iowa. helped trump wasn't there. give us a sense as to where you think things stand for the florida governor, who may be a couple weeks from announcing a run. >> he wanted to do this legislative session where he signed a bunch of bills, conservative priorities. i think his team saw this as a way to contrast himself with donald trump. look, i'm getting stuff done. what actually happened, he was half in as a candidate, half out, and that enabled donald trump to pummel him day after day without really an infrastructure to beat back. going to iowa, having this super pac go out and defend him on the airwaves and online, you're seeing them steady ship a little bit. with all the races, his expectations are much lower than they were six months. i bet there's going to be a comeback narrative in two, three weeks. the other interesting thing i'd point out is there is this narrative that desantis is awkward.

at every single stop now, reporters are looking, is he interacting with the crowd? is he take shaking hands, tae -- staying long enough? if you're advanced staff, you have to stay at least an extra 30 minutes to show, hey, he likes people. >> i saw tweets, what pizza is he having? is he talking to voters? do we have a timetable as to when other candidates will jump in? rumors about tim scott, mike pence and others. >> i think tim scott will come in. may 22nd is the date where they're circling. you'll see his super pac get bolstered. mike pence also in the next month. those are the two main candidates. >> national political correspondent for "axios," alex thompson covering a lot of ground. thank you for being here. thank you for all of you for getting up "way too early" on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. we must reject the culture of losing that has infected our

party in recent year. the time for excuses is over. if we get distracted, focus the election on the past or other side issues, i think the democrats are going to beat us again. i think it'll be very difficult to recover from that defeat. >> ron desantis taking a swipe at donald trump during a barnstorming trip to iowa over the weekend. it comes after the former president canceled his campaign event in the state. we'll get to that and much more. jonathan lemire, a culture of losing. wasn't hard to figure out who that was directed at. >> no. no, it was not. it was an attack that republicans who are tired of donald trump are trying to make. a trump-led republican party has been defeated in the ballot box in recent cycles, you've ticked off a few times. ron desantis is saying, i'm the

guy who can get you what you like about trump, but i have a shot to win, and he can't. >> we also have some polls coming up that are going to show just how much better ron desantis does in swing states than trump. also ahead, republicans' claim of corruption against president biden's family take another big hit. first durham, now comer. who is next to embarrass himself? the house oversight chair admits the committee lost track of key witnesses. host of "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. of the editorial board for "the new york times," mara gay. and the conservative website "the bulwark's" charlie sykes. charlie, we have polls in a bit

about how donald trump does in swing states against how ron desantis does in swing states. as everyone has been saying, as we've been saying, trump gets trounced in the swing states. can question is, can republicans help themselves? >> that is exactly the question. i mean, you're seeing the rational for the desantis campaign in all of those polls. but, you know, over the last week, we've seen how the republican party cannot help itself, how it just can't quit donald trump. they can't push back. they're unwilling to push back on jean carroll verdict. they're unwilling to take the steps they need to take to do anything about it. can i just comment on mother's day for a moment? by the way, happy mother's day to everyone. >> happy mother's day, everyone, belatedly. >> i hope everyone looks at the mother's day statement that donald trump put out to the nation, and then ask yourself, how can republicans look at that and go, "yeah, let's spend the next two years defending this

guy, and let's put him back in the oval office." i mean, one of the things we've seen over the last week is a reminder, in case anybody has forgotten exactly who donald trump is, what he is going to be like, and what he is going to demand of his fellow republicans in terms of ignoring his conduct or defending his contact. >> yeah, do we have that, alex? do we have what he wrote? this is what types up twitter. i totally get it. hypes up twitter. makes people catastrophize. all it does is it just loses more and more voters. if you were a swing voter, suburban voter in the atlanta suburbs and you read this, happy mother's to day, in particular to mothers, wives and lovers of the radical left fascists, marxists and communists who are doing everything within their

power to destroy and obliterate our once great country. please make these complete lunatics and maniacs kinder, gentler, softer, smarter, so that we can make america great again. >> not a parody. >> that is not a parody. mara, i don't really get on -- i try not to get on too many social networks anymore. i'll tell ya, i went through instagram yesterday, and there were so many loving tributes to so many mothers. you just really learned a lot about people when you read that. i must say, and here's one from president biden. i must say, we did learn an awful lot about donald trump. we already knew it. again, the fact that he would write that on mother's day shows just, again, what a bitter, diseased soul he is. more importantly, that's just my

opinion, when you write something like that. more importantly, again, for republicans, a guy who will never win the general election. >> well, it really -- it was such a bookend, because you had his behavior at the town hall last week, which showed us he is the same exact guy. if you were hoping to see some muted, changed, evolved donald trump, that's not what we saw. he hasn't been changed by january 6th, the indictments, the jean carroll case, by reality. then the mother's day statement which was particularly unhinged. this is the reality, american people seem to be in the polls. they're looking at options, that much is clear. what they're seeing is the same

old unhinged behavior from donald trump. frankly, desantis, we'll see, but most of the country doesn't know him yet. they're not political junkies like us. when they look closer at his beha behavior, his obsession with disney world, it might not be what others are thinking about, like recession, inflation, housing crisis. they're not thinking, i want to see unhinged messages from donald trump for the next six years. that's not what they're thinking. >> no, they're really not. again, you can see it play out in the polls. again, people catastrophizing. i know democrats a week ago were catastrophizing because donald trump in one poll was, what, 36%, 38%. very intereing, several polls since then are showing joe biden is doing a-okay.

i haven't seen the media obsess over those polls. "economist"/ugov poll came out a few days ago. look at that, reverend al. joe biden's performance among registered voter, not adults, registered voters, sitting at 5%. i don't say this because i think right now joe biden is doing the best that he's ever done. i am showing this and the one we showed this past week, last week, to say, okay, well, if this is an outlier, are you going to sit and talk about it for a week like everyone talked about the outlier on the abc news/"washington post" poll, which was an outlier? again, this is the latest national poll we have out from "the economist." respected media organization. approval among registered voters at 50%. i just wonder, again, are we going to have -- because i'm

still reading articles about last week's poll, saying, saying, "somebody should run because joe biden is at 36%." yeah, in one poll. here, the most recent poll, here's at 50%. will the media obsess over that the next few week? >> anyone that has been engaged in the political process for any amount of time knows you can't take one poll and know you'll call it over after one round. like in boxing, one round, unless it's a knockout, you can't say it's over. joe biden couldn't have a better assist than the behavior of donald trump, who still is the assumed opponent he will face. more and more, every day, people are taking desantis less seriously. he's like a baby in a crib with a rattle, wanting to be like daddy, more than he looks like an adult that belongs in the living room, sitting around and

having a discussion. i think it will come down to biden and donald trump, unless something dramatically happens. and i think the more we see the tirades of donald trump on mother's day, no less, the more it reminds people, wait a minute, i don't want to go back there. i think that that is one of the assets that joe biden has, aside from some of his achievements as president. >> right. speaking of daddy issues, we'll be reading the op-ed this week talking about donald trump's own daddy issues. also, talking about the fight being over, jonathan lemire, i expect we'll talk about one of the more ugly weekends in boston red sox history over the next four hours, but right now, we have admiral stavridis to talk about the election in turkey. >> we'll do a deep dive on the catastrophic red sox losses

later. for now, turkey will hold a runoff election to decide its next president. that will pit incumbent president, recep erdogan, against his democratic challenger who pledged to revive democracy in the nation. the election failed to produce a candidate that could clear the 50% threshold needed to win outright. erdogan led by roughly five points. a runoff vote will take place on may 28th, joe. the world has been watching this carefully. we know president erdogan has, at times, being a thorn in the side of nato. we won't have the results of this election now for a couple weeks. >> right. i mean, coming also, the news reports coming from a state news agency controlled by a man who has persecuted more journalists over the past decade than any other. yeah, i'm a little spectacle. there is a good reason when i listen to his opponent saying they believe when the votes are

counted, they'll be ahead. let's bring in former supreme allied commaner of nato, four star navy admiral james stavridis, analyst for nbc news. explain how important this turkey election is, and more importantly, how far they've backslid in democratic norms over the past 10, 12 years since erdogan has taken office. >> yeah, it's very worrisome. let's start with just the geography here. turkey is a big country, and it finds itself in between europe, a volatile middle east, asia. it's got a dynamic, young population. and it's got the second largest military in nato after only the united states. a big geopolitical actor, important to the alliance.

point two, joe, you have to consider that erdogan, if he wins this election, will have completely consolidated power in turkey. he's edged up to it. i think the odds, unfortunately, are 75% to 80% he'll probably achieve that in the coming runoff in two weeks. let's wait and see. it means you'll see complete erdogan. he'll have complete control of the country. he's imprisoned journalists, pursued conspiracy theories, has been someone who has been difficult for the alliance. third and final point, what's he going to do? will he continue the behavior like buying russian weapons, getting close to putin, objecting, preposterously, to the inclusion of sweden to nato? he needs to get the economy

moving. that's the big problem for turkey. will he lean a little back toward the alliance? we don't know, but this is not good news for nato this morning. >> no, and what a massive difference it would make if somebody came in more afore minded than erdogan. also, i wanted to ask you about what's going on in ukraine. you heard the news, it's pretty shocking. ahead of anticipated counteroffensive by ukraine against russian forces, "the washington post" this morning reporting the head of the wagner group made an extraordinary offer. it was this, quote, if ukraine's commanders withdrew their forces from around bakhmut -- that's where his forces were getting slaughtered by ukraine -- he would give kyiv information on russian troop positions, which ukraine could use to attack them. he was going to give up russian positions so those soldiers could be killed. according to "the post," the offer was conveyed by the wagner group's leader. contacts in ukraine's military

intelligence with whom he has maintained secret communications during the course of the war. that according to previously unreported u.s. intelligence documents. nbc news hasn't reviewed the documents in question. but this has been coming for quite some time, a riff between the wagner chief and vladimir putin. this shows how divided putin's inner circle is right now. >> with friends like yevgeny prigozhin, you don't need enemies. i think prigozhin's days are numbered at this level. what he is doing, in a mafia context, he is ratting out. he is going to find himself at the bad end of a bomb or a cup of poisoned tea before too much longer. that's good news for ukraine and good news for the west. joe, if you look at how this spring offensive is going to go, i think it'll start in the days or weeks ahead, certainly.

weather looks good. the tanks are flowing in, the training t morale. i think the ukrainians are going to have a very good spring, these two scorpions in a bottle, the wagner group and the russian military, that's got to be keeping putin awake at night. >> if you're the head of the wagner group, stay in ranch houses. don't go three, four, five, six stories. you'll fall off the balcony. i want to ask about a cease-fire between the israelis and the palestinian fighters. nobody is talking about this, unfortunately. few people are still talking about it. tony blair is still obsessing over peace there, but a lot of the sunni arab states moved on. they made peace with israel. at times, i must say, in talking to them off the record, they're openly contemptuous of the palestinians, saying that they

just have missed one opportunity after another for peace. that may be the case for their leadership. may be the case for hamas. but it's the palestinian people who suffer day in, day out, week in, week out, month in, month out. at some point, my god, it's got to end. can you tell us how we get there? >> boy, if i could do that, i should probably be picking stocks as well as predicting palestinian outcomes. but i'll give you three things that could help. you mentioned the sunni arabs. i think there is still room to maneuver there. as the sunni arabs, the gulf states if you will, get closer to the israelis, and they have been over the past three, four years, there's some negotiating and some leverage there.

so bringing that together. number two, israel has to put order in its own house. it's in the midst of enormous internal controversies about the netanyahu government, its attempts to change the supreme court there. that's got to be solved before a united israel can work coherently with the palestinians. third and finally, my counsel to the palestinians is, you are so much stronger together. they're divided between very radicalized groups down in the gaza strip and more moderate, if you will, factions in the west bank. if they can't bring themselves together, there's no outside help for peace. >> all right. admiral, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. we're going to get back to the new polling. it shows ron desantis presenting a tougher general election challenge to joe biden than donald trump would. also, the latest poll that has joe biden at a 50% approval rating. also ahead, the number of

migrants crossing the united states' souther border, surprisingly, this is a shock, dropped dramatically since title 42 expired last week. we'll get a live update from el paso and cover much more, including the disaster at fenway. you're watching "morning joe." happy monday. it is so great to be with you to start this week together with you. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be back in a minute. i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can dramatically relieve

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6:24 in new york city. it is an absolutely gorgeous -- it is an absolutely gorgeous day this morning, good -- da-da-da. no, it's a beautiful may day, looking like summer. it's awesome. i could kind of do this for a couple hours, to be honest with you. all right. i have to snap out of it, say says alex. beautiful pictures of new york to just pure spasms of lucidity, once in a while punctuated by idiocy. the republican-led oversight committee is claiming, of course without direct evidence, that president biden's family engaged in elaborate pedaling insurance schemes. james comer talked about those allegations in an interview yesterday, and ended up admitting they've lost contact with the submarine. that's a "red october" joke.

with the informant who made the initial claim. >> you have spoken with whistleblowers. you also spoke with an informant who gave you the information. where is that informant today? where are these whistleblowers? >> well, unfortunately, we can't track down the informant. we're hopeful that the informant is still is there. the whistleblower knows the informant. the whistleblower is very credible. >> hold on a second, congressman. did you just say that the whistleblower -- or the informant is now missing? >> well, we -- we're hopeful that we can find the informant. remember, these informants are kind of in the spy business, so they don't make a habit of being seen a lot or being high profile or anything like that. nine of the ten people that we've identified that have very good knowledge with respect to the bidens, they're one of three things, maria.

