we see in the polls and so forth. do you want trump to be president?

biden says, don't compare me to the almighty but the alternative. that's trump. they want this to be a choice. they want people to see what a trump return to the white house would mean. i think what we saw last night was not just, you know, all the different ways trump is challenging, you know, truth and norms and telegraphing what he would do in his second term. i think he is reminding us that he, in a second term, would have a whole lot more latitude and freedom to do these things because he wouldn't have to be worrying about another election. he certainly wouldn't be worrying about impeachment. he would be in office with a different codery of people who wouldn't be trying to steer his outlandish ideas, as they did in the first term. he would be a much more, you know, unleashed version of himself, as you saw last night. with that unleashed version, it is somebody who would, in fact,

not back up the ukrainians the same way as other republicans and democrats have been doing this last year. a president who would accrue to himself all sorts of power that he asserts are his to wield, even though that's not what the constitution or the law might say. a president who might return to the family separation policy at the border, as he talked about. all these different things that he told us last night he would do. he'd have a freer hand to do it if he wins again. that's what biden folks want americans to understand. >> yeah. you know, we're talking, jonathan lemire, about joe biden's problems, and everybody obsessed over one poll that certainly appeared to be an outlier from this past weekend. there was another poll yesterday, i believe, the day before, that showed joe biden at 43%. disapproval at 49%. upside down five points, which is far better than trump. abc poll/"washington post" poll

had him down, like, 20 points, upside down 20 points and losing badly to donald trump. this poll, like many other polls, has joe biden ahead. i do wonder if the media going to obsess over this poll for three days like they obsessed over that one poll over the weekend. i've never seen anything like it. that said, it's going to be close. it's still going to be a close race. this ugov/yahoo! poll has trump ahead by two points, approval rating at 43%. again, i hope there is sufficient hyperventilating over this poll like there was over the abc/"washington post" poll. but this is, right now, this is going to be a tight race. it's going to be on the margins. again, it's not going to be won across all 50 states. it's going to be won in the suburbs of atlanta, the suburbs of philly, the suburbs of detroit, the suburbs of phoenix,

right? >> there's no question. you can add a few others, milwaukee, atlanta, philadelphia, the list, with eno we know it. that's who determines elections in the united states right now. we can't overstate this. 2016, in part because he was the change candidate, americans' misgivings about hillary clinton, fair or not, trump is the one where he got enough of the independent swing voters, even disaffected democrats broke his way on that day in a handful of states, and he won by shredding the needle in the electoral college. that same group of people, the independent voters who decide elections in what is nearly a 50/50 country, they broke hardaway. it's hard to see those people seeing anything from trump since he left office, and that includes the january 6th insurrection, would make them want to come back to him. in particular, we saw it on

display last night. think how he talked to kaitlan collins. think about how he talked about e. jean carroll. women, suburban women voters are what decided the elections more than any other group, and those last night, it's hard to see them saying, "yeah, that's who i want to return to the white house." that's why, though this is a close election, most think the fundament taals narrowly favor biden. >> a lot to go until election day. peter baker, tom nichols, thank you, both. ahead on "morning joe," more from trump's town hall last night, including his remarks about the january 6th attack on the capitol. he called it a beautiful day. plus, embattled republican congressman george santos vows to keep fighting as federal prosecutors lay out a slew of serious charges against him. invoking a donald trump argument in his defense. also this morning, we'll be joined by the head of the

anti-defamation league, as we learn disturbing new details about the extremist ideoloies of the gunman in the texas mall shooting. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingrix today. ♪ you got a minute? how about all weekend? let's go. ahora! i'm a miami hotel. i'm looking for someone who loves art deco elegance, good times, and unexpected flavors. someone who likes it hot but knows how to keep their cool. a white-sand beach where you can see the sunrise?

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allen, texas, where the community is mourning eight lives lost at a mass shooting at a mall. a local pastor and the city's police department chapman was on the phone with his daughter, kennedy, who was on lockdown at her place of work at the mall. thankfully, she made it out safely. keion bird joins us now. thank you for joining us this morning. i want to talk broadly about your community, how it is doing, but can you talk a little more about your experience that day with your daughter? >> sure. thank you for having me, first of all. i who you would say i've been on the receiving end of a number of difficult calls, but quite possibly the worst or the most

difficult call on saturday coming in from kennedy, just kind of a feeling of helplessness, right? wondering if she's safe. different reports coming in over the scanner on if the shooter had been neutralized, if there were multiple shooters, thing of that nature. so, yeah, thank god she returned home safe to us. we know a number of others weren't as fortunate, so we're grateful for that. >> thank god, yes. as you say, though, there were too many people who didn't get the hopeful phone call, who didn't get that relief. we talked about a family, two parents who were killed along with their 3-year-old child. their 6-year-old son survived. he'll grow up without parents, without his little brother. as a pastor, what can you say to the people in your community? what can you say to the families to try to make -- not make sense of any of this, but to provide at least a little bit of comfort in something just so

unthinkable? >> yeah, i think it's a great question. we hosted a community prayer night last night. all of the questions come in on, why would a good god allow such bad things to happen? the honest truth for us, at least what we've tried to communicate, is on this side of heaven, for those of us who are believers, there are sometimes no answers, right? we're just trying to support people spirituality as best we can, trying to meet some more of the tangible needs, as well, but just helping people that are struggling with belief or faith to understand that maybe god didn't cause all of these things, but we believe that he can use them and turn them for good. just trying to love and support those that are hurting, those that lost loved ones, those that had been traumatized in this event, and just walking with him through the difficult time, to try to help point them to faith and help restore hope, right? >> as i mentioned, you are the

chaplain for the allen police department. the officers bravely ran toward the sound of gunfire and took out the shooter, but not before he killed eight people. what are the police officers saying to you in your conversations with them? >> yeah, i can't tell you how proud i am to be affiliated with the city of allen and the brave first responders. we've seen in recent months and years even where maybe law enforcement, we feel like, didn't do the right thing or respond in the right amount of time. here's a case where a very brave officer responded immediately on an unrelated call. for sure, we feel like put a stop to something that could have been much worse. so for the officers, this is what they swear an oath, to protect and serve. i think our officers here in our community do a very good job of that. for us as chaplains and also just the community, try to rally around them, right? they are supposed to be strong,

and usually they do a very good job of showing that externally. so we're just trying to make sure they know that they've got a platform or an outlet to talk about some of the things that they've seen. it's tough for them as it is tough for everybody else. just really trying to offer support for them. >> they did perform heroically that day. more evidence, even with an officer on site for a different call, the good guy with the good did his job, but not before eight people died. keon byrd, glad your daughter is safe, and sorry for what your community is going through this morning. thank you for being with us. >> thank you. the anti-defamation league is looking into the suspected social media accounts of the texas mall gunman. researchers believe the shooter was obsessed with violence and subscribed the a range of extremist ideology, including

white supremacy and anti- semitigs. what have you found about the gunman here? >> our analysts have been going through the digital bread crumbs left by the shooter. on russian media sites, he had almost a diary, where he professed a bizarre set of extremist ideas. number one, he was a violent misogynist, a member of what we call the incell movement. he is a heterosexual man that has no success with women. he was obsessed with nazism and white supremacy. there have been images we found that have been widely reported, this is a hispanic man with a swastika and bolts tattooed on his body. he wrote about the jewish question. he believed that jews had engineered society so that men were unable to mate with women. those are his words, not mine. again, this is this fusion of

violent misogyny and ugly anti-semitism and,ploded with h in allen, texas. >> there's been a rise of the hateful rhetoric in recent years. when these horrible images are found after the fact, is there anything that can be done ahead of time? how do warning systems be developed, so someone would perhaps, police or someone, might see something like this and go, wait a minute, this could be -- this could lead to violence down the road? >> at adl, we do this. we're actively monitoring public media and trying to look at private media, even the dark web. we see what's happening. vis-a-vis persons like this, when they express intent, when they indicate they have capability like access to firearms, and this guy had a whole, you know, munitions closet if you will. thirdly, we can approximate a location. we'll share the information with law enforcement. but the challenge is, jonathan, it's like boiling the ocean.

