how is he embracing it while others watch it with fear? >> others tried to ignore it, some embrace it with fear, but mccarthy is embracing the calendar as an ally. this is our hard deadline, and president biden and democrats need to come back to the table because this is what we're sticking to. if they don't, he'll blame it on them. looking to the calendar and saying, "this is what we've done. we know what will happen if we miss the deadline. you have to negotiate, otherwise, peril will happen." >> polls suggest both parties would be blamed, but it is particularly worrisome for a president running for re-election. staff talks continue today. alexi mccammond, thank you. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this friday morning and all week long. have a good weekend, everybody. "morning joe" starts right now. why did you take those documents with you when you left the white house? >> i had every right to under the presidential records act. i was there, and i took what i took. it gets declassified.

biden, on the other hand, he has 1850 boxes. he had boxes sent to chinatown, where they don't speak even english in the chinatown we're talking about. >> i have to stop you right there. >> talk about us, just so you understand, i had every right to do it. i didn't make a secret of it. >> when it comes to your documents, did you ever show those classified documents to anyone? >> not really. i would have the right to. by the way, they were -- >> what do you mean not really? >> not that i can think of. let me tell you, i have the absolute right to do what i want with them. i have the right. >> former president trump facing new legal and political fallout following that cnn town hall. we'll take a look at the comments that may have stood out to prosecutors, as some republicans now voice concern over remarks donald trump made. including those. >> oh, my gosh. we're following the surge at the southern border as restrictions known as title 42 came to an end just hours ago. we'll have a report from texas and speak with the secretary of

homeland security live in a bit. plus, a debt ceiling meeting between president biden and top congressional leaders is postponed. what that means for the looming debt crisis. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." with us this morning, the host of "way too early," "politico's" jonathan lemire. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. the host of msnbc's "inside with jen psaki," jen psaki. she is a former white house press secretary. joe, let's go back to the comments that donald trump made at the town hall about the mar-a-lago documents, invoinvok inaccuracy, the presidential records act and again saying, quote, i took what i took. he says, i took the classified documents with me to mar-a-lago. maybe i showed them to some people. i don't remember. but he says, i certainly had the right to. laying out a trail here, as jack smith and others prosecute this case about classified documents.

>> you know, "politico's" jack shafer had a message for all of us concern about the cnn town hall meeting. it was, stop whining and get over it. this guy has put himself in more legal jeopardy than ever before. jack shafer's point was right. on this point, he said, i can do whatever i want to do with these classified documents, which, of course, is false. they've become declassified the second i take them. remember, he was saying, if i even think they're declassified, they become declassified. >> yes. >> sounds like a superpower dr. evil had out of "austin powers" or anything. it'll hurt him legally and also politically, where he says, i can do whatever i want with classified documents. what does that sound like? i can do whatever i want to do because i'm a star with women, he says, where he says he can sexually abuse women because he's been a star. he said that.

fortunately or unfortunately there in the deposition. he doubled down on the "access hollywood" tape. all of that, all of that is obviously going to hurt him. also, he exposed himself, most likely, to another defamation suit from e. jean carroll because he can't help himself. it's probably going to cost him another 3, 4, $5 million, because a jury of his peers, this is straightforward, he defamed her once again. yeah, so that town hall meeting ended up being costly for a lot of people. it'll be especially costly politically and going to be costly economically for donald trump because -- and legally in a criminal sense because i think he gave jack smith just what he wanted. so i hope getting a couple of people in the audience who were laughing and cheering when he insulted the host, when he insulting e. jean carroll, i hope that was worth it for him. it's going to cost him a lot.

>> you know, he's operated with such impunity over the course of his adult life, and he still operates with that mindset. now, it's caught up to him, beginning with e. jean carroll. he has the indictment in new york city. jack smith two investigations. what's going on in georgia, we'll hear some charges come down this summer from the d.a. in fulton county. nbc's garrett haake took a look for us at the legal peril donald faces, in part because of what he said the other night on cnn. >> former president donald trump. [ applause ] >> reporter: former president trump's first televised town hall of the 2024 campaign, potentially creating new legal and political challenges for the republican front runner. with an attorney for e. jean carroll telling "the new york times" she may sue mr. trump for defamation again over his latest attacks. >> i have no idea who this woman -- this is a fake story, made up story. i have no idea who the hell --

she's a whack job. >> mr. president -- >> reporter: two days after mr. trump was found liable for sexually abusing ms. carroll in the '90s and defaming her in his denials. legal experts tell nbc news mr. trump may have complicated his own defense in the special counsel investigation into his handling of classified documents. appearing to contradict his lawyers' claims that documents got to his florida home by accident. >> i had every right to do it. i didn't make a secret of it. >> garrett haake reporting there. then, of course, there's the political backlash to that town hall, not just from democrats. speaking to reporters yesterday, a handful of republican senators rejected trump's positions on issues like the war in debt cei characterization of the january 6th insurrection, on what he called a, quote, beautiful day. >> does it worry you that he is leading as the presidential candidate? >> i don't intend to support him for the republican nomination. >> who do you want to support?

>> i haven't decided yet, but it won't be him. >> what's the reason for you not supporting him? >> where do i begin? >> we as republicans aren't going to win unless we can convince independents in swing states why we're better than the mess that we've got now. and if you can't do that, i think you're not very articulate at what we should be saying. i think the american public is confused. you couldn't have more to work with than what the biden administration has dished up. and, yet, we're here pivoting on it being who has the right message. we should have the right message, clearly needs to be aimed at independents in the middle. >> i think that, currently, the leader of the republican party is ron desantis. until ron desantis gets in this race, everything we do to talk about president trump, and quite frankly other candidates, is just premature. >> are you ruling out endorsing

president trump? >> i've said that what i'm going to do is look at tim scott, who i think is going to be running. >> if you're listening on the radio, that was todd young, mike braun of indiana, and other republicans speaking out against donald trump. we've heard some of this the last couple days from republicans on capitol hill, mostly from the senate, condemning a lot of what donald trump said and sort of wish casting ron desantis as the leader of the republican party. i guess we'll have to wait and see because we've learned this lesson the last eight years or so. we'll see if trump muscles desantis out of the way and everyone falls in line again. >> they have the experience of losing in '17, '18, '19, '20, '21, '22. especially in '22, gene robinson, where biden made historic gains. once again underestimated as a

president going into the first midterm electionelections. he did better than any other president since 1934 when it came to governorships, for instance. he outperformed everywhere. so much of that has to do with, well, joe biden got a lot of things done, but also donald trump. i'm going to keep saying it, going to keep saying it as a "national review" writer said before the '22 election, when voters are talking about donald trump, democrats win. when voters are talking about joe biden, republicans win. donald trump goes out and he does something like that, which is horrifying to so many people, well, yeah, that also -- i guarantee you that's the best the biden campaign has felt since they announced. because he reminds everybody, everybody, with every tweet, with every performance on tv like that, every time he says he can sexually assault a woman because he's a star, every time

he says he can do what he wants to do with classiied documents, every time he kisses up to vladimir putin, every time he says he'll end the ukrainian war in one day, every time he says he is going to pardon convicts that beat the hell out of cops, every time he says that january 6th was a beautiful day, every time he says that the election was rigged when the overwhelming majority of americans disagree with him on all these things, that is a huge win for biden. that is a huge win for democrats. you know, trump doesn't care that he is damaging the republican party. he never has, never will. his most intense supporters are just clueless still on this matter, even after all the losses. >> yeah, some republicans act as if donald trump is ever going to care about the republican party or the future of the republican party. he doesn't care about the republican party. he cares about donald trump.

some of those senators, fortunately, have realized that. you know, right after the debate, president biden sent out a fundraising tweet. the first line was, "you want four more years of that?" >> yeah. >> which was perfect. i mean, it was absolutely true. you just saw what you would get for four years, donald trump perhaps worst than the last four years of donald trump. you're right, that he does seem to have further incriminated himself on a bunch of levels. we should -- where to begin with the fact-checking? no, joe biden did not have 1,850 boxes of documents in some chinatown where they don't speak english. it's completely made up. but again -- >> oh, gene, can i interject quickly on that point, too?

since donald trump won't say the truth, won't tell the truth, the difference between joe biden and donald trump, between mike pence and joe biden, is joe biden and mike pence volunteered, "hey, we found some documents. you guys want to come get it?" donald trump never did that. they had to find out. they had to go down there with people on the inside telling them what he had, and then he lied, obstructed justice, and continued lying about keeping the documents. yeah, there's that. it doesn't matter how many boxes mike pence had. it doesn't matter how many boxes joe biden had. >> right. >> the fact is, when they found 'em, they called the feds and said, "hey, come get these." >> right. donald trump did completely the opposite. he obstructed for a year, hiding documents. gave a few back and said he had given everything back and he hadn't. there's no comparison really. so we'll see how all the legal

processes go and where that leaves us when we get closer to the election. again, it did show with that very pro-trump audience at the town hall, it showed that he is still the dominant figure in the party. where is ron desantis? what is he doing? what is he saying? will he get in the race at all? if he does, what are his prospects while trump is sort of getting the old band together? >> just in case our audience is confused by donald trump invoking chinatown all the time, that's where some of the -- chinatown and washington, d.c. in an office is where some of the boxes were stored. donald trump and others present it as something nefarious connected to the chinese government or something. it's chinatown in washington, d.c. jen, you were there with joe biden when he ran against donald trump in 2020. obviously, a little bit of a different thing here in 2024. because when you all were running, donald trump had not yet led an attempted coup

against the government. january 6th had not yet happened. all those things we now have to deal with and are in the equation. from your point of view, from talking to your old friends who are now in the white house or working on the campaign, how is president biden, how is his team looking at this race differently than the previous one against donald trump? >> well, such a good question, willie. that's what it's all about. first of all, you've heard the white house team, my former colleagues there, preview kind of what some of the messages are going to be. competence versus chaos, right? which basically means, look, joe biden is being president. you can like him. you cannot like him politically. he is trying to do the best job he can possibly do and work on the issues you care about. that over there is crazy town, right? that's chaotic, too much for everybody. what we saw at the town hall, and i think if you're in the white house right now, this is how you take it in, is a lot of the chaos, the crazy, that's just too much over there. elections are often, willie, about how people feel and how

people feel in the country. this is a bit different now because, of course, yes, there are potential additional indictments. there's already one. but it's also about the stakes of a second term and how much worse that could possibly be. then you're looking at an untethered trump, an untethered trump who is not going to abide by any rules whatsoever. we saw some of that in the town hall. we should default. maybe i'm rooting for putin. all of the insane things he said about democracy. that i think is going to be part of their message, too, the stakes of a second term and how it is worst than a first. >> yeah, and, you know, jonathan lemire, first of all, congratulations on the celtics. survived again the other day. >> huge. >> matt whitlock, who worked for mitch mcconnell, worked for the republican party, he's worked for an awful lot of people inside washington, d.c., and, you know, he's a partisan republican. i just mean that. he is a tough fighter for the republican party. this is what he said after this

performance of trump's the other night. trump's performance tonight had plenty of fun fodder for his biggest fans, but it was toxic nuclear waste for the moderates and independents he and republicans should be winning. that just sums up the night. yeah, people inside there love that donald trump was -- and i'll say this. you look at twitter. i'm sorry, it's kind of funny, right? these people think they're getting the best of, quote, the libs. oh, the libs are melting down if they say donald trump shouldn't go around saying that he can sexually assault people. oh, the libs are melting down because he says putin is a great guy, et cetera. no, libs aren't melting down. libs are just saying that maybe that shouldn't be broadcast to millions and millions and millions of americans. but it ends up damaging them time and time again.

as matt said, it is nuclear waste for republicans. you go back and see what i've said over the past year. i've been saying to republicans time and time again, you can win next year's election. you're not going to do it with donald trump. it's a clear and concise election. that's what every republican, every republican with half a brain about politics is thinking. when you look at '22, you look at the disaster that was for republicans, because when donald trump got involved, almost every time, republicans lost. >> what independent, swing voter or undecided voter said, that's my guy? particularly the suburban women voters who decided the last few elections. so much of what trump said seemed to be repulsive to them and certainly wouldn't come back to him the next time around. to further jen's point, if another republican were to emerge as the nominee, the

dynamics would change dramatically. the white house from the beginning said they believe trump will be there for the republicans in the end, and they like their chances in this rematch. for all the reasons we've talked about, and it allows them, katty, to skirt over the vulnerabilities the incumbent president has. whether it's concerns with his age, the southern border with title 42 lifting. joe biden is vulnerable. polling suggests that americans aren't totally sold. but they feel like the town hall the other night shows them they can rerun the 2020 campaign and say, look, look at that, you don't want that. my question to you is, is that enough? is it enough for joe biden simply to not be donald trump? is that, in itself, a ticket to another four years? >> in my conversations with the white house, they're trying hard not to crow about the fact it is most likely donald trump who they're going to be running against, and not ron desantis, who they thought could bring in a broader appeal of

independents. yeah, they will also say, we know the playbook. we ran this in 2020. we beat him in 2020. and we don't think very much has changed. does it allow them to skirt over the elephant in the room, which is the age issue, which seems to show up in polling, however fair or unfair it is, it shows up in polling much more as a negative for joe biden than it does for donald trump? no, they also realize they have to address that, in the ways they present the president out on the campaign trail, in the way they're trying to boost kamala harris' numbers so we can do the heavy lifting during the campaign, so she can reassure voters that she is a viable alternative were something to happen to joe biden. they're conscience of that, but they look at the numbers. look at the three states, michigan, arizona, and georgia. the republican nominee will have to take all three joe biden only has to get one to get to the magic 270. look what happened in the town

hall. you wonder about the suburbs of atlanta, the suburbs of phoenix, the suburbs of detroit, and you have to think, you know, how does a performance like that go down in those places? >> i mean, you're exactly right. the suburbs of atlanta. the suburbs of philly, they're gone. they're gone. if it's donald trump, they're gone. if it is ron desantis, it's up for debate. suburbs of detroit, gone. milwaukee, gone. phoenix, gone. i mean, that's the dilemma that the republican party is once again facing. they have a guy who may do well in the primary, who is going to lose in the general election. i just want to circle back, gene. there was an abc news/"washington post" poll that came out this past weekend. you talk about -- some of the obama people would talk about democratic bedwetting. all the beds in washington, d.c. were wet after that poll came

out. >> yeah. >> just the fear and loathing, the tears, the weeping, the gnashing of teeth, what else can i throw onto that pile over one poll? yesterday, we showed a poll that showed joe biden at 43% among adults. i think alex said, if you want to do apples to apples, he was at 47% among registered voters. 47%. the poll last week had him at 38%. it also had him beating donald trump in a head-to-head matchup. i wonder if we're going to hear about that for a week. i wonder about this, the economist/yougov poll showing joe biden's approval rating at 48%. disapprove it 46%. listen, maybe that's an outlier. maybe it is an outlier like the poll last week was an outlier. i'm just wondering if we're going to hear about this poll now going into the weekend with people weeping and crying, or whether democrats will say, wait a second, you know what? this goes up, this goes down.

