exactly 24 hours after he vetoed his states major abortion ban, while in the process, laying out a blueprint for democrats in 2024 and beyond. another hour of velshi begins, right now. good morning, it is, sunday may 14th. i'm ali velshi. for much of the past, year we have been tracking the many nuances of the fight for abortion rights. man>> other shifted from stateo state. in the immediate aftermath of the dobbs decision, we saw trigger bans quickly take effect in deep red states like arkansas, and oklahoma. that was followed by huge victories for abortion rights in the ballot box last year, when voters in five states chose to protect abortion rights. further proving that the majority of americans support reproductive freedom even inserted of states. and now, we are seeing a new fight play out in north carolina, yesterday, local law enforcement officials estimate that more than 2000 people turned out for the north carolina state capital to rally

for abortion rights. and to witness the states democratic governor, roy cooper veto the 12-week abortion ban that the republican-controlled state legislature passed in the first week of may. now north carolina republicans claim that the bill was, quote, a mainstream approach to regulating abortion, but critics say it is full of hidden restrictions and medically unnecessary obstacles that take in together were -- we dramatically reduce access to abortion and cause women's health clinics across the state to shut down. but the fact that republicans are trying to market this extreme abortion ban as reasonable and mainstream is important. it's part of a larger national effort will cancel determine unacceptable abortion ban standard that they could enact without politically backfiring on them. for the most, where they've been unsuccessful in this regard. again, the majority of americans support abortion rights. opposed this is importing the criminalization of women and their doctors specifically and overwhelmingly.

but what makes the fight in north carolina particularly compelling is how it transpired. began back in april when the signal presented of tricia cotham announced that she was leading the democratic party and would become a republican. her decision to switch parties give republicans a veto proof supermajority. in about the state house and the senate. in turn, that's when republicans could push through the legislature. some of the more controversial policies like abortion ban without having to worry about the governor's veto stamp. state legislatures in north carolina first announced the 12-week ban on may 2nd and i'm a fourth 48 hours later the bill had passed for both republican-led chambers. governor cooper's veto yesterday says that the next stage in this fight on paper. north carolina republicans have a veto proof supermajority. this episode highlights how volatile the issue of abortion rights has become for republicans across the country. as the governor said in his speech yesterday, he believes there are at least four

republican lawmakers who make campaign promises to protect reproductive rights. he intends to push them to keep those promises, denying they're party the ability to override his veto. he doesn't even need all of their votes. it would just take the power of one vote to save abortion rights in north carolina. >> standing in the way of progress right now is this republican supermajority legislature. that only took 48 hours to turn the clock back a years on women's health. >> if just one republican follows his or her conscious. if just one republican finds the courage. if it's just one republican listens to doctors.

we have just won a isn't afraid to stand up to the political losses. if just one republican keeps that promise made it to the people. then we can stop this man. >> joining me now is the governor of carolina, roy cooper. governor, good to see you. thank you for being with us. i want to lean into this thing. in addition to saying what you thought yesterday. you were laying out a specific strategy for the 2000 people who were in front of you for the people who watch this on our show. because we covered it live. you are staying there is a way out of this for north carolina. it is to put pressure on the four republicans or every republican in the goal is to get in this particular case just one. that's mirrored in a number of states in south carolina. the five women in the legislature, some of whom are republican, some of whom are

independents gather together to overcome a bill like this. >> [silence] >> governor, i think you may be muted. i definitely want to hear what you're saying. >> sorry about that. sure. you've hit it on the had. really, here is the code should indeterminate constitutional rights. but that's where we are with the overturning of roe v. wade and these battles have moved to state capitals. and the extreme position of republicans is being felt across the country. you are having republicans take a second look at this. they know that this is largely unpopular. throughout the country. these bands that criminalize abortion. that puts doctors in very difficult positions. you have a south carolina where republican women are standing with democratic women. and saying no. you have a nebraska legislature

