>> good morning to, you it's sunday, may 14th. i'm ali velshi. after months of speculation, florida governor ron the sentences just days or maybe even just, hours away from making his 2024 presidential bid official. according to nbc news, desantis is on the verge of announcing his presidential bid. as his political team moves in a new office in downtown tallahassee tomorrow. which will house his campaign. because a federal election

spending pools, that move is gonna force desantis to file paperwork within the next 15 days. that's officially acknowledging his intentions to run for president for the first time. even though he hasn't officially announced yet, he has been acting like a presidential candid for several weeks. yesterday, travel to the early republican primary state of iowa. where he attended a pair of events and met with voters. super pac backing him had to santa's 2024 signs, merchandise available yesterday's event and during a speech, -- he turned his attention to the election. >> as bad as things are going right now, if things do not go well for us republicans in 2024 it's gonna get a whole lot worse. we must reject the culture of losing that isn't affected our party in recent years. the time for extra races is over. we gotta demonstrate the courage to lead and the strength to win. if we do that, if we make 2024 election a referendum on joe biden and his failures.

if we provide a positive alternative for the future of this country. republicans will win across the board. >> before calling it a day, he made a last-minute announced stop of the city of des moines. -- that's where donald trump was supposed to hold a rally last night. before it was postponed due to bad weather. desantis -- comes at a time when some elected republicans have signaled that they're looking for an option other than the former president. this past week show just how fallible and vulnerable trump remains. on tuesday, a true new york held him liable for sexually abusing a defaming the writer and former magazine columnist e. jean carroll. the next day, he continued to mock her and denied the allegations during much criticize town hall where he also refused to say which side he wants to win the war in ukraine or whether he'll accept the results of the next election. these events together prompted negative reactions from some republicans.

including john cornyn of texas. member of the senate republican leadership who are mark that trump's inability to grow his base is quote a problem. on top of that, indiana gop senator todd young stated that he will not support donald trump's presidential bid. wyoming senator cynthia lummis one is for us to say that she thinks rhonda santas is the republican party. polling shows trump is still far and away leading the pack for all official and likely republican candidates. this is allowed him to act like the presumed front runner for many months. he's focused his attention in recent weeks on attacking in undercutting desantis. even before desantis has officially entered the race. they are still many months until anyone catches the ballot in this primary. and a whole host of factors that could still change the game for trump. including developments and anyone of several investigations into his conduct that are still ongoing. joining me to talk more about this is a former gop strategist rick wilson. he's the cofounder of the lincoln project. he's the host of the podcast

the enemies list. he's the author of the new york times bestselling book running against the devil. plot to save america from trump and democrats from themselves. rick, good to see you in the flesh. you and i've talked to so long. to actually be here is amazing. i want your commentary on all of the above. donald trump remains the front runner. john cornyn says he can't grow his base. does that fact -- doesn't matter? >> it matters in the general, but not primary. in fact, to base that donald trump has held onto in the primary is still rigidly behind him. our polling shows about 54% of republicans making their first or second choice, and we've also seen this movie once before. a 2016, we saw an awful lot of great days for ted cruz and great days for jeb bush, where big donors come behind and people saying trump is unacceptable, and, yet we are in a time loop again. and we've seen this play out before, and all of those guys

that just said, oh i wouldn't vote for trump, they're a loser. they're going to come back to him the minute desantis stumbles. which is what nikki haley did, which is what lindsey graham did, it's what all of them did. what is the thing, man? what is the force? >> it is fear. they are terrified of his base. they are terrified of being set apart from the right. because of this evolution of the gop and -- it used to be the traditional republicans, they got by the tea party. the tea party guys got eaten by monika, and now the moguls are being eaten by the ultra maga's, and the right-wing crazies. and trump has served along the top of that wave now, very effectively, in terms of keeping that angry base. so what do democrats -- >> what democrats do, we were talking before the show, the republicans are not in the right place, certainly the far-right ones, with these abortion laws that are going around through the states. they are not the most same place as most americans are.

