>> coming up, on the second hour of ayman, trump says he plans to pardon a large portion of insurrectionists while alabama senator tommy tuberville calls white nationalist, quote, americans. whoa right wing extremism is becoming increasingly normalized in this country. plus, as the debt ceiling crisis creeps closer to reality, what are republicans real priorities? and if you have never heard of them, autocratic capture. we are going to explain how ron desantis is easing it with his war on disney. i'm ayman mohyeldin. let's get started. ♪ ♪ ♪ the texas department of public

safety confirmed this week that the man who murdered eight people at the dallas area mall harbored neo-nazi indications. he had essence wants to get tattoos on his body, posted racist, homophobic and misogynistic streets squeezed online that praise the far-right, and wore patch during his killing spree that red rwds, an acronym that means right-wing death squad. -- right-wing extremist ideation has become the motivating force behind a lot of violent attacks in this country. in fact, we now know that right wing extremists committed every single ideologically driven mass killing identified in the u.s. in 2022 with an unusually high proportion perpetrated by white supremacists, according to a report by the anti-defamation league. we also know that far-right violence is not limited to senseless attacks like mass

shootings. just last week, four members of the proud boys, a designated hate group, were convicted of seditious conspiracy for their roles in the deadly january 6th insurrection in. anthony dimaggio, a leading scholar studying the far-right, says that attitudes towards this kind of ideological violence and january 6th in particular tell us a lot about where we are as a country. in fact, he recently told washington and lee, we believe that january 6th represented a pivotal movement in modern america history. it was not only about right-wing activists coming together, hoping that trump would be the president to impose an authoritarian white nationalist hetero normative christian nationalists social political order. it is also about a sizeable segment of the population that agrees with these goals. to be clear, he's talking about the republican party here. in fact, his data suggests that a sizable number of republicans -- about half to three quarters -- are susceptible to various white nationalist impulses.

and sadly, that's not all that's surprising when you consider the messaging from party leaders. at the cnn town hall just this week, donald trump said that he would pardon, quote, a large portion of the january 6th insurrectionists if he won in 2024. take a look at alabama senator tommy tuberville's comments this week. asked whether he believed white nationalists should be allowed in the military, he said, democrats call them that. i call them americans. i wish i could say that i was surprised by this. what we are witnessing in realtime is not just the normalization of extremism, of white supremacy, of neo-nazi ideologies, but the widespread acceptance of those ideas and one of america's two political parties. joining me now are katherine stewart, author of the power worshippers, inside the dangerous rise of religious nationalism, and rich benjamin, author of searching for

whitetopia, an improbable journey into the heart of white america. it's great to have you both on the show. katherine stewart, i'll start with you. we have a host of conservative pundits this week seizing on the fact that the texas mall shooter was hispanic, to argue that he could not actually be a true neo-nazi, a true white nationalist. i mean, what is your reaction to that? and can you help us explain why there is a growing number of hispanics pushing white supremacist doctrine? >> well, that's absurd to say that he can't be a neo-nazi. he is a neo-nazi. for many folks who fall prey to this kind of ideology, it's really about identity more than race. and listen, someone like him might be dismissed as a lone actor. but he was radicalized by the type of disgraceful propaganda that has frankly become a feature of the right. some folks will similarly dismiss proud boys and patriot front folks and oath keepers as

a bunch of marginal guys wearing camo and showing off their firearms. but here is the thing. this ideology that these groups are espousing is really just a low brow version, i would say, of bad identity politics that -- and far-right ideology that the mainstream might have been pushing for years. we can link it directly to the talking points on fox news, stuff that tucker carlson used to repeat every night. but we can also link it to supposedly respectable think tanks, right wing think tanks, like the clermont claremont institute, which have been dumping rounds for racialized and -- maga apologetic's -- the question is, what is wrong with the republican party? and will it change or is it in a sort of dual loop? it's really sold itself to white nationalists, and i'm not going to disavow these extremist or pushback on them,