that is saying no. we have republicans in north carolina who are working now to try to convince at least one republican in our state to do the right thing. in north carolina, brief -- of the body can override a veto. we are now one vote short of that three fifth and both the house and the senate. override has to go through both chambers. all we need is one republican to step up. >> you were on the show with me a couple of weeks ago. we were having a similar discussion. itpeople are on your side on this. let's discuss this again. it's highly specific to north carolina and some other states. you won your last election by about 250,000 votes over your republican opponent. you have democratic statewide elected officials in north carolina. you are more registered

democrats than original republicans. the math based on the polling when indicate that means there are far more people who support abortion rights than who don't in your state. and yet, if you take a quick glance at your legislature and your supreme court. one would have the impression that north carolina is a very deep red state and gerrymandering is one of the things that your states is dealing with. this is an undermining of the democratic process. most people in your state probably support what you were saying yesterday morning as you veto that bill. you have to overcome republican supermajority in legislature. >> technologically diabolical gerrymandering. some of the worst of the country. in fact, when our state supreme court said that partisan gerrymandering was unconstitutional last year and made this district be redrawn. we saw seven democratic, seven republican members of congress

be elected. that shows you the purple nature of north carolina yet we now have a republican supreme court that's overturned that. it's going to allow them to go back to partisan gerrymandering. probably going to see a 10 to 4 at best. they go house by house. they look at numbers. we see it all over the country. we need independent redistricting commissions to make these decisions. until then, we have to justify like hell, ali, and to work to turn out people. we're gonna make sure we got candidates in every legislative district this fall. we're gonna make sure that we work to break that supermajority because when we do that, we have a democratic governor. and you don't have a supermajority republican legislature. you can stop all of the bad legislation for four years i have vetoed bad abortion pills, bad discrimination bills. bills that hurt education.

bills that hurt voting rights. we've been able to stop all of them. but now, they got a little closer to this election after the election was over. we had broken the supermajority -- won a vote in the senate. we had the switch that happened that put them in a position where we have to have some republican votes to turn this thing around. they've made campaign promises during the year to say we're gonna protect women's reproductive freedom. several of them said we put support the law today's in north carolina. we had become an access point in the southeast. helping women in north carolina across the southeastern united states. they need to run with that promise. -- we have been conducting forums, even educating people. we had a legislature that some

42 hours alley. no amendments allowed, no public input. this is a monstrous bill that not only puts burdens and make clothes -- it's extraordinarily confusing for doctors. when they have these harsh penalties waiting for them on the laws that are difficult to interpret. -- that is not democracy as we know it. >> governor, good to see you again. thank you for joining. us we appreciate. that north carolina governor roy cooper. former president donald trump may have postponed his rally in iowa last night but there's no stopping his real troubles. but we should expect in the week ahead. with the pandemic era immigration policy title 42 officially in the rearview mirror. we're gonna head across the border to mexico. get a glimpse of the situation from a different perspective. it's election day in turkey. we'll have a broad -- report in the world what

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the polls have close on election day. what are most consequential in the year. it's one that has worldwide implications. president -- erdogan who has been in power for two decades is being challenged by -- comes amid ongoing economic turmoil huge inflation in the country hovering around 50%. just months after a monumental earthquake left tens of thousands dead and destroyed several turkish cities. the election has major implications for nato. and russia's war in ukraine. speaking of russia, -- says that russia is currently meddling in turkey's elections. join me now is nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez. who is covering this closely from israel. raf, results are said to be released around 5 pm eastern. i understand we are probably

not likely to get a decisive result around that. >> ali, this is potentially a two stage election. somebody either president erdogan or his challenger -- needs to get more than 50% tonight. , otherwise we are heading for a runoff in two weeks time. may 28th. as you said, we're gonna get official results at around 5 pm eastern. , aly we may have a pretty good sense of where this is going. if you hours before that. we sort of good exit polls from the turkish media. polls are closed in close about an hour ago vote counting is underway all across turkey. the turkish central election committee says voting went smoothly. they say turnout is high. including in those areas of southern turkey that have been so devastated by that earthquake. which is pretty extraordinary that people who are still rebuilding their lives. rebuilding their homes. turned out and voted today. did their civic duty. turned out in those areas.