a lot of people don't like abortion, there are increasingly fewer who think women should be thrown in jail and the doctors should be thrown in jail as a result of it. there may be a lot of people who really love their second amendment rights, but think that the amount of shooting that goes on web ar-15s in this country are nuts and they would like a reasonable response from the nra republicans and they are not getting. that there are some that argue that those are matters that democrats should really, really lean into going to 2024. >> i want my democratic friends tell us this very closely. because in 2020, the stupidest single line in american politics was ever uttered. it was defund the police. it was a poison with everybody, including african american voters. six-week abortion ban is defund the police for republicans. it pulls through the floor, everyone hates it, republicans, look. about 25% of republican women are pro-choice. moderately, or somewhat. but pro-choice. about 18% of republican men are pro-choice. this is a real cohort out there that you can re-frame this as

living in kansas and make this about liberty and individual choices and freedom because the republican party that i grew up in was about getting the government out of life, out of your personal decisions, out of your bedroom, out of your wallet, out of your behavior, within the law. and this six-week abortion ban stuff, it is radioactive waste for the republicans right now. and in the states where they passed it, democrats have a chance to make real inroads. >> let's talk, about you tweeted about ron desantis, because people have said that he is the leader of the -- republican party. >>, yes. >> i'm an economics guy, so when you say -- talk to me about that. when ron desantis speaks, there is always a theory that if ron desantis and donald trump made it to the debate together, donald trump would eat him alive, because donald trump is a lot of people live at these things. ron desantis may be doing all of the things necessary to be a presidential candidate, but when we see him as an actual presidential candidate, a lot

of people are gonna be a bit surprised. >> rhonda scent is has a strange personal affect, he does not like to make eye contact, he does not like human beings. i guarantee you, after this iowa traps exhausted by having to pretend to be human for three days, or today's, or however long he was out there. this is going to he is notoriously short of people, he is unpleasant one-on-one, and the donors that have flocked to him right now are squirrelly about him now because they are starting to see that he has kind of got a mean streak. and, in american politics, a mean streak is not really a good thing. and voters are seeing, that i, think a little bit. he's got all of this mechanical stuff around him, that is the right thing to do, but even a great campaign can't save a bad candidate. a bad candidate can sometimes, a great campaign can sometimes pull one along, but you've got to have a certain amount of felicity and grace and engagement with people if you're going to run for the highest office in the land. and what desantis is going to

have to go to places like new hampshire, and sit in a diner with the merrimack county republican state committee man for an hour as this 79 year old do talks with the gold standard or whatever else he is obsessed with. and you can't just walk out. he can just leave the roomu can't just walk out. >> so he's gonna have an interesting time of this. they're a lot of people in the donor class with given a lot of money. they looked at him as an alternative to trump, the legislative session in florida was a wish list for everything he wanted, and a lot of it turned out to be radioactive waste. like six-week abortion ban. this stupid war with disney, i have a short list of things not to do, one's go to war with bob iger in disney. it is like a land war in asia. >> tom nichols was on yesterday morning saying there is no republican who gets up in the morning saying, yeah. >> nobody gets up in the morning and says, man, i hate disney. we have to crush the woke disney people. so, look desantis, i think, is a smart guy, but i think he is

narrowly smart. he is not the person with those gifts. i dislike donald trump in every conceivable aspect of his behavior, his character, everything else, but he has charisma. he engages people. he has a sense of energy about him that will probably end up in the primary debates, coming out, again the base will rally back around him. and, look i said this the other night. you watch the way that donald trump behaved in that town hall. and i thought to myself, good god. he is going to tear rhonda santa's head off and kick it around like a soccer ball. this guy will go nowhere against him. and, look, i remember in 16, a lot of republicans, jeb, monk, or ted, they would -- they would say my speech writers wrote me a funny zinger about trump, and they would go, out and think they're gonna beat, him and then thinking he would blow the whole room up. >> if you are you, former republican strategist, who might want to see a working republican party or something