they're either currently in court, they're currently in jail, or they're currently missing. >> so, comrade, you're telling me you lost another submarine? i mean, come on. you lost an informant? you lost the informant! the guy you claimed gave you all this information, that you built this entire charade on. do you and durham, like, have tea parties every weekend to talk about how you can destroy your reputations and your careers? durham tried this, remember? he chased conspiracy theories to try to prove the fbi was corrupt and rigged the 2016 election. he made a fool of himself time and time and time again. now, we have lost informants. in fact, the informant that this entire charade was supposedly built on.

tern mark zaid posted this. he represented whistleblowers for over 25 years and never lost one. never lost one. i really don't -- don't really know, charlie, where to begin with this one. except for the fact we had all this breathless huffing and puffing about the fbi being corrupt and staging january 6th and spying on donald trump. then you had all the right-wing papers, trumpy papers, saying that durham was proving that hillary spied. >> yeah. >> then it was all a lie. durham made an absolute fool of himself and had to shut down the investigation. now, you have comer who said, oh, yeah, we had this informant who we built this entire case on, but we lost him. it's more of the same. >> yeah, the hunt for the great white whale isn't going well, is it? it's never a good thing when you

lose your informant. james comer has been making one big promise after another. he's been saying we're going to have this big bombshell. what's obvious is he doesn't have the bombshell. he doesn't have the smoking gun. he doesn't have evidence, and he's lost his informant. this is beyond embarrassing, but this is what happens when you have an internet meme and fox news narrative that comes up against actual reality. people say, "show us the evidence. you have something? you've been promising us something really, really huge, something that's going to change everything." it just doesn't happen. james comer is all hat, no cattle when it comes to this investigation. by the way, when maria bartiromo is saying to you, "are you kidding me, you don't have evidence?" when maria bartiromo is questioning the credibility, you know how bad things are. >> exactly. >> yeah, the hunt for october is a good reference.

also, the "seinfeld" episode where jerry goes to the rental car counter. it's one thing to take the reservation, but you also have to hold the reservation. in this case, you have to hold the informant. hang on to him to make sure he can cooperate with your investigation. it seems to me, furthering on charlie's point, a moment where the republican party just seems out of touch with what people care about. they've been promising this biden crime family, quotes, square tacts for a long time. the hunter biden investigation is entering the final stages. this blanket conspiracy that has never gained much traction. it didn't work in 2020. what are they thinking now? >> first of all, listening to that conversation, i mean, it may as well, via mad libs, he could be talking about ufos. i mean, we heard from them, now we don't know where they are. it's hard to keep track of them. what really are we talking about here? i mean, the interesting thing

is, from a disinformation perspective, this was one of the rare moments of lucidity, as joe said a moment ago, where you see the emperor has no clothes and this is all bunk. this is based on absolutely no real evidence whatsoever. because, of course, we know that you don't just miss -- whistleblowers just don't go missile suddenly, so it is absurd. it is also a moment to recognize that most americans have no idea. they're not clued into these, you know, ginned up conspiracy theories. this is for a very small, specific audience in the republican base that can be animated by these conspiracy theories. so i think the rest of america is going, what are you talking about? i'm looking at the price of life and living in this country. i'm interested in the border. i'm interested in jobs, in

housing insecurity, how i'm going to feed my kids and make sure they have a better life than i did. nobody cares about these conspiracy theories, except for the small part of the republican base that is controlling the republican party like a ventriloquist at the moment, it seems. it's a really, you know, bizarre situation, not just politically but culturally. most americans are thinking, what are these people talking about? >> right. >> completely out of touch. >> yeah, completely out of touch. they're not talking about, like you said, inflation. they're not talking about the issues that matter to most americans. when they do all of this biden crime family thing, they do two things at the same time to their base. first thing they do, they get them revved up about the biden crime family, like a certain wife of the supreme court justice who talks about how the biden crime family should be put on barges outside of gitmo, showing how disconnected from

reality she is. the second thing is, you know, they're like, oh, the media is bias. they won't report about the biden crime family. well, again, it's just like they're saying we won't report about the fbi. you actually had durham investigate the investigators longer than the investigation actually went on. trying to prove the fbi, that the deep state, all these people somehow had it out for donald trump. it ended up being nothing. the only thing that came out of that investigation was that john durham, who had a good reputation before him, destroyed his reputation, destroyed his career. in this case, rev, you now have the hunter biden laptop. why aren't you talking about this? why aren't you talking about that? i'll say what i've say here time and again. you know, right now, hunter biden is being investigated by the justice department for, i think, tax issues.

if hunter biden is charged, you know, hunter biden is charged. it's crazy. other than trumpists, most americans believe no man or woman is above the law. if he's arrested, if he's tried, if he's guilty, if he goes to jail, well, i'll say, you know, it's too bad. but that's the system. unlike republicans, who basically say they're going to burn down american democracy if somebody on the republican side is actually brought to justice for crimes that they've committed. that's the big difference here. you see once again withcomer, like durham had nothing on the fbi, comer has nothing on the supposed biden crime family deal that the trump right absolutely obsess about. >> what is strange to me is if you are running a campaign for president and certainly for the

senate and congress next year, why do you want to remind people about crimes you can't prove, your informant is lost, when your leader is under indictment under three other investigations? you shouldn't even want to bring up investigations and crimes. when an indicted person is the one leading your party, you caught to be talking about any other issue. because if you're going to try to appeal to voters, and i agree, most voters care less about what they're saying, the last thing you want to do is spring up investigations. people will say, investigations, oh, yeah, didn't they invite your candidate? manhattan? yeah, isn't he under investigation in georgia, two federal indictments? they didn't lose ms. carroll, who won the lawsuit against him, and neither did those who testified against his like behavior. if that's what you lose as a measure, you lose that one seven

or eight to zero. i think it is malpractice politically, and it's laughable in terms of people who follow these things. you don't lose informants and then go out in press conferences and share the information. >> it's a shrinking portion of the electorate. at the southern border, the migrants apprehended has been in decline since title 42 expired. while fears built up ahead of the expiration, the numbers tell a different story. border encounters have dropped, said the secretary, but he warned it is too early to tell if the immigration surge peaked. joining us now from el paso, texas, is nbc news correspondent george solis.

good morning. good to see you. the numbers have taken people by surprise. it's probably too early to draw large conclusions, but what are you seeing there in el paso? >> reporter: good morning, jonathan. that drop in numbers is what's causing some anxiety among the shelters that have been housing the migrants that made it through the ports of entry. they wonder if the surge will ever come. behind me, there are migrants still arriving to border towns. they're sleeping on the sidewalks. the people behind me, many are men as the women and children are in the church behind me. there's still people coming in daily. many of them are trying to find out where they are going to go next. some of them, unfortunately, including the families have no choice but to sleep on the sidewalks. we can say things have remained peaceful. everyone is minding their own space. i've had a number of conversations with the migrant families who tell me the trip they've taken the perilous. many taking the trip over years, months. many heard about the expir

expiration of title 42, and it made them come here, risk being detained and deported. those that have made it here, that made it before title 42 expired, said they're awaiting their court dates. many of them have had some success navigating that cpb-1 app. many tell me it's an a nightmare. they cannot get appointments. if they do, they're scheduled miles and miles away. some of the court dates before a judge are not until 2024, 2025, and as far as 2030. it's clearly a system that they're still trying to navigate. many of them are trying to understand the knew rules for entry. many of them fear if they are caught entering the country illegally, they may not be able to seek asylum for the next five years. this is a heavy decision weighing on these families. going back to the conversations, we spoke with one mother who was at a port of entry.

she went into labor. she had her babe by here in the u.s. that child and mom safe, but they're staying at one of the welcome center. that child is only 15 days old. at one point, she thought she'd lost the baby when she had tripped on the journey. spoke with another couple who said their 4-year-old grandson was detained and separated if them at the border. they're still here. they want to get to dallas, but they will not go until they're reunited with that child. again, some of the stories and some of the harrowing journeys we are hearing here along the border. jonathan. >> not just numbers but real human stories. live from el paso, texas, nbc's george solis, thank you for your reporting. joe, it's only been a few days since title 42 expired, but so far, the story is not what so many expected. >> not as bad as most of us expected. reverend al, i just want to ask you, though, looking out over the horizon, not just this week or this month, but over the next

year or so, we have a situation where there's been a humanitarian crisis at the border now for years. as i say here all the time, when barack obama left the white house, border crossings were at a 50 year low. it ramped up under donald trump. it's continued to go up under joe biden. this reminds me of homelessness. people say, it's terrible you don't let people live on the streets. why are you pushing them to the shelters? why are you so concerned about the homeless? well, the idea that people that have mental and health challenges, that have safety challenges should be sleeping on grates in 20 degree weather is this that's insanity. there is nothing humanitarian about it. we need shelter for every person

that's out on the street. it's the same thing here. the idea that you're heartless if you try to enforce border policy. what happens when you don't enforce border policies? this is just the case. this is the case. you encourage people to make an extraordinarily dangerous journey with their families. there's one heartbreaking story after another heartbreaking story. there are millions of people to the south of the united states that would love to come to the united states and live here. millions. well, why are we backed up one, two, three years on court cases? because we're overwhelmed at the southern border because we have a lot more people there than we've ever had plans for. so how do we move forward, where we can actually not only create a more humanitarian situation at

the southern border, but we can also have a more ordered process to have immigrants coming into this country? like i said before, like ronald reagan, i believe we need more legal immigrants in america. because immigration keeps our country young and vibrant. that's what reagan said. i think he was right. >> there's no question reagan was right on that particular point. i think the balance has to be that we have to deal with the humanitarian need, to deal with people that are literally running from distress and all kinds of social maladies that they and their families are facing, and balance that with a policy that's not throwing open the doors that we cannot afford to take, then start playing shenanigans like busing them to

democratic cities, mostly black mayors, or trying to play the blame game. we have to take responsibility. yes, we are going to be humanitarian. but, yes, we have got to manage this in a way that doesn't drain our own citizens and our own cities andgives false hopes to those that are coming because we can't internally keep funding this. i think we're playing theatrics, which happened with desantis busing people and moving them around like they're pawns on a chess board, rather than saying there is a humanity issue here. but there is a management issue here. we will manage this right and deal with what we should for our neighbors, without putting our own families and citizens in a situation that is less than what is palpable. >> you're so right. false hopes. i think that's something that the beginning of the biden administration, there were a lot

of people in central america that were given false hopes. they made the dangerous journey, and we've had an explosion at the southern border that's caused a massive humanitarian crisis. the thing i can't get, i know we have to go to break so we'll go to break, but i want to talk about it on the other side or maybe moving forward, republicans and democrats really ought to be able to come together on this issue. i know illegal immigration has been an issue that republicans have used as a cajole against democrats for a long time. but it doesn't work, republicans. it doesn't work. it might work in deep red districts, but look at the polling. it didn't even work when donald trump was elected to office. overwhelming majority of americans were opposed to his harsh anti-immigrant policies, right? didn't help him in 2018 when they thought talking about caravans and the illegal immigrants carrying leprosy would help them out.

it didn't help them out when donald trump sent troops to the border with barbed wire. they lost that election. it didn't help in 2020. it's not the potent political issue that republicans always thought it was going to be in elections. maybe they can do the right thing. maybe democrats can come together and do the right thing. maybe they can -- democrats can give on border security and actually be for really strong border security, to strengthen our borders. maybe republicans can give on dreamers. maybe republicans can give on the number of immigrants that can come into this country legally, on the number of refugees that we take into this country legally, on the number of high-tech visas we actually put out there so people will be starting businesses in north carolina instead of going back to new delhi after they get the best education on the planet. makes no sense. let's make a deal.

it's really -- it just shouldn't be that hard. it really shouldn't if you look at the situation. shouldn't be that hard. coming up, donald trump says really stupid things at the town hall meeting about ukraine. republican chair of the house foreign affairs committee tried to clean it up a little bit, tried to clarify. put that in quotation marks. donald trump's latest stance on the war in ukraine, we'll have the comments. plus, a top adviser who has been promoting qanon conspiracy theories. still, trump says he'll bring michael flynn back if re-elected. we'll talk about that when we return on "morning joe." what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways!

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sixers played an excellent

first half. third quarter, outscored 33-10. tatum fires away, pops it in. 51 for jayson tatum in game seven. >> so let me ask you, lemire, does that make up for two blown saves after an incredible, incredible start by paxton? >> i don't know if it makes up for it, joe. we have to do a deep dive on what was a calamitous weekend at fenway. but across town, happier new england sports fans. jayson tatum, who has struggled at the start of games this series, well, no slow start yesterday. the young celtics star exploded for 25 first half points. on the way to a historic 51 point effort, the most in a game seven in nba history. he led boston to a series-clinching win over their rival, the philadelphia 76ers.

the teams were neck and neck over the first two quarters, but the celtics absolutely blitzed philadelphia in the third, going ton a 33-10 run. pulled away with what pulled tout with an easy 112-88 victory. celtics now advance to the reiss earnern conference finals against the heat, who always play them tough. game one, wednesday night in boston. meanwhile, the denver nuggets open the western conference finas against, eh, the lakers. pretty good final four, joe. >> exciting. let's bring in the president of the counsel on foreign relations and frustrated forever red sox fan. you almost made it to, well, the eastern finals. >> almost.