because social media is such a cesspool of not just anti-semitism, also racism and bigotry of all sorts. it can be very hard to track this down. when sei when sites like tiktok or twitter normalize this extremism, it almost comes routine, and then we're all in trouble. >> eugene daniels, it is sadly and tragically a familiar mix of hatred, in this case, violent misogyny, anti-semitism. his patch reportedly said right-wing death squad the day of the shooting. of course, access to a semiautomatic rifle. >> yeah, that's right. that's why this issue about -- with guns is so difficult for people to deal with. jonathan, i'm curious for you, as you guys look at these and you dig into the hate that people are dealing with, espousing around this country, does that feel like this is so difficult to get our hands on?

because it is cultural, it is political, it is in the very fabric of this country and continues to be. >> well, hate certainly isn't new, right? like, it is a persistent, i think, condition of humanity. but what's really worrisome, eugene, is when it is normalized. when extremism becomes the -- and conspiracy theories are the coin of the realm for politicians and public officials, some of the lunacy you saw last night at this debate, i mean, let's keep in mind that last weekend was allen, texas. this weekend is the one year anniversary of the massacre in buffalo at the tops supermarket, where ten african-american people were gunned down and killed in a parking lot, simply because of their race. so this hate is a virus. when you bring it together with guns, it is lethal and kills everyone in its wake. >> boiling the ocean sounds

daunting, and it is. you work on this every day. what's some optimism? how do we make this better? how do we get out of this? >> there are definitely ways to improve it. number one, i think that we can inoculate our children from the virus of intolerance. we were talking earlier. bringing anti-bias, anti-hate education into schools, teaching our kids about, you know, how wrong that kind of stuff is. and what it is like to love each other, like, that's pretty basic and has sort of fallen out of style in some places. we need to bring it back. that's number one. number two, we need these social media companies not to flamethrowers, and we know what is happening at twitter with a former fox news host. social media companies and big tech in general can do a better job at applying just a hint of decorum, to thinking about who they platform and public and who they don't. >> start by teaching the holocaust a little more closely in schools to see where this can go. we've lost too much of that.

keep "diary of anne frank" on the shelves. basic stuff. jonathan, thank you, as always. good to see you. "politico's" eugene daniels, thank you, as well. see you soon. "the new york times" describes five south carolina lawmakers as a group of unlikely women blocking the state's near total abortion ban. two of the so-called sister senators join us straight ahead on "morning joe." when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis keeps flaring, put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable, i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. and left bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc got in my way, i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when my gastro saw damage, rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting, steroid-free remission. and a chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check. check. and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb.

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a total of 14 states passed near total bans on abortion since the supreme court overturned roe versus wade last year but south carolina is not one of them because a bipartisan group of five female state senators have banded together and filibustered a house bill that would have banned abortion at conception and their efforts came despite a supermajority in the state and the group of women has been dubbed the sister senators. they include three republicans,

one democrat and one independent. >> the fact is i do not want anyone in this room making life and death decisions for me, my daughter, my granddaughter and for that fact anyone. i also do not want the person i choose as my medical professional to stop in the middle of a procedure and request the south carolina code of laws to decide if he can proceed or may be committing a crime punishable by a fine or time in prison. >> choice does give you power. it gives a woman and a child power to live a very productive life. this is not your place. you say they represent them. let them decide. >> the two join us from

columbia, south carolina. good morning to you both. we appreciate you being here. senator she aly. you do sit on opposite sides of the political aisle, different views on the subject of abortion. why was this so important to you? >> well, for one thing, first, thank you for having with us this morning, but for one thing, i do believe that being pregnant and having a child issing only the women in the state of south carolina can relate to. this is not something that all the men in that chamber which there are way more men in the south carolina legislature, we rank 47th in women to -- men to women in the legislature but they can't compare to what the women are feeling across the

state. that's not an issue they're familiar with but for them to make that decision for women is not and reality, but for the last six years, we have listened back and forth on abortion and for the first four years probably we let them talk about it and listened to it over and over again and finally decided it's our turn to speak up and say what we really feel and we've decided that we're not going to let it stop with what they want to do. if it were left up to the house of representatives in the state of south carolina, we would have no abortion after conception laws with little to no exceptions, and, you know, that's not what the women or the majority of the people of south carolina don't want that legislation, and it really should be up to a woman, her spouse, her partner, her family

and her doctor, not to 170 legislators in south carolina. >> so, senator matthews, just this partisanship is heartening. were you surprised by the outreach from a group of senators who see the issue differently than you do? >> no, i'm not surprised, because this is not a political issue. it's not a partisan issue. this is a woman's right issue. it's an issue of us coming together to say, hey, shouldn't we let women and their significant other, the doctor, decide what should be done with their reproductive rights. it's difficult as a woman and it's usually only one of us in the room on most of the committee meetings, we banded together primarily because of our realization that men had no

idea what it's really like to go through a pregnancy, much less what it's like to go through a difficult pregnancy and that one issue brought us together because we would sit in committee meetings and hear things like a woman ought to know she's prigozhin after six weeks or if she's been raped, she should have the child and love on the child without medical intervention. after hearing things like that over the years, that's how we banded together, because we were one and all at the fact that men were just trying to control this issue and not listen to women. so we came together on that one note. >> hi, it's jennifer palmieri. great to meet you both. after roe fell and south carolina acted some of the male legislatures admitting they had no idea of the impact of the legislation they were trying to

enact, so for both of you, tell me, you know, i know you've been attacked a lot, had a lot of nasty protests and, you know, people giving you -- people giving you small spines as if you needed that to fortify you, but on the anti-abortion side, but tell me what are the stories you're hearing from women in the state that support what you're trying to do. >> i think for every hundred positive comments, i'll get two negative comments, so i think it's overwhelming the way the women feel in south carolina. i think the men have gone brain dead on this. they just -- they either don't read their email or they're just not listening. they do have a coalition of people they will bring to the lobby of the statehouse.

they will bring their children. we have had little children come up to us and say things like, you're a baby killer and latch on to you and, you know, who would bring their child to the statehouse and have -- they only latch on to female senators and call us baby killers. we have one regular protester that brings pictures of cut up babies and stands there and calls us baby killers and reads bible scripture to us. they only do that to the female senators. we have that -- that's usually every week. but, you know, we've stood strong. the spine thing, that was probably the worst case of lobbying i've ever seen in my life because it only made us stand stronger together, and, you know, once you've tackled a situation, i don't think, you know, if you want to lobby me and any of my other sister senators, the way to talk to us

is sit down and explain the way you feel the way you do. i don't think they know why they feel the way they do and found this cause and they want to push it down our throat and we are not going to change the way we feel and we have several of the male republican legislators that have stood with us, three, but we have three that stood with us and i think they will continue to band with us, at least i hope they will and, you know, we're not going to give up on this. the house has taken our bill back that we had sent over there earlier this year, and they have added, you know, tongues of amendments to it and then the house democrat women took the bill back to the house chambers yesterday with, i think, a thousand amendments, so this is not over. we didn't have a resolution so we will be back probably week after next to take it up again, which is not -- not the way we

want to spend our summer because we've been on this for four times in eight months, so this is not what we want, i decent think this is what the people of south carolina want. we want to end this. this is where we are. >> this is about taking rights away from women, and so it's -- it can be demoralizing that way, but do you find people are they reacting because they're angry, empowered, want to fight back? what's the reaction? this shouldn't just be about women but men and women both. >> primarily i don't think this is about taking a woman's right. i think it's more of a control. it starts here, how can they control what a woman does as it rees to her body. and the response has been from

women and men on both sides of the aisle invariably they keep telling us to keep fighting because they feel that this should be either some will say it should be roe versus wade codified or put it to the voters of south carolina. a number of republicans and democratic senators have filed bills to put it as a referendum in south carolina and those have been ignored. so we don't intend to stop fighting. i filibustered this issue for many hours my first year in the senate and every year since then we've been at it and we keep getting "way to go" from all of south carolina. >> because of the coalition you have formed with the sister senators abortion remains legal up to 22 weeks in the state of south carolina. south carolina state authorities marriage bring bright matthews

and katrina shealy. an immigration restriction known as title 42 is set to expire tonight creating confusion for hundreds of migrants lined up hoping to enter the country. also ahead we'll show you what republican congressman george santos had to say about the federal charges he is now facing. but first donald trump's biggest lies from last night's cnn town hall. >> it was the largest crowd i've ever spoken to. that was prior to the walk down to the capitol building. i don't think and i've spoken to hundreds of thousands of people, i've never spoken to a crowd as large as this and that's because they thought the election was rigged and they were there proud. [ crowd chanting ] >> they were there with love in their heart.