considered a party. we are could that possibly come from? because there are people who would populate, but there is nothing that looks like it. we have a's hutchinson running -- >> yeah. >> for what galvanizes people around such a movement? >> rhonda scent is right about one thing, republican parties on a losing trump. with trump, they lost seats in state legislators, they lost seats in congress, they have been on a slow drain. democrats have picked up some places they shouldn't have won, technically, even with their vast redistributing advantages that republicans have. but what has to happen for the republican party to reform is that there has to be a shocking defeat. it has to be hung around the trumpist movement, not just trump. this nationalist populism, which is essentially a sort of western diet version of putin's plutocracy. that has to be seen for what it is. it is a poison, it is not a conservative ideology. and i think, if that happens, i

think if he's defeated soundly, and they have to reconcile the fact that we functionally now have two republican parties in the country. one of them is a smaller, weaker, more centrist center right party. again, those people that i talked to a lot that we address those voters in that 15% or so of republicans who are just not going to vote for trump, no matter what. but, the other part of it is the seething populists, hyper nationalist, racially inflicted, comfortable with violence, all those things. that party is firmly in trump's hands. if he is firmly control of that part of the party, and, until that is repudiated at some level, and they are told, no this is not a philosophy that represents a republican party or conservatism in any way, you know, they are going to continue to sort of fantasize

out to the culture. >> good to see, you my friend. in real life. >> good to see you. >> let's make it happen again, when you're in town. mike wilson is the cofounder of the lincoln project, he's the author of running against the devil, a plot to save america from trump, and democrats from themselves. we will stop for president biden and republican leaders are reportedly meeting again to resolve the debt ceiling crisis, we are going head to capitol hill for the latest on that. republican senator tommy troupville spent the week trying clarify his views on what nationalists. his predecessor, former senator doug jones is going to join me to talk about that. plus, the top of the, hour i'm joined by north carolina governor roy cooper, who did not just to be to an abortion ban yesterday, he vetoed an abortion ban in front of an estimated crowd of 2000 people, fired up constituents at an event that might just be a blueprint for democrats in 2020 -- 2024. >> they say they passed this bill because they care about mothers. then why not invest more

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potential economic disaster, nbc news has learned that staff for former president biden and congressional leaders were set to meet again today to compromise on the debt ceiling. republicans are by house leader kevin mccarthy want to make raising the debt ceiling contingent on an agreement to cut spending in unravel key pieces of president biden's agenda. but president biden wants a clean bill that raises the debt ceiling with no conditions at all, which is what happened three times under donald trump's presidency. treasury secretary janet yellen says of the debt ceiling is not raised, america could default on its loans as early as june 1st. i want to go straight to nbc news capitol hill correspondent, julie tsirkin. julie, good morning to. you thank you for being with. us i guess i have to ask you this question, as somebody who covers this. in a normal world, these would be negotiations. staff of congressional leaders

and the white house would be sort of saying hey, this might work, that might work. in this congress, is that possible? because there are hard-liners in kevin mccarthy's congress who would threaten his leadership itself if they don't get what they want. are these real negotiations or are these just things that are meant to move this thing forward and not have it and? >> ali, it's a great question. as someone who was covered multiple negotiations extensively, normally, when you see staff working behind the scenes, that is viewed as more earnest progress. as more earnest conversations, than what we see when principles get together, like we saw at the fort meters come together last tuesday. that is sometimes viewed as more performative, as one close aide to mccarthy even admitted, the staff talks are seen by both sides as signs of progress. but, look. when you come to the very basics of this, we are two weeks out from that june 1st deadline. next week is actually the last week the house and senate are set to be in session at the same time. you'll notice that they all left me alone here in this

