it was incredible. i'll be living that moment for the rest of my life. >> and that wraps up the hour for me. you can reach me on twitter and instagram. you can watch highlights from the show online. thank you for the privilege of your time. ryan nobles picks up with more news right now. >> and right now on "andrea mitchell reports," debt ceiling negotiators from the white house and congress work to find a solution that all sides can agree upon. with the president's trip to japan just days away and a potential default on the horizon. >> i remain optimistic. i really think the desire on their part as well as ours to reach an agreement. i think we'll be able to do it. >> doesn't seem to be what they wanted. it just seems they want to look at their end but they're not, they're not talking anything

serious. >>. >> also this hour, the latest developments from the southern border as homeland security officials report a steady decrease in migrant crossings after days of record setting entries following the elimination of the title 42 policy. >> it is too early but the numbers we have experienced are markedly down over what they were prior to the end of title 42. >> and ron desantis takes center stage in iowa over the weekend making the case against another four years of donald trump while the former president postpones his own iowa rally due to severe weather warnings. >> we must reject the culture of losing that has infected our party in recent years. if we focus the election on the past or other side issues, then i think the democrats are going to beat us again.

>> hello and thank you for joining us. i'm in for andrea in washington where the white house is juggling major foreign policy challenges to begin a critical week. there is cautious optimism among officials over the southern border where illegal entries have fallen 50% in recent days, but the potential for another spike is possible. president biden and speaker mccarthy are looking ahead toward important debt ceiling tomorrow as negotiators from both sides try and find a middle ground that can get through a congress and to avoid a catastrophic financial default on u.s. debt. of course, any debt ceiling solution will allow the president to shift his focus to meetings with g-7 allies in japan this week with key topics including russia's ongoing invasion of ukraine and the rise of china on the agenda. joining me now to talk aboutall of this, kelly o'donnell, peter

baker and dan merica. kelly, the most pressing issue today of course, the president spoke about both the debt ceiling an the border over the weekend. fill us in on what he said. >> certainly, the president has these concerns that are colliding and it comes at a time he is due to be on the world stage. all that puts this under a bright white spotlight. on the debt ceiling, the president articulated optimism saying there's a congenital position he has. we're hearing today from senior white house officials about the national security implications of the debt ceiling discussions because as the president heads to the g-7, that is an important piece of this that the u.s. has to be a reliable partner and that it does pay its bills and that other nations can count on

the u.s. to do what it says it will do. so trying to put that piece of pressure of national security concerns, which might have some sway in the conservative wing that speaker mccarthy has to deal with to make that case. then the ongoing issues with the end of title 42, that covid era policy that has affected the southern border. seeing what the administration has said is sort of the fruits of the preparation they made. at the same time, they acknowledge how difficult the situation is. the president said to expect chaos in the initial days and some of the thinking may be that part of what is slowing this down, the numbers not as great as some anticipated, there may have been some baked in in people's thinking and also a sense that some of the migrants are trying to gauge how would the new position of the u.s. government affect their own concerns. it's not the same as it was during covid.

so that may be a factor. >> so, peter, i think the president called himself a congenital optimist, which i think he thinks is a good thing. but how does this current debt ceiling standoff between the president and mccarthy from what we've seen from presidents like obama and trump, didn't seem as though speaker mccarthy had the same level of optimism when ali vitali caught up with him today. is this a dangerous place for him to be right now? >> in negotiations, you don't have a deal until you have a deal. so you've got to be careful when you express optimism or pessimism. we're still weeks away from the deadline as this treasury department has envisioned it. the moment they can't find other ways of keeping our bills being paid without reaching the debt ceiling. and you rarely see in washington any kind of actual solution these days until you get right up against a deadline when you're looking at that cliff and you're about to fall over it. so i'd be cautious about expecting a breakthrough in a