that was an unbelievable and it was a beautiful day. >> donald trump last night in his cnn town hall calling january 6th a beautiful day. the event, of course, last night full of lies, misleading statements and go through the biggest ones and also his comments about writer e. jean carroll that drew laughs and cheers from the crowd. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." thursday, may 11th, the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, jen palmieri, jon meacham and congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post" jackie alemany. we watched a rerun of what we saw in 2016 and throughout donald trump's presidency. he committed again last night the claim that the election was rigged in 2020. it was not, of course.

he called january 6th a beautiful day. he said he was going to pardon the people who attacked police officers on that day. the list goes on and on and on, would not commit to supporting ukraine in its war with russia. we're going to get into some of it but no surprises in what he said last night. >> no surprises and, yet, it was -- it was a disgraceful performance. i'm constantly telling people not -- that trump is going to lose because he keeps drilling down deeper and deeper into his base, but it is -- i can't believe i'm going to use catastrophizing here. it showed -- i wouldn't say it's dangerous for democracy because

we passed that a long time ago, but it showed the corrosive we fecks of trumpism over eight years and i've got to say, the most shocking a president who tried to overturn american democracy. the audience that mocked and ridiculed the woman who a jury of her peers, donald trump's peers found had been sexually assaulted, those americans there last night turned that into a punch line, laughed and dismissed cops getting the [ bleep ] kicked out of them on january the 6th, beaten up over and over again, calling a cop a thug who actually was trying to

stop people from the house floor from being killed. i could go -- i just could go on and on basically saying he would turn over ukraine to vladimir putin. it was -- jon meacham, on every front you could go piece by piece by piece to talk about how breathtakingly dangerous what we saw was last night. this virus of lies, it's been on the american people but what we saw last night was, it was a propagandist spewing lies over and over and over again and an audience, an american audience lapping it up. this isn't putin's russia. this is trump's slice of america and what i saw last night at

least was as chilling as anything i've seen on television since january the 6th. >> yeah, we're looking at his reality has become our reality and he has largely invented the way he sees the world. it's dark, it's dystopian, it's divisive. we're all the way back to i alone can fix it. i alone can save the country from this abyss and it doesn't take a huge amount of imagination to see what he thinks is the abyss and i think we're always two weeks away from chaos, right? that's the nature of humankind, of history.

this is not -- this should not be surprising to people. what it must be, however, is a reminder that if you believe in american democracy, if you believe in a rule of law that protects you and your neighbor, not just because it's the right thing to do but because your neighbors if protected are more likely to respect you. if you believe in that, this is the choice. it's very clear, you and i can go on and, you know, we can talk about jefferson and madison and all of that, but it's very clear, if you believe in a country of decency and opportunity, you have a choice. if you believe in a country that -- which is animated by grievance, you have your choice. >> yeah, you do.

and i'm going to say, again, as horrific as last night was, i'm just going to say the same thing i say every time he says something that veers off the cliff and is so counter to american tradition, the american constitution, constitutional political norms, it will end up hurting him in the end but, i do think and i'm not going to sit here tonight and point fingers at anybody. it was a tough assignment, i will say, i hope reporters, journalists will look at what happened last night and see that as basically a preseason film about, you know, and study it to see what needs to be avoided move fogrd.

you can't get past the first question until the first question is answered, which is joe biden president? is joe biden president? you say the election was rigged. 63 federal judges, mr. president, 63 federal judges all said you were lying. all said there was no widespread election fraud. your own supreme court, mr. president, said you were lying, that there was no widespread fraud. even alito and thomas wrote that there weren't enough votes, even if you took all of trump's arguments to change the outcome of pennsylvania which was the case before them at the time, a state that he brought up last night, arizona, we talked about it, how many recounts did

republican officials in arizona, republican officials in arizona make and the cyberpunks actually added to biden's totals. georgia, forgive me for being exhaustive, this is what everybody has to do, georgia, republican election officials repeatedly, repeatedly said that donald trump lost the trumpy governor of georgia said it, the trumpy secretary of state in georgia said it. it was so bad he recorded a phone call while trump was telling him to throw out just enough votes for him to win. you don't ever get past that to talk about regulations or energy policy. you can't in 2024 as this election heats up. it just -- you just don't get

there. if you do ever get past that you've got to stay on january 6th until that's exhausted and it didn't happen last night, but, again, that serves as a notice to the rest of us moving forward about what we need to do in 2024 because we're on notice. we've had eight years of notice and we cannot let him just spew lies nonstop and any interview or any town hall meter. >> and kaitlan collins did have some of that information. the problem was in that format it was a rally, it wasn't a town hall. it was full of trump supporters. they laughed at every insult and supported every lie he told and fed off that as he does, turned to the audience as an ally against her. within the first few minutes of his cnn town hall last night, trump already was pushing that lie about the 2020 election.

>> why should americans put you back in the white house? >> because we did fantastically, we got 12 million more votes than we had, as you know, in 2016. i actually say we did far better in that election. it was a rigged election and it's a shame that we had to go through it. it's very bad for our country. >> it was not a rigged election. you and your supporters lost more than 60 court cases on the election. it's been nearly 2 1/2 years. can you publicly acknowledge you did lose the 2020 election. >> let me just go on. if you look at truth of vote they found millions of votes on camera on government cameras where they were stuffing ballot boxes. >> republican officials debunked those claims about fraudulent ballots. we want to give you a chance -- >> who? >> republican officials. >> who? >> georgia and every single state. your own election official, mr. president so we want to give you -- >> afraid to take on the issue but we have a problem in this country. >> we want to give you a chance

to acknowledge the results. >> -- that were horrible. >> question to you, is will you pardon the january 6th require yachters who were convicted of federal offenses? >> i am inclined to pardon many of them. i can't say for every single one because a couple of them probably they got out of control. what they've done to these people. they've persecuted these people and, yeah, my answer is, i am most likely if i get in, i will most likely, i would say it will be a large portion of them. >> so, again, jon, donald trump said january 6th was a beautiful day. his words there. he said people were there with love in their hearts and then sort of conceded some of them got out of control but i'll let the people out of jail who beat up cops and we all saw it happen with our own eyes. >> it was lie after lie after lie. donald trump has not changed. this is who he was in 2016. this is who he was in 2020. nothing changed and he lied and ran roughshod last night.

you started to talk about it a moment ago, the deep flaw was the crowd. you know, it was republican voters, there were trump supporters, people who worked on trump's previous campaign were spotted as audience members last night. we know emails were sent out to trump republican clubs to say, hey, come cheer on the former president of the united states at this town hall and they did act like a rally and it was which he called the moderator, nasty, the audience laughed and cheered. he called e. jean carroll a whack job. the crowd laughed and cheered. that was the normalizing for him and gave him allies in the audience and shows how he has just reshaped the republican party in his image, the complete dominance of the party and he was given this opportunity last night to talk to them and show again that he's in charge. the counter and joe started to mention, i heard from senior biden people basically said that was an hour long campaign ad for us and the president's response

afterward was a tweet saying, look, if you want four more years of -- to avoid that, vote for me. you don't want to go back to that so, there, it is again this dichotomy. everything trump is doing seems to further his hold on republicans but probably hurts him in the general election but, of course, if you're in the final two you've inherently got a shot. >> of course, he has a shot and been saying that from the beginning. you talk about it being a game of addition, and not subtraction. if you watched those 70 minutes was there a single voter who said i'm an independent not in love with joe biden but i like what i saw last night, i'm going to vote for donald trump? >> that's something we have been talking about for year, something i never understood. if donald trump had dropped all this garbage and talked about the economy, 2018/2019, going into 2020 did the best to handle covid. he would have been re-elected.