building, clearly not enough urgency to stick around, because they do think that kevin mccarthy and president biden, at the end of the day, hopefully we'll be able to come together on something. but here is the bottom line. if you are kevin mccarthy, you look at the staff talks as at least a partial win, but the president is willing to negotiate on something here. because, for about three months, kevin mccarthy has been calling on president biden to sit down with him again and negotiate president biden and democrats have stuck to their ways in saying they will not negotiate together. spending cuts with a debt ceiling, it has been done, as you noted, nearly 100 -- hundred times before, a clean debt ceiling left, including three times under former president trump. but i've to tell, you in the former, president during his town hall this week said that it is okay if we default republicans, following of speaker mccarthy here in demanding that we get our spending cuts. republicans did kind of listen to that, especially in the house. and that is something kevin acosta has to contend with, even as he says a default is not on the table. but you do have members of his party, including 43 senate

republicans who said, no way to a clean debt ceiling. so i am told staff discussions will continue today, in a couple hours, looking to get underway. and early next week, the four leaders will sit down together, we are told, to try and get something on the table here. >> julia, thank you. i will let you go, but we are gonna be talking about you in the next segment, because you had a remarkable exchange with senator tommy to brown, thank you for being with us. nbc's julie tsirkin, alone, a capitol hill. all, right the former captain football coach in alabama senator tommy to berm has been trying to explain itself all week after criticizing the pentagon's efforts to rig the armed forces of right -- white nationalists. his predecessor, the former senator doug jones is substantially clear on his views about white nationalists. he took on the kkk as united states attorney before becoming the first democrat elected to the united states senate for alabama in 25 years. he joins me, next on velshi. he joins me, next on velshi. (vo) choose the phone you want, on us.

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talking about the outsider tommy tuberville. it is not tuberville, it is tuberville. i've a bit of a mental block about him sometimes. i'm, it's not good to be confused about people's names. it is less serious to be confused about the pronunciation of his name than he is about white nationalism, that is really a no-brainer. the republican senator tommy tuberville set off a firestorm of criticism this week as he has seen in multiple on the record interviews to defend white nationalists. here's how it started. it was an interview he did with the alabama npr affiliate, w b h m one. >> we are losing in the military so fast, our readiness in terms of recruitment. and why? i can tell you why, because the democrats are attacking our military, saying we need to get out the white extremists, and white nationalist, people that don't believe in our agenda as a joe biden's agenda. they're destroying it.

>> you mentioned the biden extremist ration trying to prevent white nationalists from being in the military. do you believe they should allow white nationalists in the military? >> well, they called him that. i call them americans. >> you heard that right. senator tuberville arguing that the pentagon is hurting the military by trying to drive out white nationalist and white supremacists. this comment was made in an interview that was made about his decision to block defense operations. -- former defense secretary has condemned what government was doing, saying it is hurting our military readiness. but tuberville says he placed a hold on the nominations because he wanted to -- intervals own alabama, would now need to travel to other states to access abortion services. however, tuberville has been her attempt to walk back his

comments in support of white nationalists by issuing a statement to, quote, clarify what the senator actually meant. in a statement to the washington post, tuberville's representatives said, quote, senator tuberville's quote that decided showed he was being skeptical of the notion that there are white nationalists in the military not that he believed that they should be in the military, and quote. okay, that's what's it out. until the next day when tuberville address the issue himself. miami asked whether he should go in the military. instead of saying no, he stood the conversation elsewhere. pay tension to this exchange. >> sir, if there are folks with white nationalist beliefs, of which there are in this country unfortunately, do you believe they should be serving in the military? >> we got to define that first. what is a white nationalist? >> someone who propagates nazism, someone who doesn't believe that black and brown people are equals. >> you think a white

nationalist is a nazi? >> well that is one of their beliefs. >> well i don't look at it like that. >> how do you look at? it >> i look at a white nationalist as a trump republican. that's what we're called all the time. a maga person, that's what i'm -- >> do you agree with that assumption? >> i agree that we should not be characterizing trump supporters as white nationalists. >> now, if you lift that exchange feeling gaslight, you are not alone. attempts to decipher his vocal gymnastics have some of us scratching our heads, especially because he mumbled attempts to explain himself are complicated by his own history. at a rally for trump last year in nevada, tuberville was accused of making racist remarks when he equated black descendants of slavery with criminals, and accused democrats of supporting reparations because they are pro crime. >> some people say, well they are soft on crime. no they are not, they are pro crime. they want crime.