because unfortunately that's become a substantial part of their base. >> rich benjamin, take a look at the data from early highs market institute. they found out less than 1% of americans identify as fascist. only 4% identify with neo-nazis. and yet, this is the interesting part. nearly half of republicans signal support for the great replacement theory, and for prioritizing a white national identity. is this a hang-up on terminology distracting us from how extreme the gop has become? because we are trying to use this these labels. but people may not be familiar that the ideology is permeating spreading more into the republican party than the terminology. >> yes, ayman. i do very much think it's a hang-up on language. but i also think it has to do with delusion and the -- one presents. the reason i say that is because i have a baseline. in 2009, i visited and lived in

the fastest growing, whitest, most conservative communities in america. and since then there has been a sea change. back then, at least they were -- to support diversity. -- espouse democratic values in america. but now after trump so much has changed that they are willing to throw that delusion away and to say explicitly, we support a quote unquote mcgovern xin of america that is white nationalist, that is christian, quote unquote, that is telling women what to do with their reproductive health. and the main -- into personal view, because i like women, because i have this or that black, or this or that latino, or this or that -- i personally am not a -- or bigot. but they very much support all the views, in terms of the wall, in terms of anti-immigration

hostility, in terms of church or state viewpoints that are very much in line with a white nationalist agenda. and the final thing i will say about that is, it might have been inconceivable that such republicans would have supported january 6th back in 2009. maybe birtherism would be where they hold the line on their bigotry. but now, for them to blatantly support skirting the law, skirting democracy, in order to maintain this false nostalgic vision of america that they have, i think that's been a huge sea change. >> katherine, let's talk about senator tuberville from alabama and his apparent defense of white nationalists in the military this week. first, he defended them, just by saying, quote, americans. and then responding to criticism from those remarks, he said, quote, you think a white nationalists is a nazi? i don't look at it like that. i look at the white nationalists as a trump republican. that is what we are called all

the time, a maga person. so, we are, apparently, at this point, they are acknowledging their white nationalists and that they are equating white nationalism with trump republicanism even in the eyes of republican lawmakers themselves, like tuberville. >> that's right. we have to remember that we are the victims of gaslighting here. we need to remind ourselves that this is not normal. state senators like tuberville should not be defending white nationalists or white ceramicists. trump should frankly not have been given fawning treatment on cnn as though he were a normal candidate. it is not good enough to say a lot of people still like him. it's not normal, acceptable or reasonable to have this coup attempt leader and anything other than the state of shame awaiting a fair trial. >> rich benjamin, is the gop base radicalizing their leaders? or are the leaders radicalizing their base?

>> hand in glove, they are perfectly happy to do that. and when we say leaders, we are not just saying trump. we can't just make him the scapegoat. we are talking about state level leaders. we are talking about u.s. senators who are radicalizing the base and, in all honesty, when we look at the base kind of giving the leaders permission and -- the leash into how far they can go in white nationalist rhetoric, the politicians are perfectly happy to take the lead. and so, it's really a hand in glove scenario, where the grassroots republican leaders are emboldening the base. and conversely, the base is telling the leaders, go farther, go farther, go farther. and the difference, i might say, between now and 2009 -- and this is all coordinated. it's coated with right-wing corporate media. it's coordinated with the internet. it's coordinated with the rnc.

coordinated with state local parties. i think it's a terrible state of affairs. >> a terrible state of affairs, a vicious cycle and a very dangerous situation for our country that we do not seem to be able to get under control, at least certainly not at this moment in our time frame. rich benjamin and katherine stewart, thank you to the both of you. i greatly appreciate your insights. can democrats -- kevin mccarthy and prevent the country from defaulting on its debt? my next guest might have a secret weapon. but first here, jessica layton is here with the headlines. >> thank, you ayman. >> -- he met with pope francis at the vatican earlier. the two leaders discussed plans for ending the war on ukraine. they also spoke about efforts to bring back the ukrainian children who were forcibly deported to russia. voters in turkey head to the polls on sunday for an election that could end a two decade role of president erdogan. if no candidate wins the majority, it will trigger a second runoff for the top two