>> any hope? >> 50 years of rebuilding, joe. it's important to keep perspective on this. knicks had the best player for the whole series, jaylen brunson. it wasn't enough. the rest of the team couldn't find the basket. the knicks this season emerged as a team with a lot of good, young players. as i say, there's always next year. hope is alive. frustrated but feeling okay. >> it's just like with the yankees, right? hope is alive. you're feeling good about the yankees, right? >> would have felt better if they won yesterday. friday night, i watched the yankees pull it out, rizzo's two home runs, and then nobody left the madison square garden. everyone went inside and was watching the knicks game. that was the friday night there. >> yeah, let me ask you this, richard, have you studied how -- we're very -- we believe in grace on this show. we're going to give you another chance. have you studied your four majors in golf? can you tell us what's next?

we were all -- >> pga this weekend, joe. i want to thank you, first of all, for this mulligan, for giving me a second chance. >> i give myself a mulligan every day on this show. go ahead. >> we come from different religious traditions, but i appreciate your forgiveness, this second opportunity. yeah, pga starts in upstate new york, oak hill this weekend. what was great this past weekend, jason day, one of the greatest players in the world who hadn't won in over five years, won yesterday. goes into pga with a little bit of momentum. there's others, jon rahm, you know, who just won the masters. there's so many good players. >> you're just throwing out names now. you want to get your position back, and that's fine. you got it back. >> are those real people? >> i don't know if they are or not. we're going to fact check him later, and people on twitter will say again, that was one of the most bizarre conversations i've ever heard. as they said after our last golf conversation. speaking of bizarre,

speaking of really bizarre, in last week's town hall, former president donald trump would not say whether he wanted ukraine to win the war against russia or not. of course, we know why. yesterday, republican congressman mike mccaul of texas, the chair of the house foreign affairs committee, a guy who has been steadfastly on the side of ukraine, tried to explain what he thought donald trump was thinking. here's what donald trump said last week, followed by chairman mccaul's comments yesterday. >> do you want ukraine to win this war? >> i don't think in terms of winning and losing. i think in terms of getting it settled so we stop killing all these people. >> can you say if you want ukraine or russia to win this war? >> i want everybody to stop dying. >> i mean, what do you say so that? he's your republican front runner right now. >> well, and i think donald trump -- >> and he can't say whether or

not he wants ukraine to win against russian aggression. >> i think he always thinks in terms of winning and losing. i will say this, i think what he is thinking is that this counteroffensive, which is happening soon, will be so successful, we can have a cease-fire and maybe get to a negotiating phase. >> hmm, yeah, no. actually, donald trump, the chairman is right about one thing, richard, donald trump always does think in terms of winning and losing. that's all that matters to him. so to say i don't think in terms of winning and losing is a lie, first of all. secondly, it goes against what republicans have always seen as what a strong commander in chief should say, how he or she should act, what he or she should do. when ronald reagan was asked what his strategy was against the soviet union, he said, it's easy. we win.

they lose. here, donald trump is going, ah, i don't really think about winning or -- which once again reveals, as we saw on this show in december 2015, this guy has some really bizarre fixation, really strange, unexplained connection still eight years later with vladimir putin, that he can't even say he hopes the freedom fighters, whose country was invaded by a leader who was committing war crimes every day, he can't even say that he wants that side fighting for freedom to win. >> you can't be neutral in a situation like this with such moral absolutism. there's not a lot of rules in this world, joe. not a lot of norms or rules. the only one that's really out there, the most basic one, is you cannot use force to change borders. that aggression cannot become

the new normal. that's what this war is about. it's clear that russia has to lose. if russia does not lose, we'll have nonstop war in ukraine, plus others will take their cue from it. we'll see this world really begin to look like a jungle. it's not a gray area. the only gray area, you know, and i'm not going to give the former president the benefit of the doubt here, he doesn't deserve it in his answer, we have to have a conversation, you and i had it on air, about what ukraine has to accomplish militarily in terms of liberating russian-controlled territory. that is an insider foreign polity conversation, but russia must be frustrated in their aggression. there, there can't be a debate. >> mara, germany has now pledged an additional $3 billion. doubles their commitment already. certainly, the germans aren't thinking like donald trump is thinking.

nobody in nato is thinking that way, that it doesn't matter who wins or loses. >> it is such a stark contrast, as we're starting to see, donald trump, in particular, on the campaign trail. there's a coalition in the west that's still invested in democracy, still cares about democracy, and wants to see a country like ukraine, you know, triumph as a win for democracy around the world, which is under threat everywhere. we know that. of course, other republicans know that, too, they're just not standing up to donald trump. which is really not a good sign either of things to come. they just can't quite seem to quit him, as you said, joe. also, germany is invested. their history, right, is at play here. there's some wisdom here. they have been the beneficiary of, of course, years and years ago of the marshall plan. so i think that there's some

wisdom there, and i hope that we see momentum continue to grow, to help ukraine, and, of course, the more that the western alliance does, the less the united states has to go it alone. of course, they've not been going it alone, but in terms of the financial obligation, which is enormous. sharing that burden is important, too. it looks like momentum has returned for springtime in the uk. >> it really does. >> for sure. >> really, really does, mara. charlie, you know, it's interesting, there's always been, even in trump's lowest moments of kissing up to vladimir putin -- again, starting back on this show in 2015 when we kept pushing him about his support for the vladimir putin and saying putin was a strong leader, saying, but he kills journalists, kills reporters. donald trump, instead of condemning that, condemned the united states and says, "we kill people, too."

of course, that's devolved into the united states being the greatest threat to western democracy. really perverse, anti-american basketball. -- babble. it's interesting, there's been a divide with republicans and democrats. en senators shamed themselves every day, bowing and scraping. on russia, they enabled tough sanctions on vladimir putin. they pushed to help defend ukraine, just like they're helping joe biden right now in a bipartisan effort. i know we hear a lot about, you know, back benchers who have kevin mccarthy's ear about being weak on ukraine. the overwhelming majority of republicans in house and the senate are still on russia, aren't they? >> yes, so far. but what you're seeing with michael mccaul is how difficult it is to square the circle. i mean, this is the ongoing bonfire of the normies.

how do you explain what donald trump is saying when it is very cheer he is not supporting ukraine, that he would have been in ukraine, that he continues to be vladimir putin's poodle. somehow, you have to rationalize this. you just saw the clip you played, how incredibly awkward it is. whatever michael mccaul thinks, that is not what donald trump said. donald trump is not waiting for the counteroffensive. this is not who he is. so we have this balancing act, where republicans continue to support ukraine and they continue to pretend that donald trump is not who donald trump says he is over and over and over again. it's going to be awkward. this is what they're buying into for the rest of the campaign and what a trump 2.0 presidency would be like for them. >> all right, charlie sykes. thanks for being with us. love having you on. greatly appreciate you being here. richard haass, a huge election last night if you care

about democracy. a huge election if you care about nato. a huge election last night if you actually care about freedom, press freedoms and the spread of freedom across europe and into the middle east. erdogan being taken into possibly a runoff. can you talk about how important this election is, not just for nato but for the world? >> no, it's important. it's important, you know, given how turkey has a strategic location, turkey's role in an influence for everything with ukraine in nato'ssided with rusn many areas. as a democracy, as a place that imprisons journalists. it's a larger trend as to whether democratic backsliding is the norm. turkey has been on a classic case of a democratic backsliding. the last to years since erdogan has run the place, it's become

increasingly illiberal. it's moved away. i'll be honest with ya, i'm pretty disappointed with the results. the fact that erdogan got such a plurality, came very close to the 50% mark. the third party that got about a 5% of the votes is more to his right. the politics and his ability to, let's say, influence the counting of vote, it is almost a lock now he'll continue on as the leader of the country. that's bad news for the united states, europe and ukraine. this is a real disappointing outcome. it just shows still how raek weak and divide td opposition is in turkey. no one can be happy about this. we have two weeks until the final round, but i'm not feeling good about it. let's bring in the host of msnbc's "inside with jen psaki," jen psaki. former white house press secretary.

also, msnbc correspondent vaughn hillyard. jen, i want to show you a poll. last week, a poll was showed that was an abc news/"washington post" poll that had joe biden sitting at 36%, 37%, 38%, and washington melted down. i'm still reading about it. i wonder, are we going to be reading the next week and a half about this "economist "/ugov poll? "the economist" is one of the most represented publications in the world. it had a poll of registered voters. joe biden's approval rating, 50% among voters. disapproval, 47%. maybe it is an outlier, just like the 36% poll was an outlier. again, the question is, is the media going to obsess over this for a week and a half now? >> i think that's a bit of a rhetorical question, joe. no, of course not. the important thing about polls is looking at the running

average. you're right, there could be ute outliers, maybe both of the polls. if you're in the white house, democrats have mastered the art of bedwetting over polls. every poll, it's like the world is ending and we are, like, plummeting into the end of democracy. i will tell you, though, it's not the worst thing for a little bit of that to happen. because if joe biden is going to get a second term, democrats, independents, people who do not want to see a trump second term at this point, need to be freaked out. right now, you see with younger voters, a range of voters that have been the base of the democratic party, they're not at the level of excitement that's needed. a little freakout is good, but, yes, i don't expect that everybody is going to be out there talking about the poll where the president is at 50%. probably not. my bet is against it. >> yeah. reverend al, let me ask you a

question. i've heard time and again that black voters are not inspired by joe biden. the support is kind of flat right now. this despite the fact that black unemployment for black americans is at a record low. that black men have a lower unemployment rate right now than white men. why is it despite all of those gains, those historic gains, joe biden is still doing so poorly in some polls with black americans? >> i think it's an issue of messaging, of making the facts that you just brought up and other facts really resonate in the community. going to use the vehicles that black voters trust, like black radio, like influences that are there for issues they're concerned about, other than just

using people from capitol hill or people that are in the beltway who they don't really know. i think they have a story to tell, but it's who tells the story that i, therefore, will believe the story. you couldn't have more to work with than donald trump and desantis, what he is doing be -- with banning books and all. you have the things to work with, you just have to have the right people and right vehicles to deliver your message. i think they're trying to bring that together. i see who they just appointed as head of the campaign. i think they're starting to see that the messengers is always as important as the message. you know that. you and i as baptists, the preacher is as good as the text. a bad preacher can mess up a text. >> exactly. you get a bad preacher, people start slipping out the back halfway through the sermon and start lock inglooking for anoth

church. we'll see what happens. they've got -- again, they've got a good story to tell. they need to tell it. so donald trump and ron desantis and iowa this past weekend. the press has been saying it's over for desantis. i'm not so sure. i'm reminded what my father told me in the summer of 2007, when everybody said john mccain was on his way out. he was having a disastrous start to his primary presidential run. as i was leaving to fly back to new york, my dad said, don't count out john mccain. he's going to win the republican nomination. i was like, okay, dad, that's nice. but he did. so i just offer a warning to everybody in the press that's saying ron desantis is done, there's no way he can win. i'm not so sure. because at the end of the day, as desantis said, republicans have a culture of losing right now that's wrapped around donald

trump. would they really want to try to, quote, own the libs more than start winning elections again? i'm not sure. there's a set of polls that came out from public opinion strategies. it is one of the most respected republican pollsters, and they're not taking sides in this race, but they have some fascinating polls. despite the fact trump is beating desantis right now in these primary polls, in the general matchups, look at this. in colorado, in swing states, joe biden trounces trump by ten points. with ron desantis, it's just a three point race. in minnesota, joe biden easily beats donald trump. of course, of course. it's what we tell you every day. donald trump has runoff every swing voter. he's run off every independent. the cnn town hall meeting only

expedited the exodus. look, even in minnesota, desantis basically tied. same story in new mexico, a state that, well, democrats won easily. in new mexico, joe biden crushes donald trump. when joe biden is up against ron desantis, too close to fall. and in virginia, another state that's gone dark blue when you're talking about presidential contests, joe biden is leading donald trump by seven points. look at that, he's in a dead heat with ron desantis. jonathan lemire, this is not to say that ron desantis is a giant killer. this is to say what we say every day here, that donald trump has gone out of his way to offend swing voters and swing states.

he is poison for the republican party. ron desantis, again, may be because they don't know everything he's done, maybe because he's a new face in some of these states. ron desantis does so much petter than donald trump in the swing states, that you've got to believe at some point that republicans are going to start focusing on winning instead of just the shock offer that donald trump has been performing for eight years now. >> it seems like every step trump makes become more extreme, which might help him in the republican primary, at least so far. it's hurting him in the general election. we talk about that on a daily basis here, joe. this is what so many republicans have been fearful of. a message that was driven home in 2022 when trump candidates faired so poorly in the midterms. that he and his message can't win. he has too much baggage. this is only with one indictment under his belt and more potentially coming. for desantis, this is his theory

of the case, is that i can bring you what you like about trump without all of the bad things that come with it, without the history, without the election denialism, without the january 6th. his team will certainly be pointing to these polls. even as they try to, perhaps, deflect some of his own extreme positions as governor of florida. let's talk about december nmsz ron desantis, vaughn. he's way behind trump. there's been a lot of press for him. a damning story over the weekend about how his inner circle, republican donors are backing away from him, saying he needs a reset and needs a reset now. well, he went to iowa. trump didn't because he canceled a rally because of a tornado warning. do they think this is the beginning of a desantis turnaround? >> look, i was in iowa this weekend, and i was having a hard time finding any iowa republicans who were willing to place a bet on ron desantis. donald trump is the odds-on favorite there. they're looking back from 2016.