they want crime because they want to take off and take over what you've got, taken troll of what you have, they want reparation because they think the people that do the crime are owed that. bush. they are not above that. >> okay, there is a lot there. joining me to discuss tuberville's comments as his predecessor, the former senator from alabama, democrat doug jones. he's also formook on the kkk and prosecuted two of the men responsible for the 1963 bombing of the 16th street baptist church in birmingham. he is the author of bending towards justice. the birmingham church bombings that change the course of civil rights. senator, good to see you. i don't normally bring you in to talk about politics on this level, but this does need some clarification. because senator tuberville has given lots of opportunities to clarify himself, including by our own reporter. this is a layout, this is not hard, thing that you don't like white nationalism, that white nationalists should be in the military. i don't even know that that is complicated in alabama. >> no, it's not complicated in

alabama. and it is only complicated by the fact that he is putting a hold on all of these nominations. but, you know, ali, you left out one important piece of his history. this is a man that when he was running for the u.s. senate, did not even know what the voting rights act was. he thought it was some kind of securityit has been this histors hard to get somebody to walk back and clarify, when they really have no clue about what they are talking about. and, on the one hand, talking and complaining about the military, and affecting reddit as because policies in the military, while on the other hand he is affecting readiness every day by withholding his consent to move toward 150 so nominations that are on the senate floor. >> look, this is a real issue that, as i said. a black partisan group of defense secretary have come out. >> it is really an issue, we are a nation right now that is

involved in conflicts where the prevention of conflict all over the world. this is not an abstraction. tommy tuberville seems to think that there is some relationship between his making a political statement about the military and abortion and the fact that we are actively and actually involved in multiple wars across the world. >> that is exactly right, and he says he doesn't want the defense department to be politicized, it is senator tuberville who is doing this here by using culture wars and demands. in the military, you have to rely on the military commanders to do what they think is appropriate. for a military that is more diverse than his father's military, has more women in it than his father's military, and we have to adapt to the military that we have today, not john wayne in a world war ii movie. we have to make sure that we do those things necessary, and the fact, is it is not only i, think, hurting the united states in the military, it is

ultimately going to hurt alabama in a state that has a lot of military assets, a lot of military personnel, a lot of federal dollars that come in that people are going to remember this if he doesn't go ahead and let this go through. >> i go back to this white nationalism question. tommy tuberville is not a civil rights lawyer, that is on his background. but, growing up in alabama, being a certain age. what is the likelihood that one doesn't have a relatively good understanding of white nationalism. i'm not sure that a grown man should be confusing the two things. he is saying that calling trump supporters and maga people's the that they are being called white nationalism i am not sure that that's, i'm not sure that it all. >> i agree, but remember, heating robin alabama. i'm not even sure he lives in alabama right now. he just has an apartment in arbon, where he has his, quote, residents. so i don't know if he has kind of history.

you cannot simply do what he did as a coach and coach athletes that happened to be athletes of color and claim to be someone who is more progressive in in favor of civil rights. the fact he saying these things, that white nationalism has been part of the country's radar. forget jim crow, ali. forget all that can happen in that situation. let's just talk about what happens and how it has been on the radar since then. look at what happened, i think it was yesterday, where we had the patriots walking around the capitol with their ski masks and their sunglasses. there is no one that is paying attention to america today that should not know what white nationalism means and what a threat that that means to the united states military and the country. >> senator, good to see, you as always. thank you for joining us this morning. the former democratic senator from alabama, doug jones. we always appreciate your time, sir. >> thank you.