around 80 to 85%. which is much higher than he would cnn american presidential election. the stakes here as you said it really couldn't be higher. turkey is so geostrategic lee important. it is a u.s. ally. it is a member of nato. erdogan has been a difficult partner for presidents from both parties. and he's currently as we speak holding up sweden's membership of joining nato. just to give you one example. turkey has given a lot of support to ukraine in the form of drones. in the form of political support. it is also refused to join in on western sanctions against russia in fact raid between russia and turkey has increased since the russian invasion of ukraine. the whole world is watching here. democracy is really at stake in some senses. a lot of viewers could be asking president erdogan has this reputation as an

authoritarian. it's a man who locks of journalists. one analyst said to me the way to think of this election is it is free but it is not fair. erdogan has a lot of advantages and state media. the expectation is the votes are gonna be counted more or less fairly. >> good to see you again, thank you. raf sanchez for us in tel aviv. covering the turkish elections. the international rescue committee is right now on the ground on both sides of the u.s. mexico border. helping with the humanitarian crisis there after the break room to talk to the mexican country director to see how the situation is playing out on the other side of america's southern border. safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ your best defense against erosion and cavities is strong enamel- nothing beats it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients-

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persecution in another country. crime violence or oppression or economic problems. then their journey to america could be incredibly dangerous when they get here. they face even more uncertainty at the border. many migrants to still take those risks. risk that involve their potential death for a chance to start over in the united states. the international rescue committee has been on both sides of the u.s. mexico border. assisting migrants seeking asylum. there is the president and ceo david -- says today increasing numbers of people in latin america have been forced to flee their homes. divestment already are hosting and states like columbia, peru and mexico. crossings there have doubled since 2021. asylum claims in mexico have reached historic levels. now fielding the highest number of asylum applications in the world. after the united states and germany. and we see these hyundai diaz spoke to a grandmother who he met near the border. who's described what it was like to make that treacherous journey. >> you feel as though your

moving -- and that i can't wake up. i'm dreaming awake. i haven't been able to sleep. -- i haven't been -- nightmares. everything is a nightmare. that's why i say i have been woken up from this nightmare and what i have is a nightmare. as a wake up, i don't think i'm hear. that i'm still in the trains. i got used to being hungry. to being thirsty because i wasn't used to them. to drink hot water. to eat poorly. just because -- we never had one meal. and now, at least we have meals. the girl had diarrhea fever. you're very difficult. >> joining me now from mexico city. raphael velasquez garcia. he's the mexico country director for the international

rescue committee humanitarian aid group the response to crises around the world. has been experiencing helping people facing disaster in sudan. yemen, syria, jordan, guatemala and lebanon. raphaël, thank you for being with us. give us a sense from the mexican side. what's happening there. what happens to the people who successfully get into the united states and increasingly to those who don't. >> thank you. for the last couple of days, we saw a huge surge of people heading to the border. there are different profiles. there are people that attempted to make a crossing before title 42 expired. that's a group of people who are really concerned with. we are providing hydration kids to the hundreds of thousands of people that came to the border. we're also concerned for the people that decided to make across and informal way. people who basically listened to the confusion, that the misinformation and the like a clarity. every time norms change. there's another profile for people who are really concerned about --

the majority of asylum seekers to mexico are in -- the poorest state. many of them are actually just last couple of days. we find out a shelter that have been recently established in mexico city was disbanded. those reveal that had nowhere to go. >> let's talk about what the irc is doing at the mexican border. u.s. mexico border. you're looking at scaling up humanitarian aid at the border. you are looking at alternatives to detention timely processing in a way to get people through. you want to scale up information to combat the misinformation that's out there. you are trying to get a few things done. tell me what that's supposed to achieve. >> our presence started 2019 on the border. it has changed dramatically. it started and continues to do prevention mitigation gender based violence. title 42 over the last three