significant way in this next new days. having said that, the fact the president attributed good faith to the other side this weekend, he said they have a desire to come to a deal is interesting because that's something not, that's not been inconsistent with his messaging before. so we'll see where things go. they're so far apart if they're dealing on the spending stuff. the president of the united states has proposed a deficit reduction over the next decade based mainly on higher taxes. the speaker of the republicans going the opposite direction saying we want to cut back discretionary spending. they're nowhere close to their starting positions, the idea they could come up with a meaningful plan in the next two weeks, really, really hard. >> considering president biden said he wasn't going to negotiate, now they're clearly negotiating. dan, you write in the messager which launches today, congratulations to that. >> thank you. >> about ohio democratic

senator, sherrod brown. he's one who could have a tough time in 2024. how does this impact someone like brown? >> i think if you talk to any campaign, republican or democrat, especially states that don't back their brand of candidate, the uncertainty is the concern. you don't know how this is going to play out. that's one area republicans and democrats may agree on. there are polls that show americans want to raise the debt ceiling. they think it should be done responsibly. but you have no idea as a campaign operative how this is going to play out, whether there's going to be any blowback. and the people who will feel it the most are candidates like brown who are in a state who have moved over time, that have moved over time, away from him. he's a blue island in a red sea, you know. he is one of only the only democrat who's been elected statewide in that state for many

years now. but i will say it is a long time until he will face voters. this is the 2024 election. he says currently he's not focused on his re-election right now. he told me many times, a lot of starts say that. the other note i'll make is voters don't necessarily follow this debt ceiling news as closely as you and i do in washington. i spoke to a number of voters when i was with brown in ohio and they noted way more points about brown's personality from the clothes he was wearing to the way he spoke than they did about policy positions he was taken. that's important. voters, including a voter i spoke to who voted for trump two times and voted for brown, are far more focused on the way brown speaks and what he says and his personality than maybe they are about how he votes on a debt ceiling vote. that's one thing you can read in the messenger. >> you have to wonder will they be thinking about the debt

ceiling in the fall of next year. especially in there isn't a default. this could be a short-term. >> there are going to be so many issues that happen between now and then that will be more relevant. >> before we go, there's an international component to all this. this is the timing not necessarily great for president biden as he heads abroad to japan. what message does this send to international leaders that the united states is dealing with this particular issue right now? >> yeah, kelly alluded to this. the idea that the leader of the largest economy in the world on this international stage with his peers uncertain whether the country is going to go into default. obviously creates complications for him. makes it harder for him to be the leader he wants to be of these countries as they're trying to knit together their economic policies. there are so much tension between the united states and these other members of the g-7 because biden's industrial policy. because of the chips act and inflation reduction act, which

are, create these more buy american protectionist policies that have really wrangled among his top economic allies. there's already this round for tension even without the debt ceiling. >> appreciate it. the number of border crossings since the end of title 42 plummets. what's behind the drop? that's next when "andrea mitchell reports" is back in 60 seconds only on msnbc. mitchell reports" is back in 60 seconds only on msnbc. (seth) not to brag, but i just switched to verizon. (cecily) wow! (seth) and i got to choose the phone i wanted. for free. (cecily) not that you're bragging. (vo) choose the phone you want, on us. during our spring savings event. (cecily) on the network worth bragging about. verizon - double check that. eh, pretty good! (whistles) yeek. not cryin', are ya? let's tighten that. (fabric ripping) ooh. - wait, wh- wh- what was that? - huh? what, that? no, don't worry about that. here we go. - asking the right question can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this?

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humanitarian crisis. miguel almaguer is in san diego with more. >> bus loads of migrants keep arriving in northern cities sent by the governor to areas with more liberal immigration policies amid a political standoff. and in new york, many hotels are being turned into shelters. one couple informed the 37 rooms they booked for their wedding party had to be canceled. >> when we called the manager, she basically informed us that no, we've canceled all the blocks. >> in chicago, they're scrambling to house migrants. >> more people are coming. we just don't know how many. >> joining me now, the deputy director of the immigrants right project at the aclu. what do you believe is driving this drop in crossings and do you think it will hold? >> you know, it's hard to

predict. i think everyone was speculating. people should stop speculating. ultimately, people move from from their countries because of danger. that's the driving force. you know, people don't want to leave their home countries. certainly not with little children. so if they leave, they're in real danger but i think we need to stop looking at how many people we've deterred from coming to the border. that's not the way to judge an asylum. if people are in danger, we can't say don't come. the united states will no longer be a refuge. the biden administration ended title 42, we welcome that, obviously, but it's unfortunate they've replaced it with yet another trump asylum ban. i know the biden administration is trying to say this is not another trump asylum ban, but the truth is, while there's some additional legal pathways, they are very, very limited. we have to create an efficient asylum system, but a fair one.