>> i know. >> sometimes bide season at 38%. two days later, he's at 43%. one day later, 48%. i mean, this is going to be a close race nationally. everything we're hearing about, if joe biden wins by four percentage points he is going to lose still the electoral college. no, no, no, no, no. national polls don't matter. if you want to know who is going to win, and just add in on this, gene, go to the suburb of atlanta, the suburbs of philly. >> right. >> trump ain't winning there. he's just not winning there after performances like this. maybe another republican candidate could win easily there. donald trump will lose. >> yeah, i absolutely agree. i don't see those suburban voters going for donald trump. the other night certainly hurt trump among those voters opposed to helping him. like i always say, god gave

democrats hands so they could wring them. again, they're wringing the hands. over that one poll, you know, "the washington post" poll was very good, but every good pollster has an outlier from time to time, and that's starting to look like an outlier poll. we also should understand that polls are snapshots, literal snapshots of a day or a few days in time. things change. they tend to regress to the mean. yes, joe biden is very likely to beat donald trump, i think more marginally after the other night than less likely. >> we shall see. we will pick up this conversation in a bit. we have a busy morning ahead. homeland security secretary alejandro mayorkas will be our guest this morning as

republicans ramp up criticism of the biden administration. title 42 lifted a few hours ago. a lot to talk to secretary mayorkas about. plus, a 24-year-old marine is expected to face charges today in the wake of a new york city subway choke hold death. we'll get legal analysis of the case. also, a debt ceiling meeting between president biden and congressional leaders is postponed. we'll have the latest on where those talks stand this morning as the clock continues to tick. you're watching "morning joe" on a beautiful friday morning. we're coming right back.

you can't always avoid migraine triggers like your next period. qulipta® can help prevent migraines. you can't always prevent what's going on outside... ...that's why qulipta® helps what's going on inside. qulipta® gets right to work. in a 3-month study, qulipta® significantly reduced monthly migraine days... ...and the majority of people reduced them by 50 to 100%. qulipta® blocks cgrp-- a protein believed to be a cause of migraines. qulipta® is a preventive treatment for episodic migraine. most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and tiredness. learn how abbvie could help you save on qulipta®. from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated

against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ - this is our premium platinum coverage map and this is consumer cellular's map. - i don't see the difference, do you? - well, that one's purple. - [announcer] get the exact same coverage as the nation's leading carrier. starting at $20.

consumer cellular. heading on a family trip? nah, sorry son, prices are crazy, [son deflates] awh, use priceline. they have package deals no one else has. [son inflates] we can do it! ♪go to your happy price♪ ♪priceline♪ the real secret to success? better sleep. purple is different. soft and firm, in all your right places. the gelflex grid keeps you cool, while sleep does it's scientifically proven thing. rise sharper, happier, an overnight success. if you care about clean air, you should know president biden's happier, infrastructure laws are reducing pollution and creating clean energy jobs. more solar. more wind. made in america.

tell joe biden to keep working for more jobs and less pollution. only at vanguard you're more than just an investor you're an owner. that means that your priorities are ours too. our interactive tools and advice can help you build a future for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. if you're looking for a medicare supplement insurance plan that's smart now... i'm 65. and really smart later i'm 70-ish. consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. with this type of plan, you'll know upfront about how much your care costs. which makes planning your financial future easier. so call unitedhealthcare today to learn more about the only plans of their kind with the aarp name. and set yourself and your future self up with an aarp medicare supplement plan from unitedhealthcare. the man seen on video

putting jordan neely into a choke hold on a subway train will be arraigned in manhattan on a count of second degree manslaughter. penny said neely was aggressively threatening passengers when he stepped in. neely had a history of mental illness. an onlooker said the choke hold lasted 15 minutes. authorities haven't commented on that allegations. three minutes of the altercation was captured on video. neely's death was ruled a homicide as a result of that choke hold. in a statement to nbc news, penny's lawyers defended his actions on the subway saying, quote, we're confident once all the facts and circumstances surrounding this tragic incident are brought to bear, mr. penny will be fully absolved of wrongdoing. it's led to days of protests throughout the city as advocates call for penny's arrest. joining us now, danny cevallos. danny, this is a big talker here

in new york city. front page of "the daily news." penny is a marine who faces this charge today. what's your sense of how this plays out? he says this man walked on the train, started threatening people, said "i don't care if i live or die," and he felt like something bad was about to happen. he put him in the choke hold that ultimately killed him. >> here are a couple points i expect to see in the defense of this case. i think they could be successful. i think you might see an acquittal here. first, in new york, when it comes to self-defense, the state has to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. what that means, a defendant in new york is not only presumed innocent, they're presumed justified when they use deadly force because the state has the burden to disprove it. in addition, the marine here can be mistaken in his use of force as long as he actually perceived a threat, and this may be tricky for him, the use of force was reasonable. there's always a reasonable element. part three, he's a marine. it may not play the same as it would in, say, pensacola, but it

is something. it is something that a jury will -- it'll loom large in this case because he is someone who served his country. on the video, this is another point, you see other strangers, not friends of this defendant, but strangers helping out. if i'm on the defense, i call those people. everybody in that subway to say, why were you also assisting? well, they probably, you can infer they also perceived some threat and thought some use of force was necessary. finally, and this is the biggest one, for any new yorker, the key here is going to be getting people on that jury who ride the subway. i ride the subway, i have for years. i've seen it change over time, pre-pandemic, during the pandemic, and now post-pandemic. you probably will hear some version of this argument in closing. the d.a. here indicted penny. they should have indicted themselves for the way the subways have deteriorated over the years. the time it took for police to respond to this meant that people riding the subway have to

take matters into their own hands. i think that's probably some version of an argument you're going to hear in closing if this case makes it to trial. >> i think what you heard from some new yorkers, many new yorkers, is, yes, they've maybe seen this scene play out in their own experience on the subway, but why 15 minutes on the choke hold? why did he have to take it to the point where it killed the man, when he clearly was already subdued? >> exactly right. that is weakness. that's a strength for the prosecution. it'll be the reasonable. they'll have to disprove or essentially prove -- they have the burden -- to those his use of the choke hold was unreasonable, given, and the jury instructions say this, given what the defendant knew. that's going to be key. expect them to seize on that. this defendant, they'll argue, knew as a marine that his choke hold was a form of deadly force. he knew because of his training that what he was doing was the same as using a weapon. that's an argument they're going to make because that's what it says in the jury instructions. the jury instructions guide the entire case. they're going to have to make

that argument to the jury. believe me, they're going to point out, they'll use use of force experts or both sides, but the state will use them to say this choke hold is something he was trained in and he knew that it was deadly. >> danny, it is so interesting. there are a couple of different things going on here that you've brought out, that you say will make a big difference. one is the fact that strangers, as you said, were helping. the george floyd case, of course,telling the cops to stop, to get up. other instances, people say, "you're killing him." in this case, you start with strangers helping. there will be a sliding scale, won't there? if he had held him in a choke hold for three or four minutes, it's far different than if they proved it was 15 minutes. again, that just, again, is excessive. again, it all comes down to what the jury ends up thinking. but talk about these two elements that you've already brought up and how important

that's going to be to jury members who, even jury members who say, man, it's really, really bad in the subway system right now, and have their own personal experiences. that's not going to lead them to saying, yeah, but he could have held him for 15 minutes, even after he was unresponsive. >> exactly right. that's why the video here is going to be key. we saw some of that a minute ago. you see him continuing to struggle. what's interesting is we see this kind of analysis a lot in police use of force cases. we look at different officers when, for example, you see a video of an officer, several officers jumping on one suspect. there is a use of force analysis there. police are trained. for example, they're not trained to say, this has to be a fair fight, one officer against one suspect. they're trained to help out their brother and sister officers, and all participate in subduing a suspect. again, key here is going to be every witness on that train, especially the people who assisted in subduing this

person. if they say at minute 14 that he was still posing a threat, he was still flailing, i don't know that that's reasonable based on what i'm seeing in the video, but if they testify to that under oath, and they're strangers, they have no interest in helping out this defendant, that's going to make a big difference. even though at the outlet, 15 minutes seems like a long time. you can imagine if someone poses a threat that long. by the way, if i'm defending this case, i dovetail that into the argument of, where was the nypd in 15 minutes? what is going on in new york city that someone has to subdue a dangerous suspect or dangerous person for 15 minutes without the help of the nypd? that's the strategy i would use to use that to judo move that, take the strength and make it a weakness if i can. >> you're right, this case has resonated with new yorkers. it speaks to the changes in the city and the subway coming out of the pandemic, the rise of seemingly visible mental illness, as well as some crime.

i mean, everyone takes the subway, the f-train, that's my local train. >> it comes right here. >> to this building. so to the point, there are some people there who are trying to help subdue the assailant, but at least one person is yelling at him to stop. look, neely is defecating, a sign that you're using too much force here. >> sure. >> i'm sure that'll be central to what the prosecution will use to counter the other arguments. >> the way i'd argue that as the defense, just because there's some -- someone watching and video taping and they have an opinion about the force, they're not as well situated as somebody in the mmelee, involved in the wrestling, involved in the subduing process, who is involved and may be able to better perceive the threat. the mere comments from people taking video, i would argue, isn't as strong as people actually involved. that's the key, it's going to be the other people in that video assisting with the subduing. if they testify, and the way i'd

walk them through testimony is, you don't have any prior relationship with this defendant. you don't have any interest in helping him. no, i was just a stranger on the subway. well then, what did you perceive at minute 13, 14, and even 15? if they say this guy was still a threat, he was clawing, i don't know, maybe they saw -- there's no indication there was any weapon, but if they can articulate any kind of threat, then that is going to go a long way. then you retreat to the point that the state has the burden here. not just any burden, but to disprove self-defense justification beyond a reasonable doubt, the highest burden we have in the law. >> daniel penny expected to be arraigned in manhattan criminal court today. he said he was acting in self-defense to protect the people on the train. we'll hear from prosecutors that he acted with excessive force. legal analyst danny cevallos, thank you very much. appreciate it. the must-read opinion pages up next, including one from gene titled, "what does the gop have

on biden? a whole lot of nothing." gene explains when we come right back. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's one less thing to think about while traveling. hiv pills aren't on my mind. a quick change in my plans is no big deal. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection-site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. every other month, and i'm good to go. ask your doctor about every-other-month cabenuva.

(man) what if my type 2 diabetes takes over? (woman) what if all i do isn't enough? and i'm good to go. or what if i can do diabetes differently? (avo) now you can with once-weekly mounjaro. mounjaro helps your body regulate blood sugar, and mounjaro can help decrease how much food you eat. 3 out of 4 people reached an a1c of less than 7%. plus people taking mounjaro lost up to 25 pounds. mounjaro is not for people with type 1 diabetes or children. don't take mounjaro, if you're allergic to it, you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. stop mounjaro, and call your doctor right away, if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, vision changes, or diabetic retinopathy. serious side effects may include pancreatitis and gallbladder problems. taking mounjaro with sulfonylurea or insulin raises low blood sugar risk. tell your doctor if you're nursing, pregnant,

or plan to be. side effects include nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea which can cause dehydration and may worsen kidney problems. (woman) i can do diabetes differently with mounjaro. (avo) ask your doctor about once-weekly mounjaro. wake up, achievers. you're making the most of every hour of your life. except the hours that you're sleeping. so why do we leave so much untapped potential on the table? this is a next level bed, for a next level you. my circadian rhythm is kicking your circadian rhythm's butt! it's not a competition. i know, but i'm still winning! so, it is a competition. of course. save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add an adjustable base. only at sleep number.

what is a quid pro quo? what are documents showing alleging bribery there and more? what do you see? >> again, that is a difficult thing to prove. with. >> i know republicans said the smoking gun were these financial records that you were able to subpoena and got your hands on. they show some of the president's relatives were paid more than $10 million from foreign sources between 2015 and 2017. and your party, the republican investigators, say that's proof of influence pedaling by hunter and james, but that's just your suggestion. you don't actually have any facts to that point. you've got some circumstantial evidence. the other thing is, of all those names, the one person who didn't profit is -- there's no evidence that joe biden did anything illegally. >> yeah, not at all. that's just a few moments from

fox news. also, "the wall street journal" editorial yesterday, "the biden family business." we always hear the biden crime family, the biden this, biden that. "wall street journal" editorial page had "the biden family business." they went through how biden's family members made money. this is shocking to people on fox news, the trump right, because this is something that donald trump and his family would never do, other than $2 billion, $3 billion here or there. they did it out of office, just like the bidens did this out of office. again, talk about the scale of what they're talking about with the scale of what happened there. this sounds like, of course, what happened with the clintons and all the investigations into the clinton foundation. we heard about that for yo year and years. the end of the day, all much to do about nothing. this is the end of the "wall street journal" editorial page, which has gone after the hunter biden issue very strongly. they conclude by saying, there

is not a smoking gun here. but there's smoke, so keep investigating. i mean, come on. this -- this is so much like the durham investigation. i have people who call me every day, right? will call me every day, will call me on january 7th, "oh, yeah, well, you know, that thing that happened at the capitol yesterday was bad, but why won't the press talk about hunter biden's laptop?" tell me about it. tell me about it. tell me about -- talk about the illegalities. then you say to them, "well, if hunter did something wrong, he should go to jail. that's how america works. when he goes to jail, democrats won't try to undermine the american judicial system." well, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. for some reason, there's a different standard with republicans. for some reason, they yell, "lock 'em up," lock everybody

up, political opponents up, except don't lock donald trump and his family up, when what they do is significantly worse. anyway. again, "wall street journal" editorial page concludes in their biden family business editorial, there is not a smoking gun. we heard steve dcey say the same thing, there is not a smoking gun. nothing with joe biden here either. again, they keep generating this. oh, one other thing, too, that's very important for these anti-biden people. i don't know if you knew this or not. joe biden fell off a bike. he did. now, donald trump tried to overthrow american democracy, but joe biden fell off a bike. when joe biden is tired, sometimes, you know, he is stuttered his entire life, sometimes his words get slurred together. he doesn't do very well.

but donald trump, donald trump, he tried to overthrow american democracy and just got found guilty of sexually assaulting a woman, and said in the deposition people like him have had the right to do that for, quote, millions of years. so there you go. gene, all of this nonsense from durham, who just absolutely -- a guy people used to respect just humiliated himself, trying to prove the fbi was corrupt. one more, "we're going to own the libs" turning into a self-own. this brings us, though, to your latest column. you write this, in part, the leading candidate for the 2024 gop presidential nomination, donald trump, facing felony charges in manhattan, a civil verdict holding him responsible for sexual abuse, and the possibility of soon being hit with more state and federal

charges. republicans would love to be able to tar biden with at least an appearance of illegality. so far, however, biden has had every right to perform the "dirt off your shoulder" gesture that barack obama borrowed from jay-z. the gop has come up with a whole lot of nothing. we saw that on fox news. >> yeah. >> again, gene, we saw it in "the wall street journal" editorial that has written extensively about joe biden, the hunter biden laptop. even after this comer investigation that was going to be so devastating to the biden, quote, crime family, they say, there's no smoking gun. >> yeah, there's no smoking gun. and i don't know, there's absolutely no smoke anywhere near joe biden. there may be smoke near hunter biden. if there is, if he is guilty of something, then he should face

justice. but the central allegation of influence pedaling that they were essentially selling not just access to biden when he was vice president but the suggestion that he was taking some actions favorable to people who were giving money to other members of the family or who were employing other members of the family, it's completely -- there is absolutely not a shred of evidence, as "fox and friends "pointed out. if you lost "fox and friends," you've really got nothing. there is nothing there. we saw the durham investigation, which was an embarrassment. the comer investigation, so for, is a veryembarrassment. they're going to keep digging this hole. when you're in one, stop digging, but they're going to

keep digging. they're not going to really find anything because it's not the biden crime family. joe biden has been a public servant for half a century. we've been watching him. we know him. we see him. even criticize him on a lot of levels if you want to politically, but this is just -- there's just nothing there. >> jen, this idea of a biden crime family, like they're the gambinos or something, has certain resonance within a media bubble. that's why certain members of congress, in the house in particular, talk about it. they hear it from podcasts and tv shows and wings of their party. was it something you in the white house ever felt like you had to address? did you ever feel there was a problem there? will we hear about it from this white house? >> i think if there is -- when there is a conclusion of the investigation into hunter, they'll have to say something. but i think what's important to remember here is, to echo gene, one, not just comer, but jim

jordan has overseen the weaponization on the government. he promised dozens of whistleblowers. it's may, nothing. on the biden front as a human being, and the president has spoken to this, hunter had a public -- he wrote a book about it -- struggle with drug addiction. by the way, something millions of american families have dealt with. he made some terrible choices that he outlines in detail in that book. as everybody here said, if he broke the law and did something that warrants steps, they are not going to stand in the way of that. but at the same time, there are things we know about this. he's been public about that. he said he made mistakes. he was battling drug addiction for years, which i think is an important component of all of this. because the notion that it is, like, some nefarious, you know, crime gambino family for 50 years is just ludicrous. if there was something to pop up, the republicans and comer and others would have found it by now. it's may.