vote getters. and at least one person was killed and nearly a dozen others injured after a tornado hit southern texas. the ef1 category tornado caused extensive damage to homes and power lines in that area. i'm jessica layton. more ayman with ayman mohyeldin after the break. after the break. it's only $35 a line. (vo) save big during our spring savings event, and get the disney bundle with disney+, hulu, and espn+ included. all for just $35 a line. verizon a mystery! jessie loves playing detective. but the real mystery was her irritated skin. so, we switched to tide pods free & gentle. it cleans better, and doesn't leave behind irritating residues. and it's gentle on her skin. case, closed! it's gotta be tide. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪

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congress to act on the dutch dealing. the leaders in washington have until june 1st to raise the debt limit or risk default.

we will put that align into perspective for you. june 1st is just 20 days away. but the house is only in session eight of those states and the senate only seven. so with time quickly running out, why was a meeting between president biden and top congressional leaders scheduled for friday abruptly postponed until next week? several people familiar with the discussions tell political the delay was a positive development days time talks between the white house and hill staffers and are getting momentum, and that momentum is much needed. a new report from the white house economist sworn an extended default could wipe out more than 1 million jobs and cause severe economic damage. the ripple effect swimming mortgages, credit cards, and other purchases much more expensive for most americans. in the face of these catastrophic consequences democrats have been taking steps to deploy possible secret weapons. a backup plan of sorts that has been in the works for months. back in january, congressman mark desaulnier, a democrat

from california introduced a piece of legislation called breaking the gridlock act. that bill has not untouched until now. by using something called a discharge petition, democrats with the help of a few republicans could bypass gop leaders and force a democratic proposal to resolve the debt limit crisis. congressman mark desaulnier joins me now. thank you for making time for us. explain to us what this is all about and actually even before that give me your reaction to this postponement of the meeting. are you as optimistic as some have suggested that a deal can be reached by june 1st? >> i think it is a good sign. we have been through this so many times with this caucus. these republicans. that we just have to be very careful and we have to be responsible. that is why we introduced this bill. >> as i mentioned, sir, democrats have a backup plan in the works that is your bill.

your party can start gathering signatures for that discharge petition on may 16th. in order for that to succeed he will need all of the democrats in your caucus and at least five republicans. three senior democratic aides have told the post that there are still some democrats who are hesitant about the plan. ? >> it allows a majority of the house to place a bill in front of the house without seeking approval from the speaker and leadership. we would need five republicans to join every democrat in order to do that. but with this vehicle we need to have because we get up closer, i think, i hope for the sake of the country that there are five responsible republicans. all we would do is, ask the president has insisted on, is do a clean debt limit extension as has been done 78 times in this country.

>> let's talk about a possible 14th amendment action, if you will. the president has yet to rule out the use of the 14th amendment. would you support action taken by the administration that doesn't involve congress. should we be considering a longer term solution to address that limit instead of kicking the can down the road? >> i prefer to have a functioning congress. not driven by a small group of very, very radical, in my view people on the far-right. so not having that, we could explore every possible option that is by the rules. i am a former member of the rules committee. if that turns out to be our best option, then we have to pursue it. you outlined the danger that we have here. seven to 8 million, billion jobs ten trillion jobs worth of loss in the united states and

increase of the unemployment rate when the economy is doing well for people as we bring inflation down and bring wages up. >> let me switch gears if i can for a moment and get your thoughts about title 42. we are expecting the border crossings to increase over the coming days and weeks. but immigration is not a new issue or a new challenge for this country. could this crisis lead to a momentum for lawmakers to finally come up with a solution, or come to the table on immigration reform? >> i hope so. we have to. it is a classic example in addition to the physically responsibility. but there was a bill that we all know about ten years ago, the game of eight, for republicans and for democrats, john mccain, senator rubio, senator durbin, and schumer, and others had a bipartisan bill that came out of the senate that would address this issue. but then steve bannon and