you look at the map and numbers, he could have been but he kept boiling his support down, and it continues to happen and jonathan just brings up a great point, you have a guy, but first of all, still lying about the election being rigged. that's a minority view in america by a large swath of people. you -- in fact, that abc poll that was supposed to be horrible for joe biden, a majority of americans said trump should be arrested, should be arrested for what he tried to do in rigging the 2020 election. that's how much of a minority thing it is. praising convicts, praising rioters who beat the hell out of cops and defecated in the people's house, the united states house of representatives. he's praising these people. yes, it's horrifying. it's horrifying, but it hurts

him politically. again, we can go down the list mocking and ridiculing a woman who was sexually abused by donald trump, sexually abused by donald trump according to a jury of his peers. that woman mocked and ridiculed and this republican audience of republican club members and people, these trump loyalists, they're mocking and ridiculing a woman that a jury just found had been sexually abused. sexually abused. that doesn't help donald trump. it crushes him in the atlanta suburbs and the philly suburbs and in wisconsin and in the detroit suburbs, all the places he needs to gain, last night, the trump campaign loved what

they saw because they're stupid. they really are. they're just colossally stupid if they think that was good and the biden white house thrilled that he once again showed his colors. there's breaking news that just broke, across financial times, jeffrey katzenberg this morning, news breaking said he will do whatever it takes, he will provide whatever money is needed from his fortune to make sure donald trump is not elected president of the united states. do you know how many people are waking up saying that? do you know how many are waking up saying, i need to get involved in 2024 and stop this fascist. stop this liar. stop this guy who elevates vladimir putin and trashes america and calls it the greatest threat to western civilization.

there is -- there is this morning a lightning bolt going through the american electorate and it's reminding everybody the stakes of a second donald trump presidency. so last night, bad for democracy, bad for media, but even worse, jackie, for donald trump and you know about january 6th, you know the numbers and majority of americans don't buy what donald trump was trying to sell last night or on january the 6th but also e. jean carroll being mocked and ridiculed, a woman sexually abused, being mocked and ridiculed by that audience, a really horrific, horrific thing and politically a horrific look for donald trump and his republican party. >> yeah, joe, i mean, i covered

the rise of trumpism in new hampshire. i was living there in 2015 and 2016 and then last night was really felt like a regurgitation of those two years, especially in new hampshire voters and republican trump supporting voters who were loving what trump was serving up to them. got to give kaitlan collins trying to hold his feet to the fire but as you've noted he is a spigot of misinformation and, you know, doing so and fact-checking every single thing he said is a real challenge, but, i mean, it should be noted that the supreme court was the most conservative it's been in 90 years in part thanks to trump and they rejected the trump campaign's appeals to challenge trump's challenges to biden's election victory and i think

what's also been lost in this conversation, there's been some criticisms from the right of the kinds of questions that were being asked to trump, but these very basic questions about sexual assault, about believing in free and fair elections, about publicly claiming -- publicly acknowledging that you fairly lost the 2020 election are pivotal and important to long-term democratic norms without, you know, confidence in free and fair elections. that long-term democratic development is threatened and imperiled and has global implications. so, you know, it's definitely a snapshot of what we'll see going forward of what voters want to see from the republican nominee, and a pretty good, i think, case study for democratic candidates for joe biden going forward in the next two years leading up to

november 2024. >> yeah, tough unfair questions like will you respect the outcome of the 2024 election. he would not commit to doing that. jen, forgive me for triggering your ptsd. what did you see last night and if you were working on the biden campaign would you be heartened by what you saw, not for the country certainly but for your chances to be re-elected? >> i think if you were the biden campaign you're thinking, okay, that did show for everyone what's at stake here, but also it's scary because that shows what's at stake for democracy. you know, it did sort of show for me the cumulative impact of trumpism over the last eight years that he's really been part of our politic, like, remember like the new hampshire town hall, it's not just a thing with presidential politics like it's a storied place in american democracy. the idea that you have civil town halls where people who are

undecided, right, not sure who they're going to support come together to have respectful conversations where they ask questions of candidates. you know, this is something that i'd say 2004 is probably the height of that with cnn, msnbc, other people doing town halls with presidential candidates and wanted to bring the new hampshire experience, the civil good politics new hampshire experience to television, and trump just made a mockery of that, the crowd, it was like kaitlan collins was having to serve as a truth translator at a trump rally. so for the biden campaign, what does it go back to? finish the job, right? he talked about when he announced his re-election a couple weeks ago finish the job with a lot of policy initiatives, guns, paid leave, child care, climate, but, you know, he ran to defeat trump and

trump is still here and when he talks about finish the job now we're going to, you know, have that -- the images we saw last night in our heads. >> coming up what the former president said last night about a jury's verdict on tuesday that found him liable for sexually abusing columnist e. jean carroll in the 1990s. that's next on "morning joe." but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. asking the right question can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this? - what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - are you a certified financial planner™? - i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest.

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donald trump also defended his comments from the 2005 "access hollywood" tape where he's heard celebs can do anything they want to a woman, a tape a key part of e. jean carroll's civil rape case against him. >> if you're a star, you are -- and i said women let you. i didn't say you grab. i said women let. you didn't use that word but if you look women let you -- now, they said, will you take that back? i said, look, for a million years this is the way it's been. i want to be honest. this is the way it's been.

i can take it back if you had weigh like to but if you're a famous person, if you're a star and i'm not referring to myself. i'm saying people that are famous -- >> you were asked in a deposition if you consider yourself to be a star. >> they tend to do pretty well in a lot of different ways, okay, and you would like knee to take it back. i can't because it happens to be true. i said it's been true for 1 million years, perhaps a little longer than that. >> so you stand -- >> i don't want to lie. >> mr. president, here's my question, let's get to the audience question -- >> -- has no advantage. do you have an advantage and i say unfortunately but that's the way it is. >> you said fortunately or unfortunately. mr. president, we have a lot of audience -- >> well, so if you are keeping score at home and i understand it might be hard to because of all the lies that were spewed last night, donald trump just said that if you're a star like

him, which he did say in the deposition, of course, he was a star and if you're wealthy and powerful that you will do better in a number of ways and his definition of doing better in a number of ways going back to the "access hollywood" tape is reaching out and sexually abusing women. his words. his words. it's just -- it's straightforward, so here we have, again, a night that is bad for democracy, a night that was bad for the media. a night bad for cnn, a night bad for donald trump's campaign. again, the winner last night from just that absolute monstrosity of a town hall meeting with an audience shipped in from -- i mean i thought we were supposed to have swing

voters there. an audience shipped in from republican clubs across the state of new hampshire. the only winner was joe biden. that's why jeff industry katzenberg said i'll give whatever i have to give to stop donald trump. this is -- last night was a political earthquake and people are waking up this morning understanding once again the consequences of donald trump in the white house. a guy who is breached one political norm after another, one constitutional norm after another. and, you know, you look at this and, jackie, let me go back to you, you have the most important part, going back to trump, what willie brought up, he is hurting

himself here by pushing away the very people he needs on board. he is now in a republican party. he is running a republican party and sending a message to women across america that if you're successful, i want to get his words right, they do well in a number of ways and one of those ways, he said, referring back to the "access hollywood" tape was the ability to just walk up and sexually abuse women. you have donald trump and a public party that require 10-year-old girls who are raped to be chased out of their states. donald trump and a republican party that still is lying about january 6th, still lying about a rigged election. and it's only going to hurt donald trump.

again, in all of those suburb, all of that madness that happened last night, at the end of the day it's only going to hurt trump but this is where we are. it doesn't make it any less damaging to democracy that that was allowed to go on tv last night. >> this is certainly not attracting any independent swingy college educated women voters to the republican party for those who either watched in realtime last night or reading the headlines this morning and this goes exactly to what you and i discussed last week, joe, what is going to be a major central topic going into 2024, something that was covered extensively in the draft gop autopsy report my colleagues reported on which said republicans not only need to learn to talk about issues like abortion in a more moderate and

centrist way by supporting things like exceptions when it comes to abortion bans, but also in terms of tone and that tone that you saw last night is the exact opposite of what people like ronna mcdaniel have been advising gop candidates. they've been recommending to candidates to address the sensitive topics head on to be compassionate, take a page from joe biden's notebook and have a tone that is more inclusive and brings women into the fold or at least makes them feel like the republican party can be an ally to women. >> yeah, and, of course, speaking of women, i didn't even talk about mothers who are now afraid to send their children to school. because of what happens all too often and because of donald trump's republican party unwilling to do anything to protect our children in schools, in churches, in synagogues,

country music festivals and shopping malls, in grocery store, you name it. willie, i just have to ask, i have to ask what the hell was it with that audience? what the hell? what were they thinking putting that audience in there where it was -- those weren't undecided voters. it was a pep rally for donald trump, where they mocked and ridiculed the cnn anchor and mocked and ridiculed a woman who was sexually abused by the man on stage, they were applauding. what was with that ad? how was that audience elected? >> you're right. it was advertised as republicans and undecided voters in new hampshire, which is jen said a

minute ago, there is a traditional of town halls. i've done some with hillary clinton and candidates on both sides of the aisle and you get good questions from smart, engaged voters that challenge the candidate. that's not what we got. there was no challenge. kaitlan collins was alone on stage on her own network's town hall meeting and, jon, you do wonder let's wonder ron desantis gets in the race a couple of weeks from now, does he really have a shot against that, when that passionate trump wing, the loudest and most vocal and strongest part of that base is so enthralled with donald trump and cheers all the things we've been laying out for the last 30 minutes, all of the important statements, all of the lies and insults, it appears to be what that part of the republican party, which is most of it if you look at the polling right now wants and that donald trump will, in fact, be the nominee.