they're looking at the eight years and just the extent to which donald trump has built support within the republican party. but at the same time, look who ended up making their way across iowa this weekend. donald trump, there was a tornado watch, canceled the rally on saturday. instead, you saw ron desantis in sioux city with the senators. he made his way to cedar rapids and then des moines, to stick it in, if he gets into the race, that as one ally who was on the ground with me in iowa said, he intends to grind this out. the only way to beat donald trump is to do that, in the ted cruz fashion. his personality hit that, though, can he be that kind of a candidate? he needs the split screens, where he is making his way around iowa while donald trump is doing other things.

what was the other thing for donald trump on saturday? instead of being in iowa, he placed a phone call into michael flynn's, quote, reawaken tour. this was being held at trump doral. what is the reawaken tour? it is a christian nationalist, conspiracy theory movement, a conference in which hundreds of thousands of individuals gather. i want you to hear donald trump's phone call into that election. >> general flynn, he's some general, some man. he took abuse like nobody could have handled. >> that's right. >> he came out bigger, better, stronger than ever before. we love him. he's a leader. you just stay wealthy and healthy and well and everything. i want you to have great lives. general, you just have to stay healthy because we're bringing you back. we're going to bring you back. [ applause ] >> my wife is going crazy. >> we're proud of you. i want to thank general flynn

for being a very brave man who was absolutely tortured. he is stronger now. he is stronger now than he ever was. it takes somebody very special to pull that off. >> we're bringing you back into the trump administration. for folks who have forgotten michael flynn over the years, you'll recall, he left the white house after he lied to vice president pence about his conversations during the transition period with the russian ambassador. flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi during the same conversations. he pleaded guilty to the fbi for lying and not disclosing his work of hundreds of thousands of dollars with the turkish government. he's the one who was pardoned by donald trump weeks after the 2020 election. who was his lawyer? sidney powell. after that, he's become a close ally who has continued to spread conspiracy theories related to the 2020 election. also, he's continued to spread conspiracy theories about russia's invasion into ukraine,

saying russia exposed the bioweapons that the u.s. has funded. that is michael flynn. that's the split screen out of the weekend in iowa. donald trump calling into michael flynn and the christian national conspiracy theory movement, versus ron desantis actually in iowa making the case for republicans. >> it's a dramatic split screen. iowa, new hampshire, showing up matters. not just showing up at rallies, but doing the ground work that desantis was doing. actually does make a difference over the long haul. richard haass, i want to quote donald trump himself from december 2nd, 2017. this was on his twitter account. donald trump said, i had to fire general flynn because he lied to the vice president and lied to the fbi. he has pled guilty to those lies. it's a shame because his actions during the transition were lawful. but he said, i had to fire flynn

because he lied to the vice president and he lied to the fbi. this is just vintage donald trump. now calling in to a conspiracy theorist event at doral, which had people who had spoken warm about hitler. he calls in and says he's going to rehire michael flynn. can you talk about how dangerous that was the first time and how more dangerous that would be to the united states if he did that? >> look, joe, to make a long story short, michael flynn should not have a security clearance. he should be nowhere near the 18 acres of the white house complex. hopefully if he ever were nominated for something, he couldn't get confirmed. he doesn't have to be confirmed to the national security adviser. again, seriously, he should not be anywhere near anything to do with classified material or any type of national security. this connects to the trump

answer on ukraine, by the way. it's a reminder of what the stakes are potentially if trump gets the nomination in 2024. we're not just talking about the future of american democracy. we are talking about the fundamentals of american foreign policy, between donald trump, michael flynn. you are talking about people who are essentially sympathetic to russia. i think this would mean the undoing of nato, the undoing of our security partnerships in europe and in asia, and i just think that would -- you want to see a change in the trajectory of history in the wrong direction, this will get it. the combination of donald trump and michael flynn is toxic to american national security. i don't know any other way to put it. >> yeah, toxic, dangerous. jen psaki, i mean, i don't even know where we begin. michael flynn back in the white house. >> yeah. >> donald trump refusing to support ukraine. actually winning a war that vladimir putin started with his

invasion. donald trump talking about terminated the constitution of the united states. donald trump leading an insurrection against the united states with riots. now talking about wanting to pardon those people as, quote, political prisoners. you can go on and on. the stakes just keep getting higher every day, don't they? >> that's exactly right. i mean, mitt romney said it very well, i think the end of last week. he basically said, a second trump term would be untethered. that is the greatest risk of a second trump term. every time i speak with a former colleague, a former national security official or ones who have lived in that world for decades, they always raise what richard just raised, which is that what could happen in a second trump term is that he is unhooked into any politics. he's not running for another term. he doesn't abide by the rule of law. he doesn't abide by the rule of global engagement. that means he does whatever he wants.

yes, he brings michael flynn back, but he pulls out of nato, removes the united states' seat at the table, no longer supports allies around and world. he no longer supports democracy here or over seas. my former boss, president obama, would raise this during the transition, the risk is hire than one trump term because of the untethered nature of it. >> all right. vaughn hillyard, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. ahead on "morning joe," president biden is expected to resume debt ceiling talks with congressional leaders tomorrow. we'll have the latest from capitol hill. and business is going to break. vice media has filed for bankruptcy. when it was at its peak, the digital news company was valued at $5.7 billion. it failed to mature, much like

buzzfeed. vice could be bought for $25 million. it's the latest in digital media implosions. as a certain author wrote three, four years agee, television is the new television. i mean, it's the story that just keeps repeating itself. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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more solar. more wind. made in america. tell joe biden to keep working for more jobs and less pollution. (♪ music ♪) (♪ ♪) (♪ ♪) where could reinvention take your business? accenture. let there be change. jonathan, pretty surprising news over the weekend coming from "the washington post." they've got it at the top of their page today. that the head of the wagner group actually was talking about turning on the russians, giving

up positions of russian troops to kyiv so that the ukrainians could kill the russians. in exchange for kyiv backing off going against the wagner group in bakhmut. >> yeah, this story really sent shockwaves around washington and european capitals allied with kyiv in the war against russia. let's get into it. ahead of an anticipated counteroffensive by ukrainian forces, the head of the wagner group made an extraordinary office. i'll read from it. if commanders withdrew their soldiers from the area around bakhmut, he would give kyiv information on russian troop positions, which ukraine could use to attack them. this is according to previously unreported u.s. intelligence documents. nbc news has not reviewed the documents in question. meanwhile, ukrainian president

volodymyr zelenskyy wrapped up a visit to france, meeting with french president macron, who announced afterwards that his nation is providing more military aid to ukraine, including armored vehicles and tanks. today, president zelenskyy is visiting the united kingdom where more military aid is expected to be announced. before that, he was in berlin where the germans said they'd do the same. joining us now, marie yovanovitch. her memoir is out, including a new afterword about russia's war in ukraine. ambassador, great to see you again this morning. let's start by getting your reaction to that story, the idea that the head of the wagner group, which, of course, has risen to prominence here, particularly in the fighting around bakhmut, that he might be willing to deal with the ukrainians, to sell out the positions of russian troops. we know there's divide between him and the kremlin. looks like the ukrainians didn't take him up on it, but what does

this say about the state of putin's war? >> when you think you can't be surprised anymore, you get surprised by what's going on in russia. it's a little hard to judge this, whether this is a straightforward offer of working with the ukrainians or whether it is a double cross. we need more information. clearly, a lot is happening in russia today, particularly in moscow, you know, the various formations, whether it is wagner, the regular military, whether it's the chechens. they're all scorpions in a bottle trying to be the first among equals. >> it's richard haass here. why do you think ukraine is making such a stand at akhmut? it goes beyond any military significance. in some way, it drains resources from a different operation which is strategically for important. is this a symbol? is it strictly about politics,

or is it something more? >> i think you're right. it's symbolic. it was important to russia, has been important all along to putin. most recently, he wanted to take bakhmut by may 9th, victory day. that obviously didn't happen. i think because it was so important to russia and putin personally, it became important to the ukrainians and to president zelenskyy himself. so they have really thrown a lot at this. obviously, they've -- they have, you know, really taken a lot of russians but a lot themselves, as well. >> the cost to the russians has been heinous. i'm wondering if they knew, if that was their strategy, to inflict such heavy damage that you would have even the head of the wagner group trying to make a deal with kyiv. of course, they couldn't foresee that, but they could foresee the

waves of russians just running toward their guns and running to their deaths. >> yeah. well, yeah, i think you're right. that certainly is a strategy. for a long time, it wasn't clear that it was going to be successful. still not completely clear, but the ukrainians over the last week or so have managed to clock in some gains. you know, 2 square miles of gained territory, which is important. important in bakhmut and symbolically. >> it's jen psaki. there have been reports the amount of money left for the ukrainians from the united states is winding down and will wind down this summer. this pitch to democrats and republicans as s a tricky one. i wanted to ask you just about how concerned you are watching this andconveying to u.s. officials about what's happening

on the ground and why they need more funding. >> i think you can see that zelenskyy is making a european tour right now. i wouldn't be surprised -- i don't have information on this, but i wouldn't be surprised if he would come to the united states, as well, to explain directly to leaders what is happening, what their plans are, and, you know, next steps forward. obviously, the expected counteroffensive, whenever it comes and the ukrainians, not surprisingly, are not making an announcement on this, what date the russians should be ready, but when it comes, it's going to be important. but i think we don't want to read too much into what happens at the end of it, because even if it is wildly successful beyond everybody's dreams, it's not going to be the end of the war. we need to be in this for the long haul, for as long as it takes, as president biden says. i think we need to -- i think that's the message that zelenskyy needs to keep on

sharing with publics and world leaders. this is a war that matters to the world community, as well. this is not just a ukrainian war. >> richard, i wanted to ask you about china. there's been reports, despite the reported acrimony and back and forth with the united states and china, it's been reports now that there is the possibility of some constructive dialogue, constructive meetings with china. what can you tell us? >> late last week, two days of meetings with jake sullivan and the most senior foreign policy official in china. this is the first serious engagement after the balloon back and forth, the postponement of secretary blinken's trip. the readouts of the meeting were almost old fashion diplomacy. it was things like candid, honest, serious, no public leaks. this was no longer fighting it out in public like we saw in

munich. this was serious foreign policy. my view is that, from what meet this, the war in ukraine. that's what is significant. china, more than any other country, is in a position to influence russia. vladimir putin cannot be comfortable with this report. if china decides for its own reasons they want the war to wind down, they don't want american allyship to improve, whatever reasons they have economically, that could be an important development. i'd simply say, you know, watch that space. quietly, this, to me, was probably the most interesting foreign policy development we've seen in weeks, if not months. the united states and china have reopened a serious conversation. >> all right. richard haass, thank you so much. richard, who wins this weekend? >> ah, xander schauffele, i think. but i'm rooting for cameron

young. he's from scarborough, new york, should be your guy, too. cameron young. >> richard, most of us here, i won't speak for the ambassador, but most of us here just think you're still making names up. former u.s. ambassador to ukraine. >> the town even. >>yovanovitch, thank you for being with us. appreciate it. your book, "lessons from the edge" is out in paperbook. coming up, social media's impact on mental health as more young girls are reporting feeling extreme sadness or hopelessness. plus, the city of buffalo marks one year since a bigoted mass shooting at a grocery steer. reverend al was at yesterday's memorial, and he'll talk about it when "morning joe" comes back. could get even better? me, i knew. maybe you should host a commercial then. sure, okay.

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we are we one year later? the insanity hasn't stopped,

hasn't abated. the tears and cries for help haven't been answered from republicans in congress, who refuse to do anything about common sense gun reform that the majority of americans, democrats, republicans, want. we had so many reforms. the best of all, reverend al, is something every governor should do right now, not just the 19 who have, and that is to enhance the red flag laws. but every governor can do that while we're holding our breath, waiting once again for congress to do the right thing and finally ban these assault weapons that have no place in society. the only place is on a battlefield, and that's what they were designed for. we're angry here. we're not satisfied with the pace of action, and i support president biden for having the courage to do something that people say is a tough issue. but you've got to lean into the tough issues because who else will? >> reverend al, that obviously was your interview yesterday with new york governor kathy hochul. but talk about, if you will,

being in buffalo, going back and remembering those who lost their life in that racially-motivated massacre. just a nightmare. people going out, grand moms going out to shop for groceries and getting gun down. >> it was a very moving day to do on mother's day. because as you know, i was there a year ago when it happened. national action network, my organization, helped may for most of, if not all of the funerals. to be back with the families who we've stayed in touch with some of them, it hit me. this is the first mother's day that some of them are missing their mothers. some of them were missing their grandmothers. some of them are mothers missing their children, all on a race attack and an attack by a guy with a military style weapon that literally had been

livestreaming while he was doing the attack. the governor and the majority leader schumer and attorney general tish james, all of us actually went to the tops supermarket where it happened. laid flowers down with members of the family. i preached at two of the churches. i wanted to get up at one of the churches and say there's progress made, but we've had more mass shootings since the mass shooting last year, and racial shootings. we're seeing a kid rings a doorbell, it's the wrong doorbell, and he gets shot. so all we could say is that we've got to keep fighting. these families have been, in many ways, continuing to fight and making sure this doesn't continue to happen. they've been real soldiers, but it's not a situation that you can give a false report, that

things seem to be better. if anything, things seem to be still spiraling in the wrong direction. >> reverend al, we heard in your interview with governor hochul that she was calling for red flag laws, banning assault weapons. obviously, these mass shootings impact communities differently. you've been so close to this community. what do they want to see happen, these survivors, these family members? are they activated? are they grieving? is it a combination? >> they've been very activated. three of them announced a lawsuit just two days ago against some of the social media companies. they feel that they helped to incite what happened with this guy who had written out what he felt about blacks and what needed to happen. they felt he was incited by that. you have those that have done lawsuits. you have the whitfields who have been lobbying, in and out of the white house, been a part of what