months. what we saw is artistic information was a huge problem for people. not just in terms of clarity or what the norms means but also in terms of people being able to access that information. for, example haitian community doesn't have access to a lot of that information. last couple of, days we've seen an increase of more than 200% of people accessing -- our platform. to try to understand what this changes meant. on the other side, we are also present to try to strengthen -- prison on both sides of the border our welcome centers in the united states are very active in putting in place mitigation plans to receive people and support assistance. our presence in the north is mostly supported with your permission. what we're doing there is providing access to information. gender -- protection services as well. -- obviously, we're concerned because as -- what we're having here is a crisis. the system some resources in place or not there to support that. >> nor are our policies in the

united states. a humanitarian migrant crisis is different from what we generally think of as the reasons for seeking asylum. which are political but some places these are economic refugees. which is very real in their lives. it doesn't pass muster when they even for those who get an appointment. who get into the hearing process which could take years in america. the majority of people coming through mexico are rejected and sent back. either they're sent back at the border as they are now where they're sent back after several years. >> seeking asylum is a recognized rate on the country level international level. it shouldn't change will be obstructed with requirements in terms of interpretation of the entry. or implication that may or may not be accessible to a lot of people. it's something i don't think that's escaping a lot of people. the profile of people arriving is very different. the world has changed

significantly in the last 30 months. we saw talk about people from the northern triangle and mexico to talk about the border. right now, mexico's the last mile for people coming from all over the world. we're different meditate races. our community center in mexico city is helping people from russia and ukraine. sierra leone, sri lanka. it's our different profiles of people escaping different crisis all over the world. >> raphael, thank you for the work that you and i are -- we always appreciate. we count on you in so many parts of the world to explain to us what's going on with these increasing humanitarian crises. raphael velasquez garcia is the mexico country director at the international rescue committee. one of the biggest threats to american democracy may be something that you've never heard of but i'm going to explain it to you when i come back. i'll explain the constitutional sheriff movement coming up. coming up coming up the always discreet pad is super comfortable. it feels like it's barely there. look at how much it holds, and it still stays thin! i've looked at myself in the mirror and i can't see it at all! that's the protection we deserve! at t-mobile, your business will save over $1000.

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joe our pilot who is known for forcing mates to wear a pink underwear, for running an actual chain gang of minors in a juvenile detention center. for yelling at the detained undocumented people quote there is nobody with more authority than me. -- the same -- constitutional surface later granted than president trump's very first presidential pardon for criminal contempt of court. in a very western movie kind away, our pile believe he was not just the law enforcement. but the law itself. there was no law enforcement higher than him.

the elected sheriff of maricopa county arizona. he was a prime example of what we now know to be so constitutional sheriffs. those full of this theory believe the county sheriff's have the power in the duty to make their own determination which laws to enforce and how to enforce them. it's not just enforcing laws and following the constitution. it also involves resistance laws and nullifying and refusing to enforce laws that a share of has somehow deemed unconstitutional themselves. this week, democratic congressman sean casten of illinois hosted a discussion panel with legal and constitutional experts around the country. here is his warning to the nation. >> the constitutional sheriffs -- because it threatens the very existence of our democracy. >> sheriffs are generally elected by the public they are typically the highest county level law enforcement officer. their duties vary by region and there are federal and state

laws supersede county level authority. they should be obvious to anybody who attended the third grade. this group a so-called constitutional sheriffs believes that their scope and power stretch four and a very wide. here is why congressman casten is so spooked by the constitutional sheriffs movement. last, year after a mass shooting in highland park illinois left seven people dead and 48 others wounded. the illinois governor banned the sale and distribution of assault weapons and high capacity magazines in that state. within a few days of the law of this enactment, more than 90 of illinois 102 county sheriff's release statements saying they would not enforce the assault weapons ban. many of the letters were nearly identical by the way provided to them by the illinois sheriff's association. at a press conference days after the new gun restrictions for pat, sheriff william -- from crawford county illinois said this. >> i am a constitutional officer.