>> i'm always wrong about this but if you have the original why watch a spin-off. you could play the met to -- metaphor. if you have real coke, why would you want coke zero? an elemental connection between trump and that base, it is remarkable, it is deep. it's real, and it could be controlling. right? could be dispositive. when we talk about the independent voters who one hopes would engage with this phenomena, see this and go running, remember, the "access hollywood" vernacular was adjudicated twice in '16 and in '20. almost everything we saw last

night is for anyone paying the slightest bit of attention already part of the trump phenomenon. and 71 or whatever million people in 020 after the covid reaction, and let's remember, a million people died from that virus. 71 million people said, yeah, let's try this again. so, i passionately believe the argument has to be made for a constitutional order where there is give and take. that said, i'm not entirely sure that the right number of voters in the right states agree with that. and so i understand and as we talk about the president's -- i

am not ensurely sure. i'm not ensurely sold that president biden's the big winner out of something like last night. i hope so. we're talking about an elemental force and what's so remarkable about america is that it took us this long to face this challenge at this level. what it's going to require is all of us at each point in this unfolding story to remind ourselves that it's more important to defeat this force and this person in donald trump than almost anything else and if we don't remind ourselves of that, then chaos awaits, more chaos. >> what donald trump promised

last night when that town hall was at a second trump term would be the first one and maybe a little worse. jon, jackie, we appreciate it. the ongoing debt ceiling fight raising fears about a possible default. donald trump had something to say about that as well last night. steve rattner joins us to explain what it all could mean for the u.s. economy. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪♪ allergies don't have to be scary. (screaming)

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the -- using the debt ceilings is a negotiating wedge could not

happen. you said that -- >> that's when i was president. >> so why is it different now that you're out of office? >> because now i'm not president. [ laughter ] >> the u.s. defaulting would be massive -- >> you don't know. it's psychological more than anything else and it could be very bad. it could be maybe nothing. maybe it's you have a bad week or a bad day but, look, you have to cut your costs. we're spending $7 trillion on much of it on nonsense, $7 trillion on nonsense. >> we have a question from a voter. >> get all that money wasted and frankly the senate should is never approved it. get it and if they don't get rid of it you'll have to default. >> donald trump at the town hall and first bite you heard was from 2019 where he said raising the debt limit was a sacred element of the country says maybe we default. steve rattner is over at the big

southwest wall with his world famous charts. steve, good morning. good to see you. before you dive into the charts just your reaction to what you said that maybe wouldn't be so bad if we defaulted for a little while. >> what. [ cheers and applause ] ed when we almost defaulted back in 2011 which was the worst debt ceiling crisis we've had before the current one and explain these numbers in a second. in that crisis even though it was resolved, what happened? the u.s. lost its aaa credit rating from standard and poor's. has yet to get it back, we were 1.2 million jobs fewer over time than we would have had if we hadn't had the problem, the stock market dropped 17% in the course of all this. it's a little hard to say this is some sort of big circus or joke or just an illusion. >> so you've got unprecedented market fears of a default happening right now, the markets don't seem to be confident the white house and kevin mccarthy and the congress can work this out. >> right, so as i said, this is

a measure of insurance on the u.s. debt. you can buy insurance against the default just like your car or house. obviously higher is bad and so 2011, as i said, was our worst previous case, it got to this index and got to 85, had a smaller one in 2013. but look where we are here now, almost at 200, under 180. look at this as a kind of fear index if you want of what people believe in the markets could possibly happen in this crisis, everyone i talk to, everyone who is involved in the past crises say this is the worst one, the scariest one yet. >> steve, as we move over to your second chart, what republicans are hoping to extract from this negotiation over the debt ceiling, major cuts to discretionary spending. >> let's set a baseline to explain that quickly. here's our budget.

$6.3 trillion. most of it is made up of things that congress does not appropriate on a yearly basis, social security, medicare, medicaid, things like that are all locked in. then you have defense which most people consider to be locked in and so what we're fighting about, what the republicans are aiming at is the 11% slice of the budget. where that becomes important is because when you start cutting the amount they want to cut you are only cutting from this, they want to cut 47% of that and so that includes all these different kinds of agencies, nasa, commerce, international, education, energy, labor, justice, state, all of them would have their budgets cut by 47% after inflation so the actual cuts would be bigger and just to put that in perspective with the president's proposal, the president has a relatively modest increase of 4% in his spending and has offsetting

deficit reduction measures which we'll talk about in a second. >> 47% proposed cuts to discretionary spending and your third chart represents a philosophical difference where joe biden wants to find the money by raising taxes and republicans want to cut spending. >> exactly, willie. first you have the republican cuts we talked about essentially are 4.8 trillion of which virtually 4.5 trillion is by cutting taxes. ironically most of the revenue raises they want is by taking away the irs funding which cost the government money because we make money on the irs because of the audits and recovering money from taxpayers. so president biden as i said wants to increase spending modestly by $2.6 billion over ten years, a trillion dollars over ten year, that should be a "t" but wants to raise taxes mostly on business and wealthy

americans by 5.3 trillion over the same period so his deficit reduction is smaller than the republicans but if you look at this last chart here, what you'll see is that the republican savings are in the early years biden catches up and by the end biden reduces the deficit by slightly more than trump when you get to the out years. we shouldn't -- there is the problem. that is our growing deficit without doing something and both of them are trying to do something but as you alluded to, the something is very different. >> coming up next, donald trump's comment comment at the l last night where he suggests he would bring back his policy to separate migrant children from their parents if he's elected again. their parents if he's elected again. so diabetes, this changes things, huh? hey, a lot of people in your corner including walgreens. but do i have to give up sweets? if you work out a diet plan, nothing is off limits. you dropped it! i don't know if i can afford all these prescriptions.

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the pandemic era immigration policy known as title 42 is set

to expire at 11:59 eastern tonight. migrant crossings have picked up with more than 11,000 crossing into the united states on tuesday alone. joining us from el paso, texas, julia ainsley. good morning. what does it look like today with just hours to go before that deadline? >> reporter: the numbers are rising and are going to get higher. right now, you wouldn't know it from where i'm standing outside sacred heart church in downtown el paso, where usually we've seen hundreds of migrants camping out. you can see now a lot of the sidewalk has been cleared. we understand that overnight immigration authorities came through here and moved a lot of these migrants out, made sure they were processed at facilities. what happens after that is they start releasing them. some of those migrants may be coming back here today.

that was something that happened yesterday. a lot of the shelters were cleared out. the very same people were coming back after they'd been processed. it's a strategy to clear more space, get more people through the system ahead of that expected church. tonight title 42 will lift, meaning anyone who crosses the border can claim asylum. still, the rules are harder. they will be rapidly expedited for removal and deportation. but the processing will take longer. that's what has border patrol concerned. i talked to the chief raoul ortiz yesterday, who said if numbers get to 13 or 14,000, they're worried they won't have the detention space and the capacity to move migrants around to ease up that tension. in fact, we reported yesterday about a border patrol plan to start releasing migrants if they

get too far over capacity, to release migrants without court dates or tracking migrants as they move around this country. on the other hand, they're doing measures to stop the members from getting too high. they sent troops to the border. they're actually putting families on a geo locating program that will tell them where the head of the household is. they're also trying to expand an app so people can apply legally for appointments to come here and processing centers in other countries so people can apply where they live rather than making that dangerous journey to the border. it's to keep legal pathways open, while keeping them from here. embattled congressman george santos pleads not guilty to new