>> let's talk about that system right now that you and your group is suing the biden administration over because there are new requirements that make migrants book an appointment before reaching a point of entry. the primary way is through an app called cbp1, but there are reports the app is overwhelmed with glitches and there's not enough spots available. is there a better solution to try and fix this problem? >> ultimately, they should try and fix the app to make it better but it cannot be a substitute for regular asylum. just a supplement. people who are in real danger need to be able to get to the border any way they can. they can't wait for weeks an week to get an appointment, to get one of the limited slots. they have to be able to get to the border and apply for asylum. i think you started by saying this is a humanitarian crisis. that's right. these families who are fleeing danger are not the ones bringing fentanyl, they are not national

security threats. they are in danger. united states said after world war ii, we would never send people back to danger without a screening and yet, here we are. this part and parcel of a larger problem that's happened over the years. we had family separation. president trump says if he's elected, he'll bring it back. i can tell you as the lead counsel in the family separation lawsuit, we are still trying to get up to 1,000 families reunited five years later. little children are still not with their parents. we have to have a humane system. we have to make it more efficient, but it has to be humane. can't judge our asylum system by how many people who are in danger we deter from even coming to the united states. >> let's talk more about what that point you made about the former president and what he said in his town hall last week about not ruling out bringing back family separation. you know, you were the lead counsel in that case. i think you mentioned that. that ended the policy. five years out, there are still hundreds of children that are

still not reunited with their parents. we have some of the stats here. at least 3900 children removed from their families between 2017 and 2021. almost 3,000 reunited as of march. what is your take about how to fix this issue that even though the policy may have changed, the kind of the remnants of this policy are still, there are still serious impacts as a result. >> you're exactly right. and the remnants are twofold. one is there are maybe up to 1,000 children who are still not with their parents. remember, some of these children were just babies and toddlers when they were taken away. the second problem is that even when they're reunited, the trauma is still lasting. we have children who just stare out the window looking at when they're going to come and take them. or ask their parents when i go to sleep, are men going to take me away again. so we are working with the biden administration to try and get these families reunited.

we need to do everything possible to push for a quicker reunification to make sure there's holistic relief for these families, including monetary restitution for what we know was a deliberate policy intended to be cruel. the biden administration said they were going to fix this. that it was criminal, a moral stain on the country. the public needs to know it's still not fixed and to push the biden administration in that direction. >> the former president seemed to double down on that policy in the town hall earlier this week. appreciate you being here. field of dreams. florida governor desantis in iowa for a test run of his impending presidential campaign and taking a not so veiled shot at the republican front-runner. this is "andrea mitchell reports" and it's only on msnbc. .

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florida governor ron desantis is preparing to make his campaign official in the next two weeks. he was center stage with iowa republicans over the weekend after tornado warnings forced donald trump to cancel his rally in des moines. the governor took several digs at the former president without mentioning his name. >> we must reject the culture of losing that has infected our party in recent years. the time for excuses is over. governing is not about entertaining. governing is not about building a brand or talking on social

media and virtue signaling. it's ultimately about winning and about producing results. >> joining me now to talk about this, nbc news correspondent, vaughn hillyard, kimberly atkins store and david jolly. vaughn, it appears the governor test drove this message of a culture of losing without saying donald trump's name over the weekend and he's decided to fully employ it. accuse the republican party of what he said was a culture of losing. testing his retail politics in iowa. a lot of people think that's not his strength. talking about shaking hands with people. >> he's got to prove everybody wrong otherwise and iowa republicans telling me that's how he's going to win. showing up at the barbecue shop in des moines just minutes from where trump was supposed to