>> florida governor ron desantis continues his crusade against administration -- education by editing the textbooks used in public schools. now the top of the hour, i will be joined by the north carolina governor, aaron, cooper who vetoed a major abortion ban in his state in front of a crowd cheering constituents. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. hi, i'm katie. i live in flagstaff, arizona. i'm an older student. i'm getting my doctorate in clinical psychology. i do a lot of hiking and kayaking. i needed something to help me gain clarity. so i was in the pharmacy and i saw a display of prevagen and i asked the pharmacist about it. i started taking prevagen and i noticed that i had more cognitive clarity. memory is better. it's been about two years now and it's working for me. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription.

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want luxury hair repair that doesn't cost $50? pantene's pro-vitamin formula repairs hair. as well as the leading luxury bonding treatment. for softness and resilience, without the price tag. if you know... you know it's pantene. >> florida governor ron desantis's administration is taking the long step of editing the state textbooks. on tuesday, the states education department announced that it has rejected 35 of the 101 new submissions for social studies textbooks to be used in public schools. now, it is fairly unusual for state to dismiss such a large number of textbooks. but if you've been following desantis and his obsession with what he, calls the woke indoctrination of florida's youth, you can probably guess where this is going. many of the rejected textbooks include references to race, racism, social justice, and other political issues. when all of these books were

initially submitted in early april, according to florida's department of education, dozens contained, quote, inaccurate material, errors, and other information that was not aligned with florida law. and quote. a lot of the books now proved we're only given the greenlight once publishers made significant revisions, requested by the state. here are some examples. in a section of one textbook that discussed symbols and songs that represent america a whole passage about taking a knee during the national anthem in protest of racism and police brutality was entirely removed in a textbook for middle schoolers, a passages remember that discussed the black lives matter movement, the murder of george floyd, and significant impact on american society. mistakes said that passage contained, quote, unsolicited topics, and quote. i am joined by kelly carter jackson, an associate professor at africana studies at wells college. he's also the author of the book, force and freedom, black abolitionists and the policies of violence. kelly and other academics will be participating in a 24-hour teach in in florida this week to teach factual history about

the voter empowerment in the confront the political assault on that states educational system. professor, good to see you again, thank you for joining us. >> hi there, thank you for having me. >> look, let's talk about. this are their circumstances in which a state department of education would validly reject or ask for the editing of a textbook and, if so, how does -- give me that context with respect to what is happening right now. >> yeah, so there are big panels coming together to decide what goes in a textbook, what stays out of a textbook, what gets two chapters, what gets two paragraphs, all of it is really, really, political. it is highly contested. and they go back and forth deciding and what has validity, what has been critical thinking. so it is highly contested to be advanced in these bases in these rooms. but people who are in these rooms have to be so careful.

because whatever they choose to put in the center, whatever they choose to marginalize or leave out will have huge implications for how students learn american history. so the stakes are super high. >> we are worrying this protests, like protesting against police brutality, is it one of those things where it is too fresh and you think, in five years, it'll fix itself? or do you think this is uniquely political in florida because governor desantis doesn't like what he and his supporters called c r t, doesn't like wokeism, and all of that. it is part of the political moment in florida with which we are seeing this book banning of the normal books, not even educational books? >> absolutely, this is rod scientists. this is his moment, he wants to marginalize all of these conversation and as a story though i will say that within the last 2030 years, even if you were to do this. i can imagine a textbook that wouldn't cover the rodney king riots, that wouldn't cover -- there are so many other

instances in american history that you can use to talk about police brutality that don't necessarily have to include the past three years. there will still be residents. and i think that when you have a conversation you teach something like the l.a. riots, students will question the teacher and say, wow. isn't this just like george floyd. isn't this just like, pick another high-profile incident. and that's very good to have those deeper conversations and that's why it's so important to be included. >> so agile educator, let's talk about this. we have a world in society that is absent critical thinking which is why we need the polarization that we need an american overseas. there is a long term danger of this, when you take things out of the rubric for students, that if you don't learn them now. there is a possibility you may never learn them. >> yes, it makes once world incredibly small. i don't think you can understand what it means to be an american, and not understand the history of slavery, and not