>> there certainly is an expectation, joe, and i have new reporting on this, that the decision about whether hunly chd is probably coming in the next few weeks. there is no war room set up, but they know it'll be an issue one way or another. either the son of the president will be indicted or he won't. if he's not, the republicans will say the fix was in, the doj was bias. they know this will be a headache, but they also feel it's one they can manage. they point, first of all to jen's point, to hunter biden being forward with his addiction history. a lot of families know addiction. voicemails meant to be a political attack on biden, where he talks about how much he loves his son and is worried about him, expressed care for him. that resonates with a lot of americans. they can point to the fact that trump's family seems to have benefitted from his presidency.

trump himself has been indicted once, more coming. they felt most of this was known to voters in the 2020 election, and it didn't bother them. joe biden was still -- earned their vote. >> he talked about it. donald trump in the first debate when he appeared to be in a roid rage, totally out of control, he attacked hunter biden. even the most far right commentators saying it was a low blow and to stay away from family members who have problems. you're right, you know, there's so many americans who have family members, have children, have loved ones, have parents, who had addiction problems. so this, again, unless there is a smoking gun, and "the wall street journal" says there's not a smoking gun, fox news says there's not a smoking gun, this appears to be, again, continuing to be just this sort of obsession, this white whale for trumpers in the media.

before we go to break, i want to talk about the irish, and i want to talk about the british. let's talk about the irish first. jonathan lemire, your celtics holding on. talk about it. >> wow. >> yeah, they didn't look good there for a while. their best player, jayson tatum, had probably the worst game of his career for about 44 minutes last night. then he took over down the stretch. we're seeing one of the several threes. he had four threes in the last four minutes of the game. celtics were facing elimination, but they win on the road in philadelphia. what has been a very up and down series. both teams having flashes of brilliance and other moments of real struggle. now, we have a game seven on sunday. celtics/sixers, a great, great rivalry. they'll get the winner of that heat/knicks series in the eastern conference finals. >> joe, that last night was setting up for tatum to be an infamous performance, where he went 2 for 15 or something like that. they would have lost the series on the road. he just decided that wasn't going to happen. he had three points going to the fourth quarter.

scored 16 points in the fourth quarter. totally flipped the story. now, that's a devastating loss for the sixers at home. they had a chance to move to the eastern conference finals. now, they go back to boston for a game seven. incredible performance down the stretch by tatum, and hope is still alive for our new york knicks. they survived two nights ago. tonight, they get another chance in game six down in miami. a very beatable miami team. you win tonight, come back to madison square garden for a game seven, where anything can happen. i know everyone at this table is. >> reporter: -- very excited about the knicks. >> no. >> i tried. >> as every arsenal fan noise, knows, it's the hope that kills you. >> yeah. >> katty kay, speaking of the british, i'm curious, there is this reflex reaction with big events and the royals. curious, how are things going? what are the tabloids saying? what is everybody saying a week or so after the coronation,

about the king, camilla, prince harry? how is all the drama sorting out there? >> yeah, i've been surprised by actually how little drama there's been and how little chat there's been. it's like we had this big holiday weekend that everybody was so focused on with all the pomp and circumstance. there's been questions about the number of people who were arrested, the protesters who were arrested and were the police being overly heavy handed. that's something that people are focused on. that people should have had their right to protest against the monarchy on that day. there were these arrests and should they have been arrested. that's been most of the focus. little talk about harry. harry has flown off to montecito, and we've said good-bye to him. prince charles now gets on with the job. a big uptick in anti-monarchy sentiment? no. an uptick in pro-monarchy sentiment? no. it is now whether king charles

can keep this royal family relevant in the century. >> keep it steady, mind the gap. >> that was good, wasn't it? that was nice. >> yes, exactly. katty, one of the things that struck me during the queen's funeral, we talked about it, people that went over saw this, and they came back and it's really crazy that we in the united states have always taken great pride at being the melting pot of the world. and doing it supposedly without a whole lot of fuss about it. that's not the case anymore. obviously, we're going through some cataclysmic changes politically at least. people striking out, saying racist things about immigrants. but i just am curious, in your life, you have seen britain go from, as ed luce said when queen elizabeth took over from an ancient kingdom, ancient empire to a vibrant, post-modern,

diverse, multi-cultural country, especially city. when i walk around london, it just seems all so seamless. i'm wondering, what do you put that down to? what have londoners gotten right -- i'm not saying they haven't had problems, they have, but nothing like the united states. you look at who the prime minister is in great britain. look at who the mayor is in london. you look at who the prime minister is in ireland. it's all happened so seamlessly. >> i think that's certainly true. look, it is certainly true of london. you can draw a distinction between london, a cosmopolitan city, and some of the more rural areas of the united kingdom, which tend to be less welcoming of foreigners, more exclusively white and british. but london, i agree with you, joe, i mean, it's astonishing,

how multi-cultural it feels. here's a big difference i noticed coming from washington, d.c. there's more integration between races in london, far more kind of seamless mixing, and the class distinctions that seem to exist in the united states in terms of poverty and race don't seem to exist as much in the uk. you saw that in the coronation. there were many more women, for a start, taking part in it, but also there were very senior peers from different faiths and different races given a prominent role in that coronation. so you can be black and the mayor of london, indian and the prime minister of the united kingdom, and i think that -- anglo-indian, and it is a big difference compared to the united states. >> yes. willie, let's go from what king charles did last weekend to what you're doing this weekend. jack, of course, is going to be very excited. we're going to make up our

swiss-miss, chocolate cocoa. jack will be in his bovarian outfit, asking what uncle willie is doing this week. what do you have in store, not only for little jack, who is now 6'4", not only for little jack, but also for the rest of america? >> well, jack is holding that big yellow "sunday today" mug and eating his food. i have jessica chastain. she is nominated a couple days ago for a tony award, called "a doll's house," a revival. it's a stunning performance on broadway right now. we also, of course, talk about her academy award-winning movie career and how she's become an adopted new yorker. coming up for jack and the rest of the audience on "sunday today," over on nbc this weekend, it is jessica chastain.

we'll be right back here on "morning joe." okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition. together we provide nutrients to support immune, muscle, bone, and heart health. yaaay! woo hoo! ensure with 25 vitamins and minerals and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪

beautiful live picture of the white house at 7:00 on the dot on a friday morning in may. it was about seven hours ago that title 42, that pandemic-era immigration policy, expired. let's go straight down to the border where we find nbc's julia ainsley to look at the impact of all that. julia, good morning. what does it look like there? >> reporter: willie, i've been talking for three days from this shelter, sacred heart in downtown el paso.

you saw yesterday a lot of the sidewalks were empty. they're filling up again after title 42 lifted late last night. here, migrants sleeping along the sidewalks as they prepare to start their days and see what comes next. we don't know how many of these might have been apprehended and processed by border patrol or how many came in undetected. sometimes we have seen people come through to this area after they've been undetected and not processed. right now, what i'm hearing from border patrol officials and dhs officials is they expect the numbers to really be building in the coming days. it wasn't this tidal wave or flood when title 42 lifted, but basically, the more migrants that come in now, the longer it is going to take to process them and get them out of border patrol facilities, whether it is sending them back to mexico or releasing them in the united states. the longer that takes, the more they're going to have to release onto the streets like this. they're going to have to alleviate the overcrowding. there is news overnight. a federal judge in florida put a temporary restraining order on

the biden administration to keep them from releasing migrants without court dates and without a way of tracking them. that was a story we first broke on nbc news. they were going to be issuing the memo. the head of the border patrol did issue the memo. it's something they can't handle, and the judge is putting a restraining order on that. how does the border patrol combat what could be a massive overcrowding, could be a public health issue, if they aren't able to release migrants? in cities like this, they're asking for more funding from the federal government, more help from fema. they say in the coming days, they could really see a lot of people here sleeping on the streets with nowhere to go and needing their help. >> we heard the expectation that 60,000 migrants might cross quickly and immediately over the border as soon as title 42 expired midnight eastern time, seven hours ago. is that what it looks like right now, effectively people said the floodgates would be open and

overwhelm border patrol? what's it look like right now? >> reporter: from colleagues i've spoken to who have been across the southern border, that doesn't seem to be the reality. we knew there were 60,000 to 65,000 migrants waiting in northern mexico, but that doesn't mean they're all coming in at once. in fact, most of them want to turn themselves in and claim asylum. they're waiting in line to be processed. we've seen lines of people along the border between juarez and el paso waiting for their turn to come in and make their asylum claim, to turn themselves over to border patrol. it is still something to pay attention to. we're not out of the woods on a dire humanitarian crisis that already is unfolding but could get worse. >> julia ainsley, as always, thank you so much for your reporting. we greatly appreciate it. jonathan lemire, the republicans passed a border security bill out of the house.

what's the democrats' plan to counter that, and is it possible we could get in the face of just almost unprecedented humanitarian crises at the southern border, that we will actually get an immigration bill that tightens up the border, toughens up the border, and brings relief to immigrants? >> let's be clear, i mean, this republican bill in the house is mostly a messaging bill. mccarthy did get the votes to get it through. couple republicans defected, but he was able with slim margins to get it done. it's not expected to go anywhere in the democratically-controlled senate. but there is some hope, and we heard from senator sinema working across the aisle with senator tillis of north carolina, they say, look, it's a starting point. we can start trying to have conversations about an immigration bill. senator sinema was pretty clear she didn't like a lot of the stuff in the republican bill but, again, said it's a first step. we hear from the white house day after day, and we heard from secretory mayorkas at the

briefing room yesterday, again saying congress needs to get going on an immigration bill. this is a national crisis. we'll have the secretary here on "morning joe" a little later. the white house, yes, they'd love to talk about this, but they don't really anticipate it going anywhere. there's not even with these scenes at the border, there's not a real sense that this is the moment for immigration reform. in fact, i think, instead, most of the anticipation is republicans will simply use this as fodder for attacks on president biden, fair or not, and say, look, the border is broken, and try to make it an election year issue. >> we have two issues, the debt ceiling. the republicans passed something in the house. the democrats say it is dead on arrival. okay. what are you going to pass in the senate? we have a crisis with the debt ceiling. they need to pass something in the senate. that's how regular order works. they need to pass a bill in the senate on the debt ceiling.

jen psaki, democrats need to pass something regarding border security. i want to be clear here for people who might get triggered by me saying that. i'm not saying that because this is a massive political issue for democrats. republicans tried to make it an issue in 2018. trump is going to send troops to the border. it failed. they were going to try to do it in 2020. it failed. it failed in '22. this is not an issue that moves voters outside of red areas, but it doesn't mean it's not a humanitarian crisis. we need to shore up the border. the tougher we get on keeping our borders secure, the more of a message we send to millions and millions of people who make this dangerous, inhumane journey, and then have this inhumane experience at the border because, you know, they can't just walk across the

border. why don't they pass a bill and then negotiate with the house? >> most democrats you talk to, and i'm sure you talk to them, too, are not opposed to more border security. in fact, they think it needs to be smarter border security, because a wall, as we all know, is doing nothing. they want it to be more up to date with the modern technology that the system allows for. the challenge, joe, is what jonathan said. it's a message bill that came through the house. they only want to do border security. they will not negotiate on things that are also crises, like the asylum processing system that's out of date, that doesn't have resources. there isn't a system in place. like the dreamers who are hanging in the, you know -- they're hanging out there and don't have any confirmation of what their future looks like. so i think the challenge here, joe, is this has become a

completely broken system. everybody agrees on that. it has become so -- both sides won't sit down and address the issues. border security is a part of it. it's also asylum processing, dreamers, others who have kind oflooking for a legal pathway to be in the country. >> let's bring into the conversation democratic member of the house oversight and arms services committees, congress man ro khanna of california. thanks for being with us. a lot to talk to you about including your trip to new hampshire. let's start here. i think everyone agrees, even if they're not using the term, this is not a good situation. it is a crisis at the border. whoever has been in office over the last couple of decades. how do we do better for migrants coming across the border? how do we do better for the border towns? is there any hope of legislation coming out of this congress? >> first of all, let's give

president biden some credit for the policies that he has implemented. he has a system where people can file for humanitarian parole, coming from cuba and venezuela. he has regional centers. he has implemented a system which says you need to file first for asylum in the nearest country after you leave, before you can be granted asylum in the united states. that is consistent with international law. that's why we're not seeing, as your reporter said, hundreds of thousands of people coming across. and the president is willing to have common sense policy. most democrats are. secure the borders, then have enough people to process the claims because we're a country where you can file asylum. it's a simple solution. we're willing to compromise. republicans aren't. >> congressman, you said the biden administration should be saluted for some of what they're doing. we had 11,000 migrants cross the border in one day this week. it's been absolute chaos at the

border over the past year or so. i mean, something needs to be done. what's the democrats' answer? if you don't like the republicans' bill, what's the democrats' answer to securing the border? again, let me say, securing the border not because we're xenophobic. see securing the border not because democrats feel it's an issue that will hurt them in campaigns, but secuing the border as an humanitarian issue, to send the message, don't make the dangerous journey with your families. do it the legal way. save your families. save your lives. >> joe, as a son of immigrants, i agree with you. a nation needs secure borders. most democrats are fine with spending money on technology to secure the border, are fine with

increasing border security, but we want to make sure that we actually solve the problem and do three additional things. first, make sure that we're investing in people who are going to be able to process the asylum claims. if someone has a false asylum claim or just coming for economic reasons, they will be sent back. but we don't have the resources for that. second, have a plan for comprehensive immigration. third, look at what's causing people to flee venezuela and cuba. i mean, republicans are saying, let's sanction them more. that's causing more people to actually leave. let's look at rational sanction policy so we're not causing the influx. then to say what president biden has done, is give people the opportunity to make the claims before they get to the border. the problem for the president is that congress is not doing anything. i believe he has done more, certainly more than president trump or even the previous president in getting done what he can without congress acting. >> congressman, good morning.

you have a trip planned to new hampshire. someone goes to new hampshire after iowa and south carolina, eyebrows are often raised. we want to talk about the purpose of your trip. we saw donald trump was in new hampshire just the other day. we also know, frankly, the state of new hampshire is pretty mad at president biden because of how he proposed changing the primary calendar. talk to us about what your message will be in the grand state. >> i'm going to make the case for president biden's re-election, as i have been making the case for the president this morning. the reality is, we can't let trump and desantis have all the oxygen in the 2023 primary. i believe the president should campaign in the primary everywhere he campaigned in 2020. it seemed to work out for him then. make the case now. it would be a mistake, as you know, new hampshire gets all the media attention, it'd be a mistake not to campaign, not to make the case to voters this year. i'm honored to be invited to the

shaheen mcintyre dinner to be able to do that. >> congressman ro khanna, thank you so much. hope you come back soon. we have so many things we want to talk to you about, but so little time. only four hours a day. please come back. >> thank you. >> all right. let's bring in staff writer for "the atlantic." frank, first of all, how are you holding up with arsenal collapsing? i was explaining to lemire and willie, cheering for the celtics and the knicks, it's the hope that killing arsenal fans, just as it'll be the hope that kills knicks fans. >> you have to carry with yourself a healthy dose of fatalism, because you know when you're playing against a nation state, the odds are stacked against you. you know, your friends up in man city, you know, they got all this petro money behind them. i don't know. it's hard for us to compete, us poor, north london boys. >> yeah, yeah. so many people feel sorry for

them, rubbing sticks together, hoping to make a fire at night to keep warm. i love your latest piece. you wrote it about a recent speech that jake sullivan, the national security, gave at the brookings institute. you write, in part, this, quote, the washington consensus was a phrase that entered circumstance lace at the end of the 1980s, describing the emerging bipartisan faith in globalization, deregulation and the wisdom of the markets suited to an era of optimistic triumphalism. the era is ending, or the last few decades revealed cracks in the foundation. the speech was something like the antithesis of the paradigm. ever-greater global independence is no longer desirable. one reason is china, which participates in global capitalism without fairly playing by the rules, and another is the realization shown by the pandemic-induced crisis, the global supply chain. america is vulnerable to it,

even small disruptions on the other side of the planet. you talk about the washington consensus that grew up in the 1980s. by the way, i saw that when i came to congress in 1994. suddenly, there was something called the mexican bailout. you have to do this. you have to do the mexican bailout. of course, it was a goldman sachs bail out. those that came, we're like, no, we're not using taxpayer dollars to bail out goldman. the leaders said, it was the washington consensus. we got run over. there were so many other things that we got run over because of this washington consensus that you're talking about. but it has changed and not just because of the pandemic. i remember the ceo of general electric saying several years ago, we have to start making things in the united states. we have a supply chain problem here. why can't we make refrigeraors faster and cheaper and better? why can't we make cars faster and cheaper? this has been bubbling up from

businesses. now, whether it's masks, medication, computer chips, we're suddenly realizing that unfettered free trade and this blind faith in the markets left this country exposed. talk about that. >> yeah, absolutely. i think the biden administration has begun to propose an alternative. some of this began under president trump, and he started to shatter some elements of that old consensus. but in a series of bills that have passed, you've got the infrastructure bill, you have the chips bill, you have the inflation reduction act. all of these bills practice something called industrial policy. they're using investment from the state in order to catalyze the private sector to build the things that we feel collectively, democratically, are essential to the future of our nation. it's really important for us to be able to produce

semi-conductors on our own because there is this real big possibility that china could eventually invade taiwan. that would choke us off from the global supply of semiconductors, which go into every weapon system, every automobile. they're essential just for modern life. or you take something like climate. we know we're facing a climate crisis. the private sector has begun to move in the direction of producing clean energy at scale, but they're not moving fast enough. what the inflation reduction act does, it provides a series of tax credits that are just pushing the foot on the accelera accelerator, so we have the supply of electric vehicles, solar panels, batteries, wind turbines, and there's this sense that we can actually make them here in america. so you have biden, the oldest president in american history, overseeing this strategy to spill investment into these things that will help claim the

commanding heights of the necessary industries of the future for the united states. it's actually working. that's the thing that i think has gotten so little attention. over the course of the last eight months, you have this tremendous flow of capital into producing big, industrial plants. you have semiconductor foundries coming into phoenix, into other places. you have solar fields coming into places like georgia, into marjorie taylor greene's district of all places. it's a really exciting thing for our country. >> frank, it's katty here. i'm going to put my "what about our allies" hat on. i know you've heard the concerns, that there's a certain amount of continuum between the trump administration's foreign policy and the biden administration's foreign policy. not just around china, although you could argue, actually, the biden administration in some ways has been tougher on china

with export controls, but even from europeans saying, hold on a second. all that america is doing with the industrial policy is squeezing out its allies. that kind of, you know, to the extent that trade has been a security factor in terms of foreign relations, that is squeezing out some of the strength of the transatlantic relationship. i hear it all the time. i hear they're not happy. i'm just wondering how you feel, whether there is a distinction between trump and biden and how the administration should or is address that. >> yeah. well, there is definitely a lot of especially european anxiety over the industrial policy that the biden administration has practiced, but i think, ultimately, what the biden administration aspires to do is to relocate our supply chains, not simply to the united states, but to consolidate them in places where we have reliability and sustainability and to essentially do something that's called friend shoring. which is, in places that are

allies, in places we can count on in a time of crisis, our supply chains will be splayed out in those places. the biden administration has done a bad job explaining this to allies, but i think they've made some progress over the months as allies expressed concern about this policy. >> fascinating piece. "the new washington conconsensu" frank foer, good to seeorkas is standing by, and we'll talk to him about the end of title 42. what the biden administration is doing about the influx of migrants. also this morning, with the deadline three weeks away, there's still no deal on the dead ceiling. we'll have a live report from the white house on where negotiations stand as a plan meeting today has been postponed. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. achievement takes sacrifice. the real secret to success?