i uphold the constitution of the united states first and foremost. me and several of the sheriffs in the state. like most of us. several states attorneys along with -- have sent out these letters. saying that we feel this law that has recently passed is unconstitutional on how we do not want to. how we are not going to enforce any of that law. >> in 2011, two terms sheriff of graham county arizona richard mac found the constitutional sheriffs and police officers association of america. cs poa. a sheriff mac was also a member and board member of the oath keepers at the time. a far-right extremist group that we've now come to know. he says he left the group in 2014. he's continue to appear publicly close with oath keepers founder stewart rhodes. -- of seditious conspiracy for his

role in organizing january 6th. this is from cbs poa's website. quote, the law enforcement powers held by the sheriff supersede those of any ancient officer elected official or employee from any level of government when in the jurisdiction of the county. the vertical separation of powers of the constitution makes it clear that the powers of the sheriff even supersede the powers of the president. the sandy hook elementary school massacre prompted a push for gun control measures in congress. sheriff mack, the guy who runs that organization of arizona compiled a list of nearly 500 sheriffs who he said had vowed to uphold and defend the constitution against obama's unconstitutional gun control measures. the theory is used most commonly by sheriffs across the country to resist gun control laws. to enforce harder lines of immigration. also to resist tax laws. marriage equality. land management and

environmental policies. in 2021, a sheriff's across the nation to use the same logic to defy covid-19 lockdowns and mask mandates. last year during the midtown election ces poa another right-wing groups teamed up to station poll watchers that ballot box -- ballot drop boxes and voting centers. they launched a direct hotline that was supposed to connect poll watchers directly to the sheriff's office. just about 10% of the nations 3000 sheriffs are actually registered with the cs poa half of sheriffs nationwide who responded to a martial project survey believe that their authority is county sheriff out rank that of federal or state government. whether used to oppose mask mandates for gun restrictions, voting laws or immigration policy. the so-called constitutional sheriff movement is an abuse of power. , ironically there is no constitutional basis to backup the theory of the sheriff supremacy. there's also a side of something bigger. it's a twisted interpretation of the constitution in order to

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subject to legal exposure you'd expect for someone who openly aspires to petty despotism, brightening affiliate away with assaulting women and wants to clear that he could shoot someone on fifth avenue and not lose a single supporter. this week, the legal landscape actually started to look a little different for donald trump. on tuesday, a new york jury found him -- found the former president liable for sexually abusing and defaming the writer e. jean carroll. and awarded her $5 million. the verdict marks the first time that trump has been held legally --

responsible for their sexual abuse or for lying. the defamation portion is itself historic because such cases are notoriously difficult to prove when the plaintiff herself is a public figure. that a stroke legal standard is intended to protect the rights to criticize influential and powerful figures. the law centrally grants predicts a public figures -- e. jean carroll is one of them. the right to be wrong in the interest of preserving a robust public debate. the ideas that if you are already in the public sphere, you can be criticized. when is someone even the public sphere, in this, case the writer e. jean carroll claims that an individual harm the reputation. the law requires that person provide clear and convincing evidence that the speaker in this case donald trump knowingly entertain doubts about the statements he was making. the standard is concerned so strict conservative supreme court justice clarence thomas and neil gorsuch have argued that it should be reconsidered.