holding his mega rally. donald trump's plane was grounded in florida because of a tornado watch, but if you're in the desantis camp, he got there the day before and drove to the relevant towns. that is what i'm told it's going to take. much like ted cruise visited all 99 counties in the 2016 when he beat trump here. is that going to be good enough? donald trump instead of flying to iowa, he called in to a christian nationalist conspiracy theory conference hosted by the likes of michael flynn. the reawaken tour in which he placed a phone call to that crowd of folks here and these are the types of loyalists that he has attempted to placate over the course of the last 28 months and that he's looking to hold on to. >> i want you to listen what to chris sununu had to say about

trump to jen psaki over the weekend. >> you don't have to beat donald trump on policy. the guy has massive insecurities, he's a loser and lost many times. >> you think the best argument is he's a loser? >> yes, because he can't win. >> we're hearing this theme come up over and over. despite that, mr. trump is pulling ahead of desantis. what's it going to take for desantis to gain ground as he prepare to jump in? >> trump polling about 40 points ahead of desantis. listen, this narrative of being a loser might be correct but that's a dangerous narrative in republican politics because when donald trump gets the microphone, he'll say i was the president who gave you the supreme court that overruled roe, i gave you tax cuts and dlired white nationalism to the party so don't call me a loser. desantis hasn't proved he can take a punch. he is gobbling up the, i won't

call it the never trump constituency, but those who want to get after trump. the disaffected republicans. desantis has not proven what is the contrast that allows him to get trump voters. those are the voters that remain trump's party. desantis' strategy is a delegate slog. can he beat trump in the delegate gang? >> "the washington post" also reporting governor desantis signing a bill that bars state colleges from spending money on diversity, equity, and inclusion programs and limits how race can be discussed in many courses. this is just one example of numerous bills that governor has pushed through in what is described as an anti-woke crew crusade. >> yes, i think that's exactly what this is.

desantis is trying to become the new standard bearer of this maga wing of the republican party which seems to be growing. he's also trying to show, it seems, that he can play the same sort of culture war politics that donald trump is known for. and instituting his own policies. these policies you see them across the board. they're meant to back up this idea that wokism is a threat to americans and lgbtq community members are people to be feared. it's repulsive, but it has been showing success among republicans in recent years. so he's trying to set himself apart from trump while at the same time, trying to become the newer version. a trump 2.0 so to speak. >> and there is some danger in this for donald trump, right? because abortion in particular is an issue that is putting republicans on defense and donald trump today again refusing to say whether or not he agrees with florida's

six-week abortion ban, which desantis signed into law. pretty popular with the republican base, but could be difficult for a general election candidate. how has trump managed this issue? >> this isn't the first time that the former president has indicated some of these bans might be going too far. he's expressed concern about some of the fallout after the dobbs opinion even though he does victory laps about putting the justices on the court. it's because the politics of abortion have become very fraught since that opinion, but desantis has jumped in with both feet thinking that the winning side is to push farther and farther on this to try to lock down particularly the evangelicals that back donald trump and should help form his coalition of support that led him to victory in 2016. this is fraught. also an opportunity for donald trump to take a swipe at

desantis. he doesn't like the attention he's getting. >> thank you all. appreciate you being here. european tour. the ukrainian president visits key capitals gathering support for his fight against putin's forces. this is "andrea mitchell reports" only on msnbc. forces this is "andrea mitchell reports" only on msnbc (seth) not to brag, but i just switched to verizon. (cecily) wow! (seth) and i got to choose the phone i wanted. for free. (cecily) not that you're bragging. (vo) choose the phone you want, on us. during our spring savings event. (cecily) on the network worth bragging about. verizon type 2 diabetes? discover the power of 3 in the ozempic® tri-zone. ♪ (oh, oh, oh, ozempic®!) ♪ in my ozempic® tri-zone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. ozempic® provides powerful a1c reduction. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also