better sleep. but they won't put that on a poster, so purple put it in a mattress. purple is different. soft and firm, in all your right places. the gelflex grid keeps you cool, while sleep does it's scientifically proven thing. you rise sharper. an overnight success. on purple. the mattress made for successful sleeping. ♪♪ there's a different way to treat hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's one less thing to think about while traveling. hiv pills aren't on my mind. a quick change in my plans is no big deal. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression.

if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection-site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. every other month, and i'm good to go. ask your doctor about every-other-month cabenuva. at bombas, we make the comfiest socks, underwear, and t-shirts that feel good, and most of all, do good. because when you purchase one, we donate one to those in need. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first purchase. bombas. postmenopausal women with hr+ her2- metastatic breast cancer are living longer with kisqali. so, long live family time. long live dreams. and long live you. kisqali is a pill proven to help women live longer when taken with an aromatase inhibitor. and kisqali helps preserve quality of life.

so you're not just living, you're living well. kisqali can cause lung problems or an abnormal heartbeat which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. avoid grapefruit during treatment. tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, including breathing problems, cough, chest pain, a change in your heartbeat, dizziness, yellowing of the skin or eyes, dark urine, tiredness, loss of appetite, abdomen pain, bleeding, bruising, fever, chills, or other symptoms of an infection, a severe or worsening rash, are or plan to become pregnant, or breastfeeding. long live hugs and kisses. ask about kisqali. and long live life.

that's some bad luck brian. and i think i'm late on my car insurance. good thing the general gives you a break when you need it. yeah, with flexible payment options to keep you covered. so today is your lucky...day [crash] so today is your lucky...day for a great low rate, go with the general.

the pandemic era immigration policy, title 42, expired 7 1/2 hours ago. illegal border crosses topped 10,000 per day this week. that's the highest level ever. the biden administration is urging those seeking entry into the united states to use lawful pathways. joining us now to talk more about this is homeland security secretary alejandro mayorkas. mr. secretary, thank you for your time this morning. we heard in the days leading up to the expiration of title 42 that at the stroke of midnight eastern time, a couple hours before that, there would be a flood of migrants. there were 60,000 to 65,000 waiting to come into the country. our reporter julia ainsley from el paso said that's not what she's seeing and hearing. what can you tell us in these early hours after the expiration of title 42 about what is going on at the border? >> thanks so much for having me.

we are seeing people arriving at the border, at our southern border. we are taking them into custody. we are processing them. if they make a claim for relief and don't succeed, they will be removed. the authority ended 7 1/2 hours ago. our traditional immigration enforcement authorities that deliver tougher consequences started immediately thereafter, and there's been one constant through it all. that is a broken immigration system that congress needs to fix. >> we've heard from border patrol agents and leadership down there that this is going to be an impossible problem now with the expiration of title 42, that they are just going to be overwhelmed. what are you doing? what are you putting in place, mr. secretary, to help make their job easier? >> so we've been planning and executing on our plan for more than 18 months. we've been readying for this

moment. it is going to be tough. it is going to be a tough transition. as i've made clear, we've got a plan and we are executing on it. our plan is very straightforward. there's a right way to seek relief in the united states and a wrong way. there's a safe way and a dangerous way. this president, president biden, has expanded lawful pathways for individuals seeking relief more than anyone else. we have built lawful, safe and orderly pathways for individuals to seek relief in the united states. where they don't have to place their lives and their live savings in the hands of ruthless smugglers that only care about profit, not people. if individuals do not use those lawful pathways, then they will face tougher consequences at the border. they will be removed if they do not qualify for relief, and they

will face, after removal, at least a five-year bar from entry into the united states. if they try again, they could face criminal prosecution. >> you said a moment ago, mr. secretary, we have a broken immigration system. i don't think many would disagree with that. yes, it is a decades old problem, but the truth of the matter is, this week, we're seeing record numbers of illegal crosses at the border. last year, almost 2 million arrests, another record at the border. why has the problem gotten so much worse in the last year or two? >> two things. first, let's not surrender to the fact we have a broken immigration system. congress needs to act. let's fix it. it's been a problem that everyone agrees on for more than two decades. number one. number two, the challenge that we are seeing at our southern border is not unique to our southern border. it is a surge in migration, a surge in the displacement of

people all across our region. in latin america. not only in our hemisphere, around the world. we are seeing more displaced people now than we have at any time since world war ii. >> but why is it this last year? why record crossings? some suggested it's because the oppression that is -- the impression is it'd be easier with president biden to cross into the country. the consequences are less severe than they would have been under president trump or even president obama. why is the problem so intense right now? >> well, a few factors. poverty, violence, corruption, authoritarian regimes, the covid-19 pandemic, extreme weather events, the causes of displacement are many, number one. number two, we are also combating smuggling organizations that spread false

information, that spread lies to intending migrants, deceiving them into thinking that the border is open and it is not. it has not been. last year, we removed, returned or expelled about 1.4 million people. and we are battling the smuggling organizations in an unprecedented way. we have arrested more than 10,000 people involved in smuggling operations, and we are also communicating accurate information to intending migrants. we started a digital campaign only two days ago that builds on our other communications. if i had two words of caution to provide to individuals who are thinking to take the dangerous journey, i'd say, one, don't take it. use a safe, lawful, orderly path that we have made available to

you. second, don't believe the smugglers. listen only to official government communications. >> mr. secretary, want to get your reaction to something that's happened overnight. a florida judge blocked the emergency program known as parole with conditions, which would have allowed some migrants arriving to the u.s. southern border to enter the country for a limited amount of time while they await processing. can you tell us what impact will that decision have, and will the administration be appealing? >> very harmful ruling, attacking a practice that prior administrations have used. it's not new. let me share with you what happens. first of all, the majority of individuals will be removed. when a border patrol facility is overcrowded, we screen and vet the individuals in our custody, then we release them, for them to go into immigration enforcement proceedings. >> mr. secretary --

>> the department of justice is considering its options. >> eugene robinson of "the washington post" has a question for you, mr. secretary. gene? >> mr. secretary, you said that it is a broken system. congress needs to act. so write the bill. what specifically should be in it? what does congress need to do? >> well, i would thank you very much for that question. i would say take a look at the legislation that president biden presented to congress on day one of our administration, now 28 months ago. what a great place to start. >> mr. secretary, we've seen an influx of migrants crossing from guatemala to mexico. what more can the administration do to put pressure on the president of mexico to stop the flow of immigrants coming to america's southern border? >> so we work very closely with the government of mexico, and we work very closely with the government of guatemala.

i had the privilege of speaking with the president of guatemala within the last ten days. president biden has spoken with the president of mexico just this week. in fact, mexico is taking action with respect to the security of its southern border. we are working very closely in partnership with the government of mexico to address the challenge of migration that is impacting countries throughout our hemisphere. >> homeland security secretary alejandro mayorkas, i know we'll be talking much more as we monitor what's happening at the border, just now after the end of title 42 and moving forward. appreciate your time this morning. thanks so much. jen psaki, we're looking forward as always to your show on sunday, "inside with jen psaki." i understand you spoke with new hampshire governor chris sununu after former president trump's town hall in his home state. let's take a look at a clip from

that. >> one of the things that struck me was the laughter in the audience, particularly when trump was talking about e. jean carroll, someone the jury says he sexually abused, defamed, and he has to pay for $5 million. you were not involved in making up the audience, but these are people in the audience from new hampshire. republicans in new hampshire, undeclared voters in the room. i was curious what your reaction was when you saw them laughing. >> it was embarrassing, right? i can understand as the camera panned through the audience, i knew pretty much everyone. they're all trump supporters. the audience was absolutely filled with trump supporters. so i wasn't surprised to hear the support. when you're talking about a serious issue like that, laughter, mocking and all that, it is completely inappropriate, without a doubt. it doesn't shine a positive light on new hampshire. again, understand what the audience makeup was. >> large percentage of trump supporters. >> i would say almost all of them, yeah. i think -- i'd have to look, but to kaitlan's credit, she'd say, this is so and so, and this person voted for you in '16 and

'20, maybe undecided, but i think everyone voted for trump at some point. i don't know how they set it up. it was a room full of trump supporters, so no one should have been surprised to hear the support. i would call it embarrassing. >> jen, governor sununu has been critical on donald trump. on this show, he lays out the case against donald trump, why he is unfit to office. when you ask if he'd support him if he is the nominee, he begins to bob and weave a little bit. tell us more about your conversation. >> exactly. we talked a lot about that, willie. if he's not the nominee, who is going to be the nominee? as you know, willie, he is making a decision by june on whether or not he is going to run. we talked about that. with we also spent a good chunk of the interview, which is about an hour, talking about his positions on a range offish shoo issues that are on the minds of primary and general election voters. gun violence, the economy,

default. some of the positions and things he had to say would be surprising to people in the country. tune in on sunday. >> it is a great show. jen is off to a great start. check it out, "inside with jen psaki" this sunday at noon eastern. thanks so much. we'll see you on sunday at noon. up next here, a candid glimpse inside the rarefied world of elite sports and broadcasting. two-time nba champion and three-time sports emmy nominated analyst kenny "the jet" smith. we're excited about this one. he joins us on set with his new memoir and his take on the nba playoffs. kenny smith next on "morning joe." from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give

the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination.

what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ if you're turning 65 soon or over 65 and planning to retire... now's the time to learn more about an aarp

medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare and get help protecting yourself from the out-of-pocket costs medicare doesn't pay. because the time to prepare is before you go on medicare. don't wait. get started today. call unitedhealthcare for your free decision guide.

oh! [ laughter ] >> that was bad right there. that was bad. >> get our -- >> that was bad. >> all right.

kenny. i'm all right. i'm all right. [ laughter ] >> just pull. >> all right, kenny. this means war, kenny. this means war. >> savage move from kenny there, a moment from tnt's "inside the nba." joining us now, one of the members of the "inside" crew, a nba champion, sports analyst now, emmy nominated, he has a memoir, "talk of champions." we were going to propose a run to the wall, but after that, i'm out. >> i'm not always pushing people into the christmas tree. not that time of year. >> maybe we're safe. can't wait to talk about the book. i have to ask about the playoffs a little bit. >> sure. >> last night, we were talking in the break about jayson tatum. celtics on the ropes, having the worst game of his life. it is setting up to be an infamous thing, where they're

eliminated from the playoffs. then in the fourth quarter, he decides it's not going to happen. scores 16 points. >> unbelievable. you know, he's my book, "talk o champions." his ability to flip the switch in the middle of something that's not going correctly, you know. most guys when they're in that, most players, when they're in that zone, where they can't find the rhythm, then at the biggest moment, make the biggest plays, it's astounding. it is a legendary celtic. it goes into the storied franchise record book of great performances. >> as a very nervous celtics fan, i look at this series here, and it is two very inconsistent teams, up and down. tatum has been up and down. harden up and down. wonderful one game, terrible the next. embiid has been good throughout. game seven sunday. the celtics have a below .500 record at playoffs at home. it's no sure thing.

what's your expectation? >> the experience of the -- in the last six years, brown and tatum have probably been the best tandem in basketball. they've been to more conference finals and nba finals than anyone, including guys like lebron james and steph curry. if you are a celtics fan, you can breathe easier. our guys have done it. they've done it before. it should be a great matchup for game seven, which is the two best in sports. >> that's for sure. >> boston fans, you can stay worried if you want. nuggets closed out their series last night. jokic, another triple-double, two-time mvp. this team, best record in the west, still flying under the radar as they roll through the playoffs. >> complete team. you have a great point guard, murray. you have experience and a great

bench, great coaching. they're the most complete team. the only thing is they've never been over the hump. all of a sudden, this is new territory for them. they're exploring new land. they're like, oh, what's over here? like, okay. at the same time as they're trying to win an nba championship. >> are you ready for the moment? we're about to find out. we'll find out who they're going to play, the lakers can close it out tonight. lebron looebron, looks like a.d play despite the injury. they have the warriors. they're still the champs. what to you look for in this series? >> i've been blessed to play for two championship teams. there was a model that coach said, you never underestimate the heart of the champion. the ability to understand the moment and to continue to drive in that moment and not be fearful of losing, is what champions are made of. >> so we've already established my celtics fandom, which means i hate the lakers. i've watched with dismay since

the trading deadline how good the team has become. lebron is home tonight. they have a chance to finish it off. what has been the difference? they started 2-10. people thought that lebron might ask out at some point. now, they're a win away from the conference finals. >> you know, when you're older and you got to get up to go to work, it's a little bit different. lebron james -- >> we know that feeling. >> at times, we all feel that. at times, i would imagine that lebron james has gone through this so many times. then the injuries to the lakers. we're looking at a team that we hadn't seen. they made great trades before the trade deadline. bringing back lebron rejouvuated. anthony davis is similarly healthy. he was hurt the other day but will play tonight. his health is probably the difference. you have a healthy two-star tandem, then you're ready if you're a laker fan. >> finally, kenny, new york guy. i grew up in jersey. give me hope. kept the season alive at the garden thanks to jalen brunson. can we wake up julius randall

and steal one on the road? >> i'm a new yorker, as well, grew up in queens. i was an adversary of the knicks in my playing days. my counterparts took the n.y. off my name and said only "ken." it's unless the knicks win. i hope they win so i can be kenny again and not just ken. >> do you have confidence? can they do it? >> this is it. i really believe, for miami. i don't think the heat can win a game seven in new york. this is miami heat's game seven. >> all right. i'm going to take that. all right. let's get into the book. you mentioned it, you're a new york guy. i grew up around here. you were a legend at archbishop malloy high school, all american, went to north carolina, played for one season under michael jordan, what you knew as mike, as you talk about in the book. he showed you around campus and talked to you about what it meant to play there. let's start earlier on. the book is about stories of the people who made you. early in your life, growing up

in queens, a rising basketball star, who are some of those people who had an influence on you? >> well, being at archbishop malloy, dean smith, the late, great dean smith, michael jordan being a teammate. those are all in the book. my mom and dad, obviously, first. they have still the ability to listen. i can still hear echoes in the back of my head saying, "listen, kenny, just listen to this." a lot of times in this day and age, we want to be heard. listening gives you empathy and also gives you, when you don't have sympathy for someone but you may understand where they're coming from and how they get there. so i think that's what i learned early on from mom and dad, dean smith, and those years with michael jordan. a 17, 18, 19-year-old jordan. the vulnerability of hearing, you know -- we were roommates on the road -- wishes and aspirations, then see him ascend to those is what the book is about. realizing that i was around greatness my whole life.