we've been doing. a young man who lost his mother started a nonprofit. they've been active. and the survivors, one of the telling things that was touching to me and senator schumer was spending time with zaya, who was shot but survived. all of them have been proactive because they live this every day. they will never, ever not think about this. not only on holidays. >> it's such an important work. let's turn now to a national crisis of a different sort. a recent cdc survey finds that nearly three in five teen girls say they have felt persistent sadness or hopelessness. that's the highest rate in a decade. 30% said they have seriously considered dying by suicide. a percentage that's risen by nearly 60% over the past ten years. our next guest says social media may play a factor in higher

depression rates among kids and teens. joining us now, professor of psychology, doctor, thank you for being here. you're the author of "generations: the difference between g en-z, millenials, boomers, and the psyche." this focuses on younger american s grappling with sadness and depression. what is the role you found that social media may play? >> i've been doing this work on generational differences for a long time. i get used to seeing changes that were big, but they take a decade or two to get there. all of a sudden, around 2012, these indicators of teen mental health, anxiety, depression, self-harm, suicidal thoughts started to rise. they rose really quickly over a

short period of time. between 2011, 2019, teen depression doubled. so this is a problem that has been going on for at least ten years. long before the pandemic. what it does coincide with is the rise of smartphones and especially social media among teens. >> so a recent "new york times" op-ed that has the title "what our toxic culture does to the young," cites your book. brooks writes this, the members of gen-z are practicing the slow life strategy with a vengeance. they've already transformed adolescence. as high school seniors, they're less likely to do things associated with adulthood, like drinking alcohol, working for pay or having sex. they grew up with hypercautious parenting that exaggerates the dangerers in life. they grew up in a media culture that generates ratings and clicks by generating division and anger. they grew up in a political

culture that magnifies a sense of menace, presuming other people are toxic, in order to tell simplistic us/them stories and mobilize people's fears. people who grew up in this culture of distrust are bound to adopt self-protective codes of behavior. they are bound to be pessimistic about life and are also less likely to believe they can control their own destiny. doctor, what could be done about this? that's certainly laying out the construct there of, you know, the perhaps well-meaning but overly protective parents creating this culture of fear. how worried are you? >> i'm really concerned about the mental health impacts of technology. so in terms of what can we do, we could raise the minimum age for social media to 16 and actually verify age. we could require parental permission to open a social

media account. we know that the more hours a day a teen spends on social media, the more likely it is he or she is going to be depressed. that impact is the strongest at the youngest ages. some of these other trends are not as negative. they have trade-offs. most parents are thrilled that high school students are not as likely to have sex or drink alcohol, but it also means they're less likely to go out with their friends. they're less likely to have a driver's license. they're less likely to have a job. they're doing these adult activities later, and that's not all good or all bad, but it does mean when they graduate from high school, they have less experience with independence. that can also have an impact on mental health, especially when they have to make these decisions and try to be independent when they just don't have as much experience with that. >> doctor, this is jen psaki. my daughter is almost 8, and like many parents with kids that

age, i wonder, what should we be doing when our kids are not yet teenagers but they are starting to be exposed to social media through a range of ways. is there a recommendation? when should they get a phone? what should they have access to on the phone? these are the kinds of things i discuss with my friends all time. i'd love to know what your thoughts are. >> i have kids myself, 16, 13 and 11. my first suggestion is put off getting a smartphone for your kid for as long as you possibly can. then if they do need a phone for taking the bus or for something else, get the old fashioned flip phone, or get them a pared down smartphone, like a gab phone. our 13-year-old has one of those. you can call, text and take pictures. that's it. there's no ability to play games or, more importantly, no ability to download a social media app. it's a problem.

any parental permission, kids can download it and spend a ton of time on it, sometimes without their parents even knowing. my other suggestion is, for everybody, no devices, no phones, no tablets in the bedroom overnight. we know from tons of research that people do not sleep as well if their devices are right there. if you say, i need it there because it's my alarm clock, i have some advice for you. buy an alarm clock. >> i'll note that my 11-year-old son has one of those gab phones. a dumb phone, if you will. i cannot recommend it strongly enough. professor of psychology at san diego state university, dr. twenge, thank you for joining us. important work. coming up, a look at the stories front pains of newspapers across the country this morning, including the cost for florida taxpayers to fund governor ron desantis' legal battle with disney why there's the split screen again why the

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a beautiful sunny morning there in new york city. 7:54 a.m. gorgeous sunshine. it is time now for a look at the morning papers. we'll begin in new jersey where the south jersey times highlights a study on fentanyl related deaths among children. research shows the number of child overdose deaths increased 30 fold from 2013 to 2021. 94% attributed to fentanyl.

staying in the garden state the trenton times reports the state is not proposing requiring public school students be vaccinated against covid-19, the flu and hpv despite a recommendation by the cdc. the state health department discussed the possibility of requiring it but the move received backlash from republicans who said parents should give input. students are required to be vaccinated against measles, mumps, polio and chickenpox. the tallahassee democrat has a front page feature on the florida legislature including money in the state's budget for the governor's legal battles. unprecedented nearly $16 million was included in the budget for litigation costs, going toward the governor's feud with disney and will also be used to fight a lawsuit that challenges a new

measure that imposes restrictions own public employee labor unions. and finally in illinois the chicago tribune has a feature on the city's new mayor. brandon johnson will be sworn in today. johnson ran the campaign on an anti-establishment platform and promised to uplift the working class. still ahead on "morning joe," ron desantis had iowa to his himself this weekend. we'll look at the stops across the state and the latest polling involving the florida governor and the former president. that's straight ahead. be right back. ahhhh... with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting,

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they are the florida of the midwest. i started to watch more of what they did in this legislative session. they did a lot. maybe it is just that florida is the iowa of the southeast. i don't know. ron desantis praising iowa at a stop. one of the many stops in the state over the weekend which was supposed to be a show down between him and donald trump and the former president canceled the event because of weather. we have correspondent garret haake with the details. >> so great to be in cedar rapids. >> reporter: florida governor ron desantis making the 2024 sales pitch to iowa republicans touting the conservative record as the clock ticks to the official announcement. >> will have a chance to make sure that's done in every state in this country. >> reporter: likely to make the intentions official by the end of this month. today the political staff is set

to move into a new base of operations triggers disclosure statements. while desantis trails former president trump in most polls as the governor tries to name him. >> we must reject the culture of losing that infected the party. the time for excuses is over. >> reporter: mr. trump on saturday postponing an event stepping up the attacks against desantis. >> the problem is that he needs a personality transplant and those are not yet available. >> reporter: on cnn insisting the florida governor is no political threat. >> i'm leading him by a lot. by 40 points or 45 points.

>> reporter: with polls showing a tight race president biden is aiming to shore up support among the democratic base evoking the former president trump to graduates of howard university. >> to those who do anything and everything no matter how desperate or immoral to hold on to power. >> nbc's garrett haake with that report. we have jonathan lemire, reverend al sharpton and jen psaki and joining us is joe klein. you know, it is so interesting. we have been hearing that ron desantis has collapsed. he can't win. et cetera. i was thinking this weekend as daetsz going across iowa. hasn't announced yet. a time in the summer of 2007 where i was about to leave pensacola and walking out the door because everybody said

mccain's campaign was over. firing everybody. my dad turns to me and he goes, don't forget mccain. he is going to come back and win the nomination. right, dad. it is so early. people are trying to figure out who will win next year. we have a long way to go, don't we? >> it's just barely begun. i think a lot of the reason why we're so focused on this now is because of donald trump. you know? donald trump makes this an immediate problem every time he opens his mouth. the big problem is -- for us in the media with dealing with trump is he still has us -- we haven't laid a glove on him. >> it is interesting. obviously cnn came under fierce

criticism after the town hall meeting. but since that time you have had jake schafer at politico saying stop whining. we have to see this guy. you have written a column that i will read in a second saying the same thing. maureen dowd's latest column is titled "no playing ostrich with trump" saying this. the town hall was enlightning and frightening but we needed that reminder to be on full alert because trump is not just unhinged but cunning insurgent. the argument that the media should ignore trump is ridiculous. he's always going to find a platform. president biden needs to see what he is up against. there are only so many times biden can say, come on, man. in a debate.

the biden team is underestimating the opponent. the cascading indictments allow trump to play the gilt-dipped martyr. the challenge is to expose him. not to put fingers in the ears and sing. joe, it is interesting. i'll read part of the excellent column in a minute but seems to me we have the criticism followed by the false choice. hide the head in the sand or have the events like the cnn town hall meeting. you say there's a middle ground. what is it? >> be smarter about how we handle this. maybe less politically correct. you know? caitlin collins is an excellent journalist but it was like

having donald trump interviewed by his daughter. it would be more interesting with a father figure. fred trump was the most important figure in donald trump's life. he was a tough guy. and we need to have someone interviewing trump and we need to be more authoritative interviewing him and say things like, you can't really believe that, can you? no one's done that. not in a long time. and i think that i was critical of cnn in the piece that i wrote but i could be equally critical of the other networks, as well. in a way the guy who really knew how to do this is roger ales. the fox debates, the anchors like chris wallace and megyn

kelly were well prepared. >> you talked about megyn kelly and chris wallace in that first debate. he also talked about glen eiffel being somebody that sort of person, also, at cnn jake tapper and others. >> tim russert. >> of course. yeah. of course tim russert. tom brokaw. people like that. jamie gangel. former nbc now at cnn. different choices but again as joe klein wrote the most curious part and perhaps the gratest underperformer in that debate in that town hall meeting was the audience itself. >> yeah. no question. as we discussed at length last

week the audience packed with republicans. almost all trump supports that voted for him in 2020. let's read from joe's column asking where is trump's daddy? it is interesting to speculate what would happen to trump if interviewed by an anchor or my his father. fred trump was a paternal authoritarian. donald trump is a child. he needs to be treated like one and faced the occasion question teemed with mockery and disdain. go to your room. most important, there needs to be a prevailing air of sobrieties and also sanity. america is in a jittery state.

the media have been making it worse. fox with intent. cnn with an inanity. there's a need for a steady hand and carefully considered events. you lay out why the trump town hall was flawed and listed interviewers who are well suited for the task. beyond the moderator and the venue how should the media be approaching what is a new challenge here? now he is an insurrectionist candidate for president. >> the t media grappling with the same problem since 1990s with competition. people began -- cnn had to face

off. when ted turner invented it was stayed and reliable. almost a little boring. in the 1990s, news became entertainment because the networks were fighting for audiences. i think that now that we have an existential threat to the democracy in donald trump and also a tremendous hyper partisanship that we in the media have encouraged in a way it is time to turn back toward a more sober and not authoritarian but authoritative presentation in news. we have to be serious and we have to look very carefully at how we approach donald trump on air who interviews him, what is asked. i talked about roger ales

before. he created the first town meetings for nixon. he insisted on negative questions. we need to think about this hard in the media because we are in between donald trump and the country. and we aer the intermediaries between the country remaining a democracy or becoming an authoritarian state. >> joe, about the tactics, the sober and down the middle journalism is something people call for they say they want. i think on some level that's what cnn was attempting to do in that town hall and treated trump like a normal person. thinking about the next town hall or interview, do you think they should be calling him out in the moment? should they be pushing back on

him in the moment in something more aggressive? how do you think the next journalist should approach it? >> this is nothing against caitlin collins. she is a tough white house correspondent who didn't back down from trump in this but we have to think about more carefully the kind of questions we ask him. we have to be prepared when he lies not to say you said but to show a clip of him saying the exact opposite. we have to be prepared and we have to be very candid about the threat that this guy poses. you can't just say he lied, he lied, he lied. this is far more important here. the nature of our democracy. and i got to say i have spent time traveling across the

country. did road trips working for "time" magazine and there is a real consensus about most issues in this country. there's an extreme on the right, on the left. we in the media play to the loudest voices. we have to be the representatives of the vaths majority of americans who are sick of this. >> while on the same topic, "the new york times" writes if networks continue to interview donald trump in a traditional way the questions need to be focused on topics that a right leaning american might find illuminating. he writes this. drilling into the record on conservative terms asking about the failure to complete the border wall or the surge in crime in the last year of the

administration and as eric ericsson writes, asking obvious questions from the stolen election narrative. why did the administration, the chosen attorney general, and the appointed judges basically just let them do it and that's really what i -- rev, i kept waiting for trump to be asked, what about the 63 federal judges that said you are lying? what about the supreme court? three justices that you appointed and had a majority on the supreme court. why did they say there's no widespread voter spread? why did two say the one thing they did write in an opinion that there wasn't widespread

fraud that would southwest ing the election in pennsylvania which was the case they were looking at? why is it that maricopa county officials found the results in arizona legitimate? same with georgia. same with pennsylvania. same with the republicans in michigan. every state. i agree with ross. why don't you take him on there instead of letting hinl lie wildly? >> i think if you approach him like that he really can't answer it clearly and he risked in many ways alienating people that he needs to be what he has become. he can't attack the judges and attorney general and others without dealing with some things that he really does not want to

do. but one of the things that strikes me, joe, in reading your column is that when you talk about the father, fred trump, being most important person in his life and those that dealt with trump 40 years -- >> you got chapter and verse. >> that's for sure. know an insecurity has been that he felt the established park avenue real business guys always look down on him and his father. what hit me writing the line you talked about dealing with him on policy. it would almost be like the reflex would be, oh, they are looking down on me. they don't think i understand policy. he doesn't. >> he does not. i think that trump comes on all

strong and macho but as i wrote he is a big baby. he is a coward. you talk to his chiefs of staff, general kelly. he doesn't have the guts to fire somebody. he doesn't have the guts to confront people. you know? he is a school yard bully. we knew how to deal with those when we were kids. especially those of us that grew up in queens and brooklyn. >> jen psaki, what's the approach that you would take? what's a question that you would ask? we have a little space between the cnn town hall meeting, the fear and loathing, the locusts and frogs all that is passed us by. people have been reflecting on it this weekend. what is your reflection. how should the next network handle donald trump? >> i'll first say i do as much

as i respect joe a great deal disagree on the who should interview him. looking back on the debates in 2020 kristen welker was the best moderator hands down. she is a young woman of color. >> savannah guthrie. >> amazing job. i would say i would ask about what he would want to do in a second term. that would be incredibly revealing. a million questions to ask as follow ups to that. that's really what people should be focusing the brains and the minds on. i do think conservative questions that are of interest to a conservative audience are useful. a telling policy thing from that debate with many horrifying moenlts was when he refused to answer the question on whether he would sign an abortion ban. there are moments of policy that would be awakening.