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minister securing new military aid. his office saying new equipment for ukraine would include hundreds of long range attack drones. last week, britain sent kyiv long range precision missiles. it's the latest stop on zelenskyy's weekend european tour as he try to secure support from the u.k., france, and germany ahead of his military's long awaited spring offensive. in italy, he visited the pope, who told the ukrainian leader he is praying for peace. ellison barber is in kyiv and joins us live. in the last few minutes, there's been a message delivered by the ukrainian president about his trip throughout europe. what is zelenskyy saying about his talks with these leaders? >> reporter: he called the last three days long days but he says our soldiers are getting stronger, much stronger. in a statement he's released on telegram, he says italy,

germany, france, great britain, i'm coming home with new defense packages, more new powerful weapons for the front, more protection for our people, more political support. there was a massive aid package that germany says they will be giving. the largest they have offered to give, worth about 3 billion u.s. dollars. promises for more equipment, more weapons from the u.k. as well as promises for armored vehicles and other things from france. one thing zelenskyy was advocating for on these trips were advanced fighter jets. that's something the west seems hesitant to give but he is coming back with a lot of promise from these western allies. in ukraine, the fighting really hasn't shifted one way or the other. the heaviest fighting is still on the eastern front around bakhmut, but what we have seen in recent days are some positions ukraine had. for the first time really in about nine months, they have made for them, fairly

significant territorial gains there. they have been able to push back russian forces by about 1.2 miles. on top of that, a deputy defense minister said they were able to take about ten positions in bakhmut. russian forces still control about 90% of that city, but because we have not seen ukraine make really any substantial, successful offensive gains here, this has been particularly significant and military leaders are saying just that. this is a bit of a shift. this is a change. they're pleased with some of the progress they're seeing there. the city of bakhmut, it has according to military analysts, fairly low strategic value, but ukrainian military officials say this city has become important for russia and they say on their end, they see it as very valuable because one, they've been able to prevent russian forces from increasing the front line for the last nine months and they've been able to deplete the weapons supply of their

enemy by engaging in the fight and finally, they say they're starting to see movement where russian forces are retreating and they have gained back some territory. one of the things zelenskyy's talked about a lot about he advocated for this is wanting european allies to support ukraine's peace proposal. a ten-point peace plan that include what is you want to see if there's going to be peace, all of the occupied or annexed territories returned to ukraine. we're on day 446 of the full scale invasion and in terms of peace, it seems like it's a very long away way. even though zelenskyy has had what in ukraine's eyes are a very successful three days getting support from allies, there's still heavy fighting on the ground and no sign of peace. >> ellison, thank you. leak documents obtained by "the washington post" show the head of the russian mercenary

group, the wagner group, offered to give ukraine information about russian troop movements in change for ukrainian military drawback in the beleaguered city of bakhmut. the post reporting that the owner conveyed that proposal to his contacts in ukraine's military intelligence according to secret u.s. intelligence documents leaked on discord. nbc news has not confirmed this reporting, but joining me now is shane harris. the national security correspondent for the "washington post" and he co-wrote this story. so, shane, reuters also reporting that the chief and spokesman with calling your story, quote, a hoax. what is your response? >> our story is based on classified u.s. intelligence documents so i think their critique is probably more directed at that. we're showing these extensive communication that is the wagner group has had with ukraine are

both known to u.s. intelligence and we independently confirmed them with ukrainian sources. so those contacts we're confident are real, perhaps not surprising. notably, he did not address whether the central claim was true, which is that he offered to give out russian troop locations in exchange for a pullback of forces in bakhmut where his forces are taking casualties by the thousands and have for some time. >> the wagner chief has been feuding with commanders for a bit now, specifically about allegedly failing to provide his forces with equipment. but how is what's reported in these leaks going to play with the russian president putin? >> that's not entirely clear. there are some officials we talk to who cautioned that he may be playing even sort of a head game here with the ukrainians, who seem to believe that putin might actually know that he is in contact with them.