>> yeah, you write about that in the book. he wasn't yet michael jordan. he was mike jordan. obviously, incredibly talented basketball player. you saw what it would take to be a champion, what it'd take to be like michael jordan. during the pickup games, the scrimmages in practice, when everyone got water, he wouldn't leave the court. he'd stand out there to show people he didn't need water. >> i'll be the last man standing. >> yeah. >> it's a mentality of champions. i read a lot of self-help books. it's always from one person's point of view, so i want, when people read this, to take it and say, yeah, 15 chapters of 15 people. i didn't name them, one, two, three. it's after every individual. bill russell. magic johnson. shaq, charles. what i learned from them over the years, i wish i knew at 20. we'd all be owning the station if we do the things these great people have done, that you can assimilate and put into your own

life. >> tell us what you learned from bill russell who, of course, was beyond a basketball player, a civil rights icon. we lost him, sadly, a few months ago. what were things he imparted to you? >> he drafted me and coached me into the nba. he was also the team president. we're sitting one day, and he's reading these notes. telling about yugoslavia players, players in spain. i said, coach, isn't a player in alabama just as good? he said, as a african-american, you should never not want inclusion. in a small moment, he took something i was joking about casually and taught me how to live my life and i do that today and there's also -- you know, those kind -- he would say things like, yeah, i was talking to malcolm. i'm like malcolm. malcolm x. i was talking to martin. it was so informal how he would tell me stories about these people that was incredible. >> you've carried that with you, you famously in 2020 walked off

the set of inside the nba on people who were protesting. how important is that as part of your life now that you have such a platform that you can make a statement like that? >> it was the echos that i heard of all the people and that was the reason i wrote the book, it wasn't really me, it was dean smith when i first came to university of north carolina when i'm sitting there one week into basketball practice he brings me in his office. i'm thinking he's going to tell me how many jump ropes to do, how much to lift weights. he said, conditiony, as an african american student what are you going to do here on this campus? it was the first time that someone who wasn't african american asked me what i was going to do for african american people. so those echos are always in me, the bill russells and that's what i wrote about. that's how i got there. that's how i get political, that's how i raise my kids, that's how i play basketball. it was all together in all of those stories. >> kenny, eugene robinson with the "washington post" is here. he has a question for you.

gene? >> kenny, when you were winning your championships one thing that just really stood out was your off the charts basketball iq. you just understood the game at a level that a lot of players didn't. so of the people you write about, who had the highest basketball iq and who has the highest basketball iq of the players in the game today or the players left in the playoffs today? >> well, i would say that of the people i have written about between magic johnson, michael jordan, they all have factors, i think it's all fruit, there is no right answer in that, but i think that's why i wrote it. i used to believe that the people that i have written about where everyone had access to and i was writing the book and i was sending in each chapter to the editor. he said due realize everyone that touched your life has a book written about their life. and i was like, wow. i just thought about it.

so i don't know if anyone has the back acumen but i would say that i've learned to -- all of those things and those stories and how to get there through them. >> so the guys you sit next to every night, charles, shaq, ernie. >> yes. >> we play the funny moments, you guys have fun, but you've been together for 25 years. >> 25. >> i can't believe that. that's amazing. what do you learn from that guy, charles barkley? what do you learn from shaq that you take with you? >> for shaq for sure we talk about being empathetic and listening in terms of, you know, you grew up in a military background, he is a police officer as well, he grew up -- and that got him to be shaq. that lifestyle. i grew up in queens, new york. i might not have the same reverence in every moment for -- i have respect, without question, for law enforcement and everything else, but at times i may not have the same reverence. and to understand that in any kind of moment when people say things, you know, why they say them, i think that's what i learned with shaq.

also with charles, you know, all the funny moments, but i think the biggest thing he gave me a voice where he's like one of the modern day athletes prior to what's going on now that people would ask other questions other than sports. they would ask him what's going on in pop culture, in the middle of a locker room, like what's going on in the political, after a game. so he brought that to tnt. i'm always appreciative that now as being -- i could speak as a sports person, but i also get to speak as a citizen. >> so why, kenny, do you think your show works so well? there have been so many people who have come after in the last 25 years, we're going to be the nba on tnt of this network or this sport but you can't create chemistry that isn't there. you guys clearly get along, you enjoy being -- ernie is great, steering the ship. why does it work so well and it's worked to well for 25 years? >> we have great producers and directors that stay producing and director, we have great

talent that stays in the talent lane which is hard to do. to give the trust. in 25 years the three of us have never been to a production meeting and what we do is they trust that we're going to be prepared and then if we listen to each other, we go back to listening, if charles says something and he's got 15 seconds to talk and i have 15, i have written my notes up and say what he just said is more important than what i'm about to say. so i need to get on -- even if i disagree or agree with it, it's just listening to each other instead of having something we're going to say in our head and say we have to say it. >> we have to watch before the games, now after the games. shout out to you in "hustle." >> shout out to adam. he called me for that. that was fun. >> more acting in your future? you were good. >> i'm not good. he got the acting bug in me, but i like the other side as well. we'll see. >> also you had the 1990 dunk contest stolen from you.

you beat dominique in my eyes. >> cheers to you. >> a new book titled "tack of champions: stories of the people who made me." kenny smith, great to see you, congrats on the book. >> thanks for having me. still ahead this morning new legal and political fallout for former president trump after that cnn town hall this week. we will look at some of the strongest push back coming from republicans. plus, new charges expected to be filed this morning after a new york city commuter put another passenger in a fatal choke hold this week. we will go over what to expect in court today when "morning joe" comes right back on a friday morning. trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control.

now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. talk to your asthma specialist to see if once-monthly nucala may be right for you. and learn about savings at nucala.com there's more to your life than asthma. find your nunormal with nucala.

somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. thanks to clearer skin with skyrizi - this is my moment. there's nothing on my skin

and that means everything! ♪nothing is everything♪ now's the time. ask your doctor about skyrizi, the #1 dermatologist-prescribed biologic in psoriasis. learn how abbvie could help you save. (water splashing) hey, dad... hum... what's the ocean like? ♪ are there animals living underwater? ♪ is the ocean warm? yeah, it can be very warm. ♪ you were made to remember some days forever. we were made to help you find the best way there. ♪

why did you take those documents with you when you left the white house? >> i had every right to under the presidential records act. you have the presidential records act, i was there, i took what i took and it gets declassified.

biden, on the other hand, he has 1,850 boxes, he had boxes sent to chinatown. chinatown where they don't speak even english in that chinatown we are talking about. >> i have to stop you right there because -- >> they talk about us. just so you understand i had every right to do it, i didn't make a secret of it. >> when to comes to your documents did you ever show those classified documents to anyone? >> not really. i would have the right to. by the way, they were declassified. >> what do you mean rot really? >> not that i can think of. let me just tell you i had the absolute right to do whatever i want with them. i have the right. >> former president trump facing new legal and political fallout following that cnn town hall. we will take a look at the comments that may have stood out to prosecutors as some republicans now voice concern over remarks donald trump made including those. >> oh, my god. >> plus a debt ceiling meeting between biden and top congressional leaders is postponed. what that means for the looming debt crisis. good morning, welcome to "morning joe." this is friday, may 12th. with us this morning the host of

"way too early" white house bureau chief and "politico" jonathan lemire, katty kay, associate editor of the "washington post" eugene robinson and the host of "inside with jen psaki", jen psaki, she is a former white house press secretary. joe, let's go back to the comments that donald trump made at the town hall about the mar-a-lago documents invoking inaccurately the presidential records act and again saying, quote, i took what i took. yes, he says i took those classified documents with me to mar-a-lago, maybe i showed them to some people, i don't remember, but he says i certainly had the right to. just kind of laying out a trail here as jack smith and others prosecute this case about classified documents. >> you know, "politico's" jack shaffer basically had a message for all of us who are concerned about this cnn town hall meeting, it was stop whining and get over it. this guy has put himself in more

legal jeopardy than ever before and his point was right. on this point he said i can do whatever i want to do with these classified documents, which of course is false. they become declassified the second i take them. you know, remember he was saying if i even think they're declassified they become declassified. >> yes. >> sounds like a super power dr. evil had out of austin power or something. but he really showed his arrogance in a way that's going to hurt him legally and politically where he says i can do whatever i want to do with classified documents. what does that sound like? i can do whatever i want to do because i'm a star with women, he says, where he says he can sexually abuse women because he's been a star. he said that in there, fortunately or unfortunately, the deposition, but he doubled down on the "access hollywood" tape. so all of that -- all of that's obviously going to hurt him and also he exposed himself most likely to another defamation

suit from e. jean carroll because he can't help himself. it's probably going to cause him another 3, 4, 5 million dollars because a jury of his peers, this is pretty straightforward, he defamed her once again. so, yeah, that town hall meeting ended up being costly for a lot of people, it's going to be especially costly, i think, politically and going to be costly economically for donald trump because -- and legally in a criminal sense because i think he gave jack smith just what he wanted. so i hope getting a couple of people in the audience who were laughing and cheering when he insulted the host, when he insulted e. jean carroll, i hope that was worth it for him because it's going to cost him a lot. >> you know, he's operated with such impunity over the course of his adult life and he still operates with that mindset but now it's caught up with him beginning with e. jean carroll, he has the indictment in new york city and everything that's ahead of him in term of jack

smith's two investigations and what's going on in georgia. we've heard -- we will hear some charges come down this summer from the da in fulton county. nbc's garrett haake took a look for us at the legal peril donald faces in part because of what he said the other night on cnn. >> former president donald trump. >> reporter: former president trump's first televised town hall of the 2024 campaign potentially creating new legal and political challenges for the republican front runner. with an attorney for e. jean carroll telling "the new york times" she may sue mr. trump for defamation again over his latest attacks. >> i have no idea who this woman -- this is a fake story made up story. i have no idea who the hell -- she is a whack job. >> mr. president -- >> reporter: just two days after a jury found mr. trump liable for sexually abusing ms. carroll in the mid '90s and for defaming her in his denials. legal experts tell nbc news mr.

trump may have complicated his own defense in the special counsel investigation into his handling of classified documents, appearing to contradict his lawyers' claims that documents got to his florida home by accident. >> i had every right to do it. i didn't make a secret of it. >> garrett haake reporting there. then there of course is the political backlash to that town hall not just from democrats. speaking to reporters yesterday a handful of republican senators rejected trump's positions on issues like the war in ukraine, the debt ceiling and his characterization of the january 6th insurrection as what he called a, quote, beautiful day. >> does it worry you that your party's leading presidential candidate -- >> of course it does. that's why i don't intend to support him for the republican nomination. >> who do you hope to support? >> i haven't decided yet. it won't be him. >> and why? what's the reason for you not supporting him? >> where do i begin. >> where as republicans aren't going to win unless we can convince independents in swing states why we're better than the

mess that we've got now. and if you can't do that i think you're not very articulate at what we should be saying. i think the american public is confused. you couldn't have more to work with than what the biden administration has dished up, and yet we're here pivoting on it being who has got the right message. we should have the right message, it clearly needs to be aimed at independents in the middle. >> i think that currently the leader of the republican party is ron desantis. until ron desantis gets in this race everything we do to talk about president trump and, quite frankly, other candidates, is just premature. >> are you ruling out endorsing president trump? >> i've said that what i'm going to do is look at tim scott, who i think is going to be running. >> again, if you are listening on the radio, that was todd young, mike front, both of indiana, cynthia loomis of wyoming and mike rounds as well.

senators, republicans, speaking out against donald trump. so, joe, we've heard some of this over the last couple of days from republicans on capitol hill, mostly from the senate, condemning a lot of what donald trump said and sort of wish casting ron desantis as the leader of the republican party. i guess we will have to wait and see because we've learned this lesson over the last eight years or so, if donald trump muscles ron desantis out of the way it looks clear that he will be the nominee if everyone falls in line again. >> the difference is they have the experience of losing in '17, '18, '19, '21 and '22 and especially, '22, eugene robinson, where joe biden made historic gains as newt gingrich said, again, underestimated for a president going into this first midterm election, he did better than any other presidents since 1934 when it came to terms of like, for instance, governorships, he did exceedingly well, he outperformed everywhere. so much of that has to do with

joe biden got a lot of things done but also donald trump. i'm going to keep saying it, going to keep saying it as a national review writer said before the 2022 election, we be voters are talking about donald trump democrats win. when voters are talking about joe biden republicans win. donald trump goes out and does something like that which is horrifying to so many people. well, yeah, that also -- i guarantee you that's the best the biden campaign has felt since they announced because he reminds everybody, everybody, with every tweet, with every performance on tv like that, every time he says he can sexual assault a woman because he is a star, every time he says he can do whatever wants to do with classified documents, every time he kisses up to vladimir putin, every time he says end the ukrainian war in one day, every time he says he's going to pardon convicts that beat the hell out of cops, every time he

says that january 6th was a beautiful day, every time he says that the election was rigged, when the overwhelming majority of americans disagree with him on all of these things, that is a huge win for biden. that is a huge win for democrats. but, you know, trump doesn't care that he's damaging the republican party. he never has, never will and his most intense supporters are just clueless still on this matter even after all the losses. >> yeah, some republicans act as if donald trump is ever going to care about the republican party or the future of the republican party. he doesn't care about the republican party, he cares about donald trump. some of those senators, fortunately, have realized that. right after the debate president biden sent out a fundraising tweet, the first line was "you want four more years of that?"

which was perfect. i mean, it was absolutely true. you just saw what you would get for four years of donald trump, perhaps worse than the last four years of donald trump. you are right that he does seem to have further incriminated himself on a bunch of levels. where to begin with the fact checking? no, joe biden did not have 1,850 boxes of documents in some chinatown where they don't speak english. that's completely made up. but, again -- >> gene, can i interject quickly on that point, too? let's say because donald trump won't say or tell the truth, the difference between joe biden and donald trump, the difference between mike pence and donald trump, is joe biden and mike pence both volunteered, hey, we found some documents do you guys want to come get it?

donald trump never did that. they had to find out. they had to go down there with people on the inside telling them what he had and then he lied, he obstructed justice and continued lying about keeping the documents. so, yeah, there's that -- it doesn't matter how many boxes mike pence had, it doesn't matter how many boxes joe biden had. >> right. >> the fact is when they found them, they called the feds and said, hey, come get these. >> right. and donald trump did completely the opposite. he obstructed for a year, hiding documents, he would give a few back and say he had given everything back and he hadn't. there is no comparison really. so we'll see how all the legal processes go and where that leaves us when we get closer to the election, but, again, it did show with that very pro-trump audience at the town hall, it showed that he is still the

dominant figure in the party and where is ron desantis? what is he doing? what is he saying? will he get in the race at all and if he does what are his prospects while trump is sort of getting the old band together? >> and just in case our audience is confused by donald trump invoking chinatown all the time, that's where some of the -- chinatown and washington, d.c. in an office is where some of the boxes were stored, but donald trump and others present it as something nefarious connected to the chinese government or something. it's chinatown in washington, d.c. so, jen, you were there with joe biden when he ran against donald trump in 2020. obviously a little bit of a different thing here in 2024 because when you all were running donald trump had not yet led an attempted coup against the government, january 6 had not yet happened, all of those things that we now have to deal with and are in the equation. from your month of view from talking to your old friends who are in the white house or working on the campaign, how is

president biden, how is his team looking at this race differently than the previous one against donald trump? >> such a good question, willie, i mean, that's what it's all about. first of all, you've heard the white house team, my former colleagues there, preview kind of what some of the messages are going to be, competence versus chaos, right, which basically means, look, joe biden is being president, you can like him, you cannot like him politically, he's trying to do the best job he can possibly do and work on the issues you care about. that over there is crazy town, right? that's chaotic. that is too much for everybody. what we saw at the town hall and i think if you are sitting in the white house right now this is how you take it in, is a lot of that chaos, that crazy, that's just so much over there and elections are often, willie, about how people feel and how people feel in the country. so this is a bit different now because, of course, yes, there are potential additional indictments, there's already one, but it's also about the stakes of a second term and how much worse that could possibly be because then you are looking

at an untethered trump, an untethered trump who is not going to abide by any rules whatsoever. we saw some of that in the town hall. we should default, maybe i'm rooting for putin, all of the insane things he said about democracy. that i think is going to be part of their message, too, the stakes of a second term and how it's worse than a first. >> you know, jonathan lemire, first of all, congratulations on the celtics surviving another day. >> huge. tatum. >> and matt whitlock who has worked for mitch mcconnell, worked for the republican party, he has worked for an awful lot of people inside washington, d.c. and he's a partisan republican, i just mean that he's a tough fighter for the republican party, this is what he said after this performance of trump's the other night. trump's performance tonight had plenty of fun fodder for his biggest fans, but it was toxic nuclear waste for the moderates and independents he and

republicans should be winning. and that just sums up the night. yeah, people inside there loved that donald trump was -- and i will say this -- and you look at twitter, it's so -- i'm sorry, it's kind of funny, right? it's kind of funny these people think that they're getting the best of, quote, the libs. oh, the libs are melting down if they say that donald trump shouldn't go around saying that he can sexual assault people. oh, the libs are melting down because he says putin is a great guy, et cetera. no, libs aren't melting down, the libs are just saying that maybe that shouldn't be broadcast to millions and millions and millions of americans. but it ends up damaging them time and time and time again. as matt said, it is nuclear waste for republicans. you go back and see what i've said over the past year, i've been saying to republicans time and time again, you can win next year's election, but you're not going to do it with donald trump. that's a pretty clear, concise

election and that's what every republican, every republican that has half a brain about politics is thinking. i mean, you look at '22 and you look at just the disaster that was for republicans because when donald trump got involved, almost every time republicans lost. >> what independent or swing voter or undecided voter looked at that the other night and said that's my guy and collateral the suburban women voters who have decided the last few records. so much of what trump said would be repulsive to him and they wouldn't come back to him next time around. to further jen's point if another republican were to emerge as the nominee the dynamics of this race would change but the white house say they believe trump will be there for the republicans in the end and like their chances in this rematch. it allows them, katty, to skirt over some of the vulnerabilities the incumbent president has,

whether it's concerns about the economy, concerns about his age, concerns about the border with title 42 lifting. there are some moments where joe biden, though his legislative record is strong, is vulnerable. polling suggests that. polling suggests that americans aren't totally sold, but they feel like the town hall the other night shows them that they can rerun the 2020 campaign and say, look at that. you don't want that. so my question to you is is that enough? is it enough for joe biden simply to not be donald trump? is that itself a ticket to another four years? >> in my conversations with the white house they're trying very hard not to crow about the fact that it's most likely donald trump who they're going to be running against and not ron desantis who they thought could bring in a broader appeal of independents, but, yeah, they will also say we know the playbook, we ran this in 2020, we beat him in 2020 and we don't frankly think very much has changed. does it allow them to skirt over the elephant in the room which is the age issue which seems to

show up in polling, however fair or unfair it is, it shows up in polling much more as a negative for joe biden than it does for donald trump. no, they also realize they have to address that in the ways in which they present the president out on the campaign trail, in the ways they are all trying to boost kamala harris' approval numbers so she can go out and do some of the heavy lifting during the campaign so they can reassure voters that she is a liable alternative were something to happen to joe biden. they're conscious of all of that but they look at the numbers. if you look at those three states, michigan, arizona and georgia, the republican nominee will have to take all three. joe biden only has to get one of them to get to that magic 270. you look at what happened in that town hall and you wonder about the suburbs of atlanta, the suburbs of phoenix, the suburbs of detroit and you have to think, you know, how does a performance like that go down in those places. >> you're exactly right. the suburbs of atlanta, the suburbs of philly, they're gone.