others in the freedom caucus decided that they would use this very racial unethical process to divide the country. i would hope that we would get back to the bipartisan solution that we had ten years ago. >> before we go, sir, you said on the house ethics committee, you have congressman george santos who was just indicted by federal prosecutors for fraud. your committee has opened a formal investigation into the congressman as well. are there any updates on that investigation that you can share with us and what do you make of speaker mccarthy refusing to call on santos to resign even after he admitted to what he did in brazil and the indictment from the justice department? >> i am afraid i'm sorry, i cannot comment on that. the bipartisan ethics committee, an equal number of members on both sides, we are looking at it as appropriate but i can comment on the process right now. >> all right congressman mark desaulnier, thank you for your time, always appreciate it, thank you sir. >> thank you.

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stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ >> the end of title 42, a covid era policy that allowed the u.s. to expel migrants without considering them for asylum has led to confusion and desperation along the southern border. many migrant families are now rushing to embark on a harrowing journey in search of a better life. one young family chose to leave venezuela for the u.s. months ago. kwan and their two children who are only three and four years old travel through the jungle for days before they were attacked and robbed. they say three women in their large margarine group were raped during their journey.

spent three weeks trying to schedule an appointment with border officials. using what the white house has touted as a legal way to schedule meetings with officials. after all of that they chose to cross into the u.s. and were eventually processed by the border patrol. now they are settling in as they await the next steps in the migration process. joining me now is someone who is nonprofit supports migrant families like this one. the president and ceo of the lutheran immigration and refugee service. she's also a former foreign policy director to michelle obama. it is going to have you with us. thank you so much for your time. immigration advocates and politicians have had their hands full for years. trying to undo this immigration policy that was put in place by trump. but we have not seen significant reform in decades. what do you want to see the biden administration tackle? >> i really appreciate you having me. that is a great question. because i do think that it

isn't important to understand just ten years ago, we actually had 68 votes for comprehensive immigration reform, so when we hear these discussions that reforms futile, i think it ignores a recent reality that we have had politically in the past. i think that part of it is going to require us to open up more legal pathways for family reunification for refugee resettlement. for economic the says, because those are pathways that we've always allowed immigrants into this country and frankly, especially when it comes to an economic d says, having 10 million jobs that are unfilled right now, we know that immigration is going to be part of how we have a vibrant workforce, that will allow us to keep things like medicare and social security afloat. it is also important to understand that the salem asylum can only be exercise when they come to the u.s.. so when we are talking about the southern border, yes it is great to create other legal

pathways but we have an obligation by the u.s. and international law to make sure that they have a way to access and to have their day in court. >> on the gop side we are seeing states like texas use aggressive tactics in arresting migrants on the florida-appointed judge temporarily blocking president biden's border policy that would released migrants on parole. what do you make of the contrast between how the two parties are reacting to these developments? >> i think that it is reflective of the dynamics that we see these days and the recent past where one party decided to weaponize the issue and the other party has perhaps not been as full footed in their defense of immigration as both the right thing and the smart thing to do for our country. governor desantis just this week signed one of the most restricted immigration bills to date and it would make it a

felony to bring someone into the state and it orders hospitals to collect immigration status and it allocates an additional $12 million for the transport of migrants to other states. so when we saw the political stunt sending a families to martha's vineyard, we should expect to see more of that, unfortunately in the future. >> there is a great deal of disinformation in this country about migrants that obscures how difficult it is to become illegal citizen. can you just walk us through what legal pathways exist now and what work remains ahead of us? >> i think that that is the issue in immigration because i do think that much of my job is fighting with that. oftentimes people in the southern border icing why aren't they not coming the right way? there really is not a right way anymore. it is why we had ukrainian refugees after putin's invasion come to the southern border. that is why you see chinese and indian, others from the western

hemisphere, coming to the southern border because other programs like family reunification take decades to get families to be reunited. economic visas like hitting the jackpot. because it is so difficult to be able to come in that pathway. the settlement under the trump administration went from 110,000 being the target to 15,000 and so a program like that which has always had bipartisan support, we actually had more refugees under republican administrations than democratic ones. it was essentially shut down. that is a problem. what you see at the southern border is not just a local issue. it is the fact that the immigration system here in the u.s. across the board is now -- >> before you go i want to get your thoughts on the work that you're nonprofit supports with migrant families.