but i think it's reasonable to presume if putin did not know he was making this offer, he would not be pleased about that. of course, he has publicly feuded with the ministry of defense over the support they've given him, but he's a close kremlin ally and the close ally of putin. people know him as putin's chef because he owns a series of catering companies. this is a pretty extraordinary claim. again, it's not one he has addressed other than to say all of the reporting is fake. but the reporting is coming from u.s. intelligence communications intercepts. >> not too many trustworthy actors involved in this back and forth. what else did your team learn from these documents? >> well, what i think is so extraordinary is that the u.s. government really does have a pretty keen understanding of a lot of what's going on inside the russian military apparatus. it clearly have been able to

penetrate a lot of russian communications and they are monitoring communications as well. it seems from these documents, the way that the u.s. government found out about these contacts was by monitoring the ukrainian end of that conversation. although there are indications that concede the wagner group of it, too. it's a pretty remarkable window into how deeply the u.s. has penetrated some of these communications which really provides a rich understanding of what they know about the war in ukraine and how it's playing out. >> excellent reporting from you and your team, shane. thank you so much for being here. appreciate it. >> thanks. and down to the wire. turkey's strong man president forced into a runoff election after failing to secure a win in his country's elections this weekend. what it means from the nato alliance and democracy ahead. this is "andrea mitchell reports." only on msnbc. ports. only on msnbc. that you're bragg. (vo) choose the phone you want, on us. during our spring savings event.

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♪ ♪ get 2.9% apr for 36 months plus $1,500 purchase allowance on an xt5 and xt6 when you finance through cadillac financial. ♪ turkey's presidential race is heading to a runoff after incumbent president erdogan fell short of getting the 50% of the vote needed to win in the first round. the runoff election will determine whether the nato country remains under his grip or turn to a more democratic course promised by his main rival. raf, how is erdogan managed to keep control of his county

country for 20 years without having faced a serious challenge up to this point? >> he is a long time authoritarian leader and enjoys a lot of advantages autocrats have. the media is some would say slavishly loyal to erdogan. it's difficult for his opponent to get on the media. he's been able to use some instruments of state, like police, to make it more difficult for opponent to campaign. but he is genuinely popular among his conservative base. he was elected in 2003 as a reformer. he did a lot to loosen turkey's very, very tight secular laws, to allow people to sort of profess their faith in public. he also invested a lot in the country's infrastructure. he really boosted turkey's position on the world stage. his popularity has taken a hit in recent years because of ram plant inflation that has

devastated the middle class. he was trailing going into the elections first round last night but came out on top with about 49.5% of the vote. his challenger trailing behind on about 45% of the vote. because neither of them got more than 50%, this election is now heading to a runoff on may 28th. viewers may be wondering given erdogan's authoritarian status, is this legitimate? they're not alleging there was voter fraud and we heard from international observers, they are not alleging voter fraud either. we'll see what happens over the next two weeks. there was a third party candidate in this election who has now been eliminated going into the second round. he won about 5% of the vote. he may be something of a king maker going into this next stage. he's a hyper nationalist. he has said he's open to

endorsing the opposition but only if they agree to crack down on the country's kurdish minority and do more to get syrian refugees out of the country. the stakes here are high for the nato alliance. also, turkey is a member of nato, but that relationship has been difficult. it has been strained. erdogan has lashed out at president biden on the campaign trail. he is holding up sweden's membership of nato and -- has said if he is elected, he'll look to take a more conciliatory path. >> thank you. appreciate it. tar heel test. north carolina's democratic governor vetoes strong abortion legislation setting up a challenge for the state's gop controlled general assembly. this is "andrea mitchell reports" only on msnbc. is "andl reports" only on msnbc (seth) not to brag, but i just switched to verizon. (cecily) wow! (seth) and i got to choose the phone i wanted. for free. (cecily) not that you're bragging. (vo) choose the phone you want, on us. during our spring savings event.