not decided opinion that necessarily but i would ask about the plans for a second term and have a response on the nasty woman comment as they should have. >> yes. joe, tell us about the new column on sub stack. i signed up for it. >> called santi clause. you can find it on sub stack. and the reason why it started doing it is that i feel that we have been tiptoeing around a lot of issues, especially those of us who have spent the careers in the legacy media. i think that on a lot of issues we have been too politically correct. race, crime, education, sexuality jrue teenly cnn calls it gender affirming medications

for trans people rather than sex changing operations. they call them across the border undocumented rather than illegal. we have been more straight forward in the way to discuss things so that we don't offend a great number of people in the society who don't understand what we're talking about talking about gender affirming care. >> thank you both. still ahead on "morning joe," the presidential election in turkey appears to be heading to a runoff. some say it's bad news for the alliance. plus, admitting republicans lost track of the key witness that really backed up the party's claims of corruption in

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it appears that turkey will hold a runoff election. that will pit incumbent president erdogan against his democratic challenger who pledged to quote revive democracy in the nation why this weekend's election failed to produce a candidate to clear the threshold needed to win out right. erdogan led by roughly 5 points and runoff vote will take place on may 28. so the world is watching this carefully. we know that president erdogan at times a thorn in the side of nato. >> coming also those news reports coming from a state news

agency controlled by a man who has persecuted more journalists over the last decade than any other. i'm skeptical. the opponent believes they will be ahead. talk about this. let's bring in former supreme allied commander james stravidis. explain how important this turkey election is and more specifically how far they have back slidden in the 10, 12 years since erdogan has taken office. >> it is worrisome. start with the geography. turkey is a big country in between europe, asia, volatile middle east.

a dynamic, young population and second largest military in nato only after the united states. a big actor, very important to the alliance. you have to consider that erdogan if he wins this election will have completely consolidated power in turkey and edged up to it. i think the odds are 75 to 80% probably achieve that in the coming runoff in two weeks. you will see peak erdogan. he will be in control of the country. imprisoned journalists. pursuing conspiracy theories. been very difficult for the alliance. third and final point, what's he going to do? will he continue the behavior like buying russian weapons? getting close to putin?

objecting preposterously to the inclusion of sweden to the alliance? will he with confidence recognize that he's got to get the economy moving? that's the big problem for turkey. will he lean back to the alliance? we don't know. this is not good news for nato. china send a top envoy to europe. what beijing really wants by stepping into the fray. nbc's kooer simmons joins us straight ahead on "morning joe." when uc got unpredictable, i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. and left bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc got in my way, i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when my gastro saw damage, rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting, steroid-free remission.

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committee is saying that president biden's family engaged in schemes. james comber talked about the allegation in an interview yesterday and admitted they have lost contact with a submarine. with the informant that made the initial claim. >> you have spoken with whistle-blowers. spoke with an informant with the information. where is that informant today? where with the whistle-blowers? >> unfortunately we can't track down the informant. the whistle-blower knows the informant. >> did you just say that the informant is missing?

>> well, we are hopeful that we can find the informant. these informants are kind of in the spy business and don't make a habit of being seen a lot or being high profile or anything like that. 9 of the 10 people that we've identified with very good knowledge with respect to the bidens one of three things, maria. currently in court. in jail. or missing. >> so, comrade, you are telling me you lost another submarine? lost the informant. the guy you claimed gave you all this information that you built this entire charade on. do you endure them? do you have tea parties to talk about how to destroy the

careers? remember durham? tried to prove that the fbi was corrupt. made a fool of himself time epa time again. now we have lost informants. the informant that the charade was supposedly built on. this on twitter, represented whistle-blowers more than 25 years and never lost one. never lost one. i don't know where to begin with this one except for the fact that we had this breathless huffing and puffing about the fbi being corrupt and staging january the 6th and spying on donald trump and then you had all of right wing papers saying

that durham was proving that hillary -- ended up being a lie. durham made an absolute fool of himself and had to shut down the investigation. now comer said we have in informant who we built the case on but we lost him. it is more of the same. >> yeah. the hunt for the great white whale isn't going well. is it? it is not good to lose the informant. comer is making a big promise after another. will have a big bombshell. what's praet obvious is he doesn't have the bombshell and lost the informant. beyond embarrassing. this is what happens with an internet meme and a narrative against reality. you have been promising us

something really huge. something to change everything. it doesn't happen. james comer is all hat and no cattle with this investigation. when maria is saying are you kidding me? you don't have evidence? questioning the credibility you know how bad things are. >> exactly. >> the hunt for red october is a good reference. on seinfeld jerry says one thing to take the reservation but you have to hold the reservation. you got to hold on to him to make sure he can cooperate with the investigation but seems to be a moment where the republican party seems out of touch. promising a biden crime family investigation for a long time. there's legal matters with hunter biden.

that investigation is in the end stages but the blanket conspiracy never gained much traction. what are they thinking now? >> listening to that conversation it may as well be a mad libs. he could be talking about ufos. we heard from them. we don't know where they are. it's hard to keep track of them. what are we talking about here? from a disinformation perspective this is a rare moment of lucidity seeing that the emperor has no clothes and this is bunk based on no real evidence whatsoever because whistle-blowers don't go missing. this is absurd why this is a moment to recognize that most americans are not clued into the ginned up conspiracy theories.

this is for a very small, specific audience in the republican base that can be animated by these conspiracy theories. i think the rest of america is going what are you talking about? i'm looking at the price of life and livings in this country. i'm interested in jobs, the border, housing insecurity. how to feed my kids. nobody cares about the conspiracy theories except for the small part of the republican base that is controlling the republican party like a ventriloquist at the moment it seems. it is a really bizarre situation politically and culturally. what are the people talking about? completely out of touch. >> yeah. not talking about inflation and

the issues that matter to most americans. when they do the biden crime family thing they do two things to the base. first thing is they get them revved up about the biden crime family like the wife of a certain supreme court justice. and then the second thing is that there i go. the media is bias. won't report about the biden crime family. just like the fbi. you had durham investigate the investigators longer than the investigation actually went on trying to prove that the fbi and the deep state had it out for donald trump and it was nothing. only thing that came out of that

investigation that durham destroyed the reputation and career. in this case why aren't you talking about the biden laptop and this and that? i'll say what i have said here time and again. hunter biden is investigated by justice department for i think tax issues. hunter biden is charged. okay. you know? it is crazy. other than trumpists most americans believe that no man or woman is above the law. if he is arrested, guilty rg goes to jail that's too bad. but that's the system! unlike republicans who basically say they will burn down american democracy if somebody on the republican side is actually brought to justice for crimes that they have committed. that's the big difference.

comer has nothing on this supposed biden crime family deal that the trump right absolutely obsess about. >> well, what is strange to me is if you are running a campaign for president and certainly for the senate and the congress next year why do you want to remind people about crimes that you can't deliver an informant that's lost when the leader is under indictment? you shouldn't want to bring up investigations and crimes when a indicted person is leading the party? most voters could care less what

they are saying but people will say investigations? didn't they indict the candidate in manhattan? under investigation in georgia? didn't lose miss carroll who won the lawsuit against him. so if that is what you are going to use as a measure i think you lose that one 7 to 8 to 0. i think it is now practiced politically and it is laughable in terms of people that follow the things. you don't lose informants texas republicans push voting restrictions aimed at houston. that's straight ahead on "morning joe."

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welcome back. on sunday today on nbc willie sat down with jessica chastain. the 46-year-old mother of two opened up about the work in hollywood, the love of theater and the moment she won oscar gold. ♪♪ >> you got to get to work? >> let's do it. >> have you ever had a door with your face on it? >> never. >> my head is huge. >> what's going on? >> sit down. >> the curtain is about to rise for jessica chastain on another performance of "the dolls house" first performed in denmark in 1879. its then radical message still

holds up nearly a century and a half later. this is a modern look at it. >> this is a woman, a mother, a wife, a friend who has found herself living a life of deceit in trying to help others and doesn't know who she is anymore. i find it to be so incredibly relevant not just for women but anyone who feels like they are not allowing themselves to be their authenticselves because of a fear of not being granted certain privileges or rights. >> what challenge does that present to you? because you also don't leave the stage. >> it is very difficult. the director goes we won't do i remember the director. we have no props. i don't understand this. i don't know how to do that. jamie just looked at me and said, do it with your acting. >> okay. >> you want the play to feel

like a close-up. it really feels that i am absolutely under the microscope. a graduate of new york's prestigious juilliard school. the california native has been under hollywood's microscope. working in "the tree of life" and a socialite in "the help." and then a cia agent searching for osama bin laden. and that earned her nominees and newly minted tony nominee some the theater where she has always felt at home. >> once i started taking the drama class, i was -- >> those are your people. >> i was reading shakespeare in the car. that's not something that speaks to it in high school. i realize you just can't do the

classes. you got to show up for pe. i only look pe twice. >> wow, that's rare. >> no, i didn't want to do pullups. >> i was watching you through almost two hours of this play, thinking, my god, that's draining. >> it's -- it's exhausting, but also invigorating. i love doing theater. it's what i first learned to do. i was so excited by it. and the opportunity of, i do, i could live in new york city and do theater. i feel so excited after a performance i'm exhausted but i can't even take a nap. >> really -- >> i have too much -- >> your adrenaline pumps in? >> too much adrenaline, i'd go to the stagedoor, 5:30, during covid, i wore a mask at the oscars, everyone thought i was crazy. >> and the award goes to jessica chastain. >> everyone makes fun of me, i

never think it's going to happen so i'm shocked. i make those weird unattractive faces. >> just taken showed that face again last year when she won her take on evangelist tammy faye bakker. >> the press hates us because we're winning millions of soul-searching jesus. >> do you think about the scope of your life at 10 years old, going with your grandmother, to see a play, oh, i want to do that. and all of those things you want do in that moment does that hit or before? >> it comes before. it comes with that recognize, my grandmother moved me to new york when i first moved to juilliard. she stayed with me in my dorm room a few times. >> didn't she take you to bed bath & beyond?

>> oh, yeah, my shower caddy, the whole thing. >> you're a new yorker? >> for sure. i take the subway. i just love being pat of the community. do you see i'm starting to talk more like a new yorker now. >> and the little accent, too. >> there's something about it. it does something to a person. >> she recently flashed her happiness in tammy. >> she stars as country music icon tammy wynette. ♪ stand by your man give him two arms to cling to ♪♪ >> i imagine the scary prt of it, jessica, we need you to sing the song? >> terrifying. we'd do one take where the audience could hear the music,

sing to the music. so they sang to the vibe. and take two, in order to get our vocals clean, they would cut the music so the audience only heard our voice which is so vulnerable. you just look at all of those faces, hundreds of people. i'm sorry, guys, you're going to get a bad note once in a while. and they were so supportive. ♪♪ >> what does that mean to have your mean up on a marquee? cool. >> pretty cool. >> back on broadway, chastain has to play to a new audience evernight. >> walking out out of a stagedoor on broadway, see so many people waiting. >> it's crazy. it makes me feel so grateful. i always look back at the kid imagining doing theater in new york some day. wow, you did it. i still can't wrap my head around it. >> that was willie's 80 sunday sitdown" with jessica chastain.