you get to see the types of people coming into this country firsthand. and you know, we live in a country where the right-wing and certainly the right-wing media vilifies migrants and even if there is an act by an immigrant, it violent act, it is then used to taint the hundreds of thousands coming in here. but as you saw in our setup that we just mentioned a moment ago, the plate and the struggles of these migrants who are coming into the u.s., what they have endured, whether it is women surviving rape and violence or others, talk to me about the types of people that you see and how common these stories that we profile are similar to what you are seeing? >> it is heart wrenching. but it is also humane. it makes you understand the plight that these parents are facing. we had a client, even as whelan family, where the mother said to us, we were serving her and her children, she explained how

just speaking up against the government puts you in grave danger. all of her children are deaf, so she traveled with her husband and her four children to come to the u.s., we are working to help them get here so that they could hear for the first time in their lives. that is one small example of what parents will do just as any of us would do for our children. so many in our hemisphere are facing young violence, you know, war, political instability, climate disaster, and unfortunately it is only going to get worse. this is where we have an opportunity to lead the charge to do what we have always done in terms of being a nation of immigrants, and to provide these families with refuge, with freedom, and opportunity to raise their children. and it is really, i think, and

empathy we need to have because that is exactly the kind of circumstance where if you see a child, a baby put into a suitcase, you used to cross the border so the baby didn't drown, i get the question, why would any parent do that to their baby? and you have got to understand that they do that because the other alternative, the option of staying at home is actually far worse than that. that is the desperation where we are seeing everything. >> thank you so much for your time. thank you for the work that you and others are doing to help all of those who are seeking a better life. greatly appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. >> next, ron desantis uses the playbook of a far-right european leader in his war against disney. i will explain that when we get back, stay with us. vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings

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company moved to expand its federal lawsuit accusing florida governor, ron desantis, of orchestrating a political retribution campaign. it is the latest escalation and a now months-long feud, stemming from disney's public criticism of arguably the sunshine states executive signature legislation. his don't say gay law, that effectively bans discussion of lgbtq people and history and classrooms. but as protect democracies ian bass and explains, florida governor ron desantis seems to be taking a page, or an entire

playbook maybe even entire chapters out of yet another leaders playbook. that being viktor orban. the prime minister received a standing ovation for an anti woke speech that bashed lgbtq rights, migration, education. it is obvious why the authoritarian leader has become aspirational to far-right politicians in this country, like ron desantis. but there might be another, even more troubling reason. bastian writes, he practices the concept known as autocratic capture, using the leaders of state power to enforce political loyalty from big businesses. does that found familiar? that has included massive tax breaks, state subsidies, silent on hungary shifting away from democracy and the rule of law. using state advertising dollars to prop up friendly media entities and using regulatory

investigations to harass the critical ones. joining me now is erin haines, editor at large for msnbc political contributor. also with us, dnc and dccc advisor, former spokesperson for the house oversight committee. good to have both of you with us. what do you make of the viktor orban, ron desantis comparison, do you understand why he has become the darling among right-wing extremist republicans? >> i mean, he is not just the darling here. he is writing the playbook, the talking points for republicans like ron desantis. it is very interesting because you have right now all of this rhetoric from people in congress like jim jordan who cherish the so-called weaponization of government committee if you want to have a conversation about weaponizing government, maybe you should start with florida, and their governor on desantis. that is exactly what we are seeing happen by them trying to use the instruments of government and power to try to