because it's virtually impossible to meet that standard. it allows people in this case donald trump to lie with impunity about public figures. the fact that a former president of the united states who is currently running for office was actually found liable under this extremely strict standard is huge. it could have a legal and political implications for the republican front runner who is embroiled and several other cases as well. when my next guest, senior legal correspondent dolly lithwick noted this week that while the defamation piece of the verdict wasn't the headline for most people. it represents a turning point in trump era american politics. that trump was found to be not believable under the strictest legal standard in the world should shape and dictate every activate of media -- it should undermine every claim he makes. it should color the way in which we view anyone who works for and with his campaign. in a fundamental sense, the carroll verdict should be as much a victory for truth

telling in public discourse as it was for women's dignity and public spaces. that this seems boring or secondary or technical instead of groundbreaking in this political moment suggested we are more comfortable with leg room to liars in public office then with sexual predators. more on what this verdict means and how it might shift the legal and political landscape i'm joined by -- by christy greenberg who served for over a decade in the u.s. attorney's office for the southern district of new york and is the former deputy chief of the criminal division. and thanks for to both of you for joining with us. dolly, let me start with you. there are so many people who have said in the last week this was a civil trial. the bar in a civil trial is lower than it is for criminal trial. it's a preponderance of -- it is -- you don't have to have a unanimous jury. there are a lot of reasons why

people thought donald trump got found liable because the bar is lower. what do you've written about with respect to this defamation part is that actually the bar is very high. >> that's exactly right. i think the celebrant standard that he just laid out is the highest standard in the world. it's largely deemed on meat-able. in other words, were constantly being told that nobody can prevail under this extremely high showing of quote unquote actual malice. the fact the jury determined that under that unbeatable standard, donald trump defamed e. jean carroll. it's not a secondary or tertiary. it means the jury said he's not credible. he's a liar. when he turns around and makes those same claims 24 hours later in the town hall the cnn town hall, we have to take very seriously that he was determined by a jury to be not

credible. the exact same things again. that matters for truth as much as the sexual abuse count matters for sexual protection. >> kristie, one of the things i was thinking about. there were some rumors that after he went to that cnn town hall and said things about e. jean carroll that i would've thought given the verdict, he may not have said but he said them anyway. and he kept saying things about the election and election denial. i was gonna pardon january six people. can you tell me what further legal implications there is from donald trump continuing to does it help him to say i've why i keep saying it or does it hurt him where he keeps on reinforcing the things he might be getting into trouble for or was already found liable for. >> donald trump is a prosecutor's dream and a defense attorney's nightmare. he just any good defense attorney is going to tell a target of a criminal

investigation to stop talking. anything you say and will be used against you. donald trump seems incapable of doing that. he made numerous incriminating statements in a number of criminal investigations that are pending at the cnn town hall. if that town hall is any indication, donald trump on the campaign trail is going to be the gift that keeps on giving for prosecutors. >> however, i know this isn't your -- your part of the specialty. there are cases pending against donald trump. there is one that's been adjudicated what happens. does this hurt him when you say the should change the way we look at how we cover him and everybody around him. what does that actually mean. how does that change things for the next year and a half as he is potentially the front runner for the presidency of the united states -- >> we had such a good question.

i've been thinking about it a lot as we reflected sort of on whether cnn did the right thing. platform-ing him of this week. whether this was a mistake. to me, the real question is and where the ratings or whether he was fact checked and realize. those are ancillary questions. this to me highlights the fact that donald trump is not in a war with cnn a. he is not in a war with the jury that found him unanimously liable. he is nowhere with the truth itself. that's the real issue we should be talking about. every single person who studies authoritarianism and creeping tyrannical rules. it's true that he's trying to get ahead of. for us to be having this horse for his conversation about how many of his lies seeped through. how many of them were caught and whether or not there is a way to do this while fact-checking him. i think we're missing this much larger more existential

question. which is he doesn't care about the truth. his point is to dominate truth. we have to really rethink as journalists how we cover him not because fact-checking his lies matters. what matters is every time he doubles down on a lie, he is making a point about him being the master of truth. that's a very scary. i'm not sure our brains have quite caught up to that. >> -- and why you said this yesterday morning. he said he just -- he knows that history says that we just keep on repeating the lie, it doesn't actually matter whether anyone holds it to a counter stops you or questions you. or interviews he. you a.e.g.i.s. need more space to keep repeating the lie and do it enough times, everybody will remember it and then internalize. that policing, i will take a quick break. rain come back on the other side with -- christie greenberg. ristie greenberg is super comfortable. it feels like it's barely there. look at how much it holds, and it still stays thin! i've looked at myself in the mirror