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(woman) yes! (vo) close in a matter of days. start with an all cash offer at opendoor dot com ♪♪ and welcome back to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast. would you just look at that. beautiful chamber of commerce day in san francisco. i say that, of course, for people listening on the radio right now.

it's kind of overcast and cloudy in san francisco right now. 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. beautiful in new york city. we've got reverend al sharpton, jonathan lemire and joining me in conversation, i don't know why we're doing this lemire. former contributorer nbc news and msnbc analyst claire mccaskill. claire, you know i love the cardinals, i love the cardinals for a variety of reasons. i love the cardinals this week. let me say this, first of all, red sox had two extraordinary pitching experiences. and one of the best relievers in baseball history blew two leads for the cardinals. i've got to say this, for the red sox, we've got paxton, just unbelievable start, sale looking as good as he's ever looked. so we're excited about that. we can take that. but i've got to say, arrendondo, i got to say, how low his

batting average was, he is one of the best players in baseball. this weekend, the guy was in beast mode. beast mode at the plate. beast mode at third base. he's got to be one of the best players in baseball over the last decade. >> listen, i can't get too excited yet. arenado did wake up clearly, he's been awol for the season. for the first time in history, joe, yankees and cardinals in last place in their divisions. it's been a weird start for all of hughes love the cardinals. but it was kind of fun to see a relief pitcher fall apart, a closer fall apart in the ninth inning because that's what we've done all year. see the bats come alive. if he can stay hot and goldie gets busy. back in the clubhouse, and a lot of leadership for the team, they

really miss yad spchld a great mother's day present. >> mothers from maine to massachusetts, down to rhode island and connecticut are weeping bitter, bitter tears this weekend. but, it's a game of numbers. this is what i love about baseball, is it averages out over the 162-game season. and jonathan lemire, you look at this cardinals team, they are so talented. it even outs. they're going to get better. of course, out red sox will only get worse. i'm joking, i'm joking, i love this team. i've said i love this team. and i actually takeaway -- because i'm so optimistic, i actually takeaway great things from this weekend. paxton and sale to look forward to. as long as we keep sale off of a

bike. >> my own mother susan lemire was in tears yesterday. >> and claire's happy about it. >> surprising anti-mom take for claire. james paxton hasn't pitched in years because of injury. he was terrific on friday. that's a step in the right direction if he says healthy. on saturday, looking like an ace again, sale, pitching great. in jansen blew the game. that's the fear, joe, cannily janzen. he's not going to save any more games, two crushing losses for the sox, much to claire's delight. >> rev, listen, we're all talking baseball. i know you want to talk about

the scripture. if you want to give us the scripture verse that was especially pertinent on sunday, you can. or if you want to tell us something about your mom that we may not know, you can tell us that, too. >> well, i was -- you know, my mother and i were boxing fans. and i will say for you, that with the yankees, and to my friend claire with st. louis, the first will be last. that's in the christian scripture. so, have faith. don't give up, the first will be last. >> all right. you there go. with that i think we're ready to get on with business. some new numbers show florida governor ron desantis will present a tougher general election challenge to president joe biden than donald trump. i know we've been talking about this for sometime, donald trump even talking about the cnn town hall meeting. what did he do in that cnn town hall meeting?

he aggravated a lot of people. aggravated people on the left. agitated a lot of people at the white house. he was driving away a lot of swing voters, driving away independents. he was offending the very people of people in the suburbs of atlanta, philly, detroit and mill week. the same people that he needed to pull in on this side. and it's showing up in the polls. according to a new survey from the republican-led research firm, public opinion strategies. one of the most respected in the gop. the florida governor is neck and neck with biden if four swing states, republicans haven't won since 2004. now, look at these numbers and you tell me what republicans want to drive off an electoral cliff with donald trump again? i don't think they do, by the way. in colorado, the polls show joe biden crushing donald trump, 49% to 39%, which he would.

but look at desantis. look how much closer he is within the margin of error, three points. in minnesota, survey shows biden trouncing trump by eight points, 48 to 40. but there's ron desantis, again, in a statistical dead heat, then move on, the next state, new mexico. now, new mexico, biden's crushing trump even more. 49% to 38%. but wednesday again, in new mexico, margin of error with desantis and biden tied. and in virginia, biden leads trump by seven points, according to the survey. but is in a dead heat. 44% to 44%, with ron desantis. you know, claire, this ain't rocket science. it's just not hard. but, you know, donald trump is doing everything he can do to drive off independents, to drive

off swing voters. to drive off educated women that are in the suburbs. everything he can do. you look at the poll numbers from public opinion strategies, i've known glenn for 30 years now, one of the best pollsters in the business. donald trump is succeeding, he's driving away swing voters. >> yeah. the only thing i would say about ron desantis at this point is he really hasn't been beat up yet. a lot of those people that were polled know the name. and they really don't like donald trump. and so, they're saying, yeah, we like ron desantis better than donald trump. but desantis hasn't been defined. i mean, he's going to get really hurt in this primary process. because trump will go after him, you know, with everything. i mean, he's going to take a 2x4 to his head, to say something about the other people that will run, that will go after desantis

also. bus he is, in fact, after trump, the most viable candidate. so, by the time, if desantis wins the prim marry. and i'm not saying that he couldn't or may not, he's going to be a different candidate than he is right now. he will have a lot of the baggage that biden has that keeps him below 50 in these polls in states that have been recently pretty reliable blue. >> and the point is, though, jonathan lemire, right now, trump is saying ron desantis is finished. right now, we're hearing some people in media saying ron desantis is finished. it's early, at this point, people are riding the same stories about john mccain going into the summer, saying he was broke. he was having to fire staffers left and right. everybody was talking about a rudy/hillary matchup in 2008, that never materialized. it was early. my takeaway, with the polls, are

not about ron desantis, but donald trump. he's succeeded widely at getting swing voters on his side and having to get elected in the general election, and he's just not doing it. my point is if you voted for trump in '16 and you went to biden in '20, you're not going back to trump in '24. because what's happened since '20? january 6th. the indictments lining up one after another after another. by the way, people go, oh, man, it just makes the base love him more. no, it may have that 33% love the guy more. it doesn't make, you know -- it doesn't make women in atlanta love him more. it doesn't make women in philadelphia love him more. just the asp. opposite. you add on top of that the dobbs decision, you add on top of that

terminating the constitution. on top of that e. jean carroll, him being find liable for sexual assault against e. jean carroll, you lie on top of that him saying at the deposition and town hall meeting. yeah, that's what we've been able to do for millions of years, we've been able to sexually abuse women. with no apologies. with no apologies. trump is succeeding beyond his wildest expectation if his goal is to drive down his numbers with independents and swing voters and once again lead the republican party to another loss. >> yeah, the town hall is actually a perfect microcosm of this phenomenon. the trump team came out beating their chest out they won, they got one over on cnn. the base loves it. okay, maybe the base loves it, but what undecided suburban woman voter is going to take anything from that town hall?

they're saying right now, i'm going to trump -- it's hard to imagine them making that case. it's been longer, maybe, but it's certainly not helping him next year in a general election showdown with president biden. it's still so early. may 2023, there are candidates that have not jumped in the race. not just desantis, but vice president mike pence to get in, tim scott, there are probably lots more others. there's twists to go. and what do we love, the comeback story, he's setting himself up for that. to claire's point he hasn't really been vetted yet. she's still unknown. he could easily get beaten up. his theory of the case has always been i can be the guy who can beat biden. i'm more electable than trump. i bring you the good things about trump without the baggage. and the polls showing, strong pointing to that in iowa.

and staying the narrative and course-correcting. >> we talked about the cnn town hall meeting. it took care of one of biden's problems that we can discussing a couple hours ago on the show, and that is those loyal parts of his basin revved up. what happened after the town hall meeting? a lot of people woke out. jeffrey katzenberger. we talked about how it's a political earthquake, how it happened showing trump's worst side. that wakes up a lot of people that are right now sort of disengaged. >> no doubt about it, donald trump is the gift that keeps giving to joe biden. and i think that ron desantis has to be careful that in trying to out-trump trump, that he does not start offending some the

independent voters, for example, what are his positions that he's doing with disney. what he's doing in terms of women's right to choose. and with migrants. and now getting into the case of jordan neely in new york, the subway victim. raising money, endorsing, raising money. he cannot make himself more unpalpable than donald trump is by trying to out-trump trump. all of that, i think, helps biden. in many ways, energizes some of the voters. in a couple of hours, with the polls showing some of the black voters felt less than enthused. they can create that enthusiasm and energy by taking shots like banning books in florida on black studies. and like i said, this case that's going on in new york. they can wake up a base that says, oh, well, i don't know if i'm energized enough but i

certainly need to not have these guys in. and i think trump certainly does that. and i think desantis is flirting with fire himself, someone who some of the things he's doing in floor and putting his toe in the water in new york and other places. >> you know, we already saw, a couple weeks ago what he said about ukraine, calling it a regional conflict. and a border dispute that a lot of his donors pushed back really hard. a lot of his supporters pushed back hard. and he tried to correct himself. so, again, he needs to be careful not to try to out-trump trump, because right now, there are millions of voters that want an alternative lane, a more moderate to conservative lane, where they can support somebody that right now that lane, obviously, just not there. now, this morning, speaking of ukraine, we've been digging into an extraordinary offer by the head of russia's mercenary

force s, the wagner group, giving up positions. "washington post" reports, if ukraine commanders withdrew their soldiers from the area around bakhmut, he could give kyiv information on russian troop positions which ukraine could use to attack them. we're live outside of 10 downing streeting in london, nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons. kier, first of all, we're going to set your location, explain what's going on. good news for kyiv over the weekend that germany was stepping up, $3 billion pledge. that's going to double the amount of support that germany is offering the embattled government and ukraine. now, the prime minister is going to the same thing, offering more military assistance.

tell us about it. >> reporter: yeah, that's exactly right, joe, president zelenskyy meeting with the british prime minister, not here at downing street but a country house at chequers. is it does tell you something about the europeans that president zelenskyy has do go to berlin and paris and london and rome to achieve what he wants. to achieve. were but he does appear to be achieving a lot. and the british prime minister describing it as a crucial moment right now. i think here's what that really means. you're seeing those european partners of ukraine doubling down on that policy of arming ukraine to try to take back territory. but at the same time, you are seeing diplomats including chinese diplomats touring europe. this morning, president zelenskyy flying into the uk, a warm welcome from the british prime minister at a country homemade famous by churchill. back home in ukraine, waves of air and artillery attacks left

dozens dead and injured. but the ukrainians also say they've shut down multiple russian drones. and russia reports two crucial military commanders are dead, a damaging blow to moscow. around bakhmut, russia's flanks are crumbling, it's front is collapsing. according to the military leader. the ukrainian operation under way, but it is not yet the long awaited spring offensive. that's coming soon, says president zelenskyy meeting with french president macron after securing more military support. and a promise of $3 billion in weapons from germany's prime minister. now is the time to determine the end of this war, this year, he says, this year, we can make the aggressor's defeat irreversible. in italy, he visited with the pope who told the ukrainian leader, i'm praying for peace.

but peace seems far off, despite multiple talks on many sides including a chinese enjoy visiting ukraine and russia. last week, u.s. national security adviser jake sullivan met with china's top diplomat in vienna. over the weekend a different diplomacy, europe's annual singing contest, eurovision. last year, a band from the ukraine won the event. but it was held in the uk for security reasons. as they began their performance, russia targeted their hometown. still, ukrainian fans watched and celebrated as the band played on. and, joe, i think it's impossible to underscore enough just how much we don't know what's going to play out in the months ahead. we don't know what conversations, multiple conversations are happening inside rooms like downing street

between diplomats and it's very, very difficult for western journalists to get to the front lines like places like bakhmut. we really don't know what's happening on the front line. again, two crucial questions are going to be, how much can ukraine take back, if it can? and what kind of diplomatic deals. i think they feel the least but not least with the election cycle. >> keir, if you talk to the leaders, of nato countries, if you talk to the top military and diplomatic officials around them, over the last six months, they've been expressing skepticism, some openly, but mainly behind closed doors. that ukraine could actually make significant progress. and were suggesting maybe they just needed to settle for a draw to get to the table in the war.

there seems to be a bit more optimism now, doesn't there, from washington to germany to paris, to london. there seems to be a bit more optimism that this spring offensive may turn into something significant. and i would guess the news this weekend, if the wagner group was willing to give up key russian targets if kyiv would just back off and stop slaughtering wagner group mercenaries. but they talk about that revelation. and perhaps the insight it gives us to how badly things may be going for russia on the front lines right now. >> reporter: well, i think there will inevitably be worries in moscow. and if they're not worrying that would be surprising, wouldn't it? i actually think the air offensive that we see by the russians, to a point, kind of

illustrates the concern for the potential for the spring offensive. so, are there challenges for the russians, to say the least, no doubt about it. again, though, this is a battlefield, you never know what's actually going to happen in the battlefield before it happens. i have been hearing, joe from uk diplomats for some time, the hope that ukraine can be supported to take back territory. but here's, i think, a crucial point to make, they have no choice in europe. i mentioned the chinese in the piece in the beginning here. i think we shouldn't underestimate the role that china is likely to take and want to take. but it's unlikely, if and when, inevitably, there there be negotiations, they're going to negotiate over territory, when they sit down, it's likely to be fixed to that point, to some extent. so the ambition among the european countries that support ukraine, again, is to help ukraine gain territory. of course, that has to be the

ambition. there's no question of just hope. i think there's a question that there is no choice for those european countries, and for the fact, the u.s. is supporting ukraine, but to try to push on, if you like. because this can't go on forever. just politically speaking, just in terms of what's happening there in the u.s. and the questions of funding and all of those things. just the truism of war, too. it can't go on forever. so, again, these next six months are going to be absolutely crucial. both on the battlefield. and in terms of diplomacy. >> all right, nbc's keir simmons, thank you so much, as always. we appreciate it. now, sources tell nbc news that president biden is going to meeting tomorrow with four congressional leaders to talk about the debt limit. it's going to be the last meeting before biden leaves for the g7 summit for the next eight days. let's bring in nbc international reporter sahil kapoor from

capitol hill. sahil, staffs from biden and house speaker kevin mccarthy met over the weekend. what progress did they make? >> reporter: well, joe, they're running into a familiar dilemma that now looms as the biggest hurdle of resolving the debt crisis between president biden and congressional leaders later this week. specifically, the problem is the question of how you allocate funding between the military and nonmilitary spending. you've got a situation where house republicans in the majority want major cuts but they don't want to cut defense spending. they want to focus the cuts on the nonmilitary. which isn't going to fly with democrats. toms tom cole, the house republican says, domestic priorities are wants and desires but you don't necessarily get everything. then there's senator ben cardin a member of the democratic senate majority told me, quote there is certain parity between defense and nondefense and that's an issue important in our caucus.