they're gone. if it's donald trump, they're gone. if it's ron desantis it's up for grabs. the suburbs of detroit, gone. the suburbs of milwaukee, gone. i mean, you go through all that. phoenix, gone. i mean, that's -- that's the dilemma that the republican party is once again facing. they have a guy who may do well in the primary, he was going to lose in the general election. i just want to circle back, gene, though, there was -- abc news "washington post" poll that came out this past weekend and you talk about some of the obama people would always talk about democratic bed wetting. let me tell you something, all the beds in washington, d.c. were wet after that poll came out. the fear and loathing, the tears, the weeping, the gnashing of teeth, what else can i throw on to that pile over one poll. yesterday we showed a poll that showed him -- joe biden at 43% among adults, i think alex said

if you really want to do apples to apples he was at 47% among registered voters, 47% the poll last week had him at 38%, it also had him beating donald trump in a head to head match up. i wonder if we will hear about that for a week. a economist you gov poll shows joe biden's approval rating at 48%, disapproval at 46%. listen, maybe that's an outlier. maybe it's an outlier like the poll last week was an outlier. i'm just wondering if we're going to hear about this poll now going into the weekend with people weeping and crying, or whether democrats are going to say, wait a second, do you know what, this goes up, this goes down. sometimes biden is at 38, two days later he is at 43, one day later he is at 48. i mean, this is -- this is going to be a close race nationally, but everything we're hearing

about if joe biden wins by four percentage points he's going to lose still the electoral college. no. no. no. no. no. national polls don't matter. if you want to know who is going to win, and just add in on this, gene, go to the suburbs of atlanta, go to the suburbs of philly. like trump ain't winning there. he's just not going to win there after performances like this. and, again, maybe another republican candidate will win easily there. donald trump will lose. >> yeah, i absolutely agree. i don't see those suburban voters going for donald trump. the other night certainly hurt trump among most voters as opposed to helping him. like i always said, god gave democrats hands so they could wring them and, again, they're wringing the hands. over that one poll, you know, the "washington post" poll was very good, but every good

pollster has an outlier from time to time and that's starting to look like an outlier poll. we also should understand that polls are snapshots, literal snapshots of a day or a few days in time and, you know, things change. they tend to regress to the mean and the averages say that, yes, joe biden is very likely to beat donald trump i think marginally, more likely after the other night than less likely. >> coming up we will go live to the white house where kristen welker has new reporting on the pressure building at the southern border. how the administration is dealing with the surge of new migrants seeking asylum after the end of title 42. that's just ahead on "morning joe." that's just ahead on "morning joe. i'm your overly competitive brother. check. psych! and i'm about to steal this game from you

just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie. real mature. there are some things that go better... together. burger and fries... soup and salad. thank you! like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. with voya, considering all your financial choices together... can help you make smarter decisions. for a more confident financial future. hey, a tandem bicycle. you can't do that by yourself. voya. well planned. well invested. well protected. - this is our premium platinum coverage map and this is consumer cellular's map. - i don't see the difference, do you?

- well, that one's purple. - [announcer] get the exact same coverage as the nation's leading carrier. starting at $20. consumer cellular. ♪ are you getting the sleep you deserve? well, this is your wakeup call to sleep on a casper mattress obsessively engineered for your best rest. ♪ the thought of getting screened ♪ ♪ for colon cancer made me queasy. ♪

♪ but now i've found a way that's right for me. ♪ ♪ feels more easy. ♪ ♪ my doc and i agreed. ♪ ♪ i pick the time. ♪ ♪ today's a good day. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ i did it my way! ♪ from prom dresses to workouts ask your provider for cologuard. and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination.

the man seen on video putting jordan neely in a choke hold on a subway train will be charged today. officials say daniel penny is expected to be arraigned in manhattan on a count of second degree manslaughter. penny says neely was, quote, aggressively threatening passengers when he stepped in. neely was a subway busker who had a history of mental illness. an on looker recorded when he said penny held neely in a choke hold. only about three minutes of the altercation was captured on video. neely's death was ruled a homicide as a result of that choke hold. in a statement to nbc news penny's lawyers defended his actions on the subway saying, quote, we're confident that once all the facts and circumstances surrounding this tragic incident are brought to bear mr. penny will be fully absolved any any wrongdoing. the incident led to days of protests throughout the city as advocates call for penny's arrest. joining us now msnbc legal

analyst danny cevallos. this is a big talker here in new york city, front page of the daily news, penny is a marine who face this is charge now today. what's your sense of how this plays out? he says this man walked on the train, started threatening people, said i don't care if i live or die and he felt like something bad was about to happen and he put him in the choke hold that ultimately killed him. >> here are a couple points i expect to see in the defense of this case and i think they sob successful, i think you might see an acquittal here. first in new york when it comes to self-defense the state has to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. really what that means is the defendant in new york is not only presumed innocent, they're also presumed justified when they use deadly force because the state has the burden to disprove it. in addition, the marine here can be mistaken in his use of force as long as he actually perceived a threat and, and this may be tricky for him, the use of force was reasonable. there's always a reasonableness element. part three, he is a marine.

that may not play the same in manhattan the way it would, say, in pensacola, but it's something and that is something that i think a jury will -- it will loom large in this case because he is someone who served this country. on the video, this is another point, you see other strangers, not friends of this defendant, but strangers helping out. if i'm on the defense i call those people, everybody in that subway to say, why were you also assisting? well, they probably -- you can infer they also perceived some threat and thought some use of force was necessary. and then finally, and this is the biggest one for any new yorker the key here is going to be getting people on that jury who ride the subway. i ride the subway, i have ridden it for years, i've seen it change over time, pre-pandemic, during the pandemic and now post-pandemic. you probably will hear some version of this argument in closing, the da herein dieted penny, they should have indicted themselves for the way the subways have deteriorated over the years. the time it took for police to

respond to this meant that people riding the subway have to take matters into their own hands. i think that's probably some version of an argument you're going to hear in closing if this case makes it to trial. >> i think what you've heard from some new yorkers, many new yorkers is maybe they've seen this scene play out in their own experience on the subway but why 15 minutes on the choke hold? why did he have to take it to the point where it killed the man when he was already subdued. >> that is a weakness -- that is a strength for the prosecution, it's going to be the reasonableness. they will have to disprove or essentially prove, they have the burden to show that his use of that choke hold was unreasonable given -- and the jury instructions say this -- given what the defendant knew. and that's going to be key. expect them to seize on that. this defendant they will argue knew as a marine that his choke hold was a form of deadly force. he knew because of his training that what he was doing was the same as using a weapon. that's an argument they're going to make because that's what it

says in the jury instructions and the jury instructions guide the entire case. they're going to have to make that argument to the jury and believe me they're going to use use of force experts on both sides, you will see them on both sides, but the state will use them to say that this choke hold was something that he was trained in and he knew that it was deadly. >> danny, it is so interesting, there are a couple of different things going on here that you've brought out that you say will make a big difference. one is the fact that strangers, as you said, were helping. the george floyd case of course people were telling the cops to stop, get up, in other cases we've seen people saying you're killing him, you're killing him. in this case you start with strangers helping, but there will be sort of a sliding scale, won't there? if he had held him in a choke hold for three or four minutes, it's far different than if he prove it was 15 minutes because, again, that just -- again, it's just excessive. again, it all comes down to what

the jury ends up thinking, but talk about these two elements that you've already brought up and how important that's going to be to jury members who -- even jury members who say, man, it's really, really bad in the subway system right now and have their own personal experiences, that's not going to lead them to saying, yeah, but he could have held him for 15 minutes even after he was unresponsive. >> exactly right. that's why the video here is going to be key, and we saw some of that just a minute ago and you see him continuing to struggle. what's interesting is we see this kind of analysis a lot in police use of force cases. we look at different officers when, for example, you see a video of an officer -- several officers jumping on one suspect. there is a use of force analysis there, and police are trained, for example -- they are not trained to say, oh, well, this has to be a fair fight, one officer against one suspect. they're trained to help out their brother and sister officers and all participate in subduing a suspect. so, again, see here is going to

be every witness on that train, especially the people who assisted in subduing this person. if they say at minute 14 he was still posing a threat, he was still flailing, i don't know that that's reasonable based on what i'm seeing in the video, but if they testify to that under oath and they're strangers, they have no interest in helping out this defendant, that's going to make a dig difference, even though they outset 15 minutes does seem like a long time, but you can imagine a scenario if someone poses a threat for that long -- and, by the way, if i'm defending that case i dove that into an argument of where was the nypd during this 15 minutes. >> what is going on in new york city that someone has to subdue a dangerous suspect or a dangerous person for 15 minutes without the help of the nypd? that's the strategy i would use to use that to judo move that, take that strength and make it a weakness if i can. >> so, danny, you're certainly right this case has really resonated with new yorkers, speaks to the changes in the

city and the subway coming out of the pandemic, the raise of visible mental illness as well as some crime and everyone takes the subway, the f train that's my local train. >> it comes right here. >> comes to this building. but to the point there are some people there who are trying to help to subdue the assailant but the video also -- the expanded video shows at least one person yelling at him to stop, saying, look, the man, neely is defecating which is a sign you're using too much force here. i assume that will be central to the prosecution, will that be be used to counting other arguments. >> i way i would argue, just because there's someone videotaping and watching and have an opinion of the force they are not as well situated as someone involved in the wrestling and in the sub do you knowing process who is involved and may be able to better perceive the threat. the mere comments from people taking video who i would argue isn't as strong as people actually involved. and that's the key. it's going to be the other people in that video assisting

with the subduingsubduing. if they testify, i would walk them through you don't have any prior relationship with this defendant, don't have any interest in helping him. no, i was just a stranger on the subway. >> what did you perceive at minute 13, 14 and 15. if they say this guy was still a threat, he was clawing, i don't know, there was no indication there was any weapon, but if they can articulate any kind of threat then that is going to go a long way. you retreat to the point that the state has the burden here, not just any burden, but to disprove self-defense justification beyond a reasonable doubt. the highest burden that we have in the law. >> daniel penny expected to be arraigned today in manhattan criminal court today. he says he was acting in self-defense to protect the people on that train. we will hear from prosecutors that he acted with excessive force. msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos, thanks so much. appreciate it. coming up, we will meet the father/son reporting team from

alabama who just won a pulitzer prize. they helped to uncover police corruption in one small town and they join us straight ahead to explain. "morning joe" is coming back. d o explain. "morning joe" is coming back imma new york hotel. i'm looking for someone who needs a weekend in the city. you hungry? i know a place. it's the city that never sleeps... but hey, if you need a last minute spot... i've got you covered. let's link up at hotels.com ♪ today, my friend you did it, you did it, you did it... ♪ centrum silver is now clinically shown to support cognitive health in older adults. it's one more step towards taking charge of your health. so every day, you can say, ♪ youuu did it! ♪ with centrum silver. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean- not spreadsheets. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire - representative! - sorry, i didn't get that. - oh buddy! you need a hug. you also need consumer cellular.

get the exact same coverage as the nation's leading carriers and 100% us based customer support. starting at $20. consumer cellular. (vo) no matter what type of severe asthma you have... ...tezspire can help you have fewer asthma attacks... ...and breathe better. tezspire is an add-on treatment for people 12 and over. it is not a rescue medication. don't take tezspire if you're allergic to it. allergic reactions may occur and can be serious. rash or eye allergy can happen. don't stop your asthma treatments unless your doctor tells you to. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection

or your asthma worsens. sore throat, joint and back pain may occur. avoid live vaccines. no matter who you are, ask your asthma specialist about tezspire today. i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... ...is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common.

side effects may not appear for several weeks. i didn't have to change my treatment. i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save.

where is the quid pro quo? what are whistleblowers and bank documents showing with alleged bribery and more? >> again, that is a difficult thing to prove. >> i know the republicans said that the smoking gun were these financial records that you were able to subpoena and got your hands on. they show some of the president's relatives were paid more than $10 million from foreign sources between 2015 and 2017. and your party, the republican investigators say that that's proof of influence peddling by hunter and james, but that's just your suggestion. you don't actually have any facts to that -- to that point. you've got some circumstantial

evidence. and the other thing is of all those names the one person who didn't profit is -- there is no evidence that joe biden did anything illegally. >> not at all. that's just a few moments from fox news. and also the "wall street journal" editorial yesterday, the biden family business. we always hear biden crime family. the biden this, the biden that. "wall street journal" editorial page had the biden family business, they went through how members of joe biden's family made money, this is all very shocking i guess to some people on fox news and some people on the trump right because, of course, this is something that donald trump and his family would never do other than 2, 3 billion dollars here or there, but they did it out of office just like the bidens did this out of office. again, talk about the scale of what they're talking about, with the scale of what happened there. this sounds like, of course, what happened with the clintons and all the investigations into the clinton -- the clinton foundation and we heard about

that for years and years and years, and they end of the day all much ado about nothing. this is the end of the "wall street journal" editorial page which has gone after the hunter biden issue very strongly, they conclude by saying there is not a smoking gun here. but there's smoke. so keep investigating. i mean, come on. this is so much like the durham investigation, and i have people who are -- call me every day, right? they will call me every day and will call me on january the 7th, oh, yeah, well, you know, the -- that thing that happened at the capitol yesterday was bad, but why won't the press talk about hunter biden's laptop? tell me about it. tell me about it. tell me about what -- talk about the illegalities and then you say to them if hunter did something wrong he should go to jail, that's how america works. when he goes to jail you will notice democrats won't try to undermine the american judicial

system. they will go, okay, if you can't do the time don't do the crime. for some reason there is a different standard with republicans. for some reason they yell look them up, look everybody up, look their political opponents up, except don't lock donald trump and his family up when what they do is significantly worse. but, anyway, again, "wall street journal" editorial page concludes in their biden family business editorial there is not a smoking gun. we heard steve doozy say the same thing, there is no smoking begun and nothing with joe biden here, either. again, they keep generating this, oh, yeah, one other thing, too, that's very important for these anti-biden people, i don't know if you knew this or not, joe biden fell off a bike. he did. no, donald trump tried to overthrow american democracy, but joe biden fell off a bike.

when joe biden is tired, sometimes, you know, he stuttered his entire life, sometimes his words kind of get slurred together, he doesn't do really well, but donald trump -- donald trump, he tried to overthrow american democracy. he just got found guilty of sexually assaulting a woman and said in the deposition that people like him have had the right to do that for, quote, millions of years. so there you go. gene, all of this nonsense from durham to just absolutely -- a guy that people used to respect who just absolutely humiliated himself trying to prove that the fbi was corrupt ended up humiliating -- again, one more we're going to own the libs turning into a cellphone -- a self own. this brings us to your latest column and you write this part, the leading candidate for the

2024 gop nomination donald trump facing felony charges in manhattan, a civil verdict holding him responsible for sexual abuse, and the possibility of soon being hit with more state and federal charges. republicans would love to be able to tar biden with at least the appearance of illegality, so far, however, biden has had every right to perform the dirt off your shoulder gesture that barack obama borrowed from jay-z. the gop has come up with a whole lot of nothing. we saw that on fox news and again, gene, we saw it in the "wall street journal" editorial that has written extensively about joe biden, the hunter biden laptop, even after this comer investigation that was going to be so devastating to the biden, quote, crime family. they say there's no smoking gun. >> yeah, there's no smoking gun and, i don't know, there's absolutely no smoke anywhere

near joe biden. there may be smoke near hunter biden, and if there is and if he's guilty of something, then he should face justice, but the central allegation of influence peddling that they were essentially selling not just access to biden when he was vice president, but the suggestion that he was taking some actions favorable to people who were giving money to other members of the family or who were employing other members of the family is completely -- there is absolutely not a shred of evidence as fox and friends pointed out. if you have lost fox and friends you really have nothing. there's actually nothing there. we saw the durham investigation which was an embarrassment, this comer investigation so far is a

very deep embarrassment. they're going to keep digging this hole. holes, if you are in one stop digging, but they're going to keep digging and they're not going to really find anything because it's not the biden crime family, it's joe biden has been a public servant for half a century. we've been watching him, we know him, we see him. you can criticize him on a lot of levels if you want to politically, but this is just -- there's just nothing there. >> coming up, we will talk to the top democrat on the house subcommittee for border security, congressman lou correa. "morning joe" is coming right back. correa "morning joe" is coming right back

your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire - representative! - sorry, i didn't get that. - oh buddy! you need a hug. you also need consumer cellular. get the exact same coverage as the nation's leading carriers and 100% us based customer support. starting at $20. consumer cellular. my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala.

nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. and this is ready to go online. ask your asthma specialist any questions? -yeah, i got one. how about the best network imaginable? let's invent that. that's what we do here.

quick survey. who wants the internet to work, pretty much everywhere. and it needs to smooth, like super, super, super, super smooth. hey, should you be drinking that? -it's decaf. because we're busy women. we don't have time for lag or buffering. who doesn't want internet that helps a.i. do your homework even faster. come again. -sorry, what was that? introducing the next generation 10g network only from xfinity. the future starts now.