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work, legal columnist senior there for salina chrissy rubric former fdny criminal diplomat -- deputy chief. let me ask you because we've been talking about the e. jean carroll stuff and we saw this town hall. then we saw trump -- he didn't have a rally last night but he was going to. he's back in campaign mode. that's what he's talking about. people are coming now to the next thing. we've seen manhattan d.a. indictment. we've seen the e. jean carroll case concluded. now, all eyes are on what happens in georgia with fani willis. what happens with jack smith.

does anything that's happen at leads you to any conclusions about timing and what might be happening on those two cases. >> i would say that at the town hall. donald trump gave those prosecutors gifts. he made numerous incriminating statements in the classified documents case. he said that he could not categorically deny that anyone has seen these classified documents. that is an incredibly damning case to make about the threat of this poses to national security. that's something you would imagine special counsel is certainly taking note of and looking at. on the january six investigation. trump said during the town hall that he agreed that no one will listen to him. no one will listen to anyone else like they listen to him. that was another powerful statement where he was saying look i had the power to stop

this insurrection. i did not use it. powerful evidence of intent. the georgia investigation where he said what i really meant when i said you find those votes. what i meant was you only those votes because this was your rigged election. again, powerful evidence of intent. all of those prosecutions. it seems they are moving along. moving along quickly. the more that donald trump goes on that campaign trail and makes these kinds of admissions inconsistent statements and lies. he's giving more and more ammunition to prosecutors who are looking to charge him. >> dolly here is a head-scratcher to me at abc news poll released this weekend found that 18% of voters who think donald trump -- think donald trump should face criminal charges for trying to overturn the election. let me rephrase this. 80% of the voters who think donald trump should face criminal charges for trying to overturn the election still

prefer him over joe biden. how can that be? how does one's democratic mind so -- process that nonsense. >> for me, it's not too super complicated if you connected up to what we were talking about earlier which is some people really like a strongman. they really like somebody who assures them that he's got it all under control. that he's going to go ahead and destroy institutions. let's be clear, he promised again that he was going to destroy institutions of government whether it's a law, journalism, whether it's discrediting the jury. i think it matters that he's kind of painting the jury in each and carol trial as a bunch of latte sipping avocado toast eating liberals. they're not that but he's laying down tracks for future discording juries in the rule of law. this is the play. people who like authoritarians

love that play. they love seeing institutions blown up. he's very good at it. >> let's think this through. there is a lot of people who live in what might be a fever dream that they're gonna get him. someone's gonna get donald trump. accountability is catching up with donald trump. it's sort of this week with e. jean carroll. jack smith seems to be conducting a very serious investigation. he is going to restore prosecution of donald trump that he doesn't think he can likely win. fani willis has been taking her time with developing a case. and she won't bring it, if she doesn't see that there's probably a likely place to be made against donald trump. in the end, legally, this might all be good. lawyers like you would say you gotta do what's legally correct. do you know have any sense of this materializes in any way other than what she just said. making doubled from putting more of a strongman or acting like more of a strongman that he already portrays himself to be? >> i think that the people who are inclined to believe in donald trump and support him no

matter what. these cases aren't going to change their minds. however, it was really something to be at the courthouse for the e. jean carroll. i watched her testimony. there were women that came from out of the country. out of the state to watch it. as we discussed the testimony during the breaks, i was struck by the roi motion that people there had. tears, and society. above, all hope a jury would finally find him accountable. and believe her. that's what the jury did. in the court of law, his playbook of lies and intimidation tactics. they were exposed. that's what led to a jury being able to find by clear and convincing evidence that not only were -- but he knew it. that matters. a court of law, rule of law matters. >> thanks to both of you, we are seeing here a time this morning. jen psaki