understand the history of the civil rights movement, and not understand the struggles of lgbtq people. these ideas, these movements, policy, legislation. it shapes the world we live in, it shapes the schools that we attend to in the neighborhoods that we live in. it shapes the jobs that we take. it also, because, even more existential about who we hire, who we fire, or who we promote, who we think is capable, who we think has made major contributions. so, when i think about people being left out, marginalized, and he raised. i am terrified by this. which is why i'm going to florida to participate in this 24-hour teach in, and to let people know that knowledge is power. and republicans are deathly afraid of other people having power. you know, i had to take everything back to slavery, but i think about the fact that enslaved people don't know how to read. it was a crime to have literacy if you were enslaved, and they are pulling from all of the playbooks because they understand that knowledge is power. >> and those old playbook's

work, which is why, it's not a matter of going back to slavery, that is actually the point here. that we are deliberate -- and we're trying to keep our populations uninformed so they are not critical of things that are going on. united to continue this conversation, so thank you for this, kelly. we will have you back, there is a lot more here that we need to know. kelly carter jackson's an associate professor at africana cities at wellesley college, and the author of the book force and freedom, black abolitionists and the politics of violence. it might seem, by the, way that this wave of attacks that we are seeing on the ground -- is some grassroots movement by concerned parents. do not be fooled, it is a deliberate political strategy that is mobilized by the conservative right. conservative right conservative right like the #20. the elite chicken and bacon ranch. built with rotisserie-style chicken and double cheese. i love what i'm seeing here. that's some well-coached chicken. you done, peyton? the subway series just keeps gettin' better. a ballet studio, an architecture firm... and homemade barbeque sauce.

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that number has already more than doubled a similar letter bills passed in 2022. as you can see, the number bills introduced this year exceeds the number of bills totally in the past four years. or the four prior years. so far this, year more than 50 anti lgbtq bills have passed nationwide. anti-trans rhetoric and, subsequently, anti-trans legislation have become central to right wing messaging among those passing laws at the state level. advocates for trans rights have been saying for a long time that anti-lgbtq policy, and specifically, this focused, excel or the attack on tribespeople is actual part of a political strategy from the right. and the political right lost same sex marriage as a central rallying point for the socially conservative christian right. they needed something else to chin up support. and, moral panic. and they are admitting it. the new york times spoke to some people involved in the, effort quote, we knew needed to find an issue that the candidates were comfortable talking about, said terry schilling, the president of american principles project,

social conservative advocacy group. we threw everything at the wall. so it started as scattered bills, restricting trans girls access to sports, and bathrooms, have exploded until one of the central talking points of the right. using language about children's safety, harnessing conservative anxiety about involving gender norms. this political strategy puts the rights and lives of trans americans on the line, and many of them are children. on friday, i had the opportunity to speak with two parents of trans and non-binary kids, listen to what they told me. >> it is painful to me, and as you said, they frame it as a debate, or an issue, and i am sure the rabbi will agree with me that our children's gender is not an issue, and it is not a debate. their existence is not up for debate, and that is what we have been trying to say for so long. trans people exist, and we are tired of them being used by these organizations that have such deep pockets, like the heritage foundation, and the alliance defending freedom.

this is not something that is homegrown. this is all completely manufactured because they know that division and bigotry cells. >> after the break, i'm going to speak with amari jones, who has been sounding the alarm on the delivery campaign against trans rights. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. we're exploding. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. your bug spray should take out bugs, not keep out people. unlike other sprays that stick around, zevo goes from kill to clean in just seconds, plus it's safe for use around people and pets. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. (cheering) imagine you're doing something you love. rsv could cut it short. rsv is a contagious virus that usually causes mild symptoms,