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everyone loves free stuff chuck. can we get peyton a footlong? get it before it's gone. on the subway app. we're in the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. we've been talking this morning about what a lot of people were talking about last night. that is the town hall meeting that donald trump had at cnn. i must say he once again proves that he does things that are both shocking and not surprising. but he somehow lowers the bar on everything and in so doing. this event last night was bad for the media, it was bad for cnn, it was bad for american

democracy. but it was bad for donald trump and it was bad for donald trump because it's just like when he had those covid press conferences, he would say something every day that his staff knew would stay with him for the next year. what we got last night was donald trump saying i have the absolute right to take whatever classified documents i want. he said, i have the absolute right to show those classified documents to anybody i want. he said they become declassified when i decide they become declassified. this that's not the truth. that's certainly not the truth when he's out of office. he's just given jack smith and the prosecutors looking into this one admission after another admission after another admission. what else did he do? donald trump went back and

grabbed that "access hollywood" tape from 2016, dragged it to 2023, slapped it down, made it relevant. in his deposition he said, maybe it's a good thing. maybe it's fortunate that i'm a star. he said he was a star and that as a star, he could sexually abuse women. women let stars walk up and sexually abuse them. what did he say last night? last night he said, you know what, when you're rich, when you're a star, you do well in america in many different ways. his definition of doing well in america is being able to walk up to a woman, any woman, and sexually abuse her. he says, quote, they let you do it. so he's got january 6th that he

can't admit how badly he messed up there. he's elevating convicts to political prisoner status. he talked about the rigged election. he overlooks the fact and he wasn't pressed on it enough, i don't think, that 63 federal judges said he was lying, that his supreme court said he was lying, that arizona republicans and election officials who voted for donald trump said he was lying, that the cyber nerds who went out to arizona to try to rig the results for donald trump said he was lying, that georgia's governor, who was a full-on trumper, said he was lying. that the secretary of state, a republican trumper, said he was lying. four recounts in maricopa county

run by republicans, three recounts in georgia run by republicans. this guy, if he just looked at the numbers and if these republicans who somehow think he owned the libs last night because we're shocked, actually shocked at a guy who looks up to vladimir putin and actually embraces overturning the election, embraces convicts, embraces people who beat the hell out of cops, they're not owning the libs. they're owning middle class, working class suburban americans. they actually think that last night was good for donald trump, which shows you exactly why he can't win in the suburbs of atlanta, he can't win in the suburbs of philly, detroit or wisconsin. this guy is a doomed political

candidate. last night only dug his political grave even deeper. the question is, will republicans be able to save themselves from another loss authored by donald trump? that's the question for me that came out of last night. >> was there a single independent voter, many who were disillusioned or don't like joe biden, who was watching that last night and thought, i like what i see, i want to go back to that. all those voters in the suburbs you're talking about, i mean, he mocked e. jean carroll. he mocked her story. the audience laughed along with it. a very trump friendly audience that read more like a rally than a town hall. he said, quote, january 6th was a beautiful day, his supporters were there with love in his

hearts. he said he would empty prisons of a lot of people convicted of crimes on that day. he said it might not be the worst thing if we default on this debt ceiling question. garrett haake has a roundup of more of what the former president said last night. >> please welcome the front runner for the republican nomination, former president trump. >> reporter: overnight, former president trump, the republican front runner, showing voters he hasn't changed. mr. trump again pushing lies and conspiracy theory about the 2020 election he lost and going further in his support of people convicted of crimes related to the january 6th attack on the capitol. >> i am inclined to pardon many of them. i can't say for every single one, because a couple of them

probably they got out of control. i will say it would be a large portion of them. you know -- [ applause ] >> reporter: the former president also describing his supporters who attacked the capitol on that day, which left five people dead, this way. >> they were there with love in their heart. that was an unbelievable and a beautiful day. >> reporter: he refused to answer whether he'd back ukraine. >> can you say whether you want ukraine or russia to win this war? >> i want everybody to stop dying. >> reporter: russia invaded ukraine over a year ago and the u.s. has backed ukraine. on the economy, mr. trump down played the consequences of america defaulting on its debts. >> i say to the republicans out there, if they don't give you massive cuts, you're going to have to do a default. >> reporter: while he was president, republicans voted to raise the debt ceiling three

times. economists say defaulting could trigger a massive recession and lost jobs. pressed whether he would sign a federal abortion ban in the wake of the supreme court overturning roe v wade, mr. trump refused to say. >> president trump is going to make a determination what he thinks is great for the country. >> reporter: the audience seeming very supportive of trump, cheering and laughing throughout the event including when he continued to attack e. jean carroll. >> i have no idea who the hell -- she's a whack job. >> nbc's garrett haake reporting there. let's talk about the format. billed as a town hall, kaitlan collins tried to push back, but was steam rolled because donald trump was playing to a friendly

crowd. it was more like a rally than a town hall. >> town halls are a new hampshire staple. new hampshire voters are independent. it's a swing state. usually these candidates would get really thoughtful questions and even be pressed by the voters. you're right. she did what she could. but the audience members were made up of republicans and independents who have suggested they might vote republican in the future. every single person except for one said they voted for trump in 2020. these were already trump supporters last night in the room. they cheered and laughed along with him throughout the night even when he was deeply insulting to e. jean carroll and the moderator. it felt like a trump rally, not a town hall. those are the images being broadcast across the nation. a supportive crowd for an insurrectionist candidate for the presidency of the united

states. we all in the media need to learn how to grapple with him. it's hard to imagine too many swing voters being attracted to what they saw last night as he took extreme positions on abortion, guns, even down playing what they did to eliminate bump stocks while he was president and of course on ukraine and other matters as well. i doubt it helps him in 2024. >> and apologizing for nothing. saying the election was rigged. it was just a string of lies. let's go to new hampshire. vaughn hilliard is in manchester for us. what's the reaction up there today? >> reporter: what is telling about what last night was the extent to which that is the republican party today. that is one of the two major political parties today. it is going to be no different on saturday in iowa. donald trump is holding a rally

in des moines. it's no different than two months ago when donald trump was holding a rally in waco, texas, and called stormy daniels horse face and the crowd laughed. for donald trump, this is a part of continuing to hold onto what may be a third of the american electorate, but it is a strong third. you can say strong man, but for donald trump this is par for the course over the last 28 months here. chris sununu made his most direct, on camera, on the record remarks today, calling trump a wimp, bitter and weak and suggesting he may get into the presidential race, saying he would need to do so by this next month. he made it clear it was important for somebody else to make the case on the debate stage against donald trump, because what you saw last night was no remorse, no regret for

any of his past actions. when he was about mike pence about whether he felt the need to apologize to his former vice president, take a listen to that exchange. >> one person who was at the capitol that day, as you know, was your vice president, mike pence, who says that you endangered his life on that day. >> i don't think he was in any danger. >> mr. president, do you feel you owe him an apology? >> no. because he did something wrong. he should have put the vote back to the state legislatures and i think we would have had a different outcome. i really do. >> reporter: i had a conversation with some young republicans here in new hampshire this week. it's notable that one of them told me he remembers when his grandma first put on a rally when he was about 11 years old. he's now of voting age.

he said he still has his vote here. it's important context that for donald trump for the last eight years, he is the party elder and this is just a further example of the extent to which they see this man as their own future. >> he made clear at that event last night that nothing has changed and another trump term will be exactly like the first, if not worse. vaughn, thanks so much. a handful of donald trump's potential 2024 primary opponents reacted. >> there was no energy, there was no fire, there was no positivity. he looked weak, tired and like he was on the defensive and angry and bitter. i don't think anything he said shocked people. he's trying to play the he said/she said thing and twist everything around and not address the issue head on. it's defensive and weak.

no one said, you know what, i think i'm going to change my mind, i think i'm with him now. no. there was nothing new. it was the outrageous lies and aspects of himself. but it's a weaker, more defensive position than he's ever had. >> he had a weak pormgs and he's locked in the past. i think that was poor performance, a weak performance and he was locked in the past. >> former arkansas governor asa hutchinson there. chris christie tweeted, donald trump refused to say tonight that he wanted ukraine to win the war with russia, more proof that he continues to be putin's puppet. joining us now susan page and ab stoddard. anything redeeming from last night? >> i thought the most important

thing that happened was that former president trump, like president biden, want to make this election a choice, not a referendum. the worst news for biden would just to be judged on his presidency not in context of his opposition. donald trump is very happy to have this election be about him. that is precisely what the white house wants to have happen. that was one of the important things to look at for last night. >> ab, you talked about how biden will hide as a ubiquitous trump is normalized. when america is talking about biden, republicans win. when americans are talking about trump, democrats win. well, everybody's talking about trump today. this is a banner day for the white house, isn't it?