it's unclear how this gets resolved, joe. the spending cap is the central piece that house republicans are demanding. that talk about it simple a little spending freeze. avoid the question of whether to cut one slice more than the other. there's a question of maybe a short-term cap you that could do for just a year. some focused you focus on policy. pair it with savings and rogue policies. and take the spending off. or simply not agree on a number which would be a major retreat for house conservatives meanwhile, anxieties are rising about the official ever potential debt default. let's hear what chris murphy had to say on "meet the press" yesterday. >> well, what worries me is that chuck schumer, joe biden, even mitch mcconnell have said if we can't get an agreement in the next few weeks, default is offer the table. the only leader who says we're

going to light the american economy on fire if we can't get an agreement in the next 10 to 14 days is kevin mccarthy and that is deeply worrying to me because there's an opportunity to talk about their really unpopular agenda of cuts and the time to do that is when we're negotiating the budget. >> reporter: and if there is no deal, guys, that potentially catastrophic default could be as least as 2 1/2 weeks away. jonathan, joe. >> nbc's sahil kapur. thank you for your reporting. claire, president biden leaving for japan for the g7. the back half of that trip, to australia and papua new guinea might go away if a deal isn't made. staffers have made a little progress but the main event is tomorrow, when the four big leaders, the president at the white house. the last three has been

contentious. what do you see playing out this week? >> well, i think biden is smart to trying to push and prod mccarthy into actually showing budget numbers. you know, they really did a cowardly thing. what they did is said, oh, we're going to cut stuff, but they didn't say what they're going to cut. and once you say what you're going to cut, then people get upset. and embraced in their proposal is cuts to programs like veterans benefits. like health care. like medicare. medicaid. things that the american public is really not going to support. so if they can at least get mccarthy to say, hey, you want to cut stuff, show us what you're going to cut. before we go any farther. and then i think they're going to end up in a position where they give mccarthy a fig leaf. they maybe do freeze for a year. they maybe do minimal cuts

across the board. but i do think they'll come up with a deal, and i do think they will avoid a default. because i think mccarthy understands the problem he's got if he's the one that lights the economy on fire. >> yeah, i agree with you, claire. i've been through a few of these. you've been through a few of these. they usually -- at the end of the day, the pressure is too strong on them coming from all sides to ever let the united states default. we'll see, though, if that's the case here or not. coming up on "morning joe," republicans in texas appear to be targeting an emerging democratic stronghold in the state with new voting restrictions. it's unbelievable. we're going to talk to an attorney for the most populist county in texas about the apparent gop push to further consolidate the power there. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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♪♪ welcome to "morning joe." it's 8:32 a.m. in dallas, texas. and speaking of texas, republicans there are actually pushing new voting restrictions in the state's most populous county. an a merging democratic stronghold that includes the city of houston. the city highlights how lawmakers are pushing dozens of election bills into a republican-dominated state legislature including limits on polling places. and the mechanism for the state to order new elections if voting problems occur. some county officials tell "the new york times" these election bills do not address legitimate voting issues that have actually arisen in harris county.

with us now the harris county attorney christian menefee. christian, thank you for being with us. talk about the new proposals and threat you think they impose. >> the threat of the bills are clear, it's about republican leaders not being able to win the hearts and finds of people in some of the most diverse parts of texas so they're now taking steps to take that power by force. that's why you see them push laws that would stop vote by mail for folks over 65 and active duty persons and stop countywide voting and force people to vote in a specific location. and most egregiously, that's why you're saying a push to power a person appointed by the state of texas to overturn election results. this is about stacking the deck so they can centralize power in the governor's mansion and

headquarters in the republican party in austin. it's wrong. and people who cast their ballots for local leaders should have their votes respected, not disregarded. >> question, reverend sharpton, with the largest county of black voters in the state, as well as a large latino populist there. i've been talking with others, is it possible to give the justice department to look at it from a civil rights point of view, in terms of investigating? does it disenfranchise voters based on race, as you're also looking at your lawsuit? >> you know, it's an important point to make that each and every one of these laws is by design being aimed at harris county, one of the most diverse counties home to the city of houston. one of the most diverse cities in the entire country with more

than 100 languages spoken. that's exactly why if some of these more egregious bills were to pass, my office is going to file a lawsuit. we see in the past, whatever opportunity we get with the justice department or to partner with advocacy legal groups that bring these lawsuits on a regular basis we're going to do so. this is about protecting the vote for each and every person that lives in harris county. i say this as a blackman who grandfather paid a poll text. and it's really to turn and take these egregious voting policies that are restrictive and are designed to stop people for voting for diverse folks in the biggest county in the state of texas, we're going to do everything we can with the fire power we have legally including add advocacy groups and justice department to push back against this. >> christian, i assume that -- the one part that i noticed of this bill was trying to overturn

the will of the people in heavily populated areas which i assume coincidentally not is those areas that are the most blue parts of texas. that is dallas-fort worth area and the houston area. talk about how this mechanism -- what they're designing here. i mean, are they going to have the ability, if this were to actually become law, and pass legal muster, to then supplant the judgment of the voters in houston, texas and dallas-ft. worth at the ballot box? i don't understand how this would actually work. how would they trigger this power to take over what the voters have done? >> that's exactly what they're attempting to do, overturn the will of the voters. we've seen this from republican losing candidates in harris county. more than 22 election challenges have been filed in harris county to overturn the will of the

voters from november 2022 election. when that happened you saw multiple state officials call for a re-do in harris county. so this bill will do exactly that, it would empower the secretary of state who is official and answering directly to the governor of texas to unilaterally decide to overturn election results in harris county i think if that were to happen that would be electoral chaos. especially you got to think about the single mother who gets off work, who needs to get home to her kids instead makes time to cast they are ballot. you're going to tell her that her vote is not worthy of being counted and respected? they would overturn the election results simply because they disagree with the process or folks running the elections in large counties. that's why i continually say this isn't about making elections better in state of texas. it's about making things more difficult for folks in large metropolitan areas to vote and making it more difficult to run elections. it's about demonizing elections

in large metropolitan areas. people that run these elections they're not just democrats. they're democrat, independent, republican, they take the time out to ensure the democracy works instead, we're seeing a governor, attorney general and state legislator taking their time out to overturn the will of voters. that's why it's so incredibly important that people know what's going on in texas. we know the path of flipping the state of texas comes through harris county. it's important that we protect the votes. >> christian menefee, thank you so much. still ahead, an evangelical leader quotes jesus when asked whether he would support donald trump for fled 2024. we'll have those comments for you straight ahead on "morning joe." if you care about clean air, you should know president biden's infrastructure laws are reducing pollution and creating clean energy jobs.

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i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey for a really long time to find some relief. cosentyx works for me. cosentyx helps real people get real relief from the symptoms of psoriatic arthritis or psoriasis. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. trump continues to attack e. jean carroll, this following a jury's verdict that found the former president liable for sexually abusing and defaming the writer. carroll sued trump over allegations that he raped her in a new york city department store

in the 1990s. and lied about it. trump has denied the allegations. and has appealed the jury's verdict. yesterday, he posted several screen shots on truth social of carroll's old tweets with no context. carroll's posts were all sexual in nature. meanwhile, russell moore the editor-in-chief of "christianity today" spoke about the verdict and the evangelical's community reaction to it. referenced mike pence telling nbc he, quote, never heard or witnessed behavior of that nation from trump. here's what moore had to say about that. >> i'm not sure what's going on in vice president pence's mind at this point. i know it was a shocking moment for me, even after everything that we've seen, and what's primarily shocking is the fact that here we are in a week where a former president of the united

states is found liable for sexual abuse and sexual default and defamation of a woman who survived such abuse and assault. and the country just yawns for the most part. that tells me that something has really, really badly gone awry in this country. >> is there any circumstance you can imagine supporting donald trump? >> well, i can't speak for all evangelicals. i can only speak for myself. and jesus said let your be yes and let's your no be no, i'll let my never be never. >> we see more of that, jonathan lemire, as we move forward. but it's fascinating, mike pence says -- this is all sort of a surprise to him. we should look at mike pence's own comments after the "access hollywood" tape came out when donald trump first was caught on saying on tape that women let him sexually abuse him because he was star.

fast forward eight years he's still saying that. >> mike pence has been extraordinarily differential with these trump issues well i've never seen it with my eyes. there's been reporting that pence's wife thinks very differently about this. the vice president himself, he broke with jump on january 6th, that's been about it. and it is reflective, perhaps, of where the evangelical movement has been with trump. we know that trump has been popular with them, since 2016, unlikely ally, somebody who is multiple divorced who lives in manhattan with his name on it in gold. but there is polling that suggests that his support is eroding, slightly, claire mccaskill, in that group. a very important group in that primary. what's your sense with the e. jean carroll verdict, do we think that others in that faith community might give a second walk away look at trump or do

you think trump has his hold on them in part for those he named to the supreme court? >> well, i think we have to be careful because the evangelical community it's not monolithic. there are a lot of people who would call themselves evangelical who are like the guests on "meet the press." who see trump's moral shortcomings as the end of the road for them, with trump. on the other hand, there are some evangelical leaders and some evangelical church members who are convinced that trump is telling the truth about everything. and, you know, the tween shall meet. and i don't think the trial is going to change those people in that calcified bubble of trump won the election, trump has never done anything wrong, and, by the way, this woman is lying. i will say this, mike pence is just -- i can't figure this guy out. he wants to be the leader of a moral movement in this country. but he can't even say that what

trump has said and done as it relates to women, let's just start with the serial adultery. this is a guy who changes wives like he changes shirts. i mean, there's all kinds of things that trump has done in his life that mike pence ought to be able to condemn at this point. the fact that he can't is judge a character defect of mike pence. and, frankly, it means he'll never be president. >> reverend al, you know, it's interesting, donald trump has been indicted now -- he's been indicted for payoffs to a porn star, he was investigated for payoffs to a "playboy" bunny. he says, admitted on tape that he sexually abuses women because he's say star. and eight years later, he says in his deposition, who knows maybe fortunately, maybe fortunately, stars are able to sexually abuse women.

so if people want to believe donald trump, evangelicals believe as claire said everything that donald trump said, okay, they can believe it because what he's now told us in 2023, you think it may be a good thing, it may be fortunate that stars like him are able to sexually abuse women. >> i think that when you look at the fact, i agree that the evangelical community is not monolithic. but if you erode any part of it, it's a part he's going to need. let's not forget, he sat there and said this is way it's done. that it's been done a million times, grabbing at women, doing thing with women, stars have been doing this for a million years and i'm a star. well, some evangelicals are going to start moving towards somebody that is more like their values, their morals, some

beliefs and theology. let's not forget, donald trump lost the 2016 race popular vote and he was defeated in 2020. he can't afford any erosion of the evangelical vote. and i think that he can have that eroded if you had a candidate against him that would go after him on these points. >> one final thing, rev, you know, the bible tells we're all centers saved by grace. i'm certainly in the center saved by grace. steve a human highlight reel in football. and we joked a human and the re gave grace. here is the thing about donald trump. if evangelicals are looking at this the way they look about it with everybody else, we know

people are saved by grace. donald trump is indicted for paying off a porn star. he never said he was sorry for that. he's never said he was sorry or needed god's forgiveness for bragging about sexually abusing women. he's never said that. in fact, he now says it's fortunate. and, in fact, you go back to 2016, and donald trump said -- again, evangelicals say we're saved by grace. donald trump actually said he never had had to ask god for forgiveness, that he'd never asked god for forgiveness once. anybody that knows about the evangelical faith, that is the centerpiece of christianity. what does donald trump say? no, i've never asked god for forgiveness.

i don't need to. >> without the repentance you have not set yourself up for forgiveness. without acknowleding your sins are sinful and wrong, you don't set yourself up for forgiveness. donald trump said, as you quoted him accurately, i've never asked god to for give me for anything. when he was questioned as this practicing question he was posing to evangelicals, he said all of them, i like all of them, which means he couldn't even quote one scripture off the top of his head. he had to say that he took the whole bible. if he took the whole bible, he left repentance which is all the way through the old and the new testament. >> when asked if he preferred the old testament or the new testament, he said both. we'll be right back with new polling on the debt ceiling battle. right back with new polling on the debt ceiling battle iss.

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jonathan you have an update on the debt ceiling talks. what have you got? >> after encouraging signs over the weekend from the staff level talks, house speaker kevin mccarthy pouring cold water on that. he says the two sides are, quote, far apart. of the white house, he accuses them of postuing and not taking negotiations seriously. he said, quote, seems like they want a default more than a deal. he thinks any agreement would need to be struck by this

weekend in order for there be time for it to pass before the deadline because congress will be out of session for a while. the president is scheduled to leave for asia. tomorrow, a big moment as the president will meek with the speaker and other congressional leaders at the white house. the last one was contentious. >> it was. i agree with claire. i think at the end i think this does get resolved. if it doesn't, the consequences are just too devastating. americans' retirement goes up in smoke. they lose so much of their money. it's going to cost millions of jobs. it's going to turn the economy upside down and it's, of course, going to hurt the united states of america, our full faith and credit. it's important to remember we're not talking about money that's going to be spent in the future. we're talking about money that donald trump and republicans already spent over the past several years. that does it for us this morning. coming up on "morning joe" tomorrow, arnold schwarzenegger

will be our guest. for now, ana cabrera picks up the coverage right after the break. verage right after the break. (♪ music ♪) (♪ ♪) (♪ ♪) where could reinvention take your business? accenture. let there be change.

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