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conservative campaign against

transgender rights, i am joined by amara jones, the founder of transit lash media, the chair of the transgender law center. she's fun five emmy awards, a peabody, awards yesterday she want to glad ward for her podcast, trans lash, because amara knows a lot about this. so thank you for being with, as my friend. you have been writing about this for years, and i think i want to understand a sense from this little differently. this is the flavor du jour of right wingers in this country that need something to cause people to feel morally panicked, to go vote about. when you go out there and you see the school board meetings when parents out there complaining about trans kids, this is something not naturally occurring. most of these parents did not have any encounters with trans kids, don't have any clue as to what is going on here, these are talking points provided by right wing organizations. >> i wish it was just talking point, i think we have to understand that there is actually a vast network of people who are deputized by

these national organizations, and said, money, expertise, resources, as well as talking points. so if it were just them sort of faxing talking points to who willing begets then that would be one thing. but i think we have to understand that, for example, the alliance defending freedom has something caused an ambassadors program where they are essentially looking for individual representations in representatives across the country to start trouble around trans issues and then sending them the issues to show those to church -- and it is one of the ways in which payton o'connor, who is among the first trans person on a school board in this country in nashville in north carolina it was run off the school board through one of these programs, and others, like the family research council, which has nearly 40 individual state policy councils across the country that are also behind this push. so it is much more than just

talking points. it is a vast network of resources, people, expertise, to make it look local when it is actually a national funded campaign. >> why? because, tell me how this compares to making abortion into a central animating factor, when it wasn't. nearly 70s, abortion was not a central matter to either churches or conservatives, but it was turned into one. it became a rallying point. anti gay legislation was also not central to peoples lives, getting care that much about it. then it became central to conservative talking points. why has this happened now? is this because it is the next available thing to get people worked up about? >> i think they believe that it works. i think that if you look at it from the national perspective, they are not putting hundreds of millions of dollars behind this effort because it is not working or they don't believe that there is a benefit to it. they understand two things. one is that as abortion wanes

is an issue, it is really apt, i'm not surprised that you would be app to start there. because as, abortion wanes is an issue, they understand that they have to give that entire abortion network something to do. and since it is something, a network, that is already concerned about gender, and gender identity, in gender roles, transitioning, ironically, into trans issues is an easy way for them to do that. so it keeps that machine, and that political energy for a large group of people. the other thing that it does is that they understand that there is a lot of soft transphobia in this country. and that there are a lot of people who say generally, is supportive,, and they understand that. and then just in that those two things together will help them get that really close election, and they look at the election of ron desantis and abbott in texas and say, if we see through this issue, we can win big. >> you are commenting the other day about the transgender

deliberates of the federal level, with that make any difference? >> i think so, because here is the thing. we will always be in debate about the mechanics of rights in america, but i think one of the things that is unquestioned right now is the essential human rights and dignity of trans people. and i think the most important thing about trans bill of rights, about inequality act for, is that it would affirm trans people as human beings. and worthy of human dignity in the united states. i mean, right now, that is in no way affirmed anywhere, and it is one of the vulnerabilities that we have, that people are exploiting, to try to win political office and implement this christianity nationalist fascism. >> amara, thanks as always, for your great analysis. amari jones is the founder and ceo of trans lash media, trans lash podcast, and in charge of

the trans -- exactly 24 hours after he vetoed his states major abortion ban, while in the process, laying out a blueprint for democrats in 2024 and beyond. another hour of velshi begins, right now. good morning, it is, sunday may 14th. i'm ali velshi. for much of the past, year we have been tracking the many nuances of the fight for abortion rights. man>> other shifted from stateo state. in the immediate aftermath of the dobbs decision, we saw trigger bans quickly take effect in deep red states like arkansas, and oklahoma. that was followed by huge victories for abortion rights in the ballot box last year, when voters in five states chose to protect abortion rights. further proving that the majority of americans support reproductive freedom even inserted of states. and now, we are seeing a new fight play out in north carolina, yesterday, local law enforcement officials estimate that more than 2000 people turned out for the north

carolina state