>> it's really hard, joe, this morning even to just digest what we must have looked like as a nation before our enemies and our adversarial nations as well as our allies overseas. i thought it was a very dark day. i thought it was appalling and terrifying. i'm actually glad eugene daniels said there is some fear in the white house that this is such an incredible threat after all these years when there was opportunity for republicans to move on from donald trump, when mitch mcconnell could have sealed his fate on february 13th of 2021 but did not and did not choose to convict him in the senate for inciting insurrection and trying to break the constitutional order. he leads a powerful cult of personality. you saw that in the audience

last night. i think the biden administration is really right to face this in a sober way. joe biden won in 2020 by 44,000 votes in three states, because the electoral college is how you become president. i think they would be very wise to take this threat incredibly seriously. i think it is also a positive note and a good wakeup call because many republicans want to move on from trump. they still are trying to make ron desantis happen. they still believe there's some kind of path forward. i think last night proved there is not. i think that for democrats, it's good for them to wake up. they believe that maybe an indictment will take trump down. i'm not sure we'll see a prosecution or indictment before next fall. everybody needs to take this threat incredibly seriously for

what it is and begin to face it head on. >> certainly the white house has suggested this is a race that they like, but they are aware of some vulnerabilities the current president has, including polls suggest his age is an issue and any incumbent would have problems with economic headwinds. often independent swing voters, particularly suburban women, some who broke for trump in 2016 and broke away from him in '20. watching trump's behavior, it wouldn't seem there would be much for independent suburban women to latch onto. >> you did see him try to back off a little bit on the issue of abortion and whether he would sign stricter federal limits on abortion. i thought that reflected a desire to keep the evangelicals

on his side without igniting the issue of access to abortion, which was devastating for republicans in the wake of the overturning of roe v wade. but to your point, yes, very little here that seemed designed to convince suburban women who have had concerns about him to come back into his camp. >> so you're writing this morning about the handling of donald trump by the media. this is not 2016. he's not a fresh, new idea. he's not a celebrity who might mix things up when he goes to washington. he's got a record now and he's fresh off leading an attempted coup against the united states government. so how to handle the man who is most likely to be the nominee in the republican party? >> well, i think cnn is probably looking back at their decision and their strategy for the town hall and wishing they had their

fact checker checking him in realtime, both on screen at home for the viewers on tv and then also on that stage. there was no way that kaitlan collins as the anchor and the moderator in that format could keep up with realtime fact checking, so they set her up for some insurmountable burden that she couldn't meet. that was a huge mistake. going forward, the media should make sure it is always noted that he tried to destroy constitutional order and that he has been accused of multiple crimes and as of a few days ago was found liable for sexual assault and abuse and made to pay $5 million in damages. i think the media has to tread

very carefully as they look at him as a normalized figure. he is not the candidate of 2016 or 2020, although i think in 2020 there was enough evidence that he was going to be far too dangerous to elect to a second term after january 6th and a two-month plot to stage a coup and the fact that last night he doubled down on everything. obviously he's far more of a threat than he was when he ran for reelection two years ago. what i see from last night is that the republican party is in his thrall. i think the potency of the abortion issue and the gun issue are going to materialize in larger turnout and energy and donations and door knocking in 2024 than they have in any election in the past.

>> a majority of republican primary voters say they're fine with what they saw last night. it will be interesting to see what happens if and when ron desantis decides to hop in. republican congressman george santos is back in washington this morning after he pleaded not guilty to a 13-count federal indictment in court. the charges include fraud and money laundering. stephanie gosk has the latest. >> reporter: george santos mobbed by cameras outside federal court moments after pleading not guilty to 13 federal charges. >> i'm going to fight the witch hunt. i'm going to take care of clearing my name and i look forward to doing that. >> reporter: he says he won't resign and intends to run for reelection. even posting on twitter moments after his indictment looking for campaign donations. house speaker kevin mccarthy who has not called on santos to resign made it clear his support would come to an end in the next

election. >> are you going to support him? >> reporter: federal prosecutors accuse santos of wire fraud, money laundering, making false statements to the house of representatives and theft of public funds. among the accusations he collected over $24,000 in new york unemployment benefits during the pandemic even though he was earning $120,000 from a company in florida. santos also allegedly used thousands of dollars in campaign contributions to pay for personal expenses like credit card payments and designer clothes, according to the indictment. did you take campaign donations and use that money to buy expensive suits? >> no, i did not. >> reporter: in the 2022 midterms, santos became the first openly gay republican elected to congress, but he ran on a made-up resume, including a college degree he never received and jobs he never had, openly admitting that some of it was fabricated.

>> did i embellish my resume? yes, i did. and i'm sorry. >> reporter: after the indictment was unsealed, residents in santos' district mostly split along party lines. >> he should not be in office. >> if he has to quit for lying, everybody else does and we're going to have an empty capitol. >> santos tried on the old trump defense of this being a witch hunt, not terribly convincing for a guy who lied about just about everything. >> he's charged with unemployment benefits fraud. this very week the house of representatives is slated to vote on a bill to help states recover fraudulent covid unemployment payments. george santos is a cosponsor of that bill, so he is charged with something he's legislating on. kevin mccarthy has not called for his resignation because he

cannot afford to lose that vote with margins so slim in the house. >> his fellow republicans want him gone. next, a panel of conservative judges next week will hear a case brought by groups seeking to ban the abortion pill mifepristone across the country. our next guest says this could be one of the most brazen attacks on americans' health yet. the president of the american medical association joins the table. american medical association joins the table. i've never been healthier. shingles doesn't care.

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advisors to the fda have unanimously endorsed making a birth control pill available without a prescription. this also would increase access to contraceptives. the fda is expected to make a final decision later this year. meanwhile the battle over the abortion pill mifepristone

will take center stage wednesday. the case is being brought by groups seeking to ban the pill nationwide. the biden administration expected to urge the court to overturn a previous court order that suspected the federal government's approval of that drug. joining us now is the president of the american medical association dr. resnik. it's good to have you with us this morning. let's talk about mifepristone first. what is the fate? how important is it to doctors and to women who use it? where do you think this ends? >> i was relieved the "new york times" gave us the opportunity to publish this op-ed. i can't sugar coat how dangerous a times this in medicine for this level of government interference we're seeing. physicians across the country

are deeply worried about this. you have this drug mifepristone, which is tremendously important for women. it's the major thing used for medication abortions. it's also the primary drug used for miscarriage management when somebody gets an infection or bleeding or complications that require assistance with treating a miscarriage. keeping that drug on the market is incredibly important for women's health. the other thing i wrote about in that editorial was this is scary for our entire drug approval system overall. we're facing a risk that if any part of this texas decision made by a judge with no experience in medicine or science goes forward, we fear a whole other train of these lawsuits on other medications that could be taken off the market just because some judge inserts their opinion on contraception or hiv drugs or

cancer drugs or anything else. >> there are still people who object to stem cells in research. there are people who object to mental health drugs. what is your concern broadly? are you worried some of this is going to happen given where we are right now? >> really relieved by what the supreme court did to step in. we have to watch what happens in the fifth circuit next week. we have briefed at every upper level low in this case because it is of such core importance to our drug approval system which has been around for 85 years in this country and has worked really well. >> the criminalizing of procedures doctors have done for generations now, kind of looking over their shoulder, thinking am i going to go to jail for helping this woman who has a complication in her pregnancy or

something like that. can you lay that out? people don't hear from your point of view what's actually happening. >> this is unprecedented, the level of government interference and the decision making that happens with doctors and patients together like we do every day. physicians are now imagining state legislators, state attorneys general, others sitting on their shoulder in those exam rooms. it's getting pretty crowded in those exam rooms with all these people second guessing. there are medical indications for abortion like when somebody has ectopic pregnancy or a complicated miscarriage. we are seeing situations where physicians and emergency departments and clinics around the country are literally having to call hospital attorneys when somebody who's sick and unstable presents right in front of them to say, do you think i can treat this person?