enforce a radical, political agenda on a private enterprise and to penalize a private enterprise for not complying with their subscribe political viewpoints. i wonder where they got that idea from? as you laid it out in the beginning of the segment. it is incredibly disturbing that we have a republican party that has decided the best way to try to move forward is to steal the talking points from autocrats. >> in recent years it seems like the far right around the world has really honed in on two objectives in particular. one is villainizing queer people, and using the state and the powers of the state to bend private businesses to their will when they don't fall to the subservience of those forces. >> you are absolutely right. i think it is so important that you are pointing out that this is part of a broader, global movement. and an erosion of rights, and

really trying to threaten what the future of democracy is going to be. not just in this country, but really around the world. you have the scientists in this country, at least, and his actions are largely a response to a reckoning of trying to make this country freer and fairer and more equal. so the strategy is just really to reject that not only by targeting these businesses but also targeting the public university system. by targeting libraries. so it doesn't stop just with disney. though disney certainly seems to be getting the highest profile target at this point. but we've also seen other republican leaders of the state and federal level that are targeting corporations as we have seen americans of both parties making their voices and their values known with their wallets. and really many americans are expecting business is on the

other side of this reckoning to be supportive of diversity inclusion efforts and to show that with their values and organizations. we have retaliating businesses and even george and i, you were able to remember when we came under attack by. the georgia governor. and when the senate went after major league baseball when they pulled an all-star after targeting voting rights. >> glad you brought those two examples up. . ,,,. desantis even wrote in the company in wall street journal op-ed that characterized for his actions against disney as

an effort to quote, fight back against its woke ideology. it's at the fact that he is openly admitting to punishing this mean for its political speech, the core of this issue? what he's saying is that he doesn't agree with her speech, and he's punishing them. he is definitely admitting to the punishing part. and he's doing so because he doesn't agree with her speech. >> i mean, you could almost and vision rhonda scent is in a court of law yelling objection, your honor, how dare you quote me to me! he right there in broad daylight, voluntarily admitted what his motivations were for the policies and the penalties that he is pursuing and disney. i just want to point out for context, as a former republican, i remember many, many times how exhausted republicans were talking about be wary of the power of fake government. we have got to stop the big government liberals. we've got to stop the spread of government from infecting the rest of our lives. we need the government out of our lives. what if we ran the country a

business was run? all of those catchphrases and they were very prevalent. now here we have right now, ron desantis doing the exact thing that they spent so many years accusing barack obama and democrats of doing, and all of those republicans who said those things back in the day, apparently they have nothing to say about it now. go figure. >> yeah. go figure. that is not surprising. panel, please stick around, we have a lot more to discuss after the break. it is time for our worst of the week segment. it is a battle of the senators. you will not want to miss this one. one. my whole family to verizon. (cecily) oh, it's america's most reliable 5g network. (seth) and it's only $35 a line. (vo) save big during our spring savings event, and get the disney bundle with disney+, hulu, and espn+ included. all for just $35 a line. verizon this isn't charmin! no wonder i don't feel as clean. hurry up dad! you've been in there forever! i'm trying! this cheap stuff is too thin! i told you not to get the other toilet paper.

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(vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. >> it is time for worst of the week. for today's matchup we have two senators holding up president biden's nominees. first up we will welcome worst of the week senator tommy tuberville. he has spent the last three months blocking all military promotions and protests at the

pentagon's new policy that ensures personnel can obtain abortions now that roe v. wade has been overturned. defensive pretoria lloyd austin has apparently had enough calling the senators process quote, irresponsible, unprecedented, and a clear risk to the u.s. military readiness in a letter this week. tuberville have been on a tear about what he calls the woke military and this week, lamented the fact that white nationalists were becoming, or being driven out of the service. it should also be noted that his military background consists of using war metaphors to inspire his teams during three decades coaching college football as the washington post paul cain puts it. we have returning champion, a regular, senator joe manchin, who vowed to oppose all of president biden's epa nominees in protest of the agency's new proposal to cut back greenhouse gas pollution from thousands power plants. when manchin failed to mention is that the new rules could