>> "morning joe" is coming right >> "morning joe" is coming right back ♪ ♪ - why are these so bad? - if i would've used kayak to book our car, we could have saved on our trip instead of during our trip. ughh - kayak. search one and done. ♪ are you getting the sleep you deserve? well, this is your wakeup call to sleep on a casper mattress obsessively engineered for your best rest.

your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire

- this is our premium platinum coverage map and this is consumer cellular's map. - i don't see the difference, do you? - well, that one's purple. - [announcer] get the exact same coverage as the nation's leading carrier. starting at $20. consumer cellular. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪ the all-new chevy colorado is made for more. bring more. ♪ do more. ♪

see more. ♪ and be more. ♪ the all-new chevy colorado. made for more. ♪ from prom dresses to workouts made for more. and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination.

a beautiful, live picture with the sun up, just before 6:00 in the morning, in los angeles. where the lakers are looking to advance to the finals of the western conference. very excited about that. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." just about 9:00 a.m. here in the east. we begin in washington, where today's scheduled meeting between president biden and congressional leaders to discuss the debt ceiling has been postponed. the meet willing happen next

week. speaker kevin mccarthy telling nbc news, all the leaders agreed to the delay because it believe it will be productive for their staffs to meet again and hopefully to make a little progress on this question. let's go right to the white house and nbc news chief white house correspondent kristen welker. kristen, good morning. what more can you tell us? >> reporter: hey, willie. good morning to you. i've been talking to sources here close to the white house and at the white house, saying the fact this has been delayed is a good thing. it's a sign there's been measured progress in these meetings that have been happening daily. at the staff level. basically, the staffers want to be able to bring something to the principals before they sit down and talk again. i'm told that some areas of potential common ground, permitting reform, that's something that senator joe manchin has talked a lot about. as well as clawing back unspent covid relief funds. that's something we heard president biden talk about

earlier this week. the question comes, could they be inching closer to a potential agreement. we've been talking about a parallel track negotiation, where the debt ceiling gets raised. and the debt ceiling where the nation's credit card bill, where republicans also can say, look, we got something in savings, as well. they, of course, have been demanding that any increase in the debt ceiling comes with spending caps or some savings, when it comes to spending. now, in terms of where these negotiations go, president biden has said that he would be willing to postpone or cancel his trip next week to asia. he is planning to be in japan for the g7 summit. i'm supposed to be on that trip with him. and that move would be a double-edged sword. it could send a strong signal to the home front that the economy comes first. on the other hand, itcould roil for some of the closest ally, not going to a critical summit,

at a critical time, with the war in ukraine in its second year. the trip is still on. but we're all on pins and needles. and we anticipate that the next meeting of the principals, the president sitting down with speaker mccarthy come early next week. there were fireworks they had in the beginning of this week. all sides seem to be dug in. there does seem to be measured progress at the staff level. we're watching it really closely, willie. >> that meeting today, postponed. they were nowhere. there was no point to the conversation, if they made no progress, since the last meeting. where does that get them? the white house said, we don't agree to the debate. just raise the debt ceiling and we will talk about the budget. >> the two sides are talking past each other here. it's signaling some willingness to cut spending.

they think it should be a separate conversation. they want to give mccarthy some win. they have agreed to do x, y, z. let's lift this and we'll return to budget conversations. in terms of the meeting, the clock is ticking. it's truism in washington, that often most of the work gets done on the staff level. and as we just said, the progress a little bit, the last couple days from staff. and they believe it's time to bring the principals to the room and things got contentious the other day. particularly between mccarthy and biden. schumer kept to himself. and that's what matters there. they are not ready to put those two men back in the room. they need to have progress first. >> a pressing matter is on immigration policy. title 42 policy ended a few hours ago. the restriction on the public

pandemic health energy, to turn away migrants in the name of public health. according to nbc news, there's as many as 65,000 migrants in northern mexico, waiting to cross into the united states. earlier this morning on "morning joe" we spoke with homeland security secretary, alejandro mayorkas, why this moment has become so intense under president biden. >> a few factors. poverty. violence. corruption. authoritarian regimes. the covid pandemic. extreme weather events. causes of displacement are many. and number two, we are combatting smuggling organizations that spread false conversation, that spread lies, to intending migrants. deceiving them into thinking that the border is open and it is not. and it has not been. last year, we removed, returned

or expelled 1.4 million people. and we are battling the smuggling organizations in an unprecedented way. we have arrested more than 10,000 people involved in smuggling operations. and we are also communicating accurate information to intending migrants. we started a digital campaign only two days ago, that builds on all our other communications. if i had two words of caution to provide to individuals who are thinking to take the dangerous journey, i would say, one, don't take it. use a safe, lawful, orderly path, that we have made available to you. and second, don't believe the smugglers. listen only to official government communications. >> want to get your reaction to

something that happened over night. a judge would have allowed some migrants to allow entry into the country, while they await processing. what sort of impact will that decision have? and will the administration be appealing? >> very harmful ruling. attacking a practice that prior administrations have used. it's not new. let me share with you what happens. the majority of individuals will be removed. when a border patrol facility is overcrowded, we screen and vet the individuals in our custody and we release them for them to go into immigration enforcement proceedings. the department of justice is considering its options. >> kristen, as i said to the secretary in that interview, it's a decades old problem and it's also due, they've had record days.

10,000 people crossing the border illegally. last year, 2 million arrests by border patrol, setting a record there. how with title 42 gone, expiring nine hours ago, is the white house proposing to continue to deal with this situation at the border? >> reporter: well, willie, the backdrop you map out is so important because the numbers have exceeded the administration's own internal projections for how many people, how many migrants would be trying to cross the border this week. this is really a growing crisis. they have sent more troops to the southern border. trying to have more personnel, more processing centers. but they had two years to prepare for this. and clearly, all you need to do is look at the images. the stunning image of the dad carrying a baby in a suitcase, to try to cross the border. and you see that this crisis has not gone away and is only intensifying with the lifting of title 42. now, the question becomes what happens next?

how quickly can they try to deal with this. that court address is saying they cannot impose the patrol policy they were aiming to impose. this is going to be a legal battle. i anticipate moving forward, what you're going to see behind-the-scenes conversations, potentially the president said himself about possibly sending more troops to help with this situation at the border. they're going the need to beef up the processing centers. and then, the messaging, willie, becomes so critical. they've been talking to the president's allies. there cannot be mixed messaging around this. candidate biden seemed to signal that he wanted to have a more humane immigration policy. that's running counter to what's happening right now. that's why you have the dhs saying the border is not open. and taking a step back from all of this, this is coming against the backdrop of the president running for re-election. he is dealing with sagging poll numbers right now.

the administration knows there's immense urgency to get on top of this situation. >> kristen welker at the white house. thanks so much as always for your reporting. joining us now, the ranking member of the house border security and enforcement subcommittee, democratic congressman lou corrella. there's been anticipation of this and expectation from different points of view of what will happen because of it. what are your concerns with title 42 out of the way? >> title 42, i've been traveling to the border for the last few months, visiting the ports of entry. i spoke to the border officers. they tell me that things are essentially under their control. this is a long-term issue. covid-19 has left us with the biggest refugee movement since

world war ii. this is mexico, guatemala, colombia, all reeling from the mass refugee movement. we have to focus on the root causes and make sure we have legal pathways for refugees to come to this country. i pull back and use the ukrainian example. we had refugees from ukraine a few months ago. those refugees are gone. why? we gave them the ability to apply for status from europe. >> i understand that you've been writing about the root causes of this and looking to longer term solutions. right now this, is a political crisis for the white house. every television network is showing american and global international networks covering this, too. the pictures of people swarmed at the border. how long do you think this

particular surge is going to last? we always see an uptick of migrants in spring. how long do you think this particular moment, when there's so many people crossing the border is going to last? when will it die down? >> i can tell you what i've seen. at the border, you have mexican authorities. federal, state, local, working with u.s. authorities, to make sure we come up with a humane system of keeping migrants at the border until they're processed legally. this is a regional problem. irrelevant how long it's going to take, it's important to know that we solve this problem humanely. mexico is working with us. guatemala is working with us. and other countries around the world. this is what we have to do. migrants, refugees, this issue is not going away. even china. the great china economy is

reeling. that's why you have a lot of chinese refugees now. at the border. something we have never seen before. bottom line, let's fix the problem. let's manage it. and cameras didn't show this. cameras didn't show this. we are dealing with it in a safe, orderly manner. >> we had secretary mayorkas. he makes the plea every day, for the need for comprehensive immigration reform coming out of congress. only congress can do this. not speaking about you personally. but what -- in terms of your fellow lawmakers on both sides of the aisle, who seem more likely more prone to score political points on the issue of immigration, particularly as the election ramps up, what do you say to them? do you see any hope that a serious effort can be made this session? >> we need it. last night, we had a debate on this issue. and the republican immigration

solution was to push -- make e-verifying mandatory. they would have exempted farmers. why? there's undocumented workers in this country. you make the employers criminals and you give them a choice. you follow the law and let your crops rot in the fields or you become lawbreakers and continue to harvest our food. a lot of the refugees come to our economy because they require a job. we have to stop being hypocritical. america is the only economy of the world that's hitting on all eight cylinders. we need the workers. we need immigration reform. that has to be part of the whole solution. is it going to happen very soon? i hope so.

ronald reagan was a republican. he understood the problem. and i hope people step up and do the same today. >> it's been 40 years since that legislation. >> it has been 40 years. >> lou correa, we appreciate you being here this morning. thanks so much. >> thank you for your interest. we're following developments in new york city, where the former marine who was seen early last week putting a street artist in a chokehold on the subway, has surrendered to new york city police this morning. daniel penny is expected to be arraigned in manhattan on the count of second-degree murder. stephanie gosk explains how we got here. >> reporter: penny, a marine veteran, put nealy in a chokehold for several minutes to subdue him. nealy, a homeless subway performer and michael jackson

impersonator, had been screaming at passengers, saying he was hungry and ready to die, when penny acted. lawyers for penny says he and other passengers on the train were aggressively threatened by nealy. overnight, releasing a statement saying penny risked his own life and safety, for the good of fellow passengers. we're confident that once all of the facts are brought to bear, mr. penny will be absolved of any wrongdoing. at the time of the incident, penny was questioned and released by police. but the following day, the medical examiner ruled the death a homicide, as a result of compression to his neck. while some are calling penny's actions vigilanteism, others push to homelessness and mental illness in new york city. >> jordan nealy did not deserve to die. all of us must work together to do more for our brothers and sisters struggling with serious mental illness.

>> reporter: nealy, who police say was arrested more than 40 times, was known to be struggling with mental illness, since his mother's murder in 2007. >> hospitalization is a tactic. it's not a plan. jordan had been in the hospital. if you place someone in a hospital, when they're released with no continue of care, it doesn't really help. >> stephanie gosk reporting there. officials say daniel penny expected to be arraigned in manhattan on the count of second-degree manslaughter. other stories following this morning. a federal judge has struck down a law that bans federally licensed dealers from selling handguns to 18-year-olds to 20-year-olds. the virginia judge ruled the measure violates the second amendment. saying, it's not consistent with our nation's history. the law is needed, showing younger people tend to be more impulsive and are responsible for deadly shootings.

the law does not prohibit those under 21 from buying rifles and shotguns, only handguns here. 12 elon musk says he has found a new ceo to take over twitter. the move comes months after he promised to step back from his role. musk did not provide a name. but "the wall street journal" is citing reports and sources, says it is linda yaccarino, our colleague at nbc universal. in a tweet, he wrote he will become twitter's executive chair and chief technology officer, product, software and systems operations. international travels will no longer have to provide proof of administered covid vaccine to enter the united states as of today. the vaccine requirement being lifted, president biden issued a statement, reading in part, considering the progress we've made, and based on the latest guidance from our public health experts, i've determined we no

longer need the air travel restrictions i imposed in 2021. the biden administration announced the change, along with lifting vaccine requirements for federal workers early last week. still ahead this hour, we're following new developments in florida ron desantis' feud with disney. the company ceo, bob iger, accusing officials of retaliation. we'll look at his comments next. . (screaming) defeat allergy headaches fast with new flonase headache and allergy relief! two pills relieve allergy headache pain? and the congestion that causes it! flonase headache and allergy relief. psst! psst! all good! ♪ flonase headache and allergy relief. with wet amd, sometimes i worry my world is getting smaller because of my sight. but now, i can open up my world with vabysmo. vabysmo is the first fda-approved treatment for people with wet amd that improves vision and delivers a chance

for up to 4 months between treatments. which means doing more of what i love. ♪ vabysmo is the only treatment designed to block 2 causes of wet amd. vabysmo is an eye injection. don't take it if you have an infection or active swelling in or around your eye, or are allergic to it or any of its ingredients. treatments like vabysmo can cause eye infection or retinal detachment. vabysmo may cause a temporary increase in eye pressure after receiving the injection. although uncommon, there is a potential risk of heart attack test test test test test test test test test t test test test ance for up to 4 s between treatments with vabysmo. ask your doctor. for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are positive for acetylcholine receptor antibodies, it may feel like the world is moving without you. but the picture is changing, with vyvgart. in a clinical trial, participants achieved improved daily abilities with vyvgart added to their current treatment.

and vyvgart helped clinical trial participants achieve reduced muscle weakness. vyvgart may increase the risk of infection. in a clinical study, the most common infections were urinary tract and respiratory tract infections. tell your doctor if you have a history of infections or if you have symptoms of an infection. vyvgart can cause allergic reactions. the most common side effects include respiratory tract infection, headache, and urinary tract infection. picture your life in motion with vyvgart. a treatment designed using a fragment of an antibody. ask your neurologist if vyvgart could be right for you. narrator: it's called, “shared leadership.” driven by each community in a groundbreaking setting: california's community schools.

where parents and families, students and educators, make decisions as one. creating the school and shaping futures - together. based on the needs of their students... ...steeped in local culture. curriculum from cyber security to gardening. and assisting families with their needs: wellness centers, food pantries, and parental education. california's community schools: reimagining public education. our customers don't do what they do for likes or followers. their path isn't for the casually curious. and that's what makes it matter the most when they find it. the exact thing that can change the world. some say it's what they were born to do... it's what they live to do... trinet serves small and medium sized businesses... so they can do more of what matters. benefits. payroll. compliance. trinet. people matter.