(cecily) on the network worth bragging about. verizon from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+

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over the weekend north carolina's democratic governor vetoed a bill that would have banned nearly all abortions after 12 weeks of pregnancy, setting up a revee by the republican legislature. governor roy cooper addressed abortion rights supporters in raleigh on saturday. >> standing in the way of progress right now is this republican supermajority legislature that only took 48 hours to turn the clock back 50

years on women's health. joining me to talk about this, nbc news washington correspondent yamiche alcindor and former republican governor of north carolina, pat mccrory. yamiche, what does this mean in practical terms and how likely is it that the republican legislature will indeed over ride the governor's veto? >> if nothing changes, it's pretty likely that the republicans, who have a supermajority, thin supermajority, but a supermajority nonetheless in north carolina will be able to over ride the democratic governor's veto and pass this. that's why you see roy cooper barnstorming the state and trying to mobilize people to try to push one republican, either in the house or the senate to change their mind in order to stop this bill. this is being complicated by a factor which we haven't talked about which is that a democratic, tracy cotham who was a democrat, vocal supporter of

abortion rights, she switched her position and became a republican, stunning her party, her staffers. people are angry at her. she's now saying she supports this 12-week abortion ban. she is in a new camp here. we should also note that public opinion at least for now is not on the republican side. there was a poll in february that found 57% of respondents were backing the current 20-week abortion ban. they didn't want to see it get expanded. republicans have the power here. this is the world we're living in post roe v. wade being overturned. you're seeing red states and purple states like north carolina move and have more restrictions on abortion. now you see this reality coming to pass. it's going to be possibly -- more likely going to be coming to pass in north carolina. >> governor, you did sign abortion restrictions into law when you were in the chair. now this could be a 12-week ban that could be in place in north carolina. why is the republican party

there pushing restrictions when the majority of americans and, as ya yamiche points out, the majority of north carolinians think abortion should be legal in some form? >> you have to remember that when republicans run in primaries, like democrats fill in primaries, they fill out absolute surveys that say i'm either against or in favor of abortion in all circumstances. to the republican legislatures typically in gerrymandered district more worried about the right primary, they feel like they've compromised. they're not doing as strict as other states, outlawing it altogether or going to six weeks. they were forced to compromise to 12 weeks which is one of the more liberal states with a republican majority at this time. the governor, though, is saying that is still very extreme because he filled out similar surveys when he ran for political office as attorney general and governor, and he's going no exceptions, pro-choice

all the way. we're going to keep it at 20 weeks. that is the situation, and i agree with the assessment. most likely the veto will be overridden. it's primarily because the primary voters are controlling this debate in both the democratic and republican party where most surveys show the american people and north carolina citizens are somewhere in the middle. the question is what is the middle? is it 12, 15 or 20 weeks? >> are you worried it abortion could be a losing argument for republicans in a state like north carolina that's more purple than red? >> i think at this point in time republicans are on their heels on this issue, similar to roe v. wade when they put the democrats on their heels. whoever is in the position of making the ultimate decision which satisfies no one, that party is on their heels. again, the republicans in north carolina actually think this is

a compromise where the democrats are going to say this is extreme. it will be interesting how the people respond to this in the 24 governors elections where you have very strong opinionated people running for office on the issue of abortion. >> it could be a swing state in the presidential race as well. governor, the business community in raleigh spoke out against the abortion ben. one is ashley christian san. >> abortion bans are bad for business. we're asking state lawmakers to help us keep north carolina best for business by maintaining access to abortion in north carolina and sustaining governor cooper's veto. the economic losses from existing abortion restrictions including labor force impact and earnings already cost state economies across the nation an estimated $105 billion annually.

>> governor, i need you to be quick, but you're a pro business governor. do restrictions like this hurt business? >> you know, lately the business community is trying to avoid all social issues. the large corporate people are rather remaining silent compared to seven, eight years ago on other social issues. it's kind of interesting, the major corporations are staying silent. >> okay. thanks so much. yamiche alcindor and former governor pat mccrory. we should mention that katy tur will speak with north carolina governor roy cooper today at 3:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. that does it for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." andrea will be back tomorrow. remember to follow the show online and on facebook and on twitter @mitchellreports. "chris jansing reports" starts right now. good day. i'm chrisan