directly affect his personal income. surprise, surprise. as politico puts it, his family business, and our systems ink delivers waistcoat to financially struggling coal facilities near his hometown. he spent much of his political career protecting. so which obstructionist will take the pedal this week? we will bring back our panel to discuss. aaron, who do you got, tuberville or manchin? >> i think that we are going to have to go with a new color this time. because anybody who supports white nationalists and the military or anywhere is probably on the wrong side of history. look, people seeking access to reproductive rights, not okay. white nationalism in the military? those people that he is referring to as americans and patriots, and later he tried to clarify those comments and say that really what he was rejecting was -- >> he made it worse. >> he really did make it worse. and regardless of party, we

should all not want white nationalists in our military. >> that is a baseline we could all agree on. you think that is a baseline. sadly that is not the case. kurt, who do you have? >> i actually have to agree that the new color takes the cake in this case. again, i believe that fundamentally speaking, nothing is more important than the future of our planet, the health of our products, food, water, our land, but in this case the defending white nationalism, why is this something that only happens in the republican party when we are talking about our military? that is incredibly disturbing. especially after what we have seen happen already with things like january 6th continuing agitation, defending, whitewashing of these issues is incredibly -- promotes very, very dangerous pathologically insane viewpoints. and the fact that this guy is a united states senator should terrify all of us.

>> i was going to say it is rare that we have a trifecta of agreeance on the show but we do have it this week with, i will throw my hat in the ring for tuberville as well. i think he's the worst. >> we all agree that white nationalism is not okay. all of us agree. >> yes. it is not okay in any scenario. white nationalism is definitely not okay in the military. but here is the thing, to come back for a moment, it is not just low level military nominees that he's blocking. among them are significant delays, 64, three, and four star nominations for the top positions that will become empty within the next few months. you are talking about positions like the joint chief of staff, the army chief of staff, the nsa director, these are positions that are extremely consequential and he does not even realize that, i feel. >> no. this, the culture wars are now

affecting military readiness and also our national security, that should not be a cause for concern for again, all americans regardless of party and regardless of what your stance is on the issue of reproductive access. even for people who are in the military. that should be a concern that him deciding to force this issue is jeopardizing our military write-ups. >> kurt, going back to mention here for a second, do you think that his move is to get swayed with voters, since he is facing a tough reelection battle next year he's kind of sometimes threatened to be running as an independent? or is it a way for him to get the attention he had from the biden first term when he had the power to block his agenda with the filibuster. what do you think this is all about? is it personal income, stature

with the voters? explain it. >> well i think that there is a little bit of a relation here that his stature with the administration is his ability to wield influence. it is directly related to his political future. it is related to his ability to make the case with constituents in west virginia that he is someone who is affective and influential. that is the case to keep him in the united states and get reelected. i want to be very clear, for the many things i disagree with joe manchin on, he's going to have one of the toughest reelection's, assuming he does run for reelection on the map. at the end of the day i would much rather have joe manchin in the senate, such as he is, because if we lose this seat, we are not going to get a democrat from west virginia in there ever again. >> you have joe manchin in west virginia who is going to face some serious heat. you have kristen sinema who is going to face serious heat. and this is what you get for playing around with democratic

policies that the people did not elect you to uphold. now you are trying to backpedal and come up with anything that kind of makes you relevant. here's what you get, you find yourself in this trouble and you find yourself irregular on the worst of the week. erin haines, it is great to have you with us. always a pleasure, thank you to the both of you, greatly appreciate your time and insight this evening. thank you for making time for us at home. make sure to come back tomorrow night at nine eastern on msnbc. new york congressman, richie torres, will join us. he is co-sponsoring the stopping another non truthful office seeker also known as the santos act. until then, i am in new york, have a good night.

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