is a 30% chance of death enough to step in here? sometimes literally attorneys say, no you've got to wait until you have a 50% chance. we're beginning to see downstream consequences in these restrictive states across the country. heartbreaking stories from places like idaho, where obgyns who have practiced in this place for years are making decisions to abandon this place because they're too afraid to practice medicine or go to jail. these restrictive states are going to have fewer physicians because people are afraid. >> this increased scrutiny, the legal pressure, also the medical profession still grappling with burnout from the pandemic.

are people leaving the profession writ large? >> i really do worry about our workforce. we have seen burnout numbers going well into the 60s. we're seeing 1 in 5 physicians in this country saying they're likely to retire or do something else in the next years. wait times are already too long to see a physician. it is not a time when we want at the back end of that workforce pipeline to have people leaving. we know this level of government interference is one of the things getting people down, on top of administration things like prior authorization where health insurance plans make it difficult for patients to get the treatment they need. the number of things that are pushing that workforce out are

growing. >> when you think about the hour of federal regulation of drugs in the united states, has there been a previous time when political considerations or political debate has loomed so large in what the fda can do and the federal government? >> it's a great question. i have seen no precedent for anything like this where we literally have the threat of an individual judge in a district in texas saying, hey, i'm gone to overlook all the science that the fda looked at for a drug that was approved 23 years ago and just taken off the market. i've never seen anything like it. >> dr. resnik, the piece in the "new york times" op-ed is out now. it's jarring. it's eye-opening. president of the american medical association dr. jack resnik, jr., thanks so much. still ahead, democrats get a key vote back on capitol hill.

while senator dianne feinstein's return is so important to the party. also, a nato ally announces more military support for ukraine. y announces more military support for ukrain e. i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can dramatically relieve ra and psa symptoms, including fatigue for some. it can stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant.

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warriors by eight. with the ball, curry lets it fly. it's good! steph curry sends us to the halftime break with a rainmaker. >> best shooter who ever lived. steph curry with a 30-foot three-pointer to beat the halftime buzzer last night sending the warriors to the locker room with a double-digit lead over the lakers. the lakers also lost star center anthony davis, who left the game midway through with a head injury. davis was placed in a wheelchair and carted to a training room after feeling woozy. no mention of a concussion after an initial evaluation. game 6 tomorrow night in l.a., where the lakers are 5-0 this post season. you do get the sense they better win that game, because it's

unlikely the warriors are giving up a game 7 at home. >> curry has been so good and has won a few games on his own this post season, including the game 7 against sacramento last round. the lakers have been terrific. the lakers head coach did say afterwards he thought davis would be okay. they better finish it there and hope curry doesn't have a 50-pointer in his back pocket. >> the knicks kept their season alive. brunson was outstanding with 38 points. new york are down 3-2 as the teams head back to miami for game 6 tomorrow night. >> how do you feel about it? >> if brunson does what he did last night, if they get anything out of julius randle. miami is beatable. you win game 6. game 7 at the garden, anything

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feinstein of california returned to washington and cast votes in person yesterday, her first votes since february. she missed a total of 93 floor votes. arriving on capitol hill, she was greeted by senate majority leader chuck schumer, who delivered marks welcoming her back to the senate. in a statement, senator feinstein said she will be working with a lighter schedule as she continues to deal with side effects from shingles. today she's expected to attend a senate judiciary committee meeting to vote on judicial nominees that have been held up due to her absence. that's at the crux of the frustration of democrats, some who said she should step aside even because there is this long list of judges that without her vote, they cannot confirm. >> it gets harder to move those forward. dianne feinstein has been a groundbreaking female politician. she deserves honor and respect for that. but when you've only got 51

senators aligned with your side, as democrats have, you need every single vote. we've heard a few people in california and elsewhere calling for her to resign now at age 89. i think those calls are probably going to get stronger. this week is teacher appreciation week across the country. it comes as a shortage of educators nationwide is getting worse. the number of teachers leaving the profession now is at a record high. joining us, president of the national us now president of th national education association, becky pringle. she also is a middle school science teacher. it's great to have you back with us. and as we celebrate this teacher appreciation week, i think all of us can think of a whole bunch of teachers who have changed our lives. i think of teachers who are changing my kids' lives right now. we are so grateful for them. we need to hang onto them.

what is going on with this attrition among teachers leaving the field? >> it's good to be back with you, willie. happy teacher appreciation week to all of the teachers and honestly, all of the education support professionals and nurses and counselors, all of the caring adults in our schools that make the development and learning of our students possible. there's no question that this year we are focused on one word, more. when we talk about appreciation, we have to talk about more than just showing them appreciation. we have to talk about action. we have to talk about having appreciation more than just one day, more than just one week. it should be every day, all day every week of the year. that's because teachers are more than teachers, and they do so much more. you know, i taught science for over 30 years, and i taught middle level learners the wonders of science, and i can

tell you even then as a teacher i was standing for our students. so much more is expected of teachers today. we have to take action to make sure that they not only are staying in our classrooms but we bring more of our students into our classrooms as teachers. >> hey, becky, obviously we've had this conversation on teacher appreciation week the last couple of years talking about the after effects of the pandemic. and that's still very real. it seems like for so many teachers now the issue is of safety. we've obviously had a number of school shootings tragically in the last few months. talk to us what the teachers you talk to each and every day, how worried are they about their safety and the safety of their children because of the threat guns pose in classrooms. >> there's no question that has changed our schools and our communities. the reality that we're spending so much time on preparing students for assault weapons coming into their schools instead of focusing on their

instruction. you know, we're coming up on commemorating so many children and adults being killed in uvalde, and we know that that will impact not only that community but students and teachers all over this country as they think about the fact that they are not always safe are from assault rifles. so we are continuing our work to ensure that we pass legislation that is comprehensive, common sense, take assault rifles out of our schools and our communities that increase the background checks, that make sure that we are doing everything we possibly can to keep our students safe. >> yeah, becky pringle, let me just ask you, jonathan mentioned the pandemic that had such a big effect on teachers and students, my own son a teacher at a middle school dealt with virtual learning for those two years. are there any lessons from the pandemic that we should learn when it comes to public

education? >> oh, susan, there's so many lessons. first of all, we had the light shining on the inequities in this country, not only in the education system but in the health care system, in the housing system, in the economic system. we saw on full display those inequities that impacted our black and brown and indigenous communities the most. our students with disabilities, our students living in poverty. we saw they didn't have the tools they needed as they went to virtual learning. that's always been true. that was not new, just people were realizing that reality. as we continue to try to recover from the pandemic, we cannot take that light off of those inequities and we've got to invest in our public schools, invest in our communities, invest in our students. >> so becky, as we're talking about the pandemic here, dr. fauci gave an interview that

there are deleterious effects of the schools being closed so long. he said i'm not the one who closed the schools. i just gave my medical opinion the best i could. with the benefit of hindsight now, do you believe that schools were closed too long, now with we know young people tolerate covid relatively well, at least better than some and schools were some of the safest places in communities. should they have been open sooner? >> you know, willie, one of the things that i did in working with schools and educators and parents and community members all over this country, i said that as we go through a pandemic that no one understood or knew about or knew how to get through, that we needed to follow the science, as a science teacher that's where i start. we need to listen to the disease experts, infectious disease experts and then we need to come together to figure out what was best for our students. i actually visited a school in western pennsylvania with first lady dr. jill biden who is still

teaching, and that school was open in the spring of 2020, and the reason they were able to open is because they did all of those things that i said. as we look back on what we decided to do and as we look forward to what we needed to do, one thing is true, we have to accept our shared responsibility for the learning of our students. that's why we focus on community schools so they can get the health care and dentistry they need, they can get the mental health supports, which is a huge issue in our schools. we can make the schools the hub of a community in a powerful way, and we can close not just the academic gaps really, we have social and emotional gaps that our students are coming to us every day with, and we need to share that responsibility to give them what they need and what they deserve. >> as you say, we need to appreciate and support our teachers. we thank all of them. we're so grateful for them, especially on this teacher

appreciation week, including you, becky, for your 31 years of service as a teacher. thank you for being with us. we appreciate it. >> thanks, willie. it was good to be with you. >> good to see you. the president of the national education association, becky pringle. that does it for us this morning. we will be back here tomorrow morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. verage after a quick final break. atment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. mass general brigham -- when you need some of the brightest minds in medicine. this is a leading healthcare system with five nationally ranked hospitals, including two world-renowned academic medical centers. in boston, where biotech innovates daily

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