during disney's earnings call on wednesday, ceo bob iger addressed the company's feud with florida governor ron desantis. nbc news correspondent gabe gutierrez has details. >> reporter: as speculation mounts over his potential run for president, florida's republican governor ron desantis is facing even more pushback from disney. disney ceo bob iger responding when asked about the company's fight with the state of florida. >> this is about one thing and

one thing only. that's retaliating against us for taking a position about pending legislation. we believe that in us taking that position, we are merely exercising our right to free speech. >> reporter: while iger says disney still plans to invest 17 $ billion over the next ten years at walt disney world, he pointedly asked this question. >> does the state want us to invest more, employee more people and pay more taxes or not? >> reporter: the battle began last year when disney opposed the parental rights in education act that desantis signed that opponents labeled a "don't say gay" law. it banned teaching gender identity or sexual orientation in florida classrooms. desantis is now trying to get rid of disney's deal to allow the company to govern itself. iger accusing florida of one fairly targeting disney, saying of the nearly 2,000 other special districts in the state

have not faced the same scrutiny. desantis is not backing down, telling newsmax last week -- >> can't have a situation where the legislature has spoken and one company just decides to contract out against the will of the people. at the end of the day, i think they just have to understand the party is over for them. >> reporter: in conservative lake county, florida, some 40 miles from disney, many tell us they support their governor. >> definitely on desantis' side. go woke, go broke. >> reporter: others doubt whether desantis's record matches his rhetoric. >> he's going around saying he's made us for free. he hasn't. >> governor desantis still riding this train. that interview with newsmax was just last week. you can't overstate how wild it is to continue to attack the biggest private employer in the state that generates billions of

dollars, obviously, in tourism and tax revenue. this remains a very odd fight to have picked. >> this fight hasn't started making more sense. we know disney's role in florida, not just an icon and symbol of the state, but a huge employer. he has taken a lot of criticism from other republicans saying, first of all, you want to fight with mickey mouse? you lose that split screen every single time. that's not the party that interferes with private business. they shouldn't be doing that. just an effort to prove points, be anti-woke, whatever it is, but it's contributing to such a sputtering start to his potential presidential campaign. we do think he's going to jump in officially in the next couple of weeks, but he's well back in the pack. >> following two presidential elections where misinformation

became mainstream, technology experts say the problem could be even more difficult to tackle in 2024 because of the rise in artificial intelligence. daniella peer bravo is telling that story. >> three, two, one. >> reporter: the 1964 image that would test the limits of political advertising. >> to make a world in which all of god's children can live, or to go into the dark. >> reporter: a scare tactic from president johnson intended to influence voters against barry goldwater. just last month the republican national committee rolling out an attack ad of its own, except this time artificial intelligence is the producer. >> who's in charge here? >> the 2024 election is going to really be all about a.i. tools. they're going to be brutal with

them. they're going to misinform and sell people on fantasies in order to get votes. they're going to use these tools to make hollywood quality footage that's going to scare people. >> reporter: so far there's no federal regulation in the u.s. that requires campaigns to be transparent about using a.i. in their ads, leaving voters to decipher what's real and what's not. like this address from president biden that never happened. >> i have received guidance from general milley, chairman of the joint chiefs, that the recommended way forward will be to invoke the selective service act, as is my authority as president. >> reporter: days before former president trump was indicted, fake a.i.-generated photos showing his arrest went viral. >> we can hope that people will be more skeptical, but there's also a scenario here where nobody trusts anything. >> reporter: in venezuela, a.i. generated news was used to spread misinformation on the

country's economy. the video garnered hundreds of thousands of views on youtube, even shared by state-run media. >> how true is it that venezuela is such a poor country? has the media exaggerated things in that place? >> i don't know if democracy can function if nobody trusts anyone around there's no common ground. actually what dictators want is to get people to where nobody trusts anything. we're going to have to learn to be more skeptical, to realize that seeing is no longer believing. it's like the difference between having a knife and a sub machine gun. we always had misinformation, but this scale is completely new. >> reporter: new a.i. tools could help political campaigns operate more officially, making it easier to draft e-mails, target fund-raising efforts and voter outreach. >> i'm optimistic about a.i. it's another tool in the campaign toolbox that can allow for a lot of creative content.

>> reporter: betsy hoover is the founder of a firm that invests in political technology for campaigns. she gave us a first look at an a.i.-tool that optimizes fund-raising using technology similar to chatgpt. >> you think about a new candidate running against an incumbent. if they're really promising, breaking through is very hard to do with fewer resources. this is an equalizer in that way as long as people can figure out how to use it productively. >> it would definitely help candidates to engage more quickly. that can mean more volunteers, fund-raising. but it all has to be used correctly. all these tools can make you really popular really fast, but they could also make you really unpopular very fast.

>> a.i. is touching our lives in so many ways and it's happening so fast. when you think about it in terms of politics and the deep fake ad that was put out that shows joe biden saying something he was not saying, that is a fear people have. something gets up on social media saying the president of the united states -- i won't even put out some of the things he could say that could launch a global crisis. >> yeah. i think when you put the balance that daniella was trying to lay out there, on one hand it allows more money to go into politics more effectively. on the other hand, it gives a powerful tool to those who want to disrupt democracy. we know, for example, from the 2016 election that countries like russia have been basically trying to sow discord and distrust of democracy. they want to make people afraid

that what they're hearing is not true, to make it look like it's chaotic and unreliable. well, these kinds of a.i. tools do that on steroids. we could look at those trump photos before his arrest and think, oh yeah, that doesn't look quite true. but it'll get better. the technology gets better every week. the generated images will get better every week. it will become harder and harder for us, even those of us in the industry. if we can't all tell, then how on earth is the average voter going to be able to tell. >> it will be fascinating to watch how this is deployed and reined in. there's been talk of legislation to slow this down due to some of the warnings we've seen. our next guests are part of the team that won the 2023 pulitzer prize in local

reporting. we're speak with the father and son duo who just won that honor straight ahead on "morning joe." straight ahead on "morning joe."

mass general brigham -- when you need some of the brightest minds in medicine. this is a leading healthcare system

with five nationally ranked hospitals, including two world-renowned academic medical centers. in boston, where biotech innovates daily and our doctors teach at harvard medical school and the physicians doing the world-changing research are the ones providing care. ♪♪ there's only one mass general brigham. bridgett is here. ♪♪ she has no clue that i'm here.

she has no clue who's in the helmet. are you ready? -i'm ready! alright. xfinity rewards creates experiences big and small, and once-in-a-lifetime. (cheering) imagine you're doing something you love. rsv could cut it short. rsv is a contagious virus that usually causes mild symptoms, but can cause more severe infections that may lead to hospitalizations, in adults 60 and older - and adults with certain underlying conditions, like copd, asthma, or congestive heart failure. talk to your doctor and visit cutshortrsv.com.

welcome back to "morning joe." beautiful shot at 6:35 in the morning of the great city of seattle, where the kraken play tomorrow night against the stars. they're down 3-2 in that series. a father and son duo was reported the pulitzer prize for uncovering extreme corruption within a small town police force in alabama. the journalists revealed practices at the brookside police department accused of using aggressive means to increase fines and charges as a way to boost the town's rereven. the police force in one year reportedly increased the number of traffic citations by more than 600% to make money. that story was honored with a pulitzer in local reporting. joining us now ramsey archibald and his father columnist john archibald, two of the members of that team that won the pulitzer. congratulations to you both.

john, what was that phone call like the other day? >> oh my god, it was crazy. but the truth is as soon as i got the phone call, we were watching the pulitzer prize ceremony on the laptop. my wife was yelling, get off the phone, get off the phone? [ laughter ] it was kind of interesting. >> ramsey, is it true that your dad initially said he's had a long career, almost 40 years as a journalist, he said maybe try a different profession? >> no. he didn't discourage me. he also didn't push me into it. i definitely knew, you know, the state of the industry and what it was going to be like. well, maybe i didn't know because i certainly could not have expected this. >> tell us how you got on this story. it's a small town, small police

department. huge numbers, really important work. how did it begin? >> it started as a tip. it actually came to my dad. he might be able to tell you more about it. someone basically said, hey, you guys ought to look into this brookside place because something's going on. obviously something was going on, so it all led to this. you could probably tell more about it. >> please do. >> yeah. we started out trying to tell the story about criminalization of poverty, which is a giant issue we really care about and is really important in our state and really difficult to get people to buy into to read. but this place is using fines and fees to supply half of their town revenue. this is a town of 1253 people that has one retail store, a

dollar general, and some of the atrocities that were going on, i mean, wreckers would arrive at the same time as the police officers in order to tow cars on the side of the road, compiling charges on. the miraculous thing that happened is people did start to understand what that issue was, which was the greatest thing in the world, greater even than being able to share a pulitzer prize with your kid. so we hope it was sort of like to help to understand the issue of fines and fees. >> this is your dad's second pulitzer. is there something about alabama that makes it a great breeding ground for fantastic investigative reporting. >> they certainly make it easy on us at times. speaking of the previous

pulitzers, i don't think it's an accident that it's in alabama. obviously we're surrounded by incredibly talented people and these stories don't come out without their hard work. >> there were several in the pulitzer running outside of us that had alabama connections. we like to say you can't swing a dead cat around here without hitting a pretty good story. we think we hit one. >> al.com, i follow you guys, subscribe. you do great work. winner of the pulitzer prize in local reporting, father and son, john and ramsey archibald. congratulations. coming up next, our next guest is marking 50 years on broadway.

toe va if he would shoe joins the table next. if he would sho the table next trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing] ...copd sitting down. ♪it's a new dawn,...♪ ♪...it's a new day,♪ it's time to make a stand. ♪and i'm feelin' good.♪ start a new day with trelegy. no once-daily copd... ...medicine has the power to treat copd... ...in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler,... ...trelegy makes breathing easier for a full 24 hours, improves lung function, and helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler... ...for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating,... ...vision changes, or eye pain occur. take a stand, and start a new day with trelegy. ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy... ...and save at trelegy.com.

♪ ♪ why are there two extra seats? ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy... are we getting a dog? a great dane? two great danes?! i know. giant uncle dane and his giant beard. maybe a dragon? no, dragons are boring. twin sisters! and one is a robot and one is a knight. and i'll be on the side of... the octopus. rawr!!! the volkswagen atlas. more room for possibilities. hey, dad. i got an a on my book report. that's cool. and i went for a walk in the woods and i didn't get a single flea or tick on me. you are just the best. -right? i'm great. -you are great. oh, brother. this flea and tick season, trust america's #1 pet pharmacy. chewy.

my mental health was much better, but i struggled with uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia. td can be caused by some mental health meds. and it's unlikely to improve without treatment. i felt like my movements were in the spotlight. ingrezza is a prescription medicine to treat adults with td movements. ingrezza is different. it's the simple, once-daily treatment proven to reduce td that's #1 prescribed. people taking ingrezza can stay on their current dose of most mental health meds. ingrezza 80 mg is proven to reduce td movements in 7 out of 10 people. don't take ingrezza if you're allergic to any of its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including sleepiness. don't drive, operate heavy machinery, or do other dangerous activities until you know how

ingrezza affects you. other serious side effects include potential heart rhythm problems and abnormal movements. it's nice people focus more on me. ask your doctor about #1 prescribed, once-daily ingrezza. learn how you could pay as little as zero dollars at ingrezza.com ♪ ingrezza ♪ for copd, ask your doctor about breztri. breztri gives you better breathing, symptom improvement, and helps prevent flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vison changes, or eye pain occur. if you have copd ask your doctor about breztri. this week is your chance to try any subway footlong for free. like the subway series menu. just buy any footlong in the app, and get one free. everyone loves free stuff chuck. can we get peyton a footlong? get it before it's gone.

on the subway app. he was recruiting for the jewish brigade to fight against the turks and free palestine for jews to settle. he said the jew's homeland must be a model for the redemption of human rights. i was young. it seemed reasonable. >> that is tovah feldshuh portraying golda. she will celebrate 50 years on broadway. she's currently in her tenth broadway show in "funny girl." so nice to meet you. welcome. >> so nice to meet you. >> you've done a lot in your career, but i imagine this has to be one of the highlights to get to play rosie bryce in

"funny girl". >> what's a highlight is to spend over two-thirds of my life with new york audiences. i was born on 93rd and lexington. i'm a new york city kid. i was brought up in the suburbs with my parents. my mother was from 955 walton avenue. she was born on the dining room table in 1911. on her 12th birthday, april 18th, 1923, yankee stadium opened. babe ruth beat the red sox. >> there is something so special about broadway. you don't have to be from new york to appreciate that. what is it like to have been part of this community for all these decades and to be at the top of your game the entire time? >> i learned this year that 1% of our union make it to

broadway. so the level of expertise on broadway is so astonishing, just to be flanked by that level of artistry is you are living the dream in a profound sense because you're surrounded by work that's so remarkable whether it's on the stage of the august wilsonwilson. we also owe a debt to barbra streisand because she established the legend of this show that could not be successfully done for 60 years. and we did it, willie. >> you've been living the dream for 50 years on broadway. what are the things that still excite you, that still delight

you about doing this? >> the most important thing is the audience, that when you're in a run, and i've now done 250 performances, truth to tell i have a music stand stage right and stage left with the scripts, so i do the show twice a night. i do it at that study stand to get in the tunnel. then i go and try to knock it out of the park on the stage. because this is somebody's first broadway show and this is somebody's last broadway show. i owe it to them. the black velvet of the houses in new york, we have 1283 seats. i've played philly, boston, london, sydney, johannesburg. ain't nothing like the new york audience. new york audiences are hot. people come in from all over the country to see us. it is our job to deliver, to move them, to give them a story

well told around an ancient campfire called the theater. and we're live. you can get away with a lot less when you're live. >> i want to ask you about the memoir you wrote. it's a mother/daughter story, and it does tie into the character you're playing. >> it does indeed. it's number one in parent relationships on amazon. when i was asked to write a celebrity autobiography, i said let me write about something universal, which is my mother, who lived to 103, and my relationship with her and the rainbow of our relationship. it started out quite distant and we eventually became treed that bowered together. every chapter is a scene.

in between each scene what an end one, where you put the shallow curtain down and the actor comes out in front and does a tap dance as they're changing the scenery. so in between every chapter is a story about my career, whether it's with rudy giuliani, the supreme court justice i had the honor of playing, or golda. sho have a good marriage, just shut one eye. one of her many -- >> maternal wisdoms. she also said, this is brilliant, if you fall in with man or woman, if you fall in love with somebody, don't walk, run to the parents' house, if it doesn't feel like a warm bath,

it's a red flag. >> words to live by. >> and i'm married 46 years. >> there you go. this weekend is mother's day. a good time to pick up that book. tomorrow is may 13th, 1973, i made my debut on broadway at the palace theater with christopher plummer, 50 years ago tomorrow night. >> congratulations. >> thank you, jonathan, thank you, willie. >> and in such a wonderful show. she is an icon. funny girl is playing at the august wilson theater here in new york city. tovah feldshuh, so good to spend time with you. we'll be right back with "morning joe." i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel,

rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can dramatically relieve ra and psa symptoms, including fatigue for some. it can stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. done settling? ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. and take back what's yours. learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu.

♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪♪ allergies don't have to be scary. (screaming) defeat allergy headaches fast with new flonase headache and allergy relief! two pills relieve allergy headache pain? and the congestion that causes it! flonase headache and allergy relief. psst! psst! all good!

a little johnny cash when we come in with a view of los angeles at 6:54. the defending champ golden state warriors go to the -- what's it called? the crypto dot something, something. whatever that arena is called to take on the lakers and lebron who can close out the champs tonight. think they can do it? >> i sadly do. draymond green, a free agent, he may leave, and this would be lebron, you know, headed to the conference finals with a chance at an 11th finals appearance. he would have to get through

nikola jokic. >> the knicks got to win game six. katty kay, i want to wish you a very happy mother's day. i hope you have a great weekend. your i hope your family has a lot dialed up. >> my kids are spread out not just around the united states but around the world. if you could just send out a global reminder, willie, that would be very helpful. >> it was addressed to you but it was really for everyone. time to get moving. get the flower orders ready. this weekend on nbc sunday today, my guest will be academy award winner jessica chastain. we were just talking about broadway. jessica is nominated now also for a tony award for her performance in the revival of the play "a doll's house," jessica chastain this weekend on "sunday today." that does it for us this morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a final quick break. rage after a final quick break.

- what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - are you a certified financial planner™? - i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. get refunds.com powered by innovation refunds can help your business get a payroll tax refund, even if you got ppp and it only takes eight minutes to qualify. i went on their website, uploaded everything, and i was blown away by what they could do. getrefunds.com has helped businesses get over a billion dollars and we can help your business too. qualify your business for a big refund in eight minutes. go to getrefunds.com to get started. powered by innovation refunds. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis keeps flaring, put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable, i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. and left bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc got in my way, i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when my gastro saw damage,

rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting, steroid-free remission. and a chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check. check. and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there, with rinvoq. ask your gastro about rinvoq. and learn how abbvie could help you save.

- booked our trip to vegas! ask your gastro about rinvoq. - in this economy? what are we, rich?! ♪ ♪ are we rich? oh, what a relief. no more secretly renting the attic to that scary lodger that i met at the reservoir. - we're not rich... i used kayak to compare hundreds of travel sites to get a great deal on our flight, car, and hotel. (loud rustling and clanking from the attic) - who goes to the reservoir?! - kayak. search one and done. trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control.

now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. talk to your asthma specialist to see if once-monthly nucala may be right for you. and learn about savings at nucala.com there's more to your life than asthma. find your nunormal with nucala. hello on this friday, thanks so much for being here. it is 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york, and we are following breaking